The Hearing God Podcast
Anthony Moore and Dan Lamos have met for coffee every week for over a decade. You're invited to listen in on their conversation on The Hearing God Podcast. Explore the prophetic, mystical, and heart-centered aspects of a life filled with the Holy Spirit. Each episode offers insights, inspiration, and practical wisdom to deepen your spiritual journey. Tune in for authentic and encouraging conversations that will enrich and empower your walk with God.
The Hearing God Podcast
1. Divine Partnership, The Secret Place, and True Humility
Questions? Fun God stories? Let us know!
We dive deep into how true humility liberates us to partner confidently with God without constantly apologizing for His work through us or minimizing our role. The distinction between unhealthy self-deprecation and authentic humility transforms how we view our participation in God's kingdom.
Welcome to the Hearing God Podcast. I'm Anthony Moore.
Speaker 2:And I'm Dan Lamas. For over a decade, anthony and I have been diving deep into weekly conversations about the prophetic, the mystical and the matters of the heart.
Speaker 1:And we invite you into these weekly conversations. We hope you feel like an honored guest at our table, so pull up a chair, settle in and let's get started. How's it going Dan?
Speaker 2:It's going pretty good. Pretty good. Yeah, you know the word humility seems to be something that's funny. Somebody saw me on Sunday. Humility seems to be something that's funny. Somebody saw me on Sunday and told me about a dream they had had and just, it was. The theme of it was humility. And I thought, well, you know, that's great, we all know about humility. But even just coming out of the prayer room just now which is, you know, we just are doing Wednesdays at 6.30, which is awesome- yeah.
Speaker 2:And we're just coming out of that. But again that word came back to me and maybe I'll throw it to you this way. I was in a meeting Monday night a Zoom meeting and the person that was leading that meeting was talking about the recent success of a project they were doing and there's a demand for what they do, and the rest of the discussion was around we were trying to help this person with some suggestions on how they could improve and market what they were doing, and they were talking about how they were surprised at the demand for it and they were saying they made this passing comment that I thought was so interesting. They said I shouldn't be surprised and I need to stop being surprised. Right, Okay, being surprised by that, and I thought what a wise statement.
Speaker 2:So when I'm thinking about humility this morning, it's along that line of just the weird thing that happens when we find out God uses us in a certain way, that there's a hunger for a thing that God does through us, and we are surprised because maybe we didn't see it about ourselves before, we thought it was just a characteristic of who I am. It's not a big deal and yet we find out lots of people want that thing. Yes, that God does through us, and I thought this person was so helpful in saying it that way. Someday I'll get over myself and stop being surprised that people want this thing that I do in Jesus' name. It's an interesting side to humility.
Speaker 1:For sure, and I don't know.
Speaker 1:I remember coming up with this thought years ago.
Speaker 1:I think this was gosh this would have been seven, eight, nine-ish years ago where God was moving here and doing a bunch of things I don't remember what specific things, but I remember it was in a season where we were starting to become aware that God's hand was on us, maybe in a different way or in an increased way, and it came out like this that we have to stop apologizing for what God is doing in our midst, as though that was.
Speaker 1:There's this weird way that we can handle or that humans process. Whether that's success or maybe that's not super articulate, but at least when the things that we've prayed for start happening, when we pray for the sick and they start to get healed, or we pray for miraculous provision and God provides, or we pray for open doors and they start to open up, it starts to be a thing where it's like, okay, there can be this sort of unsanctified thing that comes on you where you feel like you have to apologize. Yes, because there's often a stark contrast between a person experiencing the things of God and someone, maybe, who isn't, or a group of people who aren't or who are still struggling.
Speaker 1:So it's like what do you do in the middle of that? Well, the first thing that comes out is just feeling of like, well, I'm sorry about the thing that God's doing, I'm sorry it's happening to me and not you like those kinds of things, and I just really felt I don't know in this. I just remember being in a board meeting. I don't know that's an so many.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just remember being in a Like we can't, Like that's actually dishonoring to God by taking that posture of apologizing. Yeah, Like we're actually apolog and when you think about it, you're actually apologizing for the move of God. Yeah, and I was just like, well, that sounds bad, yeah, well, yeah.
Speaker 2:And what it draws up from within me is this pressure to control how that all plays out. Yeah, like the pressure to control how the story gets told. Yeah, how the story gets told. It's the silliness of you know. A person comes to me and says you know, I have pain in my life and I know that God has gifted me and helped me to gain skill and wisdom and inner healing. So how weird would it be for me to say, okay, hold, still have a seat.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know, before I even start, I just want to apologize for the fact that I'm that pretty awesome at this and I'm sorry about that uh sorry that, um, sorry that you're probably going to be sort of in awe of what god does, because he has this tendency to do this thing through me. Yeah, so I'm sorry in advance for any question you might have about that. Yeah, this is explaining a way of our participation in it, but at the core of it, what rises up in me, is a core of it, is the pressure to control that whole narrative, like to control how that all plays out. And there's such freedom. I think there's deeper and deeper freedom and I don't need to control how that plays out. That's true.
Speaker 2:Like I remember, on Sunday pastor brent preached about you know, we're sort of a big deal as the temple of the dwelling place of god. Yeah, and man, there's something to that of you know, uh, not apologizing for god's move amongst us and that he is willing to work in and through us. It's just. But there's a certain thing of control. I don't perceive myself maybe nobody does, but I don't perceive myself to be a controlling person, right, but there's a subtlety there where I do it in my inner world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course it's like there's a community in my inner world and part of my community is very willing and ready to do whatever God wants, right. And there's other parts of me that are like oh, you better be careful because you may be perceived this way, or you better make sure you're ready to answer these questions and don't forget, in your introduction, to explain away take away any suspicion about what somebody think you might mean, instead of just walking into situations, just going, okay, god's here, I'm here, you have a need, let's just invite him to meet it, right?
