Everything You Knew About Rudolph Is Wrong (It’s Not Claymation!) | Original Geek | S1E17

You think you grew up watching claymation Christmas specials.
 You didn’t.

In this episode of Original Geek, we take a deep dive into the classic Rankin & Bass Christmas specials and break down one of the biggest holiday pop-culture myths of all time. From Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer and Frosty the Snowman to Santa Claus Is Comin’ to Town and The Year Without a Santa Claus, we unpack how these half-hour TV events shaped generations of kids.

We explain why Rankin & Bass animation wasn’t claymation at all — it was a stop-motion process called Animagic — and how many of these specials were produced in Japan on surprisingly small budgets. Despite those limitations, they created some of the most enduring holiday imagery and storytelling ever broadcast.

We also look at why nearly every Rankin & Bass story centers on misfits, redemption, and learning not to be a jerk — themes that hit harder than most modern holiday movies. Along the way, we revisit the characters that secretly terrified us as kids (yes, the Miser Brothers and the Winter Warlock absolutely count) and why those unsettling moments stuck with us.

More than nostalgia, this episode is about why shared, scheduled television mattered — planning your night around the TV, watching as a family, and having cultural touchstones everyone understood.

If you grew up planning your evening around network TV…
 If the Miser Brothers still live rent-free in your head…
 If your kids think this stuff is “old” and you’re ready to prove them wrong…

Welcome back to the basement.

Topics include: Rankin & Bass Christmas specials, Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, Animagic animation, stop-motion history, Gen X holiday nostalgia, classic television specials.

Welcome to Original Geek—the podcast for anyone who rolled their first d20 on shag carpet, waited hours for a comic book JPEG to load on dial-up, and wore the label “geek” back when it got you mocked, not monetized.

Hosted by stand-up comic Steve Scarfo and Forever DM Jeff Shaw, we dive deep into what it meant to be a geek in the '70s and '80s—and how that underground culture became the mainstream multiverse we live in today.

🎙️ Subscribe for weekly episodes on Dungeons & Dragons, Star Wars, comic book chaos, geek court debates, and critical hits from your childhood basement.

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Transcript

Steve Scarfo (00:00)
You've seen them, you just didn't know what that's what they were called.

if the Gen X people don't know the names Rankin and Bass, a little part of my soul just died.

Okay. Hey, welcome back to Original Geek. It's the all fandom podcast where we dig into sci-fi, fantasy, comics, and every pop culture obsession that built the multiverse we live in today. So whether you're Gen X millennial or just geek curious, grab your dice, grab your snacks. Welcome to the basement. I'm Steve Scarfo.

Jeff (00:48)
I'm Jeff Shaw and we'll be your glowing nose lighting your way for today's Foggy Flight. What is our topic today Steve?

Steve Scarfo (00:57)
Today Well, you know Jeff, it's December We're in the holiday season. So you know Our OG listeners out there what we felt was only the right thing to do was to talk to you guys about some Christmas specials But because we're OGs we're going all the way back to the 60s and we're going Rankin & Bass And if you don't know who we're talking about buckle up

Jeff (01:20)
The originals.

Steve Scarfo (01:23)
You've seen them, you just didn't know what that's what they were called.

Jeff (01:26)
That's true, you might not know the name Rankin & Bass but you should Gen X and beyond all of you.

Steve Scarfo (01:28)
These are.

Oh goodness,

if the Gen X people don't know the names Rankin and Bass, a little part of my soul just died.

That's all I'm saying. It's not the best. These are the movies you guys know. They are, well, let's give you the whole list. Let's give you the whole list. I have a list here. Starting with, this is one you guys should all know, because they play it every year, Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer, 1964. Santa Claus is Coming to Town in 1970.

Jeff (01:50)
Wow, complete?

Steve Scarfo (02:02)
The Year Without a Santa Claus in 1974, Rudolph's Shining New Year, still the weirdest one to me in 1976. And then now maybe these go a little bit more weird. Nestor, the Long-Aired Christmas Donkey in 77, Jack Frost in 79, and Life and Adventures of Santa Claus in 1985. And I have to admit, I didn't know that one existed.

Jeff (02:26)
Did I hear Frosty in there? I don't think I did.

Steve Scarfo (02:31)
Frosty the snowman

was animated, not Rankin, Bass stop motion. Well, we're talking, but it's not a Rankin, they made Rankin and Bass made Frosty.

Jeff (02:36)
It still, it still counts. It's still, they made it.

Yeah, they made Frosty the Snowman. It is, it was hand drawn, but the same vibe and the same concept. So like the template they created with Rudolph, which worked so well, but they, they weren't, they weren't necessarily thinking that this would be the legendary thing it has become. And that would be the longest running annual special ever. But, what

What happened is it I'm gonna say this like we knew I didn't know this so we did some research for this episode that they ⁓ The the animagic which was the name of their stop-motion ⁓ Animation was done in Japan

Steve Scarfo (03:30)
Not, not

claymation.

Jeff (03:33)
not claymation we have discovered. ⁓ Different in Steve, can talk more about what exactly makes it not claymation. But ⁓ the point I was trying to make is what I read is that they did have that Animagic done in Japan and also Frosty was done in Japan, but the studio that was doing the Animagic was too busy.

but they still wanted to have a new special, a new Christmas special out like every year in the 60s. And ⁓ they had this idea for Frosty, they got Jimmy Durante, because that was part of their concept is you got a celebrity narrator and that was part of the pitch and the draw. Jimmy Durante. So I'm going to hear that. And then you take a song that everyone knows like Frosty or Rudolph and you turn it into a 30 minute or longer special.

And what they were really, really good at, I thought, was taking the elements of that song and peppering it throughout the episode until at the very end, you've hit the last kind of plot that happens in these three minute Christmas songs. So I thought they do an amazing job. so I do consider this part of that milieu of Rankin and Bass Christmas specials, even though it looks different because it's 2D.

