The Hearing God Podcast
Anthony Moore and Dan Lamos have met for coffee every week for over a decade. You're invited to listen in on their conversation on The Hearing God Podcast. Explore the prophetic, mystical, and heart-centered aspects of a life filled with the Holy Spirit. Each episode offers insights, inspiration, and practical wisdom to deepen your spiritual journey. Tune in for authentic and encouraging conversations that will enrich and empower your walk with God.
The Hearing God Podcast
Building a Foundation of Prayer w/ Justin Allen
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Prayer is not merely preparation for the work but is spiritual work itself. Anthony and guest Justin Allen explore how true communion with God often transcends words and religious formulas, revealing that some of the most profound encounters with God happen in wordless prayer—simply being in His presence.
They tackle how, when reduced to the transactional (always asking for things), prayer can undermine the relational aspect of communing with God and how growing in prayer requires discipline and sometimes pushing through resistance and distraction.
Welcome to the Hearing God Podcast
Speaker 1Welcome to the Hearing God Podcast. I'm Anthony Moore.
Speaker 2And I'm Dan Lamas. For over a decade, Anthony and I have been diving deep into weekly conversations about the prophetic, the mystical and the matters of the heart, and we invite you into these weekly conversations.
Speaker 1We hope you feel like an honored guest at our table, so pull up a chair, settle in and let's get started.
Speaker 3Well, here we are.
Speaker 1How's it going, justin? It's going well, justin, justin, justin, allen. Well, for one thing, you're not Dan.
Speaker 4Nope, I am not Dan.
Speaker 1You are not Dan, dan, and that's okay. Uh, dan was uh unavailable to record this week, so I uh I called upon my friend, my prophetic brother uh, and uh, just general all around good guy to sub in for Dan this week, and so thanks for joining us everybody. We've got some amazing things to talk about, some Jesus things to talk about, some mystical things to talk about. So we're gearing up for just a fun episode and so just really hope the Lord uh is present here in this conversation as we were praying beforehand, and that he's glorified um in everything. So, justin, yes.
Speaker 1Yeah, you're here, man. What an honor.
Speaker 2I know it's wild eh.
Speaker 3I love it.
Speaker 1Uh, so glad that you're here and we have plenty of conversations. We usually get together, at least over the last few years, you know quite regularly, but even in the last little bit we've been getting together every week just to talk about Justin has really been an encouragement to me, just in the way that he's gosh, you're hungry for the things of the Lord and you are willing to pay a price to like and what I mean by that. You are one of the people that are willing to sacrifice your own convenience to go after the things of the Lord, and that really encourages me about you. So that's one of the things that I enjoy about you.
Speaker 4Keep going.
Speaker 1So I'm wondering, maybe we could just start off a little bit, um, because I know that lots of people around here now, but I don't know if everyone who's going to listen to, uh, this podcast really knows who you are and just, or maybe they know you but don't know a little bit about your story and so so just give us a little bit of a flyover, maybe not the like. I was born on a, you know, a dark and cold day in whatever month it was, I don't know March or April or June. February 28th oh.
Speaker 1February.
Speaker 2Okay.
Speaker 1February. Okay, I was guessing, that shows how prophetic I am. So, anyway, just talk about, like, what your journey with jesus has been with. Just give us a, an idea, and then we can let the conversation go from there?
Speaker 4yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um. Well, I grew up in the church.
Speaker 4Yeah, I had a faithful mom who brought me here my brother, church years and years and years, and as a young kid, like as a boy, love jesus I just really felt connected deeply to the lord as a young boy, and then the sort of typical story you, I, I started wanting influence and validation from people in the world and I found myself chasing after the things of the world, and you know, the men specifically. One of the things is I really didn't have like male mentors in my life to teach me and show me the ways of God and anyway.
Speaker 1So I spent, uh, 18 years, I basically just went into the world right until I had a sort of radical encounter back with god uh yeah, I'll be back home, yeah and then I just been chasing them ever since right yeah, and I think where we first met was would it have been like it would have been for sure by early 2019.
Justin's Journey of Faith
Speaker 1Because I actually, like you, were in a session that Dan and I were doing around XY like the XY conference that we have here in the church and then I think I had a word for you and then that's what I ran, and I knew a little bit about you and I knew who you were and I remembered, I actually remembered you from the times that you were around when you were a kid and then sort of I'm I don't know, I'm at least a few years older than you, but I do remember that some of those times and and so from then, like from that sort of that moment on, for at least now, for the last uh, six years or so, uh, that I've known you to be like just a man who's super hungry for God and not even just, not even just loving Jesus, but like you clearly have you know Jesus, but like you clearly have you know, marked yourself with just sort of like the prayer stuff, the prophetic stuff.
Speaker 1And so talk to me about that, a little bit about that journey. So when you came back to the Lord, how did that? How did you go there first? Or maybe, maybe was that a thing, because not everybody, some people have all kinds of hangups about the supernatural and how that you know comes into the everyday life. So talk to me about how the your prophetic journey maybe began and probably began before that word that I gave you six years ago.
Speaker 4Yeah, well, it's interesting Cause it was like contemplating this over the years, just talking about you know began before that word that I gave you six years ago. Yeah, but well, it's interesting because it's like contemplating this over the years, just talking about you know prophetic stuff, and hearing from god and see for me my journey, like I actually didn't know it was prophetic until someone told me, oh, that's prophetic okay right like for me, my journey just began with a relational like man.
Speaker 4I'm just talking with god and I'm he's talking back right so my journey in the prophetic and in hearing from god and you know, was just cultivating a life of prayer between me and god right and that sort of began even when you were younger yeah, and then you would have you.
Speaker 1You knew what it was like to be in the presence of god, even though you may not have had the words for it.
Speaker 4Yeah, yeah, exactly I didn't have the language for it.
Speaker 1I didn't understand what the greater body or the church, what they would say right this is right so for me it was just really natural, like I just understood deeply that there was like I live in a spiritual world right I knew that there was good and evil, yep, and I was aware of it yeah, and maybe there were things going on around you that you couldn't see, but that were very real, that you're, that somehow, by some means, you were just aware of those things, yeah, no, absolutely.
