The Ex Appeal Podcast
Host Miriam Katz interviews every person she has ever been romantic with on any level, from a 5th grade pizza date to an orthodox rabbi to a stripper she once hooked up with. Every. Single. Person.
The Ex Appeal Podcast
“I’m a Sex Addict” – Dating with an Intimacy Disorder
Host Miriam Katz and an ex she calls “Bone Broth” talk about their whirlwind Covid romance, Bone Broth’s sex addiction/intimacy disorder, and for good measure, mushrooms. I hope SEO brings this to people seeking recipes. A spicy one.
Audio engineering by Lamps Lampanella
Theme song melody and vocals by Miriam Katz, instrumentals by Jon Steinmeier
Logo designed by Anna Nguyen and Kathryn Davis
Photo by Dana Patrick
Hey, welcome back to the X Appeal podcast. Y'all just keep getting cuter. Uh, this episode is super interesting. I'm gonna call the guest Bone Broth, because that was my nickname for him to my friends. And interestingly, I was nervous for this conversation. I'm always a little heightened, and maybe my heart beats a little faster before talking to an ex, especially an ex I haven't talked to in years. But Bone Broth was an interesting case. It wasn't a very, very small encounter like maybe Noelle, and it wasn't a situation where we had a definitive and full breakup like Chad. Bone broth and I seemed like we were really going somewhere. And then very quickly we were not. And I think a lot of people can relate to this situation. It's one of the hardest parts of dating because you get excited and you really like someone, and then the possibility of a relationship just suddenly evaporates. So I think part of my nervousness was that it felt like there was a lot to uncover and heal from. And I wasn't sure how open bone broth was going to be to that. There's a reveal in this episode, and the title does hint at it, but I don't want to say that much about it until my coda to the ebb. So wait around till the end and I'll do a little processing with you. But this is really interesting, and I learned a lot about what Bone Broth was going through. And that helped me feel a lot better about what happened between us. So to anyone, lots of you, I imagine, who has been in a whirlwind romance and then very confused by a sudden ending. I hope this is useful and healing for you too. Let's do it. You like drugs, you like God. You like drugs, you like God. You like drugs, and you like God. It's so great to see you. This feels good.
SPEAKER_04:Likewise.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Feels great.
SPEAKER_02:Cool. I'm happy. You never know.
SPEAKER_04:Never know.
SPEAKER_02:I do love you coming in and it just being like, oh, yeah, cool. That like is part of the energy of this conversation. We're gonna go through everything that happened between us.
SPEAKER_04:Perfect.
SPEAKER_02:Do you remember seeing me on hinge? Like, let's go back that far.
SPEAKER_04:No, okay. I do not. I think I remember. Did you like me or did I like you?
SPEAKER_02:I don't does it work that way with hinge. Oh no, it's not like Raya where you both have to like each other. It's somebody likes someone.
SPEAKER_04:I think so. I don't I haven't hinged in a while.
SPEAKER_02:I also haven't hinged in a while. I think I remember you having a hat picture, and I think possibly a puppy picture, or at least I remember like a fake frown face, you know, when you do like you know what I mean? Is that a face you make?
SPEAKER_04:Probably. No, I think was that I was probably bald then, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, because this was like must have been 2020.
SPEAKER_02:I think it was 2020. You were very early on in my Hinge experience. I think you were maybe the first person I hung out with from Hinge.
SPEAKER_04:You were probably the first person I hung out with during the pandemic. What? Probably. Because wasn't it like it was October-November-ish. Well, so maybe I'd seen somebody else at that point. I was also like pining after an ax, which I'm sure we'll we can jet to that at some later later point.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so we there was like some communication. And then it's a little sound. I'm just gonna check one thing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_02:Much better. So much better. So it was just a little crickly crackly that I was just gonna be thinking about.
SPEAKER_04:You've got a you've got a voice for audio.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you so much. I do voiceover. Okay. Now I feel better. Now I feel like we're in it. We are on the radio. Okay. So yes, then we matched. And then we talked a little. I don't remember anything about talking a little on the app.
SPEAKER_04:I don't either.
SPEAKER_02:So usually like there's some funny stuff.
SPEAKER_04:And I feel like for us to have migrated off of the app, there must have been some decent banter.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And that is like a thing you are very good at.
SPEAKER_04:I am very good at decent banter. Flattered.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, are you actually? That's very true of you. I think that's a good thing for you. I mean, it's funny.
SPEAKER_04:I only ever experience a person as me experiencing a person, but it feels like I'm good with banter if there's good banter, and if it's if there isn't, and I'm having to do like a one-sided conversation, my banter meter gets gets pretty, pretty worn out.
SPEAKER_02:Interesting. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:You gotta die a lot. Yeah. Okay, that's cool.
SPEAKER_02:That's good to know. I actually I love finding out ways that people are different with different people because it's like, whoa, like there's a different side to you.
SPEAKER_04:Well, I would say that side, if there isn't that side, then I'm probably not gonna go on many dates with that person. Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. So then we talked on hand on Zoom, which for me was not weird because during the pandemic, I think first date, I always did that. I didn't really do phone, I did Zoom. It was like, no, I want to see you. And let's talk. And sometimes they'd be short. Ours was long.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And it was very official. It was like at three o'clock. You know, it was just like very yeah. And planned maybe a couple of days in advance. Like it was definitely a Zoom date. And we had so much. I okay. I should talk for myself. I had so much fun.
SPEAKER_04:No, I feel like we had the like for for a uh a video chat, the chemistry was pretty strong.
SPEAKER_02:Totally. And there was some joke about blueberries. I don't remember what that was.
SPEAKER_04:I don't remember at all.
SPEAKER_02:I don't remember what it was. I mean, that's kind of the best. It's like, oh, you're right, the blueberries. There was something going on with that. Literally, like I said, I was gonna bring them. I don't know. But it was so fun and light and joyful. And I think, especially during pandemic, it was like, oh my goodness, like levity is so nice. And it was very easy. And then, and we were texting a bunch, I think, at that point after that. Probably. And then you said, let's go on a second Zoom date. And I was like, what? I mean, it's not that crazy. It's not like I was like, this is strange, but it was surprising. Because for me, it's like the first Zoom date is am I gonna it was pre-vaccine. It was like, Am I gonna risk getting COVID pre-vaccine? That was what the Zoom date was about. And we definitely reached the point where it was like, oh, I definitely want to hang out with you in person. So I was like, okay. But the first one was really fun. So it was like, all right, let's definitely do that, no problem. And we had like so many jokes going into it already.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, we're a lot of intercept jokes.
SPEAKER_02:Like, I don't remember feeling nervous during either of those.
SPEAKER_04:Definitely not.
SPEAKER_02:Because it was like so easy. And then do you want to say anything else about either of those? Anything then?
SPEAKER_04:No, I I I think I'd been on one like FaceTime or Zoom date before that moment, and yeah, and that was a good example of no banter.
unknown:Oh.
SPEAKER_04:And just no chemistry. And it just was like super nice human being. Not it's just you know, it's not, it's not there.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And then our vibe was very different and very strong.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. Yeah. And that always feels like we're little kids, I think.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, a little giddiness.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And very improvisatory. Like very uh taking things from the sky and no concern about like, am I doing this right? Like, just very like well, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Well, I had lots of concern about things doing things right, but that was because I was like emerging from a cocoon of new ways of operating.
