A symbol for peace - The Waterlilies By Claude Monet

In this episode we discuss Monet's Waterlily paintings at the Orangerie in Paris.

Link to Paintings: https://www.musee-orangerie.fr/en/node/197502#:~:text=Offered%20to%20the%20French%20State,few%20months%20after%20his%20death.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Um, ladies and gentlemen, I know I promised I wasn't gonna say that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Um, ladies and gentlemen, of the jury. Sounds ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

You are guilty of having a rubbish podcast. We've got a great podcast, ladies and gentlemen. This is the Awful Dodgers podcast. I'm uh your host is Francisco Centafanti. My name is George Dornay. Uh, we are a couple of artists, painters uh, and sculptors and printers. We do it all. Um, and we're looking at uh we like to look at paintings from a different point of view, like from the artist point of view, not some art historian who doesn't know anything about painting. You know what I mean? It's like we we get we get into the weeds with these things, and we like to uh we like to talk about paint for painter's sake.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Yeah, not not to diss any art historians who obviously work very hard at their jobs. Um we're just trying to some of those guys they talk such rubbish, man. It's just so annoying. Yeah, we're not we're not gonna mention any names on this podcast of any art historians that that talk of rubbish, but we do sometimes get quite frustrated when watching an art documentary when they're pontificating about what the artists meant and what and it's like you just don't get it because you and you don't get it because you you're not an artist, because you you haven't gone through the process of what it's like to create something, and it's not quite always what you think. Is that right, G?

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Absolutely, that's 100% right, Cisco. And that's why we saw this gap, we saw that people needed to hear about this stuff, so we've come in to fill the gap. I mean, nature abhors a vacuum, and amen to that. And that's why we're here. Thank you, thank you. So let's get without further ado, um, let's get started straight into it.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Okay. What do you got from me? Okay, so um just a very quick uh to anyone who's new to this podcast. Basically, what we do is one of us picks a painting, the other one doesn't know what the painting is, one of us does a whole bunch of research on the painting and then presents it to the other, and so they're coming to it afresh. So I usually start with a quote, or we usually start with the quote, and so the George.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Oh yeah, this is the fun part of the show where I try and guess the painter from the quotes.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

And it's it's only fun for me and and the listener, because the listener will already know what, because it will be in the caption what painting this is gonna be. So this is a a moment for George to squirm a little bit. Um it's it doesn't really matter, does it? Okay, so um, so here's the first quote. And to be honest, if you don't get it off this one, I don't know. I don't know what's gonna happen. Okay. I'm waiting. The real subject of every painting is light. And for me, a landscape does not exist in its own right, since its appearance changes at every moment, but the surrounding atmosphere brings it to life. The light and the air which vary which vary continually.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Are we clawed? Is this Claude Monet? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Oh mate.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Well done. Wow, we haven't done him yet. We haven't done him. No, we have a show yet. We have done him.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

We have? Yes, we did. It was so long ago that we've recorded a podcast.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Oh, that was that great one about the women and the thing. Yeah, I did that. That was my show. I actually um I hosted that one, if you know what I mean. I mean, I didn't host it, but I mean, no, I was it, yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Actually, yo, you're right. That was okay. So we've this is probably the third time then we've done it because there was a a lost episode um where the sound wasn't very good, and that was your excellent, which you should really revisit that that m of the women in the garden and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

Oh, I love that painting.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

But then we did another one, um, another m, which I've totally forgotten now. Anyway, you can look it up. You know, you know, look it up.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

Although Cisco might not have uploaded it yet because that's true.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

I haven't uploaded it yet.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

Oh well, okay, we'll get to it. Um get to it. Okay. Do you want another quote, or are we are we good with with quotes?

SPEAKER_02 4:18

No, well, I mean, how many quotes have you got? Because the quotes, they're nice little fillers. You know, when we have those those seldom moments during the podcast where we run out of things to talk about, it's a good one, it's always good to have a couple of quotes you can just throw in there, spark it up again. But yeah, I'll have another one. Take them all day long. Monet was a genius. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

When you go out to paint, George, try to forget what objects you have before you. Merely think. Here is a little square of blue, here an oblong of pink, and here a streak of yellow.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

So true. I mean it's so true, because like painting is such there's a there's a real abstract quality to the way you look at an image. And Monet freaking nailed that. I mean, he got it. He, you know, you see things in this abstract way before you see them as what they are. I've always been fascinated how you can recognize someone from a long way away. You know what I mean? That's a good point. Like, like if I'm picking up my kid at school, yeah, I can I can see like a hundred kids, and as soon as I I see his face from like a long way away, and I know it's him, and maybe it's his gait or the way he kind of carries himself. Yeah, but they all kind of carry themselves like that these days. But I'll look at him and I'm like, whoa, there he is. Uh oh my lovely daughter, Madeline. I don't want to I want to include all my children in this podcast. But yeah, I can recognize them right off the bat. Uh, and it's because there's this abstract abstract quality to the way the light falls on their face. And that's interesting. You can see that.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

And actually, when you're portrait painting, that's very important. And what's scary is when you think it's them and it's not them. And you're like, oh, I didn't know my my partner or my kids.

SPEAKER_02 6:06

And then it's one of the teachers. Like, god damn, we're getting old.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Um, but yeah, that's a that's a good point. Gesture and and that the kind of silhouette. I think we were taught in in uh in the Florence Academy um in gesture drawing with the silhouette. The silhouette is really important, getting that kind of overall outline that kind of tells you everything.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

Yeah, because if you don't, you that's how you can capture the gesture and the proportion all at the same time by seeing that big shape, that big abstract shape. Otherwise, you're measuring all the time, and all those measurements take away from the life of the thing you're doing, and until but believe me, in order to be able to see that shape, you have to go through all that measuring business at the beginning, but then eventually you can just see it um anyway. Right. Have you got a painting for us, Chet?

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Okay, so I've just sent you a link to the painting. Okay, okay, and um to anyone who's listening, they will see the link uh to the painting, so they already know what the painting is, and the painting is hold on, I mean it. Okay, I will tell the the audience what the painting is. The painting is the nympheas, also known as the water lily cycle.

SPEAKER_02 7:29

What doing that one?