Speaker 4I remember just even like you know, for example, like I would be under some sort of like what I know now would I would say, is a spiritual attack, but before I had language for it right I just remember talking and being like lord. What is going on? Yeah, and just feeling the lord, say this is exactly what's going on and this is what I want you to do about it. Wow and then I would just go okay, and. I would just do what the Lord told me to do and things would change, wow, and it would break you know.
Speaker 4Okay, and so for me it was never really complicated. I kept it. It was always very, very simple.
Speaker 1Right yeah, just do what God told you to do. Talk to him, yeah.
Speaker 4And then listen to him and do what he says. What a, what a revolutionary thought.
Speaker 1If only we could just keep and you know what that. Well, there's the point talking about simplicity, like and I know that, and I know that you're not perfect in this, trust me, I'm just kidding, but I know that none of us are perfect in that but just talking about the simplicity of the interaction with the Lord and how the enemy at times can get us through whispers and circumstances can try to get us to overcomplicate it.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1When it really, in essence, it isn't that complicated, right, and again, like, so some you know, I guess I just acknowledge that, like the simplicity of you know, just hearing God, like, and you know, just thinking about some of the times when, you know, when we do prophetic training or we just take some people who are kind of new or completely new to the idea of God speaking in real time, you know, it always seems to me like there's this little bit of a pressure and I go and I go like this, okay, so, okay, let's just take God at his word, that when you ask a question to God, that he's going to respond to you, yeah, right, and there's lots of times where the response isn't immediate.
Early Prophetic Experiences
Speaker 1But there's lots of times where the response is immediate, yeah, right, and then it becomes okay. So the thing that I heard, how can I trust that that's God's voice? And so that's one of the challenges. But you don't for some reason I would say this just, even in the beginning stages of knowing God's voice, in those you don't get better at it standing still Right, Right, it's actually in the going, like it's actually in the process of asking God and listening, that you start to develop like maybe legs, or some history or some experience in knowing what it's like to hear God, and and I'm assuming that's the the same way it was for you- yeah, no, absolutely Like.
Speaker 4For me it was at the early onset of like it was. Just I felt like it was like the Lord was wanting to develop a trust in our relationship.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 4So for me it was very early. Just like Justin, I want you to know I can trust you or you can trust me.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4And so the whole conversation, the whole relationship was really just about the Lord proving himself to me that he's's faithful, yeah, and trustworthy yeah and like that I can just offer myself to him fully, that's good you know, that was basically all of the conversation. Everything that surrounded it was like that. But in that process I actually yeah, I had to do things right to like go okay yeah so let's go on this journey and like put legs to it.
Speaker 4So to speak and be like yeah like then, a year later, like oh my goodness I can really trust him yeah but because I've entered into, like I said, yes I just started taking him at his word yep, yeah, yes, and so he's asked you to do some pretty wild things.
Speaker 1I know I have, I know where at least two Bibles are buried, but he's asked you to do like talk to me about the things, and again, you don't have to, I don't know what it's like. He's got you to do some interesting things and I don't know. Just talk about that like, just that kind of like what I would call um radical obedience and a little bit like um willing to do something that made look a little silly. Yeah, just because you you really believe that the lord's asking you. Just talk a little bit about your journey, yeah, sure so for me it's, it's, it's.
Speaker 4I have two categories I have the category of like what is very tangible that the lord asks to do, and you're obedient and you see immediate like okay this is very real. It's very like tangible. And then there's the other category. It's like I'm doing things that, yeah, sometimes I'm like this seems a little strange or weird or definitely if someone looked on and I may never know exactly what's happening, right? So for the like hey, I want you to build a bible, or, uh, bury a bible in this place.
Speaker 4I want you to like here's a prayer. Yeah, I want you to pray it, I want you to do these things. I want you to walk around this street, lay hands on this. Yeah, like, do these things. That I'm like you know I'll do it, and not necessarily even know anything that's happening right or why? Yeah, but because there's been so many tangible things that have happened yes I can step into that and go. Actually, I don't need to know why, right, I don even.
Speaker 1It's not that I don't care, but I just yeah, I'll do it Sure For sure, and I would say that a little bit about surrendering, surrendering the need to know why.
Speaker 4Oh yeah.
Speaker 1Right, and I think that's the thing that, like you know, when God asks you to do something and and you can attest to this for sure is that when God asks you to do something, he will at times not tell you why, and maybe I could say from personal experience, he probably rarely tells me why. Right, sometimes it might make more sense to me, but sometimes it just doesn't. Right, like I've done some pretty unusual things just because I felt like in the moment, like God was asking me to do that, and so I guess that like and what I wanted to get at a little bit, like you do these things and this is not, you know, talking about specifically about you know, walking a certain place or maybe even doing a thing like burying a Bible. Like this is not a, like, a modern day thing. Like these are very, these are very biblical in essence, because prophetic acts, which is what you're doing as a sign of something else, or a greater, maybe at the request of God, or a prophetic image of something else. You're doing these things.
Speaker 1Right, and just before I move on, the act of doing those things from a biblical perspective, we would just call those prophetic acts. This is like, if you read the first, you know first part of Ezekiel, where you know I'm going to butcher this, but in essence, god has Ezekiel build this whole like scenery of what it was like with Israel, and then he builds out of I don't even know these things. If I was better prepared, I didn't know we were going to go here, but I don't know if you know, justin, but he has them. Build this almost like this miniature set of Israel and demonstrate, almost like act out what it was going to be like for, you know, the Babylonians and the Assyrians to come in and destroy Israel. And then there's the fact that Ezekiel I think it was Ezekiel that laid on one side for 300 and some days and then the other side for 100 and some days.
Speaker 1Right, so these are what we would call like the act of burying a Bible, the act of walking a certain route is is what we would call as, uh, in sort of the modern day, as a prophetic act, a sign of something that God has asked you to do. And it's part of like why would you do that? Well, it's part of like the agreement, bringing agreement between heaven and earth.