Speaker 1:And I think sometimes I don't know, the longer I'm at this, in the way that I'm at this, you know specifically what I do. The more I'm, the more I. There's this weird. There's this weird freeing place where it is just that weird freeing place where it is just that Like, I'm not afraid. I'm not going to say never afraid, but I'm generally not afraid or nervous about stepping into a situation where God has to come through, like, or we're inviting God to do a thing. It becomes a little bit more like let's just see what God does. Yes, right, but I'm not too worried about, I'm not too worried about my own ability to make a thing happen.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, I think so yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think it's as well. I mean again like so you know, sort of the prophetic ministry, right, like so I step into a situation going well, I know for sure that person doesn't need what anthony has to say yeah, but he needs, or he or she needs what the holy spirit has to say through me, right. And then there's a degree of like. Well, I don't quite know what that is yet, but that doesn't stop me from stepping into that situation, given a little bit of, first of all, the truth of the word right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Given the things, that even the moments that we prayed into literally like 15, 20 minutes ago in the prayer room Right. Just about God giving you the words to speak at the right moment, right. And then there's a track record, right.
Speaker 2:I have a.
Speaker 1:And this is not presumption, it's just confidence, right, that God's, and I have no idea how that's gonna come out, right, right. So I go into those moments going, god, you don't owe me anything, but yet I'm literally stepping into this moment, trusting that you love me and you love the person, and so that's what's gonna happen in this moment. You're's gonna happen in this moment You're gonna love me in that moment.
Speaker 1:You're gonna love that person in the moment. And if I'm leaning in and I'm listening, I'm gonna say that, you know, it probably won't be perfect.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:But it will be love, right.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You know it'll be what's gonna happen there. You're gonna take whatever that is, even if it comes out in maybe a little clunky way right, it's like I know clunky prayers. I think anybody who prays honestly knows clunky prayers. But that I step into those situations and I go. I'm gonna step in as Anthony Lord, with all my quirks and all my things, that all my dysfunctions or weaknesses, and you're gonna use me, you're gonna work through me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and you're gonna speak through me in that situation.
Speaker 1:So I step into that with a little bit of a you know kind of aware of my own stuff, but an awareness that God's greater than that. Yeah so that doesn't. Yeah so it doesn. God's greater than that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So that doesn't yeah. So it doesn't stop me from that. So it's yeah. I don't know if that's Well this is really.
Speaker 2:I think this is really good, for I think, from what we talked about a little bit last week, we're first of all kind of making these recordings for people we work closely with that we're giving leadership to in our church family.
Speaker 2:I mean anybody can listen to it, but we're thinking we're having in mind those people we work with and who are following us in what we're doing prophetic ministry, inner healing ministry, freedom prayer, prayer ministry, freedom prayer, prayer ministry. It's really healthy and helpful, I think, to give people a view inside of what our inner processing is. I think it's really helpful because I of what you're trying to deliver when you're delivering prophetic ministry. But then let's face it, there's a lot of our own suspicions within ourselves of questioning ourselves in the midst of that and I love what you're sharing of. Okay, I'm going to show up with my weaknesses and my strengths and God may choose to use whatever combination of those two things in this ministry time.
Speaker 2:I may feel like I was very weak in my delivery of whatever the word is. Well, the worst thing I can do is get distracted by that. The worst thing I can do is make a judgment on oh wow, that was such a great word. The way I delivered it certainly didn't measure up to how great the word was. And then we get distracted and we start bashing ourself for our weaknesses, a hundred percent.
Speaker 2:When God may be intended and loves to work with whatever combination of our weaknesses and strengths, show up. Like to him he's not worried, like he loves the fact that we're willing to show up and say I'm happy to say whatever God shows me, because I know it's helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no-transcript. But yet at the same time I don't feel there's no part of that cringey feeling that's actually redemptive.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's right.
Speaker 1:I feel at times that God's saying like I didn't feel that way, right, right, like about what happened there, right, that cringy like, oh, I wish I would have said that better, or I forgot that thing that was burning in my heart to say and it didn't come out Right. Know, that was burning in my heart to say and it didn't come out Right. And then you go, or you just, or you take a risk and you feel like you look a little silly by the thing that you do or the thing that you say and there's that cringey feeling. But that I just, you know, and I would say that, like in the because there's, it's not a the cringiness in itself, could I submit it's not from God, but I would say that it is a sign that there's an appropriate stretch right, where you've stretched beyond what you're comfortable with.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Maybe you've stepped into a situation or you've done something or spoken something that you go oh, I don't know how that landed with people or I don't know how that affected that person and that seemed a little weird, a little outside of the social norms. My opinion is that it's not the cringiness isn't helpful, other than it's a signpost that you're stretching. But God takes that and he's, first of all, god's not cringey right, god doesn't go. Oh, that was so awkward. He doesn't say that.
Speaker 2:That's like a human thing yeah.
