Breathing Underwater | Episode 24

WARNING: THIS PODCAST HAS SPOILERS

WARNING: This episode contains discussion of domestic violence, emotional abuse, toxic relationships, and physical assault as portrayed in Breathing Underwater by Alex Flinn. Listener discretion is advised.

Join us for our version of book club as we dive into different books and tasty libations every Thursday!

This week we dive into Breathing Underwater by Alex Flinn.

Popular, wealthy teen Nick Andreas is on a journey to break the cycle of domestic abuse.  After hitting his girlfriend, Caitlin, Nick is given a restraining order and court-ordered anger management counseling. As he confronts his inner demons, Nick faces the harsh reality that he is becoming his abusive father.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

You can't really breathe underwater.

SPEAKER_03 0:03

Well, we've talked about that. You can do it, but uh, you know, you can do it once. Um Hey Boo.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Hey.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

How you doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:14

A little warm, but okay.

SPEAKER_03 0:15

A little warm. Well, uh our AC apparently decided to go out today, this afternoon. Got a nice text from Boo here saying it's 83 in the house. It was. Yeah, by the time got yeah, by the time I got home, it was 86. Um, we're used to it being hot. It got up to 90 almost today, 89.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Yeah, because we're in Georgia.

SPEAKER_03 0:39

We're used to it, but we knew something's off, so we're gonna have to call the repair man tomorrow. So, right now we're just gonna power through it. Sorry if we could look nasty. Thanks for the people that just listened. Shout out to the four of you, and uh and uh shout out to our 80 subscribers. We just hit 80 on YouTube today. Oh yeah, I was pretty pumped about that. We were at 78 a few days ago. I saw it go up to 79, and then we hit 80. So whoever the 80th is, shout out, appreciate it. You get to see us glisten today. Um, before we jump into the book, uh, we are just doing a very, very simple Mexican mule or tequila tequila, tequila mule. Uh, we still had that 21 seeds cucumber jalapeno tequila that we enjoyed. Mix that with a little bit of ginger beer, some lime juice, and keeping it simple since it's kind of refreshing and uh everything came from our fridge, right? Well, except for the tequila, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Well, yeah, but that's probably my favorite tequila now because it's so good.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

It is it is very tasty and it's light. It's only 35%. So uh 70 proof, pretty, pretty low proof. Um I don't know. A lot of a lot of alcohol, you know, a lot of tequilas and stuff that I like are like higher than that. Um I like 90s and stuff. Okay, it's warm, so let's just bust through this. So cheers.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Cheers. My drink is really full, so first sip?

SPEAKER_03 2:07

Oh man. Being that it's so hot, that's refreshing. Oh, I see your face.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

It was the lime at first.

SPEAKER_03 2:14

Oh that's the refreshing part of me. I'm like, oh refresh.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

It's like your first sip of a sour beer.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

You do that little hits you in the back.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Yeah, but that is really good.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

Well, before we jump into the actual book, then do you have a word for us this week?

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Yeah. So the word is internal conflict. It's words. Uh it's a struggle that takes place within a character's mind. That character may wrestle with emotions, beliefs, guilt, fear, desires, or difficult decisions. And I looked up how it would pertain to this book because I unfortunately didn't finish it. Who's taking a DNA on this one? Nick confronts um consequences of his actions, denial. He has denial, anger, guilt, and then he comes to um terms with how he was raised and how he then in turn did those same abusive actions to his girlfriend. And that helps with his character development, the internal conflict.

unknown 3:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:28

So it was internal conflict. Internal conflict. So that way I can try to bring it back in and do a callback to it with my notes. Okay.

unknown 3:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:41

We're gonna get sweaty, Boo. Here's going, it's just gonna be like that. It's just gonna be like that. So um, so Boo just told everybody she's taking a DNF.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Well, see, I feel so bad too, because this was a friend's recommendation. Um, I feel like if I would have read this when I was younger, I could have breezed right through it. But reading it and the pacing for me, it just wasn't there. I feel like this is like the things we left unfinished. If I give myself a second chance to read it, I feel like I'd do better. Probably finish it. Um, but I got to page 43.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

43. And there was 260 something, I think we said last time. Something like that. Uh okay, well, that's not too too bad. Um why did you stop? I guess it you just said it was the pacing. Did it have anything to do with like the format of the journal, going back and forth from the journal to no, because I I would typically like stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Okay. Um, I think it was the age of the characters, and then I get that his character is supposed supposed to be um very hard to swallow and arrogant and his beliefs. I understand that. Um but me, I just couldn't I was just like, oh I can't, I I just can't connect with his struggle, but I can totally see how this book with what I gathered about it would be such a good thing to read for teenagers. So that little blurb on the back, completely correct.

