How Bruce Willis Changed Action Movies Forever (It Started With Die Hard) | Original Geek | S1E18

Before he was an action legend, Bruce Willis was a wisecracking TV star from Moonlighting. Then Die Hard happened—and John McClane changed action movies forever.

In this episode of Original Geek, we use Die Hard as the entry point to talk about Bruce Willis’ true legacy: the rise of the vulnerable, everyman action hero. We break down why John McClane worked when muscle-bound, invincible heroes dominated the screen, and how villains like **Alan Rickman’s Hans Gruber elevated the genre. We also look at why modern heroes—from James Bond to John Wick—owe everything to this shift.

Yes, we debate whether Die Hard is a Christmas movie. But this episode is really about how Bruce Willis changed action movies forever—and why Hollywood still hasn’t replaced him.

Original Geek Podcast | Bruce Willis | Die Hard

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Hosted by stand-up comic Steve Scarfo and Forever DM Jeff Shaw, we dive deep into what it meant to be a geek in the '70s and '80s—and how that underground culture became the mainstream multiverse we live in today.

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Transcript

Jeff (00:00)
This is the whole trope, Like Hans Gruber, brilliant mastermind. And John McClane intellectually is outmatched. Like he can't, but he wins because he's tenacity and resilience and grit. he doesn't, he's like the Terminator, he never gives up.

Steve Scarfo (00:17)
Yeah.

All right, welcome to Original Geek. This is the All Fandom podcast where we dig into sci-fi, fantasy, comics, and every pop culture obsession that built the multiverse we live in today. So whether you're Gen X, millennial, or just geek curious, welcome to the basement. Hi, I'm Steve Scarfo.

Jeff (00:58)
and I'm Jeff Shaw and we'll be your Yippee-ki-yay for today's defiant final victory. What are we talking about today, Steve?

Steve Scarfo (01:05)
That's right.

I think the Yippee-Ki-Yay, if you didn't get Yippee-Ki-Yay, then you have to catch up, because we're talking Die Hard. Last episode, we did a Christmas episode for Rankin and Bass, and I will say we're gonna do another Christmas episode with Die Hard, but we'll talk more about that in a little while. So if you are not sure where that lands, stick around for Geek Court, that's all I'm saying. ⁓ So we're gonna talk about what...

You know, we talked a little bit before we started. This is probably one of the best action franchises ⁓ that have come out. it started in 1988 with Bruce Willis getting on a plane for California when he didn't want to.

Jeff (01:48)
Absolutely, yeah. And I have to say, because I know, and we're going to talk about this more later, but I was already a huge fan of Bruce Willis from Moonlighting. so I know some people were like, Bruce Willis, could he pull that off? like, I was a believer from the get-go. So ⁓ I thought that that first Die Hard was amazing. But I will admit, I did not see Die Hard 2.

until like re-release like streaming and I did see Die Hard 3 and 4 in the theater. Die Hard 5 I did wait till streaming but 3 like so I was fully on board with Die Hard 1 but I will admit with Die Hard 2 I didn't see it in the theater. Did you see it in the theater? I I don't know. Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (02:41)
Die Hard 2, I

don't think I did. At best it was a video store rental for me. Do you know what mean? It was not a movie that I saw. In fact, I will admit, I'll go one step further and admit I forgot all about the plot of Die Hard 2 until it started doing, I have seen it. I don't know why, my favorite after the original is three.

Jeff (02:48)
Yeah.

Ha ha.

Steve Scarfo (03:05)
Die Hard with a Vengeance with Samuel L. Jackson and the whole In New York. ⁓ And while we were prepping for this episode, I was going back through looking for stuff and I was like, wait, that's not two. I thought it was number two. I completely skipped over to ⁓ and thought it was number two. But, you know, we talked about how the first two are both Christmas. They're both and they're both based in Christmas. ⁓ And I knew for sure that that one was the middle of summer in New York. Right. Just because of the, you know.

Jeff (03:18)
yeah.

Steve Scarfo (03:34)
the way they run the movie, but I completely forgot about two And I don't think that's anything, it's not a knock on the movie, just I think it was one of those I saw maybe once or twice when it was probably still a videotape release. And I just have never gone back and watched it again.

Jeff (03:50)
Well, it's funny because, um, you know, as I, I really enjoyed it, but, um, one of the, one of the reasons I didn't go was I'm like, Oh, it just looks like they're recreating it. Like it looks like the same it's Christmas, you know, but we're put in an airport. um, so it just seemed like it was just going to be more of the same. Um, but box office wise, was an even bigger success.

Steve Scarfo (04:08)
Yeah.

Jeff (04:19)
than the first IHARD. And then three was bigger than two and then four was bigger than that. And actually five, which was maybe the least well received, actually still made over $300 million worldwide on a $92 million budget. So it still was a success. ⁓

Steve Scarfo (04:24)
Yeah.

And that one was the Russia one, right? A Good Day To Die Hard?

Jeff (04:46)
Yeah, he went to Russia,

yeah. And I, you know, even though I did stream two and five, I thought they were great entertaining movies. ⁓ I think, ⁓ but I agree with you, as far as sequels go, I'd say Die Hard 3, that's with a vengeance, right? Die Hard with a vengeance, yes.

Steve Scarfo (05:11)
Three die hard with a vengeance, yes.

Jeff (05:13)
Yeah,

love that. But I feel like Live Free or Die Hard was in a very similar, was closer to number three, because it has like these genius masterminds manipulating, you know, huge high stakes, know, once cyber warfare in Live Free or Die Hard. Timothy Olyphant is the villain and he's this brilliant mastermind. And then you've got

This is the whole trope, Like Hans Gruber, brilliant mastermind. And John McClane intellectually is outmatched. Like he can't, but he wins because he's tenacity and resilience and grit. he doesn't, he's like the Terminator, he never gives up.

Steve Scarfo (06:00)
Yeah.

