The Ex Appeal Podcast
Host Miriam Katz interviews every person she has ever been romantic with on any level, from a 5th grade pizza date to an orthodox rabbi to a stripper she once hooked up with. Every. Single. Person.
The Ex Appeal Podcast
"You Needed Something To Fixate On" – Dating in the 5th Grade
Miriam Katz talks to Christian about their first date in the 5th grade. It's adorable. They talk about the difference between boys and girls during adolescence, extroversion vs. introversion, being ready or not ready for romance at that age, and generally wipe away the cobwebs from a pivotal early memory for both of them. Miriam also then interviews her good friend, comedian Toni Nagy, about her memory of the host’s “raw sexuality” in the 5th grade. A nostalgic one.
Audio engineering by Jeremy Emery and Lamps Lampanella
Theme song melody and vocals by Miriam Katz, instrumentals by Jon Steinmeier
Logo designed by Anna Nguyen and Ryn Davis
Photo by Dana Patrick
Hi, thank you so much for listening to the X appeal podcast. I am still your host, Miriam Katz. Today, today we're gonna go back in time and talk to my very first date ever in the fifth grade. It took me a while to track down Christian. I got in touch with a bunch of people that we went to fifth grade with and finally found out the name of the law firm he works at. And he was down. So cool. And what's funny, and we talk about it in the episode, is that he and I truly never spoke before, during, or after the date because we just didn't know how. But so sweet, so cool. And this is very special to actually connect with him and find out that he's awesome. Right after this conversation, I'm gonna talk to my friend Tony Naj, who is a very funny comedian, and she was in our class. And Tony was a witness to the whole experience of the date with Christian and Christian mania, as it were. She has some very funny things to say about the quote, raw sexuality that I brought to our fifth grade class. I'm really glad you're here, and let's get nostalgic. You like me too much. I liked you too much. You weren't in love, you like me too much.
SPEAKER_02:Go there. Professional.
SPEAKER_05:I know, I'm playing grown-up today. I'm sitting in my garage. Whoa, your garage is cool. Okay, Christian. So how are you doing? What's up?
SPEAKER_03:Uh, doing very well. Doing very well. I'm I'm interested to hear your recollections and compare them to mine. I know totally. All I know is uh the the broad subject. So yes.
SPEAKER_05:Well, what do you remember from us going on a pizza date in the fifth grade?
SPEAKER_03:Well, uh, it was definitely the first date that I had ever been on. That's for sure.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, fifth grade's early.
SPEAKER_03:You know, my recollection is that it might have been the first date of anyone in the grade. Yes, I think that's true. And it was a big deal. I mean, it it I remember it well to this day. Certainly like a formative memory, not something that I have to like dig up. I mean, I I remember it. I think my recollection is that maybe I was on the swings. Whoa. When you asked me. Wow.
SPEAKER_05:First of all, oh, certainly I asked.
SPEAKER_03:You asked me. Yeah. I mean, I was probably a decade off for being emotionally ready to do something like go on a date. And uh yeah, I my recollection is being on the swings, and that you but maybe you have a different recollection of that.
SPEAKER_05:That part I don't remember at all.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Do you do you remember whether you knew that it was going to happen? Because I feel like sometimes in like fifth and sixth grade, there's like 10 people tell you that somebody likes them before the asking out happens and there's like notes passed and whatever. Do you know that? Do you know if you knew that I liked you or knew that I was about to ask you out?
SPEAKER_03:I I mean, I think that sounds familiar. Okay. Yeah. I think that there's like multiple channels of communication that occur in fifth grade before the sort of asking happens. Yes.
SPEAKER_05:Uh you are on the swings, is like amazing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, that's like as innocent as it gets.
SPEAKER_03:It's not even like four square. I mean, that's amazing. No, no, straight up swings. Oh my god. Yeah. So and it was Armando's.
SPEAKER_05:No, no, wait, but do you remember what I said? No. I probably said, Will you go out with me? Yeah. I'm assuming.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_05:And then, okay. Do you remember anything else about the ask out? Because I didn't even remember the swings.
SPEAKER_03:I I, you know, to be honest, I don't. Yeah, that's I mean, that's a ton. Yeah. I I remember uh being excited about the prospect. I think this was very, very exciting. As I just said, I don't think that I was, you know, I don't even know that I was necessarily into the notion of dating someone or like boy-girl relationships. But I think that it was just exciting to have someone want to hang out with you, you know?
SPEAKER_05:Yes, totally.
SPEAKER_03:Totally. I think that that's how innocent that was. That it that it was it was just a neat feeling to have someone be like, oh, I want to do that thing with you.
SPEAKER_05:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:So uh do you remember?
SPEAKER_05:I mean, I also want to talk specifically about Armando's, but do you remember there was definitely a frenzy around you? Did you did you start in fifth grade? I started in fifth grade. Okay. So you and I kind of remember this being like a couple of months into fifth grade.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. Fall. Definitely fall, maybe mid-fall. Maybe we'd been there for six weeks or or even you know, two months or something. Wow. Um, yeah, no, I I I remember that because it was kind of a roll-womin. You know, I I grew up in the suburbs in in Wellesley, and um Cambridge was a whole new world. And I gone to, you know, local public school in Wellesley, where I rode my bike there with my buddies every day. We moved to Cambridge, you know, I think my parents just had this sudden realization that they didn't want to spend their entire adult lives in the suburbs. And we moved to this. I don't know if you ever, did you ever come to our house? No, where was it? Well, we lived in a high rise. It was like one of the only high rises. We lived up in the 20th story of a high rise. Wow. So that was like a that was a that was a big physical change and it was a big emotional change. And so I definitely remember that. And I I remember my my feeling was that the girls at BDBN were absolutely rabid. I actually I have a recollection. I have a recollection of my dad dropping me off and there being like a group of girls at the fence waiting. And my dad being like, what the fuck is going on? Oh my goodness, like a couple weeks. And I I think that part of the the element was that I don't know, did you when did you start at BBN? Fourth. Oh, all right. So you're fairly new to the scene. I think a lot of kids have been there for a while.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, yeah, for sure. No, I was I came in fourth with Josh Wortliebe, and we were the only two new kids. Uh and you get attention.
SPEAKER_03:Jason and I were the only two kids.