SPEAKER_03 5:24

I had points during the book where I literally would be working by myself in the back, and I would be like, Whoa, like some of the situations and things that he said to his girlfriend, I uh multiple times where I'd be like, Oh my goodness, like, oh, ooh, you're in trouble. Like, um, so it made me feel things.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

And um so if I would have kept going, I probably would have been in the same boat as you.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe not. Um, but the thing that you just said, you said something about, you know, he's unlikable in the beginning. So question that I actually had was uh, I wonder if Alex Flynn, the author, intentionally made him that way. Wipe my sweaty forehead real quick. Uh unlikable so readers could see how uh abusers think and stuff because like he he was that way, he's unlikable, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Um I mean, also from what I read, Nick, the main character, like you could really see how he wasn't taking accountability for even just slapping his girlfriend. I mean, didn't he get a restraining order put against him by her too? Yep, yeah, like and he's like, nah, I didn't deserve that. If we could just talk, like he couldn't take accountability for that just the slap, let alone the things you just said, but I didn't read that far.

SPEAKER_03 6:49

Well, keep that. So the whole accountability, like the slap, the courtroom thing, um, how he was like, I didn't do that or whatever. Keep that in mind because I I kind of want to circle back to that later as well.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Yeah, I would like to hear what he did.

SPEAKER_03 7:04

Yeah, well, well, we yeah, definitely we'll cover that. Um, it gets crazy. Like, I I told you today, I was like, oh man, you missed out. Um you did. I think, and before I jump into my notes and just try to break it down for us, um I think that I enjoyed it for a few reasons. And I was trying to think of them earlier. So, one is one of my favorite books, holes. I haven't read it since I was in sixth grade or whatever, but you know, that used to be, and that was a correctional camp for boys. He was caught up in something and went there, you know, he had to dig the holes. Um, so it's kind of like the whole growing up a young boy. So I think I'm, you know, I'm always like, oh, I don't care about high school stories and stuff, which I I don't. But I mean, I think this one was written well, and it was from the guy's perspective where I was like, oh man, like you shouldn't be acting that way. I've known people, like when they had their first girlfriends to be acting that way, and jealousy and things to come up, so not not as bad. He never did it, but the whole like thought process. We're gonna meet each other after every single class. You can't you can't be with anybody else. It's the controlling aspect, but it was really like the first girlfriend, really, and like you know, the um first real situation or not situational ship, but relationship situation. Um so it put me back into those days of being like, okay, well, like, okay, how you know, how did I act? We're trying to reflect on how I did back in the day, but then also think to like how boys back then did the book was written in 01-02, re-released in 02. Um if it was written nowadays, I wonder how it would be received. Because like it I wonder if they're still dealing with the same stuff. Or I feel like boys are more respectful nowadays because but I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

I feel like some things have changed, but also there are always stories out there where there's the controlling significant other, and then like the girl or the guy, because it can happen to guys too, they lose all their friends, they lose connections to their family, and then all of a sudden they're isolated, and then that control is that control is just there, and they can't leave easily. So I think it's still very relevant. It doesn't matter if it's high school, like people our age and older go through that still, right? So true.

SPEAKER_03 9:41

Just a question. Um, well, that was one reason is because it kind of reminded me of holes, not so much like writing style or anything like that. Just that's just what hit me first. And I was like, oh, holes like okay, uh bad boy coming up and learning about himself type thing. Um, and then the narrator's voice for the uh not pod, but the for the audiobook. In some parts, he actually sounded like Matthew McConaughey.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_03 10:05

And that made me happy. So uh it was really easy to listen to, and uh I like how it did go between kind of present day and the journal, and it we learn the past and what happened from the journal. Yeah, and what's kind of cool, we'll touch on it later, is like the journal helps him grow. And at the end, we really see that.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Well, it's like a form of therapy, it is like when you write in a journal, it's it it is, yeah. Um, well, it's funny.

SPEAKER_03 10:35

Fiji's not a sponsored spin there. Okay, sorry, it's funny. What were you saying?