When he's got that ⁓ He plays from behind in all the movies because he's outmatched intellectually and He's you know, he's every time thrown into a situation that someone else has been mapping out for years I think almost every one of these like I know obviously one they had been planning that forever Two The this is a takeover of the DC Airport specifically to get to you know, I mean, but they've planned it cuz it's

such a big complex thing. Die Hard with a Vengeance goes right back to the Gruber days of, you know, with his brother being the main protagonist antagonist. ⁓ So every time McClane's thrown in his switch, and it's only because he can fly by the seat of his pants. He has great intuition and he is lucky in a lot of cases, ⁓ but knows how to deal on the fly. I think that they, they set him up to

always overcome odds, which I think is one of the reasons why all of these, I agree with you, I like them all. I know number five gets kind of knocked on a little bit and maybe going to Russia might have been a little extreme at that point, ⁓ but it's always the underdog comes back to win and it's always fighting for the greater good. It's not like we pulled out, I love Ocean's 11, but it's not like we pulled off the heist and we made all the money, but we're technically the bad guys, you know what mean?

but it's bad guys stealing from bad guys in that one. But this is always a good guy fighting for good values and winning. So it's to me kind of the core of what you want in one of these movies. really does, it reminds me of like the first Rocky. Do you know I mean? Same kind of thing where it's the underdog comes back to prove his point and in this case, stay alive.

Jeff (07:51)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, and another thing I like about all of these movies is that because it has that criminal mastermind manipulating everything, that we as the audience are just as much in the dark as John McClane. And we're not just watching this for the plot or to see our hero succeed, but also to figure it out. Like what is going on? We're just as mystified.

by what they're doing because in the first one, it's like, they're terrorists and that's their motive? no, they're just common thieves. then, know, exceptional thieves, that's right. Sorry. And he's graduating to kidnapping, so be careful. exactly. ⁓ And then in Live Free or Die Hard with the cyber warfare and the fire sale and you're like, just, you know.

Steve Scarfo (08:36)
Yes. Exceptional thieves.

Yes.

Jeff (08:57)
how much of, you know, how dependent we are on computers and everything and how they can manipulate the system. And one guy can just bring, or a team of hackers can bring America, you know, to its knees because of being able to crash all of these systems. But even Die Hard 2, which was just in that airport, like that was brilliant. And ⁓ with how they,

you know, how they ⁓ could get that, could, you know, change all the air traffic and all that, all the way they manipulated that whole scenario. And you're trying to think of, what's their ultimate objective? I actually thought it was going to be deeper than it was because right from their get-go, they're like, we want this general who's, ⁓ you ⁓ know, incredibly wealthy drug smuggler.

to be free and then we're gonna go off and retire in the Caribbean. I thought it was gonna be a little bit more. We're still masterminds and it was still a clever setup, but right from the get go, like this is what we want. And I thought, no, there's gonna be a twist like all the other movies. Nope, no, no twist. That was it. That was their objective. You do it from the start.

Steve Scarfo (10:14)
Very straightforward.

Well, and then that's a little different. know, we're thinking of it with three movies past that and what they did, right? So at the time though, you know, they had the first one which had the twist. Hey, we think they're terrorists and they are everything we just talked about, but they are really just thieves. So if we're gonna make it number two, we can't give the same twists, you know, because now we're doing the same thing again. And in the third movie, they say they're thieves.

Jeff (10:44)
Although the-

Steve Scarfo (10:48)
and they are, but then they actually do, then the twist is in the twist and how they do it and how they try to push everything. ⁓

Jeff (10:56)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's brilliant. the in Die Hard 2, I thought it was it was funny because part partially I was right that it was just a redo because John McLean says a few times, I can't believe I'm another elevator shaft. I can't believe I'm, you know, doing this again. What's happening? It's the same thing. I'm like.

Steve Scarfo (11:16)
In the trailer it

actually says how does the same thing happen to the same guy two years in a row?

Jeff (11:23)
Yeah, exactly. Right.

Steve Scarfo (11:25)
It's like a line from the movie. And I

love that they poke fun at themselves. Do you know what mean? You know they put that in because everybody's gonna go, the first thing everyone's gonna say is really same guy, same situation. And they...

Jeff (11:30)
Yeah.

Yeah, so I'm glad

they didn't keep recycling that for each one. if you haven't given ⁓ three, four, and five a shot, or even gotten past two, do give them a chance because, the three, four, and even five are, like, they are original enough in their own right. And certainly three and four are amazing sequels.

Steve Scarfo (12:07)
Well, and well-written, funny. I think the balance across all five movies for the, and I actually, I never looked it up, I will have to, who wrote each one of them, but the writing is consistently tight and the performances are Bill, it's not Bill Hader, I forget his last name, the guy who played the bad guy in the second one. you you got.

Jeff (12:32)
yeah.

Steve Scarfo (12:33)
You get Gruber, ⁓ god, I'm losing everybody's real names. ⁓ Alan Rickman, ⁓ William, goodness, I forget his name. And then we get, I forget who the bad guy was, but you have Samuel L. Jackson in the movie. Like the writing and the conversation, it's tight. It reminds me of like a, it's almost sitcom scripty tight. It's not all goofy, stupid jokes, but the conversations are quick and tight. ⁓ There's no clumsy exposition.

You you see the story unfold. They talk about it enough so you know what's happening. They show you the rest. ⁓ Even in three, where they're talking about a bomb that they've just defused and they're rushing against time to beat the clock, they talk about leaving it behind. And one of them, think it's McClain, goes, can't, no, it's Samuel Jackson's character. Because you can't leave that, some kid could pick it up. And then later when the bad guys get the bomb back,

Jeff (13:26)
Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (13:31)
one of the bad guys goes to leave the suitcase behind and the other bad guy goes, you can't leave that, some kid will pick it up. And it's a tiny throwaway, right? But it just shows of the, you know, it's a callback to an earlier kind of intense line and now it becomes a little humorous, because now even the bad guys are worried about, you know, let's not blow up kids here. ⁓ Which is kind of, you know, a slightly redeeming quality, I suppose. But, so yeah, all that to say really well written. you.

you stay invested. It's not like, there's no point in time where you go, I mean, there are definitely movies I've been watching that are action movies and you go, okay, I can go to the bathroom now. This is the unnecessary love scene that they threw in because they wanted to throw some actress. Do you know I mean? Like they shoehorn in a love story where you don't need it. So these didn't have that. They stayed true to fun, poppy, with high stakes action movie.