Speaker 4Would you say, yeah, yeah, so yeah absolutely, I mean, and again like getting back to the why thing- yeah for me that was one of the very the first things. I kind of gave up right with. My journey with the lord was just the like. I don't need to know why anything yeah like lord, if you want to tell me why, cool, but I don't require from you a why in order for you to have my yes.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, right, I just say yes, and well okay.
Speaker 1Right, Because I think you know that's a great question, because maybe we can hang out here for a second about why. I don't think. I actually think that why is not the most like, it's the most human question, perhaps to ask At least helpful? Yeah, like, but I don't think God is necessarily super interested in why, Because it all can come back to the glory of God.
Speaker 4Yeah.
Speaker 1Right that God is glorified by our obedience, right that God is, you know, honored worship by our acts of just submitting to him and just doing what he says.
Speaker 1I actually think that like the better answer, like especially in some like again, like why, can get asked, usually in the midst of disappointment, perhaps even tragic circumstances, and I have found that Jesus answers way more with himself than why, than answering the specific question, why, like I've heard plenty of stories of hard situations in hospital rooms where the presence of Jesus has been so tangible and why never gets answered. And to me, like, just objectively, the way I look at it, is that that's a better answer. Yeah, right, that in the end I can trust that it will make sense and trust that it will make sense, but right now, your presence here with me transcends any question that I might have. That's a little nugget for somebody, but anyway, we could go way down here, but I just wanted to highlight that, especially as people growing in a culture that we're building as far as a prophetic culture, um, it really, it really is a, you know, one of those things that you just don't get the right to answer like to ask or expect.
Speaker 1Let me say this way we can ask, but you don't get the right to expect an answer. Right, the answer to why you?
Speaker 4just, you just have to trust the lord, as in everything yeah, yeah, I think it's the least productive yeah, as far as, like you know why doesn't change things uh-huh you know, and in his kindness I've received some lies yeah, like yep later yep for sure, but mostly it's been like you're asking the wrong question yeah it's like how am I working?
Speaker 3what am I? Doing how am I building you? What am I?
Speaker 4learning like. It's definitely more of like. Again back to the trust thing. Yep um, just because I get an explanation doesn't mean it builds trust yes, yes but you know, when I'm dedicated to walking in relationship with the lord, I'm more concerned about me maturing and becoming more like him right, than I am just understanding why he does what he does.
Speaker 1Yes, yeah, like knowing the ways of god. Yeah, what was the thing I was going to ask is so one of the things I know about you is that you are passionate about prayer and prayer culture, and that's been at least probably as long as I've known you. Yeah, um, talk to me a little bit about what what that means for you, like, and just not only maybe how that's sort of worked out in you, but your what's your, what's your passion.
Prayer Without Words
Speaker 4Understand it to be like a foundation yep and the key to the christian life period. Yes, prayer yeah, you know, and again, I think this is one of the things we can over complicate and I think design like the enemy tries to do that.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 4But when it, when it comes to me like my understanding of prayer in its simplest form, is just talking with the Lord. Yeah, it's just communication.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 4Like we can get into. You know how that looks and if you think about it from a human perspective, you have conversations with people all the time and every conversation isn't always the exact same all the time.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 4Yeah. So it's like, okay, we'll enter in all the different types of prayer. People are like, oh, I don't know how to pray. It's like, well, you know how to talk to someone.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 4So, anyway, it's important for me and I'm passionate about it, simply because without it and I wouldn't be here.
Speaker 3Right.
Speaker 4Without it.
Speaker 3Oh yeah.
Speaker 4Without that conversation, and so I'm passionate because I do believe that I want people to know him.
Speaker 3Yes.
Speaker 4And prayer is the avenue into which you are going to know him.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, and could I say that you know that prayer and building a prayer let's just say prayer would be a primary avenue of attack for the enemy. Yeah, so talk to me about how, the things. I have some thoughts about that. So talk to me about what you, how you might see the enemy coming in and, you know, seeking to stick his claws in into somebody, or maybe he already has, like what?
Speaker 4Yeah, well, I've experienced it Like early on, like I said, like for me it was simple and then the enemy made it seem complicated, right, and then it became work-based, right striving.
Speaker 1Yeah, I need to try harder yes, I'm doing it wrong, or maybe even say the right things oh yeah.
Speaker 4Then there's the like oh shoot. Well, I've heard now that I'm like you know, this is the thing. I came into like church culture, yeah, and started hearing people pray yeah and the enemy goes. You don't know what you're doing right see how well they talk oh see how elegant they are now you're saying something yeah, and then and then it really caused a lot of doubt in me.
Speaker 4And then I went okay, instead of me just having a foundational, fundamental yeah, father and son conversation with the lord, I went okay, god, hold on, I'll be back once. I think I can bring you what like. I gotta sound like them. I gotta I gotta get in there.
Speaker 4I gotta start memorizing some scriptures so I can bring them up yes like I all of these things are just over complicated yes and 100 I went through a season of that, and I think within the last year especially like I've just felt a draw from the lord to go, just just come, be a child again. Yeah, I know like, would you just stop? All that and the freedom and the passion yeah, just like being with him was just reignited in a real fresh way.
Speaker 1Yeah, so there is a book that changed my life a number of years ago. It was actually. It's a book, it's an old book, it's a 300 year old book, but by this French mystic and her name is Jean Guillaume, Madame Guillaume, and it's called experiencing the depths of Jesus Christ. And she walks through this process of, like, pushing away distraction right Cause we all know it's like again, we talk with, like, if prayer is so important we would call this would be ground zero for how the enemy tries to distract, discourage, Right. So one of the things that you know, one of the things that I learned through her, uh, through that book, and experienced, I guess I would say it just shifted the way that I viewed prayer.
