The Ex Appeal Podcast

“I Don’t Usually Get This Vulnerable” – Dating Your First Love

• Miriam Katz • Season 1 • Episode 9

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In this episode I speak with my first love. We met as teenagers. He had a lot of swagger and I was smitten. As he says in the conversation, he doesn’t normally talk about his younger years, so this was a notable experience for him. (“My wife said I had to do this”). We delve into meeting at a high school basketball game, falling in love quickly, meth, and the impact we’ve had on each other’s lives. I also interview my friend Rachel about her memories of starry-eyed Miriam. A swoony one. 

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Miriam:

Hi, cuties. Welcome back to the Ex Appeal Podcast. I'm your host, Miriam Katz. In this episode, I talked to the first person I ever fell in love with when I was 15. And as usual, I learned a lot of things I never knew. As Ryan says in the conversation, he doesn't normally talk about this time in his life for a lot of reasons. So it felt so special to discuss the really beautiful moments between us in the midst of a difficult time for him. Ryan was love ground zero for me. So I'm so, so grateful that he was part of this show. After the interview with Ryan, I talked to my good friend Rachel, who I was very close with while swooning for Ryan in high school. And she gives a really good sense of how I was feeling and how much I knew then how important Ryan would always be to me and how important love would always be to me. It's a lot of fun, and I'm glad you're here for it. You liked me too much. I liked you too much. You weren't enough. You liked me too much. Hi. Hi. Oh my god, so fun. How you doing?

Ryan:

I'm good. I'm good. Just uh yeah, just busy working, raising a family, that all the good stuff.

Miriam:

Totally. Yeah. So I've done a bunch of these, and I'm like very grateful that you're down to do this with me. And I wanted to talk about our dating life when we were kids.

Ryan:

It's gonna be a we're gonna have to think back a lot, but for a long time.

Miriam:

I was of course, it was 1995, but I have a pretty good memory, and maybe I can jog some stuff. Um, so the whole podcast is talking to, yeah, like I said, anybody that I've been romantic with on any level. Um and just to see what people remember and yeah, where we are now and stuff like that. Um and some people have been a lot more recent, and then yeah, there was somebody that I went on a date with when I was 11, but you're also like a very early on person. And yeah, if there's anything you don't want to talk about, that is like completely fine, of course.

Ryan:

Yeah, are you are you going to I presume you're gonna edit all this and produce it? So okay. And then have you have you posted any of these yet?

Miriam:

Or no, I haven't. I'm happy to send you like a couple that are edited and recorded, but um yeah, I'm collecting a bunch at once just because it takes so long to edit and sure do intros and all that stuff. I think, yeah, there will be one that'll be more like a radio program, and then a lot of them will just be like basically the interview, but yeah, cut down.

Ryan:

And is it gonna be video or just audio?

Miriam:

Just audio, yeah. So you don't have to worry about your look.

Ryan:

I mean, I look good anyway, sometimes.

Miriam:

But I'm but I'm I'm glad. Uh yes, it'll just be audio, which I really love. I do listen to a lot of podcasts. Well, so I would go back. Do you remember us meeting even before we went?

Ryan:

Yeah, I'm trying to think. Uh 1995, six 17, 16, 17. Did I meet you through what was that girl?

Miriam:

It's so funny to hear you say, I mean, yes, but just like that girl was like so important at the time. Yes.

Ryan:

She was very important. Whatever happened to her? Did she I don't know, like she had like the like such a I mean, we can reflect, and I there was a lot of probably bad shit going on with her. If I think so.

Miriam:

I think that's true.

Ryan:

Um so she lived like in Back Bay, maybe? Yes. And she I don't know if I dated her. I don't think did I?

Miriam:

You did because it ended up being a little bit of a drama. You did, or at least like you hooked up with her, and you guys were super good friends. I don't know how you met, and I went to high school with her. Yeah, and then commonwealth. Mm-hmm. And then there was a basketball game, I think between your high school and my high school. We both went to like sort of dumb high school, like dumb small high schools that had no real sports.

Ryan:

Um, exactly like Commonwealth and Brimmer and May and a sporting event just seems comical, but yes, it's like we might as well be fencing, like who cares?

Miriam:

But it's basketball to play like a real sport is like totally absurd.

Ryan:

I think I think I'm I'm I'm remember I'm remembering. Okay.

Miriam:

I don't remember that much from that, but I do remember that we met. I do remember in general that you dressed in like you wore like baggy jeans and fresh dive shirts.

Ryan:

Oh yeah. Yeah, Fresh jive, stoosy. Yes, right? Stussy.

Miriam:

There was a JNCO, I guess. I don't know if you did Django specifically.

Ryan:

I didn't I didn't do JNCO.

Miriam:

But you would baggy, you know, baggy. You're more like a skater than raver, but a little raver.

Ryan:

Well, yeah, it turned into raving, but yeah, started as skating. And I think I actually have uh let me see.

Miriam:

Whoa. If you have a picture of you in fresh drive.

Ryan:

I may have something. I don't know. Let me look at this. Give me a second.

Miriam:

For audio listeners, this is the uh picture visual element.

Ryan:

Oh my god. This can you see that?

Miriam:

Oh my god. You're gonna have to take a picture of that and send it to me, but that is wild.

Ryan:

Yeah, I don't remember where that was. Oh my god. But yeah, that was that was one. And then was there I don't think there's in this album. This is when this album is mainly when I did like the South of France Exchange student thing. We knew each other then. Like junior year, maybe sophomore year. Yeah, probably junior or sophomore year. Um god, yeah. Well, I'll take these pictures and send them.

Miriam:

Please do. I've I've I actually really want you to do that, but I can't see it. It's really adorable. Okay, so I remember you my main impression of that was just that you were dressed like a skater, parlaying your way into Raver, and you seemed very cool, whatever that meant to me when I was a sophomore. And we talked we like barely talked. Like I don't really remember there being much of an exchange, but then you asked for my phone number.

Ryan:

Okay.

Miriam:

Which felt like such a it I I had always wanted to meet a grown-up, like since I was like five or six. So it felt like this like big grown-up thing to be like, yeah. I think otherwise if you date someone who's like at your high school, then it's like uh I don't know, it just doesn't feel as big a deal. It's like you're sort of used to the person, but it felt like really significant, and you seem cool, so that was really exciting. Okay.

Ryan:

And then do you remember anything? I can't I rem I remember the past fall. Uh I remember you being there. I don't remember necessarily much after that, but maybe it'll come out in the in in discussion. I don't know how I knew so that's yes. I don't remember how I knew her.

Miriam:

I mean you yeah, you both hung out. She went to the before Commonwealth, maybe that was something.

Ryan:

Maybe.

Miriam:

Um and then we went out in like the early evening. You got coffee. I got a virgin pina colada because I didn't drink coffee at night because I was a child.

Ryan:

Where was this in was this in Cambridge? It was in Harvard Square. Yeah. Harvard Square, okay.

Miriam:

It was at a little coffee shop above an independent movie theater.

Ryan:

Okay.

Miriam:

It was like maybe called Casablanca or something Moroccan.

Ryan:

Okay. Don't recollect, but I spent a lot.

Miriam:

I actually love how little you remember. This is turning into like a monologue. Oh god. I remember that we were having a good time, but just sort of like normal good time. And then at some point you started singing from uh West Side story.