Jeff (14:12)
Yeah.

Yep. All right. Let's flash back, man.

Steve Scarfo (14:27)
But that's... I

think we should.

Yeah

Jeff (14:38)
All right. So yeah, so putting myself back when this, when, you know, Die Hard came out and I was ready for it, like I said, because Bruce Willis, I was already a huge fan. I did not think, oh no, he couldn't do it. I have to admit, even though, and, and, you know, I probably need to, I should probably look this, probably should have looked this up before, but when did

When did Michael Keaton do Batman?

Steve Scarfo (15:08)
Are you Googling? I don't know. It's gotta be around the same time.

Jeff (15:10)
I am.

Yeah, so like I was a huge Michael Keaton fan, but I have to admit I did not think he could do Batman. Like, I'm like, really? He just seemed wrong for Batman, but he was amazing as Batman. Yeah, so that was 89. So, and ⁓ I think, yeah, so Die Hard was 88. So even though, you know, so like, so I get why some people might've been critical about Bruce Willis being able to pull off this action hero.

Steve Scarfo (15:20)
89.

Yeah, so right after Die Hard.

Jeff (15:42)
He was a wisecracking comedic actor on TV. And although Michael Keaton was already a movie star. those things, ⁓ you know, it was hard for some people to like jump into a different genre. ⁓ In that time period, it's much easier today. Much easier today.

Steve Scarfo (15:55)
Yeah, but mostly movies.

Well yeah,

and Keaton's were all comedy. And again, the Batmans that had Michael Keaton in them anyway, I think he did two or three, they had that same tone, that lighter, it's dark, have high stakes, but we're gonna throw in these moments of levity. And I really think we could talk about it, ⁓ I hadn't thought about it in terms of Batman before, there, and we could throw it into our evolution conversation, stick around for geek evolution. ⁓

We are, ⁓ I think it informed later movies and how they handle action and intensity. And they realized that it didn't take away from it, that it actually made it better, it enhances it.

Jeff (16:46)
Yeah, and

what's funny is I still didn't learn my lesson after Michael Keaton worked there and Bruce Willis. Like I said, I was already on board with Bruce Willis's transformation, but I think about when I found out that Heath Ledger was going to be the Joker. I'm like, come on, Heath Ledger? You know, for those who might not remember, like before the Joker, Heath Ledger was like in teen movies. He was like kind of this more...

Steve Scarfo (17:13)
10 things I had about you

and yeah.

Jeff (17:15)
Heartthrob,

yeah, and I like the Joker, really. He was the most amazing Joker, of course, as people know. So, I think we're wrong to pigeonhole people, but once again, we're supposed to stick with Die Hard, so I was an early adopter for Bruce Willis making that transition to the big screen.

Steve Scarfo (17:38)
I mean, I think I was in the same spot, right? Because, and it was a time when people didn't change, right? If you were a comedian or a comedy actor, you did comedy movies. And, you know, in the eighties and maybe even to the early nineties, it felt like Hollywood pigeonholed themselves. I mean, there was a thing, like don't do too many of something, because you'll get typecast. And then you can't break out was the implication.

Right? If you get typecast, that's all you do. If you get on a Star Trek episode, you're a science fiction guy. Doesn't matter. You can't move. Now, obviously we know better and we do differently, but ⁓ I loved Moonlighting. And I think I went in with the same thing because it was one of my favorite shows because I love that smart ass wisecracking and it fit and it worked. It was always part of the plot and all, you know, and now I'm to have to go back because maybe I'm just romanticizing the memories.

Jeff (18:03)
Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (18:33)
But ⁓ yeah, I don't have a lot to add, but I agree. It was awesome to see him pull off what a lot of people were like. And I think he did a great job. ⁓ But I think now we have to start the hard conversation that I think everybody.

Jeff (18:59)
No, it's easy.

Steve Scarfo (19:01)
I think everybody

knows this conversation is coming, but let's do it anyway. Cause it's Christmas.

Okay, so of course the question is die hard a Christmas movie? Is it we're gonna tell you right now

Jeff (19:17)
All right.

All right, well, so who do you want me to defend it as a Christmas movie? Because my defense of it as a Christmas movie is so strong that you probably won't even offer up any counters and will just acquiesce. So I don't know if you want to kick it off.

Steve Scarfo (19:45)
Challenge

accepted. No, no, no, no after that you can't throw the gauntlet and say I'm gonna do if I go first you can't possibly argue I think you've known me long enough to know. Yes. Yes, I can so go I got you

Jeff (19:59)
All right, so before

having to study my arguments, I thought of Die Hard as a Christmas movie as a joke that a lot of people were just in on. I thought it was funny. I didn't think it was serious. But after having done the research, it's a Christmas movie, hands down. I'm a total convert. And it starts right with the main theme. The very first sound you hear,

Slay bells. Why use Slay bells? If this wasn't a Christmas movie, does it make sense? You're not gonna have Slay bells on a July 4th movie. No, it is a Christmas movie. It's part of its DNA and set up and it needs to be, like there's some plot critical pieces here. John McClane hates flying. He hates LA. He'd never go there.

but needs a really strong, compelling reason to go there, because his family's there and it's Christmas. So point A, it's the thing that gets him to LA. Point B, the ⁓ Nakatomi Plaza has to have a skeleton crew in order for Hans Gruber's plan to work. Can't have.

Steve Scarfo (21:06)
I love how confident you are about your points right now, the way. Pointy.

Jeff (21:23)
He's got to be that Christmas Eve party with all the big players in the Nakatomi group there, and that's the only way it's gonna work. So ⁓ the police are understaffed due to the holiday, and the final bit, that packing tape, it says like...