SPEAKER_01:Which we will get into.
SPEAKER_02:And okay, so are we done with Zoom? Let's carry on. Let's get let's let's meet.
SPEAKER_04:Let's get into like skin context.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. So then we meet up for the first time at your apartment.
SPEAKER_04:Right. And I think did we and we were gonna go get food across the street? We went and got tacos across the street because you're vegan? Or were gluten-free. Gluten-free. Okay, I knew there was there was some dietary thing.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. Oh, by the way, you know how people like have nicknames for people they're dating that they call that they say to their friends.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Do you know what yours is? Baldy? No. Oh my god, let's just have you say 12. Just name everything. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Uh all right. Baldy. Um blueberries. Um, hinge McHinge face. Uh second, second Zoom date, um, submouthful.
unknown:Oh my god.
SPEAKER_04:Was I was I like operating as a queer person at that point, or was I still a hetero guy? You were hetero. Okay. To me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So hetero guy. Straight guy. Oh my god. I'm running out of ideas.
SPEAKER_02:I'm so happy we're doing this on a lot of levels, but just it's like nice to hang out.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, ditto.
SPEAKER_02:Um bone broth.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02:Because you made I made bone broth.
SPEAKER_04:Wow, that's a real blaster.
SPEAKER_02:I let you finish the sentence.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. So maybe it was on text that you showed me the bone broth. But you also, when I got to your house, you showed me mushrooms you were growing. That's checking. And they were very cute. And there was a whole discussion of like the growth pattern of the mushrooms and like how quickly they were growing. And I also so I I remember where you worked, I won't say it, but I remember you also do you know a lot about space?
SPEAKER_04:I know a decent amount about space. I just find space to be a as in the outer space, to be a inspirational human endeavor. Or the going into outer space is an inspirational human endeavor.
SPEAKER_02:Somehow I feel like you revealed some of your knowledge about space or physics.
SPEAKER_04:I probably faked knowing something about physics to seem attractive.
SPEAKER_02:Something. I don't know. There was some discussion of scientific principles.
SPEAKER_04:That could be.
SPEAKER_02:Even though your professional life had nothing to do with that. And what did we So like we just kinda hung out and we got that food.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. And then we did we watch some sort of TV? Did we watch a movie?
SPEAKER_02:Here, I think there was discussion of watching a movie, but we had so much to talk about. It was like, we're not gonna watch a movie. Yeah. And then I don't remember whether you said this before we kissed or after. But there were definitely there was definitely some kissing. And then you explained to me why you had we had gone on two Zoom dates. Do you want to say what it is that you said?
SPEAKER_04:Or I mean I mean I'm gonna have to I'm gonna try to I because I don't remember exactly, but I I imagine that I said that I was in Sex Attics Anonymous. Yes. And that I was early on in that process, and that I was trying to take things slowly because I tended to conf or I tended when sex got involved early, it got messy.
SPEAKER_02:I think the way you just said it was a little bit different and maybe a little more clear. Probably.
SPEAKER_01:Probably. That sounds that sounds accurate.
SPEAKER_02:I do remember because you just said that you were pining over someone. I didn't know that. Yeah, I I knew that you had dated someone, and I knew that that was part of why you were in Sex Addicts Anonymous. But yeah, you said you said that there was you had to go on four dates before you could have intercourse with someone. Maybe four in-person dates. Like there was rules for you to be sober. Yeah. But I it doesn't make sense with like food sobriety and sex sobriety that there has to be rules, even though they involve it's not you can't.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I mean, we can we can have a long conversation about rules. But yeah, I mean, I think I think re like I was basically, yeah, I had no idea what the fuck I was talking about or doing it.
SPEAKER_02:Oh. Um, I mean, I mean I didn't think that.
SPEAKER_04:Well, that's that's how I feel. Like, so I have m multiple years of experience in sobriety and not sobriety and all these things. And like, I think at that point, you know, I was a newcomer in this, I mean, not exactly a newcomer, but I was newer to doing things with some like guidelines and boundaries in place. And at that point, I was just really not clear on like what I needed my boundaries and guidelines to be. And like, to be honest, I think if we'd had sex, it would have been totally fine. And like, did it make it less messy and complicated that we didn't have sex? Probably not, at least from my perspective. But it it was like I was just trying to take direction from sponsors and therapists, and like I think it's great. I think it's great that I was trying to do that, but also yeah, I was a young 30 or 30. Was I 31? I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, you were young, you're younger than me.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think I was 30.
SPEAKER_02:That's yeah, I mean, that's a lot younger than me.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I mean, you know, like I uh and I feel like a 30-year-old man is is really like a 26-year-old. You know, women I think are by 30, they've got like some semblance of things figured out, but I don't know many 30-year-old boys who have their shit figured out.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and also like with addiction, there's like another level of the um developmental hibernation. That's a nice way of putting it. Um, we did kiss a bunch.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think we had some heavy petting and very strong physical chemistry.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. And I remember that room. That was like kind of a small bedroom. Yeah, it was a small bedroom. The apartment was aren't cute, but the bedroom I just remember.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, maybe. I don't know. It's been so long since I've been in that apartment. Yeah, so I remember and there was also all sorts of baggage with that apartment because I'd lived in that apartment with an ex, and like it just was like Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Right. So that was like the two Zoom dates were just the fun, funny. And then when we met up, there was like the more complicated thing, which I think is pretty typical for date three. Date three is when it's like, oh, you just got divorced, uh, you know, whatever it is.
SPEAKER_04:Like, yeah, you start to although I mean, like, I don't know. I think in my more current mode of oper like operation, I think there's being honest and then there's oversharing. Oh, and I think that I which makes sense when you're early on in that process of figuring out like what you can do and not do. Like, I was in oversharing mode and I was like, I need to be honest. Like, I've never been honest properly in my life, and like I need to be honest with this person about everything that's wrong with me and everything that's going on. And you're like, I don't really need to know all of that.
SPEAKER_02:I did not experience you as immature. Like, I wasn't like, oh, this is a child.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And I do think it was important for me to know at least that you are a sex addict. Yeah, fair. Like that was pretty important. Also, I think I needed to know why you were putting up a physical boundary. So it's like, yeah, I've definitely had people overshare. I've definitely had what your experience of people, but what you're saying of people being like it's almost a way of like not getting in trouble by just being like, this is everything that's wrong with me. Totally. I didn't, yeah, I didn't really feel like you were giving me too much information. And I think the talking about the X, which people can definitely do way too much. I felt like it was in service of explaining why you were in the program. Totally, totally. And also some of the oversharing was like talking about like sexploits and stuff, and it was like fun. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:You know, yeah, I distinctly well, not distinctly, but I vaguely remember yeah, you talking about like your sort of orgy X escapades, like up in like Ohio or something.
SPEAKER_02:It was actually upstate New York, but yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. I like I knew there was like.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, and then you told me about like a I'll be vague, but like a a fling with an older woman. Can I say even that?