Ryan:

Uh yeah, that kind of sounds like the kind of person I was or am or would have been read.

Miriam:

And it was super funny, and I think that really surprised me. It was like crazy. Yeah, you did like you got to get another, you got to think twice, and I was like, oh, this is a different situation. Because it was just sort of like, uh, we're talking about life, and then you were like being funny, and it was like another thing. It is actually a joy how little you remember. It's so fucking funny.

Ryan:

Um I remember, but I remember and and so tenth grade, 95. I mean, did I have my license then? Did I drive that red blazer?

Miriam:

100%.

Ryan:

I mean, the big the the most vivid memory, and I don't want to jump around, but is your dad and the red blazer, yes, knocked on the window.

Miriam:

Yes, we will we will get to this momentarily. Okay, so I'm trying to think. I like that that's the highlight of our relationship. Okay, so I remember that you then drove me home. I walked there, met you, you drove me home. We were listening to Beastie Boys, and then I was like, I don't want to go yet.

Ryan:

Right, okay.

Miriam:

And then you took out your gum and then you changed it to slow music, and then we kissed in your car. And that was not yet my father coming out, but I do remember.

Ryan:

No, that was that was that was that was yeah, that's when it got a little hotter and heavier. But that's funny. Gosh, my gum. I chewed gum? No, I didn't think I chewed gum.

Miriam:

I just think it was so funny that you changed the music, but you know.

Ryan:

Well, I mean, I I have to set the mood. Right. I've I've seen in 95, yes. In 95, it's like, all right, time to put on some Enya or something. I don't know.

Miriam:

Yeah. I don't think that's what it was, but you know, possibly Sarah McLaughlin. I have no idea. Wow. And then we kind of just like started dating, like right away. Like sort of right away, it was like, oh, we're boyfriend, girlfriend.

Ryan:

Well, yeah, that's how it I don't think you in those days in that time period, it's not like you like were dating. That's you were like going steady right away. That's true.

Miriam:

Yes, I think that is true. And I don't even know if that's like the era or the age, but yeah. Um yes. And one thing I remember is going first of all, you were starring in Bye Bye Birdie at the time.

Ryan:

I yeah, I I forgot I think I must have had the star role done like the worst singer ever. But Bremer May was like uh supportive of my bad voice, I guess. But or I was probably the only male that wanted to do theater then. I don't know. We were also very outgoing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. That's funny. Yeah, I remember bye bye birdie. Yeah. I know that remember the music. I'm not gonna sing for you now, but come on, do it, do it. No, do West Side Story. No West Side Story. Oh my god, that's so funny. Alina's gonna get a kick out of this when she listens to this. Oh I I have to tell you, I was a little apprehensive just to do this kind of thing because you know, yeah, my teenage years, my childhood was had some complexity, so it's kind of bury a lot of stuff. And so I was a little apprehensive to go back to that period of my life. But that this is actually a really happy time for me and thinking about all that stuff, and I don't want to be emotional. And so when I was talking to my wife Helena, she's like, You gotta do this, you have to you have to go and you know, have have this discussion, and she thought it was really cool what you were doing.

Miriam:

Um, that's cool.

Ryan:

So good thing we're we're like we're we were G-rated generally, or maybe G13. We'll get into that. No, because good thing I have you on headphones, and you know, my 13-year-old, my Tom's gonna be 14 in three weeks, which is insane. Wow. So he's almost my son is almost the age of like close to where we met. Wow. And I look at him, I'm like, he wouldn't. That's just yeah, it's the kids are different now. But anyway, yeah, so keep going. So I took my gum out, I got in there, kind of the best kiss you ever had.

Miriam:

Absolutely, absolutely.

Ryan:

Uh I don't know. I I kind of maybe I I'm conflating, but I probably don't feel like I parked in front of your house, probably. Or maybe you did.

Miriam:

You parked in the driveway or like inside, because we lived in an apartment. So I think we parked weirdly in my dad's spot. I mean, it was like an early evening date.

Speaker 2:

Okay. Um, that's good.

Miriam:

Also remember, right, so you were in that musical, and I also remember that at some point early on when we were already like for real dating or whatever, uh, one of your friends, and I cannot remember who it was, it wasn't even a friend, it was like some guy at Bramber was like, Oh, flavor the week. And I was like, Wait, what? Because I think you dated like a ton of girls.

Ryan:

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I guess I kind of probably like don't think about it all that often, but I definitely was a little more probably advanced than your average teenage boy at that point, but not that advanced. Like I think through it, I'm like, wow, I could have probably gotten more activity, but I was I was always very like, you know, patient and respectable and respect. Yeah, I was always very mindful of that. That's really true, and I will get into that. Okay, all right. So uh okay, interesting.

Miriam:

I don't know who that would have been, but yes, I don't think it was a good friend of yours because I do remember John was really nice to me, and even like, what was the name of that kid that dated Elizabeth Palocca? Andrew?

Ryan:

Oh, Andrew Reisterner?

Miriam:

Yes, even he like was I mean, everyone was really like your actual friends were very, very nice to me. But some kids said that, and I remember being like, oh, whoa, weird, you know. Right. And I remember meeting up for coffee, and yeah, we didn't do you were the first person who I like, you're a lot of firsts, but you were the first person that I like took my shirt off with. Oh wow. Yeah, I was like a I remember, yeah, I was like a kid. I was 15 and I probably weighed like 90 pounds. Maybe I mean I was tiny, I like just period. You know what I mean? Like probably six months before it's like so weird. Um and and you were the first person that I fell in love with.

Ryan:

Yeah, likewise. Wow, yeah. Interesting.

Miriam:

Yeah.

Ryan:

Uh yeah, yeah. And that and that got more. I mean, that obviously is tied to the whole college thing too, but yeah. Yes. Uh how long did we date?

Miriam:

I think we dated for six weeks, Ryan. That's it. Like I can't go six weeks. No, because you went to rehab.

Ryan:

No, not then.

Miriam:

You went away. You went away because of the school.

Ryan:

So you went to a different high school. Yeah, well, no, I I did it. I don't know. I well, I did, but I think that was 11th grade.

Miriam:

I think probably you were in 11th grade. I was a sophomore. You were 18.

Ryan:

I thought we met it. Wait, we're not the same year? No. Oh, okay. So that's why we're the sequence.

Miriam:

Yeah, you're in a year and a half older than me. Yeah.

Ryan:

So you didn't grow you graduated uh '98? Yes.

Miriam:

I was 18 and you were 17.

Ryan:

Oh, yeah. I didn't know that you were younger than me, or I didn't connect that. And so, yeah, so so so yeah, so now I'm actually thinking more. That makes more sense. So basically, that junior year, we it was probably the fall when we met, maybe. I don't know, fall, winter, early part of that year. It was March. It was March, because I think that was the yeah, because what happened was I think I kind of like devolved into like raving and lots of drugs and lots of like stuff like that. And that was like that spring, and then I think it was like mid-summer or something when I got sent away. And yeah, huh. And I think maybe I'm just creating a narrative, but I don't recall ever like breaking up with you, or maybe I did, or maybe I was just like, I'm too busy doing drugs.

Miriam:

You did break up with me. You did break up with me, and it seemed like soon after that you went to where was it, Arizona or Utah or something like that? Arizona? Montana. Okay. Um and it did feel related to like you were doing ecstasy and maybe cocaine?