Season's greetings or happy holidays or it's like it's Christmas packing tape It's the only thing that keeps our hero alive at the end If it's not Christmas that tape isn't there. He doesn't get to tape a gun to his back and he's dead So without it being Christmas We need that tape and If you needed any other ⁓ Evidence there's Christmas

Steve Scarfo (22:04)
Ha ha ha ha ha.

Jeff (22:15)
songs that are used in it. you know, can't have, let's get a Christmas movie, let's Christmas songs. And finally, that his wife is named Holly.

Christmas, Holly, huh? Yeah?

Steve Scarfo (22:28)
Sorry,

one of your arguments is the characters name signals that it's a Christmas movie See you made it sound like this was gonna be hard. It's You made it sound like it was gonna be hard to dismantle all of those. This is good. This is you got more, okay?

Jeff (22:31)
Yes. Holly Jolly. It's a Holly Jolly Christmas movie.

Okay, wait, wait, wait.

All right, so since you're dismissive, I will bring up one more piece. You can't be a Christmas movie if you don't have merchandise. Well, there's tons of diehard Christmas merchandise, from ugly Christmas sweaters to ornaments to what I think is the creme de la creme. I should own this, I don't. And that is...

Steve Scarfo (22:47)
no!

Jeff (23:12)
So I'm gonna have to buy it ⁓ after Christmas sale. ⁓ Hans Gruber calendar, countdown calendar with him falling from the top of Nakatomi Plaza. So the 25th day, he's down on the bottom. He's on the bottom. No, it's actual. ⁓ So if you look up Nakatomi Plaza Die Hard Advent Calendar, you can see. ⁓

Steve Scarfo (23:24)
Shut up, that's a thing.

Is it a page a day thing? Is that what it is?

⁓ it's an advent.

Jeff (23:43)
It is, ⁓ it's like, yeah, it's like a metal and you have to manually move him down every day, but he falls one day at a time to the ground until it's Christmas. It's not Christmas until Hans Gruber hits the pavement and then it's Christmas.

Steve Scarfo (23:46)
Yeah.

every time you open it up. ⁓ my God.

Okay, well.

Hmm

Okay, so.

Jeff (24:04)
So you want to give up?

Steve Scarfo (24:06)
No, are you ready to be? ⁓ bloodied like ⁓ All of his opponents in these movies Because I'm coming back at you all right ⁓ Your first point was the music Is that first music okay, so It could have really been any music to start the movie ⁓ we could have easily had the sound of

Jeff (24:21)
Absolutely, yes.

Steve Scarfo (24:34)
wind or it could have been just whatever the popular songs of the day were, whatever was in 1988 and a number one hit. ⁓ So I think the music, well, makes a strong case for you, could have easily been replaced with pretty much anything else. Your strongest argument by far is number two, the fact that the holiday leaves them with a gathering in the building.

but a skeleton crew and then the police also have a skeleton crew. But I would point out the same thing happens on Thanksgiving. And while not as exciting, could easily have been a Thanksgiving holiday situation, because the same format would be in place for the building. It would have been the skeleton crew, it's a long weekend, the cops are all off. Gruber can still easily have come in a few weeks earlier and done it during Thanksgiving.

So ⁓ then what was your third point?

Jeff (25:38)
My third

point was that packing tape.

Steve Scarfo (25:44)
packing tape. ⁓ It was a mail cart. There was plain packing tape directly next to the holiday packing tape. He it was literally on the card. I just watched it last night. It had two types of tape. He could easily have picked the plain tape. ⁓ And in merch, I will point out that Stranger Things also has ugly sweaters does not take place during Christmas. And well,

Jeff (25:51)
What?

Ha ha ha!

You

That's not true.

Steve Scarfo (26:11)
There's some episodes that take place during Christmas, but it's not a Christmas show. Well, all right, we'll go, we'll let you have that one.

Jeff (26:12)
Yes! Stranger Things is just as much a Christmas story. You just ruined your own argument.

All

the blinking lights in the first season.

Steve Scarfo (26:26)
But it doesn't take place during Christmas, she just happens to pull those out of storage because the lights were flickering. ⁓ And then...

Jeff (26:29)
It's Christmas. So Christmas. ⁓

and the dandruff from... It's like snow.

Steve Scarfo (26:36)
that like snow, it's like

I'm dreaming of a white upside down. I'm dreaming of a white upside down. ⁓ And then I might have to edit out my singing. And then, ⁓ the Holly name. That's about as, did you pull yourself, did you pull yourself taking a stretch that far to pull a muscle Because that one was pretty, I don't know, I think, I think this is,

Jeff (26:40)
Yeah, it's like a snow globe. It's beautiful.

Yes, that's the clincher.

Ha ha.

Would that name

have worked any other time of the year? No. She'd probably be Susan if it.

Steve Scarfo (27:08)
I mean, she seemed a woman in her late 30s. I'm pretty

sure she wasn't Holly just in December. Maybe she was Holly Marie and everyone called her Marie.

Jeff (27:19)
Notice that she's

only in the first two movies, which are the only two at Christmas, because her name's Holly, which is Christmas, and the other movies take place in the summer. So boom, bam, da-bam, bam.

Steve Scarfo (27:22)
that's true because they get divorced.

hahahaha

I think this,

I don't think you've got a big bang boom here. I think you make some reasoned, logical, but ultimately incorrect arguments that this has to be a Christmas movie.

Jeff (27:43)
you

and

I looked up what music it could have been in 1988 for your argument that it could have been anything and Rick Astley's Never Gonna Give You Up was one of the biggest hits of that time and aren't you glad that we didn't get Rick rolled in Die Hard? So that's a Christmas gift right there.

Steve Scarfo (27:55)
Okay.