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So it was like we were talking, we were hanging out, it was sexy. I also not not that like COVID is like a main character in the story, but I do think it's some backdrop to like heightened everything. Yeah, for sure. And yeah, like you said, like physical contact when maybe you haven't had it. Also, you've yeah, you've been in a program. You definitely were young, you know, but it I didn't think of you as like that young guy. You that was not your nickname, it was bone broth. It could have been mushrooms, maybe. Um bone broth. And then I and then your mom has a store in the same town as my friend as a dance studio. There was like some kind of a connection with the Northeast. Yes. And yeah, I think it was like really fun to kiss. And I think we just had like such a good time and felt really easy. So I don't think I felt super concerned about anything that you told me on that date.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and I mean, I I don't think that I revealed anything that was like concerning. And also I think, you know, for like I don't know, if somebody told me they were a sex addict, I wouldn't even really know like what that fucking means because I'm like, I think everybody goes through periods of probably over sexualization. And so I feel like it's like to a certain extent, there's just sort of the yeah, I wish I could go back and just be a fly on the wall of that conversation and see sort of the communicate, like see the yeah, I don't know. I find it very amusing thinking back about it. Felt, yeah, I just feel a little bit like chicken with my head cut off back then.
SPEAKER_02:You do seem more more serious, but not in a bad way. You seem more grounded.
SPEAKER_04:I'm definitely way more grounded, and partially that's just because I'm 35 and not 30. But I also, you know, I know I'm still a uh baby bone broth. Um but also I don't know, I just have other yeah. I mean, I I think I've yeah, just spent a lot quite a lot of time not being in relationships where I felt like a garbage person. Um because of my own behaviors, but also because of my relationship to the people, you know, that I was in relationship to. So if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. Yeah. Then I'm yeah, I'm very I'm you're being very open, it's helpful. Uh and then and then I think maybe you went out of town. There was some like reason why there was some kind of a delay in hanging.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I don't remember. Uh probably because it was over the summer, right? Or was it in the fall? It was in the fall. It was in the fall, okay. Yeah, I probably went back to the east coast for a while. Like I I tended to do that. I would have still been working. No, I yeah, I would have just started a different job, I think, at that point. So that yeah, no, I said I probably was just going to see family on the east coast. I think that's what it was.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. And so that was a bit of a delay. And then I remember the next time we hung out, it felt different. It felt off. The very and like I so I think I think we only hung out twice in person. I think that's right. Yeah. So we took a hike near here.
SPEAKER_03:Yep.
SPEAKER_02:And then we came back here and I showed you an episode of high maintenance. Oh, yeah. The trick episode. Yeah. We just like sat there with like the laptop on our laps. And I don't know whether I showed, I mean, I was obsessed with that episode, but I don't know if I showed it to you. It was like two parts. One is somebody who hires a prostitute, and then the other is somebody who's asexual, and he starts dating an intimacy coordinator. So it's like all this beautiful intimacy between people who hardly touch, and then like the non-intimacy of people who are actually having intercourse. So I think it was like related to some of the stuff you were.
SPEAKER_04:Do you remember this? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Such an amazing episode. Yeah, it's a great show. I wrote to um the writer and the two stars just to be like, good job. It was COVID, so everybody wrote me back. You know, everyone's like, Thanks, you know. Um, but it was it was like you you seemed distant. Yeah, probably. And so I didn't feel like myself, but it was so different. I think I'd probably anticipated a shift because I don't know if you'd like pulled back. Well, I don't know.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But it was like that, I do remember that hang at your house being very easy. And then the one, the next one being a little fully teethy.
SPEAKER_04:Um although I remember that we I think we made out at some point. And like I do feel like I was that was that felt normal to me, or not normal, that felt like exciting and easy versus the Yeah, I do I mean, but again, this feels uh aligned with I would say just the the general struggle that I might have in terms of just intimacy in general, where it's like, oh, this person might like me a little bit. I gotta get the fuck out of here.
SPEAKER_02:Oh yeah. And is that because you don't feel like you can match up or give them what they want, or because you are turned off by someone liking you?
SPEAKER_04:I wish I knew the answer. Um I no, I mean, I think it's probably more the former than the latter, I think. Um which is like you can't handle what they want from you. Yeah, and and also yet not being able to sort of reciprocate, you know. I I think my grand epiphany of you know, the last five years is like I don't have to provide anything more than I want to provide. What and if somebody wants to meet me where I'm at, that's great. And if not, that's also fine. But if I don't like tell people that, it's gonna be very hard for them to know whether or not they can provide that.
SPEAKER_02:Well, are you able to articulate what it is that you are able to provide, or is it kind of like still working on it?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I would say that's you know, that's the final frontier.
SPEAKER_01:Do you know what it is that you can provide?
SPEAKER_04:I mean, I'm assuming it depends on the person. Yeah, it depends on the person, and I mean, I'm still figuring it out. I mean, I'm in an open thing with somebody right now, and it's challenging because it's, you know, this person probably wants more longer term. And I'm like, I don't know. But, you know, they also, you know, they've got somebody coming into town, I think, next week or the week after, and you know, she's like, I can't wait to see this person, and we'll probably, you know, go off and do our own thing. And I'm like, great.
SPEAKER_02:Whoa. Um great because you're off the hook somehow.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and also I think it gives me carte blanche to like go and fuck around, which is probably more of a slaw-related thing. And but I think if I could go back and say, you know, when we're sitting having that conversation, and I'm like, I'm a sex addict, I probably would be like, Yeah, like I have an intimacy disorder. And oh, you know, I've never heard that term. I think, I think if you talked with the average, like certified sex therapist who deals with this stuff, and uh, you know, I think like I don't really believe frankly, I don't really believe in sex addiction as a thing. I think it's you know, these are just like compulsive behaviors as a reaction to discomfort. And you know, from my perspective, I'm like, yeah, I just don't like too much intimacy.
SPEAKER_00:Wow.
SPEAKER_04:And and so to a certain extent, it's like you just gotta shut your brain off and be like, oh, I'm feeling really uncomfortable by the amount of intimacy in this situation. I just need to like ignore it. Ignore the discomfort? Ignore the discomfort because it's just it's you know, it's sort of like having an overactive immune system. You know, your body's going into you know fight or flight mode when it doesn't need to. And like that's way beyond my comprehension to know why that is. Like it's probably, you know, my mom didn't touch me enough when I was a baby or some shit, right? Um, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Do you want to feel connected?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, totally. No, I think the I can't remember, I think it's in the characteristics of sex and love addiction. So fast forward, I left, I don't really do SAA any longer. I like do slow, which is a little chiller, I would say. But I think like one of the characteristics in sex and love addiction is basically something along the lines of, you know, even though we want emotional and physical intimacy, we are like too afraid of it to seek it out, except when we don't have it, and then we seek it out constantly.
SPEAKER_00:Oh.
SPEAKER_04:And so, you know, it's kind of this sisyfician great term, sisyfician task of yeah, just constantly trying to push the intimacy boulder up or down the hill, depending on whether or not you have it or not. Um Do you feel it with friends? Totally. Yeah. No, I had this really interesting experience the last couple months where for the first time in my life, I have this really amazing sort of, you know, guy and girl group of friends together. It's a couple, it's a bunch of different couples, and just there's like a bunch of us who are friends, and you know, and everybody like wants to do trips together and all these things. And I was just like, it's too much. And I was like looking for ways to extricate myself from some of those things because I just like didn't want that much of it. And I sort of got like resentful and angry, and and then I was like, Oh, that's like totally just my sex and love addiction, like rearing its head, and you know, I just fucking ignored it and it's all fine.