SPEAKER_05:I remember Jason Fucker, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, no, definitely. BBN, there were not there were not a lot of openings year to year. I think that there was just an element of sort of fresh meat.
SPEAKER_05:There was a couple things. There was definitely fresh meat, but you also had an iconic haircut. I had an iconic haircut. Like oh man. Do you remember where you got your haircut?
SPEAKER_03:Uh I you know where I think I got my haircut is I think I got my haircut. Oh where my mom got her haircut. So like at a real at a real salon, not like at supercuts. Yeah, at like a swanky ass salon. And my mom would sit and then I would go.
SPEAKER_05:If we could describe it, you were blonde and you had like a kind of skater haircut, like a little shaved in the back, and then it swooped down.
SPEAKER_03:A little bit, yeah. It was a little bit. There was the there were like bowl cut elements to it. I I'm not ignoring you here. I'm actually looking because my son has the same haircut.
SPEAKER_05:Oh my god. Gotta see it.
SPEAKER_03:Totally just coincidentally. I don't know if it's the same, but it's it's pretty I think it was part in the side.
SPEAKER_05:It could have been part in the middle, but there was definitely like some swoopiness and blonde. And I think it was very like Ricky Schroeder.
SPEAKER_03:The vestiges of the uh cowlic there that gave you the swoop. Yes, yes, yeah. The swoop. And it was, it was my hair was was much lighter then. And uh yeah. So I I think that that was that was part of the um I'll look another talk. I'm sorry, I'm not spending my time doing that. I think that that was part of the context of it was this um environment that was a little bit supercharged at that time. You know, I told you I got I don't know if it was before or after, it might have been after. Uh Annie Fishman might have been stepping up on you. Yeah. Not sure if you knew this.
SPEAKER_05:I did not know this.
SPEAKER_03:We might need to send her a communication about this. Well, I'm inflamed because you are mine. You should be. She sent me a note and it was crumpled about, um, folded over about six ways. I think that maybe the most you're able to fold a piece of paper is eight, and this was like six. Nice. Yeah. And it's said in pencil, Christian, a lot of girls really like you, and so do I. Annie.
SPEAKER_05:And that was the whole note. Annie, heart, Annie.
SPEAKER_03:I don't know. I don't know if it was a heart or not.
SPEAKER_05:I don't know if you know this. I mean, it's incredible. And did you end up going out with Annie? No.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_05:No, because Annie didn't actually go walk up to you at the swings.
SPEAKER_03:You credit where credit is due. That was a bold mood.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, yeah, I was super, super bold. But I also like wore a tie in my school picture in fourth grade. Like, I was just going for it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:I was living life.
SPEAKER_03:That's great. I I mean, I was certainly much more shy kid than that. I don't I would I wouldn't have had the uncomfortable, say, just walking up to you and and asking you that. So I think I was somewhat embarrassed and also somewhat flattered. And as I said, just sort of felt good to just have someone uh express interest in you on some sort of a human level.
SPEAKER_05:So yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And Armando's is really good pizza.
SPEAKER_05:It sure is, yeah. No, I was definitely like very ready to go with adult stuff. Like less, like you said, ready for it romantically. I was just excited to be a grown-up. I mean, I think I was excited to have braces, like anything teenage felt exciting.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Uh and well, and I think that the there's an element of a difference between, I mean, this is fifth grade is the height of I actually I shouldn't say that. It's not the height. It's the beginning of a really big split between the development of girls' voice. Yes. And I probably like seventh grade is the height. And maybe by like freshman or sophomore year, it started the the interests have started to come back a little bit. Yeah. But it probably that probably starts in fifth, you know, has its apogee in setup and you know comes back down by sophomore year. But uh that was not stuff that I was interested in or ready for.
SPEAKER_05:Got it. And I would say, and I know Tony definitely agrees with this, that I was the one who got everybody to like you.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Did you not know that? I don't think I don't know. No, I definitely like I didn't have any awareness of that. I didn't know what what sort of imaginations were going on behind the scene. I was aware that there was something semi-unnatural that was what forces were in play.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I think I like made it a trend and was like, you guys. And you know what's funny is that even Miss Dugas knew about it. Did you know that?
SPEAKER_03:Who? Well, Miss Miss Dugas.
SPEAKER_05:She was our fifth grade teacher. What about Mr. Denny Brown? Oh, did you have Mr. Danny Brown?
SPEAKER_03:I don't know. I think so. You had Miss Doug Brown. I should say this. I definitely had Mr. Denny Brown as a teacher. Was that fun?
SPEAKER_05:Okay, so then you had Mr. Denny Brown and I had Miss Dugas, and Miss Dugas knew that we were all obsessed with you and like talked to us about it.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_05:So it got to the teacher level. Yeah. She was like, you guys need to chill out a little. Like she thought we were getting a little worked up.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah. And I and I think that there was probably an element there of uh that was just a fun thing. And you needed something to fixate that on. Yeah. And I walked into that voice.
SPEAKER_05:And you had a like teen beat Ricky Schroeder haircut.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I had the I had the haircut, and uh it's like stepping on a radic in the leaves. That's so funny. But I, you know, I I maybe had some awareness that that that was occurring, but that was it. And my sister, no, my sister was in eighth grade. Oh. It was enough like sibling crossover. Did you have an older sibling? I have two, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:I didn't know because my sister my sister would have been in your sister's grade. I think she was. What was your sister's name? Was your sister's name Emma? Yeah. Whoa yeah. My sister is Jessica. Wow. Is continues to be Jessica. And then, whoa, okay. And so did your sister know about all of it?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Well, Lucy Burke's sister was in that grade, and you had a sister in that grade, and uh Paul Salt's brother was in the grade. There were there was there was some crossovers. So Emma would sort of say, dude, what's going on at school? I was like, I'm hearing a lot of stuff.
unknown:Oh my God.
SPEAKER_03:You know, and then I'd think, yeah, and then and then she'd like come along for the sport of it to like watch the school drop off. Oh my God. But you know, my my recollection also is that that was maybe uh for like four or five months or something. And then that's yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Well, actually, that was another question, whether it felt weird when it sort of wasn't happening anymore.