Speaker 1:But I would just say I think that's the thing. We've been at this long enough that we've, I guess I just keep, I keep. Every time I feel that cringe, it's not long after where it's like God, I just have to let that go. Yeah, I have to leave that with you. Yeah, and if I dwell too long on it it will work to shut me up the next time. Next time I have a moment or I feel like you've led me into a moment, it will be a destructive force in my life if I improperly view that moment or at least that cringe on the other side of that moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally yeah, it's very intriguing because I do feel like the serpent in the garden is quick, it's quick to do something very weird with that cringe yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It causes us to hide, causes us to cover and to feel like wow, I'm never doing that again.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm glad God worked, but I'm never doing it that way again, right, right, yeah, I'm. I'm glad god worked, but I'm never doing it that way again, right, right, and in in the enemy's quick to come behind us and go. Nor should you. You've got to get that. Yeah, you got to get that nail before you do that again yeah and that pressure that comes on us.
Speaker 2:That is sinister, right, yes, it's like sure it'd be great to improve. But let's say I improve, that's wonderful, but that's all it is. My improving on something doesn't necessarily mean God's happier with it or that that actually enhanced the power in which I'm ministering. It would be great to. I love improving on the things I'm doing, I love learning. But the serpent comes along and says yeah, if you get better at that, you'll be more powerful.
Speaker 2:And I think we need to recognize that improving and growing and doing things better, those are all great, but it all has to be in grace. Yeah, because I fully agree my blundering in something. It'd be great if that didn't happen again, that would be great. But the judgment that I attach to that isn't okay. Agreed, but the judgment that I attach to that isn't okay.
Speaker 1:Agreed.
Speaker 2:Like the shadow that comes over my inner life because I blundered. That's not redemptive from God, that's not like here. Let me help you out with this son. I'm going to heap this shame on you, for a thing you just did.
Speaker 2:It's like no, wait a second, that is not. That's not God coming in on that and going. You know I love you son and I want you to feel really bad about that, so you don't do it again Like it's a. It's a, that's a. It's a twisted sort of return, I think, return to the knowledge of good and evil, like if you just did it this way, there'd be more power in it. It goes really weird.
Speaker 1:It's like a misordering of things. Yes, of course, examination and review, and sort of analyzing the thing that you do.
Speaker 1:It's not evil in and of itself. I think it's when it becomes misordered in that we place too much importance on that right. Of course, excellence is good, but I think it's like when we view the way in which we, when we overly view or become too. Yeah, it's like if we view incorrectly, in the wrong order, the thing in which we do and the way in which we do it as the thing like and I'm talking about maybe a natural, like the way we speak it, the words that we use, very like the physical part of what we do. When we view that in the wrong order, then we can we suddenly depend on that as the thing that accomplishes the eternal thing which we. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Like I think hopefully this is clear. It's just like when we, if I, use the wrong words or if I, it comes out in a fumbly stumbly sort of way and I look at that and I depend on those words that I used as the thing that's responsible for making the transformation or the thing that's accomplishing the good thing, then that becomes a point of condemnation and shame, especially if that comes out in a fumbly-stumbly sort of way. Right, however, if I view those fumbly-stumbly words as almost like an offering or like a step of faith, and then God comes in in the unseen and rides in on those words, then that's a right ordering of things, because then he becomes the one who rides in on those fumbly stumbly words and accomplishes. Comes the one who rides in on those fumbly stumbly words and accomplishes, uh, eternal things through, through those words or those actions right, yeah and so it's like the it's the right ordering of right, the right ordering of things.
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it's so. It's so. I think for all of us who are in the zone of, what people need is to hear God, right, like for all of us who operate in that zone of, you know, praying with someone and asking Jesus to enter their painful situation, someone in asking Jesus to enter their painful situation and then listening and letting Jesus speak to them and they share with you that whole process of inner healing prayer that way, or it's a, I have a word for you and I'm sharing it, and the Holy Spirit has brought a word through you that brings some kind of healing or freedom to them. Yeah, an attitude of I don't know in this moment whether the person hearing the word that I'm speaking to it's because they're very prophetic right now or if I'm more prophetic because I'm speaking it. It doesn't matter, yep, what matters is that we are aware of the Holy Spirit who's speaking and we're willing to receive the word he's bringing.
Speaker 2:Because, in context, we get so focused in on the moment, we're in the urgency of the pain the person's in whatever, the urgency of the pain the person's in whatever. When God is very relaxed about the unfolding of his kingdom, like it's going to be unfolding for eternity and we've only just really scratched the surface of what his new creation actually is and can do. There's so much more to explore of his new creation that we get fired up about things. God isn't, and so we get thinking in the middle of situations. This is what matters the most when God has something completely different in mind. Right, you know? Um, yeah, so somehow that that tied in for me. Uh, there's something really amazing that, um, that michael a little shout out to michael. This morning in our prayer room he prayed the coolest thing, um, and he was talking about being made in the secret place, yeah, and then then, uh, I love, I love that scripture that he, I think it was.
Speaker 1:I don't remember the psalm off the top of my head, but isn't it 139.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I was made.
Speaker 2:You were there when I was made in the secret place and then all my days are recorded before yeah, yeah, in your book, yeah, but yeah, but he honed in on the I was was made in a secret place and he said he made this statement of prayer every time we return to the secret place because he was tying together the idea of coming into the secret place to pray. You know that every time we're in the secret place, somehow you're making us, somehow you're forming us, and the mystery of that really captured me and I thought what a cool concept of man. Even the fact that we refer to going into the secret place to pray, going in near to God's heart, inviting Jesus into our, the deepest part of who we are, but the but the formation is still happening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and they're potentially that's going to continue for eternity. Right, that there is a making. That always happens in the secret place. Yes, and I was really caught up in the being renewed you know Colossians talks about. We've put on the new self, which someone could think from a kind of Greek philosophical point of view, that if I've put on the new self then it's pristine and complete, right, right and it shouldn't ever need any more improvement. But Paul is very clear, saying you've put on the new self which is being renewed. Yes, so the new self we have in Christ is in constant renewal.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And immediately I thought, wow, so if I neglect the secret place then I'm going to be missing a lot of that renewal. Like there could be renewal happening and available, but I'm oblivious to it. Yeah, Because I don't return to the secret place. Yes, I thought, man, what a powerful idea.