SPEAKER_02:The ignore part is so interesting because that doesn't feel like uh the advice you necessarily get from therapy, isn't it more like feel the feelings or let the anxiety out or yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, you can feel the feelings. I mean, it's it's more like um, man, I can do all the program shit with you. Um, it's more like feelings aren't facts, they're not gonna kill you, right? So, you know, I can feel it as much as I want, but I just don't have to operate from the perspective of oh, I'm feeling this way, and I can recognize that that's just bullshit and that I can, you know, take contrary action as well. If it's bullshit, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Because I I have felt closed in by situations before, or I didn't feel like I had enough freedom or spontaneity, or I felt closed in, or I wanted to be able to do whatever I wanted to do. And um, and that was real, I think, for me at that time.
SPEAKER_04:Totally, yeah. And I I've had those as well. But yeah, I mean, I think it's it's just been and also it's just like I just have to be a little kinder with myself about things that I choose to do or not do and just operate from a place of like do no harm. But you know, if if I'm harming myself, it's like okay, you know, that's like mistake and move on.
SPEAKER_02:So Who This is all Yeah, like I didn't know everything you're saying to me.
SPEAKER_04:Like about me or just generally, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I don't think I if I if you'd asked me all of those things in reverse five years ago or four years ago, four years ago, five years ago, yeah, you know, I don't think I would have been able to articulate any of it. I think at that point I was like, I'm a bad person, I hurt this person who I was dating, who I really wanted to be with, and you know, and like these behaviors are killing me. Which to be clear, I think the behaviors were like probably watching too much porn. Yeah. And I really loved webcaming, where I like I would like get on camera and you know, it's very like exhibitionist shit. And and also cheating. But to be to be clear, with that person, I hadn't cheated. Um, I thought you had. I I mean, well, I guess it like it's semantics, so I emotionally I'm sure I had cheated on her, but you know, a previous relationship I had like really cheated, and maybe that's like a serial cheater. And and frankly, I had way more shame and baggage around that previous relationship. And really, I was like, I'm a monster. Like I cheated on this person half a dozen times over seven years.
SPEAKER_02:That's what I'm yes, that's definitely the one that I'm thinking of. I didn't realize there was a person after that person that you were pining over.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so in in classic sort of sex and love addicts fashion, I like broke up with that person who I'd lived in that apartment with, and then went to a friend's birthday party where the sister was at of the friend who I had had a like a thing with in high school. And we immediately went yeah. And and she was also an addict, recovered alcoholic, but also definitely a slot person. And like we just were like like smooshed together, um, smooshed together, and then yeah, and then I think you know, we like dated for six months and then broke up in the middle of 2019, or maybe at the end of 2019, I can't quite remember. But so it had been a pretty extended period of time before I met you, but we had kind of done that like cat and mouse shit, and also the nature of our break. And so which was the true fix you or fix you guys? Fix us as like a couple, which was like just like bonkers and not based in yeah, not based in reality. Um, and you know, like I think she's married now, and you know, I'm like pretty glad that that situation didn't end up working out. I think my life is right where it needs to be in in some ways.
SPEAKER_02:Dude, what was the question I wanted to ask about that? Oh yeah, it's interesting that you were able to have that like fever pitch intense thing, given that you are uncomfortable with intimacy. It's almost like that isn't intimacy. No, it's not. Like it's almost like you know that can't be sustained, so you're cool with that because it's almost like, well, that's gonna crash and burn. It's almost like the slower, yeah. Oh, there's a question I wanted to ask before about um, is it that you feel uncomfortable with obligation or like responsibility for somebody?
SPEAKER_04:I think it is probably more of a sense of like I'm gonna let you down at some point. Whoa. Um on like a subconscious level. Wow. Um I don't think it's Wow. Do you believe that someone could maybe not be let down by you? Yeah, totally. Like I'm I can like look at myself objectively and be like, yeah, you're probably a pretty good partner for most people who would, you know, be in a position of dating you. I think I'm like, I've got a lot going for me. I don't feel that way on the inside, but I can like look at it. I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like objectively, I'm like a fucking handsome guy with a house and a good job, and I can, you know, like do decent banter and I'm pretty good in bed. Like I'm probably and you make bone broth. And I make bone broth.
SPEAKER_02:But you don't feel it inside. No, definitely not.
SPEAKER_04:No, I would say like I'm at my you know, core, the core is rotten, so to speak.
SPEAKER_02:Is that the word you'd use?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and I don't mean rotten like putrid, I mean rotten like a well, since I'm in home renovation mode, you know, like a beam that's structural is rotten. And if the foundational beam of your home that's keeping up, you know, the north side of your house is not good because the part that's touching the ground is rotted out, you know, you're gonna have a hard time building a house.
SPEAKER_02:And you think it's the beams, it's not the glasses that make the beams look a particular way. Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Do you think there's a possibility that that's it, or do you think it's probably the beams?
SPEAKER_04:No, it's it's well, sorry. I think both are true. Where like I don't, I don't think, I don't think that I'm like bad. I mean, I just think that my like sense of self is fundamentally not structurally sound. And sometimes if I wear the right glasses, I can, yeah, like have the or frankly Duke Mushrooms, right, is a like great example of when you really alter your sense of your state of being, you can have a pretty profound realization around sort of yeah, your perception, right? I think like the Aldous Huxley famous um sort of psychedelic book is titled The Doors of Perception. Um, and I think that that's pretty true. Where it's, I do think, yeah, my sense of self for whatever reason, again, you know, mom didn't touch me enough, or dad was too mean, or whatever, uh, is just inherently that I am like not good enough. And I would say all the intimacy stuff and all of the self-doubt and perfectionism and all that stuff just comes out of like this kernel of belief that I am less than.
SPEAKER_02:Wow.
SPEAKER_04:I think.
SPEAKER_02:And you're saying that occasionally when you take mushrooms, you're like, you can love yourself. Yeah, yeah. Cool.
SPEAKER_04:That's or the universe, you know, loves you loves you love it. Yeah. Nice. Um which is frankly like that's the point of 12-step programs. That the universe loves you. Yeah. That you know, God, the universe, whatever the higher power is that you choose is, you know, it's like that you are loved unconditionally by that thing, and that, you know, if you just let go, that thing will take care of you. And that's sort of the other component of yeah, like a less than sense of self is that like you are not enough, and there's nobody there who will ultimately like take care of you if you're not enough.
SPEAKER_02:And have you had the experience of people wanting to prove to you that you're enough or something like that? And maybe that makes you feel even more closed in.
SPEAKER_04:That's a good question. Um I mean, I'm sure I have relationships from in my twenties that were probably had elements of that. But I no, I can't think of anything off the top of my head.
SPEAKER_02:Because I just think women are often really wanting to save you. Yeah, and take care of you. And but it it can be even more specific, like show you that you're lovable. And like obviously it can't come from without.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But I wonder if that is like there's some pattern of that of someone being like, Let me help you, and that being more of a turnoff.