SPEAKER_03:No, not really. I don't think so. I don't I don't have I don't have an awareness of that. I mean, I think one thing that was, and maybe it's because that I had sort of bigger fish to fry in that level. I mean, I found those years of DVDN very hard. I ended up I ended up in high school, you know, really finding a great group of guys that I am still seeing and hanging out with and you know, are you know important relationships in my life to this day. Fifth through eighth grade, though, those were hard years. And I think they are for a lot of kids, but you know, we moved, we lived in the city. That that lower school and middle school dynamic was strange. A child psychologist could write volumes about the dynamics that were occurring at that school in in that grade.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I agree. So I felt that way sort of the whole time. That was sort of why I left. Even though I felt like I had tons of friends, there was there was I there was like some meanness, but also just so much competition.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, there was I mean, amongst the guys, there was there was a lot of meanness.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, really? Oh wow.
SPEAKER_03:I wouldn't have really known that. And uh I I I looked in other schools and then decided to stay for freshman year and got it. Yeah. Although, even, I mean, honestly, even um high school, I I look back on my experience there with some mixed emotion. Um I don't look back with you know totally rose rose-colored lenses. I mean, it's still high school. It's still high school, yeah. Yeah. But um, but certainly found my sort of social dynamic. So I think to answer your question, I think I was probably more worried about like just having a buddy to hang out with on a Saturday than I was worried about whether the girls liked me or not. Um I mean, I think at that age too, there was always there was always a little bit of interest. I mean, you're you're yeah, yeah. I, you know, I sort of was thinking about it in advance of this, and um some like anecdotes came up. Like in seventh grade, an eighth-grade girl asked me out. Whoa, who? Uh Warren.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, you know, I remember that name so well, but I can't 100% picture her.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, at that age, she was a woman. Yeah. Oh, I think I do remember her.
SPEAKER_05:Yes. Yeah. Honestly, you saying, you saying she was a woman literally triggered it. Yeah. Yes, I remember who you're talking about. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. She in seventh grade. Wow. He was on a different interstellar plane than I was in terms of her interest in um boy-girl relationships. So yeah, I don't know how I got on that, but I think it I think it was you saying, like, I don't think I had any awareness that like all of a sudden there was no interest from girls anymore or something. Because there was, yes, yeah. There was definitely a period when I started a BJM that was kind of wacky.
SPEAKER_05:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:And and our our first respective first dates, date together was a big part of that.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, the like whirlwind of it. I mean, I think the reason to bring up the Lauren thing is sort of like I actually was curious whether there was some kind of a pattern at some point of like a sort of domineering woman being like, okay, so we're gonna date now.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, the reason I think of it is because, you know, I think in fifth grade, you were you were ready to start going on dates with boys. Like that was something that you were ready for. You wanted to do that thing, you wanted to experience it in a very age-appropriate way. I was very not ready for that. Yeah. And then, you know, seventh grade, I was probably ready to like go on dates, but I was not, you know, really ready for for much more than that. And I certainly wasn't ready to be going to cafe A. Do you remember Cafe A? Of course, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, by high school, we swapped uh or middle school, we'd swapped Armando's, which is probably just too close.
SPEAKER_05:Yes. Well, it was closer to the middle school, but yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, for for Harvard Square. So so the date, the date shifted to Cafe A and then the movie. Oh. Yeah. And I remember being in the movie and I had the balls to put my arm around her. Wow. And then I sat for so long that I got a cramp in my shoulder.
SPEAKER_05:And of course, you can't admit that you have any.
SPEAKER_03:No, but I didn't want to like I'd taken so much courage to get my arm up there that I didn't want to move it. Uh and I was afraid that you even if I like shifted it to just like get a little blood flow or something, it was gonna be awkward. So I left it there for like two hours and 40 minutes.
SPEAKER_06:Oh my god.
SPEAKER_03:Lost all feeling in my arm. And then um after that, I think Lauren realized that I wasn't gonna kiss her and we never would have been out again. Because she was ready to go. I I don't know about that, but she was certainly in a in a different stage than I was, that's for sure. Yeah, and there I think there's some there's some parallel there.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, totally. Did you date anyone in sixth grade?
SPEAKER_03:I don't think so. Not that I recall, okay, to be honest.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I can't remember like who dated Paul, who dated Jason, who dated Josh.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I not that I not that I recall.
SPEAKER_05:Because there was a little like spin the bottle being played. I remember is that at Lucy Burkshouse? At Lucy's and also at school, like in the locker room.
SPEAKER_03:Oh. Yeah. I don't remember that. Yeah. Oh, I do remember pissing my pants in uh sixth grade. Whoa, bummer. Yeah. And having to wear wet pants for the rest of the day. And um hiding my pants in the locker. Wow. Because I mean I had those lockers, which is an unusual situation, I think, for sixth graders. Yeah. We're hiding my piece of pants in there. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_05:It's so funny that that happened after we went on a date.
SPEAKER_03:Until the end of the year.
SPEAKER_05:Oh my god.
unknown:Oh my god.
SPEAKER_04:I was so embarrassed. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_03:I didn't, I mean, there's a little bit more of the story than that. I didn't I did genuinely just not be able to control myself, but uh yeah, the locker room made me think of that.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Okay, so what do you remember about actually hanging out at Armando's?
SPEAKER_03:Well, I remember I believe that it was after school.
SPEAKER_05:So I we had half days on Fridays, so I assume it was that.
SPEAKER_03:That sounds right. Half day, yep. And that we would have met in the school yard.
SPEAKER_04:Oh god, okay.
SPEAKER_03:And I remember walking, I vividly remember walking up there with like 17 kids probably.
SPEAKER_04:Oh my god.
SPEAKER_05:I don't know. It was like the thing. I mean, it was definitely the thing.
SPEAKER_03:I think that was part of me. Kids that followed us up there. And then while we were enjoying our pizza, they were like that.
SPEAKER_05:I do actually kind of remember a crowd. I mean, honestly, I think it maybe also was less that I was like ready to date and more. I kind of liked attention. So part of it was a little bit about like the spectacle. Like I'm sure I kind of loved that everyone was following us.
SPEAKER_03:Yep. Yep.
SPEAKER_05:Did you like it or did it make you uncomfortable?
SPEAKER_03:Uh I you know, I don't remember. Do you remember?
SPEAKER_05:Oh, go ahead.