Animagic

Steve Scarfo (04:59)
Yeah, so I was focusing on the stop motion movies. And so while you were talking, I did some live Googling ⁓ and I I missed a couple of there's a couple of Frosty's Frosty the Snowman, then Frosty's Winter Wonderland. And then apparently the little drummer boy also a rankin and bass. ⁓ It wasn't on my original list, which is stop motion. So I'm a little bummed by my first search. So incomplete Googling ⁓ earlier in the day. So ⁓

Jeff (05:17)
yeah, yep.

Well, you know, in Little Drummer Boy, I did like it. And of course, like when we were kids, wanted to see that too. But it wasn't as much fun as the other ones. A little dark.

Steve Scarfo (05:39)
It was

certainly not a retelling of the Bible story, right? But it is more serious in nature. The Little Drummer Boy is like a, ⁓ hey, we're gonna teach you a Bible story ⁓ in the same way that we've been showing you regular, know, pop culture type Christmas stories, right? So ⁓ I didn't even put it in my brain.

as a Christmas special, even though it really is. The Little Drummer Boy, The Three Kings, like it's all part of the story. It depends on which lens you're looking through. Pop Santa culture kind of stuff, or more traditional religious side. ⁓

Jeff (06:11)
Of course.

Steve showing

his seriously lapped Catholic. He's like, laughs. Like the story of Christ, is that like a Christmas thing? I don't know.

Steve Scarfo (06:26)
I'm so lapsed. I might be I might be needing to get baptized again. I am

Is

Mary somebody important? Someone's gonna clip just that and I'm gonna burn in hell for that.

Jeff (06:38)
Ha ha ha

Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (06:43)
But yeah, so these are the movies we want to talk about. So.

Jeff (06:43)
All right, what is Animagic Because

I know that's, you looked it up.

Steve Scarfo (06:49)
Animagic is, it's pretty simple, it's very straightforward, it is their stop motion process, right? So it's what we call stop motion animation today. We've seen it in lots of ⁓ popular, more recent movies. We'll talk about some of those. ⁓ But like the Tim Burton, the Nightmare Before Christmas, Coraline, these movies, they use physical real models and they literally move them frame by frame. If you've never looked up stop motion, check it out. It is a very

Cool process, the box trolls, I think was another one more recently. But when you take a ⁓ model that's articulates at every joint and you can literally move it frame by frame. So I mean, literally if it's walking, you go click, click, click. Each one of those is a separate frame of someone walking and that's how they put these movies together. So.

I believe the mouths, that's why the mouths look weird. They were just flat pieces on the faces. So they would take, they would have all these dozens of little mouth pieces. would have to, so if someone was speaking, each little articulation was another fabric piece they had to take off and put on. ⁓

Jeff (07:59)
Haha

That's funny

because, yeah, so one of the things I looked, I saw in the research was that one of the criticisms, and I think it makes a little bit more sense that they're Japanese, but maybe it's just because of the limitations of what they could make the mouth do and the frames that they had and the budget that they had was that the, you know, it didn't quite match up all the time. You know, but it's like, I don't know.

Maybe the animators, didn't quite, like, they're going with the story, but I don't know if they.

I'll take it back.

Steve Scarfo (08:38)
Yeah, I know it just had,

okay. I didn't know where... So, yeah, they have this... It's almost...

Jeff (08:42)
Like I almost just I stupidly was thinking

about the dubbing like like the mouth doesn't quite

Steve Scarfo (08:48)
Yes, it is very funny if you think about it because

you could re-dub most of those cartoons and the mouth movements would probably fit because they're not truly lip sync accurate to, know, most of them are like open, closed, open, closed, open, closed. Very few have any articulation in between. ⁓ But.

Jeff (09:03)
They're not exact.

And so is claymation

supposed to be literally clay figurines instead of puppets? Is that the difference?

Steve Scarfo (09:21)
there were actual

clay figures that they used and that's the true claymation because again, ⁓ Jeff said it earlier, I didn't know this either. I always called them claymation but they're not. But I kinda knew they weren't truly clay but I guess I didn't realize that there really were some clay. ⁓ There was a guy named Will Vinton, he did shorts in the 70s and 80s. Now again, this is the same

This is the same research that left out Frosty, so I might be missing a few here. But then everything I see is from like 1985, the adventures of Mark Twain, which apparently Satan shows up in. I don't understand that at all, but maybe clay drove them a little crazy. But there were some that were truly clay, and apparently in 87 there was a claymation Christmas celebration, which I don't remember.

Jeff (10:18)
Okay.

Steve Scarfo (10:21)
Although I was graduating high school in 87, so I wasn't necessarily watching animated stuff that I had never seen before. I always still watch Ruto.

But this is what we want to talk to you about. These are the movies that we grew up. I still quote them. I still sing some of the songs. We did a festival of trees and there was a heat miser, cold miser tree. So these are characters that are still kicking and strong today.

Jeff (10:51)
Yeah, it's true. mean, you know, you go into Lowe's and you see the inflatables and often it is a Rankin and Bass inflatable. That's one of the options at least that you can get. These characters did survive decades, you know.

Steve Scarfo (11:09)
yeah.

At the gymnastics of Brentwood Common where Gianna does her gymnastics, every winter they, on their way into their parking lot, they have these huge wood cutouts. They're like almost life-size style and it's all the characters from Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer. So there's Yukon Cornelius, there's Rudolph, there's the Bumble, like all of these characters are in the driveway and it's, you know, they just put it up a couple weeks ago.

This is almost 50 years old now, 66, no 60. Right, am I doing that math right? 66, right, 64, no 61 years. So I mean, that's ridiculous, that's

Jeff (11:45)
Yeah, yeah, so 64. yeah, so 60, 61 years old. Yeah.

The, and I know we've said it before with all these shows that we watched as kids, we didn't know we were watching a repeat. I mean, obviously eventually I knew I was watching, but the first time I saw Rudolph, as far as I knew, that was the first time Rudolph was ever shown. But ⁓ one thing about these movies, these shows, these specials is, ⁓ and I know as a kid that I think I explained it in one of our horror, like I was easily scared.

