I Do This for a Living
A show that asks how we can give as much time and energy to the things that matter as we do to the things that pay. I Do This for a Living is hosted by Serenity Bohon - sarcoma survivor, writer, and day jobbist, forever starstruck by anyone who finds meaning at work and in life.
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I Do This for a Living
Read Widely, Be a Human Sponge, and Embrace the Seasons with Caroline Starr Rose
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Meet Caroline Starr Rose, a children's author and prolific reader who believes we should all be lifelong learners and embrace a wide variety of genres when we read. Serenity and Caroline met online over their shared love for the book Anne of Green Gables and its author, L.M. Montgomery. In today's episode, they talk about the real work of being a published author and Caroline's passion for honoring the child experience. They also get very nerdy about L.M. Montgomery's life and journals.
Chapters
4:11 Caroline's journey to becoming a children's book author
6:06 What it takes
13:51 What's involved in the writer life (oy, the revisions!)
24:15 Other things Caroline wanted to be
29:15 What's next for Caroline
37:08 Let's talk L.M. Montgomery, author of Anne of Green Gables
55:54 Where to start with Caroline's books
57:30 It Worked for Me
Links
Find Caroline online: carolinestarrrose.com
CarrotTop Paper Shop on Etsy: https://www.etsy.com/shop/CarrotTopPaperShop
All things L.M. Montgomery: https://lmmontgomery.ca/about/l-m-montgomery/
Serenity's website, which used to be called Serenity Now: serenitybohon.com
Other mentions: The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society (book); Gretchen Rubin and her podcast Happier; Anne Bogel from ModernMrsDarcy.com and the What Should I Read Next podcast; Austin Kleon; The Life and Works of L.M. Montgomery with Dr. Kate Scarth, Chair of L. M. Montgomery Studies at UPEI (on Audible); Project Hail Mary (book by Andy Weir).
L.M. Montgomery quote in Caroline's frame and on Serenity's mug in their respective offices: "The work for which we are fitted—which we feel we are sent into the world to do—what a blessing it is and what fullness of joy it holds."
I Do This For a Living is independently produced.
Welcome to I Do This For a Living, a show that questions everything about work culture and asks how we can spend as much time and energy on the things that matter as we do on the things that pay. Sometimes the things that matter pay, and we'll talk about that too. I'm your host, Serenity Bohon, a day jobist and many other things, always happiest when I can focus on writing and creativity, which I get to do today. Today's guest is Caroline Starr Rose. I'm going to let her introduce herself. That's part of my shtick here, but I will explain how she came into my life. Caroline is my personal exhibit that good things can happen through the internet. I met her in the comments section of a bookish blog that doesn't exist anymore. We later met in person when I was flown to her city for a work trip, and she graciously met me at the airport, right? The airport for a chat. Caroline and I love many of the same things. And she is one of my dearest encouragers when it comes to my writing. And this podcast, she agreed to be a guest before I had even quite worked up the nerve to begin. So, Caroline, I want to ask how we know you and let you introduce yourself. But I have an idea for it. Okay. If you're okay with it. So the whole conversation is going to be about us getting to know you. But let's set the stage. Since you and I met online, I'm thinking you can introduce yourself with the question, where can I find you? Where can we find you? But three different ways. So, where can we find you online? Where can we find you on a map? I mean, you don't have to give like cross streets and coordinates, but and where can we find you at your happiest?
SpeakerOh, that's fun. Where you can, the only place you can find me online at this point in time is at my website, Caroline Star Rose, and that's star with two Rs. I blissfully left social media in 2024. I think it was October 2024, when um Meta stole three of my novels for uh the chat GPT training. I decided I don't think I would like to spend time anymore on these sites if they are taking from me. And why would I want to spend time here anymore? And I have to tell you, my hand was forced and it has been delightful. So I wish it hadn't happened in that way, but I am so happy to no longer be on social media.
Speaker 1So amazing. We may have to come back to that.
SpeakerOkay, so you can find me on my website. That's number one. Number two, you can find me in Albuquerque, New Mexico. This is my hometown. I moved here in first grade from Saudi Arabia, of all places, and I have lived here most of my life, off and on, but most of my life. And I love, love, love New Mexico. It's the land of enchantment and it just thrills my heart. And the last question is where can you find me happiest?
Speaker 1At your happiest.
SpeakerAt my happiest. I told my running partner this morning, it's getting warm enough now that when I come home from our Thursday morning run, I can sit in the backyard and after I've watered my garden, have my cup of coffee and do my New York Times crossword. And I am so happy. In those moments, I think, I have the greatest life. This is like, this is it. Sitting in the sunshine with my cup of coffee.
Speaker 1Love it. Love it. Thank you for answering those. I'm gonna come back probably to some of that, but let's start with a segment that I'm calling billable hours. Okay. What do you do for a living?
SpeakerI am a children's author. I have published at this point five novels for young readers, so middle-grade novels. They can be classified as books for eight to twelve-year-olds or 10 and up, depending on the publisher. And then I've also published, I think, five picture books as well. And those are for readers four to eight.
Speaker 1Amazing. Amazing. Can you answer this question as long or as short as you want? How did you get there? Wow.
SpeakerWing in a prayer and lot I call it here. This is the term that I use. Maniacal optimism is what got me here.
Speaker 1Amazing.
SpeakerAnd what I mean by that is I was driving this publish or perish dream hard for 12 years. And I wasn't sure if it was crazy or this was going to actually happen. But to the best of my ability, so much of this is luck and timing. But I I firmly believed I had something to say. I wasn't always sure what the something was, but I believed I had something to say. And I believed my writing could only get better the longer I practiced. And I practiced a whole lot longer than I ever knew I would need to. And that's great because I don't think I would have had the courage if you told me it would take me 12 years to find an agent. It was novel number four was my first book to sell. I had written six picture books and four novels. Novel number four sold. That was my first book, maybe. Picture book number five sold. That was over in the wetlands. But everything else, those ended up being practice manuscripts.
Speaker 1And they still sit in a shelf somewhere?