SPEAKER_03:I would say this. I was not looking for that attention.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_03:That was not, I wanted you also did not become an actress. This is true. This is true. But and and definitely at that age. Uh I didn't want spotlight, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_05:And do you remember if we had a conversation even on the walk?
SPEAKER_03:I mean, I was thinking about that, like, what did we talk about? I don't I don't I don't think that I don't think that any parts of our body got closer than about six inches at any point in the in the date. Uh so I'm pretty sure we didn't hold hands or anything like that. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah. I don't know what we talked about, but I bet we did, right?
SPEAKER_05:I mean, I tend to not really remember the narratives of books. I just remember the feeling of reading them. And so I don't remember specifics, but I think it was awkward.
SPEAKER_03:Uh you know, I don't recall. I don't remember whether it was or not. I I find it hard to believe that it could have been anything but awkward. So I'm sure it, I'm sure it was, right?
SPEAKER_05:I think my general feeling is that we could we didn't know what to talk about. We couldn't really think of things to talk about, which is so funny because it's not like I would have trouble.
SPEAKER_03:Was there an awkward silence?
SPEAKER_05:I don't know about silence. I just I think about I just thought of boys differently. So, like if I was to hang out with any girl in fifth grade and get pizza with them, truly anyone, we would have things to talk about and we would talk. But there was this feeling that like boys are different and they are the other. And they are, but now I could have a conversation with anybody over coffee and yeah, because it because we've all made social adapts adaptations.
SPEAKER_03:But at that age, I mean boys are doers. Oh, we didn't talk, we didn't boys talk about shit at that age. We did stuff together. Oh, that is some conversation that flowed from us doing something together, so be it. But we didn't like we didn't like hang out and chat about something. You went like, oh, like, should we go play baseball? Like, oh, should we go? It didn't have to be sports. I mean, it could be like, oh, should we go to Harvard Square? Like you went and did that. Uh and that's how you connect it was through the doing.
SPEAKER_05:Whoa. I never thought about that because we would have sleepovers and talk for hours. We maybe also maybe would watch a movie or make prank phone calls, but we did a lot of talking.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, well, of course, there was it wasn't too maybe fifth grade was a little bit, but it wasn't too long after that that like serious phone dating started. Did you ever do that? I had a couple relationships where you would just talk on the phone with someone.
SPEAKER_05:No, I I don't know that I did that with people I was dating. I talked on the phone with Brad a lot in fourth grade, but it wasn't romantic. And maybe maybe a little Eric Porcelli.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yeah, Eric Porcelli cheapers. That wouldn't Eric. I actually still keep in touch with Brad a little bit, which is fun. Seems like he's doing great.
SPEAKER_05:Tell him I say hi, and I love talking to him on the phone in sixth in fourth grade.
SPEAKER_03:I will, I will, but no, you're right. Those those weren't, it wasn't Dave Gane, but uh so you're saying you had Lucy Burke and I would spend hours on the phone. In sixth grade? I don't, I can't quite remember. Yeah, yeah. Can't quite remember. I know my sister and I had her on the line, and that was like that felt like kind of a big deal. Then my sister and I would fight over you know who had access to the phone.
SPEAKER_05:I had two sisters, and so we had a line for us, but it was like, I mean, at some point, I my sister was on the phone, and I wanted to be on the phone, or I was on the phone. I don't know. One of us was on the phone and I tried to get it, and she knocked me down and I punched her in the knee and broke my wrist. Like there was like physical fights over the telephone for sure.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that that that sounds about right.
SPEAKER_05:But because talking on the phone for hours was a thing.
SPEAKER_03:I don't want to, yeah. It it wasn't that boys at that age never, you know, communicated using verbal means, but rather I think that the core way that guys connect, or uh my experience was the the core way that guys connected at that age was through the doing. Yeah, got it. And you've been talking on the phone, like if I was gonna talk on the phone for a long time with someone, it would be Jew a girl. Yeah, it might not be a girlfriend, but it would be a girl. Wow. I didn't talk on the phone with Brad for hours.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Wow.
SPEAKER_03:Like did you try to steal guns and roses, you use your illusion one with Brad and got caught.
SPEAKER_05:Whoa, in what grade?
SPEAKER_03:At the coop. That might have been fifth grade.
SPEAKER_05:Wow.
SPEAKER_03:Or sixth grade.
SPEAKER_05:And they called your parents.
SPEAKER_03:Oh yeah. Yep. Going to go on and down the do you remember that? So we were in the tape section and I was going down the escalator and I had the tape in my pocket. I said to Brad, Do you think they have those buzzer things? Oh no. I heard a voice by me go, nope, but they have security guards. Oh no. Oh no. Pick me up, put me on the escalator. And they, I mean, they you know, they cut the whole program down. They read me my my Miranda rights. Of course, they they hadn't arrested me. I don't even know if these guys were deputized to arrest someone. Yeah, but they they did raise, it felt very official. And they called me. I mean, that's terrifying. It's terrifying.
SPEAKER_05:And calling your parents is terrifying. I mean, depend depending on your parents, but my parents being called would have been absolutely horrifying.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah. I I overheard them. I remember my mom saying, Well, he has the resources.
SPEAKER_02:Like, what?
SPEAKER_03:Well, I was not great. And I I don't know if you remember my mom, but she she has a thick English accent. And sort of a tiny little bit of a stone in the mouth thing, pitch accent. So I'm still. And they said, Well, you know, there's a there's the parental advisory. Sometimes if uh the parents don't buy it, you know, the kids steal it. And I, being the manipulative little prick that I was, uh latched onto that. I mean, I'd stole I stole it to be cool. I know, they're giving you an out. I know. I stole it because that's what Brad and I were doing. You know? Yes. Like to to find it. Stealing's exhilarating how we were we were interacting that day. Right, that was your doing. And I and she said, Why didn't you do it? And I said, Well, it had a parental advisory, and I didn't think that you buy it from genius. I don't know about genius, it's pretty jerking it. But anyway, maybe I'm me from the Coon for Life and I've never been back in. Really?
SPEAKER_05:I think you could probably sneak your way back in.
SPEAKER_03:I think at this point I could get in. Yeah. My son might not. They would be like red alert, red alert, he's back.