SPEAKER_04:Totally. Yeah. No, I mean, I I think, yeah, I mean, another another way of describing that would be just we all love drama. And like, I feel like my like operating mode for relationships for a long time was very dramatic and was a lot of the like, oh god, I'm just blah blah blah blah. And then yeah, like somebody would swoop in and be like, no, you're not, blah, blah, blah, blah. And um, that reminds me of like, yeah, like college shit a lot, or the early parts of the relationship I was in for a long time in my 20s was definitely a lot of that kind of just yeah, it's just exhausting and chaotic. Which is most relationships in your 20s, I think, at least for me and people I know.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Okay, so to finish our story, I believe you then called me and told me what I remember is you said it was something about the program and dating me not fitting in with that.
SPEAKER_04:It's really funny.
SPEAKER_02:And so if you could say what it is that maybe you meant to say or what you think that means, and then also separately from that, the truth.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure exactly what I like. I'm sure I probably got coaching from a sponsor or some people in program. That's funny. In terms of like, yeah, because like to be honest, like I don't think I'd ever like maybe I had like one or two times in my entire life at that point where I'd like broken up with somebody. Oh, you'd like just not even ghosted. I mean, there probably were ghosting situations too, but I just was like, I like would always get to a point where like it was just we just Oh was obvious. Yeah, we just like we're we're done. Oh wow. I mean, I think I probably, you know, would have what I probably should have just said was like, hey, I'm just not feeling it from a romantic perspective, and like it's been really great hanging out and good luck, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Was that the truth, or was that what you would have or should have said?
SPEAKER_04:I mean, I think that that would have been the truth to a certain extent, but I think also, you know, the other side of that was just like that. I was like not in a place where I should have been probably dating anybody. I think that is also what you said.
SPEAKER_02:I think you said, I am not going to be dating now.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. But which I think is is true that I took some time off dating after that, if I recall. Although I'm sure I probably fucked some people along the way, but I did really take some time.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I do also remember there was something where during that time we were hanging out, maybe you kissed someone, or like something happened where you felt like you did something inappropriate for your sobriety. So maybe that was partly what made you realize.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, I yeah. There was somebody who I had been like sort of intriguing with for ages. Oh. Oh, wow. Okay. There's like a whole actually, I'm not sure if it was exactly the same. It might have been sort of right after.
SPEAKER_02:For some reason, I have in my head a redhead, and I don't know why I would know that.
SPEAKER_04:Maybe I'm making this up. I do love redheads, but I don't think there was a redhead around at that point, unfortunately. But there my neighbor, I I talked to my neighbor.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yes. Okay. And you told me, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And this is okay, yes. That must have been you must have been that you told me that before we hung out, and that was part of why that second date was like, like, yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. No, so my neighbor literally across, like, like walk out my front door across the door. So I had, so there was there was sort of two, there were two layers to the insanity of well, not insanity. There were two layers to it. So one was, let me think. Okay, so the story was basically that I was like sitting at home on a Friday night and I get a knock on the door. It's like eight o'clock, and my neighbor and one of her friends are both drunk and they like have knocked on my door and been like, can we come in? Which to be clear is every guy's dream since the dawn of time. And I was like, sure. And at this point, I was like trying to figure out how to sort of, oh no, wait, maybe was this the previous year? No, this is 2020, right?
SPEAKER_02:This sounds familiar.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Okay. All right. I was just like, I my sense of time is right. Because the next year I was in my house. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So they come in, and then my upstairs neighbor, who is this like very sweet, super butch lesbian, comes down and she wants to invite over this girl who she wants to sleep with next door, who's just broken up with her boyfriend. So she invites them over, and then we all start drinking, and then, like, long story short, I end up making out with the neighbor, the neighbor's friend and the woman who the upstairs neighbor wants to sleep with. And we're doing this kind of like four-way makeout thing. And I'm like, cool, this is the greatest moment of my whole life. Except I was like freaking out about that, like my ex-girlfriend might find out and this would like derail our chances of getting back together because she had at that point, I think, reached out in the past week or something. There's a lot going on. Yeah. Okay. And to be clear, like the the the key element of all of it is that uh why the fuck do I care what my ex-girlfriend thinks? Because like we're broken up and it's none of her fucking business. Well, but if you want to get back together, then still none of her fucking business. Interesting. We're not together, you know, like, and you know, her having like expectations for what I can and can't do while we're not together is stupid. I mean, like, she can think whatever she wants, but like it's not, she has no bearing on like how I'm supposed to be living my life.
SPEAKER_02:It also is the truth of what you want it to do. So if she's not accepting that, then that's already gonna be like a baseline problem. Totally. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. That makes sense. So anyway, long story short, I end up sleeping with the neighbor. They aren't they all neighbors? Well, just the the direct across the door neighbor. And the second element of it was that we didn't use protection. And that made me feel doubly bad because I had not used protection with somebody while I was in the open thing with my partner or ex- partner and and had lied about it. And she had really freaked out and been really worried about like getching it, which is totally valid and fair, and like was it was very fucked up behavior. But so, like, in my mind, I not only like derailed things with the ex because of sleeping with this person, but I like doubly derailed it by like sleeping with this person without using protection. So I think coming back to you, I'm pretty sure that that had a bearing on feeling like because I vaguely remember that you know you you had said, okay, like well, you know, like maybe there's a world in which we can just kind of, you know, like sort of be friends, but maybe more than friends and just kind of like explore things on a more casual basis. Maybe I'm making that up.
SPEAKER_02:I don't remember that. And I do think I generally speaking was looking for a relationship and I was starting to say that. Yeah. But it's possible that I started to say that after you.
SPEAKER_04:Got it. Okay. Yeah. So I I think I just basically came out of sort of that thing with those people and was like, okay, I gotta like fucking, I gotta put the brakes on here because I am like not in a headspace where I can be seeing people and and I feel out of control. Cause it was, you know, I I think it it this sense you get is I think with any addict, right? Is like when you're really like being an addict, you're just on autopilot. And you don't really feel like you have well, what you should feel is if you're truly an addict, you'll know because like you'll be like, I really don't want to do this thing, and you do it anyway. And I think that and I think that with like the sex and love addiction stuff, the more that I've let go of shame, I've been able to be much more clear about the things that I do or do not want to do. And subsequently, it's been a lot easier to sort of differentiate between things that are probably addictive and things that are just like, that's what I want to do. And um and that incident with that group of people, I don't know. I'm not sure if that was addict. I mean, there was elements of addictiness to it. There was also elements of like, man, it would have been really fun to have sex with three different women at the same time. So I don't know. I don't know what the sort of yeah, the barometer says on that.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, you've given me a lot more context to like how much this was about your experience and your intimacy disorder and everything that was going on with you and you feeling out of control.
SPEAKER_04:Uh yeah, I don't think I've thought about most of this probably for ages.
SPEAKER_02:So I am also opening the mic to you saying and it's not just not just to diss me, but I just think it's interesting for you to maybe specify, in addition to maybe feeling like closed in and like uncomfortable with the possibility of me liking you, either why the situation with me like wouldn't feel like it could be part of your sobriety, or m more interestingly, I think, uh, what it was that made you not want me as a romantic partner, which I recognize is a vulnerable uh question for you. But I'm just saying I would be open to hearing that just because it's really interesting. And it's years later.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I mean, I think. Well, I mean, like the most prescient thing obviously would be a speed, like the age difference felt real, and having subsequently dated somebody who was a lot older than me, I'm sure that that was probably part of what was factoring into my mind. Trying to think what else.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I would not date somebody younger now. Yeah, like I changed the settings after not after that, not like in response to that, but around that time. Totally. I was like, there should not be 29. The age range should not be 29 to you know 55. Yeah. It should not.