Ryan:

Yeah, and math and you're doing whatever else.

Miriam:

Wow, all right.

Ryan:

Well, that it was more the it was more than it was more that than the other. I don't think the other the was prevalent.

Miriam:

Ecstasy wasn't.

Ryan:

No, that was no, no, like cocaine wasn't, I don't think. Okay. Sorry, my kids are right here. Uh I don't think that was prevalent. I think it was it was the M and the E.

Miriam:

I got it. I did that. I did not know. That is new information.

Ryan:

And then, yeah, and then and you know, remember my friend Eric Rabiro? Do you remember Eric Rabiro?

Miriam:

Yes, not really.

Ryan:

Jenny Rabiro, Eric Rabiro, anyway. So I was like raving with him, and then I just kind of like fell into this bad scene of people where he was even like, these guys are awful. Like, and I just I kind of went into my hole. And so yeah, I'm I'm I don't recall that period of my life having anybody else of substance like romantic romantic room. So I don't think I dumped you for somebody else. That was just probably in my world.

Miriam:

Yeah, and I also think when you're so young, like I don't even think something really happened.

Ryan:

Yeah, I think it was like no time, but also it's like if even there's a small issue, you break up because you don't know the context of like sure that it was I I feel like that you're I don't know if it was just our relationship or a friendship, I just felt like there was a lot more time in that part of my life, and it wasn't just like six weeks.

Miriam:

I mean, we saw each other after that. Like after we broke up, we you would like come over sometimes.

Ryan:

Did I date other girls from Commonwealth? Probably. After you or before you?

Miriam:

Before me, you dated Alice Ricks.

Ryan:

Oh Alice, that's her name. Briefly. Trizy hair.

Miriam:

Yes, and you dated, but I don't think after that I recall.

Ryan:

I don't think there's anybody else.

Miriam:

You left with a foreign exchange student, but that was before.

Ryan:

That was before. That was before. That's that's a weird that's another weird one. Um yes, I do think the actual like dating was very brief, but like, yeah, we just like but the connection was just like but like I guess the significance you played in just generally in that early part of my life. I just it it seems like it was years and years and years. I don't know. Totally crazy. Yes, I alright, but I guess when you're that age, everything seems to be moving slow. It's like nowadays I wake up, I'm like, oh shit, nine months gone by. What did I do with my life?

Miriam:

Yeah. Um, and yeah, we just like went in emotionally, so interesting. And I do remember us writing letters a little bit when you were away. Okay, and then you came back to town after a while of being gone. Yeah, maybe a year, and you took me to rent.

Ryan:

To frent to Rent. Oh, I remember that. Doesn't your cousin, wasn't he in the show or your relative? No. No, come on. No, you knew somebody in in the show. I knew you had, I thought you knew somebody.

Miriam:

I mean, Nina Simone's daughter was Mimi, I remember, but no.

Ryan:

You mean you weren't, oh you know, I'm yeah, I think I'm thinking.

Miriam:

You're conflating me with another Miriam.

Ryan:

Um another Miriam.

Miriam:

Yes, I remember we went to see it and then we walked around Boston Commons or Boston Gardens, and we held hands, but we didn't kiss.

Ryan:

Okay.

Miriam:

And then we yeah, we weren't together, and then uh in the fall of '98, when I started college, I remember I went to the library and my sister Jessica was staying with me, and there was like one phone per dormro. Obviously, I didn't have a telephone. So I went to the library, and my I came back late, and my sister was like, Miriam. Guess who called you? And she said it super intensely, and I was like, Ryan. And I like guessed it. And it was correct. Yes.

Ryan:

That was uh 98. That was all of 98. Okay, so I was already, I think, at you were in San Francisco, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I called your dorm phone.

Miriam:

Well, you called my dorm phone, and I had not told you where I was going to college. And so you called and you said, I knew you were smart, so I checked the directory of every Ivy League school plus MIT.

Ryan:

Wow.

Miriam:

Yeah. And then so you like tracked me down.

Ryan:

So kind of a stalker, but okay.

Miriam:

Well, what are you gonna do? I mean, it's like either stalker or now it would be like, you know, finding me on Instagram.

Ryan:

Yeah, but yeah, exactly.

Miriam:

And it was very welcome stalking. And I because I totally had never gotten over you at all. Like it had been like three years. That's why I was like, you know, I guessed it was you. And then we talked on the phone like uh for hours.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Miriam:

And I didn't talk to you in a long time.

Ryan:

Yeah, so this would yeah. Oh wow. Interesting. Because I think I just maybe broken up with somebody. Maybe I did or did not talk about that, but I think I was dating some like crazy born-again Christian. I don't know.

Miriam:

Oh god, I sort of remember that. I s yes, yeah, maybe. Or yeah.

Ryan:

Um And then I think when I I probably was like still dating her and talking to you, and then I don't know all the specifics. You have a better memory than me, but I think I remember like dumping her and saying that, like, you're I can't, I need to, I need to go back to the Jews. I pulled the uh I pulled the race cultural card and her, and unfortunately, I've done that a few times.

Miriam:

But is it true or is it a lie? Is it just a way to get out?

Ryan:

No, it was probably it was a way to get out of something, but I think there was some truth, a lot of truth. I don't know. I think it was probably better for her to hear that I am not I I need to break up with her because I didn't because I just it wasn't like a her thing. It was like she can't change the fact that she's a newborn Christian. Yes. That's better than being like you're crazy. So in any event, go on. So I called you to track you down.

Miriam:

And then we talked, and then you came to New York two weeks later.

Ryan:

Yeah. Yeah, I remember taking the bus from LaGuardia or JFK or something like that. And I think I came a few times. Didn't I come more than once?

Miriam:

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ryan:

And then I was trying to transfer to Fordham.

Miriam:

You were, yeah. We like visited Fordham and stuff like that. Yeah. Um, and then yeah, I remember having a really good time in New York. I remember going to the diesel store and that was really fun.

Ryan:

Yeah, going to jazz clubs, Christopher Street. I think I still have a picture of who took of me with like this horrible diesel peacoat. You adjust it, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think my mom saw us that picture somewhere in her house. And uh I remember also at bars like on the upper west side, like college bars, and running into like somebody I went to Oxford with, some girl who was like kind of kooky, if I remember correctly.

Miriam:

I don't remember that.

Ryan:

Okay. But I do remember the dorms.

Miriam:

Yes, right, because we had to stay in the dorm.

Ryan:

Right.

Miriam:

And we weren't like at a place in our lives where we'd be like, let's spring for a hotel. It was like, nope.

Ryan:

No, no, we're staying in the dorms. Who was your roommate?

Miriam:

This girl named Suzie, and then my sweet mate was this girl named Kat that I was really good friends with. I mean, you hung out with them a bunch. Just yeah. Because you came a few times, and then also we spent like a month together in Boston. I mean, you were living with your mom and I was living with my dad. Oh, wait, we forgot a fun from part one. We forgot that you drove me home and we were just in the street, and we were making out, and my father knocked on the car door. So this is when I was 15, and he started screaming, and he's like a thick Russian accent, and he started screaming, you could get AIDS, you could get pregnant.

Ryan:

Oh, Jesus.

Miriam:

And I get out of the car and you just like raced off, and then you would never and then you never met my dad until we got back together, and then you had to meet my dad for the first time. Yeah.