I will admit and I will agree with you that in this point

on that one point I am so happy we did not get the Rick roll because that would have been the worst although it would have been a nice tie-in and call back at the end of the movie while Gruber was falling to go back to the Rick roll as he's falling never gonna give you up down he goes ⁓

Jeff (28:14)
never gonna give you a-

Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (28:30)
I will say, ⁓ I think it can go either way. I think it makes itself a Christmas movie by all the things that you said, but I don't think it has to have been a Christmas movie because ⁓ it both doesn't follow, there's four elements, or five, I guess there's five elements that make a movie a Christmas movie. I looked this up. Setting an atmosphere, does it take place during Christmas? Yeah. Plot dependencies, but it-

Jeff (28:55)
Boom.

Boom.

Steve Scarfo (28:59)
The story wouldn't happen without Christmas. Central themes focus on core Christmas ideas like family togetherness, right? Which is him going into, see? So iconography and music, you talk music, we talk Christmas. I'm just saying, magical elements, which include fantastical like Santa elves, I don't think it does any of that, no wonder and enchantment, so it doesn't do the fifth one. But while it does hit all four of the other four,

Jeff (29:07)
So much.

You're making all the arguments for me, thank you.

Steve Scarfo (29:27)
the plot of this movie does not require any of that because it could very easily have been Thanksgiving or another holiday. And plot dependence could have been this, the biggest plot dependence is the building's status. That's what makes this, the building being empty, skeleton crew, makes this possible. The whole thing happens because Gruber has to find the right window of time. And while something like Memorial Day,

or Labor Day probably aren't gonna do it because people don't usually gather. But for the holidays, both Thanksgiving and Christmas. I guess my biggest argument is this could have been a Thanksgiving movie.

Which sounds stupid. But there it is. ⁓ Yeah, I think... ⁓

All right, all right. I think of it as a Christmas movie too. I did. No, it could, now I will say, I think if they moved the holiday and they could justify, again, the biggest plot points are the building status and the reconciliation. If there's another reason for him to come out and the building to be empty, if there's another holiday or if it's a, you know, they were a Japanese company, maybe it was Japanese holiday that.

Jeff (30:19)
You just listed them all off.

Steve Scarfo (30:44)
know, isn't commonly known in America. It could easily have been other things, but because they chose Christmas, obviously.

Jeff (30:52)
I mean, it could have been an entirely different movie. It could have been in South America and it could have been an alien predator. it could have been, you're right. It could have been all those things. Unfortunately for your argument, it's a Christmas movie.

Steve Scarfo (30:55)
It could have had a different character, there could have been no... Yeah. It could have been Batman if it was a different movie. ⁓

⁓

All right, so ultimately we're saying I'm right and it's not a Christmas, is that what, that's what you're saying? Okay. Well, listen, if you've stayed with us and you're yelling at one of us to shut up because we're being stupid, and it's probably me, ⁓ send us a note, comment on the video, tell us what you think. ⁓ Was Die Hard actually a Christmas movie? Are you following Team Jeff or Team Steve on this one? Which way are we going?

Jeff (31:26)
Ha

Steve Scarfo (31:40)
We're gonna have to start a little chalkboard, but have to keep track. If you guys start weighing in, we'll start tracking who's winning which argument.

Jeff (31:44)
I know, we will. Yeah.

Yep.

Steve Scarfo (31:50)
You know, check us out on all those socials and like and subscribe and all that stuff and follow us where we argue about stuff like this. But right now, I think it's time to talk about some treasure.

Jeff (31:59)
Perfect.

All right, I'm gonna keep this one quick. We referenced it earlier, but I'm blowing the dust off of the Moonlighting TV show. Awesome TV show, incredibly fun. The concept is that the blue, he's David Addison, the kind of charming, quippy, romantic lead detective.

Steve Scarfo (32:21)
Yeah.

Jeff (32:39)
the Blue Moon Detective Agency, is owned by, ⁓ my God, ⁓ the actress, ⁓ I gotta look it up. Cybill Shepherd, yes, thank you. So she's a former model and she's kind of down on her luck and ⁓ she's running the detective agency as kind of the last resort and ⁓ what she needs to do to.

Steve Scarfo (32:47)
Cybill Shepherd.

I forget her character name, but it was Sibyl Shepard.

Jeff (33:07)
kind of build back her fortune after her manager took total advantage of her. then, and then, you know, for, I think four five seasons, there's, you know, a bit of, you know, will they, won't they get together, those two characters, but it was really well written, great. It'll be a great binge for folks. And it's on Hulu, Disney +, Amazon Prime, so.

Steve Scarfo (33:21)
Yeah.

Jeff (33:37)
It's out there, ready for streaming. So that's my basement treasure.

Steve Scarfo (33:42)
Yeah, great show, 100 % agree. You have to, the good thing too is it's the old school serial. So while you do see the characters evolve, like you're talking about, each episode is its own story, right? It's the old school procedural. Problem shows up, they find a fun way to fix it, problem resolves, right?

So you don't have to watch the whole thing. It's not one of these like Stranger Things, which we know we love, where you have to have been watching to keep up with the story. ⁓ You know, the only thing that changes is their relationship status as you go through it.

Jeff (34:17)
But another thing that changes is, and certainly it's been a while, but I know there's still shows out there that have long seasons, but TV shows were always 22 episode seasons. That's just the way it was. And now so many are just 10 episodes here. ⁓ But yeah, so these were 22 episode plus seasons. So there's plenty to binge.

Steve Scarfo (34:31)
Yeah.

Yeah. And just to put the button on that part, these are 88 TV episodes. So while we watched for an hour, these episodes were like 42, 44 minutes because there were commercials that they had. And it was, you know, it was live broadcast, not live, but it was broadcast at a specific time. So they had no choice but to stay within the hour. It was eight to nine because there was another show at night. Like today, when you stream a TV show, it could be 33 minutes, could be 117. You know what I mean?

Jeff (34:54)
Yeah.

so many commercials.

Steve Scarfo (35:14)
These are short, so don't feel like you're getting into any heavy lifting. So, go watch Moonlighting, but after you watch Moonlighting, go see the movie, or go stream the movie, I should say, Hudson Hawk. Okay, this is a movie that came out in 1991, and it is the epitome, I think, of the Bruce Willis brand for a movie. It's fun.