SPEAKER_01 7:32

It's a monster of a painting. Good for you. It's not just one painting, George. It's eight monumental curved panels, specifically too.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

Wait, did you did you recently go and see this painting? I did, which is why. Oh, there you go. Yeah, we have to that tracks, as they say. Oh, yeah, there he is. Look at him. Oh, they're yeah, they're just insane. I mean, once again, right back to what we say every single show is that you've got to see these things, and you know, because I mean I'm looking at uh I don't know, a 16-inch screen here with a painting that's so the link, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

The link that I sent you it will show you all the all the water lily uh panels, and then at the bottom there's like a little kind of uh kind of what's that called where you can like a three 360-degree you can look around. Oh yeah, yeah, panorama. You can put kind of panorama that's actually in the orangerie, obviously not now, but it was photographed in there, so you can kind of have a look around, get a sense of it. But I gotta say, this may be maybe even more than than the other uh podcasts that we've done. Like this is gonna be this is kind of cool. This is gonna be an advertising. It's kind of cool the way you can move it. This is a great website and yeah and go and see these in person because as we'll get to later, this was possibly the first art installation ever done. Right. Boom. Boom, money, boom, first art installation, boom.

SPEAKER_02 9:05

Okay, I'm gonna criticize it right off the bat because I think it got it all wrong with that white background. You know, they should have gone darker with the background, right? Interesting, yeah. That's a good point. Because especially with this photograph, I mean they just they if you squint, they just completely disappear. And I think um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

I don't know if I don't know if that was a good idea on their part, but all right, George, do you want to describe to the listener who maybe has never heard or seen these paintings? Just just give a brief description of of what these paintings are about, or not about, but what they are, like visually, from a visual point of view.

SPEAKER_02 9:46

So Monet uh this he he painted these towards the end of his uh that's specifically what I didn't want.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

So just all I need you to do is just get into the visuals of it. So just I've done all the weeks.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

Okay, if you're looking at oh yeah, so wait, wait, wait. Okay, I'm sorry. This is um okay, so these were done. Um they're huge. Okay, so if you're in the car or something like that and you haven't got time to look at your phone, and we do not, yeah, just want to say, like every show, if you're driving listening to the show, please don't try and look at these paintings. We can describe them, you don't need to take your eyes off the road. Um we wouldn't hate anything like that to happen. So watch out for that deal. So basically, what you're looking at is you're looking at a very long, thin panel. Um, they're each different lengths and different um uh they're the same height, but they're the different lengths to fit in this oval room.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

It's actually two oval rooms. Two oval rooms.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

How how long do you think they are? Okay, between 20 feet.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

They're all the same height, and the height is they're all one meter ninety-seven. Okay, right. And if you added if you added them all together, it would be 91 meters of canvas.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Oh, he's done his research today.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Got the calculator out or that 300 feet of canvas.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

300 feet of canvas. Um, some might say maybe uh maybe a little bit arrogant of Mr. Claude Bonnet to take on this project. And I think I can I think you know, actually, was he I think we can get a little bit controversial and ask ourselves, was he really successful here? Um, I'm thinking probably there's one that's one I like, but the other ones, I mean, well have you have you seen these paintings in in person? Well, there you go. You see, I haven't seen them in um I haven't been to the orangey. Yeah. Because to be honest, let me tell you, I mean, apart from that one painting that I really love of the of the ladies in the garden of the show that Cisco lost, I really love that painting and that era in Monet's life. But these his later stuff, I gotta say, I've never been a huge fan of it, and these ones are not my favourite. But like you say, I haven't been in the room with them, so I probably I'm not feeling it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Okay, well, I'm gonna hopefully in this next hour, I'm gonna hopefully change your mind in just the story of how these paintings came about. Because it's it is See, there you go. You see a little bit of background, yeah. It's an amazing story, and so I I have seen these paintings before, and very recently I saw these paintings. Uh, took my daughter and my wife Lydia, we went to Paris and we went to the orangerie. I think my daughter, who's five, was it like a pilgrimage for me?

SPEAKER_02 12:48

Was it like yes? For me, it very much only for the show, only for the show.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Wrote it off. Basically, we had a day in Paris, and I had to convince uh my wife. Uh, I was like, come on, look, you know, I know Elkior daughters, she's only five, but like I'm sure that she will survive like a museum trip, you know. And and I I really had to work hard to convince them. But I gotta say, it was amazing because museums are wonderful these days because they're not like the old days where they're kind of stuffy and stuff, they've always got a room dedicated to children where they can do, you know, they can make their own cut out versions of the water lilies, there's there's books, there's stuff to draw on, there's big pieces of paper. It's amazing. So museums are now a kind of wonderful uh place to take kids because they've always got a kids' room, or at least the ones I've been to recently. Um, so anyway, oh yeah. So I arrived there and I got into the first room, and a bit like you, my first reaction was uh like a bit of a letdown, really. Um I looked at a corner of one of the canvases and I thought, oh, that's a that's a bit rubbish, like looks just like a bit dirty. Um and it sort of took took me maybe about five minutes to kind of acclimatize myself to the space. I mean, the space itself is amazing, it is two sort of oval rooms, and it is as I've said, is becoming probably considered one of the first installation pieces. And we'll we'll get to all that, but um, but as I as I was there, what you've got to do is you've got to sit down. There's there's these long benches in the middle. You've got to sit down at the bench and you just gotta start taking it in. And it is a kind of meditative experience. Um and and once you start to kind of relax and be there, I gotta say, yes, I'm gonna use the word. It was it was a transcendental experience.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

There it is, transcendental. I knew it after 15 shows.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Oh, it dropped in. Um, but but so that's why I'm I'm gonna say that this this uh episode is definitely gonna be an advertisement to go and see them in person because it is it is tricky to kind of get the scope of them. Um and the colour, you know, the just the colours and the the vibe, it's it's just a vibe. It's a kind of very much of vibe paintings. Um but so that was my kind of first, and I was just like, oh, we've got to do something on these. Um okay, so it took him three decades up until his death uh to make these.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

What? Yeah. So he's been painting these for 30 years. Really?

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

Wait, when did he start?

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Uh he started them in hanging as that. I gotta check in my notes now. He prone me with a curve.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

Three decades, and I'll get these out in three weeks.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

Um I'll get to when he started them.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

Um but yes, but basically, it's not that's not the point. The point is it's uh 30 years. So wait, did he where did he paint them? What did he have his studio? Or they painted in the orangery on site?

SPEAKER_01 16:12

No, so he did actually he constructed a studio to kind of to to create them basically. So but the dude, imagine how rich he was.