Speaker 1And I'll say and maybe I'm taking a little bit too long to get around the book beat around the bush a little bit Directly. I have had, on the heels of maybe seven or eight years ago, reading that book. I would say that some of the most potent moments with the Lord, one-on-one that I've had with him, have actually not involved words, Right, and that was a bit of a hurdle that I had to get over. It was a bit of a hurdle because I was like you know, I remember I have this distinct memory of sort of being in those being, in that moment, my heart was just like full overflowing. I'm sure there were, you know, tears flowing down from my face.
Speaker 1And in that moment I was just like God I'm not saying anything Like is this, can you? Like? It was like can you hear me?
Speaker 1And and that was a bit of a journey for me like that God, like to trust the fact that, even if no words were coming out of my mouth, that God knows my heart and you could say this, like again, you would know this at times, sometimes the and as a you know as a as a married man yourself, you would know that sometimes the best moments are when you're like you're just with your wife and you're not even saying anything, Like you're actually, and you could say this is the phrase I'm going to get at is you're just enjoying each other's presence, right, I'm enjoying the proximity of my wife, right? We may not, we may be, we may be saying something, but it might be very little. But I love what I would say, and this is like pulling maybe a theological or a scriptural thing into the wifeness, but it's still true, because marriage is a shadow of a greater reality. I love her nearness, I love the fact that she's near me.
Speaker 1Right, there's a joy. There's just, there's things that are good things, there's joy I guess I would call it joy, um, but there are things happening in my heart and there's no exchange of words. I love the fact that she's near and to me, those times with the Lord where I have had these wordless exchanges now, it's not every time there's lots of things that I, you know, I have a discipline of. I have a discipline of in my prayer life, of not asking for much right personally, because I needs come at you, fly at you all day, every day.
Speaker 1But when I'm with the Lord, it's not that I never ask for anything, but I just fill that time with worship, thanksgiving those kinds of things. And so I guess I don't know where I'm going necessarily with this, but other than just to highlight the fact that a prayer life doesn't necessarily even have to have words if your heart, like you know, it can and should, but it doesn't have to. Yeah, right, and I guess talk to me about maybe a little bit about your experience with just your, some of those times with the lord.
Speaker 4Yeah, that you've had. Well, first I would say like that is the place where I found how I grew in learning to hear god's right when I shut up. Yeah, like speaking of like being with your wife yeah, yeah, yeah like yeah just shut up, it's so good. You know, but it's like yeah, but like my wife can communicate with me. Yeah, Like when I'm talking.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 4I'm not receiving Right, like I'm not picking up on body language.
Speaker 2Yeah, I'm picking up on like so this is my intention, of my heart.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 4To go and sit beside her and just yeah, be there there. Yeah, I start to receive from her. Totally right and connect yeah I feel, like so with the lord in a similar way. Man just sitting in there just turning my intention of my heart my mind, just okay, lord, here I am. I'm just sitting, I don't know what to say. Actually, I feel like I probably should not say things. I should just sit here.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 4And then you start to feel the presence of the Lord and begin to learn those nudges and learn the sense of how your body and your heart, your mind, responds to His presence. That's when you learn His voice and learn who he is. Yep, that's one of the greatest I love, like I similarly have found myself not asking for much right right um, most of what I ask for from the lord is tell me more about you that's good man, that's good and trusting that he will look after me because again we've done the back, the leg work and the foundational work of me being able to trust him.
Speaker 1Yeah, well, and again, like, yes, a hundred percent. Like I think one of the things just in keeping with this line of conversation, one of the things that I, I had this thought, and again, like it could be, you could press me on it and I would have a reasonable defense for it. But I just had this thought, like if I had a friend who was like super rich, right, and every time we got together, every time we got together, he would, uh, like buy me dinner, right, he would be the one to pay, right, and at some point down the line, right, I would say, why am I friends with this guy? Am I friends with him because he's my friend, or am I friends with him because he keeps buying me dinner? And and I guess that was a that sort of like hit me, you know, a bunch of years ago about how it is that I pray, and it is very sometimes prayer can be transactional, right, and not relational Meaning. Just to go a little further on it, I have so many needs. Just to go a little further on it, like I have so many needs and God invites me to God invites me to bring my needs to him. In fact, he says it clearly Right. And he also says, like you have not, because you ask not, okay, so legit, this is not against bringing your needs to the Lord, but if it's the only thing that we do, right, that's where it gets me right, as if prayer becomes this, you know, transactional type relationship.
Transactional vs Relational Prayer
Speaker 1I would call that. I would simply ask what kind of relationship do you have with the Lord? And it is what is your friendship? Like we say we, we like to throw around um, that we're friends of God and again, like I don't, I don't, I don't throw that those words around lightly, um, I would say that, um, there are days when I'm a better friend of God than others. For sure, and I think we could, all we. But I think it's like this, the reality, or the invitation to make communion with God and prayer about way more than just bringing our needs to Him right, and even more like it's actually more. Let me throw this out a little bit, see how this hits you. I would actually say prayer is more about perhaps communing and enjoying God more than it is about speaking. Yeah, right.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1There's a little bit of a maybe.
Speaker 4I'm just no, no, yeah, right, yeah, there's a, there's a little bit of a, maybe I'm just no, no, yeah. So, interestingly enough, this is, like you know and if the listeners don't know, you know much about my past like there was a season in my life where I, like, lived with dogs for oh, you did, yes, right, so I was like in the woods with, like you know, 40 dogs.
Speaker 4Yeah, years, yeah, and then had my own dogs and you know this whole thing and so one of the things like the Lord has spoken to me about himself and the way I communicate in our relationship with him from dogs, so one of the things I learned early on when I started um in in this. I'm going somewhere with this, so just just oh yeah, I'm, I'm all ears. When I first started with working with dogs. So I show up. I I don't even like dogs. I get a job at this kennel.
Speaker 4There's, I think, 27 dogs at the time I don't know anything about dogs, but I'm going to start working with them well, immediately. It was just like I can, communicating with the dogs, the way that I know how to communicate. Mm-hmm. It took me a while to realize that, like, actually the way I communicate with them isn't the way that they communicate with me. So the longer I spent with dogs, the more I worked with them, the less I talked.
Speaker 3Wow.