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Um on the January 10th part of this, this was like page I don't know, 17. Um, this is his first meeting with Mario at the um meet anger counseling thing. Um and Mario, the leader of that group, he's um he says, You will take responsibility for your actions. I'm not the court system or your girlfriends. So I won't accept I was drunk as an excuse. If everyone who got drunk beat up on someone else, we'd all have black eyes every day. And being plain old pissed offs, no defense either. If you think your girlfriend's the biggest slut in the world, leave her. Don't hit her. You are responsible for your violence, you won't get better till you come to terms with that. And when I read that, I was like, that's right. You are responsible for your own actions. Yep. No matter what you may think or believe, like you are. Yep. I mean, there's so many people out there with the victim mentality. There's so many people out there that can't be held accountable for anything. So, like, that's why, like, at work, if I mess up, I'm gonna be like, I messed up. Like, oops. It's better to be honest about that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 12:05

Yeah, absolutely. Um, okay, I'm just gonna do a quick summary. Yeah. So breathing underwater follows Nick Andreas. Andrias. Andreas. Uh, a high school student who is arrested for assaulting his girlfriend, Caitlin. Rather than serving time, he's ordered into on camp or into counseling and must keep a journal. The novel unfolds through those journal entries as Nick slowly confronts his abusive behavior and toxic lessons he learned from his father. Um, so taking accountability for actions. Mario I like Mario's characters throughout the book. Um they I think all of the people in the class learn from it. Um so I thought I think that's cool that you brought that up. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Well, I have another thing from him that he said, we'll get to that later, but it's also why the book is called Breathing Underwater. Yeah. I feel like. And it was just so it was pretty how it was written. Yeah. I think.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

Yeah, and they bring that up multiple times. Uh not the whole breakdown of it, but just saying, Oh, breathing underwater or whatever, and you know what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

It's like you're suffocating under your emotions when if you think about it. I mean, you're it's and you get in you're getting overwhelmed, and it's like, I can't, I don't know what to think, I don't know what to do, and then it's like you're breathing underwater.

SPEAKER_03 13:32

Yep. Yep. Um, okay. The let's see, can someone become an abuser actually change? Or someone that is a an abuser actually change? Uh that's like the big question, I think, in the book.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

So because I didn't finish that, I don't know how that ends up in the book, but I think in some situations, yes, not all. Not all at all. Like they there are people that will never change, like narcissists. They're they're never gonna own up to being a narcissist. Um, there are people who are young, probably like the main character here, who it's a learned behavior from how they were raised. And if you go to counseling, if you set yourself up for success and distance yourself from those bad influences, whether it be your dad, like with Nick, or whether it be your friends, you can learn better tools to support yourself and take accountability for your actions.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

So I think in some ways, yes, some ways no. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:40

It's a good uh good topic to debate, you know. Um, so there's a couple major themes. I'm just gonna read them off real quick. Uh the ones that I found that I want to cover. I'm not gonna cover them right now, I'm just want to go through them. Uh, accountability versus excuses. Yep. Toxic masculinity.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

That's a good one.

SPEAKER_03 14:58

Yep. Manipulation isn't always physical on the cycle of abuse. Um, so then the characters, the main ones that I kind of want to cover. There's a few on the side that I'll kind of talk on to, but Nick for sure. Yeah. Uh Caitlin, his girlfriend, and then his dad. There's a lot of people that like come through, like Mario or Tom, or Tom. Yep. There's a lot of supporting characters and stuff. Um, but let's see. The journal format, I like that.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Yeah, I like those types of books.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

So told through uh his counseling journal. Pros feels personal, uh, because it's like, you know, his side of it. And that could be bad, I guess, for some people to read it that way because it's like, oh, well, it's just one-sided story, but it is his story, you know. So we're reading and we're hearing his side, which the way that his writing went from in the beginning, like, oh, I don't want to do this, to in defense of yeah, he's going over the word count. Um, so he really got into it.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Well, that first one he was like off by a word. He's like, I'll add that word tomorrow. Yeah, yeah, or next week or whatever it was.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

Um really realistic growth. So that's I think a thing that shows through there. It is slow, it's messy, it's inconsistent. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Um growth is very inconsistent.

SPEAKER_03 16:25

Yeah, through through this book, it definitely shows. I mean, you don't know any of the circumstances where it happened, but um Nick is hard to like. Um trying to shake him for like half the book, you're like, ah, whatever, whatever. Uh, but I could see why people wouldn't even like him at the end of the book either. Um after learning everything he did, after learning everything, and even seeing growth or whatever you see. Um Caitlin feels underdeveloped. That was one thing that um there's another book. I think it's at the end of this one, right? It's Caitlin's side of it.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Um, want to know what happened to Caitlin? Read diva and find out. That's what it says.

SPEAKER_03 17:13

Okay. Uh, I wonder when that one came out.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Lots of girls I know call themselves divas. I'm such diva, they say. That's how it starts.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

Um, I thought her character was kind of like I don't know. What did you say earlier? Someone that's like in the related, like not a pushover, but I don't what they're controlled. They're controlled.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Well, that could be maybe it was because I didn't read it, so I can't be sure, but like maybe because she was so underdeveloped, because the author made it so on purpose to kind of show that this wasn't her world that we're reading about. This is that's his Nick's world. Yeah, but the abuser's world, like which, like I said, it's his story.