SPEAKER_04:No, and I I think, you know, again, I I think there's such a massive difference between like, frankly, like the person I'm seeing, the primary person I'm seeing now is 30, going 31. But she's mature. And I do think, I don't know, I think about 30-year-old guys I know, and like they're just they're just fucking not. Um, they just have no idea what's going on. And that's obviously a massive uh generalization. Um, Joe Rogan fans will come after me. Um, but uh yeah, they're just like fucking idiots. Our audiences are enormous crossover. Yeah, I figured you and GR JRE must just be competing for airtime.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Anything else? That was a question I had. So yes, I think that's yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, I think that probably was the primary thing. Yeah. No, I mean, I feel like there were a lot of things that that made sense, in fact. You know, like I feel like you had some elements of like masculine energy, which I found very like hot and exciting and interesting. And like there's a lot of things around, you know. In fact, I feel like to a certain extent, you were sort of like the first person I dated who was a little bit more, yeah, sort of like gender ambiguous. And I think like that was like really helpful and eye-opening for me. Um wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Say more.
SPEAKER_04:Say more.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's really interesting because that is a that's a huge aspect of myself that I have not yet discussed.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, no, I mean, I like maybe it's TMI, but I just like remember, uh gosh. I don't know. I think I shared some like semi-vulnerable stuff that felt well felt very vulnerable, just around, you know, like more of a feminine side and femininity and wanting to be like penetrated. And like, and I just remember you being like, Yeah, some days I really want to cock. And I just like remember being like, oh, interesting. And, you know, and I don't think that that's just things that are translatable into like a sexual dynamic, but I think that, yeah, you know, as somebody who's more fluid on that spectrum, although definitely more like on the masculine side, it's nice to find somebody who I think is like, you know, accepting an exploratory of that in the same way. And I think sort of conversely, right? I had this relationship for a long time where I felt so closed off and afraid to sort of share anything. And mostly that was on me, not on this other person. But, you know, I think that the couple times that I had sort of dipped my toe into sharing those things, the reaction had not been, oh, wow, that's so hot. It was like, I don't know, like that's pretty weird. So I think, yeah, just like being seen, and I guess this goes back to the intimacy thing, but just being seen by somebody and having that person just be like, oh, okay, cool, that's awesome. You know, was really yeah, just helpful. Helpful and also maybe unnerving. Yeah, yeah, probably a little unnerving, but mostly, yeah, just like exciting. And yeah, I mean, like it was hard to walk away when we hadn't like slept together because I was like, I would really like to do that. So, but you know, yeah, I think that it was definitely interesting to sort of yeah, explore some of that stuff, even in a yeah, in like a small way. And then also just I think, you know, like there was like a I mean, you you have and you're not not dead yet. Uh, you know, you just have like a level of confidence in your aura, I would say, that was like interesting and again different than people I'd probably dated previously on the whole.
SPEAKER_02:And it was interesting when you said the thing about me having masculine energy, my thought was, oh yeah, that sounds useful. Because yeah, it's sort of like let's continue.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. There's a lot of things here that I did not know. So this is like very helpful and interesting. Okay. Um can we find something else in terms of the like not wanting to be romantic with me? Because all the answers you've given have been so interesting.
SPEAKER_04:Um, I mean, I don't like dating actors.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:That's, you know, obviously that's an easy one. And why? Um, I think because I feel as though I am not inherently like the most grounded person, and I feel like actors have to, by the nature of what they're doing, like have a level of yeah, sort of like spontaneity and you know, and sort of like, I don't know what the term is. Um yeah, I think like I just maybe a better way of putting it is like I've looked for people who I'm like, wow, that is like somebody who's like got both feet on the fucking ground in terms of their like emotions and stuff. And also, you know, which I don't think is necessarily I think it's it's me filling in a lot of blanks, probably around like the the acting stuff. But yeah, I mean I think I'm like a whimsical, slightly unstable creative. And so, like, you know, like when I see people who are like artist, actor, uh musician, I'm like, nah, probably not a great idea. I'm like, oh, you're a banker? Perfect. Wow. I mean, not actually, like, I don't know, but that's interesting.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I think the first thing I thought when you said that was because you are an actor? So it's like, let me be it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I like I mean, I love a role play, but you know, like I don't necessarily feel I don't necessarily feel like I'm an actor, but I think I have some of the same actor, yeah, some of that same like vulnerability, probably.
SPEAKER_02:Oh wow.
SPEAKER_04:Maybe.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's interesting. That might be some of that uh fear of intimacy is just being like, I'm so raw, this is too much. Wow, that's super interesting. I'm gonna scan this list. Oh, here's a question. Were because there was so much of that like banter back and forth, and you just said I I had that masculine energy. Did I not did I start to feel like more of a friend person?
SPEAKER_04:No, I don't think we like I don't think we got far enough along for it to sort of migrate into friend zone territory. No, I mean I like I again I had like very strong sort of you know sexual desire. And I definitely wasn't like, oh man, I'm like totally not into this person, and it'd be just great if we could just like never touch again and just be friends.
SPEAKER_02:No, I didn't think that, but sometimes even if there is chemistry, there's a feeling of maybe this should be something else. Almost when you get along that well sometimes.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I mean, I think I don't know, I don't I don't necessarily feel as though I had enough of a understanding of like what I needed in my life at that point to be able to evaluate like what I wanted in friendships, even. Oh and I also don't think that I necessarily would have done a great job at holding boundaries in terms of being friends. Of course, of course.
SPEAKER_02:No, yeah, it's not even that you wanted to be friends, but that that may have been part of the reason why you didn't like see romance with me because you're just like, this is like my life.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I see, I see. No, yeah, that I don't think that was the no, I don't I don't think that that was the experience.
SPEAKER_02:Um, you had mentioned this term of autopilot. Did you feel like there was we truly only like mate out and it was only twice, but did you feel like there's some autopilot elements in it?
SPEAKER_04:No, if anything, I felt like very like in general, I have a hard time like with I'm just not great, like my memory is like a goldfish, but like I distinctly have this like uh like memory of you putting your hand like in my shirt. And like that, like I still remember that. Wow. Um so no, I mean I think if anything, like I was very sort of grounded and actually sort of in the yeah, in the moment. Cool.
SPEAKER_02:It's that was not because I experienced that, but just because that is that can be an element of addiction. Um oh so after that, we still texted a little bit. And then at some point I texted you asking you if I could buy some mushrooms because I was going on like a special weekend, and you didn't write back to me.
SPEAKER_04:Interesting.
SPEAKER_02:And then I said a little later, hey, no need for this, just checking in to make sure you're fine. And then you did not write back to that.
SPEAKER_04:Huh. I wonder if I blocked you. Because I don't have those last two text messages in my phone. Wait, hold on, let me look. I don't think because I think the last thing I have from you is that's but no, if if I had blocked you, I wouldn't have that is fascinating. Did you s oh maybe you sent me an audio recording? Oh no, that was that was just this. Okay, so the last thing I have from you was January 18, 2021. And it's a it's a text message with a tweet next to it.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so there's a tweet. So we'd been in touch January 12th, back and forth, political stuff. Tweet. Didn't respond to the tweet, but it's not like I Yeah, that's the last thing I have. Okay, so then I said it was 12 days later. I'm going to Joshua Tree in a few weeks and would love to make the famous growths with my butt, and maybe also micros for daily life, whatever I can give you a trade, whatever, you know. And then a few days later, like, hey, no need to respond. Will you just like tell me you're fine?