Speaker 4And the deeper understanding and connection and my ability to actually communicate with them, yeah, grew immensely when I learned that like, oh, these words that I you know, so with the lord.
Speaker 4I found it was very similar in the way that, like the deepest conversations I have are often the ones where I'm not speaking, yeah, and I just submit that you know before him and just you know again, it's position of the heart, position of the mind being with him, uh, and yeah, it is learning goodness that it's like I have this saying, like I don't want to have a genie, jesus right, right, that's the transactional. That's the like you know whenever the vending machine. Yeah, just you know.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, lord I need, I need, I need yeah and then, but there's no relationship yes, that's where it comes in and says like you know, like that, that, that scripture in Matthew. It's like you never want you wanna know Jesus. You know that's been one of my prayers a long time, but you never wanna hear him say like depart from me.
Speaker 1I never knew you right To me, the way that I one of the disciplines or I guess it was not be a discipline but it is a discipline but at least the choice to structure my life so that I am actually enjoying the Lord rather than just transacting in prayer. Yeah, right, again, cause those prayers. Sorry, those prayers do come, those prayers do come a hundred percent.
Speaker 1God, like you know, God, this thing needs to change. God, here's this thing. Help me with this, god. I don't see this. Help me see.
Speaker 1Right, like all of those things that you know, we do this. There's a high value for asking God things right. It's just that there's a deeper. It's not the deepest thing. Right To me, the deepest thing is actually, you know, this unspoken sort of like. It is a little weird, it is a little mystical, like from the outside in, from the inside right.
Speaker 1Those are the greatest treasures of my life, right Me, when it's just me and the Lord. I made this shift a little, a few years ago about that. You know, I actually have viewed those times with the Lord as greater than any other experience that I'll ever have. I've had some pretty wild experiences with the Lord. You know I've done the shake and bake, I've done the. You know, on the ground, I've done the crying of all that. You know all that stuff. But to me, the greatest things that I have valued are those moments where I'm by myself, physically, and the Lord is there, tangibly with me, and to me that's the greatest thing that I like, that's the greatest treasure I would say that I have ever experienced, and it's not loud, it's not dramatic, although there might be a little some tears or whatever, and that's fine. I find that, like, the closer I get with the Lord, the more tender.
Speaker 2I get.
Speaker 1Right, and that's to me. That's a little bit of a marker with people. It's like you know, I never wanted to be. I saw I saw a little bit of that growing up and I just purposed that I would never be, I'd never be older and calloused to the word to the Lord.
Speaker 3But I, I want to the word to the lord um but I, I want that tenderness, yeah right, yeah, I had a thought there, oh yeah I felt like it was a good one too, oh yeah, what was it about?
Speaker 4oh, um, yeah, I would agree with you. Like for me it it's very similarly. Yeah, the greatest and most impactful connections I've had with the Lord were very just, quiet.
Speaker 3Yes.
Speaker 4And the ones that, like, changed my whole life. Yes, from that moment on, things shifted.
Speaker 3Right.
Speaker 4Where, when it was just in a quiet moment just sitting with the Lord, I'd feel his heart, yes, boom, boom. Was just in a quiet moment just sitting with the lord, I'd feel his heart, yes, boom, boom. And then, from that moment on, whatever, every thought, every thing I had about that specific thing, yeah, shifted, dude. You know, my whole life changed because I got a perspective shift, because I encountered the heart of god yeah not because I asked him to like show up in some big way, Just because I presented myself there before him.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 4And yeah.
Speaker 1I had just to keep the conversation going. I had this moment with the Lord in the prayer room this morning and it wasn't like extended, it was like a few minutes, but it was potent, like it was felt. Like you know, sometimes it feels like you get a little moment with the Lord where he breaks through all the noise and the whatever, and then you can and I. It's just such a treasure. But so we were. We were praying this morning and I, as I was sitting there with the Lord, I actually the scripture from the first few verses of John 14. So John 14 is basically where you know Jesus starts off. Jesus says you know, and I've done my best over the years to try to remember this, but so Jesus says you know.
Speaker 1Verse one says let not your hearts be troubled, believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you, and if I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again and take you to myself so that and here's the thing where I am you may be also. And like, oh, that nailed me in the most beautiful way this morning. It was just Jesus' desire to be with us and like what he was, the lengths he's willing to go to be with you and me, right, like. It's like this is I'm going to prepare a place for you so that, like, and then I'm going to come again to bring you. It's just like so is I'm going to prepare a place for you so that, like, and then I'm going to come again to bring you. It's just like. So what's it for? What's?
Speaker 3it for.
Speaker 1Just so, just so, where I dude, where I am, you will be too. And I go, like that's, you know, all of that is just that, jesus. Like that's, that's, you know, all of that is just that, jesus, jesus, it's the will and the heart of God that we would not be part, and you know that. That. You know I go, um, uh, that, that worship song, um, that all always kills me every time I sing it. It's like, uh, you made a way for me to enter the holy place. And then, uh, you know the it's. It's like very simple chorus, right, but then it goes I am yours and you are mine, and we'll be together forever. And that's like that's the greatest thing, is just just dwelling on that.
Speaker 1Like that there is a, there is a day coming where that will be perfected, but we it isn't only in the future, right, it is in the, in the moments, like there are windows, and again, you know, maybe there are other people better, better at it than me, but again, like I would say that's my heart, like that, that's like I would not, I don't want us to be separated and I love and in that place I find like a whole bunch of things, but that he's most precious and he's, we're most connected we're.
Speaker 1We're in those places where it's just him and me and I go those places where it's just him and me and I go you're mine, I'm yours, you know, and just like the day that, like looking forward for the day for that to be perfected, where we'll never be separated you know, and again like yeah, so good man, so good.