⁓ so like there were scary parts, like the Bumble I thought was scary. The Heatmizer and the Mizer brothers like fighting. I was worried about our heroes traveling through when the, when the, the fireballs and the ice balls were going off at them. And, ⁓ and then in Santa Claus is coming to town, ⁓ the winter warlock I thought was a bit scary. ⁓ I wasn't scared and frosty. I didn't think.

Professor Hinkle was very scared.

Steve Scarfo (13:04)
No.

Jeff (13:06)
messy messy messy

Steve Scarfo (13:09)
No, but to your point about the carryover from like Frosted in the Stop Motion, ⁓ that character reminds me of one of the captain from the Burger Meister Meister Burgers. He was like seeing like the facial features, it like looked like they drew the guy for the guy who's the, what was the magician's name?

Jeff (13:28)
Yeah.

Well, and it

probably was. the, ⁓ cause I know even though it was animated in Japan, the, the drawings that we see in frosty, those were done by someone on Rankin & Basses team. And so they were, those were still like, could imagine sending the, if they could have done it, stop the animagic way, they would have sent that over. And yeah, it probably would have looked very similar.

Steve Scarfo (14:00)
It might have even been like, hey, we want you to make the stop motion. Here's the concept image. And then they said, nah, just animate it. And it was the guy.

Jeff (14:06)
Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (14:08)
⁓ Yeah, I looked forward to those and I agree I was the same way I always thought hey, these are new like this it you know Let's see Rudolph came out in 64 or five years before I was born So by the time I saw it and remembered it I was maybe five or six You know if I'm lucky that my memory goes back that far ⁓

So these were 10, 12 years old by the time I remember seeing them. because there was no, you know, TV guide, you know, was the only way you would know or people who were, you know, I don't think my parents ever talked to me about, oh yeah, that's the classic Christmas. It was just, oh, we're gonna watch Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, because it's on, you know, Friday night at eight, because it was prime time viewing.

Jeff (14:57)
Yeah,

well, and that's the thing. it's something ⁓ I'll mention a version of in the, ⁓ our message to the new generation is, or rant, is that was, that's it, like Friday at eight. And if you don't see it, you don't see Rudolph this year. Like it showed once and it was Friday at eight.

And that's it. There was no VCR. You didn't record it. That wasn't an option. No TiVo. This was it. You had your shot or you're going to miss it.

Steve Scarfo (15:37)
You realize

that for most people who are maybe not quite our target, but even TiVo is old. You're talking about TiVo's cutting edge. It's old now too. ⁓ Do you know what movie, it just popped into my head while we were talking about it. It's not a Christmas movie ⁓ and it's not even animated at all, it used to come on at Christmas every year and I loved it was Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

Jeff (15:42)
Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (16:05)
⁓ I just saw Dick Van Dyke just turned 100 years old. So that's in my brain too. So I don't want to dig too far because it's off topic. But that was another movie that we saw. But again, it was every year at Christmas. If you didn't see it when it was on, maybe it was I want to say it was like Christmas Eve. It was like always on the same night every year for like I remember five or six years. It was if you missed it that night, then you didn't get to see it because it wasn't on again until next year.

Jeff (16:05)
Hmm.

Really?

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. So and that was true for like all of these, all of these specials where it was like the family would plan on staying in and this way we're all going to watch the other only three stations, right? ABC, NBC, CBS. So, you know, there's that. But you probably like, like you didn't go to the movies that night. You didn't do something else. You

you planned and sat in and didn't play a game. watched the Rudolph special or Frosty or whatever. Yeah. ⁓

Steve Scarfo (17:09)
And they often would do

like a whole night. It would be like from eight to 10, they'd do four of them back to back.

Jeff (17:14)
So for you, you might actually have watched the premiere of The Year Without a Santa Claus, 1974.

Steve Scarfo (17:24)
I mean, it's possible. It's possible. I would have been six. No, five. I would have been five. So I could have, I'm gonna say I did. I don't know. That could be a lie for everyone listening. I don't know. ⁓ Year Without a Santa Clause, still one of my favorites ⁓ of all times. I love the Miser Brothers. Their songs are my favorite. I will say.

Jeff (17:26)
Five.

Ha ha ha.

Steve Scarfo (17:52)
the dances in those movies where they're singing the, Mr. Heat, my, their part is fun, the main, but it's the creepy little minions that they have that kind of look like them, but they're smaller. Those always sort of creeped me out as a kid, but I loved them anyway.

Jeff (18:06)
Yes.

Steve Scarfo (18:08)
but my favorite and I'm gonna, I'll wait for critical hits. I got one for you. It's gonna be my critical hit. So if you're not, just listen and keep listening.

Jeff (18:14)
Oh, okay. Well, yeah, but it'd it's a good,

but it's good to point this out because these were, most of these movies were based or specials were based on a famous song. And, but what was great about these is that the original songs that they created for them and every one of these, there's just, they're bangers. They're awesome.

⁓ Silver and Gold in Rudolph is a great song. ⁓ And I know we're talking about some of them in our critical hits, but like, man, ⁓ I don't want to use the one from the critical hit, but yeah, all right, we'll have to save it for our critical hits. Because I agree, like the soundtracks, the original songs that they added to these are part of...

Steve Scarfo (18:43)
their Christmas classic.

Jeff (19:11)
the critical hit and part of their success that they had great songwriting and they actually approached it very much like a Broadway show. So at the top of the and when you see a Broadway musical it starts with a suite which plays all of the songs that you're going to hear in the musical and they do the same thing in these Christmas specials. They approached it with that kind of same level of artistry where they ⁓ you when you watch it next time.

⁓ this season. ⁓ Pay attention that they're actually at the beginning they're playing a suite, a version of all of their songs that are in the special.

Steve Scarfo (19:53)
when they're doing the opening credits. that's so cool. Different stuff.

Jeff (19:55)
Yeah, it's like switching between like little clips

of all the different songs.

Steve Scarfo (20:01)
So that's very cool, I did not know that. I did just look something up because I sort of made the same assumption. I was like, let me make sure that the songs were there before the shows. But some of these songs go way before the show. Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, for instance, the character was in 1939. Gene Autry sang the song in 1949. So it was still 15 years later before they made the animated or the

the Animagic version of Rudolph that we all know and love today. But I agree, they took these songs that were popular and still get airplayed today every year. And they fit a story that lasted a half an hour. And it's a TV half hour, so 22 minutes or whatever. Same thing with the Grinch.