Jeff (35:29)
Great movie.

Steve Scarfo (35:39)
It's action packed, there's high stakes involved. It's snarky, he's hysterical in it. ⁓ He works with Danny Aiello in this movie, who I love from other movies. was more, Danny Aiello was always sort of a mobster type, harder, know, very much a bad guy, like badass or bad, not always the villain, but like he was a tough guy. He was always in serious movies. So to see him in this where he was lighthearted and playing with Bruce Willis in this movie.

It's a heist movie that goes around the world. It's got almost a national treasure feel to it, because there's some secrets and they have to figure out puzzles. Andy McDowell's in this movie and she's great too. There's so many great, ⁓ and actually the bad guys in this movie are Sandra Bernhard and, ⁓ what's the other guy's name? He plays a, he's such a fun character actor. ⁓

Hold on. I had my notes up, but I missed... ⁓

Where is the cast list? Top cast. Andy McDowell, Sandra Bernhardt. Richard E. Grant. So Richard E. Grant and Sandra Bernhardt play like wildly psychotic, like over the top psychotic villains. And the type of character actors that both of them are, they just make it fun. It's a little campy. It's not like a, it's not.

But if you're watching like a national treasure style movie, you don't want it to be too intense. You want it to have some fun ⁓ So Hudson Hawk, I don't want to belabor the point go see it I might actually watch it again later today because it's such a great movie and it's just a fun fun watch and there's a There's a fun moment where they do a heist and they use the song moon dance By Van Morrison Yeah, right

It's a marvelous night for a moon dance. Isn't that?

Jeff (37:42)
yeah.

Yeah, but the song for their timing is swinging on a star.

where they're singing the song to get the, I don't know, but it's awesome. that's, it's a great scene.

Steve Scarfo (37:49)
it is swinging on a star. Why do they do moon dance? They do it with moon dance too at some point. Yeah.

All right, I got the song wrong, but it's fantastic. ⁓ Yeah, go see Hudson Hawk.

Jeff (38:00)
Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (38:11)
We're gonna talk a little bit more about Bruce.

Jeff (38:13)
Right. Yes. So, yeah, what I want to talk about with evolution with this impact is really how he, um, you know, he went, you know, his character of John McClain evolved the action movie star that it was before that they were like invincible. Arnold Schwarzenegger, Stallone, but, and even like James Bond, um, you know, he,

like got out of so many scrapes, hardly injured at all. Whereas like at the end of Die Hard and throughout Die Hard, he's just getting hit after hit, his bare feet, walking on crushed glass. Just the vulnerable hero is just was not, that was not a thing. Like this was the first time you saw a hero that just, you really were concerned that he wasn't gonna make it.

And since then, we've had a lot of heroes like that. And I think that we don't get Daniel Craig's version of James Bond without John McClain. And I love Daniel Craig's version of James Bond, where he's not relying on gadgets, where it's brute force, improvised weaponry. And, you know, and there's plenty of other, you know, variations of this hero out there today.

but that is not what it was. I think, yeah, when I think about it too, like John Wick is like a combo of that, like the invulnerable hero plus the one who gets beaten up. Like if you've watched John Wick, like how could he endure so much pain? ⁓ It's ridiculous. then he's, ⁓ there is a bit of ridiculousness about the John Wick pain and Ballerina is even worse. Like if you've seen that. ⁓

Steve Scarfo (39:56)
Yeah.

god yeah.

Jeff (40:12)
Like she gets even beaten up worse and yet just keeps going. ⁓ so it's yeah, like, like it's.

Steve Scarfo (40:17)
and still looks fabulous. I mean like

there's no bloodying of her face. Maybe a little bit. She's never beat up.

Jeff (40:22)
Right, it's

like McClain looks exhausted and he's just barely limping along at the end. Whereas John Wick and the ballerina are still like, they should be dead, but they're still moving just fine, so.

Steve Scarfo (40:41)
⁓ Yeah, think obviously having a comedy background and loving that stuff, I loved seeing someone who was so good at what he did. ⁓ I feel the same way about Jim Carrey actually. And Robin Williams, felt this of. took, and those guys were a little bit more extreme in their transitions, right? But they went from the comedy genre, which they were all very good at.

and moved over to more serious, more intense roles. And yes, Hudson Hawk, the diehard movies. I think we talked about it few episodes. I watched that movie Death Becomes Her with My Daughter, which was a Bruce Willis, he was in it. It wasn't his movie, but he was in it. And they're all a little sillier, campier in some ways, but he went from that, he went from Ted Danson on Cheers to

Jeff (41:25)
Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (41:37)
like a little Arnold Schwarzenegger, right? ⁓ Or Stallone, like he, I love Ted Danson and he's done some great stuff, but he never made that jump. Woody Harrelson's made that jump a little bit, but Bruce Willis went from funny TV guy to certified ⁓ action hero. I mean, even in the movies that make fun of action heroes, it's Stallone, Schwarzenegger, and Bruce Willis. Those are the three that they're at the top of that list when they're kind of,

Jeff (41:39)
Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (42:06)
poking fun at the action heroes. Stallone even did a movie called Last Action Hero where in the video store in the alternate universe, ⁓ Bruce Willis played Terminator. It was a poster of Bruce Willis as the Terminator. I don't know why that sticks in my head, but I love that movie, it was fun too. But he made that jump and so this evolution of him, ⁓ he did, he set the stage for that.

Jeff (42:26)
That's funny.

Steve Scarfo (42:36)
Every man, kind of funny movie. And I think he did, you know, I think he did his job, as we're so fond of saying these days, you know what mean? He went out and did it. And it wasn't, you know, was every movie he ever made a slap? No, I'm sure there were a couple that I'm not thinking of that were probably fell down a little bit, but not this set and certainly not some of the other ones we talked about. I think he pulled off a hell of a

of a swap.