Speaker 1Talk to me a little bit about. I feel like it just just just needs to sit there for a second. Yeah, thank you, jesus. Talk to me a little bit about how prayer from your viewpoint like let's, let's take it out of the personal and let's go into the corporate you know you said to me a number of months ago at least and we've actually had this conversation a little bit where the Lord's put on your heart, your worship services are full, but your again okay. So talk to me a little bit about what that means to you, about like developing, cause there is the personal but there is also the corporate, like the you know the solemn assembly kind of deal, or you know. Talk to me about how the Lord's been leading you, and then even maybe from where your direct ministry is, or the main chunk of your ministry is with young adults yeah talk to me about that journey, about that corporate place of prayer yeah, so like that, that was a dream
Building a Corporate Prayer Culture
Speaker 4that I had when the lord saw like I had this dream, um, and in the dream I walked into a room and there was like a circle of like in what I knew to be leaders yep and I was standing in the middle and I was addressing them and I basically just said, like with my hand out, kind of like you know, in a rebuking way, like your worship nights are full, but your prayer rooms are empty right and I woke up from that dream with this great sense that like, look like that was me receiving, like I was being rebuked yeah in that moment like yeah, basically I felt like it's like look to me, pure worship is a byproduct, it is a fruit.
Speaker 4Yeah, so if you want to worship god truly and honestly and genuinely, that is a byproduct of something yep and I was really feeling the invitation from the lord in the rebuke like it wasn't like oh you suck, it was like a whoa I'm inviting you into something yeah I'm inviting you into.
Speaker 4Like you know, you want to know how I'm really pleased with the worship nights right is if you dump a whole bunch of fertilizer on the root system. Yeah, that is prayer yeah like, if we are not guiding people into relationship with them, encouraging them into a place of prayer, corporately, yeah, then we call it a worship night. What is really happening over there now? That's a whole other separate conversation?
Speaker 3yeah, don't, you know, but for me and my part it was this it was.
Speaker 4I want to create a space where people encounter the lord yeah yeah, and I want to encourage them to pray now. Prayer a, because what I love about corporate prayer generally is it's really it's much more difficult in corporate prayer to be self-focused yes so when you're in a prayer room, it's very difficult to just start going me, me, me, me. Yeah, the prayer tends to lean more towards others right, more towards thanksgiving and praise more towards intercession. It's more outward and otherly focused, yeah, and so part of that is just to go.
Speaker 4Oh, I'm getting a heart like the heart of god for his people, for his church, for the lost yeah you know, getting a heart to just be connected with god and understanding that, yeah, this is how we do the work like a book that you gave me a couple years ago was like a book, um like a compilation of, like ian oh yeah, yeah, bro, that book bro potent. Oh well, one of the main things that he keeps getting at is is like prayer is not just a work, it's the work yes it's not a thing we need to get better at yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like no, no this is the only thing.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4Like you need to like let everything else go and get into this.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, oh, that's good man. This is the way like that.
Speaker 4God all that God wants to do through and in the earth is going to be done through the place of prayer, through his people.
Speaker 1Oh, yeah for sure, and I think that message is a little bit lost. Okay, so let's just go back to that book for a second. That book, em Bounds, who's a legend in being very direct. He isn't mincing words in how he views prayer, and not only that, but it compiled compiled by leonard ravenhill. So so you got like, you got like the, you know the, you got like ian bounds, all his work being like boiled down by like that, that guy right, ravenhill. Yeah, so it was just like the purest essence of Ian Bounds is like compiled by Ravenhill, but just so, just that's a great book for anybody. It's like I think it's called A Collection of Prayer. It's something like that.
Speaker 1I have it right there, oh yeah, anyway, but just talking about, like the corporate prayer, and again, like I would say that there's, there does, and again, like the same way, the enemy creeps in, right and maybe even more so.
Speaker 1Right, like this is the conversations that there is a there's a lot of fear and angst and anxiety, even with, like lots of things, lots of reasons not to pray, like being afraid of praying, praying out loud, not having the right words to say, just gosh, being tired. You know, I've had so many days where I have like I do not want to go to the prayer room today, or prayer meeting, whatever you want to call it. But I have found that, like, every time I drag my butt out of, you know, out of the house, into the car and to the church to get in a prayer room, I have found myself that every time it's been profoundly worth it and so, but just like, but again like talking about prayer on a corporate level, like what would you say to someone, maybe Justin, who's like struggling with this? Maybe they're like okay, I see the value in prayer, but right now I'm too afraid. No, I need to be nice.
Speaker 3My first instinct is to be like, but this is what I love about you.
Speaker 1This is what I love about you. This is the prophetic offensiveness. Well, you're afraid. Let's pray. Let's just break that off. Let's pray.
Speaker 4Yeah.
Speaker 2Break that off. Yeah, get that out of here.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, and it's not the person, it's the lie they're believing. It's the lie they're believing. Yes, a hundred percent. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4You know, like to your point, I've never gone to a prayer meeting that didn't require. Okay, like I'm, let me say this I've never gotten out of a prayer meeting and I went. I wished I didn't go to that.
Speaker 1Yes, like sometimes, it's been hard to go to yes, it does involve discipline it does like and sacrifice emotional energy 100 there's nothing about like anything.
Speaker 4I'm saying that was like. Oh, it was always just so easy and awesome. No, no, no, I just knew that I, if I, value my relationship with jesus above everything else in this world yeah and know that from that relationship everything else would be better. Yeah, well then I have to be disciplined, yes, in cultivating, stewarding that relationship. So yeah, sometimes I don't want to do it, but I do it.
Speaker 1Because you need to rather than you want to.
Speaker 4Well and for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But here's the awesome thing I have I've leave. I go in knowing I need to Yep, and I leave Yep, wanting to come back. Yes, something shifts in my heart. You, you know, the more I do it, yep, and also just like it's just all the things I want to see god do in and through me and in and through our church and in this region.
Speaker 4I can get out there and I can hammer down doors and I can, you know, do all of the stuff. Yep and should and should, yep. But I think to your point of what was referenced earlier about that verse in matthew, like you know, lord, did we not?
Speaker 1yes, prophesy in your name.
Speaker 4It's good, it's good man it's like he's like god, depart from me. I never knew you, okay? Well, it's not that the things were bad, it was.