SpeakerOne, I took a chapter from and it ended up, uh I changed it and it ended up in an anthology. But everything else, yeah. Practice.
Speaker 1So my next question would be for people who maybe even younger people who just have an inkling, I might want to be a writer someday. What does it take to get to where you are? Would you say? Like what's the bare minimum? What should you absolutely do?
SpeakerFirst, you need to be a reader and you need to be a passionate reader, and you need to read everything. Well, maybe not everything, almost everything. Read things you want to read, read things that might not be your first choice. Just read far and wide and be curious and be hungry for the reading experience. Here's a little example. I was told when I was first writing, I thought I was going to be, well, I did. I was writing historical fiction, and the rule of thumb was to read a hundred books in your genre before you began your writing. So that's a good rule of thumb. Learn what's out there, know what's current. Another good rule of thumb is to read what's published in the last five years, and preferably even the last two to three years, because tastes change and trends change, and we're not chasing trends, but it is really important to see what sells now and what, you know, for example, how long a picture book is. And I'm not talking about word count because those are typically 32 pages, but you know, the number of words in a picture book. If you're writing far too many, that's going to show pretty clearly you're not attuned to what is selling and what is what what the flavor of the market is at present.
Speaker 1So I love how you said read widely, read what you don't think you'd like and what from my own story, I will say, um, that's something I feel missed because I pretty quickly decided on a genre I thought I wanted to write. And it took me probably a decade to realize I didn't even read that genre. Not very often. I didn't know that. Yeah. So what happened is I I had this memoir written and got an agent through that. Um, and then she was more in the fiction world. And I thought that's where I wanted to be because of my favorite, my introduction to reading was kind of all Anna Green Gables, and it was it was fiction. So I thought that's who I wanted to be as a um modern author as well. So I told her from the beginning, yeah, I've got this memoir, but I really want to do fiction. I want to do fiction. And um, the story I had in my mind felt young adult, so I went that direction. So I tried to write that for years, and I really didn't even read that genre that much. It took me forever to figure it out. So would you say, is that why you're saying read widely? Is that to first figure out what you want to write?
SpeakerI don't know, actually. Maybe that guess that is part of it. I think read widely because you need to know just like we are hopefully little human sponges that want to embrace the world. That's how I feel. I want to I just came home from a philosophy class. I just signed up for a continuing ed philosophy. Goodness. Like, I just I want to be a lifelong learner and I want to be well read. And if I'm someone who claims to love reading, then my gosh, I want my fingers in all the pies, you know? I just like I want to I want to sample and I want to know. And I think that's one reason I've been in a I've been in several book clubs over the years, but for the last five years or so, I've been in a local book club. There are around 10 of us, and we call ourselves the Dead Authors Society. You have to be dead to be read. We're classics, but we def, you know, how do you define classic? Well, we've decided if the author has passed away, we can you're in the running for a read. And, you know, I've read a lot of things that I wouldn't have chosen on my own, and it is so good for you. It's I don't mean it in like a taking your medicine sort of way, but maybe I do mean that a little bit because taking your medicine is good for you. And I, you know, I think like we can appreciate I just I think we should read more than what we think we like because I think we're missing out otherwise. And I I love what you said that we might realize, oh, this is not actually where my writing fits. But I just I think the world is big and I think I just I have an appetite for it. And I and I want, I I really think I think people who are driven to read are curious. And I just I I want to encourage people to read beyond what you think you might like because there's so many interesting things out there. Like, for example, a long time I didn't read a lot of nonfiction. I just felt like I I just could take it in little dribs and drabs, but I think it's so interesting. And, you know, maybe it's easier to listen to nonfiction for you rather than to read it. You know, so there's so many different ways that you can come to literature. It's such a gift. And I I just I get really excited talking about it.
Speaker 1Yeah, I can see you're one of those people who like, does it ever stress you out that you can't possibly read all the books you want to read?
SpeakerIt doesn't because it makes me feel wealthy. I feel like there's just this wealth, and I'll never get to it all. And that just leaves me feeling like, oh, it's a part to run out.
Speaker 1I love it. That is such a beautiful perspective. So is your book club traditional in that one person chooses and you all read the same book over the month or something?
SpeakerWe kinda we sometimes will build the list a year out, maybe just a few months out. We'll kind of throw titles out. So it's not like, you know, this is your month to pick, this is your month to pick. But beyond that, if the if the author has passed away, you're gonna be on the list.
Speaker 1So I'm sure this is this question is book club aside. Do you ever abandon a book? Do you ever start a book and not finish? No.
SpeakerOkay. Um and I don't, I do. There are times where I felt like that was awful and then I was fine not doing it. But I've kind of come back to not abandoning as much as I used to because of situations like this book club, where there are times where I'm thinking, like, this was not, I would not say I loved this book, but I'm really glad I read it. Like I like I took something from it. So how about I'm at the place where I can abandon a book? And I do occasionally, but I don't think I have as often as I have at other times because I like I can still glean things. And sometimes what I glean is that first indication that you should have abandoned it. Was a good one because it just never caught my fancy.
Speaker 1But now I had I was a no I was a never abandoner for a while because I I was testing like what is my taste or or whatever. And I didn't feel like I could abandon any. And then I've changed. Now it's more the same. I don't read enough books a year. I'm in kind of the 34 to 50 range. That's how many books I typically get to get to. And so now I will abandon just to get to books that are going to be more meaningful to me. But I try to use Austin Kleon's advice. He says, keep reading if you want to keep reading. Like you don't have to judge, is it good, is it bad? Do I like it? Don't I like it? Why don't I like it? Will I learn something? None of that. It's just do you want to keep reading? Then keep reading. If you don't, don't. And it's sometimes still hard because you kind of want that green check mark once you start. But I try. So let's get back to the writing career for a minute. Again, kind of thinking of people who sort of know nothing about the profession and what it would really be like. Okay. I would normally ask, what are three things you do almost every day on your job? But the way I think I want to ask it for you is what's three or just some things that you think people might not realize a writer has to do that's part of the writing life.