Jeff (20:53)
Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (20:55)
Again, not a Rankin-Bass, but an animated, but you know, the Grinch is a book. It's a Dr. Seuss book. What are those, like 15 pages, 20 pages long? And they made this whole story behind who he is and all that stuff. And of course, now the Grinch has had like five iterations, but.

Jeff (21:08)
Right.

Yes, but that's that

same concept that they did in Rudolph, which is you take this really short three minute plot and then you expand it and that it worked really well. ⁓ Yeah, so the Year Without a Santa Claus, I just did a quick search because I was pretty sure that was the only one that the song was not ⁓ what they like. They weren't basing that one on a song. They were just trying to come up with an original concept.

and it has some great songs in it, but it doesn't have, that's not an original, they created, all the songs in that one are original.

Steve Scarfo (21:49)
Yeah,

but that one, yeah, and that makes sense. I guess I didn't, I would assumed it when it was in there. It would have been before, but it makes sense because there's no, there's no one theme. Frosty the Snowman is the song Frosty the Snowman, right? Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer is Rudolph. There's no Santa Claus is coming to town. So the main song though, bet, you better watch out, you better not cry. That came, they made that for the movie.

Jeff (22:04)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (22:19)
or for the

Jeff (22:21)
⁓ no, that's in Santa Claus is Coming to Town. that was before that. But I think The Year Without a Santa Claus just has all original music.

Steve Scarfo (22:29)
that's right, that's not Year Without a Santa Claus.

I think Year Without a Santa Claus too they do a version of Blue Christmas, which was a...

Jeff (22:40)
⁓ you're right. You're right.

Steve Scarfo (22:42)
Blue Christmas, but that wasn't the theme though. Blue

Christmas was ⁓ an Elvis hit, but now I don't know if Elvis did it before or after. Did Elvis record it after it became popular with Year Without a Santa Claus?

Jeff (22:48)
You're absolutely right. Yep. Okay.

point. Blue Christmas. Alright.

Steve Scarfo (23:03)
But again,

but it's not like Rudolph, it's not like Blue Christmas wasn't the name of the show. All right, I don't know if you're looking it up right now, but I'm gonna, you guys stand by while we Google.

Jeff (23:08)
Yeah.

Ha

What, when blue Christmas came out?

Steve Scarfo (23:16)
Yeah, it was blue Christmas before the year without Santa Claus.

Jeff (23:21)
I'm sure, because it was Elvis, that kind of old sound that he had, not his 1974 sound.

Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (23:33)
⁓ yeah, Elvis did it in 57. This is why I don't

know. So maybe they were, it does play a key role in the movie, but it's not the movie. So.

Jeff (23:43)
Yeah.

Yeah, but I like

that we don't have to do a canon correction. You corrected me right away. I appreciate that.

Steve Scarfo (23:49)
Well,

it wasn't intentional. It was like, wait, I didn't catch that.

Jeff (23:54)
But as much as I appreciate you helping me, I think it's time to take you to court. ⁓ okay.

Steve Scarfo (24:00)
No, no, hold on, before you go, before you go, I

wanna set the table. I wanna dish it out, I wanna draw people in. I want you guys to know that of all these movies, because there's a lot of things that we could do, we have picked one. And one topic within the one movie. Because we.

Jeff (24:05)
Ooh, okay.

Okay, all right, all right.

Steve Scarfo (24:24)
It's a little controversial. It's gonna get some people annoyed, I think. But I think ⁓ we're gonna have to talk a little bit about Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer and how Santa was kind of a jerk.

Jeff (24:51)
Yeah. So, the core argument, Santa is a selfish prejudice, utilitarian leader who only accepts Rudolph's differences when it benefits him. And I am making the case that he is indeed a bit of a jerk in Rudolph the red nose reindeer. So, ⁓ I am, I am. ⁓

Steve Scarfo (25:14)
you telling me you're calling Santa a jerk?

Jeff (25:19)
Now, he is hypercritical of Donner for hiding Rudolph's nose, but then equally critical of Rudolph's nose. He's disdainful and critical of Hermi the elf's ambition to be a dentist and reinforces his kind of judgmental culture, elf culture. He displays a shocking lack of care for the island of Misfit toys.

He just doesn't give.

Steve Scarfo (25:51)
I don't know if you want to say that about Santa. Santa don't GAF.

Jeff (25:52)
about them and

he does not care. However, as soon as Rudolph's nose can come in handy. ⁓ yeah, we can go there. he's also like the elf singing the choir needs work. Yes. Okay. Better luck next time. And like the cooking.

His wife's cooking. He's just critical there. He's just not a likable Santa in this version.

Steve Scarfo (26:34)
this in this see I I see it a little differently because all of those things were there but you're forgetting about the stress and the pressure of being Santa right before Christmas Eve right he's just stressed out man he's a guy who's like I got a lot of stuff to do I got a new reindeer to train one of them has this weird glowing nose thing going on I don't understand what it is

Santa maybe was a little ⁓ short with his responses because he just was too stressed out. He doesn't stay that way. He evolves, which is one of my favorite things, character arcs. At the end, he comes back and he goes, I realize I was wrong. And he welcomes Rudolph in. So you look at it like, you go, no, he's only doing it because he needs him. And I'm like, no, he learned.

His heart grew, he's like the Grinch. His heart grew. And he's like, no, I get it now. I'm sorry, I was being a jerk. I don't think he says he was a jerk, but he pretty much says that. And he says, all right, now, ⁓ I think, you know, he finally brings everybody together and says, it's okay, it's okay.

Jeff (27:33)
Ha ha ha! ⁓

Steve Scarfo (27:53)
I don't know what you guys think. So.