Ryan:

Yeah, yeah. No, I remember that. And I remember being in your apartment. I remember looking. I guess in those days, did you call or go online to get your grades? I remember like being at your house at your apartment for some reason with your folks a few times.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Ryan:

Was that was that during like Christmas break or something? Yeah. I remember having New Year's with you.

Miriam:

Oh yeah. At Dave Panzarino's house. Yeah. We went out to dinner and then we went to a party. Who's Dave Panzarino? He was my sister's ex-boyfriend who invited me to a party that we went to after we went out to dinner. Yeah, that's a new person.

Ryan:

Back to my dad's house, and then that was weird. I don't know how you got home. Maybe I drove you home. Or I remember walking around like Comav or I don't know.

Miriam:

Yeah, we went to some party in Boston. And I remember saying to Dave Panzarino, like, I think probably that night, because I was like so overwhelmed by how much I loved you. I was like, I feel like I should do something with this. I was like, I need to like volunteer or something, like do something good for the world. And he was like, just enjoy it, you know.

Ryan:

Dave Panzerino.

Miriam:

Huh. Um, he DJ'd my Bat Mitzvah party. Um and then like you came a few times, and that was like, you know, a thing because you were in California and I was in New York. That's like a big thing. You were talking about moving, so I think that sort of made it easier. And then I was gonna come visit you, and you'd bought me a ticket, and I I thought I was coming to visit you in San Francisco, and you're like, no, no, we're going to Ojai. And I was like, what's Ojai? But anyway, I was like going to come, and then truly, like I think the night before I was supposed to leave, we broke up. Yeah, no, I think we broke up.

Ryan:

We, it was a mutual?

Miriam:

I think so, yes. I think that that one was.

Ryan:

Yeah, I have no idea why.

Miriam:

I don't know why either. I think I mean I don't because I don't really remember was this your sophomore year or freshman year? My freshman year of college. I do not remember us like fighting, just because it was long distance, but I think there was some conflict, or maybe it was like just too hard, or maybe you had decided not to go to Fordham. I don't know.

Ryan:

I don't remember.

Miriam:

I mean, I do think that at that age it was kind of like if anything felt hard, it was like, well, I guess it's just not meant to be. It went in both directions. It was like if you love somebody, it's like you're getting married. And if you have any issue whatsoever, it's like, oh, we gotta break up. Like it was just very dramatic. But I do remember yes, completely. There was no like, let's have some patience, let's work it out, let's work it out. Let's try at all. Let's have a single conversation or a bit of communication. It was just like, nope, it's over. But I do remember that being, I was upset, but I do remember it being mutual. That is my recollection.

Ryan:

Yeah. Something to do with sex because we never had sex or something. Maybe I was like frustrated with that, or I was waiting. I felt like I was like maybe there was no end game, or I don't remember.

Miriam:

Well, we were just about to hang out, so I don't know. And I do think if we'd stayed together, I would have had sex view. Um I don't remember that, but you certainly never voiced that.

Ryan:

Yeah, I never would have voiced that. Okay.

Miriam:

Um Right, except for if you broke up with me about it, then it's sort of like the same thing.

Ryan:

I don't know what it could have been. I could have could have been lots of things.

Miriam:

Yeah, and you also could have met somebody, and yeah, whatever it was. You also could have been sick of like Danny Silmong distance. Like, there's a lot that wasn't communicated, but it is interesting that I was like just about to go see you.

Ryan:

Talk more year, yeah.

Miriam:

There was a lot of there was a lot that was like dramatic in our relationship in general. So it was sort of like in line with that. But like the fact that it wasn't like after the trip or during the trip, it was just like right before I was getting on a plane. It's like, okay, rom com, like relax.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Miriam:

But but maybe it was sort of like, well, what's the point if this is gonna keep being hard? And then you didn't end up moving to New York.

Ryan:

I did. Oh, I did.

Miriam:

Later, later, later, later, but not you didn't transfer. So maybe it was also sort of like deep down, you were like, I don't want to transfer.

Ryan:

Yeah, I'm just trying to think where I was sophomore year. I think that's when I started to make a lot of I think I made a lot of really good friends. And I think that was a driver. That was your freshman, my sophomore year. I'm trying to think what I did for the summer of sophomore year.

Miriam:

I think you might have gone to Israel.

Ryan:

I think that was my junior. That was my junior year.

Miriam:

Okay. I think I do remember my summer.

Ryan:

No, summer you're right. No, summer. Yeah. So I think I probably because I met like my best friend Nick Priola. I found found like my.

Miriam:

Oh, that's when you met him. Got it.

Ryan:

Yeah, I met him, and then I went, and then I after we broke up, I dated this other girl who's I remember that girl, yeah.

Miriam:

Oh, but I remember her name. I'm not gonna say it, but yeah, I remember her. Oh, I thought Talia.

Ryan:

Oh, that's in Israel.

Miriam:

In Israel, that's what I'm saying. Yeah.

Ryan:

Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I met another girl before I went to Israel. Okay. And we were gonna stay in touch and we were gonna like stay together. And then I remember like like the first week I was in true, and I like wrote her weather, I'm like, we're Done.

Miriam:

Sure, like again, again, I'm gonna be with the Jews.

Ryan:

Right. I am with the Jews. She was um and uh yeah, I think that was probably why we broke up. I just I was like, oh, I'm not gonna move to New York because I'm having I'm I got a good group here.

Miriam:

Yes. And that was like maybe hard to say. I also think you were sort of always somebody, and you've changed a lot, but you were somebody who was like, Well, what's that over there? Well, what's that over there? Like you had a lot of life to live. So I think it was also just like, why work on something?

Ryan:

Right.

Miriam:

Especially long distance, if like I can have another experience, which obviously you did, you know. And I remember sophomore year, you said you wanted to get back together. And I said no.

Ryan:

Junior or sophomore?

Miriam:

I was a sophomore, you must win a junior.

Ryan:

Oh, yeah. I think that's when I pulled the Jew card again on this other girl I was dating who was a Gentile. We used to call her the pterodactyl. So that was like right before I met Alina, I think.

Miriam:

Yeah, no, totally. Um, I have that track record with a lot of people that I'm like the person they were with before they meet the person that they marry and are with for the rest of our lives.

Ryan:

Um what that means about you? I have not. Okay. That's your homework. That's your homework.

Miriam:

I'm a little I'm a preparer.

Ryan:

Um yeah, no, I remember that. Yeah, I remember exactly. I wanted to get back to you because I was in that horrible pterodactyl, and then I broke up with her, and then yeah, Matt WR and Madalina.

Miriam:

Wow, that long ago.

Ryan:

Oh, yeah, we're celebrating our 19th wedding anniversary in July.

Miriam:

19th wedding and and we've been together 22 years.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Miriam:

Yeah, I remember because your wedding was on the same day as a friend of mine. Um July 4th. Yes. Like 2000...

Ryan:

2004.