SpeakerI think revision is a huge eye-opener for a lot of people. So before I sell a book, I have drafted it and I have brought it to my critique group and reworked it. So I've several times over, I would say what I send to my editor that first time has already been picked over, not just by myself, but by others. And it's the very best I can make it at this point in time. So this is not a first attempt by any means. And then it goes to her, and we go through if it's really great shape, it'll be two rounds. If it's in not so good shape, it could be four, even five rounds of edits together. And what that looks like is she will send me a little letter, and here's one that's sitting on my desk right now for my last novel. Um, you can see it's all single spaced, and this is quite short. This one is This is just three pages. I felt like wow. But I've gotten like 10 or 12 page letters, and the first paragraph is something just so flattering, like, I love these characters, and you've just done so much to, you know, this, that, and the other, just buttering me up. And then the which which I mean, these are things too that she believes to be true. But then the rest of it is telling me all the ways in which the book is not yet working. And it is an intense, it feels like I'm taking a class that has been designed just for me. So, like the subject matter is the book, and my professor is my editor, and she is pointing out, you know, the pacing here is not working. This character's motivation doesn't make sense. It just all of these different things. And she'll say things like, you know, back on page 34, when you first mentioned this, that, and the other, and then back, and then on 96, when this happens, so it becomes, it is this like a course design for me. And it's a course to make my work better in the end. And so, you know, I'll get maybe 12 weeks to work on this, and then I'll turn it back in. And a few months will pass, and I get a new letter. And that new letter opens with that nice little paragraph again. Heavens. And then pages and pages of all the ways the book is not working yet. It is a rigorous process, and this is my favorite part of writing. I for me, drafting the getting that first idea down and finishing a first draft, not always, but is often pretty terrifying because it's this phase of creating something out of nothing, which is just like, how do you do that magic? I don't know. But once there are things on the page, even if I end up throwing out 75% of it, you know, like there's something there. And that's another thing. Like one of my novels, I ended up throwing out 75% of it twice. So my goodness. It's a very fluid experience. I think a lot of times people also think like you go in and like, boom, I know the story. I know the beginning, the middle, the end, I know all the high points. And when I'm they think it there's small tweaks that might take place. No, this is like major renovation. And not every book is the same, and some requires more heavy lifting than others, but that is the meaty part of this experience. I don't always know how to do the edits, but um it's showing up within that deadline day after day, looking at my letter, looking back at the manuscript, looking at notes I've written to myself. It's calling meetings with my agent or my editor and saying, hey, when you talked about this, I'm just about to get to that point and I have no idea what to do. You know, I've thought of this, this, and this. And we can like we talk about these characters like they're real, and it is, it can be really challenging and kind of scary, but it is so satisfying. It is really, really cool. So that I guess that's why it sounds terrifying. There are times I've lost sleep. There are times I've lost sleep.
Speaker 1But I know there's one of the podcasts I listened to, um, Happier with Gretchen Rubin. I think you told me about that. You did. You introduced me to Gretchen Rubin.
SpeakerI love that.
Speaker 1Yes, because I you sent me to her book, The Happiness Project. And then I've yeah, I'm so faithful to that podcast. She says when she gets an what's it called? Editor letter, editor's letter, she has to, she has just taught herself, don't just sleep on it at least once before you go back. Because she almost, the emotion is a little bit hard to take in the beginning.
SpeakerWell, there's so much information, like after page five or six, like your brain is you're not even registering anymore. And so I find my dog passed away last year, but I used to put it aside. Take the dog for a walk, make dinner, you know, let this kind of percolate in the back of my mind so that when I did look at it the next day, some of these ideas are already starting to come together. I mean, that there'll be things in this letter where I think, oh, yeah, I kind of thought that wasn't working. Then there'll be things like, I had no idea that wasn't working. And I can start to it once you have read it, set it aside, and then come back to it, you don't realize, but you've been kind of building these connections in the back of your mind as to, oh, okay, that makes a little more sense. And perhaps I'll head in this direction. But yeah, time is really time is huge in the writing process. Just the time to explore and sometimes learn what you don't want to say. Making those wrong turns is part of the process.
Speaker 1See, that's a great sentence for life and writing. Making wrong turns as some.
SpeakerWell, well, I'll I'll say this with picture books, a lot of people ask me if I am the illustrator as well. And I'm not. I do not have any skill in that area. But one thing that really surprises people is that for the most part, publishers work quite hard to keep the author and the illustrator separate. And the reason that is, is because they don't want the author to be pushy with the illustrator. The author has already done her work, written the story. You might have a few notes. It's ideally the manuscript is clear enough in that it can communicate. If you have an idea for an illustration that is not spelled out in the language, hopefully your manuscript is pointing toward that. But if it's not direct, you can leave a few art notes, but you're encouraged not to leave very many art notes because you want the publisher, or excuse me, the illustrator to have the space to tell their part of the story too. And if you're looking over their shoulder saying, excuse me, that's not what I was envisioning. Well, too bad. This is not your part of the story to tell. So what happens is it becomes the words plus the art equals it's not one plus one equals two. It becomes this thing that's exponential once it all comes together. It really is a magical thing.
Speaker 1What if someone is dreaming that they're going to be a writer-illustrator? They're going to write their write and illustrate their own books. Would you say there's no chance?
SpeakerOr I would not say that. And this is not my area of expertise. So don't take this with a grain of salt because I do know there are some people who have illustrated, have written, and then have illustrated and written their own books. But for example, you might turn in a manuscript and they might choose a different illustrator for it. My understanding is the more established you are, the easier it is to sell as an author illustrator. But there are some agencies that only take author illustrators. So you do submit as that sort of package. But to now. Don't quote me because things change and I don't know all of all of those sorts of things. I know especially if you say, if you want to be traditionally published and you've written a picture book manuscript and you say, and I want this person to be my illustrator, good luck unless you're established and that person is already coming in the door with you. Wow. Yeah, because if even if you come in the door with somebody's illustr illustrations, they might say, Well, that's not the direction we see this going. So you need to be pretty established to have that.