SPEAKER_02 16:22

I mean, this guy was completely I did a bit of research on a mono before for the show that got missing. But I think that he was completely broke at the beginning of his career, constantly hounded by creditors, and now he's got enough money to build a studio to house his vanity project of these 30. Oh man, this is insane! That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Um, it's interesting that you think you think it's it's a vanity project. Okay, so where do where do we find Monet? So if you want, we have actually done a uh episode on Monet, but actually, anyways, by by the time that I upload this, you you will be able to go back and find that episode. So if you want the early Monet life, it's in that one. So I I'm gonna get jump right into where Monet was when he when he started this painting. So it's 1914, okay? Right. Monet isn't is uh so Monet, just to anyone, he was born 1840 Paris. So it's 1940. Monet is 74. He beaten his demons and critics and found success, loads of success. He bought a house out in Givenny and built a huge garden for himself. Do we say Givenny or do we say Givenny? Okay, thank you. I I really I always love when you correct my Yeah, it's a good point. It is, you're right, it is. I I guess what would be the French. Since you've been studying French, what how would you say that in French?

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Well, no, it's Givenny. But wait, I think.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

Let me ask you this, mate. What about our French listeners? I mean, they've gotta be, you know. They will be cringing. And in fact, I know my cousin listens to this, and she she's a French expert, and she cringes whenever I speak French. So, um, but yeah, I think Givenet. Given? Given Givenny. Given. Let's go with that. Um, so Givenny, and he built you you know about this, he built a huge garden for himself. And his whole thing was he was painting it throughout the seasons, he wasn't kind of moving about so much. Um and his garden was like his second love after painting. Um colour, wasn't he? I mean he's just yeah and he was so so ha at this time, though, in 1914, he's 74, all his friends are dying off, and and actually he's just mourning the death of his wife, which is three three years earlier. Um and then it just gets worse for him. His son, Jean Monet, at the age of 47, he dies. Um blood poisoning. Oh my god. And then it gets even worse. His eyesight stuff well, I don't know, it couldn't couldn't be really worse than that, but in in the series of things that are happening to him, so his eyesight now starts to fail.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

Oh that's squinting.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Yeah. So he's 74. Yeah, he's not he's 74, he's losing all hope. Anyone else at this point would retire, right? You're 74, he's had a massive career, he's success- he's done it all. You know, he's he's he won. You know, he beat the critics, he beat everyone. Anyone else would would retire. And in fact, he kind of did. So he had no he had no intention of ever picking up the brush again. Um in fact, he said in a letter Um that he found painting to be an unremitting torture. Which which maybe some artists might be able to relate to. Um I certainly have there's always a moment where it feels like an unremitting torture. Um but no, that's so he packed it all in. Packed up his brushes. George, do you can you imagine uh a scenario where that would happen?

SPEAKER_02 20:17

Oh man, yeah. Tough times, man. That'd be just like the wasteland of what do I do now?

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Twiddling your thumbs. Yeah. Um so anyway, okay, so but at this point in 1914, one man was to enter his life, which would change everything.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Oh, here we go.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Okay, and this was the politician Georges Clemenceau.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

Oh, Clemenceau.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Now wait, why do we know Clemenceau? Because he was wait, 1914. Oh, yeah, so that whole First World War debacle.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Yeah. Um, so they met Clemenceau was in charge, wouldn't he? Well, I think later he became, was it mayor of or maybe president of Paris? I don't know. Something like that. No, he was running the show.

SPEAKER_02 21:05

He became president of um, he was the he was the head man in France.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Yeah, that's right, that's right. Yeah, but like him to an octopus. I think at this point, I'm not sure if he was, but maybe he was. Um so they met in 1860, but they'd lost touch. Then they met up again in 1908 when Clemenceau bought a property in oh, here we go, Bonneauville. How does that sound Bonneville, Bonville?

SPEAKER_02 21:31

Who is that Bonneville?

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Bernaville. Bernoville near Girnet. Bonville. So it was right anyway, they were near each other basically. Right. And Monet shared Clemenceau's republican ideas. Um so we also know Clemenceau had a keen interest in the arts. Um and yeah, as you said. He would soon be Prime Minister of and he would lead France into war. As you correctly remembered, George. Um read a few books here and there. So basically, what he did is he coaxed Monet to paint again by kind of flattering him and said he kind of, you know, he real bigged up his. He's like he was the most important painter alive, and his paintings were like the ultimate expression of French culture against the threat of German barbarism. So it was a total like you know, it was a real PR. I mean, I'm sure that's what he genuinely felt, but it was, you know, he kind of coaxed him back into painting. Um, yeah. And he said he he's like, Monet, you need to paint as your petra patriotic duty, you know, the facing facing war times.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Um can wait, can I just can I just interject for a second? Yeah. Because him saying that is quite interesting because Monet, when he did the painting the of the women in the garden, you know, remember the show that we've got a lot, but the women in the garden, that painting he took to the salon, which was a state-run institution, and the salon rejected that painting, and as a result, he'd gone into so much debt he had to flee to um Normandy to get away from his debtors. I guess back in those days you could do that. But the irony is that late later on he he manages you know the state come back to him, you know, when he's famous, and they're like, Hey, what about that painting of the girls in the garden? He's like, Oh, yeah, I'll sell you that. And he sells it to them for like, I don't know, five million dollars or something crazy in your day's money. Yeah, it's like having been rejected by the state, all of a sudden now he's their golden boy, and now it's his patriotic duty. He must have had a real chuckle at that.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

Come on. Well, it's it they were friends, so so I think at this point, and also at this point, he he was he was already very successful. Um, inspired to kind of pick up the brush, he he he thought he wanted to do something different, so he wanted to do something. Um he certainly did that, something called the the grand decorations. Um basically Clementsar would drop by like during the war as the war went on, kind of keeping Monet's spirits up, and during ration times made sure he had enough paint and cigarettes to kind of keep going. So Clamois was it was a big part of Monet kind of you know making this happen, really. Right, yeah. And during this time, you know, Monet, as everyone would have been, would have been greatly affected by the horrors of of the First World War. That was, you know, they hadn't really seen anything, no one had seen anything like that on that kind of scale.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

Um and I want to say that he where he was in Giverny is in northern France. And actually, he I want to say that there's stories about you know troops walking past his house, you know, on their way home. Absolutely. He could, I mean, just like yeah, he could hear the sound of you can imagine, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Yeah, he could hear the sound of gunfire apparently 50 kilometers away from his studio as he as he was painting these these big paintings. And in fact, um his indeed his like his stepson um was fighting at the front, uh, and his own son was called up in 1915. So you know, that's that's kind of that's just to paint the picture of where Monet was when he was kind of making at least the first part of these paintings. Right. You know, there was all this going on. So then so um so about four years later, it's uh it's November 12th, 1918, and we know this because it's it's what wait, what day is it today? Today's the 13th, so yesterday.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

Um well done, Cheds. I like that little segue, yeah, nice.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

It was Armistice Day, although I guess when people are listening to that, it won't be so relevant. Um, but yeah, so November 12th, 1918 is known as Armistice Day. And at this point, Monet wrote to Georges Clemence. He said, I am on the verge of finishing two decorative panels, which I want to sign on Victory Day, and I'm writing to ask you if they could be offered to the state with you acting as intermediary.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

Oh no, I think that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

Intermediary, yeah. Um intermediary, yeah. Uh so so at this point, he he as having been inspired uh to kind of pick up brush and work on these pieces, he was like, Okay, here we go. I've seen the horrors of war, like this is my kind of peace offering, this is something I want to offer to the state. Um now Clemenceau was clever, he was like, Okay, those are good, but what if you did six more?