SPEAKER_05:Red alert, and he is not aged.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, he is not aged. It's Benjamin Button, he's back. He might, I mean, I I I gotta show you a picture for it. He looks so much like me, it's uh oh yeah, it's pretty creepy.
SPEAKER_05:Um, is there anything else that you remember about like I kind of assume we talked like literally about pizza? I don't remember. I don't remember. I mean Do you remember your feeling after? Like, do you were you like that was a success?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, actually, I so I do remember being uncertain. Like, how did that go? Was that up yet? Did I do okay? Did I say the right things? Did I look cool? Definitely remember that.
SPEAKER_05:And did you talk to any of your guy friends about it? What and were your guy friends aware of this thing of all the girls liking you?
SPEAKER_03:You know, honestly, I don't I didn't have at BB and N at that time, I didn't, I barely knew the guys. I thought you were friends with Jason. Yeah, Jason and I connected. That's right. I think that we were both new and we connected. And we stayed. We stated friends all, you know. We were in high school, we were in slightly different circles, but we definitely stayed friends through, you know, we played sports together and and and were friendly through high school. But yeah, I don't recall say this. I don't recall having like a confidant to have choked, you know, to cheat the fat with about it. Did you talk to your sister about it? Oh yeah, my sister and I had talked about that stuff a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And my sister and I had we had a good relationship. We were very much friends. So I would share all that stuff with her.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, we had our moments too, but do you remember anything about that conversation?
SPEAKER_03:Uh, I don't. I don't. But you know, it's interesting, you saying, you know, what did we talk about? I kind of do now remember being very nervous about filling the space. About like, no, what are we supposed to talk about? How does this happen? I have I have I that's bringing some memories back.
SPEAKER_05:Uh yeah, I think it was hard. I mean, I also think we had not had a conversation before that. Well, we never talked about it.
SPEAKER_03:Not one-on-one. We were the same. So it's not like we'd done like the science project together. We were the same class.
SPEAKER_05:Right. And it's not like we that's why I asked you out. I literally just thought you were cute. There was like, I didn't know anything about you. I don't even think I knew that that was part of data.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Oh, that then you might be interested in what the person has to say.
SPEAKER_05:Well, yeah, that that's like a reason to ask somebody out, that there's some kind of a connection that you know each other.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. That's probably what there's some part of our lizard brain that tells us that this is what we should do. And we're and you know, you're attracted to someone because you're attracted to them. You're looking for emotional bonds at that at that stage. There's just something that's totally.
SPEAKER_05:It's certainly primal.
SPEAKER_03:Let's see the other thing goes. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:But it makes sense having never had a conversation that we would not know how to talk.
SPEAKER_03:I uh I think that it was really heightened because we literally had an audience.
SPEAKER_05:Right. There might have even been people like in the booth next to us.
SPEAKER_03:Because that kind of like everybody went to our I have this I have this vague recollection that someone tried to do that and someone else was like, dude, like give them a little space or something. And so there was this is a blossoming romance. There was this polite buffers on if like one booth. But there were, I mean, what how many booths were there in Armando's? Maybe six.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So uh we Elaine and I, my my wife, ended up living, you know, like two blocks from Armando's for 10 years. So Armando's was all over.
SPEAKER_05:Wow, I didn't know you lived in Boston.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. After um went to to school in Colorado and then um lived in Utah for a little bit, lived here in Montana for a little bit, and then went back to Boston for law school. And um we lived in Cambridge on Garden Street.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, what number? I I grew up on I was 24. 24 Garden Street? Oh, really? 140. I was across from the Laundry School of Music.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we were just down the street. Um so Armando's was my like local pizza joint. I didn't know Armando's was stuffing. I'm sure you're not. I thought about that date a lot. Wow. So when you when you reached out to me, I I was like, I wonder if it's about that. Right. Well, also like dig deep into the recesses of my memory and be like, oh my god, that's right. We went on a date. Like I go in Armando and be like, oh my god, do you I remember that? That's so funny.
SPEAKER_05:Well, yeah, it was either going to be that or like, can you give me legal advice?
SPEAKER_03:Uh, I get that a fair bit. Yeah. Might be like it would be pretty random with me. It would be a little random. But sometimes you're sort of flattered that someone has reached out and then you're like, ah, I just really need to have all this.
SPEAKER_05:Um, do you remember us talking in school ever again?
SPEAKER_03:I don't. I don't remember the um the aftermath. Uh as you say, I don't know. I don't remember being uh worried about how it had gone and how I had done.
SPEAKER_05:And I didn't even think about the fact that you didn't have like buds yet.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, not really. I mean, you're right. J Jason and I would hang out. I guess like Brad and I Brad and I hung out a little bit. I don't know what happened. Did we just never go on another date? I don't either.
SPEAKER_05:We definitely didn't go on another date, but I even don't know.
SPEAKER_03:But I don't even think we even ever So technically does that mean we're still double dating?
SPEAKER_05:Yes. Yeah, that's really why I emailed you.
SPEAKER_03:And so does my bizarro common law marriage stating. This is gonna be the start of the summer I'm gonna. So it's definitely my longest relationship. Let me just tell Elaine. Yeah it's gonna be a little hard for her, but I'll I'll let her know she's cool though. Yeah, sure, she's cool with it. Yeah, that our that our She's very cool.
SPEAKER_05:Y'all live in Montana. It's like dreamy. Yeah. Um yeah, I don't remember ever having a conversation again. And that's why when I was when we talked on the phone like a couple weeks ago, I was psyched because I was like, oh, Christian's funny. Like even in your email, but then like on the phone, I was like, oh, cool. Well, you flatter me, but but I just, you know, I mean, I don't know that this is really about like making connections between every single person that I've dated, but it's sort of like, oh, like he's like smart and funny and cool in a way that like I didn't officially get to know, but like there may have also been some inkling of your vibe that I never exactly experienced, but I was kind of like, oh, this is a really cool person.
SPEAKER_03:I don't know that we got there, which is too bad.
SPEAKER_05:I'm saying we didn't get there. I'm saying now I'm like, oh, cool. I'm not like older.
SPEAKER_03:That's sort of too bad that that we couldn't have have found that.