Speaker 1To know. Okay. One more question in the billable hours section. One thing about your work that matters.
SpeakerI feel really strongly. People sometimes ask me if I'm going to ever write for adults. And I think that's a very innocent question. But what I can hear in that, fair huh? I think I know where you're going. Is that what I'm doing now is practice and that you know the the adult books are the books that are the most worthy. And what I think is children deserve my best. These books are the books that shaped me as a human being more than any other thing I've read. And I read broadly, as we've already discussed. I want to be a part of that. So I'm trying to think of what your question was directly. I know this tied into it. How your work matters. How my work matters. My work matters because I want to write to what it means to be a child. I want to honor the childhood experience. I want to validate those feelings and those moments in time. You know, I'm I'm a mother, I'm a former teacher, I'm a children's author. These are things I should be thinking about often. And yet it's really easy to kind of poo-poo a child's experience in life. I mean, think about it. We talk about puppy love, or we talk about, oh, well, it's no big deal. You you failed the spelling test. You know, it do we we're really quick. And I think sometimes we do that to we think we're comforting a child, and maybe sometimes we are to give them some perspective. But it is very easy as an adult not to stop and honor those moments of fear or elation or confusion or new experiences. And I think children's literature really beautifully climbs into the skin, allows the reader to climb into the skin of the young person and experience these first moments.
Speaker 1I love it. Great answer. And it leads so well to the next segment. Because I want to talk about the things we dream of. So what is your earliest memory of knowing what you wanted to be when you grew up? Even if it wasn't the writer.
SpeakerYeah. Well, speaking of astronauts, I had uh the Space Shuttle Columbia poster on my wall for years. I thought, I think the space shuttle first one up when I was in first grade. And I think I wanted to be uh, well, I did, I wanted to be an astronaut, but Oh my gosh. The more I thought of that, I think, I think that would have been really scary. So maybe that was not for me, but yeah. Let's see. I can remember in kin in preschool, I said I wanted to be a nurse because everybody said they wanted to be a nurse. And that's also something where I think like that would have not worked out well for anybody. But I have wanted to write for a very long time. Right. You remember the first the first I can say in fifth grade, and I will say this, I had quite a few teachers who were so um encouraging about my creativity and who would tell me, like, you know, keep going with this story, or this is an interesting idea. And it wasn't until later that I realized a lot of kids and now adults did not have experiences like that in the classroom. And so I'm really grateful that I was encouraged in a way, you know, there's I think there's so many times we become afraid of creativity or unsure of our abilities. And to be told just matter-of-factly, you're doing this well or this is very interesting, tell me more, became very just kind of became a part of me that this was a part of who I am. And so I'm really grateful that I had teachers that that encouraged me to write more. But I will say in fifth grade, I had a friend in class, and we would write when when our schoolwork was done, we would write stories for each other. We would take a piece of paper, fold it in half, you know, the title page, and then there would be front back, there'd be three pages, and they would always be a cliffhanger. And it was a series, and we wrote 100 books in our series for each other. Oh my goodness. That's so cool. The real deal.
Speaker 1Oh, that's so cool. I love it. I was going to ask what draws you to children's literature, but you've told us that very well. Many of your books are also, or is it all, have a historical fiction element?
SpeakerMost of them, most of them. My most recent novel is my first contemporary, set uh in 2024 in New Mexico during fire season. So very exciting. That one's sold? That one's the burning season. If you oh, the burning season, right? And I are just together on online. Yes, yes. My poster over my shoulder there. So yeah.
Speaker 1Okay. Awesome. So what drew drives you to that historical though? The historical side.
SpeakerYeah, I think um so I did I taught um social studies for a few years, English and social studies mainly as a middle school teacher. And when I was in school, history was interesting to me, but I didn't necessarily feel especially bright when it came to uh history because there was so much to know. And there was just, you know, that's it's limitless. But when I read historical fiction, that's when history really came alive to me, when I could put a story back to the history. The first one I can remember, I was homesick. I was in elementary school, and I read When Hitler Stole Pink Rabbit, and I don't remember who that's by, Kerr, K-E-R-R, maybe. And I had never heard anything about World War II before. Wow, this was a story about a little girl, and it was a real, like it made, I mean it was fiction, but it just opened my eyes. And I just I feel like historical fiction has always done that to me to give another thing I really like is I'm more interested in the everyday people than the big events. Yes. And I love seeing it's a little bit like travel when you go to another part of the world or another part of the country and realize like we have more similarities than differences. I mean, across the ages, that's true too. What might be considered a luxury 500 years ago is very different than what would be a luxury today, but that longing for that thing is the same. And so I I just I really like the commonality. I like the just I'm curious about everyday lives and what those would have looked like. And yeah, so that's that that floats my boat. So that's what I like to write.
Speaker 1That is amazing. I love that so much. I have that experience with historical fiction too. When um what I when I read Guernsey, for instance, for instance, what's it called? The Guernsey. You haven't read Guernsey? Do you like Epistolary? It's a pistol.
SpeakerI know I need to read it. I need to read it.
Speaker 1I love it so much. And when I read it, I remember thinking, I will take all my history this way from now on, please. I just wanted, I wanted in fiction and I want it with the everyday lives and what how history really affected them. It was just beautiful. So um, so what is next for you in your writing world? What is next for you? I know, but let's tell the listeners.