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Um and uh at that point, Claude went, now we're gonna talk about money now.

SPEAKER_02 27:13

Let's talk about money because six more blooming eh.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

The thing is, I'm here, I'm about to give you these for free, and you're you know, you're coming at me with six more, so okay. But um, and then Clemenceau was very clever, you see. He said, and what if we build a dedicated space in Paris to house nice, nice. Now, did you know do you know about the sculptor Rodin? I know you do, because I do indeed. That's your boy. That's your boy. Um and uh no, well, Clemenceau had beef with with Rodin, and and just recently Because why is that? Because basically, Rodin did a bust of him, like a head.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

Oh, that's right, yeah. And he hated it. That's right, he didn't like it.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

He hated it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

Um, but uh, and also Rodin had just donated some of his work to France for the creation of the Rodin Museum in Paris, which is a wonderful place to go, which way if you ever go to Paris after you've been to the orangery, go to the Rodin Museum because it's fabulous.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Hold on. Um, so yeah, basically, possibly out of competition, I think maybe Clomencel um riled Monet up, saying, Oh, Rodin's got a museum, you know, why don't you, you know, get involved and have your own? So anyway, Monet agreed to it, uh, this proposal of a building museum. So it's dedicated mainly to Monet and his work. And I guess, you know, as an artist, it's like the ultimate form of flattery, isn't it? Sort of a chance at at the so at this way.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

So it's it's more than just just these paintings, these six huge, massive paintings, which would be enough to go in one museum. But is that is there any more work of his in the orangery?

SPEAKER_01 28:57

No, so there's only eight pieces below, below there's a there's an art muse um like an art uh gallery space. Well, yeah, it's a gallery space. You've got some Picasso, you've got some brac. I gotcha. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In the in the bit below, which I don't I don't know the history of the orangerie beyond this, so it may I don't know if if it if that had always been there or they built that. I it's a beautiful museum, no matter what. Um for this at this moment it was just gonna be two rooms, and and so at this point, I mean Monet does think think about things differently because I mean we've got to we gotta think that you know Monet is quite old now, and also the Impressionists were once they were kind of the avant-garde of the art world, but in nine in 1918, they're not always kind of parse. Exactly, they're not really castos around, they're seen as the establishment, Monet is the establishment, you know. That's uh the irony, yeah. It's crazy. So he wanted to move painting forward and do something different with this series. So it's he didn't want to just do the same old thing, so it was it's a very conscious kind of decision on his part, and he wanted to work on this big scale, and and I think like his ambition at this age um was kind of phenomenal, like yeah, you know, to work on that big scale, um yeah, to take on that that challenge. I think that's that's quite amazing, you know. He didn't have to do anything, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

There's some wonderful, there's some wonderful photographs of him actually working on these um that are probably on this website. But I remember seeing them, and he's got this huge palette, this big round oval palette, it's really glassy, and obviously somebody's cleaning it for him. And uh yeah, and he's there and he's wearing a tweed suit, and he's got a beard and all that, and he's like knocking it out. I mean, big brushes. Yeah, I mean, it was probably kind of inspiring for him. George, I think. And so honestly, wait, how old was he when he died? Man, he must have been like 100 or something, right? Uh well he died in 1840 to 1926. Uh 60, 80. He's 86. Yeah, I think. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

Yeah, 86. Dang. I mean, for the you know, for back then it was, you know, he we he he was in the echelons of like Leonardo and Michelangelo, you know, really. Um, totally.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

And then also he was also um I mean, you get any, what's that? That's that saying, you know, how do museum creators museum curators spell money, they spell it M-O-N-E-T, because if you have a Monet show anywhere in the world, anybody, you know, you it always sells out. I mean, he is he's one of the big hitters, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Okay, so a little bit on so how are they made? Um basically he was like, right, I need to build a new studio, which is what we were talking about at the at the beginning. And he he he constructs this enormous studio, which you can see pictures of with these overhead windows. Um fantastic. Now, a common misconception is that he completed these paintings outside on location. Uh this is this isn't the no, this is he may have started them outside, um, but he he finished them all in his studio. Um, and he actually worked on about 12 canvases at the same time, which were on these wheels, and he could kind of move them about as as one was drying, he was kind of working on another. I mean, that's uh yeah, it's it's an amazing undertaking. So, okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

I bet this kept him alive, man. I bet this kept him alive. I bet if he hadn't had this, he'd have probably keeled over 20 years before. You know what I mean? I mean, I bet this just pushed him through. You know, project like this, that big, you know, you um we wake up every day and you're like, oh man, I'm gonna do it. You know, this is like you know, you get that feeling again. It's a pr it's impressive that he at that age could still, you know, summon the uh the muse, you know?

SPEAKER_01 33:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

Sounding cool, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Summon the muse.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

Summon the muse. Yeah. Um, okay, so one of these canvases could take up to 60 sessions of intense work. And I just, for the record, I want everyone to know that George Dorney at the beginning of this podcast said he could do them in three weeks.

unknown 33:37

Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 33:40

I'll knock him out. I'll bring my tools, bring my brushes.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

Um so there's about some of them have like 15 layers of paint. Um, he had 75 paint brushes, 40 boxes of pigments. Um okay, so this is kind of interesting, I guess. It's a bit nerdy, but yeah, some technical stuff for any artists out there.

SPEAKER_02 34:02

Go on, hit us with it. Are they on linen or dark?

SPEAKER_01 34:05

Okay, so yeah, they're on linen, uh, but the canvases had a pronounced weave. Okay, which is interesting. Meaning the weft threads. So this is like texture.