Speaker 1They were disordered, right like yes god, yeah, like because you can, you can, you can, uh, you can do those things and not know, god, I can absolutely look, read something in the bible and go, oh, this is a godly thing to do, yes, and do it completely disconnected from the lord, like oh, I'm doing god's work.
Speaker 2Well, how do you know?
Speaker 4that well, because it says in the bible well, yeah, okay, but like, is god with you while you're doing? Have you talked to him about that, or like? So I think there's the disconnection.
Speaker 1Oh, people doing it, you got something, I got something for you no amount of activity in the king's service will ever make up for the neglect of the king himself.
Speaker 3And that's a robert machine machine I think that's how you say it there's a weird apostrophe in there but yeah, that's it right there.
Speaker 1Yeah, like we fill our lives and we should fill our lives. But we can't conflate or confuse the service of the king, right, we can't confuse serving the king for knowing the king?
Speaker 4No, I think, and just I'm glad this is because I have a thought now about, like, my early journey.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 4For me it was. I never even thought about doing things for god, right. I never thought about, like the kingdom work right, the, the serving here, the serving there yeah it was very much built on a relationship that led me to start doing things right and I think, one of the disservices, and so like working with young adults, like I'll see this kids, especially if they grow up in the church yep.
Speaker 3Oh yeah, you know the language?
Speaker 4yep and they have all the baggage yeah and then you know, and they're like oh well, I'm doing all the things I'm serving here and I'm just like, yeah, but do you know him? But do you know him? Like like it's not that the doing's bad, but you gotta just, maybe you need to just pause the doing. Yeah, which, look, if we create like you know, that's like not a lot. Like I'm leading a ministry, yeah, I need people to help.
Speaker 4Yeah, so it goes against my nature to be like stop helping me for a minute and like go, yeah yeah lord, yeah, but I know that, like when I put my my needs, yeah, and the needs of the ministry that I'm running, yeah, just put those down. What? Is best for the people yeah it's for anyway, it's first, it's god's ministry. Yeah, sure, sure right.
Speaker 1But you know, I know you're saying yeah sometimes I think we can.
Speaker 4We can neglect what's benefit for the people because we put the needs of the ministry or even me first. And so. I think part of that was, like you know, wanting to. Okay, I have this thing. I really do not want to disciple people in behavior modification.
Speaker 3Yes.
Speaker 4And I think, unintentionally.
Speaker 1We can do that very easily yep right um we tell them by over emphasizing all the do's, the do's, here's the how, here's the language, here's the like, right, but like I, I agree out like first discipling them into relationship yes that will ultimately, once you're in relationship, yeah, you will just want to do things and actually you'll actually hear god tell you and it'll be amazing, yeah.
Speaker 4It won't be like, oh, I have to do this. It'll be like, oh, my goodness, yeah, yeah I know he he opened my eyes to this thing and I have a burden for it and I can't wait to do it. I show up excited and hungry and filled, and it's just a different way, I know, I know that's great man I really just have a heart for trying to like getting back to the, why do I push corporate prayer?
Speaker 3why is?
Speaker 4my. Why do I do that so much within our young adult community? Why? Do I even within the church, like hey, like let's. I always got something to say about, like our hearts there for it yeah it's because I do believe the outflow of that, the byproduct of that, is going to be, you know, true, pure worship yeah it's in the place of prayer right, both individually and corporately, that you learn to. Here's my life, lord yeah yeah, where's that altar and how do I get?
Speaker 3to it? How do I give?
When Prayer Rooms Are Empty
Speaker 4myself.
Speaker 1For sure. I think that, from a corporate prayer perspective, I think we're, as a house, on this journey of seeing the heart of a corporate prayer environment grow and be established here. Just, you know, if you've, you've made it this far, come to a prayer room, you know. Or if you're not, if you're halfway across the country or some other place in the world, go to a prayer room, like there's something beautiful and transcendent and it's different, you know. It's different than being by yourself with the lord. Agree, like and again, like, as much as, uh, as much as it, uh, as you know, the secret place, prayer is foundational to the believer, I would say, where two or three are gathered in my name, is so foundational to the, to the corporate life of the body. Yeah, right, and it's like getting in those places where we meet with God together.
Speaker 1Now, worship, you know, I know what you're saying. You're not saying that worship is bad. In fact you're, you're saying quite the opposite that it's good, just that it's. It can, can get out of balance. Uh, in the life of a church and you know lots of churches like us you don't have it perfect and no, there's no perfect church let's just say just like yeah, corporately I mean even specifically, just like individually.
Speaker 4Yeah, I'll put myself out there to say like I'm the first one that would like yeah, go justin. Why are you doing what you're doing? Yeah, like you'll go to all the worship events and worship nights, but you don't go to any prayer rooms. Yeah, you don't spend any time praying. Yeah, you, but you, you'll get in your car, you'll turn on the worship music and you worship yeah but you don't connect like yeah, yeah, yeah and right.
Speaker 1So like right and so, uh, I think I think where I was going. I think where I was going is just the, the, I don't quite remember don't not go to the worst.
Speaker 1No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's just. I think it was just like that, the that. There's something I think I was trying to hit at the transcendence of. Like that it really is different. There is a different dynamic. It is the two or three are gathered. I'm there with you in the midst as you pray, right. So it's like there is a different expression.
Speaker 1When the church gets together, comes together and agrees on let's call it things right, specifically what we want God to do and not what we want God to do, but scripturally based, the things that we're asking of the Lord right. And we're also doing our best to listen and pray for what he wants us to pray for. Right. That's a value that we have. Like, we're not just praying random things, right. We're saying, okay, lord, help us lead this prayer, like the prayer ministry of King's Church and this is across our locations right, there are people that put together things that do their best to lean in Same as someone prepares a sermon, you know, or someone prepares to share, or whatever Someone is preparing to lead a prayer meeting, and in doing so, we're doing the work of stopping asking the Lord. Like Holy Spirit, you know as much as the disciples, you know, ask Jesus to teach.