SpeakerIn August, I have a historical picture book coming out called Books Up the Mountain: a Packhorse Librarian Story. And if you have read and loved The Book Woman of Troublesome Creek by Kim Richardson, I think is her name, or Jojo Moyes's The Giver of Stars, this picture book is for you and your children. It is a story of a bookwoman, which is what the women or what the women librarians in eastern Kentucky were called at this time. This is part of FDR's Works Progress Administration program that was meant to bring books to rural communities in Appalachia at a time when these people would have never had access to libraries before then, before this. And so it's just lovely how the grit and determination of these women. They were up before sunrise, they came home usually in the dark. They had um, they would travel miles every day, and each week would be a new route. They would carry books in saddlebags or in pillowcases. They would get to know their patrons and know what they like. Uh the excuse me, chills, children. You know, literacy was not as high as it would have been today. And so there were some children who taught their parents to read through this program. When school was out, the children would still come to the schoolhouse to meet their bookwoman to pick up their books. She would read to the people who didn't know how to read or the sick or the infirm. She was a messenger bringing messages from house to house and from town. And I mean, like it's just so beautiful to me. It's about the power of books and the power of community. And um, the illustrations are so beautiful. When sometimes my publishers will ask, you know, what they might say, What are you looking for? And don't I don't know how to express that very well, but I did say I would love somebody that can really evoke the sense of nostalgia. And I think these illustrations really have hit upon that. It's just they're they're warm and they're lovely and they're almost kind of dreamy and they're inviting and they're tender. I just this is again an example of everyday people doing everyday things that were extraordinary and it's really inspiring to me. So yeah.
Speaker 1I have been so lucky to see these images and the pages for this book. What strikes me as I think back to when I looked at it is the people's eyes are just lit up in them. You can just see just it's like learning love, friendly faces. They're just their eyes are lit up by Yeah, you're right. I also noticed that so at the end of the book, the book is is it written in prose or poetry verse? I think it's poetic, I would say. It is, I did too. I thought it was somewhat verse-like. And then there was a section at the end that really just spells out the context for the book. Do you in general find that children read both the book and then that part?
SpeakerIt depends. There are a few ways I can answer that. I can say with my own children, by the time I would get to the author's note, they'd be like, closing the book. And I'm like, wait a second, I'm I'm interested. And it also depends on how you write it, because this is a debate I've had often with my critique group. And for those of you who aren't familiar, a critique group is simply a group of writers that meet with each other, read each other's work regularly, and give feedback. And it's it's a great way to grow. You start to hear each other in your head, and you can also, in seeing other people's weaknesses and strengths, you can better see your own weaknesses and strengths. So it's just, it's a really good, and you you really become good friends. But one of the long-term discussions we've had in that group is who is the back matter for? Is it for the parent? Is it for the child? Is it for a combination of the two? Should I be writing it directed toward the child or to an older reader? And in this book, I have, I would say this is not necessarily directed toward the young reader. But there's some where I have written just a really simple bit of back matter directed more toward the child. And it it just kind of depends on the story, but there's a lot of history that I wanted to be able to explain in this one. And so it is a more elevated read, for lack of a better term.
Speaker 1Here's who I think it's for, okay? Yeah. The person who has that book as a child and loves it so much and reads it over and over and over. And then as they grow, they they pick it up someday for the nostalgia and they read that backpack or two.
SpeakerAnd they're I like that.
Speaker 1They grow, you know? They grow with the book. Yeah. I love it. Okay. So I like to call this segment maybe it's me. So it's just more getting to know you stuff. But my big question for you in this one is, what do you do for fun? And the reason I kind of ask is because I'm a writer as well, and I've always written. And when people would ask me what I do for fun, I didn't know what to say because really that's what I did for fun. Because and so you've made a living from it. It's your job. So do you have other things that are, I do this just for fun.
SpeakerYeah.
Speaker 1Or do you consider writing that?
SpeakerReading is like as much as I love writing, I love reading even more. It's just like, uh, I love it. Um, in the last few years, I've gotten into gardening, which has been so much fun to have a vegetable garden. Um, I love to run, I love to go to the gym, I love to be outside. Just, I just I love nature. And if you've read my books, you can see like, and this this connects to Lucy Maud Montgomery. I really think her reverence for your listeners, this is how I think we uh my memory of how we met is different from yours. Good. Tell me. Let me tell you, this is what what I think, but I could be wrong. I think one day I was Googling either Anne of Green Gables or Lucy Maud Montgomery, as you do, because you know, you just have to do these things. And I came across your blog, and you were talking about and this and and that, and I thought, oh my gosh, I have to follow. So that's how I think I met you.
Speaker 1I'm sure that's true. Did you even you know, do you know what blog I was referencing? Good girl lit and in May? No. You have totally invented that. I totally invented a false history for us. That's so I just remember Serenity Now, and I thought that is the coolest name I've ever heard. My blog used to be called Serenity Now. That's right. I'm feeling this is uh very life-affirming for me, Caroline. I thought we just, I thought we met by a third, you know, a third party, and it was you really did find me on the end.
SpeakerIt was your words and your passion for Anne. And I was like, okay, this is my online friend. And then we were, you know, we we did the social media thing and we would email back and forth, and we met at the airport, which was really fun. And I continue to read your newsletter and have read the thank you room. And you asked me a question and I don't remember what it is now. Well, I think what you do for fun. Oh, what I do for fun. So I read, I read, and I garden. And I love to be outside and I love nature. And I think if you've read my books, you can see kind of running through them all just reverence for nature, which I definitely know was stirred by my early exposure to Lucy Vaughn Montgomery's work. Absolutely. I love to I mean, really simple things. I love doing the crossword. Like my life is very quiet. My husband and I are empty nesters now, and it's quiet and it's lovely, and it's small. And I don't mean those as negative things. I mean them as really delightful things.
Speaker 1So we have so I did want to talk about L.M Montgomery. Our conversation has been so rich and full. I'm not even sure we need to go this direction, but I'm going to anyway. If we don't, I'll be very sad. Everyone wants to keep listening to this conversation, right? So we're gonna keep going. That's right. So speaking of our L.M Montgomery connection, so Lucy Montmontgomery, everyone, if we haven't made it clear yet, wrote the books Anna Green Gables and the Emily of New Moon series, which incidentally Caroline's middle, not middle. Is that your middle name? S T A R R is Caroline's middle name, and it's Emily's last name. Emily is another character by Lucy Mond Montgomery, whom I love. She's very much based on Lucy Mond Montgomery, so it's a more biographical series, which I love. So Caroline is the reason I first purchased the Lucy Montmontgomery journal. I love it. They used to be put out the selected journals. So there were some editing, and they apparently took out just bits and pieces, really, right? I think it was a cost thing at the time. And so they they tightened them. Yeah. So I've read those through at least twice, the first one many times, and I have highlights and underlines. They just absolutely fascinate me. And um, I know that you read other journals as well. You're kind of you love journal reading, I think.