SPEAKER_02 34:19

For anyone who doesn't paint, it's like texture. So imagine a tweed jacket, right? And you might have a tweed jacket where it's very, you know, a very mild texture, and then you might have a tweed jacket that has got more um, you know, you can see all the all the um oh chance what's the word I'm looking for. You can all the stitching and everything. Um, and this makes it gives it tooth to the paint, which means your paint can stick to the canvas better, and if you want to, you know, you can beat it up a lot more. They're much more rugged. And some painters do that, they like attack it, don't they?

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Yeah, it you kind of build up more of a texture. I'd I'd never heard of the these this term, the weft threads and the and the warp. So I guess I guess I guess that's I guess it's essentially the vertical threads of the canvas and the horizontal threads. So the I guess the horizontal threads were thicker than the vertical, so it create created a kind of slightly uneven surface, anyway. Um probably only interesting to painters and probably only interested to a handful of painters anyway. Um so he would often like layer the paint and then he'd scrape it off, uh, which gives it that kind of tech textural and sculptural effect. Uh how did how do you think he he he painted them? I mean, sorry, I mean like what kind of uh like did he apply them thick or thin, or was it washes? What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 35:49

Uh well I'll tell you, yeah. I mean, when I look at them, I would definitely go with ah man. I mean, the thing about Monet is he had the I mean, I remember reading years ago about his method was to like get it all on the canvas first, and then you can start, you know, kind of like uh conduct it, you know. You can you put the you know cover the canvas in a sort of vague idea of what you want, and then start making things happen, sort of, hey, you know, I need more light here, uh, more dark there, you know, back to his like big blocks of shape. But then looking at these, um he must have done it like that, yeah. And I imagine, yeah, he just got rid of all the white first and then got a vague kind of underpainting going on, and then starts months and years of just tweaking them, you know. So I would say probably start off pretty thin, maybe just to get the paint on there, and then and then going, yeah, going fatter and fatter as he gets more and more texture.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

Yeah. Um I mean that if you look at them sort of up close, there's still it is still kind of the impressionist technique of putting colours next to each other, so they're kind of almost pointyism, although they're more expressionistic than pointyism was felt a bit more scientific in a way, but this is more expressionistic, I think. Um and kind of quite short strokes, you know, it was almost like a jabbing of the canvas.

SPEAKER_02 37:18

Um, I mean you've got to stand back, and then you've got you're probably he's probably walking up to it, standing back, walking up, you know, he's 80 something years old. I mean, it must have been a bit of a chore, I bet. Yeah, plus he wasn't very tall, so he'd had to uh you know, seriously, isn't there all those bits at the top? Yeah, but I tell you what, I keep coming back to this man, but this museum, they should paint the walls darker, they should be at least a couple of tones darker.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

Let's send them an artful dodger's message.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

Um don't you think? But wait, wait, look, look, okay, for the first one, refle d'ab, le fle d'ab. That one, the reflections of the trees, it's just one big blue mass when you look at it with all that white around it. But I swear to god, you darken that background and you'll start to see way more colour in that.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

And I actually I really think it's a valid point. And I think I think in a way it's unfortunate maybe that because Monet that's how he kind of envisioned it, that maybe a more modern person couldn't come along and say, Well, you know, why don't we try this? You know.

SPEAKER_02 38:25

Well, especially as we're photographing them. I mean, when you photograph it and you put it on your website and you also cover it in this white background, then you you can't see any of the subtlety within it because you're blinded by the um the rectangle, you know. That's a good point. Um, George, but I guess when you're in the room, you know, you've probably you're much more immersed in it, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:45

You you are. It is a it is a like you're swimming in them. I mean, that's how it feels in a way.

SPEAKER_02 38:49

Um that must be amazing. And aren't there a few little there's a few little self-portraits in here, aren't they? Or people we knew? No. What? Sorry. Look at that one, look at the look at les nuage, which is the clouds, isn't it? Yeah. And top bot right hand side, come on, is that that's our boy Claude with the beard and everything, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Well, people see what they want to see. That's what they said. Um, put it this way, George. I don't have any notes on that. So if the I mean, we can't talk about it. No, no, no. I'm saying, I'm saying if you have, I don't have any evidence that that.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

So that's just your opinions out of it.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

They well, no, this there's a book about all the, you know, that you didn't buy at the gift shop, but there's a book in the gift shop that has you know, the photograph they use on the front is his self-portrait, which is in Les Nuages on the right hand side. What?

SPEAKER_01 39:48

That's rubbish.

SPEAKER_02 39:50

I'm telling you, mate, that's what I'm saying. That's total what on earth are you talking about? That I'm talking about Claude, man. He can't help but put himself in those like paintings.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

He's in a self-portrait in these paintings.

SPEAKER_02 40:03

Okay, look at les nuages, right?

SPEAKER_01 40:05

Okay, I'm looking at the page.

SPEAKER_02 40:07

Right hand side, right hand side.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

I'm gonna go to the right hand side, and then you will know. Yeah, there's nothing.

SPEAKER_02 40:15

And then you see him there, he's like there staring at you. He's like, hey, bonjour. That's French for hello, Chad.

SPEAKER_01 40:22

All right, well, uh, as the dude says, that's just like your opinion, man. Um, but uh anyway, okay. Yeah, so I mean it is a good point. Anyway, I don't want to go. Okay, so George, tell me, is there a key element? I mean, these are sort of landscape paintings, right? But is there a key element missing in these paintings?

SPEAKER_02 40:48

Oh, this is one of your trick questions, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 40:51

Um, it's just just think about think about a traditional landscape painting since the Renaissance. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

Well, you can't see the sky at all in any of them, except as a reflection.

SPEAKER_01 41:01

Yeah, but there's a particular word for it. What is it missing? What are all these paintings? What don't they have? What does every single painting, landscape painting before this have?

SPEAKER_02 41:15

Um the sky in it, right? Or a horizontal, or a horizon or something.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

There it is, horizon. They've not got any horizon. Um so by taking away the horizon, the water takes up the whole canvas, right? Yeah. And we get that feeling, which is what I what I just said of swimming. Like we get the feeling of kind of being lost in the painting.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

And and we don't really have a sense of scale. We're up, we're down, we don't really know where we are. So that was all a conscious thing.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

And so critics compare this formless nothingness with the desolation of a battlefield from the first world war.