Speaker 1:That is powerful, is powerful. I think that's the, that idea, that that is when we go to the place of prayer, when we go to the Word, when we are with God. I was hit a little bit with this thought of like here I am sitting in a room with a bunch of people in this secret place, right, right, yes, and I could be in a crowd of people, right. And yet when my attention and my heart go to beholding Jesus, they go to conversation, intimacy, connection with the Lord. That's the secret place. Yes, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it doesn't necessarily.
Speaker 1:I mean it could. I mean we go to isolated places to eliminate distraction, and that's all helpful, right, but there's not the. I would say that Can we remove geography from the secret place, from our understanding of the secret place? Yeah, yeah, Like it might be that you go to a certain place all the time to be with the Lord, whether that's nature, whether that's a room with a closed door and a turned off phone or whatever. But I think, if it's not, the secret place really is that place within us where we connect with God, and the idea that the formation, our formation, continues in that place is such a For anybody listening.
Speaker 2:This is wild.
Speaker 1:For anybody listening.
Speaker 2:I would like to repeat what Anthony just said, because it's huge, the secret place is really within us. That's huge, that right there. This is why I could be on the subway, I could be in a quiet room praying with a couple of friends, I could be by myself, I could be in the mall, I could be in traffic, doesn't matter, I can go to the secret place. I can go because it's within me.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's that place within you where Dan is commingled with.
Speaker 2:God and Anthony is commingled with God.
Speaker 1:That's the place.
Speaker 2:Like how many times and how many people in the church think they have to go somewhere outside of themselves to find the secret place. God has arranged it and this is so powerful and mysterious but real.
Speaker 2:God has arranged it that he has come his secret place, the secret place, the refuge at the heart of God has chosen in God's plan to create human beings, so that God's dwelling place is within every person. Yes, is within every person. Yes, and man? It's like we think that when we've discovered that we've come to the pinnacle of everything, yeah, and God goes. No, I'm just really bringing you back to the way I designed it. Yeah, like these thousands of years that have passed on the calendar, is really God, through Christ, bringing humanity back to the place where we go? Yes, your secret place is in me and my secret place is in you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And this is the way it's supposed to work. Yes, so now live it Now, go ahead and manage my creation, because this is the way it's supposed to work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know. Yeah, you know. There is a place where, like it's the place where I am, you know, I am my beloved's and he is mine. It's like I am in Christ and Christ is in me. It's this exchange. You know it's this, but it's two-sided right, yeah. You know, and so I just I find it's this meeting place, it's a place of meeting.
Speaker 2:I guess, oh man, who's the man who did the paraphrase Passion Bible, brian Simmons. Shout out to Brian Simmons for the phrase life, union with Christ. Yeah, yeah, yeah, if you are in life union with me.
Speaker 1:Jesus said Anyway, sorry, it just reminded me. No, no, no. Yeah, if you are in life union with me. Jesus said Anyway, sorry, it just reminded me. No, no, no, no that's good.
Speaker 2:Is that life? Is it in Christ or is it Christ in me?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, yes, right, it's life union with.
Speaker 2:Christ, yeah, that's the design.
Speaker 1:And I think that that's what he I mean. There's so much imagery over the years and or over time and over creation and over the scripture, that there's so much imagery about marriage and how that's a shadow of the thing, that of Jesus in the church. Uh, you know, and so I just congrats.
Speaker 2:Justin and.
Speaker 1:Debbie. But like there is a, you know if you read, you read, uh, the divine romance Gene Edwards. It's such a great book of that union, that romance, like this whole story of God coming and being one, and it's like there's a oneness that's there's an intimacy and a connection, that's there's an intimacy and a connection in her. It's very, it's a very moving, you know, book, but the imagery there is like the fullness of what god is looking for. Is that oneness, that?
Speaker 2:that place of unity and that's wow and I think that that that's found.
Speaker 1:I think we maybe there's a time where that will be and I think we believe that there was a time where we will see, perhaps, the fullness of that one day, right Like either when we breathe our last and are before him or he comes back. There's a fullness, perhaps that we will see to that, but that's the reality of this thing that we're talking about is available today. Yes, it's available now.
Speaker 2:Yes, right, yeah. The only thing that makes any moment worthwhile for the kingdom is that fullness breaking in on us in 2025. Us in 2025.
Speaker 1:It's in the moment.
Speaker 2:The only thing that makes any moment powerful is that fullness. You're talking about coming from the future right into this moment. It's the kingdom. The kingdom has come, it's been accomplished, but it's not fully yet, but we're in the in between, but we definitely are anchored to the future. We're anchored to the fullness. So when I, in my fumbly or in my strengths, do something and a person has an encounter with Jesus, where they're in pain or stuck in darkness, the future just busted in on our moment?