Jeff (27:54)
So

I know I usually win these, but I really appreciated the Grinch reference and the growth, the character growth. So it does add a dynamic to the special that wouldn't have existed if he was just a nice guy. You're right. That wouldn't work. Plus one thing I discovered that kind of goes to your point is the fans. Apparently the first year it came out,

We're like, what happened to the misfit toys? They're like, when you get back, tell Santa. And the ending is them flying off successfully to deliver the toys. And then it was the version we see now has him going to the island, picking them up and then dropping the ⁓ toys off. So apparently, I...

had they not changed that ending and had he gone to the land of the Misfit Toys and picked them up, ⁓ I could say that I'd still win this argument. But he wasn't self-centered in the end. He did listen, not only to Rudolph, but also to the plight of those Misfit Toys.

Steve Scarfo (29:16)
Alright, I get to win one.

Jeff (29:17)
So

you, I will concede.

Steve Scarfo (29:19)
I will say I did not know that they changed the ending. That's pretty funny that they just forgot about, know, and I'm sure in the animation journey, they were just like, All right, well, that part of the story is over. Let's just show the happy ending. And then everyone else went, Hey, what's up, dude? You left them all behind. ⁓

Jeff (29:33)
Yeah.

Well, that's that's that's the have you heard of the term of McGuffin I Had not I didn't know what it was but ⁓ I You know At AMC theaters the bar inside it's called McGuffin's and like why is that? So my wife Kristen looked it up when we went to see a movie there and it's this plot device

Steve Scarfo (29:43)
Yes.

Jeff (30:02)
that's meaningless. So it just provides some like some drive for the character, but ultimately it doesn't matter. And I think initially the island of misfit toys was to been a MacGuffin. Like, yeah, you know, we need this because they're misfits, but then who cares about them? No one cares. no, the fans spoke. They cared. They wanted those toys taken care of.

Steve Scarfo (30:27)
So you know what's funny? I had heard that the only slight difference in the definition of the idea of what a MacGuffin is, is the MacGuffin is any plot device that moves the plot forward, and it's always some sort of a thing. Like it's a thing you gotta go do. It could be a tangible thing. Like, you know, you're in a, I don't know.

action adventure movie and you gotta go here and get the file. That file is a MacGuffin, it could be whatever, but it does drive that plot forward. ⁓ It's not the thing. Yeah, ultimately it's just a piece of the puzzle. It's not the thing. ⁓ Well, you know, but that's... ⁓

Jeff (30:59)
Right.

But that ultimately that thing doesn't matter. Like it could be anything. So yeah, nice.

Steve Scarfo (31:13)
That's all right. I think we have to give Santa a break. I am glad that they changed the ending because it would have made my argument crap. ⁓ Yeah.

Jeff (31:16)
Yeah.

I think this is a perfect transition to what our basement treasures are.

Steve Scarfo (31:36)
So before you start, I do think it's funny. You guys will see in a minute. And if you're not watching, catch us on YouTube, Original Geek Podcast, YouTube channel, like, subscribe, do all this stuff. We need you guys. We talked a little bit, we always do like a pre-show. And so we talk about what we're doing. And it's kind of funny because we both pick kind of the same stuff. So go ahead.

Jeff (31:56)
Yes.

Yeah. So Hallmark, it's got to be at least a decade ago, had these Rudolph ⁓ ornaments. And what I love is how complete it was. Like it has all the misfit toys. didn't, I don't have them all to display. This is a podcast, which isn't the best medium for that. But if you are, I know we also have YouTube. So if you're on YouTube, you're going to get all this, but I didn't want to rip the, take them all off my tree. So I was being lazy. So how, trust me.

Steve Scarfo (32:15)
No, for those of you just listening, tell them which one it is.

No, no, no, but for the people

who don't see it, tell them which one you're holding.

Jeff (32:27)
I

know. right. So I'm holding the elephant, the polka dotted elephant from the island of misfit toys. I also have the Charlie in a box. Charlie in a box. And it also comes with the train with the square wheels and the doll Sally, like who is in a misfit. Like there's nothing wrong with this doll, but there she is. So and.

Steve Scarfo (32:54)
It

was the 60s.

Jeff (32:54)
But also it has

the main characters got Yukon Cornelius, I've got Clarice and Rudolph and Santa and Sam the snowman. It's awesome. They're awesome. And they have that very, like what I like about is how true they are. Those of you who can, who are watching this, like, like they have that same kind of tactile feel and look of those animagic characters.

Steve Scarfo (33:00)
nothing.

Jeff (33:24)
So.

Steve Scarfo (33:24)
Yeah, that

was a Yukon Cornelius that Jeff was just holding up. And it's, like that one a lot.

Jeff (33:27)
Yeah, so big, ⁓

big fan of those Rudolph figurines. ⁓ At least a decade old, so I think, you know, it's kind of brushing it off.

Steve Scarfo (33:38)
So this is not a decade old, but from the same movie. ⁓ Because Bumble's Bounce! I got a Bumble. But this is one we just got not that long ago, and it's actually the Bumble with a Santa hat on, kind of a red and white stripes and hat and red ⁓ suspender pants. He's doing a reverse Donald Duck. He has just pants, no shirt. I don't know why the pants. Maybe to make him look more like Santa. But it's the Bumble.

⁓ As terrifying as he is at the beginning of that movie or show ⁓ by the end he's just like an adorable teddy bear and In this my daughter was quick to point out because she's like what is the bumble? Mike he's the big terrifying guy with all the teeth and I showed her and she goes wait Where's the teeth? So if you're watching this is the toothless version after her me gets his hands on him

Jeff (34:18)
Yeah, and-

yeah, because the nice one.

Yeah, he just had some bad teeth, put him in a bad mood. So yeah, I think that's funny because that is one of the few characters that was not part of this collection that I got there. I don't have a bumble. So no, don't think so. I'll double check, but I don't think it came with the collection.

Steve Scarfo (34:36)
But it's

You don't have a bumble?

that's too bad. He's one of my favorites.

Jeff (35:01)
I think

because they're trying to do it to scale and I mean that bumblebee too big.