SPEAKER_02 42:03

That's a stretch to me, man. I mean, that is a stretch. I mean, I get it, and it's it's a nice little homage to uh to the first world war and all the terrible things that happened there, but I I just doubt he was thinking it on that level. I think he was just he was just you know, he was looking at his beautiful garden, looking he's obviously completely obsessed with that garden.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

But but let's not forget that you know both his sons are in the war. He's painting these during the war. Yeah. I mean, could Yeah, maybe. I mean, is he that I don't know, I don't know if it's so conscious, but could could this be? I mean, we've just criticized art historians for putting things onto onto painters.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

Well, people say people say a lot of stuff to sell a book, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 42:48

Or you know, promote a podcast. Do you do you want to hear the rest? Okay, so Oh, yeah, I want to hear it all. So here we go. So so critics compare this the nothingness with the desolation of Battlefield from the first world war. They had so they had no beginning or end and no horizons. So this is the comparison. Ah, right, yeah. Time and space forgotten. And as the soldiers were enveloped in a sea of mud, there is a sense of mourning in the work with the weeping. So with the weeping willow trees, he they say is a sense of mourning. Now, I I agree with you. I don't I don't know how consciously Monet was sitting. He didn't he seemed like a very instinctual painter. Um it's hard to say exactly. He's he wasn't a conceptual painter, as far as I'm as far as I'm aware, anyway. You know, I think he was an instinctual paint painter. And so, you know, did he put the willows in as a kind of mournful thing? I'm gonna say no.

SPEAKER_00 43:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

Yeah. He had willows in his garden. Like yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

I'm gonna say no. I think um But it's interesting. Let me ask you this, Chess, man.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

Which is your favorite? Which one is oh sorry, you want to roll? Sorry, yeah, correct. No, no, no, no, go, go, go. Yes, what? What which of these is your favorite? I mean, you know, if you could if you could rank them.

SPEAKER_01 44:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:13

Having been in the museum, it's really hard.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

I mean, when you go there, is it it does because they're all around you, and it's like, yeah. It is really hard. I mean, I tried to ask my wife Lydia that, and we just we couldn't really decide. We're like, oh, that one, and I like that one.

SPEAKER_02 44:28

And then again, you're seeing them all at your ceiling. So I'm imagining, oh wait, so tell me which four are in which rooms. Does that make sense? Oh, I suppose I can see it on this thing. Yeah. So which room did you prefer? You know?

SPEAKER_01 44:47

Oh, you still have a lot of things. It's an emotion. Yeah, it's it's hard. It's really they they do actually work as one piece. I mean, yeah, probably my favorite is Le Le Nuage. If you're gonna push the gun to my head.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

Um, also the other thing about that one is I'm not gonna come back to it again because of the damn white background, but that is the one well that has the most contrast in it that you can see, you know, with this white background. But I would I guarantee you that one, the reflect refle reflet dab. Yes, you know, it's a butchery there. But that one, I bet that's brilliant. Like it kind of reminds me of Whistler, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 45:28

It is, it's does that remind you that Whistler palette? It is effing incredible.

SPEAKER_02 45:32

There's like honestly, um that one, and then also the other one I really like is um well, these reflet reflet vert, the green reflections are pretty cool. I like that one. And I would just yeah, I would love to go and see this.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

Honestly, honestly, it is okay. So, in the middle of all this in 1912, Monet was had a diagnose of cataracts. That's so that's that's when like and also by the way, he did do other painting, he didn't just work on these paintings, you know. He he was making other paintings, but they were actually all predominantly of water lilies, so the whole series of paintings that he did based around this period. These these are the ones yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:14

Can you imagine that? He's got these like eight huge canvases in his studio, and he's like, Oh, I think I might go out and paint a little landscape. Yeah, because I don't want to do that one. Yeah, it's like my clevel so must to be honest. So, hey Claude, get back the bloody wall. You're probably thinking he was gonna keel over it. How did he die? What did he die of? Was it just old age, or did he have cancer or something nasty?

SPEAKER_01 46:35

Uh I don't know, it's in my notes, I'll get to it. Yeah, um, okay. So cataracts is the yellowing and darkening of the lens of the eye.

unknown 46:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 46:44

And so what happened is, and this was a quote from him, he's like, I no longer perceive colours with the same intensity, I no longer paint light with the same accuracy. Um and it and you can actually see there's a whole bunch of paintings where they are very kind of either he's trying to overcompensate so they're very kind of blue and green, um or or they're very kind of yellow. So he's kind of he was trying to kind of like work with this this kind of problem. However, he did um he did have an operation to fix it. So he he did get his eyes fixed about halfway through these paintings, and then it's like, oh god, I have to redo them all. That's probably why it took him so long.

SPEAKER_02 47:29

Um yeah, it's interesting that photograph at the top of the thing, you can see the um one of the ones with the weeping willows in it. Yeah, and it's very different to the way that he actually left it. And he I think he's got some like he's got as as I look at it, it's like the other one is pure reflection, or at least you know, that's like you can't see the ground or the sky, and then this one you can definitely see the ground, and he must have made that decision. Hey, no, I'm gonna get rid of that.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

Yeah, no, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 48:02

Oh, and he must have had the curved canvases, it must have cost him a fortune to set this whole thing up, man.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

Oh, you can money was no expense. No expense.

SPEAKER_02 48:13

Well okay, so it did things real bad now, man.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

We're now gonna get into the reception period. So, how were these received? How were they installed? So, in 1926, um, the orangerie space was ready to receive the paintings, but Monet he refused to hand over the paintings. He was like, they're not finished, they're not ready. Now Cloman Sao like was like tearing his hair out, he's like and he had the task of being his friend trying to get the paintings off him.

SPEAKER_02 48:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

So the setting sun canvas, which I think you can see uh it's the kind of it's uh Soleil Couchon. Is that how you say it?

SPEAKER_02 48:55

Soleil Couchon, yeah, that's exactly it. Couchon via uh yeah, bed, cushion. Yeah, Soleil Couchon.

SPEAKER_01 49:03

Couchet, yeah, um to sleep. So that canvas uh that took him two years and he kept painting it. He was like, no, it's not finished, and there's so many layers, right? But and yet you look at part of it and it's still still bits of it actually unfinished. Um and basically, as you said before, like painting was keeping him alive. Yeah. Um, but as will happen to all of us, um Monet did die. Monet did die on the fifth of December.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

Special extra the extra episode today.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

We talk about metaphysics.

SPEAKER_01 49:39

Um Monet died on the 5th of December 1926. He was 86. Um, yeah. And do you know who was at his bedside? Clemenceau. That's right. Holding his hand. Go ahead, give me the bloody sign the paintings. Holding his hand, making him sign over the painting. No.