SPEAKER_05:Um, because middle school was not the time for male-female friendships. I even, like I said, I talked on the phone with Brad in fourth grade, but I don't remember having any guy friends in middle school.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, there was certainly a little bit of a feeling of of like it was the enemy or something. Yeah, or just that it was a big deal. It was a big deal. Yeah, maybe that's what it was. Maybe there was like so much made of it that it was very just intimidating or something. But I think that sounds right. I don't remember having, but I remember I mean Lucy and I were kind of buddies. I feel like Tony and I were kind of buddies. We would chat and and then in high school we hung out a lot. Yeah. She's a lot of fun. She is a lot of fun, yeah. Yeah. I've only seen her once since since high school, I think, at Lily L's around.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, yeah. She's so fun. She was just with me all last week. It was great. Yeah. Um, you had mentioned that your daughter is in the fifth grade. Is there some feeling of like remembering fifth grade by seeing how old she is?
SPEAKER_03:A little bit. Yeah, a little bit. Because uh actually a little a little bit of the reverse. A boy had asked her out the other day.
SPEAKER_05:Oh wow.
SPEAKER_03:And this is very and that was that the first time? That was the first time. Yeah, that was the first time. And they haven't, you know, kids in her grade haven't really started talking about that or dating at all in any capacity. But there's sort of murmuries of it. And they have a dance at the end of the year. At the end of the fifth grade, there's a dance that he asked her to the dance at the end of the year.
SPEAKER_05:Oh my god, that's so far away.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, but she said no. Why? Uh she said she wants to go with her friends. You know, I think I think that she just is she is uh genuinely just not interested in that, and she is extremely logical, sort of well thought out kid. And if she's not interested in it, she's just gonna say no. That's impressive. Um yeah, for better, for better or worse.
SPEAKER_05:Well, it's very early.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, you know, there there could be I just mean standing by what you feel instead of feeling pressured and feeling like she ought to. It's cool that she like has an opinion and it's like, no.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. Yeah, no, I I very much respect her for that. And she's very trying to sort of cerebral about that kind of stuff. You know, what what is it that I want out of this? And and if if it's not, you know, something apparent, then she's not gonna be interested. Um I can advance for the sake of dancing.
SPEAKER_05:Did you feel like that? I mean, you were saying that you sort of were like having trouble because you wanted friends and stuff, but did that kind of frenzy around you give you some confidence or make you feel even a little cocky?
SPEAKER_03:Um Yeah no, I can't quite remember, to be honest. I mean, I think probably to some extent. I think also to some extent that's just hardwired into some boys, into a lot of boys. Cockiness or confidence? Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Even if it's oh, so you already were confident. Even if it's not well placed. But you're saying you were pretty confident. Yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_03:I think so. That's interesting that you were shy and confident. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know that I was shy. I think that I was I wasn't necessarily interested in uh being the focus of attention. So that that definitely made me uncomfortable as a kid. But you know, I think as as kids too, you you you can live in this duality. I mean uh within the same kid, within the same period of time, I think that there was brimming confidence that even may not have been entirely well placed, and you know, desperate insecurity about finding a group and finding your way and you know, figuring out who you are and stuff. And the crazy thing about us as humans is that we just we just manage those two things. And they just coexist in our brand. They don't it doesn't it doesn't look like any like paradox to us, it just is how it is. And I think that's how it was for me at that age. I think that I had great confidence, you know, and literally at the same time, great and security. Yeah. Not that it was like you could like flip back and forth or something, but but that these two things can just exist.
SPEAKER_05:I do have a question that makes more sense for somebody that I dated later in life or more extensively, but can you make a generalization about the types of relationships that you've had since is a funny thing because it's truly like all. But even that thing of like the Lauren like like domineering thing or anything, that's you know, I don't know.
SPEAKER_03:Or go listen to this, and she's gonna be like I know.
SPEAKER_05:No, we love her. I mean, I remember her being very beautiful. Um, but yes, is there any, or even separately from the fact that we went on a date, is there something you can say broadly about like the feeling, the tenor, the vibe of your relationships?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I don't know. I don't know that I have dated many women who are perhaps as uh interested in the limelight. Or and I don't know, I'm not, I don't, I want to be careful not to cast you in two broad strokes, but but you have said, you know, you you alluded it to being an actress and enjoying that, you know, that that is that is something that that is uh attractive to you, is that attention. Uh if I thought back on the women that I have dated over the years and one who I eventually married, probably really almost like the opposite personality trait. Probably pretty quiet people. Lily and I dated for a while in high school.
SPEAKER_04:Oh that was probably the only like real we dated for like a year.
SPEAKER_03:That was probably the only like truly like emotionally deep dating that I did in high school.
SPEAKER_05:Lily's great. She is, and I haven't seen her in a long time, but she's so great.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I fucked it all up and just I don't even just kind of freaked out and broke it off one day. And um and then um it was hard for a long time, like many years, and then we um sort of reunited and were very good friends again as adults and hung out with our spouses and kids and stuff, so that was great. And I sort of lost touch with her the last couple years she'd moved to Texas. But uh oh, yeah, her husband yeah, she and her husband are both statisticians, professors and staff.
SPEAKER_05:I did not know that fucking smart.
SPEAKER_03:And uh I think her mother was something her mom had a theorem named after her or something.
SPEAKER_05:It was oh my god. Well, all of our all of our parents are scientists, though. Like it's like Tony's parents professors, my parents are MIT people. It's like it's awesome. Yeah, but the theorem is pretty.
SPEAKER_03:Is that what brought you guys to Cambridge? Is that your parents were at MIT?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. I mean, my parents immigrated from the Soviet Union.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, really?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, in the late 70s. So my sisters were born there and I was born in Cambridge.
SPEAKER_03:I didn't.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Interesting.
SPEAKER_05:We couldn't be can we take us back in time and like that would have been a thing too.
SPEAKER_03:No, I know. It's too bad to do lives at well. I'll tell you what's interesting is we had this formative moment in our own bubbles. We that is we were there, we were there having this moment together, but we weren't really sharing about it.
SPEAKER_05:Dude, that could be in a book. That's so really important.
SPEAKER_03:We're coexisting and it's sort of a shame. But I'm very glad that you reached out and glad that we can um break those bubbles and and share what was happening inside of ourselves inside of ourselves at that time. So that's very interesting.