Steve Scarfo (35:04)
The bumble would have been huge

But ⁓ yeah, it's just I think it's funny that we both chose characters that we happen to still have and again We talked about it before This is what makes these movies and shows so cool to me. I think to you too. Is that they're still so Relevant, right? This is not a story that got so old maybe

Jeff (35:27)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Scarfo (35:31)
Santa being a little too hard on people at the beginning is tougher for, you know, he's no Tim Allen doing a movie here. But it's a story of a journey that all of these people, all of these characters go on some journey and end up together at Christmas. And it's a story that people still watch. It's cool that we both chose ones from the same movie. Of all the stuff we've talked about we like, it happened to be both from Rudolph.

Jeff (36:01)
That's awesome. Well, and I, you know, what I like about what you said and also your point that you made in the geek court is that it's a redemption. Like all of these are redemption stories. So that like the, the, you know, a lot of these are protagonists are like kind of outcasts or misfits or, know, they just don't fit in or they're, they're trying to make their way and figure things out and they do eventually. But then all of the bad guys.

get their redemptions too, generally, except for the Burger Meister. ⁓ But nothing bad happens to them, they just kind of fall out of favor. They're like, these guys are dumb. But, you know, ⁓ the Winter Warlock and the Miser Brothers and ⁓ the Bumble, like they all get their redemption, so, yeah.

Steve Scarfo (36:35)
No, but he gets his comeuppance.

Even the Bumble.

Yeah, I could talk forever. ⁓ But it's time to talk about how things have changed a little bit ⁓ and how our Christmas movies have come through.

Jeff (37:12)
All right. And I...

Steve Scarfo (37:13)
So you started

with it earlier that these were made in China, not China, Japan, ⁓ because it was cheaper.

Jeff (37:16)
Yeah, I did.

Steve Scarfo (37:22)
Right? These started with like, can't, we know what we want to do, but it's too expensive to do here. So they sent the idea to Japan where they would do it cheaper. Took forever.

Jeff (37:33)
Well, you know, and I think about ⁓ those Gods, when we talked about Godzilla and like the attention to detail, like, and I know we talked about, well, it's kind of cheesy, but when you think about it, like they, the attention to detail, detail they did with their buildings and making, they did the best they could with the tools that they had. And I think that that artistry must have somewhat influenced the, the animagic.

Steve Scarfo (37:33)
to.

Jeff (38:03)
And ⁓ I know that they, one aspect of this animagic that makes it look rough is so charming. Like there's a slight stilt between the movements, right? It's not smooth. Like it's the amount of frames per movement. And ⁓ for economy's sake, they had less, you know, frames per movement.

Or more. don't know what would make it smoother.

Steve Scarfo (38:35)
No, like when they're jumping

it's like tee tee like they do one kick, but they travel

Jeff (38:39)
Yeah.

Yeah. And I, ⁓ as we look, cause part of our evolution is we talk about impact and, ⁓ one movie that was impacted by this was, ⁓ elf, with, Will Ferrell, ⁓ directed by John and created by John Favreau and he told his animators and they were not happy. They needed an

You know, he, he, he can explain the actual like number. No, has to be this many frames. Like it's not gonna, we're gonna, that's not, that's not smooth. Exactly. It needs to look like rank and embass. I want this environment not to look like the North, a real North pole. It needs to look like rank and embass North pole. This needs to look like that. That's what that was influenced by. That's what this needs to be.

Steve Scarfo (39:34)
even down to the costumes that the live action actors were wearing was very reminiscent of the elves in Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer. And then, you know, we talked about it a little bit too, because it wasn't just a stop motion, those are the favorites, those are the primaries we're talking about, but then there were like The Grinch, which came out two years after the year, I mean the...

Jeff (39:39)
yeah, that's true.

Yeah, that's so true.

Steve Scarfo (40:04)
Rudolph, Red Nosed Reindeer, but that was traditional animation. And I'm sure they were trying to push it out faster because I don't know what the timelines truly were on some of these, but months to create traditional animation.

Jeff (40:19)
yeah, yeah. I know another, ⁓ it's not Animagic, because it was much smoother, Nightmare Before Christmas. I know it's often credited to Tim Burton, he produced it, but he didn't write it. Yeah, he wasn't the creator, wasn't a supporter of it. And now, I'll look it up, who it is in a moment, but.

Steve Scarfo (40:39)
He didn't actually do the,

Jeff (40:48)
He, you they clearly were also, and you know, also influenced by that rank and embass, not to, you know, because of the, the texture of it is, you know, because it looked 3D, right? I mean, I guess it was, right? It was filmed in, well, three dimensions, not in the two dimensions of a traditional animated piece. And so it was very influential.

with that, I'll look it up, so.

Steve Scarfo (41:21)
Yeah, yeah, 18 months to produce Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer. 18 months to do the stop motion. So just to give you an idea, know, especially in this age of AI where you can tell it to make a picture of a Rudolph and then animate it in 30 seconds, you can get an eight to 10 second clip. That'll look pretty decent. I haven't played with any of them that actually in done a Rankin-Bass mimic, but I'm sure you could even make it look like that.

Jeff (41:27)
really?

Steve Scarfo (41:50)
that took them 18 months because they were physically doing it. And I agree, the stuff with the Nightmare Before Christmas and even like the box trolls, there was another one about a monster house, I think it was called Stop Motion. ⁓ Obviously, standing on the backs of giants, these guys who took the initial leap into this stuff, but they had models and I mean, literal models of these creatures that they could, instead of having one with a felt mouth that they had to play with, you know,

They literally had like 10 or 12 different heads that they could take off and put on. It's like anything else. They started with one type of, one way of doing it, and then they evolved, quite literally, they evolved and they iterated into what they can do today. The kind of work, I couldn't do it. When I was a kid,

one point I was like, oh, it'd be cool. I don't know if you ever did this. I used to do the flip book art where you would draw a little stick figure on a page and every page and at the end you would flip it and he would run across the page. I used to love the three second clip but I could never do anything longer. I guess that was pre-animation too. That was sort of an animation trick. That's how each cell was built for old school traditional animation.