SpeakerOkay. That's another reason I love historical fiction. I like to tell kids I'm nosy, and that is not a polite thing to like say. But, you know, like if I'm sitting in a restaurant overhearing your conversation, that's not very polite. But if I'm reading a journal or a collection of letters about, that's perfectly acceptable in my line of work.
Speaker 1Oh, I love it. That's so good. I I kind of wondered, because is element gonna be the only really the only journals I've read? And so they're my only kind of you started with cream of the crop. Okay. I was gonna ask you if reading her journals is a unique special experience or if they're pretty much all the same, or what you kind of okay. Tell me.
SpeakerTell me both. I mean, we're both, uh we can say we're coming in with a very strong bias here, but they are they're a study in. Are we truly able to record a life? Like that is such a good question because she she started journaling at 14 and continued until her death at 67, I want to say. And um she knew pr 1908 when she was 36, I want to say, is when Ann came out. And she was famous immediately. I mean, that was an instant bestseller. And so she had a sense pretty much from that time on that she wanted someday these books to be made public. And so we know she also recopied things, and there were times where there were like pages that were cut out. And so, how much editing went into like she she worked very hard to be truthful, and she talks about that. That I want to present myself truthfully. Um, she doesn't mince words. She, I mean, she doesn't there are plenty of unflattering things she says about people, which again makes it really interesting. They're they're very gossipy like her books, which is, you know, it's just really fun. And she could write about anything and make it interesting, like house cleaning. She makes that interesting. Right. And how I mean, that's a question you keep coming back to. How can we, how truthfully can we tell our own story? Because she truly was shaping it. And at the time of the writing, she would also write things in a notebook when she wouldn't have time to get back to it later. And then she would, you know, maybe write little notes to herself and then write the full thing in her journal later. And so there was shaping, there was, there were, there was revision. There was, you know, that writing process, there was shaping going on of the story she was recording and what she chose to write, what she chose to omit. And when these first came out in the 80s, the selected journals, there were people still alive who knew her at that time and were shocked. Like this cannot be the woman we knew. Oh my goodness. You know, because she's weird. For example, she dealt, you know, with a lot of depression and things and always very upbeat, or you know, something she might have said snide things, and well, I wouldn't have thought that she felt that way about this person or this event. And it was just I find her endlessly fascinating. Like you've you've read them twice. I have read them three times, and I've read now this last I read them every 10 years because I like ceremony. And most recently I have they haven't finished, like so the selected journals, as you know, are one through five, and they have not finished the complete journals entirely. I think there are nine, if I'm remembering correctly.
Speaker 1They know how many it will be. Yeah, I'm very anxious about this, Caroline, because I've purchased all of the published ones now.
unknownGood, oh, good.
SpeakerOf the full and I've read the first volume. The selected number four, when I read this two years, when I reread everything two years ago, I had to read half of the selected journals and then of volume four and then all of volume five selected journals because they have not and like I've gone everywhere, like when will they be published? Who is going to, you know, because the publishing houses have changed. Like, who's doing this now?
Speaker 1And yeah, I'm gonna use you as my informant so you can't be posted on because it was I'm here. I just re- I'm doing a rereading year. That's my thing this year. I'm trying to I wanna read books that I felt like shaped me at the time and see if they hold up.
Speaker 2And I went, yeah, so I read now.
Speaker 1So to read her complete journal, I actually count it as a new, kind of. And I just read the first volume. But I was again just enchanted. I some of my favorite aspects are when you can see direct sentences and phrases and whole stories from her book. Like she describes this scene that is she put directly into Rainbow Valley. Carl and the ghost on the hill. And oh my goodness. I love it.
SpeakerI was just enthralled. I was gonna say a lot of Rilla ended up first um being a part of the journals because of her very intense response to World War One. It's like really it was a place for her to practice ideas and to record. It just was a huge piece of her writing practice, that journal. The journal. Did you listen to the latest What Should I Read Next podcast? I just read it, the transcript yesterday. My gosh. And I've listened, I didn't realize she's have you listened to that Great Courses that she's Great Courses. No, I haven't. So it's a I think it's five I think it ends up being like two hours about about our friend Maud. Our friend Maud.
Speaker 1She she went by Maud, everyone losing Maud Mcun.
SpeakerAnd I believe if I as I was reading the transcript, it was the woman who was on Ann's show who did the the L.M Montgomery Great Courses class. That was cool.
Speaker 1That's worth it. Yes. What should I read next by Ann Bogle as a podcast about books and reading? And the latest guest was the latest guest as we're recording this today was the chair of L.M Montgomery Studies at Prince Edward Island University, right? I believe. So um I immediately I immediately thought of Caroline as I was listening and I was just drinking it in. She mentioned that there's some speculation that sometimes L.M. Montgomery went the other direction, that she put things in her journal that she had put into a book. She liked how it sounded so much.
SpeakerThat's very important.
Speaker 1I don't know. Yeah. I don't know.
SpeakerI believe it's there are certainly things in both places. So Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1I like to believe it went the other way, that she was working it out in the book. I mean, they're one of my favorite quotes by her. When I saw it in the journal, I was just flabbergasted. Do you know what I'm talking about? There's so much. There's so much in the world for us all in men and women. I don't know this one. Say it all again. Okay. If we only have the ears to the eyes to see it, to grasp it and the hands to take it in, something like that. I can't believe I can't call it memory. Which book is that in? That is in the first journal. Okay. And it's quoted in Anne of the Island when the girls are all talking about what they learned in college, and one of them says, Oh, I like what Professor So-and-so said. There's so much in the world for us all if we only have the eyes to see it and the hands to gather it to ourselves or whatever.