SPEAKER_05:Um, on the phone, when we talked a couple weeks ago, you said that you were happy to talk, but if we had lost our virginities to each other, you wouldn't want to talk. Can you explain that just because like it's interesting in the context of a podcast where I probably will talk to that person?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, right. Uh I to be to be honest, I think that I would be hesitant, I think, uh, in a in a public forum. I mean, maybe you know, this is going back to something we talked about earlier, that you know that's not something that I necessarily seek is is that attention and or sharing something that is that uh emotional and you know personally meaningful in a public forum. So yeah, that'd probably be a tough call. Or I would say that's it'd probably be a lot more regarded about it. I'm happy to talk about, you know.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, you're telling me everything you feel about.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, our adolescent um feelings and stuff. But I think that if it had been a truly intimate relationship, I would be much more hesitant to do so. And I don't judge anyone who doesn't feel the same way. You know, we all have different takes on these things, and and whoever that person is, and if you're gonna speak with that person and they're, you know, comfortable chatting about that, that's great. That'll probably make for more interesting radio than our mind does. Well, I mean, I tried to throw in the anecdote about pissing my own pants, just to add a little spice to it.
SPEAKER_06:Some titillation. Some titillation, some some titillation.
SPEAKER_03:Truth be told, I would in a urine on I and I didn't use my hands. I know. So everyone's out at recess. I had to tell Mr. Solwyn.
SPEAKER_05:So it wasn't really that you pissed yourself, you pissed on yourself.
SPEAKER_03:I pissed on myself, yeah. You tried you were out there. They had a backup. This is actually this is this is an interesting little lesson about adolescence, I think. They had a backup pair of sweatpants just for these certifications. And uh I put the sweatpants on, and I remember thinking, oh my god, I'm gonna walk out into the school yard, and everyone is gonna notice. They're gonna know I peed in my pants and they're gonna laugh at me. And you know what happened? Not one person had any frigging idea, of course. And I think that that's so true, you know, throughout our lives that that we have this sense that people have more awareness that people are doing their thing, for better or worse. Yeah. Life life lessons with Christian.
SPEAKER_05:So fun. Well, thank you so much, Christian. I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_03:No, uh let me know when it when it goes live or whatever, Brent. 100%. And keep in touch.
SPEAKER_05:Okay Yeah, this is so fun.
SPEAKER_03:Definitely, definitely. Good luck, and and you know, best in your in your relationship. And that sounds like a a tricky time, but you'll you'll navigate it. So good luck with that. And uh, yeah, thanks. Thanks for including me in your in your project.
SPEAKER_05:You like drugs, you like God. You like drugs, you like God. You like drugs, and you like God. How are you? I'm so happy to talk to you. I love you. I love you too. So I wanted to ask you what you remembered about Christian in the fifth grade.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I want to first start by what I remember about you, if that's okay. Very nice. Because I'm always more interested in you than I am about the boys, because I think you are the star of your life. So I just want to create the context of which people can better understand you in the fifth grade, which is an important part of this puzzle. So the school that we went to was a very Puritan school, and it had a specific value system, and that value system was rooted in the Mayflower. And the thing that happened when you entered into the school was it was cataclysmic, it was wild, it was free, and what you brought to our fifth grade class was a type of sexuality in females that none of us had ever witnessed before, which was you were openly pursuing and interested in a boy and you were not ashamed, and you spoke about it openly, and you were owning your sexual desire. And I think that that had this ripple effect across the grade that was profound because no one had seen that before. So I think it's really important to recognize that your crush on Christianity, it was epic. It had the potential for Greek poetry to be written about it, not English, Greek poetry, ancient Greek poetry, because it was so unheard of for a girl to be unashamed about her sexual desire and to express it openly. And the thing about Christian is it was all about the haircut. It was the haircut. You liked his hair. He came to school, he had a bowl cut and it was blonde and you enjoyed it. And because you liked Christian, you created an environment in which all the girls like Christian because your desire was so contagious and strong. And I think that also speaks to the power that you were bringing. So that I think is a very important part of the puzzle.
SPEAKER_05:It's funny, his hair did come up, and it's funny because he said the girl, because he started in fifth grade. He was like, and I came, he'd come to public school in Wellesley, and he came and he's like, I just felt like the girls at BBN were rabid. And I was like, it was kind of me. I was rabid. And he said that people, all the girls would wait for him by the fence, and his dad would drop him off and be like, What the fuck is happening? Are you the Beatles?
SPEAKER_01:No, but it was your desire. I think that is the point that's that's must be drilled in.
SPEAKER_05:I it's funny how little I remembered. Christian said I went up to him while he was swinging.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that sounds right.
SPEAKER_05:But that's like as childlike as you can get. He wasn't on the sidelines of a basketball game. He was actually pumping.
SPEAKER_00:No, he wasn't smoking cigarettes. He was mid-swing.
SPEAKER_05:No, he had a G.I. Joe under his arm. Funny. And yeah, do you remember anything about the frenzy around Christian? I don't really remember how I mean, what an odd thing to have a crush on someone and then encourage everyone else to date the person.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, I think that I don't think that we were looking at it from this space of ownership.
SPEAKER_05:It was more like acting teenage. Yeah, it was more like theoretical. And it's true that there was so not ownership because I was encouraging everyone to have a crush on Christian. Yes. I was like, everybody has to. It was like a trend.
SPEAKER_01:It was it, he it was like hashtag Christian. It was the year of hashtag Christian.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, I was actually kind of surprised. He was like, I remember that so well. I remember that date at Armando's. I remember that whole thing. I mean, he's like, that was a pivotal part of my life. Which, like, you just don't know what it affects people. And he also used to live as an adult near Armando's. He like sought all the time.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I think the thing that was interesting about the way that we were approaching the boys is that we were almost playing the role of the masculine.
SPEAKER_04:Interesting. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You were the one asking him out. You were the one directing the crush. You were the one that was speaking about it. I didn't even think about it.
SPEAKER_05:It was so just what I felt like doing. I think I also had older sisters and always sort of wanted to be older than I was. But it wasn't, yeah, it didn't feel like a big deal. It was just fun.