Speaker 2:For sure it's not. I'm not hauling something in from the past. Yes, and gathering my resources. It's when the future just broke in on us, and I find myself just as in awe yeah, agreed, as the person I'm ministering to that that just happened and we're like whoa, Okay, I'm shaking my head, but nobody on the mic can hear me shaking my head, but my jaw kind of drops with it because God just did that right here, and so I love that it's a discovery.
Speaker 2:I love that it's a discovery. It's just that beauty of. God doesn't want me to get distracted by what's falling away, Like what you know, in a moment when, man, that was really great. You know what we could do better next time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's like well, yeah, maybe, but that's sort of a distracting thought to me. Yes, Like you know that didn't happen because I did it right or didn't do it right. It's a.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and can I say that?
Speaker 1:Like humility, like the better that we are, whatever, yeah, let's just say that, like our humility, how well we do with that, is actually a predictor maybe of how those moments will go for you, right, either you'll take yourself out of those moments by leaning to one ditch or the other, like we talk an awful lot about humility, like if you've heard me teach on humility, you know it's the puffed up that will take you out, but also the disqualification that will take you out, right, and so if we are, if we don't, if we the better that we are at staying between the ditches of like okay, this is real, I've been invited into this, and so these things, these are the things.
Speaker 1:And just being like, just matter of fact, like I am not the eternal force that is accomplishing the things, but they happen through me, the more I'm settled at that, that these kinds of things happen through me, and so I would say, the more that I am humble about those ways. I don't make too much of my performance or too little of my performance. I just am willing to step in and be in the moment, with the Lord in this.
Speaker 1:The more that that happens, the more that that paves the way for sort of greater, maybe greater moments or more frequent moments, or yeah, I agree. Do you know what I'm?
Speaker 2:saying I do, I do. You had your phone open a couple minutes ago, like you going to highlight something well, it was just.
Speaker 1:I was just I wanted to get to, I, you know, we the conversations with. So, uh, let me, let me preface this a little bit. Just because we are on, this is episode one, but it's really episode two. Um, and dan and I, uh, dan and I, the reason why we're doing this is just because we have these conversations anyway and we thought we need these conversations will be so helpful if we actually took the time to record them and share them with people and really, just in a heart, to be helpful. Yes, that you know the things that we're chewing on, and this isn't meant to be anything other than that.
Speaker 1:So, that's my hope is that you're encouraged and maybe provoked a little bit and maybe challenged a little bit in how you view the world and your faith and things like that, even a little bit concerned for Dan and Anthony.
Speaker 2:We Bring it all. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:We do step, we wander, meander through heresy and other things. So it's all good and the thing I just wanted to get to. So that aside, I wanted to get to this thing that I just felt like in this humility thing, I wanted to just maybe talk through some of the thoughts on the John the Baptist quote from John three yes, that he must increase, and I must decrease. Decrease yeah.
Speaker 1:And just some of the ways that I cringe every time I hear that Right, we've actually, a few times over the years, have talked through this, and maybe I'll just kick open the conversation with Love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the counterintuitive nature of that whole scene.
Speaker 1:Let me just say that when John the Baptist is saying those things, he's not talking about. He's actually talking about the dispensation, right, he's talking about. He's actually talking about the dispensation, he's talking about.
Speaker 2:Okay, so it's not the day-to-day he's talking about.
Speaker 1:It's not the day-to-day. He's talking about his ministry. He's talking about even the you could say the dispensation, the old covenant, John Jesus in Matthew, I think 11, says that of all the people that have existed before, there was not a greater man than John. Who was a son of a priest from what I understand. Right Son of a priest, yeah.
Speaker 2:And he was called as a prophet.
Speaker 1:He called as a prophet. He was Malachi. You would say that he was Elijah in the-.
Speaker 2:A voice calling out in the wilderness prepare the way for the Lord. Prepare the way for the Lord.
Speaker 1:So he was like there was definitely a power and an anointing on him and he represented a movement. He represented perhaps even a fulfillment or a fullness of the old covenant Right and Sweeping wide arm gestures yes, sweeping wide arm gestures. So he represented the old way of things. So Jesus says in Matthew 11 that there was not a man before now that was greater than John. Yes, and then he says and then he says with the coming kingdom, even the least in the kingdom of God will be greater than John.
Speaker 2:Yes, which is?
Speaker 1:such a mind-blowing statement, yes, so.
Speaker 2:I'm setting that out. That's how different the kingdom that I am introducing is this moment. Is that epic? Yeah, correct that something is shifting with me?
Speaker 1:Yes, Jesus that is changing everything it's changing everything, and so it's in this context that John is saying that I must decrease and that he must increase. Yes, and so I think the thing is Wow it's like a collective.
Speaker 2:I Right, it's like John's almost saying I, as in the whole priestly prophetic movement up to this point, yes, I must decrease. That must fade. That whole system and he who represents the kingdom and the future must increase Correct. It has to happen, it has to happen, it's happening and I need to acknowledge it.
Speaker 1:Yes, correct, and I think what I get and again, you've been in enough, dan, and I have been in enough prayer meetings and given side glances to, and I've heard a parade and all those kinds of things and I wanna say this too I get the sentiment right, but the thing that you're really saying here's, the thing that I think people are really saying by this, is that, god, I don't want my flesh, I want my whatever, my fleshly-ness, my flesh-ness. I want that to take a back seat to what your spirit is doing, right, right, the problem with that is that, god, the problem with that. And so I would say maybe, let me just qualify that I agree with that statement. I want my fleshly urges and my fleshly nature. He must increase and I must decrease. I want my fleshly ways to take it back, see to what God is doing, I would say I agree.