Miriam:

2004. Wow. Wow, 19 years. Yes. And then every once in a while we would hang out. You you would come to New York. I met some of your friends. I saw you in San Francisco. I saw you. I remember you moved to New York and you were having like a little housewarming.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Miriam:

And and I like pre-gamed, like I just was so drunk. It was like vodka flowing. Like, I don't really drink anymore, but I was like, whoa. Um, we were all very, very drunk. And and I remember Alina and I talking, and she tells, she was like, You she was also drunk. She's like, you taught him how to love. And we were just like drunkenly bonding and like being like Russian Jewish Geminis together. Um, and I was dating someone who lived in California, weirdly at the time. And I remember being really drunk and going into your bedroom and being like, Sammy, what how do you feel about me? Like I was trying to get him to be more like emotional because it was such an emotional night. It was like a we ended up breaking up, like it was a total disaster. But yes, I remember that. And then I think we didn't see each other for a super long time. And then we saw each other like four or five years ago in San Francisco. We had dinner. And I remember you were like, Why did you want to hang out?

Ryan:

Who me or you?

Miriam:

You said that. And to me, it was like you, yeah. And to me, I was like, Cause I want to catch up. Like for me, it was seemed so normal. Like it seemed like every once in a while we would hang out. You were somebody who's very important to me. Um but yeah, I think you're yeah, I think you're just like, Well, what? Maybe just I mean, it's interesting you said that thing about your past and not always wanting to like unearth it.

Ryan:

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Although, why? Like uh not just for him, I guess. What do you mean? I I don't know. Like there's a lot of a lot of pain to my father, a lot of history, my sister, and it's just you know, it's tough. Yeah, I don't I don't necessarily deal with that well, and I try to try trying to do better with all that stuff. But yeah, I don't know. I don't know why I would have made that comment. I think uh when when I saw you, I was not in a good place with my relationship. And I don't know. Uh anyway.

Miriam:

I think I like maybe particularly tend to want to like reconnect with people that were really important to me. I mean, obviously that's like what this podcast is about. Yeah. So I think for me it's there's such a purity to it. It's like, what do you mean? Like you were so important to me. But maybe not everybody's like that. And maybe especially people who are married and have kids and focus in on their like smaller life. I think I'm still very like I still make friends, like new friends like constantly. And I am connected to so many people from my childhood. And so yeah, for me, that felt so normal. Um, and I had a great time with you. And I remember like remembering that you're very funny. And I actually did want to oh go ahead. Well, I did want to ask you about how you've changed a lot.

Ryan:

How have I changed since when? Since college, since high school, since I saw you last.

Miriam:

There was a change in you. Uh you know, like you went to art school.

Ryan:

Oh, yeah, and then I completely pivoted away from that.

Miriam:

Yes. And so you have changed since I met you and you were like starring in a musical and you won a photography award and you were like Yeah.

Ryan:

Yeah, no, I I don't know. I just I had a bad experience in art school where professors just like, you're not really talented, like what are you doing here? Whoa Jesus. That's crazy. Yeah, and then I was like, well, okay, maybe I should try something different. This is I've been doing, you know, been doing this performing arts, visual arts since I was in high school, and maybe I need to try something different. And and that's when I went to University of San Francisco, and and then Alina influenced me a lot in terms of like what I'm gonna do with career-wise and professionally, and obviously just the friends and the people I kind of associated with were very kind of like career-driven and less arts focused, and I kind of started to like suppress that part of my life and probably not knowing who I really was still even at that point, and so just kind of like perhaps became somebody different and and uh and held that in. And then, you know, in my twenties, I started playing music again.

Miriam:

Oh, I didn't know that.

Ryan:

Yeah, and you know, kind of you know, being kind of trying to be a little, you know, kind of find those types of outlets. So yeah, no, it's interesting. And uh I don't know.

Miriam:

What if we think of you that way? Like I think of you as an artist.

Ryan:

Yeah, and I don't think of myself like that anymore. There's parts of me, and even Alina reflects on how there was creativity, there was political activism, there was that part of me as a as a young adult that that's starting to come back. I mean getting more involved in philanthropy, and I'm on a board with a community, you know, a community organization here in San Francisco called the Evil Free Loan Association, which is really interesting. Uh, we do interest-free lending to the Jewish community. Actually, Alina and a lot of the her community benefited when they were immigrants, you know, in terms of interest-free loans. And so I'm getting more back into that. And you know, that that's exciting. But yeah, the the artistic, creative uh part of me is yeah, it's just not really a part of me anymore.

Miriam:

I mean, I'm sure it is like you're a creative, you're a creative person, you know. That's that's not gonna go away.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Miriam:

Oh, there was something. What else, girl? What else? Um, there was something that we talked about that we sort of briefly touched on when we had dinner, which was I brought up the fact that I was like so surprised because I hadn't had sex when we dated both times. I'd never had sex before, and did not feel ready. Certainly not when I was 15, but even when I was 18. Like I waited, I waited to have sex. And I'm actually super glad I did, because by the time I did, I was like super ready. And that I think it's like helped me have a very healthy relationship with sex. I'm glad I did not sort of like rush it, which I do think most people do.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Miriam:

And I remember bringing up to you that I was like surprised and impressed that you didn't pressure me.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Miriam:

And you were like, Well, I was really in love with you, and you said you weren't ready, so that was that.

Ryan:

Yeah, that was. And uh Yeah, I think when you made the comments to me about you know, maybe we were drinking, maybe not, I don't know, like in terms of your you know experiences as an adult sexually and a few different things, I was like a little taken back because that's not how I know you. Uh and taken aback, like um like that's not like I didn't feel like that was you.

Miriam:

Oh. Interesting. So like uh kind of it was like sort of upsetting.

Ryan:

Yeah, yeah. Maybe it was a combination of knowing you in a different in a in a you know, having a view of you when we were younger, not thinking of you in that capacity of like, you know, hyper sexuality. Yeah. Uh and I'm like, oh wow, like that's not how I remember you. And I never, you know, part of me was probably like, wow, I I wish I had had that experience with you too.

Miriam:

Yes. Yeah.

Ryan:

Yeah. I think that's what I was thinking about. Got it.

Miriam:

Yes. That came a little later. You you missed that, yes.

Ryan:

Okay. No, that's fine. Yeah, I look back on like, you know, teenage sex and it's kind of a mess and wasn't worth a whole lot. So you made the right moves.

Miriam:

Yeah, and I I feel like my again, like my healthier relationship with it does have a lot to do with that weighting. And so I am grateful to you that you didn't pressure me because I honestly maybe would not have the same relationship to it had you pressured me. Because I loved you too. So I think I probably would have been like, okay, yeah, of course, like, yes, sure, at some point. So I do actually think it worked out well for me. Yeah. Um I will say that I think like I like to sort of think about like how a relationship like affected each of us in our lives. And like for me, I think there's something because you know, like you were like ground zero for love and ground zero for a relationship. And I do think I kind of continued to have this attraction to big love and like uh and maybe even addict energy and charisma. And I in the past couple years was with somebody who um, oh, there's a hummingbird. Um that's significant that there's a hummingbird, just when I started talking about this person. Okay. Um, no, and yeah. Um, who was very much that, like very much addict and very much big love and very much like intense and full on. And uh yeah, I think I thought about you in that relationship because it was like, oh, this is where this came from. Um did, and maybe even as like uh also I think in part like you were very different from my family. And I think I really liked that as like an escape from my family.