SpeakerI love it. And give me one second, I'm gonna bring something over. So this is a quote I keep in my office from the journals. And when I reread Emily, the Emily series last year, she attributes it to Emily. I love it. So this is what it says the work for which we are fitted, which we feel we are sent into the world to do, what a blessing it is, and what a fullness of joy it holds.
Speaker 1Carolyn, I can't believe you just quoted that. Look, it's on my desk with the same quote. That is so carrot top paper shop. Yes. Let's see, everyone has the most beautiful bookish illustrations and things. But oh my goodness, we both have the same that quote just she attributed that to Emily late years later.
SpeakerAnd I just I love that.
Speaker 1I love that so much. Another f another favorite thing for me about the journals, when I read L.M. Montgomery's journals, it's very strange. But I I feel like I'm reading what life could be if I make certain choices and and do so, and it's almost like a cautionary tale in some ways.
SpeakerIt is. Those are my exact words when I've talked about her. I love her to pieces. And there are pieces I see that I am prone toward that her choices, her life. Yeah. The roads I don't want to go down. And I don't know how specific we want to get here, but I I do want to share this that she dealt with depression. Her husband also had issues of mental illness. And we have some similarities in that we were both teachers, authors, we both have two sons, and we're I am a Presbyterian minister's wife, and she was a Presbyterian minister's wife. My goodness. And so some of the times I would just be so sad because it it was a was because of the time, I'm sure, but also because she was a very prideful woman and she would claim this of herself as well. But she needed support. She needed help, and there were so few people. I can think of two friends that she confided in as to what was really going on in her life and in her family and in her household. Freed? Yes. Freed and Nora Leffergy is Lefergy or something. Freed died in World War I. Yes. And then Nora, they really weren't in touch for a long time. She had been, I think she had been a teacher in Cavendish, which is the town that is where Maud grew up, which is like Avonlee. And I think she had either boarded with her family or had been nearby and they had been chums. And so there was a long time they weren't really much in touch. And then her friend Laura Pritchard, who she met the year that she went to visit her dad in Saskatchewan or live with her dad for a year, there was a long window of time where they weren't in touch either. And so she really, her journal was that friend. It was her solace. And it is a very, and she admits this too, it's probably a very skewed picture of her life because it becomes the place where she can just bemoan hardship. But yes. And there's a cautionary tale in in lighter ways too, like, you know, pride. And like there are times where like, well, I will never speak to that person again. And I'm thinking, okay.
Speaker 1There's the smallest things that I connect to. I don't have the big picture things like the pastor being married to a pastor and things like that. But in very little ways, I will see myself. She had a recurring dream that she discovered extra rooms in her house. And she described it like, you know, that dream where as if everyone has it. And I have that dream, but I didn't know other people had that dream.
SpeakerIt's wild. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1Have you ever had that dream? No. Yes. It's just, yeah, I just you fall asleep and you're you're in your house, and there's all these extra rooms that, oh yeah, I forgot we have this room. I can do this with that. And and I always wake up think hoping that it's God trying to tell me you have everything you need. You know, you have enough, and you just need to, you just need to make use of it, that kind of thing. But she had that dream. She also had a uh an intense fear of cancer. Yes.
SpeakerOh my gosh, Serenity. Yes, she did. And she was actually at the end of the first. Do you remember at the end of the? This is feels like so much insider talk here. I hope other people know me. She's interested in what we're saying. But the end of the first selected journal, I don't remember where it falls on the other two now, but where she is just, she calls it her white nights where she can't sleep. Yes. And she is taking care of her grandmother at this point, and she's left teaching, and she is just so distraught. And it's not until later we realize she thought she had found a lump in her breast. Absolutely. Thought she had cancer. Oh my goodness, I yes, that connection.
Speaker 1I related to that so much. And again, with the cautionary tale, I feel like so. I was that way as a child. Every little mole, I have cancer. I have cancer. And my dad would always have to tell me it's not a tumor, you know, which is from kindergarten cop. But anyway, and he would, you know, it's not cancer, it's not cancer. And then for me, one day it was, you know, I've experienced it. And it took that fear. It really, I it's I faced it, I got through it. And so now, I mean, I still have those little scares, don't we all? But there's this growth that I experienced because I discovered, oh, you can actually you can face that and you can survive. And she didn't get that. Like she only had the fear her whole life. And I think the same thing you do about the support. She had such a rich inner, inner, what do you call it, inner nature. She lived in her head. She had these whole worlds in there and a real understanding of the spiritual side of life and all that. And I feel like she, if we can believe her journals, she did not have enough people that she could converse about those, those things.
SpeakerYeah. And I think that was another thing people found surprising who knew her because she was jolly and she she loved life. She loved a good meal and she loved cats and trees and nature and flowers and eating caramels while she read books. But so I think people were you she was she was able to mask her distress pretty successfully. But I think that the longer that went on, the more that came apart. But yeah, I just it was it's there's a sadness. But it you know what it does? It just makes what she was able to produce that much richer. And you do see when you know the undergirding of her life, you can you can see the light and the dark in the stories. And you can.
Speaker 1That's true. Although one that was so eye-opening for me when I read her journals, the darkness that she experienced often, because it's exact opposite what I go to her books for. I literally enjoy life more. It is more vibrant, it is I am more at peace with life when I read her books. They just pure joy to me.
SpeakerI think they they did that for her, and she knew that she was she was offering that to readers too. And that was um, even in her darkest moments, I think she knew. I know she knew this is like this is what I was put in the world to do, and um, I can offer this, I can offer this to the world. Do you journal, Carolyn? I do. I have over the years I've I've done it differently, but the last 11 years now, and I know that because what I'm about to tell you, I have five-year journals. Have you seen those before? Yeah. So I'm on year 11, volume three. And that's been a really fun discipline just at the end of the day to write a few lines. And I really loved being able to look back because the things that feel so big, it's just a reminder you you make it through. And the things that weren't so big sometimes grow bigger. I mean, like you just you're able to zoom out and get some perspective. And just making simple notes too has made the my memory of the last 11 years, I feel are much more specific and vivid than the years where I've journaled off and on. So it's that's been interesting.