Speaker 1:I'm just saying that that scripture is often taken out of context in those ways, because there is a way that that scripture is used as a bit of a club to you, in that it takes you out of situations, right? Like you know, we talk a little bit. Maybe Dan talk about like that God's not he's like you're gonna be you for the rest of your life, yes, and not only for the rest of your life. You're going to be you for all eternity, right? So how do you reconcile, right, you know?
Speaker 1:how do you rightly appropriate the you? Dan being Dan used by God, you know.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah, yeah, yeah, like my heart goes out to all of the children in church world, like physically children and those new to the faith, hearing this prayed over and over.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I must decrease, you must increase. My heart does go out to them because it can. It can nurture self-hatred, yes, yes, uh, it can. It can nurture disdain for me as a person. Yes, like um. Thus the self, you know the flesh, yeah, that definitely needs. The self was crucified in Christ like the flesh. But that's the old self, yes, the new self that we've received. We frankly can't afford to hate that, correct. We can't afford to hate the new self, right, but boy, that's intricate stuff and it's much more of a dance than walking a straight line. Yeah, because I need to love the new creation. Yes, you do, in the way that God does. Yes, it's kind of come to me different times in my life because I definitely grew up in that church world of it is wrong to love yourself, right.
Speaker 1:It's wrong to. It's a badge of honor. How much you are critical of Keep throwing yourself under the bus. It wasn't me, it was Jesus. You have that stick in your hand that you keep beating yourself up over. Yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, man like great song today, dan. Well, it wasn't me, it was Jesus, right. And then you get the snide comment well, sure like if that was Jesus that wasn't up to his usual, like what he could really pull off all that kind of stuff. But behind that conversation was a lot of confusion. Yes, Right that if you were excited about your performance or whatever it was, worldly it wasn't kingdom.
Speaker 2:Yes, to rejoice in what God just did through me Correct and wow. Like being able to stand back and look at the new creation we're part of and say ooh this is amazing. This is cool. The new self God's given me is really cool. Yes, and.
Speaker 1:God's Thank you, god for it, because I would say that God's interested in the new self, like the new creation, in you coming out and being seen. Yeah, yeah, right. And so how many times I think in some of our conversations, so many times you might take yourself out of a situation feeling like I'm being humble and God's going. Where did you go? Right, like I wanted you to be in that situation or I wanted you, I wanna work through you in that situation. Right, and you took yourself out of yourself because you were afraid.
Speaker 1:You're like no, no, no, that wasn't me or that's not me. I can't do that kind of thing, but it's like God's going like where did you go, right, right.
Speaker 2:And that is the powerful mystery of what Jesus is saying that the least in the kingdom is greater than John in the kingdom.
Speaker 1:Yes, in the new covenant, in the new expression of what this all is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is the, that's the miracle and the mystery of it all. Yeah, is to say that, whatever I think of my new self in Christ, it's new and it is greater than what was Right, right, right, right, right. It's something brand new and it's going to keep unfolding forever. Yeah, for sure. And I think what might help us a little bit is to say in whatever way my attitude, my heart, my motivations, whatever reflects the old way of being Right, you know that John was repenting of. Yes, john, that was a repentant statement. He's making.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like, hey, he's gaining all kinds of disciples and baptizing. You know what? He must increase and I must decrease. Yeah, like that statement of repentance. I want to join with John in that, to say yeah to whatever degree. My motivations would ever return back to listening to the snake, the serpent in the garden Agreed, hey, you know how you could be really good at this. Yeah, or wow, that feels really good. You need a little bit more of that affirmation, don't you? Yeah, like whatever the temptation is. And so whenever I think the new, the person who's walking the new creation, still can return to an attitude of confidence in my flesh again.
Speaker 2:For sure, for sure, because it is. And this is cool that we brought up the life union thing with Christ, because anytime I'm not abiding in him, you get that fun phrase to play around with without me you can do nothing. And I like to kind of play with that and go yeah, there's a lot of people doing a lot of nothing, like you can be very busy and you're literally doing nothing for the kingdom.
Speaker 1:A hundred percent because we've disconnected.
Speaker 2:We've taken the new, we've taken the new creation self yeah and we've, we've removed it from communion with jesus and we've set out to do a lot of busy things. Well, that's, that's going to result in nothing. Yeah, literally yeah. But if we, if we abide in him, like that, him, it is always the life union. So there's this beautiful thing. I feel like I like to play around with it this way.
Speaker 2:On the day before Jesus returns, like whatever his return ends up actually being, can't wait to actually see what it's actually like. Probably some of what I thought would happen would a whole bunch of stuff I thought might won't, whatever. But on that day, the day before whatever day it is, the day before human beings are going to be living out an earthly life, like we're going to be sorting this one out until Jesus returns. Yes and shoot. I was going somewhere with that.
Speaker 2:I can't remember where I lost my train of thought. But the oh, shoot, where was I going? It might come back to me. But that grappling with the it's in the abiding with him, yeah, and the full, oh, here's where I was going. I feel like, on that day before he returns, the fullness of the, you know, like the whole expression of the fullness of Christ, however that goes in Ephesians. I think that's gonna look like being very secure and comfortable with that partnership, yeah, like having a very fruitful life for the kingdom. But I know it's not ultimately about me Yep, but I'm 100% part of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like, it's like a Like if somebody comes and goes, hey, thanks for restoring that limb that had shriveled up on my Thank you that where I didn't have a left arm that was functioning now it is after you prayed for me. Yeah, that I could freely say you're welcome. I'm happy to help. Yeah, and not feel like I have to go into a big long, long explanation about. Well, it wasn't really me, it was just Jesus.