SPEAKER_02 49:59

Are they ready yet?

SPEAKER_01 50:00

Uh it's it's a touching moment though, because they've been friends for six decades. Oh no, it's beautiful, man. It's beautiful. It had been their most profound relationship in both their lives. Like honestly, they meant a lot to each other. Yeah. Um, maybe I'll be holding your hand on your deck. If only the thing, the thing they had in common, you know, was this belief in the transcendent, transcendent power of art. Right. There's that word again. I've dropped it twice now.

SPEAKER_02 50:36

You're not allowed to use it anymore. Yeah, that's it. No, yeah, you're right. It's so true, and it's great. It's a beautiful thing. And people used to really think that kind of stuff back then. And people don't think that enough anymore. I think it's sad because it's, you know. It's uh people are so greedy now, and they just don't they just don't seem to want to let us not us, I mean the royal us, I mean all of us express ourselves um in this way. And to and to to hold it up as something um as a herald as wait, I tell you what, so he didn't so you're you're saying that he didn't actually hang these in the space until after he died.

SPEAKER_01 51:16

Okay, but but hang on a second.

SPEAKER_02 51:18

Terrified, terrified of a what do you call it, of a bad review, I bet.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

Maybe. But but but going so this is during the whole process, so Monet had worked carefully with the architect Camille Oh god, here we go. Lefebvre. Lefebvre. That's good, Chase. What's the what you know when you've got the accent on the E and it's down? It's going down.

SPEAKER_02 51:42

It's down.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

Is that acute or grave? I that's grave, isn't it? So it's going down. So Lefebvre, I don't know. Does that mean Le Febre Le Febvre? I don't know, anyway. Something like that. Camille Lefebvre.

SPEAKER_02 51:55

If they're worried about our if they're worried, if they're worried about our accents, we're really screwed.

SPEAKER_01 52:00

Um so he designed it with these two egg-shaped rooms, but Monet was really involved. He was you know, he meticulously planned out the forms, the rhythms, and the spacing between the curved panels. Like he was involved. It wasn't just like some random thing. And also, here's the thing so above you've got these skylights. You've got filtered daylight, it's not just like nice straight, it's like filtered. So the the windows have a kind of like um like a little mist on them. Uh so it's filtered daylight coming in from above, and the sunrise scenes in the east and the sunrise scenes in the west. So it's actually mapped out, you know, from a compass point of view. You've got the sunrise in the east and the sun and the sunset in the west. I mean, come on, dude. It's like pretty impressive.

SPEAKER_02 52:49

Uh no, it's right on. It is impressive. I mean, I've you know, the the tragedy is I haven't been to this museum, so I you know, I'm really uh yeah, and and what's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 52:59

What's really cool is the paintings will change. I mean, to be honest, this is most paintings, but this is how he designed it. That it would they'll change depending on a sunny day or a cloudy day. Ah, right. How the light. But I mean you could argue that with all paintings, but okay. We'll let him have that one. Um we'll let him, come on. And apparently, okay, so here we go. No, this isn't apparently actually. So the elliptical shape of the room draws out the mathematical symbol for infinity. Boom. Mic drop.

unknown 53:30

Mic drop.

SPEAKER_01 53:32

This is this is Monet's mic drop, okay? And as I was saying at the beginning, this is the world's first art installation. Obviously, that is completely from a Western point of view. I mean, the Chinese and the, you know, it's it's always from a Western point of view, isn't it? The first world's first art installation. Um, but anyway, in a way, I mean, for modern Western times, it probably was. Okay, so so finally, a few months after Monet's death, the public saw the water lilies for the first time. The story's not over, G. I'm telling you.

SPEAKER_02 54:06

No, I want to hear what happens. I'm I'm literally holding my breath.

SPEAKER_01 54:10

It you know, here we go. Here's his big master masterpiece. Boom. It wasn't a glorious moment. Nope. Critics. Oh no. Here come the critics.

SPEAKER_02 54:20

This is why, this is why he freaking he didn't let him have it till he died.

SPEAKER_01 54:25

Can you imagine how devastated he would have been?

SPEAKER_02 54:28

With them all just taking the pizza of critics. What did they say? What were the attack?

SPEAKER_01 54:33

What was the main critique? Um, the works of an old man and one critic called them devastatingly dull, which I think were your words when you first mentioned them.

SPEAKER_02 54:49

Yeah, should have painted the wall darker, mate. You're gonna laugh at. No, that yeah, of course. And yet you say, I mean, like you say, you know, you sit with them and then you, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:01

I mean But it gets worse, G. It gets worse. If you can believe it, it gets worse. Um, so the basically the colours and the loose brushwork seemed insubstantial in comparison to cubism and futurism. Yeah, uh. So that was what was happening then. You've got to remember it's it's cubism, it's futurism, it's all the dynamism, dynamism of that time. And so it's kind of funny that Monet initially rejected in his younger days as being too radical. Now in the 20th century, he wasn't radical enough. Oh man, yes. And it's a sad end to the story, G. Claumoncel died in 1929, and he was partly devastated by you know the fact that the public didn't share his dream and see how incredible the paintings were. And then it gets even worse. The works were largely forgotten, and they were actually bored, they were boarded over, G.

SPEAKER_02 55:56

No. Yes, no, yes, they were boarded over. What do they do with the space after that?

SPEAKER_01 56:02

They turned into a boulangerie. They used it for other exhibitions, so they they hung paintings in front of them, so that they were boarded up.

SPEAKER_02 56:09

Oh, the freaking oh, the indignity. Imagine Claude's like rolling in his grave, spinning around as they put on the latest George Brack show. Can you imagine? Oh my god, he must have been miserable. And that's terrible.

SPEAKER_01 56:25

That's the end of the sad story, except it isn't. It isn't because in 1952, Andre Mason. James Mason, Andre Mason Andre Mason. Andre Mason. Andre Masson published an article comparing the rooms of the orangerie to the Sistine Chapel. There you go. Finally, he said it was the Sistine Chapel of Impressionism. And this right, and he's bloody right, yes. It sparked a new interest in Monet's late work, and here we go. Now, now we get to it. And this led to a new generation of American artists to find Monet's late work and his water lilies. In particular, so basically, what happened is um so they a whole bunch of American artists came over there, and I think you know the guys I'm talking about. We're talking Pollock, we're talking Rothko. They they went over there and they were like, Oh my god, this these paintings are amazing.