Ryan:

Yeah, and it was a similar experience, and there was obviously I have a uh what's the right word? What's the uh I have a I have a type. Yeah. And uh, you know, you're very part of much, you're you're very much a part of that, and so is my wife. And you guys are have a lot of similarities just in life experience and culture and which is completely opposite to how I was raised and my experience. Yeah. I feel like you guys are kind of kindred spirits, similar life experiences, but very different family oriented. I mean, I don't know. I I we never talked, like, is your uh have you has your have your parents embraced your lifestyle choice and what you do in terms of you know, still very I assume, you know, acting art. Yeah. Like are they supportive or have they been like, you gotta go make a living, you gotta go be rich, you gotta go start a family, you need to have kids, you're over 40, and what the fuck are you doing?

Miriam:

I'm over 40? I'm 16. Um I don't know.

Ryan:

So like I feel like that's been probably a part of Alina's experience, which I don't necessarily I feel like that's where No, that's part of that's been part of experience.

Miriam:

That's been part of experience. For sure. Yeah, no, no, no, for sure. They're like, yeah, my sisters are different. My sisters like fell in line and did that and got married and each had two kids and like make money and all that.

Ryan:

Right.

Miriam:

Um and they my parents would prefer that.

Ryan:

Yeah. Right. Sure.

Miriam:

Yeah. But it also feels really good to like be who you are. And there's that was part of moving to California was like strengthening that and like not yeah, not just doing what they wanted me to do. Cause I've been like this since I was born. Yeah. So it's like feels good. I actually feel more myself than I did for like ages like 24 to 34. Yeah. Yeah. I think I I think I sort of returned to being more like myself than when I was like working in an office and all that stuff.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Miriam:

Yeah. Is there anything that you would want to say to me?

Ryan:

Yeah. I mean, you you were a very, very important part of my life and still have a very important part in my life.

Miriam:

So Yeah, me too. I sometimes feel like I I wanna like there is a total boundary with me. Like I know that like how do I say this? Like, I don't want you to feel uncomfortable with me saying like I really care about you and you played a really significant part in my life.

Ryan:

No, that that that doesn't that that's a good thing that makes you feel good. I'm just uh I'm just you know, we're we brought up a lot here.

Miriam:

Yes, yeah. No, I know.

Ryan:

And I really, you know, I don't necessarily get this vulnerable a lot thinking about this type of stuff. I mean, I do with other parts of my life when it comes to like my family and my children, and yeah, I don't know. I just it's gonna be an interesting rest of my day.

Miriam:

Well, I really, really, really appreciate it. Because yeah, if if this wasn't like totally easy to do, then um yeah, I appreciate you doing that for this project. That's super important to me. Yeah.

Ryan:

Yeah, no, that this was this was cathartic and interesting and will probably have profound impact to me. Uh can you can we turn off the recording, please? Yes, absolutely. 100%.

Miriam:

You like drugs, you like God. You like drugs, you like God. You like drugs, and you like God.

Rachel:

Thanks for having me.

Miriam:

This is Rachel. We went to high school together. Rachel's gonna give us a little lowdown on her experience of being friends with me while I was dating Ryan. And you had asked me how we met. You don't remember how we met? No. Not I mean, I know it was through. We met at a Commonwealth Brimmer basketball game. Oh. That I think you were probably at. We did everything together. Yeah. Yes. And he and I talked about that. And he was wearing like raver clothes, and I thought it was very hot. And then he asked for my phone number.

Rachel:

I remember that. Oh, cool. But I don't remember the starting, like whether you were like, Oh, I'm so excited. And I can't, I remember once you were in it. Okay, so talk about that. That's the most important thing. You were just like starry-eyed. Yeah. And in a way, and I'd seen you, I mean, we talked about boys all the time. And so

Miriam:

Yeah, we should give an Alex Kirchwey a shout-out. Yeah. If you're listening, Alex.

Rachel:

Yes. So it wasn't like I'd never seen you be like, oh, you're so cute. Oh my gosh, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But this was different. It was serious. And you were serious. But you were also joyful. Like it was, and I think maybe a little overwhelmed, or you seemed a little overwhelmed, like not in a bad way, but in a these are a lot of big real feelings. And I'm 15 and I know 15 is young, but it's really real.

Miriam:

Yeah.

Rachel:

Yeah. And just I I remember feeling very struck by that and kind of like kind of like, whoa, because I had not experienced anything close to that. And you were just so short. Like you just knew you were like, I I'm in love with him. And I know I'm young and blah, blah, blah, but this is real. And like I will, this will always be the truth.

Miriam:

Yeah. I wrote in my journal, dear 35-year-old self, don't be condescending. I am in love with him.

Rachel:

Yes. I feel like you might have read that to me or told me or said that ex because yeah, that's what I remember. You were like, when I'm grown up, I'm not gonna look back on this and say, Oh, that was a silly little, like I'm going to acknowledge and remember. I mean, I don't think you said acknowledge and remember, but um you knew it was something special. And you just really like rolled around in it metaphorically. You really like you really reveled in the feeling. It seemed like. Do you remember any details? I don't think that I no, not particularly I don't think I met. I mean, I'm sh I know I met him, but I don't think I hung out with him. Yeah, I mean I didn't like a bring him by school or anything like that. Um I remember you talking about sex and because like it was so intense, like you guys just wanted to eat each other up. Yes, but you weren't you didn't want to have sex with him, or like you weren't ready. Or like I think you did. I think you said, I feel like, and uh it could be memory playing tricks, but I feel like I remember you saying, like, I want to, but I know it's not like I am not, I can't I can't, I it's not time. It's I'm not ready. I was definitely not ready, but like the level of intensity of the feelings was there for sure. Yeah. And like I don't remember how it ended. We hardly remembered how it ended, though.

Miriam:

Um like he called me, he was starting to like do drugs, and yeah, I think I just felt distant from him. I mean, the whole relationship was extremely short, but I felt distant from him. And then he called me, and like by the end of the conversation, we were broken up, but like I didn't understand what really happened. Um, and then he went to rehab soon after that. But I do remember it was just like he was he seemed very cool and very advanced. And I think that was probably the overwhelmed. The feelings were overwhelming. He seemed so like big and exciting and major. And I was like kind of keeping up. Was he RH? No, he said he was 17. Okay, which is a big difference. Yeah, I mean, it was a year and a half, it wasn't two years, but it was a big difference. And also he'd had sex like with a bunch of people. Like he was yeah, and he did a lot of drugs and he went to raves and he went to concerts. Yeah, he just he had a job. I mean, I guess I actually had a job too. I worked at a clothing store, but he just for some time. No, that was serendipity. But yeah, he just seemed so much past me.

Rachel:

Yeah, it felt major, like and oh almost like you couldn't believe like, yeah, he seemed older and cooler, and like, how is this happening? Yes, but also so short, like he adored you and you knew that, at least for a time.

Miriam:

No, no, absolutely. I but I I think you you're on to saying when you say, I can't believe it. I couldn't believe it. Yeah, I couldn't believe that it was happening to me because I'd always wanted it. And then I couldn't believe that this cool, hot guy who was very popular, liked me.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Miriam:

And I actually think it was a turning point for me in relationships because I wish I'd said this to him, but he'll hear this. Yeah. Hi, Ryan. I do think it gave me confidence that I have to this day. Honestly. Yeah. I think it was like I can get anyone. Seriously. I can get Ryan. Yeah. No, honestly, yeah. That is absolutely you can't say his last name, so say it again.

Rachel:

If I can get Ryan, I can get anyone. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. No, but that that is potent when someone that is a a fantasy to you, and then I mean, not that I ever knew him beforehand, right?