SPEAKER_03 18:05

Yeah he's the one going to class, he's the one that has to learn the lesson. So we're hearing it from his side.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

Yeah, but it also builds on the fact that how he views her, probably, versus where's the death of her? Like, where's the death of her character? You know? It could be built on that.

SPEAKER_03 18:23

The death of her character, she doesn't die.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Death Death. E E P A.

SPEAKER_03 18:29

Depth?

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Depth.

SPEAKER_03 18:32

You said the depth of her character, I was like, she doesn't die.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Death.

SPEAKER_03 18:36

Depth. Okay, so what about the depth of it? I'm sorry. I was I was locked on death. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

Well, we probably don't see that in this book because it is coming from his POV, Nick's POV. So it's probably like how he viewed her wasn't as a whole person, but as someone he wanted to wanted to obtain and keep. Yeah. So we don't get the full picture of who she is.

SPEAKER_03 19:09

Absolutely. Uh that's made clear throughout the book from his his POV. Um, there's a school talent show, and everybody's like, oh girl, you should sing and stuff. And he was like, You shouldn't sing because he didn't want people to look at her on stage. Because he's like, Oh, because then people will look at her and be like, Oh wow, she's really cool, she's good. I want her, yeah. Like, I can't let her go, she can't leave me. He's like, You can't do that. He's like, You're fat, you suck at singing, and you'd embarrass us both. And she was like, Okay, you're right. I I'm not that good. But the teacher said I could I should do it. So putting her down, so putting her down, and that's like when I heard things like that, I was like, Whoa, like when he's like, You're fat, you suck, and I was like, Wow. She did go to some fat camp, apparently, but uh there was points where he would say, Oh no, you're beautiful, you're this, you're that, don't worry. But then whenever she would kind of go against him or something, he put her down, it would change, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Oh yeah, it's uh love bombing when he's getting his way, and then I I think the term is called nagging. I could be wrong. Probably. Um, where he puts her down if he doesn't get his way to like put like I'm better than you. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 20:22

Everything's her fault.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Uh oh yeah, yeah, no accountability.

SPEAKER_03 20:26

Uh and one thing, so Mario, one of the things that he says, one of the lessons is like, uh, okay, so your girlfriend's like to pick you up. What's your first thoughts? And then they're like, uh Was it, can I guess? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

Where they'd be like, she was out with someone I didn't approve of, or she was probably with another guy. Was it that?

SPEAKER_03 20:52

Yep. Oh, she's she's cheating on me. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. She I need to put her in her place. And Mario's like, no, you know, you're writing the story for yourself. Why do you keep looking at my hair?

SPEAKER_01 21:03

You were just messing with it.

SPEAKER_03 21:04

Sounds like I'm just like, uh, but he's like, no, you're writing your own story, and what you're writing is making yourself upset. What if she was in an accident? What if she had to take her mom to chemo care? What if all these other things happen? Right. Yep. And instead of thinking, oh, I hope she's okay, what's going on, and rewrite the story, and then you're worried about her, and then when she gets there, you're happy. You're writing it as, oh, I'm gonna be mad. And then you take it out on her. So um sad. Yeah. Made me think about real life situations. Like, you know, people did do that. Like that's thankfully I don't beat you. You hit me sometimes. Yeah, you better no you know is nothing to joke about.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

So you just oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Um it's crazy hearing all that stuff. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 22:07

Um okay, let's see. Now with the doopdo scroll back up. So the cycle of abuse. So Nick grew up watching his father abuse his mom. And then he says, and then my mom left, but left me with the abuser.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

That's hard. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:32

So during the story, like his dad doesn't really, in my opinion, know how to communicate, show love, things like that. Because his dad came over when he was very young from Greece, I think he was Greek. And it's hard work, discipline, no goofing off, you gotta make it. And that's how he did it, and now he's very wealthy.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

And but also it could come across as abusive, right?

SPEAKER_03 23:04

Well, he did hit Nick. Oh, okay. So yeah, he abused him. So yeah. That's sad. Um, but when later on in the story, he finds uh a rubber, and he was like, Is this yours, Nicholas? And then finally, Nick's gets kind of fed up with his dad, and he's like, Yes. He snaps and says, And then he's like, I brace for him hitting me. And he doesn't, he doesn't hit me. He's like, What's going on? And he says, Congratulations, my son, you've become a man. And then he pours him a shot of uh scotch that he was drinking and gave it to him, his 16 or 17-year-old son now at the time. Um, and they talked about it, and he's like, you know, something like you won't hit me or something. He talked and he said, you know, that's how I grew up. It's discipline and that and that.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Well, it's sad when you you expect to be hit.