Jeff (42:50)
yeah.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (43:13)
So I

give these guys such respect for in the 60s when technology was not techno, if you want to put it that way, that they were able to pull off to your point, like real, not realistic, but believable environments. So not just Rudolph, they had to put him in a field of snow. They had to put the bumble in a cave. Like it was, it was fantastic.

Jeff (43:39)
Well, and the staying power of these specials. mean, Rudolph, and I'm not trying to say that even though, so Rudolph was the first, so therefore it's the longest running annual special. But I think of some good, like I've seen other good Christmas specials that don't have the same power. And even if it's got a big name and,

Maybe someone will disagree, but I've enjoyed the Toy Story Christmas special, but I don't feel like I need to see it every year. enjoyed... There was one with like... Oh man. It was like Ronnie the Reindeer or something like that. Do you remember this? It had some famous voice actors in it too. I can look it up, but...

Steve Scarfo (44:17)
Uh-huh.

I don't.

Jeff (44:37)
Like it was like more like, okay, that was a fun thing to watch. It was original and fun. And like, you don't even know what I'm talking about. That's what I mean. Is it that like, no one has successfully made things with that much lasting impact. Now we've had movies, Christmas movies that do. We just listed some of them. Elf, Nightmare Before Christmas. where, you know, I love Polar Express. I know some people are critical of some of the

Steve Scarfo (44:46)
Now.

Home Alone.

Jeff (45:06)
human animation in that, but actually I love that movie and want to watch that one every year. So there are movies that I still want to watch, but there's not that many just animated specials like that.

Steve Scarfo (45:08)
Yeah, the CGI and that was...

No, I feel like, especially like with the Toy Story ones and ones that are derived from other properties, other movies, it feels obligatory. Like, ⁓ yeah, so all right, they had a great movie, so they're gonna make a Christmas special because they felt like they had to have a Christmas property. You know what mean? Toy Story didn't wanna be left out, but the charm of Toy Story wasn't about Christmas. You know, I think the thing about these movies...

To me anyway, that really resonates is these are Christmas stories. Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer didn't live in Chicago for the first 12 years of his life and end up at the North Pole because of some wish he made. Like he's Santa's reindeer. You know what I mean? Frosty is a snowman who could only live in the winter. You know, maybe not quite as much as the Christmas theme, but it-

Jeff (46:05)
Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (46:16)
When Toy Story makes a Christmas special, it's not really about Christmas, it's about Toy Story and Christmas. Do you know what mean? It's not Christmas with toys, which was the island of Misfit Toys. ⁓ Which is funny, my kids watch this movie, a million times it's called Ugly Dolls, and it reminds me a lot now that we're talking about it. ⁓ It's very much a parallel to the island of Misfit Toys. They have a whole place they call Uglyville where all the ugly dolls go. ⁓

It's their Island of Misfit toys. I don't know how they didn't make a reference in there, but they didn't. And then we have the Charlie Brown Christmas, same kind of thing. I think that's one, but like to your point, these are all, Charlie Brown Christmas I think is maybe one, maybe because it came out so long ago, was 65, so it was right there. ⁓ Maybe because that one was around the same time, because that's another one that it was the Peanuts had a Christmas special. But to me it's just.

Jeff (47:13)
Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (47:14)
was always in that list of, it's Friday night on December 18th, we're gonna watch these five Christmas specials. It was always there.

Jeff (47:22)
yeah,

the peanuts I think absolutely all of their holiday specials are ⁓ just as enduring. They just happen to make one, their first one with the Christmas special a year after Rudolph. So it doesn't get the credit. But I honestly think if that had been the first one, that would have had been the longest running. ⁓ But I'm so glad we got Rudolph because the animation, the animagic.

is really, really cool. And I'm glad that we got other movies like Nightmare Before Christmas and Elf, you know, largely because of it.

Steve Scarfo (47:50)
You

I will say, just so we get a jump over to our message, but ⁓ with the Peanuts, they were a property without the specials, but I think they were only ever on TV for their holiday specials. There was the Great Pumpkin Charlie Brown. I think they had a few other, ⁓ but it wasn't like it was a TV show or a movie. They were a cartoon, they were a strip, you know.

cartoon strip in the papers and they had a few specials that were done. ⁓ But that's cool. But as we are rolling through this, we still have to get to a couple of different segments before we go. we're ⁓ gonna tell you why you guys should pay attention.

Jeff (48:37)
Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (48:55)
We both are like, okay, you go.

Jeff (48:55)
All right. Okay,

I'll go, I'll go. So what I wanna say is even though these are enduring and impactful, we've been talking about that, that they're played every year. I still know some people that they haven't made it a part of their family tradition. And I think part of it is because you can watch it at any time.

So even though they try to make it a big deal, hey, Rudolph's gonna be on CBS or NBC this Friday, you know, hey, watch it. ⁓ People, well, that's just not the way we view things anymore. And then you're just gonna watch it with a bunch of ads and then maybe life just gets busy and then you don't make the time. So I'm encouraging people to make that time, watch these specials, make that a part of your tradition. ⁓

And you'll get, think, the messages here are so great. To not be bullies, the redemption stories. I think these are great, enduring stories that we should maintain and continue.

Steve Scarfo (50:01)
Forgiveness, yeah.

Yeah, now I'm gonna stick at the same idea for this discount them because they're old. I know a lot of younger folks will go, Ma, that's so old. You know what I mean? My kids make fun of me all the time. I'm in my 50s, but to them, I might as well be a thousand, right? So.

I know we got millennials and zinnias out there who are in their 20s and 30s who are like, those are still crap. I'd rather just watch what a

If you go on Netflix or whatever streaming system and what you have is the beauty we didn't have, which is we had to wait till December 18th, Friday at 8 p.m. on CBS, or we didn't see it. You can watch it 19 times in a season if you really wanted to. And by God, they're probably 22 to 30, maybe if, I think they were all half hour specials, so they're like 22 minutes to watch, right? You could watch one on a lunch break. ⁓

But get your kids together. It's almost like reading your kids towards the night before Christmas. These are things, to Jeff's point, they have a great story, they have great characters, and they have good moral outcomes. Everybody is a better character by the end of these things, ⁓ in almost every case. Even the burgermeister, they just sort of let him go off.