Speaker 1You know, as they said, teach us to pray and then you know we have the Lord's prayer but we say, holy Spirit, teach us to pray right, help us pray, because we don't know the things that we need to act, like in our minds and you know, out of the, you know the wisdom and the flesh, you know kind of the wisdom of man and the flesh we, we don't have the.
Speaker 4We don't have the understanding or the revelation to know what kinds of things to pray for.
Speaker 5No, I was just reading in the book that we read this morning and it was like prayer belongs to the spirit.
Speaker 4That's good. No, he inbound says that and I was like oh cause.
Speaker 3I agree with you.
Speaker 4It's just like prayer. Ultimately, for me is like especially in the preparation, is like Lord, what's what is on your heart?
Speaker 3Yes.
Speaker 4And here we are to partner with what you want to do. Yeah, lead us and teach us. Yeah, you know, that's so good so it is is just it's the partnering with the lord yeah yeah, and I do believe that, like, if we talk about, like, the early church, and you look at, you know the biblical models and you see the examples. It's like they devoted themselves to prayer.
Speaker 4Yes, praying together yes and the individual prayer was massive, yeah, and I just feel like getting back to the like oh, I'm not just seeing this and wanting to do it. I felt the spirit yeah lead me, yeah, to really go after pushing people to prayer. Yeah, so that's a response. Yeah, right, it's not just like oh, I see that there and we should do it. It was out of the Lord. What's in your heart?
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 4He's like. I want to teach you about prayer. Yeah, and I want you to teach people about prayer. Yes, help lead people Like. An example I use sometimes is I should probably go to the gym because I know it's good for me. Now I have a real issue because I know it's good for me.
Speaker 2Now I have a real issue.
Speaker 3Yeah, like okay, I got a home gym got it, do I?
Speaker 4use it, no right. But when my best buddy, gordy, goes, come to the gym with me. Yep, because he knows I need it and I'm talking about. He knows I'm struggling. He knows that if I would get to the gym and get a rhythm, I'd be better so what? Does he do? He invites me in yeah so I think part of the place of like the corporate gathering and the invitation into prayer is just kick-starting people into what it means to like.
Speaker 2Oh wow that was great and I did feel the lord's presence.
Speaker 4Yeah, I did like, oh yeah he was there, okay, and then then you know what I will maybe then pick up the weights in my house and start doing my personal workouts, but right like so I think, like in some place. The corporate gathering for prayer is what equips people to actually learn, to discover that secret place in their own life.
Speaker 3That's good man, yeah.
Speaker 4So go to prayer groups, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1So, if you've made it this far into the podcast, thank you so much for staying with us. I think we've covered some really important and meaningful territory. So so one yeah, if you've, if you've made it this far and you know, there's a thing in your heart that says I want to, I want to, I want to take a step. My encouragement would be to go, go to a prayer room, go to to a corporate place where there's go to pre-service prayer. Lots of churches have pre-service prayer. And then here's what I'm asking of you, justin just as we sort of land the plane here, could you pray for us and pray that God would give us courage and also like grace, which would be like empowered, like the Holy Spirit's help, grace to pay the price to overcome lies, maybe distractions, maybe all kinds of earthly demands that are, you know that seemingly, seemingly never end, cause you pray for that and just pray for, like, just pray for personal and corporate prayer lives.
Closing Prayer for Listeners
Speaker 4Yes, of course. Okay, let's pray. Corporate prayer lives yes, of course, okay, let's pray. Yeah, father, just thank you for this time today, lord. I thank you for Anthony and for all the listeners and people who'll be tuning in. God, we just thank you for the invitation to communicate with you, to talk with you, to have communion with you, to know you. Lord, I thank you for the invitation to communicate with you to talk with you to have communion with you, to know you, Lord I thank you that you want to share your heart with us, that you want to be with us and connect with us.
Speaker 4Lord, we just thank you for sharing yourself with us. And so, lord, I just, on behalf know our community and those listening and people will be in contact with lord I just, I'm asking that you would help us, yeah, or teach us to pray, help us to connect with you, lord. I'm asking for encouragement, lord, fill us with, uh, just, strengthen our hearts, strengthen our inner, inner beings, our inner man. Lord, to be able to walk this out. Lord, I'm asking for like to be disciplined. The Holy Spirit, one of the fruit is self-control and self-discipline and so, lord, would you just give us and impart to us a special grace, lord, to be disciplined in this area to set time aside to be with you, to sit with you, to sit with you to sit still to listen.
Speaker 4Thank you, lord, lord, and give us the courage to step out. But even when we believe we hear from you, we just do it.
Speaker 4We just, you know, do the things, even if they're silly or little, but we learn to just enjoy you, yeah amen but I just I'm asking that you would just open your, open our eyes and open our ears to see you and perceive you. And so, lord, thank you that this is not something that you're holding back. Yeah, like you don't. You're not, you're not hiding from us, and so, god, I'm just asking for those who are listening, or maybe I'm just like feeling a sense that, like you know, I don't hear from god. You know, like I hear this and or I'm hearing this and I go.
Speaker 4I wish I could hear from god like that but I pray just for those people right now in that place, lord, that you would just encounter them. Yeah, to be like it's just we're all in a journey, there is no one, that's like. You know, it's nothing special it's just, you know, we've spent a little more time listening yeah and like the invitations there for each one.
Speaker 4So god, just praying that they would feel your invitation yeah to be with you and that you long to be with them. So, lord, strengthen us, encourage us, impart to us, lord, just a new sense of your, your love, and just the desire and hunger and thirst to be with you. Yeah, lord, would your word come alive? Would, our hearts just burn, when we just close our eyes and turn our hearts towards you.
Speaker 3Amen, amen, amen, cool Amen.
Speaker 4All right, thanks, anthony. Hey, thank you, appreciate it this has been a wonderful conversation. So good.
Speaker 1All right.
Speaker 2Well, that's a wrap on this episode. It's been a privilege to have you as an honored guest.
Speaker 1as we all learn to hear God better, If your time with us has been encouraging and you think this conversation will be helpful to others, we would love it if you could share this podcast with the people around you.
Speaker 2Until next time.