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah. And I think it was fun because it was safe. Because, like I was saying beforehand, there was zero sexuality in the school before you came.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:There really wasn't. It was very buttoned up when it came to that. Like crushes were super silent. Maybe girls would talk about it, but barely. So I think you came right in a moment where people were naturally becoming more sexual, and then you were vocalizing it. And that was what shifted the culture of the girls. And with the boys, it would have been seen differently either. I mean, the teachers were even encouraging us because it was funny.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, that's what I was going to say before. I mean, I don't know about encouraging us. I actually kind of remember Miss Dugas being like, okay, you guys, chill out a little.
SPEAKER_01:She was definitely talked to us about it.
SPEAKER_05:But she talked to us about it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. It was fun because it's like it was a role reversal of rather than the female being the object of desire, the male was the object of desire. And that role reversal for any teacher who had been a woman who had gone through the initiation that so many women go through of having to wait for the boy to call you and all of these cultural pressures and expectations for women to allow themselves to be pursued. So I think that there was a cosmic tickle that everyone observing this was experiencing because it was counterculture and because it had a revolutionary aspect to it, because it was contagious. It wasn't just you. You brought you were the spark, and then a fire was lit. I mean, I think it was about security too. You know, it's like when you have the sense of self or the sense of security to just be like, I like you, you're on the swing. We're gonna so there was this kind of confidence that was really interesting because all of these girls, you know, before you, we were conditioned and programmed to be appealing and agreeable. And I think that you kind of had a little bit of a different personality type that was slightly more spunky and demanding of attention and demanding of energy and demanding yourself to be seen and heard. And I'm not sure that that necessarily was existing in that same way before you got there. And so there was this allowance that it gave for other girls to be like, oh yeah, I should demand to be heard and seen too. So I do think that that was another interesting impact, but it was all wrapped up in your desire. Like I think your desire was kind of the personal impetus for you to be so bold. It's not like you were telling the teachers, like, listen to me about math, you know. Like it was really, there was a a very, I think it really does speak to how the creative energy of sexuality, especially in women, has major psychological impacts to how she presents herself in the world. Because you, as this like creative sexual being at that time, had this confidence, had this boldness, had this interest in being heard and seen and getting what you wanted.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, I had big crushes on boys in first, really second and third grade too. I was always asking my mom if I could have boys over. No, I know you did. I I wanted to have crushes. I sought out objects of desire because it was fun to like throw myself onto that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:I always wanted to express my big feelings onto something.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I think it, I mean, like, I think it was cool the impact that you had on the culture, you know?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad that people like loosened up after that. I didn't realize how sort of tight it was, but now thinking back, I'm like, oh yeah, that makes sense that it was tight.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was a tight scene. And people were young too. It's like you kind of came, even in fourth grade, we weren't really ready for it, but it was like fifth grade when you started really blossoming and you had been there for a year and made the friends, you know, like so you were able to like have this cerebral wave of impact, you know.
SPEAKER_05:And I was already wearing like tie and fedora and vest and blazer to school. Like I already sort of like was doing a look in fourth grade.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And that look was also quite masculine.
SPEAKER_04:That's so funny. I'm such a man.
SPEAKER_01:No, I mean, I think that, you know, this is the 80s, right? Or early 90s. So there wasn't this same sort of gender exploration. And you did wear these kind of clothes that were a little more you were dressing yourself.
SPEAKER_04:For sure.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And you were definitely influenced by more like traditionally like male style.
SPEAKER_05:Well, I think I was just influenced by like pop. Like I think it was a much like I think like Boy Georgian, even though Cindy Lopper kind of, you know, dressed ultra femme, she was dressing like unusually. So I think I was also just like experimenting.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but I I think that you were able, like maybe you just had access to clothes or you were shopping for yourself. But up until that point, most of the kids, their their moms were shopping for them at TJ Maxx. Like we weren't, fashion was not part of the culture at all.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. I think I was already going to thrift stores and and also just like taking stuff from my dad.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So you were kind of concerned with fashion as well, which was also we were not.
SPEAKER_05:Do you remember anything else from that time that you want to add?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah. Um let me think, let me think, let me think.
SPEAKER_05:Um it was fun. I feel like that's the overall sense of it. Not necessarily the date. Like I remember things in broad strokes often. And the date I remember, like, I just don't think we had much to talk about. But I just remember the frenzy around him. I felt really connected to all the girls together. It oddly was, rather than like tearing us apart, you would think that would be like this heightened jealousy and intensity and fighting. It was like unifying all of us loving each other, unifying, connected, laughing, giggling, like throngs of women for the Beatles or something. But it yeah, it definitely wasn't a source of antagonism at all. It was the opposite. It was like us loving each other in this like silliness.
SPEAKER_01:It was very bonded. And I think what's really beautiful about it is that a lot of times girls bond over having a common enemy and talking shit about each other.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Yeah. We were the ones having fun.
SPEAKER_01:We were having a lot of fun. We were laughing.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I just remember that it felt pretty vivacious, that like whatever it was, six weeks or something of that like height of Christian mania.
SPEAKER_01:I hope you entitled this podcast Christian Mania. That's pretty funny.
SPEAKER_05:Totally. Yeah, I'm so happy that you were there. Because I didn't, I sort of remembered that. I mean, I knew that I was like the person who got everybody to like him, but you have yeah, you have that fun outsider perspective on it.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah. And I have the before and after Miriam Katz entered the school. You know, I can give you the full I can write a dissertation about your impact on society if you want. I will create a PowerPoint that will be available.
SPEAKER_05:My impact on the pilgrims. Hell yeah. That's cool. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you.
SPEAKER_05:I love you. I love you. I want you all still to answer my questions. I still wanna know. How can you be so high? Amazing, right? Tony is so funny, and it's so cool to still be so close to somebody from that early time in my life. And like I said to Christian, it was so special to finally get to know him. And to learn that I had good taste in men back then. I really loved what he said about us each experiencing the date in a bubble and how fun it is to finally combine those memories and connect. Also, swings. So cute. So, yes, this episode definitely reminded me of how feisty I was back then and how much I was interested in romance from such an early age, and also how much fun I had. So thank you for being here. I hope this made you connect back to your childhood and ideally to some sweet memories of early, early loves. I find you all very attractive, and I will talk to you all real soon. Exapeal is so real, Exapeal is so real, Exapeal is so real. You are open, you are closed, you are open, you are closed.