Speaker 1:Could there be a place that the body of Christ goes, that believers go in these days, where we actually take delight in the fact that God is working through us?
Speaker 2:Yes, actually take delight.
Speaker 1:I love that Actually delighting in that Yep, enjoying the fact that we get to partner with God without having this, having to worry about the economy of whatever this thing is between the old self and the new self. Yes, can we just rest in the new creation?
Speaker 2:Can we let Holy Spirit manage that? Yes, I don't need to control it, the Holy Spirit can manage that.
Speaker 1:Yeah for sure. I would say I would love, and I think this is what God wants for us.
Speaker 2:I do too.
Speaker 1:I think when we go, when we slide off into these kinds of internal conversations about whether it was me or God, I think the answer is yes, right, and God isn't angry about that, right. So it is me and God. It's God in me, God in me and through me.
Speaker 2:So I think If you didn't want me involved, you wouldn't have involved me.
Speaker 1:Totally. And so and this comes back to a little bit about the apologizing for it, right, like, why would we apologize? Why would we apologize for the fact that God works in us and through us? And I think that when we get into this economy of like well, that wasn't me or wasn't me, I don't think God's entirely interested in that conversation. It's saying he's not interested in having that conversation.
Speaker 1:So I just say I think the place that believers the believers are invited to go into, this place, where we just simply enjoy the fact that God works through us, that it is by design. And every time we apologize for or we feel hypercritical, or every time we take ourself out of the game, we're actually stepping out of God's best for us. We're actually stepping out of design when God heals someone through us, when God speaks to someone through whatever we do, when God or whatever he does, that's actually operating by design. Right, and therefore we should enjoy that. We should actually say, well, god, I want more of that. I'm not gonna worry about the nuances of whatever equation or whatever conversation that I think I should have about those things. So I think again, just to circle back, I get the sentiment of the he must increase and I must increase. I just don't think it's I get this because, again, we would all want that. We all wanna crucify the flesh yeah, we all wanna. But I don't think that was what John was talking about.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't think that's what and I don't think those are the God's not interested in removing you from the equation.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's right.
Speaker 1:These are the cruxes of the problem that I have with that statement Context and the dysfunction that has been allowed to exist of like exist within the church over the years, of how people will just read that statement and have heard that statement prayed and they just assume that that's like, apparently, that's what I'm supposed to do right, and this is the worldview that I'm supposed to have. When it's not what God. It's not what God is looking for.
Speaker 1:God is looking for a people who will be filled with the Holy Spirit, anointed by the Holy Spirit, so that he can work through those people but, he's not removing those people from the conversation, from the equation. So I think the equation.
Speaker 2:So I think that's just an important.
Speaker 1:That's a little bit of an unpacking of the baggage, that, or the pet peeve that I have with that statement, and I just think that, yeah, I think that God's looking for in these days, people that are just walking, true humility, and there's that CS Lewis quote that true humility is not thinking less of yourself it's actually thinking of yourself less. There's a place that we behold the Lord and we just lose all awareness.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 1:There's all that self-awareness where we, just we get consumed by him and time disappears or something miraculous happens.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like we're actually like we're not self-focused, we're actually focused.
Speaker 2:We're beholding him in that moment, right and so I just think that's the yeah, go for it. Well, it's an interesting thought that what would be best for creation would be for the body of Christ to increase. Yes, yeah. So there is this paradox of yes, I'm part of the body of Christ, Mm-hmm, yes.
Speaker 2:I'm part of the body of Christ and part of what is restoring for all creation is for the body of Christ to increase. Sounds like Romans 8 to me, maybe. Yeah, some of the intricacy of all that, like all creation, is growing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, waiting for the Son of God to be revealed. Like all, creation is growing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, waiting for the Son of God to be revealed and at some point, when the earth is fully renewed, the new earth, the only people living on the planet, will be the body of Christ. Right right, you know. Yeah, that's the body of Christ. Right Right, you know, yeah, that's where we're going. Yes, so there is a certain flow to the idea that at the same time and I'm putting air quotes up here we must decrease. We actually, in a paradoxical way, need to increase in Christ, like we need to mature and grow into the full expression of Christ. We gotta be very aware of Holy Spirit in the middle of saying stuff like I must decrease, you must increase.
Speaker 2:Yes you must increase. Yes, because we got to be careful that that we don't bring that as like the bylaws of whatever correct, of going into a day. Well, first of all, I know I need to decrease. Yeah, well, that's good until the holy spirit saying to you what's part of you that needs to increase. So just hold still.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to work on.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to grow this part of you.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, absolutely, and so let me do it.
Speaker 2:There's a dynamic. As long as we're I have all day for somebody who wants to pray a prayer, I must decrease. If what they mean is any confidence I have in the flesh, any way that I'm still living under the law any way that I don't see things rightly. I want that to decrease Like absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I think God looking at that person and I'm not being, I'm not condemning people, that pray that prayer Because. I think God sees that he goes. Yeah, okay, I get that, and so I'm gonna answer the cry of your heart in as much as it aligns with my purposes for you. Right, right.
Speaker 1:So it's like so yeah okay, so you pray that prayer. He must increase and I must decrease that prayer. He must increase and I must decrease. God says I know that cry and I'm gonna bring the the nature of Christ out in you. I'm gonna do that by answering that prayer. That, yeah, it's a little out of context or whatever. He's not picking theological. I believe that God's so good that He'll answer the prayer that we pray. That happen to be theologically incorrect.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 1:He's still gonna say I'm gonna bring my nature out in you.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, so I think that's the part where it's like, okay, yeah, great point, Anthony, but at the end of the day, God's still gonna do what he wants to do.