SPEAKER_03 24:03

Yeah, he was he was bracing for it. There was a teacher, so there was a teacher that was catching on to what was going on because there would be times where between him and his dad.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

Correct.

SPEAKER_03 24:13

Yeah, so when he would he would miss school, he'd be like, All right, well, dad, you gotta write me a note because I got I'm not feeling well. Caitlin one time wanted to come over during that, and he was like, Don't come over, don't come over. And that cost some ruffles and stuff. She was like, I want to come over and see you. And uh then he wasn't able to go to a I think it was a football game, or yeah, football game because he played football. And he was like, Well, I since I'm not going, you're not going. She's like, Oh, but like everybody's going. He's like, Yeah, but like I can't, I can't, so you're not.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

And so it sounds like because he had no control, the only way he could get power was taking it from her.

SPEAKER_03 24:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

And but that's also not right.

SPEAKER_03 24:53

Yeah. Um, so in the end, though, he does kind of learn from it. He ends up trying to take the class again, or not trying, he does take the class again.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

Well, that's good.

SPEAKER_03 25:10

Uh, when Mario's like, Okay, everybody, you're good. I'm gonna tell this course that you guys have passed. He was like, Hey, I want to do this again. Um, and he he kept writing in his journal, it was like, You're still not reading this, right? You said you weren't gonna read this, you're still not reading, right? And then kind of stopped saying that at the very end of the book. He's like, Will you read that? Will you take time and read that? If you have time, he's like, I'll take time to read that. So you can see through the journal how it really did change him. And then he did heal him, help heal him. Yep. Um, he talked to Caitlin, I believe it was, like, kind of towards the end and was just like, Look, I'm sorry. Because he kept calling her because the restraining order couldn't see her, couldn't do whatever though he did. Um, but he called her and said, Hey, I'm sorry. And he tried to explain it, and he explained it terribly because he's never really apologized, probably for anything in his life. And she was like, Wait, so you're comparing what you did, you beating me up to that? And he was like, No, no, no, no. Like, I said it terribly. Just no, I'm sorry. You didn't deserve anything I did. I know I'll never get you back, blah, blah, blah. But I want to let you know I'm sorry. So I thought it was a kind of decent way to have an ending. Yeah. Now, he still obviously yeah, he beat her up. He should be in jail. Whatever. Have your opinions. But he went through his stuff, he learned he wants to continue to grow. So I thought it was kind of a cool little wraparound. Um, not saying that he won't do it again, and abusers always change or whatever. You never know. You never know. We're just talking about Nick, this fake fake character from this book. So um he continuously. Oh, sorry, he constantly um, he constantly, I can't talk, has excuses uh for his actions by comparing himself to his dad. Um, the book explores how people can repeat harmful patterns. Uh accountability versus excuses. Nick spends most of the book making excuses. Um, the if she's late, it's this, or you know, I I can't do that, so you're not going. Or uh the whole school would look at like, you know, if you sang bad, it would reflect bad on me. Just like excuses and bad things like that. Sorry, my phone keeps blowing up. Um there were points where like he was waiting for her at one point. She was in the chorus room. He was like, Where is she? She should be out here. Where is she? And then he went back there and he heard her singing, and there was another guy in there. And then he did the and they're like, Oh, sorry, we didn't see you there. Hey, Nick. And uh he was like, Yeah, like blah blah blah. And then right when they walked out of the room, he's like, You're not seeing him again, or something. And like that, I think that's actually when they brought up the the singing, the whatever it's called, talent show. Talent show, yeah. Uh and that's when he was like, You're not doing that. No, like he said, no. Oh, and this at this point, he's like 16 years old. He's like, You're acting that way, like I didn't have the cojones for that back then. I would never act that way. I'd be scared. Um, very scared. Uh, let's see. Well, I found my next point. Do you have anything to say? And if it's cool, if not.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Not right now.

SPEAKER_03 28:47

So let's see. Toxic masculinity. A lot of things that like I guess young boys often hear. Men should be in control. Jealousy means love, which I don't know, like um, aggression proves strength.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

And that's yeah, that's a thing that like funny because if you ask ladies what shows strength, a lot of times they'll be like understanding and exploring your emotions, yeah. And actually being there for your significant other, that is strength.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

So yeah. One thing that shows it shows in the book is in at one point he is calling Caitlin a lot of really mean things in front of his friend.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

In front of Tom?

SPEAKER_03 29:37

I believe it was Tom at the time. And Tom pulled him aside and said, Hey man, that's not cool.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Oh, that's good.