Jeff (43:07)
Yeah, actually when I think about him, one of the first movies I saw him shift out of action hero mode or just kind of funny role mode was The Twelve Monkeys. So, Twelve Monkeys also has Brad Pitt. Yeah, that's another basement treasure. Digging out a second one. It's a brilliant movie.

Steve Scarfo (43:23)
Yes.

Yeah, I forgot he was 12 monkeys. That's weird.

Jeff (43:36)
And it deals with it's kind of a sci-fi movie and he's not an action hero. He's not playing a comedic role. He's a guy from a dystopian future. They've invented time travel and they're sending these expendable people back in time to try to change the timeline so that the world doesn't get destroyed by this virus. And so I don't want to ruin anything, but

He's going insane because of, he keeps getting sent back and forth through time because they can't find the right time to put him. And the machine's sending him to World War I, it's sending him all over the place, and he finally ends up in the right ⁓ timeline. And it's just, a brilliant ⁓ movie. Terry Gilliam of Monty Python fame created it, so.

Steve Scarfo (44:16)
this anime.

Yeah.

I think that was the first time I remember seeing Brad Pitt. It was 12 Monkeys.

Jeff (44:36)
Yes, it's one of Brad Pitt's early

roles. His earliest was Thelma and Louise. ⁓ And what's great about Brad Pitt is he also is playing against character. He looks, he's also deranged and crazy. And he's not like, because, know, another thing at that time is like, if you're a handsome actor, you play handsome roles. And he ⁓ was not, at least in the insane asylum that we first find him in. He was very against character.

Steve Scarfo (44:40)
Yeah.

He's not the handsome, yeah.

Alright.

Jeff (45:05)
as well.

Steve Scarfo (45:06)
I

do think it's funny you say that too because I remember there used to be sort of a joke.

It wasn't like a piece of material specifically, but there was this thought process that if an actor wanted to get nominated for, I think I even mentioned it one of the TV shows as a joke at the time. But if you wanted, if you were as an actor or a serious actor, if you wanted to get nominated for an Oscar, you had to show yourself deformed in some way. Like you couldn't be pretty, right? If you want to get an Oscar nod, make yourself look bad and then you'll get nominated just because you did that. Because you were so brave not to be pretty. ⁓

Jeff (45:29)
Yes.

Yeah,

Jeanine Garofalo, for those who know, she's a comedic, she was a stand-up comic, then a comedic actress, and she had a line similar to that where, because there were women who were like, oh my God, she gained 40 pounds for that role. And she's like, why'd you hire her? I've got the 40. I've already, you know, I don't have to gain it. I can just do the role. So I'm not.

Steve Scarfo (45:59)
Yes. I did not hear.

Jeff (46:06)
And that Julia Roberts gaining 40 pounds. I'm right here, ready for the role.

Steve Scarfo (46:10)
Yes.

That's hysterical. I've not heard that bit, but that sounds on brand for her and exactly what I'm talking about. ⁓ There's another movie too, I guess another Basement Treasure, if you haven't seen it, The Fifth Element ⁓ was a sci-fi, one of Chris Tucker's first movie, Milla Jovovich plays this being who...

has to save the universe and it's a fun sci-fi. Gary Oldman, one of my favorites, plays the very goofy looking but deranged bad guy. Fifth Element's another fun watch. So definitely check that out. ⁓

Jeff (46:40)
Yeah, he's so good in that role.

Nice. All right, yeah, so that's

our evolution. That ⁓ McLean character and his portrayal of it influenced so many heroes today. So when you watch an action movie, you're seeing a very realistic representation of a human being who can be vulnerable, who can get hurt, who has to deal with that. Even Jason Bourne, you could see that happening, even though he has these...

Steve Scarfo (47:17)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff (47:17)
like almost superhuman powers, but he still gets hurt. I know it seems weird, but for us who grew up on the A-Team where they crashed a helicopter or getting sprayed with bullets and they're just unscathed, that was so common. Or like Stallone might get grazed, but it wasn't that bad.

Steve Scarfo (47:39)
Yeah.

So funny detour, I don't know if you knew this, in the A-Team, nobody ever died. Even the bad guys, when they got blew up, nobody ever died and it was because Mr. T, who had just come off a Rocky movie and was huge, wouldn't be in the show if people died. He didn't want to be connected with it. Isn't that weird? Sorry, you said it, it popped into my brain.

Jeff (47:49)
yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So,

yeah. So invulnerable heroes and sometimes even villains were commonplace. So.

Steve Scarfo (48:08)
Yes.

All right, but let's talk about what you guys should do. I think we started to, but we're gonna do it again anyway.

I think my message is clear. Go see these little known movies and realize that the action heroes that you're used to today started with this movie. Die Hard, as far as I'm concerned, is the birth of this kind of things. So short and sweet. Don't blow it off because it was made in the 80s. It's a great movie.

Jeff (48:53)
It's funny, know, as it just occurred to me, because I trying to think of a more modern example and people kind of ripped on the new Superman for getting his ass kicked like time and time again. I'm like, it's kind of, you this is kind of a John McClane Superman, you know, because he like every other version of Superman. It's not that he doesn't have tough battles. They do. Otherwise, it's not very exciting. But, you know, to start the thing off with him.

Steve Scarfo (49:20)
Yeah.

Jeff (49:23)
beaten in the snow, needing to be rescued by his dog. Yeah, think, yeah, I can see that. So yeah, ⁓ give these movies a try and check out a lot of the Bruce Willis content that's out there that you can stream. It's a lot of great stuff. So that's our message.

Steve Scarfo (49:44)
Yeah, nice and sweet.

All right, I have a critical, now we're back just to Die Hard. Right? We do this, if you're a listener and you're with us, you know we have a topic, but we never stick with it entirely. ⁓ And that's good, I love it. We get to have some fun and talk about all sorts of stuff. But in this case, my hit is specifically about the movie Die Hard. And it's Alan Rickman as Hans Gruber. ⁓

Jeff (49:56)
Yes. Yes.