Miriam:

But the idea of him. And I think the cool thing more than anything, he just seemed so cool. And I think I cared about cool. Yeah. And he was so magnetic. And I think a lot of girls liked him. And I think I was like, oh my God. Yeah, it was extremely validating. Yeah. And I found him so hot and cool and funny and fun. It was very exciting. And yeah, very intoxicating to have someone like that like you. Do you have pictures? He actually just sent me a couple pictures of him around that time. And it's so funny to see how little he looks. You could probably have some pictures of us because we dated again in college. I think I have more pictures of that probably somewhere, but not like on my phone. My picture, I'm an M. Yeah. That's not a bad. That's not bad. Okay. Yeah. Because he had bleach blonde hair. Yeah. And shaped kind of, right? Or short. Yeah. Yeah. That's really a funny. Yeah. And like that kind of swagger. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I know. And he's like, it's always been the a big story of my life. Yeah. And that's what what I love about that. I said that to you, and that I said it in my journal, that I was like, oh, this is such a big deal. And I still believe like that's still true. It was a huge deal. You were right.

Rachel:

15-year-old, you was right.

Miriam:

Yeah, it's cool when you know, you know, because I think there's so many things that you think are a big deal when you're a kid that are not. But it's cool to not like just condescend to yourself.

Rachel:

And because certain things that are a big deal are a big deal. Yeah. And those, I mean, even the things that aren't a that now we say, oh, that wasn't a big deal. It was a big deal then. It did it. But a lot of those things now looking back, you're like, it doesn't feel like a big deal now, but he still feels like a big deal now.

Miriam:

Yeah. No, it was extremely exciting. And I think that we were, you and I were kids together. Yeah. Freshman year, we were really kids. And I remember hanging out near Copley Square, and there were some skaters around. It was the end of freshman year, and a skater boy kind of like used a pickup line on me. And it was the first time anyone had ever done that. And it was like extremely exciting. And that was like six months before this. So to like have a boy like go up to me fully. Yes. Was like to be that big a deal. And then for this, that was a much bigger deal that happened so soon after. It was like there's a lot of things happening.

Rachel:

But yeah, we were such we were such kids. And I think a part of me felt a little bit threatened about like I felt like you were pulling away. Like Miriam's in this new orbit that I cannot conceive of yet. I'm just not a part of it yet.

Miriam:

But I think we probably both had that at different moments with each other because you like, can I say that you took something?

Rachel:

Oh, what I had mushrooms. Oh, yeah.

Miriam:

I just don't know what people are down with. But I just remember like you taking mushrooms was this big like step or whatever. And I was like, well, I don't know what that is. You know, like I think everyone's having these different moments of like playing in grown-up time. It's like, how much are you shoplifting? How much are you getting in trouble or whatever it is? And both of us were like super good kids. But um I know.

Rachel:

Remember when we smoked pot and we both had panic attacks? Oh yeah.

Miriam:

I mean, we're we did not know. We could not hang. Oh my god.

Rachel:

I called my mom.

Miriam:

Oh god, I couldn't have done that. But yeah, I it did feel like this. I could see how that would make you feel like a little alienated from me.

Rachel:

Because it was like such a private It wasn't, I mean, it wasn't a a big break, but it was just like, oh, oh, this is it's almost like someone getting their period or getting abroad or having sex before you do. And you're like, yeah.

Miriam:

Yeah. Well, love is like, yeah, it's a big deal.

Rachel:

It's a big deal.

Miriam:

Yeah. And it is a really big deal when you are that age instead of like even like 20 or something. Oh yeah. It's just like, yeah, it's super overwhelming. And I did feel like I was in a movie, and I did feel like I now knew what people were talking about. Yeah. In a way that's different than I think the first time I had sex. Yeah. And yeah, I think I was, especially when we dated again when I was a freshman, I was like, oh, well, you marry these people. Airily remember that. I dated him. Did he live in New York? No. He lived in San Francisco and he tracked me down. He didn't even know where I went to college. He looked up all the Ivy League schools and MIT in the directory and found me. And we talked on the phone all night the night he called, and then he came two weeks later from California. And then we dated most of freshman year.

Rachel:

I yeah, that was off. I was that was off my radar.

Miriam:

Yeah, you you were living in Boston. Yeah. No, we were we got back together. It was like all I had wanted because I never got over him. Do you kind of remember me pining over him? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel:

Yeah. I mean, but I also remember you being accepted. It wasn't you weren't like, oh, I want you wished things were different so that you guys could still like be together. Yeah. But you knew that it could it couldn't.

Miriam:

Yeah. I had some weird acceptance around a lot of things, oddly, because there was all this drama around like a couple girls being mad at me that I had dated him. That was that's what I remember. Yeah. And I, even though that was very sad, and the summer between sophomore and junior year was like kind of sad, and I I like looked at going to Ringe and all these other things. I looked at leaving the school. I think I weirdly had some odd acceptance about the whole thing. Like there was some really I felt more grown up after Ryan.

Rachel:

Yeah. Which is cool. You seemed grown up with the way because you you you did miss him.

Miriam:

Yeah.

Rachel:

But yeah, there was this acceptance of he, you know, he's doing he's in a place and he's doing things that he needs to do. And I like we just can't, like, we just can't right now. Yeah. And that's sad. But I'm so glad that it worked for that you connected for the time that you did. Wow, it's cool to hear you say that because I I definitely relate that to Rob.

Miriam:

That's really cool that that like existed.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Miriam:

Even then. That's pretty crazy. Cause I think like immediately after Rob, my major feeling was like, I was so glad that that happened.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Miriam:

So there might have been some kind of like uh ground zero for that. There were some things that, yeah, Ryan reminded me of. Rob, Rob reminded me of Ryan. Um, but yeah, I think that's cool that I had that. And like it's cool when you have that kind of thing naturally. It's not like you're like, oh, I'm gonna foster that. Yeah. I just kind of naturally was like, oh, I'm so glad I had that experience, even though it's painful that he's gone.

Rachel:

It was all kind of very organic. I feel like like I can think of experiences and things that we did in high school that we manufactured, that we made happen. Like, well, I can't do anything. Like Spice Girl day. Like dressing up like Spice Girls and walking down Newberry Street with a boom box. Yeah. And like every time the music stopped, we'd freeze and strike a pose. Or like the no biggie stickers. Like we gave it this meaning. Yeah. Yeah. They don't mean anything. Yeah. Oh, that's funny. I mean, things that they it does mean something now because we gave it that meaning and like I remember it so fondly. But that whole situation, it wasn't us like sitting around like, hmm, let's kind of like Oh, yeah.

Miriam:

And it's funny because all the crushes that we had freshman year were so yeah, like it was like those people didn't know who we were.

Rachel:

Like Alex looks like Eeyore. Like, oh, like look at the sticker.

Miriam:

No, it's that he had an Eeyore t-shirt.

Rachel:

Oh yeah.

Miriam:

Well, he did kind of look like Eeyore too. But like, yes, I think this thing of having these outside outsized crushes on people that we didn't actually intend on asking out or talking to or having a real connection to. And there was, you're right. There's a lot of like play acting. And then that was a situation that was like, oh my God, wait, already I'm gonna like have a real love. Yeah.

Rachel:

We spent so much time talking about who was hot at our school. There weren't that many hot people at our school. Like a lot of it was quite a stretch. Yeah. But we made it work. Like we did.