SPEAKER_00 57:28

Yeah. And they felt Rothko in particular, I think.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

This was the jumping point off for abstraction, my friend. Right.

SPEAKER_02 57:35

It was abstract expressionism.

SPEAKER_01 57:37

This is how it starts. Where no one called it.

SPEAKER_02 57:43

If you take away that makes total sense, if you take away those dumb blummin, um what you call them? Those trees, what are they called? Water lily trees, not waterlilies, uh weeping willows. Yeah, man, this it just becomes a huge abstract piece of genius. I want to go there now. I still want to go and see that.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

As you mentioned, Mark Rosco was a big fan. He loved the epic scale, the gripping energy, and the emotional impact. And in fact, he went on to create his own, if you go to the Tate Modern.

SPEAKER_02 58:12

In the Tate Modern, exactly. Yeah, that's what makes you think of that. That those pictures are oh, they're full on. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, that was really that's really good, man. You've that's a really nice little um you close the bag very nicely there, mate. Very nice.

SPEAKER_01 58:28

So, so in my final word. Um, I mean, I think we've already said, but yeah, I think I think it's a testament to Monet's genius, and um, but what's what I found really interesting about this story, obviously I didn't know the fact that it it had been so badly received, but then it got its its re reemergence, you know, kind of 20 years, 30 years later. Um, but what I loved about the story is is the kind of partnership because none of this, the water lilies would never have come about without Clemenceau, Clemenceau. Right, yes. So that's it kind of shows you, you know, it's a it's a bit like the Pope, isn't it? You know, Monet Um Michelangelo, yeah, and his CEO assisting chapel wouldn't have happened, so it's it's this dance between you know the patron, the clients, um, you know, and and the artists, isn't it, G.

SPEAKER_02 59:25

Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, it's uh yeah, and this like I think once again, harping back to the fact this is what kept him alive those last 20 years, I guarantee it. Yeah, and this is probably why he didn't want to finish it. He probably could see the writing on the walls, you know. Um, and he's left us this beautiful thing, this incredible painter who had an amazing life, you know, started off, yeah, like you said, you know, unum appreciated. And then, you know, this is his swan song, as they say. Yeah, brilliant, excellent show, chats. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 59:59

Nice one, G. Um, do you want me to do we do we want to philosophize or we kind of uh we philosophized out?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:08

I thought I was just doing that, but yeah, I guess, yeah, let's get philosoph philosophical. Um I think to say that imagine at the end of your career, the end of your life, Chess, and somebody's come to say to you, paint this, you know, do this massive project, you know, um it would be well, it'd be a great honor, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:34

There's a kind of madness to painting, isn't there? It's like it's like there's it kind of defies rational thinking, really, doesn't it? It's like really, I mean, do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:47

Like if someone Yeah, especially when you're working, yeah, when you're working on a project that big and that kind of size, you are you're kind of under the microscope in a way, you're kind of like, okay, now we're gonna give you this absolutely huge um canvas in which to express yourself. And it kind of kind of thinks it'd be fucking terrifying. I mean, you're like, oh my god, wait, I I don't even know where to start with this. And for him, you know, once you make that decision, now you're gonna have to cover what was it, 300 square meters of canvas, yeah, you know, with the decision that you started with at the beginning, and the whole it's a bit like you doing one of those um graphic novels, Chelsea, you know. Yeah, you're kind of stuck with the style, and you have to go with it the whole way through, and that could be pretty daunting, I imagine. And all the doubt you would have, I imagine like halfway through you've done like six canvases, and you're like, God, these look shit. What am I I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:43

I guess I guess that's why he never he didn't want to finish them because he it's an interesting thing. I mean, I think if you work in a certain way as a painter, um, and and we kind of talked about this before, there it there kind of is no finishing. You just keep you kind of just keep changing. I mean, it's it's Leonardo, isn't it? He never finished a painting, he just couldn't do it because it in a way you just go on forever.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:10

And and that that's yeah, what was that that Picasso saying, wasn't it? You know, if if if you've if you think you've finished a painting, you should burn it or something like that. You know, it's like everything can be adjusted and readjusted, and you've really got to just wait for your that's why it's great to have like an agent or someone who could just, you know, like Andrew Wires. Get them off, you know, famously his wife would like pull them off his eagle easel and say, No, that one's done, now we'll get started with the next one, you know. But seriously, you know, that's you know, you need that um sometimes, or otherwise you just there that's where the madness is, it's just keep on going. And I guess also when when you become um more of a complete painter is when you know when it's finished, when you can say, Hey, you know, this I can walk away from this now. This is this is done, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:00

Yeah, that's a good that's a good point. And sometimes sometimes sometimes you can do a painting very quickly, and that's it. And you and it doesn't get any better than that. And it's yeah, and the more you recognize the times that you need to keep going and the times you need to leave. You know, it's it's a really it is a difficult kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:20

But then also the other thing is like when you work from life, that's it's a night, that's a really good way to finish to learn how to finish a painting because you've only got yeah a certain amount of time, and you know, you there's a moment when you're gonna have to walk away, and you're like, okay, well, it's getting dark, or life is changing, you know. You have to kind of be prepared to say, Hey, you know, I'm walking away from this. And I think if you know, if you're just starting out with painting, I would urge you to work from life because um it'll give you that time constraint that you need to have, yeah, you know, so you can step away from it. Um that's a good point. But then you get them back in the studio and then you start glazing and you know, scraping down, and then your money working with them forever, you know. I'm in my studio now and I've got like a whole bunch of paintings. I'm looking around going, you know, that was not finished, I've got to keep working on it. I'm having to be here all bloody rest of my life.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:15

Probably will be. Nice. Shall I end on a money quote? Go on, man. End on a quote. Um I must have flowers always and always. End my wish is to stay always like this, living quietly in a corner of nature.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:36

He made it. He did it, he did it.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:39

That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:39

Oh, he got it all.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:41

So it's kind of a happy ending to the story. I mean, in in the sense that, you know, the paintings they did kind of finally uh get their kind of recognition, but it it took longer than than maybe we all thought.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:56

That's what happens, you know. That's life for a painter.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:00

Just taking a taking a personal note on that one. Might take a little bit longer than you think.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:09

Exactly. But yeah, no, great show, Cisco. Um Artful Dodgers. We've got more shows coming. Some of them are already pre recorded now and are just waiting to go out there. We'll be putting them out there very soon. And we've got another show coming in a couple of weeks. Uh, thank you for listening. It's goodbye from me, and it's goodbye from him.