Speaker 1:But I think in having this conversation, I think it's worth highlighting there are dysfunctions that can happen because we have a mindset where it's like we feel like we have to get out of the way, where it's like we feel like we have to get out of the way, right, right, or we have to remove ourself from the equation when God is not doing that, and so I think that's the part where I think I just wanted to highlight that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's really good, because you, I mean again back to.
Speaker 1:You've used this line you're gonna and I said this a couple of minutes ago, you're gonna be you for eternity, right? So God's interested in the Christ, in you, the hope of glory coming out in its fullness.
Speaker 2:The same as me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So he's actually interested in bringing that out and he's actually. This is the way. The more that that happens, the more that his glory increases on the earth. Yeah.
Speaker 2:A fairly regular check-in that I do with God in this subject is I'm going to be me forever in Christ God. To whatever degree I have a problem with that, I surrender it to you Right, because I do feel he calls to the surface pain, maybe dark thoughts, maybe self-condemnation. Different things are allowed to come to the surface, to be healed. When I do that, when I do that check-in Like in those moments where I find myself doing a thing and I feel dumb and I say inwardly I hate myself I recognize in that moment, oh well, unfortunately that's not okay, because God actually enjoys the fact that I'm going to be me forever. Yes, he does, and so that's a good exercise, I think, for anyone as a child of God is to say, to whatever degree I am not real happy about the fact that I'm going to be me forever in Christ God.
Speaker 2:Help me with that, help me to understand that. Why am I not happy with it? And again, not trying to be cute here, but he's not in any rush, no, there's time for that to get sorted out. Who knows? There's things that I feel. Just now I'm actually beginning to understand from him that he started talking to me about 30 years ago. He's such a gardener, he's just as happy yeah, he's just as happy for me to come on board today with something he tried to show me in 1980, something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's just as happy today as he would have been that day. Yeah, he's just as happy today as he would have been that day, and so that's just kind of a gut check I do occasionally along this line is to just go. You're happy that I'm gonna be me forever because you made me God, To whatever degree. I'm not happy about that. Help me, Help me to understand that. Is there healing I need? Is there something I don't see right? What is it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Is there something I don't see right. What is it? Yeah, yeah, well, I'm just thinking like sort of as we land the plane on this conversation. I just wonder, maybe we could wrap it up If you want to just pray a prayer for grace, for humility. I think I had something else that I wanted to just say really quickly, but it's gone, so that's okay.
Speaker 2:It's fair. If it comes out while I pray, yeah Anyway, but I just yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1:I think this is a. I feel good that I've gotten a little bit of this off my chest a little bit again. But yeah, just maybe wrap us up in prayer, just that God would help us with that. Yes, amen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, god, we just thank you so much for this incredible characteristic that begins in you you are humble. We just want to exalt the humility in the triune, god, in the midst of who you are, the humility that you exude. Just think about teaching I've sat under in the last few years of Jesus. When you show the disciples the full extent of your glory by washing their feet, the full extent of your love. That wasn't just an extra special thing you did, you were being God in that moment. That's beautiful. Like that you are being God when you are being humble. And so, lord, I pray, first of all, we would just cast off and repent of the idea that humility is a punishment or a remedy for being bad people. We just say, no, humility is being like God, yes, and so we just embrace that. We would never expect or want you to step back and say, well, I'm really not that great God. Of course that seems silly. You are ultimately great, but you're also perfectly humble. So let that come in upon our being because we are your image.
Speaker 2:Lord, I pray that you would help us to mature into being able to handle and walk and flow in the greatness that resides in us in Christ, help us to leave lots of room for the mystery of how you weave yourself into our being. It isn't just that you're in the core of us, though, that's true, but you actually fill every place and you weave yourself into our very being. So we become your body and we become, in a very mystical way, the bride of Jesus forever Unbelievable, unbelievable. In a very mystical way, the bride of Jesus forever Unbelievable, unbelievable. But God just bless us with the grace, as a community, to just live, just live that, just embrace it more, engage with it, and I just thank you for. Thank you, god, for all this, thank you for the wonderful people we get to serve with. It's great to be a, great to be a family.
Speaker 1:Amen yeah, I was going to bring up the gardener, like the part of the that God is a gardener and he doesn't like the fact that he's not in a rush and like how that, you know, grates against. Know we want to be there already, right, and that God's delighting in his work. Amen, and he's delighting Like, he's not like. There's just a measure of like. I'm not, I don't have a, I can a little appreciate a little bit from afar because I have no green thumb, but the delight that people who really are into gardening, the delight that they take in caring for like even we're talking about.
Speaker 2:You shake up though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're talking about you shake up the home, yeah, even before the plant has borne fruit, even before or flowered, or it gives any sign of productivity that the gardener is actually delighted in caring for productivity that the gardener is actually delighted in caring for In weeding and watering and fertilizing all those kinds of things, making sure there's sun and all that stuff. There's a delight that a gardener would take in those things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's maybe a conversation for another day, but I just let's please put a pin in that one. That's a great conversation, love it. Yeah, all right.
Speaker 1:This is fun, yeah, fun. All right, have a great day everyone.
Speaker 2:Well, that's a wrap on this episode of the Hearing God podcast.
Speaker 1:It has been a privilege to have you as our honored guest. Until next time.