Miriam:

We did. We created a high school experience. And I think we wanted to have a high school experience. So even this the dances, we made a big deal about making playlists. And yeah, we yes, I think we had a pretty, pretty good time. It was, I think we worked too hard, but um I didn't work that hard. I worked really hard. You worked really hard.

Rachel:

I had a lot of fun. Oh, cool.

Miriam:

But yeah, it was very, especially because I didn't have a crush on Ryan for months before. It's like I literally met him and he asked me out. And I was like, wait, what? Which is also maybe did some kind of um imprinting on me. Because I think I I mean I'd always sort of asked boys out. I mean, the first, you know, I asked a boy out in fifth grade and he's on the podcast. But um, I think there was a feeling of like, just do it, just make a thing happen, just move forward with a thing instead of waiting forever in the wings. I think that was something I learned from Ryan.

Rachel:

Yeah, he made it.

Miriam:

Yeah, he likes like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna live.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Miriam:

Yeah. It was really cool talking to him. It was a cool experience. Yeah. And it is so important to me to. I mean, that's what the whole podcast is, but so important to me to stay connected to people. Yeah. And it, I mean, and you're here visiting me this weekend. It's like, it's so interesting to see how people change and just see what connection still exists.

Rachel:

Yeah. And there's like that shared history, which I it makes me feel so good. It makes me feel so warm and fuzzy. But then it's also interesting to remember things and have different, like we don't necessarily feel the same way about the memories or remember something exactly the same. Or yeah, feels nice.

Miriam:

Yeah. Well, anyway, big ups to Ryan. And yeah, it's cool that you were there and hearing me be moony and excited and like overwhelmed.

Rachel:

And I remember sitting in your room, the messiest room in the entire world. And you guys made out in that room, right? And I was just like, this is the room, like, there are Winnie the Pooh things.

Miriam:

Oh, that's so funny.

Rachel:

Yeah, I didn't like try to not be who I was. Yeah. It's I didn't even think to. And this is where we've had our little girl, not little girl, but you know, young girl sleepovers.

Miriam:

Yeah.

Rachel:

And you're making out with Ryan in here. That's crazy.

Miriam:

I know his room was much more grown up. That that felt like a grown-up place to kiss. Uh yeah, cool. Cool, cool. Do you have any parting words? Um love is cool. It really is. Yeah. Yeah. And it is, it's interesting because I don't think before having this conversation, I thought about the way in which like I did mature and it it how it can like level you up and it can transform.

Rachel:

It was cool to watch. And it I felt like I learned stuff from watching, from watching you, from like listening to you, from being with you at that time.

Miriam:

What can you say? Something that you learned.

Rachel:

I think I learned that 15-year-old love is love. Like not to discount it just because I hadn't felt that. Because it stuck with me. Like you and Ryan, it was a thing. Like it didn't go away. Even when you guys split up and when we both dated other people, it was still very much an event. Yes. Amazing. Thank you. Thank you.

Miriam:

Okay, Rachel had an additional question she wanted to make sure to ask.

Rachel:

Well, so you you and Ryan didn't have sex when you dated in college. What? Had you had sex? I wasn't ready. No, that's totally fine. I still weighed like 90 pounds.

Miriam:

I literally think I might have weighed 90 pounds. I wasn't ready to have sex.

Rachel:

Like was that like you hadn't had no sex?

Miriam:

No, no, no, no. Okay. You had already had sex. I did not have sex.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Miriam:

I had I had sex for the first time my senior year in college.

Rachel:

Oh, yeah. Okay.

Miriam:

I was really and that was overkill. And this is um cliffhanger, because I will certainly interview that person. But yes, I could have before if Ryan and I had dated maybe my junior year of college. Yeah. Possibly even sophomore year. But freshman year, I was still a child. And we did other things. Yeah. No, we didn't. And it's, and we talk about it in the interview because it's like pretty incredible that he didn't pressure me. Because I think it was good for me personally. I don't think this is true of everyone. I think some people are good at like surpassing themselves. Yeah. But I could not have pushed myself and been and done it when I was just a little before being ready. For me, I needed to be like a billion percent ready. Yeah. And having been a billion percent ready made the first time for me awesome and healthy.

Rachel:

Yeah, because you do, you're not someone who diters. Like you do stuff. If you want to do stuff, you do stuff. So if you didn't want to, if you weren't ready, like you weren't fucking ready. Yeah, I wasn't. But I guess I, when you were telling me about how you guys talked about sex stuff, I was just thinking about high school. I right. And no, no.

Miriam:

Um no, he waited. He really waited. And he actually said in the interview, there's a world in which when we broke up the second time, it was about that, but he never said it. Yeah. He can't really remember. I can't really remember. But you know, we were also talking about how in early relationships, you just kind of, if there's like any issue whatsoever, you're like, I guess we have to break up. I guess we're done. Yes. Either like we're getting married or it's done. Yeah, yeah. Um, but yeah, I did not, I did not feel ready. And only later did I, and I really appreciated that he did not pressure me. It is really cool.

Rachel:

Yeah, it's really cool. It's wild to me when I because I remember visiting you and I thought you were the most grown-up. You were living in the city, you were wearing our black pants and our sparkly tube tops and clubbing. And it was, I did not feel ready for that.

Miriam:

Oh, wow.

Rachel:

All like I it was fun for a night, but I didn't feel ready for that life. But yeah, I was yeah, there's different things. Doing it with my boy, like you were having sex, yeah.

Miriam:

Yeah, it's interesting what different people are ready for. I think I had a sense that it's cool the things you have a sense of. It's like I had a sense when I was 15 that it would be a big deal. And I think somewhere in me I had a sense that like I was gonna have I personally was gonna have a more sacred relationship to sex if I was really yeah, careful about it and really like yeah, took care around it.

Rachel:

Yeah.

Miriam:

Yeah.

Rachel:

Yeah. Oh, I'm glad you asked that question. Me too. I love talking about sex. Yeah. Now I'm thinking about when I had sex for the first time and all that kind of stuff.

Miriam:

That's your own podcast.

Rachel:

Very interesting. Yeah, not this podcast.

Miriam:

Stay tuned for Rachel's Ex Talk podcast. All right, that's it. Anything else?

Rachel:

That's all. Love you, bye. Love you.

Miriam:

I want you all still to answer my questions. Still wanna know. How can you be so high? Lots to say. I remember the exact outfit I wore to our first date: denim bell bottoms with a rainbow, one of my dad's Haynes undershirts, a pale blue corduroy jacket, and pale blue eyeshadow. And then on the other end of the spectrum, I definitely had to draw things out from Ryan. But by the end, as you heard, he did start to remember more and more and got more and more emotional. We ended up talking for a long time after without the mics on. Sorry. But it was so beautiful to see him getting choked up and feeling so much. And it felt so good to learn things, to clarify things, to get to tell him how much I care about him. The love was so strong between us, and that relationship showed me how intense feelings can get, and how much I love feeling that much. And it was really fun to get to talk about that with Rachel afterwards during our little gab fest. It's so nice to be able to tell the people we love how we feel. It feels like a especially in this moment in time. It is so important to revel in love when we can. Thank you for listening. Thank you for being so hot. I'll talk to you soon. Ex appeal is so real, Ex appeal is so real, Ex appeal is so real. You were open, you were closed. You were open, you were closed. Ex appeal is so real.