Jeff (51:20)
So actually Rudolph is 55 minutes. A couple of them were on the longer side, yeah, are more like Frosty's like 22 and then you have the ads to make it 30. Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (51:25)
They were long.

Yeah,

yeah, I know some of them were an hour and some of them were a half. I couldn't remember which ones were which, but yeah, so at best you're killing 55 minutes. Most of you watch Stranger Things twice already. You can watch freakin' Rudolph, Red Nose Reindeer.

Jeff (51:34)
Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (51:48)
All right, we gotta talk about my favorite thing

All right, as I knew we would because this is such a fun topic, ⁓ we're running a little long in the tooth. So I'm gonna just give you my critical hit ⁓ right off the top. My favorite part of all of these ⁓ Rankin' Bass, specifically the Rankin' Bass, the stop motion, Animagic, not claymation shows, is the Winter Warlock. ⁓ He was this big, scary guy.

but he was stuck in an iceberg and because he was so mean and cruel, he was like, he couldn't even move. And then Santa, Chris Kringle gives him a toy, his first present ever, and his heart melts and he becomes this old sort of normal looking wizard dude who's got a regular body. And from that point forward, everybody calls him the Warlock or Mr. Warlock and he'll go, winter, please.

Like he's saying just use my first name and my first name is winter, which I always get a kid It just tickles me, but I love the song put one foot in front of the other I think it's the best song. I don't know what it is ⁓ If you followed me at all or know me I had an accident a few years ago where both my legs were in braces for like two months I had a lot of rehab to do and I actually made a video using that song

Jeff (52:59)
Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (53:16)
⁓ As one of my goofy rehab videos did you just got to put one foot in front of the other? ⁓ So that's my hit. I love it

Jeff (53:23)
Yeah, and what a great message. You know, just put one foot in front of the other. Yeah, just take these little steps for the big change. That's good. All right. ⁓ I'm going right to epic fail from the same special. The ⁓ Santa Claus is coming to town. So, which tells the history of Santa and some of its traditions. And so one tradition that we all remember, we all know is that when you

Steve Scarfo (53:31)
Keep moving forward.

Jeff (53:52)
You want something from Santa, you can go and sit on his lap and tell him what you want. Okay, well that's fine. That's a fine tradition. For some reason, in this special, Santa had an extra little thing he was asking for, a kiss. So he has a song, ⁓ be prepared to pay, be prepared to pay extortion. you sit on my lap.

Steve Scarfo (54:18)
You

Jeff (54:21)
Today a kiss a toy is the price you pay ⁓ yeah, sit on my lap Give me a kiss and if you don't I am NOT giving you anything You gotta give me that kiss

Steve Scarfo (54:29)
If you guys could see the faces that Jeff is making.

Jeff (54:36)
Kiss me for that toy. So the Meister Burger entirely right for the wrong reasons to stop this guy. Like, whoa, man, the kiss? Really? Can we just get our toy without the kiss?

Steve Scarfo (54:40)
Seven bad songs just popped into my head.

You told me you were gonna talk about this and it's

freaking cracks me up Listen to the song

Jeff (55:00)
All right, so, don't be stingy

is one of his lines. Come on, don't be stingy. me that kiss Okay.

Steve Scarfo (55:12)
So listen,

Jeff (55:15)
That's the epic fail.

Steve Scarfo (55:17)
That

is an epic fail, 100%. I just, I don't know why, I never heard it that way. But it, yeah.

Jeff (55:28)
That's well, because you watch this with a certain innocence and the

thing is he didn't mean it that way. So like, I totally understand that. And, and like even in Rudolph, like we're reading into things. So I think he's like, something like someone's gonna shine up my bells to fly or something like that. Gonna make my bells shiny, shine up them bells. So. ⁓

Steve Scarfo (55:37)
Yeah, yeah, it doesn't hold up. That's what it is. It's it's 2025

That was definitely

the best.

Jeff (55:57)
So

like we're adults with juvenile humor and so we hear it differently. But I mean, even though, even though I am hearing it differently, I still think it's a fact.

Steve Scarfo (56:11)
Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. You guys gotta tell us if you agree because ⁓ the one foot in front of the other, awesome. Come sit on my lap. You have to give me a kiss, But ⁓ tell us your thoughts. ⁓ Send us an email, originalgeekpodcast.gmail.com. Jump on any of our socials at originalgeekpodcast.

We're on Buzzsprout, where is where we're hosted, but you can check us out on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Podcast Addict, any other places you guys get us. And of course on YouTube, if you want to get the cool visuals of Jeff and I staring at each other and being silly. tell us what you think. Do you love the Rankin and Bass Are they creepy as hell? Was Santa being a jerk? And maybe in the year without a Santa Claus? Not year without a Santa Claus, Santa Claus is coming town. Maybe he should have been put on a watch list. I don't know.

What do you think,

Jeff (57:07)
Yeah.

on Ketchupreditor Island. It's right next to the Misfit Toys. Well, no, it's got to...

Steve Scarfo (57:08)
All right, well you catch a predator island. my God, that's the best.

No, no, there's yeah, there's definitely a restraining order.

Jeff (57:17)
That's why the dolly's there. It's been traumatized by Santa. It's the point where you point, where did Santa touch you?

Steve Scarfo (57:20)
Alright, like I said.

That's Dolly's whole purpose was to be the exhibition doll, not exhibition. know what I mean? Example. No, we just got dark in the last five seconds. Yeah, originalgeekpodcast.com. Check me out at Steve Scarfo. And ⁓ yeah, Merry Christmas, everybody.

Jeff (57:32)
Sorry, sorry.

All right, Merry Christmas OGs. Catch you next time.

Steve Scarfo (57:50)
Bye! Bye!

00:00 Introduction to Rankin/Bass Christmas Specials
11:56 Geek Flashback
24:42 Geek Court
31:29 Basement Treasures
37:05 Geek Evolution
48:50 Geek Rant
51:42 Critical Hits & Epic Fails
57:53 Full Video End.mp4