Steve Scarfo (50:19)
I love Alan Rickman, I loved Alan Rickman as an actor because I think we talked about it in one of the other episodes, even in movies like Galaxy Quest, here I go going on to another movie, even after I just said I'm gonna stick with Die Hard, he put so much into his work and it's so obvious. When, and you made a joke about it earlier, when he said, yes, and I'm graduating to ⁓ kidnapping, so you better be careful, like that line.

Again, I just rewatched this movie last night and in the mania and the ⁓ psychosis in his face is so clean. Like you believe, it's not put on. He is in a spot where you believe he is this person. And I think the thing that makes, I heard an interview with, I almost think it was ⁓ Jamie Campbell Bauer, the guy who plays Vecna.

He was talking with one of the other castmates and and they said this and I think it's a hundred percent true The bad guy has to believe he's right The bad guy can't think he's a bad guy. The bad guy thinks he's the one and he's got a real reason This I'm the hero of my story, right? That's a thing. That's not this is I'm not pretending I'm making this up. It's just something I'm pointing out. This is ⁓ This is what makes him so good. He makes you believe that Hans Gruber

is truly this deranged, but he thinks he's the right one. He thinks he's doing this for a right reason, even though he knows he's a thief. ⁓ So that's my hit. I think Alan Rickman was phenomenal on this movie.

Jeff (51:58)
Yeah, and also Hans Gruber had a similar effect in cinema and his version of it that sophisticated mastermind and you can kind of see it in Javier Bardem's Skyfall, Bond villain Raul Silva, and then Samuel Jackson's Richmond Valentine and Kinsman the Secret Service, that kind of very sophisticated mastermind. really...

I really do think that Hans Gruber helped evolve villains just like John McClane evolved heroes. And now my epic fail is more of an epic miss. It wasn't a fail, but I felt like ⁓ Lucy Gennaro-McClane is played by Mary Elizabeth Winstead in a Good Day to Die Hard in 2013.

And before that in Live Free or Die Hard in 2007. And she is a great action hero. And she's already in that Live Free or Die Hard is showing that, you know, McLean, ⁓ John McLean spirit. ⁓ And I felt like it would have been, you know, there was a miss in the franchise to keep that thing going. Cause Bruce Willis was, is unfortunately, ⁓

You both aged out and also but even if he's not quite aged out because we have a lot of older action heroes these days he has ⁓ what's his he has an ailment right of some sort Yeah, so like he can't do it. but I felt like ⁓ She's so good as in that role with a very similar attitude as her dad And that actress is really good with action movies. If you haven't seen kate

Steve Scarfo (53:37)
I almost think it's Parkinson's.

Jeff (53:54)
that she came out in 2021, it's the same thing. She's getting the crap beat out of her, but she's still like, she keeps going until mission is accomplished. And so, and she's done a number of other kind of action type movies. She's also in the Ashoka TV series. So she's a great, you know, actress and can really pull off that role. that was my.

It's not an epic fail, it's just more like they could have, like, amiss, that they could have kept this thing going. Because it's a great franchise.

Steve Scarfo (54:30)
Yeah, yeah, it's funny you you were talking about how Gruber ⁓ Elevates the villain which I agree with and it made me think of unbreakable ⁓ So unbreakable is a 2000 I was doing some live googling there ⁓ but it's a movie from 2000 with both Bruce Willis and Samuel L Jackson and it was they they worked together for diehard and event with a vengeance in 95 so this was and in this movie obviously they're opposite each other, but

Jeff (54:41)
Yes.

Yes, that's right.

Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (55:00)
Mr. Glass is that sophisticated villain. So it's funny that there's sort of a coincidental tie back to they, know, one of Bruce Willis's movies starts this trend and then, you know, 12 years later, ⁓ you know, takes advantage of it. And it's him again.

Jeff (55:04)
Yeah.

And then funny enough,

he plays a role. I know he has an Achilles heel that is literally an invulnerable. He's like, he's like, McClane, I can be hurt. like, gonna change the action hero genre. But then I'm also gonna play this, the hero that is literally invulnerable.

Steve Scarfo (55:28)
It's the reverse.

Yes.

You know, it's funny, we started off with the idea that this was gonna be a diehard ⁓ episode. And I think it's really a Bruce Willis episode, ⁓ such a great actor. And I just looked it up, he's suffering from frontotemporal dementia. it's also a memory disease, but it's his body is shutting down on him. So it's sad, but ⁓ God, he left us a body of work that is amazing. And so... ⁓

Jeff (55:47)
It's a Bruce Willis episode. Bruce, we love ya.

Steve Scarfo (56:10)
Whether you believe or me that it's not a Christmas movie or Jeff that it is, start with Die Hard or actually start with Moonlighting and go see Bruce Willis stuff. But this will likely be our, I don't know if we'll even get this, I might get this out for Christmas. Hopefully I do if we didn't see you before Christmas. Merry Christmas, happy holidays. Whatever you wanna say to each other, just be nice and be happy. But follow us on all social media.

For those of you who've been engaging with our content, we love it. Thank you. Keep talking. Keep asking questions. OriginalGeekPodcast.gmail.com. I'm at Steve Scarfo on all social media. Do you want to give out your social media if people want to reach out to you directly?

Jeff (56:53)
They can find me.

Steve Scarfo (56:54)
They can find him. He won't answer you anyway. He's a pain.

I know, but reach out to either one of us. Follow us across the board and check out any stand-up shows. I got some stuff coming up. But otherwise, ⁓ have a great holiday and yeah, go see Bruce.

Jeff (57:15)
Yippee-ki-yay OGs! ⁓

00:00 Die Hard Was the Beginning — Bruce Willis Was the Legacy
14:38 Geek Flashback
19:08 Geek Court
32:05 Basement Treasures
38:04 Geek Evolution: Bruce Willis from Everyman to Action Star
48:19 Geek Rant
49:45 Critical Hits & Epic Fails
55:41 Bruce Willis: A Legacy of Greatness