SPEAKER_04:And I didn't risk I yeah, no, I don't have either of those. Blocking is so interesting. I don't think I blocked. Well, maybe I did, but I mean the fact that you didn't get those. I might, but like when would I have unblocked you then? Because you because your message came through.
SPEAKER_02:Well, also, why would you have blocked me?
SPEAKER_04:Because it's not as if I don't it doesn't make sense that I would have blocked you. Like, I I've only blocked people so I actually so I that's really interesting because I really thought you were gonna there was a whole thing.
SPEAKER_02:You were just like, I just didn't want to deal with it.
SPEAKER_04:So I don't know, yeah, I have no, I don't think I ever got those messages. Whoa. Spooky. For those of you listening out there, blocking is actually a really great way to remove yourself from a thing that you don't feel like is healthy for you. You just block and delete that number, and then you won't be wondering whether that person's gonna reach out to you again or not.
SPEAKER_02:But also, can't you just tell the person?
SPEAKER_04:Totally. And what I would say, well, yeah, I mean what I would say is well, that's actually really that works really well unless that person doesn't respect and hold your boundaries. Which is why I would be surprised that you would block me because there was never almost a hundred percent sure that that's not what happened in that case, and I don't know why I didn't get those messages.
SPEAKER_02:But like interesting. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Well, so then because I totally would have given you mushrooms.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you. Yeah, it was like January 2021, and then we did not talk for four years until I sent you a voice memo about this. And what did you think about that?
SPEAKER_04:Oh, I was super down. Yeah, no, I like there was no no hesitation. In fact, I told the person that I was dating um that I am dating, and she was like, Oh my god, that's the best idea for a podcast.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, it has been incredible.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um I am also both impressed that you were like, yeah, great, this time. And also that I mean you've been very open. Are you always pretty open?
SPEAKER_04:I think that when you operate in slaw, you like I mean, this feels like a really extended version of a lead share to a certain extent. I mean, not exactly, but um, but no, yeah. I mean, like, I I think you're only as sick as your secrets, as they say.
SPEAKER_02:You think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I quote myself, that's great though. I mean, that's such a positive thing, I think.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and I again, like, I don't, yeah, I just like, yeah, it's it's another one sick and tired, being sick and tired, you know.
SPEAKER_02:I love those things.
SPEAKER_04:I love some idioms.
SPEAKER_02:Oh god, I love 12-step truisms.
SPEAKER_04:Exactly. Um, but yeah, no, I mean, like, I I don't think I've done anything that bad.
SPEAKER_02:I think I just, you know, like Yeah, definitely not that bad, but some things are just private, even if they're not.
SPEAKER_04:And well, yeah, I mean, like, and the flip side of it is is like I think we, for better or for worse, are living in the like the era of never apologize for anything and shame is so, you know, 2020. And maybe that will be like the silver lining of the fuckhead that we, you know, currently are experiencing on a global and you know, national level. But like, I think, yeah, like it's really great to have dialogue about past behaviors so that maybe you can not do the same thing, you being the royal you. But then also, you know, it's like helpful for my own edification and growth to be able to think about how I did things and how I would do them differently and better moving forward.
SPEAKER_02:I think it's also so nice to even just clarify that you didn't get that cags. Yeah, that's really.
SPEAKER_04:Really funny.
SPEAKER_02:You know, I'm so glad I asked about that. Because I was always like, oh, he ghosted me.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You know, he didn't, he broke up with me. But then later he was like, nah, and just didn't want to deal with it, which I think everyone has done, or many people have done. I think, especially after I was like, just make just let me know you're fine. And then you didn't write back to that. I was like, What weird.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, it's it's possible I blocked you. It just seems really weird that I would have blocked you and then like unblocked you.
SPEAKER_02:I think there's a time. Is there no? I can't. It can't. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I just, but like it's weird. Yeah, it just seems really unlikely. And also, again, like, I don't feel like there was any reason for me to have blocked you because it wasn't like you were like lowering you. Yeah, or or vice versa, that I like was like you know, texting you, oh my god, the fucking dildo in the window.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that was across the street from your apartment. You have to explain to the to the listeners.
SPEAKER_04:So a dildo is uh a phallus-shaped uh sex toy. Um, no, uh there was in like the apartment that I lived in, there was an apartment building right across the street, and the couple upstairs, wow, I haven't thought about this again in like years, but they would clearly like fuck, and then they would leave, and then they would like go clean their toys in I think their kitchen sink, and then they would like leave them on the still to dry.
SPEAKER_02:I didn't get all that. I just you sent me a picture of dildo in a window across the street from you.
SPEAKER_04:I think that was like I that was the subtext, I think, of like yeah, or at least that's the story I made up in my head. Um you made a lot of things. Yeah, there's just like yeah, there's just like this thick, veiny that is so funny. Dildo just drying off in the sun.
SPEAKER_02:But that is to say that there was a lot of text between us back and forth. Yeah. Yeah, it is interesting that after that situation with you, I then was less interested in dating younger people and I was very clear, which I'm it's possible I was with you, but and maybe that's why you were like, Oh, that's not what it can do.
SPEAKER_04:Um I'm just gonna pause you for one second, but the way that you're sitting and your hand popping over your knee, it makes it look like you have tiny little arms. Like tiny little T-Rex arms. It's really good. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um what was I saying? Oh, just and then I would be super clear that I was looking for a specific thing. So that was my little like out chop of that. But yeah, I think this is nice because I felt like um it felt very fun and very good. So just it feels nice just to sit down and hang out, and then also just to get a little more of this the the context of what was happening. I don't know, something about like knowing the story really helps with the memory of something.
SPEAKER_04:Totally. Yeah, and I it's helped I again I I think it's it's just interesting, yeah, sort of uh playing back things that I haven't thought about in a hot second.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Um, because that's just I mean, it it's so long ago. Like it does feel like so.
SPEAKER_02:It wasn't that long ago. It was less than five years ago.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, listen, that's a long time when you're only 15.
SPEAKER_02:Right. Uh yeah, for me, I'm like, that wasn't that long ago at all. Um this is like such a this question sounds like it's like bigger than it is. Do you ever think about that time?
SPEAKER_04:Between us? Yes. Yeah. No, I do. I don't think I like I don't think about it regularly, but I do certainly think about it from time to time. And I think especially because it was, you know, it was part of like a larger context of a lot of transformation. Um and you know, and I would say it was a it was sort of a holistically tumultuous and painful time. And then like that was like a that was I would say a memory that I felt you know pretty good about. Um, which is partially why when you reached out, I was not like, oh my god. I was like, oh, yeah, that's so nice.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you know. No, it was pretty wholesome.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. No, I I I think it was super wholesome. I mean, especially we didn't get into any kind of like hijinks. So it was like in terms of wholesomeness, uh, it was pretty pretty 10 out of 10.