SPEAKER_03 29:44

Yeah, like, hey, you're you you're talking really, really bad to her, and she doesn't deserve that. That's not cool. Like, you need to change, dude. And he was like, No, blah, blah, blah. It's her fault. She she's she she needs to be called a fat cow because she's a fat cow, like, whatever. But later on in the book, there's a guy in his class who they kind of end up becoming friends, and not class room, but his uh family's family violence class. They end up becoming friends, and at one point, uh, that's the guy. So I said, we'll bring it back up. Uh, the guy said, Hey man, the very it was the very first time in the class. He said, Don't worry, you guys, I won't be here long.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Oh, are we?

SPEAKER_03 30:27

I'm gonna get my girlfriend to drop the charges. I'm getting back with her.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

Tiny.

SPEAKER_03 30:33

No, tiny stays.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Uh was that Kelly?

SPEAKER_03 30:36

No, Kelly stays. Psycho? Nope. I thought it was one of them. It's not Liam.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

Lee.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

Leo.

SPEAKER_03 30:47

Leo. There we go.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

I've missed a name on my list. That's who I met so far.

SPEAKER_03 30:53

Leo says, Don't worry, guys, don't you don't have to get to know me. I won't be here long. Well, it's true. He leaves. Uh his girlfriend drops the charges. He gets out of the class. Well, at one point, he ends up walking or crossing paths with Nick out in the wild, and it was with his girlfriend, and they talked for a sec or whatever, and then they kind of started hanging out, so he knew who the girlfriend. And then at one point, Leo was talking real bad to his girlfriend, and that's when it was like, oh bad. That's when Tom saw when I was doing it. Okay. And he's pretty much said after that, he was like, I'm not gonna see him again. Um, and then Leo, there was one point where in class, the th like Mario's upset. Mario just says, like, all right, everybody, catch up on your reading. Like, we're not gonna, we're not doing things.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:51

And then his secretary comes in and's like, yeah, talking about the press or something. And everybody's like, What's going on? Well, no, sorry, they're like, whatever. Once everybody leaves, Nick's like, what's going on? So he sticks around and Mario's like, uh, hey, you were Leo's friend, right? And he was like, Yeah. He was like, Well, he's dead.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 32:11

Yeah. He went in and shot his girlfriend or ex-girlfriend because she tried to break up with him or something, and then shot himself.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

See, that's the most dangerous part of being an abusive relationship is trying to leave. Because they can't have you, no one can.

SPEAKER_03 32:27

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

So uh sad reality.

SPEAKER_03 32:30

That was pretty crazy for him because like he was like, Oh no, like I'm not, he is me. Like, I'm not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Did well, did the girlfriend survive?

SPEAKER_03 32:38

Uh no.

unknown 32:39

Oh dang.

SPEAKER_03 32:40

I think took her and himself.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

But uh this is some this is a heavy book.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

Yeah, that's why I said you missed out. You missed out, boo. Um, maybe you should read it on your trip this week. Oh no, we gotta read it.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

Yeah. I'll pick this one back up probably in the future, but I just couldn't this week.

SPEAKER_03 33:00

Yeah, understandable. Um, doo doo doo. Well then I just kind of have a few. Let me just look at my other way. Questions.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

We need to put a disclaimer that we're talking about sensitive subjects on this one.

SPEAKER_03 33:18

Um so does understanding of the abuser help prevent abuse?

SPEAKER_01 33:24

Um, I feel like if it's the abuser trying to understand where his feel his or her feelings are coming from, and they're actively trying to fix themselves to not lash out or control or manipulate, if they're actively trying to understand why they do things. Wait, what was the question?

SPEAKER_03 33:49

Does understanding an abuser help prevent abuse? So does understanding the kind of their mindset, what they're thinking, understanding where they came from.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

If it's the abuser trying to understand and go to therapy and figure this stuff out, hopefully they will get good building blocks to prevent them from lashing out, to prevent them from being manipulative. Hopefully. That's all I mean, you can hope for that before something bad happens, like with Leo and his girlfriend. Yeah. But I think it's interesting. Like there's psychologists, there's different types of mind doctors, I don't know, all of those. Um, but they study why this happens and study how the brain works, and it is good to understand it, but I don't think from the outside perspective, if you were the one getting abused, or if you are just an outside witness, I don't think you could ever fully understand it. Because, like, why why did that happen to me mentality? Or why would you someone do that to someone else? Mentality.