Speaker 1That's amazing, and it's blowing my mind because I'm the same. I used to journal when I felt like it, which was often, and it would just be feelings and emotions. In fact, I tweeted during COVID in 2020. As you said, L.M. Montgomery captured World War One so well. I mean, she journaled actually what was happening, and and then she was able to write Rilla Thingleside so vividly and accurately. And I wrote, if I ever have to write about COVID, I'll be able to tell you how I felt. That's pretty much it. This is how I felt feelings, feelings, feelings. But I'm the same as you. Now I do that as well still when I feel like pouring it out in handwriting, but I do a few lines every single night. Just what the day was. And today I used it. So last night I went to a movie. Project Hail Mary is so good. It is so good. It is so good. So I went last night and I was the only person in my theater. I'm in a small town and I was the only person in the room. And it's the third time that's happened to me at that theater. Which part of that is because I like to go to the movies when no one else gets to go to the movies during the workday or something if I can. But I was wondering which movies they were. And I went back to that journal and I was able to find each one.
Speaker 2Oh, I love that. I love that.
Speaker 1Yeah, last April, last November, and now here I went to movies all alone. Just me enjoying my popcorn in my movie. So, did you read the book too? I have not read the book, but I'm so going to now. I couldn't wait. I was definitely thinking I should read the book first, but I didn't want to miss it in theaters. So what?
SpeakerIt's in the theaters. Go do it. You did it.
Speaker 1Yeah.
SpeakerIt was nice. You didn't break any book rules.
Speaker 1I sat there thinking, I don't know how I can do anything with my life but tell stories because it's so meaningful. It is so meaningful. It teaches it just it's so moving. It's yeah, I love it. Um okay. I want two, two questions to finish out. I don't really want to finish, but we're going to. And I want to know what would you say is the, if you can, pinpoint, kind of the best intro to you for your books? Would there be like a read this one first? That book to start with. Yeah, if people want to read you.
SpeakerWell, one thing I haven't talked about, I'll just mention quickly, is my novels are both verse novels and prose novels. So if you're not familiar with verse novels, they're stories told through poetry. Some people like to debate if they are truly poetic. That's not for me to decide. So call it verse if you feel better with that. But so my very first novel was a verse novel. And I that's probably the best place to start. It's called Maybe. And it is a historical fiction set in 1870s, Kansas. And um, I I describe it as Laura Ingalls Wilder meets Hatchet, if you're familiar with those books. So it's a survival story about a girl who has uh her family is hard up for money, and so she's pulled out of school to be a maid for this young couple that is not doing so well, and she suddenly is left alone by herself, 15 miles from home, with no way to communicate to her family that that's the case, and she doesn't really know exactly how to get back. I can't believe you said that one.
Speaker 1That's the one I wanted you to say. I love Maybe. I highly recommend it. I think with the new little house on the prairie coming out on Netflix, people are gonna be in that zone. So do it, people. Maybe it's so good by Caroline Starrose. And then my last segment is It Worked for Me. And I like to just give the guest the last word. We've actually talked about a lot of things today, like this, but do you have something specific to add here? A good read, an activity, anything big or small that has worked for you, or maybe regularly does to help you find or feel more meaning in life.
SpeakerI'm gonna share a quote, and it I got it from Austin Cleon. So back to just making connections here. I can't. And it's uh it's a Henry David Thoreau quote. And I will say that I, when I was in school and we would read read bits and pieces of his work, I thought, this guy's really interesting. And then in my Dead Author Society book club, we read Walden maybe four years ago. And I thought, oh my gosh, I've always wanted to read this, but he's so kind of preachy and pretentious, and this is kind of dull. But he has said things over the years, well, years long ago, but things that have really struck me. And so I've realized, you know, I want to give him a second chance. And it was just a few weeks ago that Austin Cleon talked about Thoreau's journals, back to journals, being some of his best writing ever. So I've just checked that out of the library and it's in my pile of many things to read. But this quote, Austin shared, I think, two years ago, and I liked it so much I wrote it down and then I promptly forgot it, and then he shared it again last fall, and I thought, I so know what this is gonna be. Do you know what this is? I think I do. It's one of my quotes as well. Go for it.
Speaker 1What is it?
SpeakerI love it. Live in each season as it passes, breathe the air, drink the drink, taste the fruit, and resign yourself to the influence of the earth. And I love how this can be applied to life seasons, you know, seasons of the year, seasons of parenting, seasons of work. It's just live in the season as it passes. And because there's, you know, so many times I'm looking, what's next, or what do I not like about this moment in time. But here I am in this moment of time. How can I breathe the air and drink the drink and live in this moment? So that's just something I've been thinking a lot about. And it's something that I have tried to bring into this year with some intention.
Speaker 1Was that the same quote? No, but I think I was I think I was on the wrong Arthur anyway. We can't have all the same twin moments throughout. We've had so many this episode that we had to we had to fail somewhere. Thank you so much. This has been the most delightful conversation for me. And I appreciate you. I hope this is what I hope. You gave me the courage to do this podcast. I wanted to so much. And um, you agreed to be a guest, and I feel like you put me at ease. I'm hoping I can get in a rhythm now to where I can put my guests at ease, like you put me at ease. That's my goal.
SpeakerWell, you have made me very comfortable. You have such a great voice. I have always loved listening, or not listening, but reading your newsletters and your thoughts about work and life. And so this feels like just a really natural progression for you. So I can't wait to see where this goes.
Speaker 1I appreciate you so much. Thank you. Thank you very much for being here. My pleasure. My pleasure. Hey everyone. I just had to come back for a quick second to correct the quote by Lucy Mondmontgomery that I didn't quite get right during the episode because it matches so well what Caroline was saying about how we should read widely and be little human sponges. The quote is: there is so much in the world for us all if we only have the eyes to see it and the heart to love it, and the hand to gather it to ourselves. So much in men and women, so much in art and literature, so much to enjoy and delight in and be thankful for.