SPEAKER_02:And, you know, you can make amendments about exactly what you said, but or when you said it. But uh yeah, honestly, aside from like ghosting me, but actually not ghosting me, I didn't, yeah, I didn't feel I feel like you did a pretty good job during a moment when maybe you felt like you weren't always doing the best job. I feel like you were pretty clear. I didn't totally get it because we'd had such a good time. I think when you're having such a good time, it's like, but let's just keep having a good time. Totally. But now I'm like, oh, I understand that you're going through so much. And now with the intimacy disorder, that like the good time was also a little yucky.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I mean, uh yeah, it's not even yucky, it's just uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, okay, uncomfortable, yes. Or maybe closed in or something.
SPEAKER_04:Yucky, I feel like has a connotation of me being like disgusted. Yeah. And I I don't think I felt disgusted as much as I just, yeah, like, yeah. Closed in, I think, is a really good description. Wow. And I don't think it's necessarily like, yeah, it's sort of that situation was specifically closing in E. No. I think it's just generally like that's just sort of the experience.
SPEAKER_02:I think as a person who has felt closed in by relationships before, like in my 20s, it surprises me that I could be the thing that makes someone else feel closed in.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, to be clear, yeah, like in a in a different context, you were very chill and easy. And I don't think it was really much about you at all.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, I'm understanding that. Yeah, no, it's not. Yeah. But that's an interesting Yeah. And just that you have to be able to say yes to that. Totally. For that to be a pairing. Yeah. It's like it doesn't matter that we got along well or had chemistry. Both of us had to be like, let's experience this. You know? So you were like, no, you know, and then yeah, and then you told me. It was very like limited time, but I think because of like I think there was so many texts and like so much fun, and it being during COVID, which was a very skeletal time, it was just uh And I do think you're right that there was there was sort of a pause because I was gone for a couple weeks, I think.
SPEAKER_04:And so it just feels like the idea like extended.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, right, right, right, right, right. Um is there anything else you remember or that you want to say?
SPEAKER_04:Oh, I mean, I'm curious, like what was your perception of just like moving me or yeah. I mean, I guess like the breakup, but also the whole thing, or even just me.
SPEAKER_01:I'm curious what your tell tell you about you.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Uh I thought you were so fun and so smart. And those things don't always go together. So that was really exciting. Um, you're very handsome. So it was like that was a lot of really good stuff. And the like the fact that you were younger, it was like whoops, you know. Um let me think what else. Yeah, you just were into so many different things. Like, truly, like bone broth and mushrooms, it's like such silly little examples, but I don't know, you were into stuff, and that was cool. You weren't flailing in career, which generally someone that young that would be the issue, is that they were like in debt, didn't know what they were doing, an intern somewhere, whatever, you know. So you were very like put together professionally, which is cool.
SPEAKER_04:Um I'm now much more flaily. Oh, interesting. That's great.
SPEAKER_02:But that's also great, you know. Artist. Um let me think what else I it was fun to kiss.
SPEAKER_04:Um he's nodding.
SPEAKER_02:I yeah, I do remember it feeling like um, and this happens with contemporary dating a lot. I did feel like uh something was being taken away from me quickly. It felt like what? Because it had been there had been so much. It was a little love-bomby in that way. Not that you love bombed me, like you did not you said a bunch of nice things to me, but you didn't say too many nice things to me. But it felt like we were like, it's like when you go see a bunch of different apartments or houses when you're looking and you imagine your life in each of them. I think I was sort of like, ooh, I could see this unfurling into a whole thing. So I think it felt a little um to be a little dramatic, ripped from me. Um and I think you seemed very mature. I'm now like hearing some it's not to say that like intimacy disorder is not mature, but I think I didn't understand that all that was going on. And also that's like me filling in stuff, you know? Yeah, yeah. But I filled in someone who did not have an intimacy disorder and was gonna be able to do it. And I think also when you're I had been in open relationships for 20 years, right? And then now at that moment was saying, like, oh, I'd like to be in a relationship. And I think when you're in that situation, maybe and it's COVID, and you're just a little more like heightened emotionally because of COVID, maybe there's a way I'm saying, oh, this is like the answer. I think there was a little bit of a like, oh, not the answer, but here's an answer. Here's a pathway. Yeah, that's also a reason why it's so cool to talk about this later. Because I think if I say that to you at the time, it feels like I am begging or trying to make you feel bad, or it's like five years later I can say that and it's just that's fine. Totally. But it also feels nice because yeah, I think saying that somebody is funny and like actually funny, you know, there's like uh people who kind of try or who copy funny because there really are ways that you can like learn a little bit from culture or even from comedians and like repeat that. A lot of people do that, but I do think like in a true way you are funny. Oh, thank you. And um yeah, I think that was like fun to be around, and I think there was an energy to you that I felt like I could merge with. And that felt really good when like I hadn't, yeah, been around people that much. Totally. You are like kind of a whirlwind, like there's just something in you, it's a little like let me like enter in. So it is yeah, the intimacy thing is really interesting. And I guess I would like hope for you, I would hope for you that's something that like can you can shift out of in a way that feels real and healthy and good. And um yeah, that thing of like not feeling like how like wonderful you are, that would be very cool for you to have an experience of like, oh, I'm a delight.
SPEAKER_04:Well, I will work on it, or not work on it.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know, maybe it's more of a like letting go thing, but yeah, yeah, I guess it's yeah, something. Yeah, but I'm like, you coming here and being honest with me gives me a really good feeling, and it makes me feel like uh like settled. Even though that was like a brief situation. I mean, that's what all of the podcast has been. It's been like, oh, let me like go back in there so that I can like put it away more.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. No, I like that. I mean, I think that's uh yeah, burying things properly or giving them the proper burial is important. Totally.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it feels really good. Right. Yeah. Are we totally done? Is there any last anything?
SPEAKER_04:No.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, I agree. Yeah, no, we really didn't.
SPEAKER_04:We evacuated. Let's cut we'll cut that out. Nope.
SPEAKER_01:I thank you.
SPEAKER_04:I thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my god. I want you all still to answer my questions. I still wanna know. How can you be so high? How can you be so hot?
SPEAKER_02:Oh man. Wow. I learned so much from this episode. I'll say, first of all, that it did feel really good that Bone Broth took the time to talk everything through, which is true of all these episodes. I'll also say I had no business dating him. There was no world in which we were gonna have any semblance of the kind of relationship I was looking for at the time. I love intimacy. Even in open relationships, I want closeness. And I always want people to love me. So it was interesting to hear at a later time how totally inappropriately matched we were, despite the fact that we got along so well and had such good chemistry. So I hope that can help someone who's struggling with why something isn't working with someone they like a lot. That dude needed to want to be in a relationship and needed to be able to be in a relationship for us to actually date. So I'm glad to know what in the world is going on, and I'm glad to know about this concept of an intimacy disorder. Super good information. I did also love him telling me all the reasons he didn't want to date me. That was just a bit of a thrill. My age, the fact that I'm an actor. Those things were clearly printed on my Hinge profile, but still I didn't know that those things were an issue for him at all. But I feel good. It really was a nice feeling of, okay, I get what happened so much more now. I get why I liked you. I get why we made no sense. Peace be with you. And again, I hope this helps some of you listening feel like you got a little of that goodbye feeling too. You're so cool for listening, and I can't wait to share more soon.
SPEAKER_01:X appeal is so real, Exapeal is so real, X Appeal is so real. You are open, you are closed. You are open, you are closed. Exapeal is so real.