SPEAKER_03 35:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

That makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 35:06

Why do people stay in unhealthy relationships? Obviously, this isn't a one answer fits all situations.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Generalizing it, I feel like sometimes you're so controlled and isolated, especially in physically abusive ones and mentally abusive relationships. Um when you're isolated like that, it's hard to get out. You have no support system to get out. Um, toxic relationships in general, sometimes it's comfort, sometimes it could be they don't have money to leave, sometimes it could be stubbornness, it could be anything. It really can be anything. Sometimes they're lying to themselves why they don't want to leave. It could be very much anything.

SPEAKER_03 36:08

Well um you said something about the breathing underwater part. I know you kinda touched on that. Did you want to say anything else about that?

SPEAKER_01 36:22

Yes, uh, I'm gonna read. This is like when the redneck no AJ. So the psycho. This is what they they name nicknamed AJ Psycho. He was freaking out during like the first meeting or this yeah, the first meeting. And um Mario says on page 19 Nevermind. Uh he says Yeah, anyone else feel like that, Mario says to the group. Kelly, aka the redneck, says, like what? I have no idea what this waste case is saying. Mario shrugs. Life like your life's a big act. Like you're trying to be a man when you j when you're just a scared kid. Trying to keep under control when you really want to scream, cry, maybe hit someone. Ever feel like you're breathing underwater and you have to stop because you're gulping in too much fluid. AJ begins to sob again. Mario gestures toward him. This is what we were gonna do anyway. So it's not having the correct coping mechanisms or the maturity in some cases to be able to express your emotions. That's why, like I said earlier, women find men who can express their emotions in a healthy way very attractive. But when you can't, whatever the punch things. You don't do that. But like when you can't express your emotions or when you feel trapped and all these feelings coming at you and you can't tell what they are, that is breathing underwater. And so what do you do? You lash out because you have nowhere else to have that energy go. So I really liked how Mario the few things I saw him or read that he spoke was very very poetic in a way.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:31

I think he was uh I liked Mario's character. I think he was good for the guys in the class. Yeah. Cool. Um, I don't think I really have anything else. I'm trying to think. So we went through the story. So Leo talked about him, and I liked how he realized how Nick realized, like once he saw Leo speaking down to his girlfriend, he realized that, oh, that was me with Caitlin.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

Um was there any advancement with Nick and his dad? Uh did they ever resolve anything or did he tell his dad anything, or no? Did he just keep living with him?

SPEAKER_03 39:16

I think he just kind of kept living with him. Now it was, you know, when he found the rubber from him and that whole thing. Um, I think he kind of learned from that. But I think he also said like he didn't get hit from there, like it didn't, or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

But uh once he became a man, he didn't get hit, of course.

SPEAKER_03 39:37

Yeah, it was more the wreck, not reconcile, but the figuring it out and going with Caitlin at the very, very, very end. Um but that's a good question. Let me let's see, let's see. So a minute later, Mario's empty classroom. So that's when he was like, Hey, I want to do this class again. Um Fearfront Mario. Fingers floating against darkness. Oh, he started writing poetry. Oh, yeah, he did, so that was another thing about a kind of a growing moment for him. So the teacher, I believe, that um knew what was going on with his dad or caught on to what was going on, asked him and said, Hey, like, you know, you that's not happening, it's probably happening at home, blah, blah, blah. He said, It's not my dad. But she wrote a letter to his dad, pretty much saying, Hey, just want to let you know that Nick is such a good student in class, and blah, blah, blah. And like, it must be coming from home. So keep up, like, you know, you're doing a great job, or something like that. So it was kind of a way, and he read it because he was like, Oh, it's addressed to my dad, but it's not sealed. So he read it, told the teacher, Hey, you wrote my dad a letter. She said, Did you read it? He said, No. She said, Well, I meant for you too. And he's like, Well, then yeah, I did. And he took it as like, she knows what's going on. She she knows that he's getting beat, but she's not going through the proper channels of like, I'm not gonna tell anybody. That helps. Hey, like, I'm I'm watching you type.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

Because that's his only parent. He doesn't have anyone else to go back to, like, he has no one else. Yep. Um, so that makes sense, but also teachers are mandated reporters.

SPEAKER_03 41:14

I could be wrong about this, but I believe that was the same teacher that told him uh they were supposed to write poems, and he wrote it about Caitlin. Caitlin, right? Caitlin. Yeah, yeah. Uh and he didn't want to read it in class. So he just gave it to the teacher and said, I'm not reading it, but here you go. And then they discussed it later, and it had something written at the top, and she said she was going to submit it for poetry, some poetry thing, um, or some magazine. Well, ended up getting published later on anonymously.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_03 41:50

Because he was like, do it, but just don't like post my name or whatever, and because it was good enough to do that. And uh I think it was Tom that came up and was like, Hey, somebody said this was like Caitlin said, Thanks, you wrote this, showing him the thing. And he's like, Oh, well, yeah, I did. Um, and he's like, I got others coming out too. So it's like, you know, he's learning through the journal, he was able to like learn about express himself healthy in a healthy way in a healthy way. So then he started doing the poetry and then the journaling like that, and wanting to keep going with that. Um, but about his dad, I don't 10 minutes in my room. We're getting close, and we're back tomorrow. What did Leo do? Uh what's the newspaper calling Mario? The day Caitlin and I broke up again. Typically, Tom was a hero. Oh, that's in the journal. Um, yeah, I think that was just the big thing with his dad. It was just like he stopped beating him. I could be completely wrong about that, but I did finish it.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

How do you rate it? Well, unless you have more to say.

SPEAKER_03 42:50

No, I think that was it. I just wanted to make sure because I keep remembering those little things. Um, I would rate this. Let's see, it was entertaining to me, caught, kept my attention. It was a quick read. Um, yeah, it made me actually go, whoa. Um, I would say like a three five, three six, three, five, five, three, five, five. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

I put an extra five there for you. Cool. Well, I'm glad. I'm glad I'm really glad you enjoyed it because you were very skeptical when you first when I first pulled it out. Yep. And I'm like thinking in my head, it's gonna be fun. And lo and behold, I didn't finish it. But then you're over here enjoying it, and that makes me very happy that you enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_03 43:41

I like books that you can learn something from, and also it's kind of like movies. I like movies that are like real life situations, yeah. Um, not so much into the fantasy world and stuff. So, and this is like that's a real life situation, you're reading about somebody dealing with it. Same thing with some. Of the other books that we've done.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

Um, well, it's gonna be you're gonna oh once that we explain what happens in the rest of the Thrown of Glass series, you're gonna be like, Man, I'm kind of mad I missed that emotional impact of that. Because it is like it's not obviously fantasy, but like it's the same feeling of the emotion behind it as probably as like real life situations.

SPEAKER_03 44:26

So, but we've done five of them so far.

SPEAKER_01 44:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 44:31

And we have three left. So I need to get through one more so that way the last two I can be like, oh wow. Like I put myself through heck for.

SPEAKER_01 44:41

Oh no, no. Because remember, should I go ahead and tell them what the next book is? Oh, and then I can get into that. Okay. Next book. We're only doing part one of Empire of Storms from Sarah J. Mass, because I will not be able to read the whole book because I'm traveling, but that's about halfway through. Um we will probably have a guest boo on.

SPEAKER_03 45:08

Fingers crossed.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

So, well, you're probably not gonna even read this, so all right.

SPEAKER_03 45:14

Yeah. If not, I'll just say here again, but uh uh. Wow. Uh-huh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

That works. Um, but we're probably gonna have a guest boo to help me go over part one. We shall see. That is pending. I'm gonna go ahead and read what this one's about. Okay. Kingdoms will collide. The long path to the to the throne has only just begun for Ailen Galathenius as war looms on the horizon. Loyalties have been broken and brought bought, friends have been lost and gained, and those who possess magic find themselves at odds with those who don't. With her heart sworn to the warrior prince by her side, and her fealty pledge to the people she is determined to save, Ailen will delve delve into the depths depths. Depths depths of her power to protect those she loves. I've never been able to say that properly. Um, but as monsters emerge from the her horrors of the past and dark forces become poised to claim her world, the only chance for salvation will lie in a desperate quest that may mark the end of everything Ailen holds dear. Dun dun dun. Yeah, this book ends on a cliffhanger. And I had to read, or I had to wait a whole over a year, I think, if I'm remembering correctly, for this book to come out. And guess who's not in it? Anyone from Empire of Storms. This is Kale's book.

SPEAKER_03 46:51

Is that good or bad?

SPEAKER_01 46:53

At first it was bad because this one ends on a cliffhanger, but it worked out. It's a very good Tower of Dawn's good. But yep.

SPEAKER_03 47:04

If you guys if Guest Boo comes, um maybe on the other side of the studio I can set up a game show where uh we have to do trivia, figure out who's the smartest with Game of the Glass.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

Figure out who's the smartest. You mean who remembers the most thrown of glass facts? Yeah. Maybe we we shall see. Because knowing me and Guest Boo, if she decides to join us, we will have a lot to talk about. That is gonna be a long episode if she and it's only part one. So if she can join us, I know it we're gonna just be well.

SPEAKER_03 47:44

Fingers crossed, and you people out there get ready.

SPEAKER_02 47:48

But yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 47:50

Well, everybody, thanks for watching. Thanks for listening. Until next week, we're out.

unknown 47:56

Peace.