How Game of Thrones Changed Fantasy Forever | Original Geek | S1E24

Before Game of Thrones, fantasy was rarely treated as prestige television.

Then HBO brought George R.R. Martin’s world of Westeros to life — and the genre was never the same.

In this episode of Original Geek, we revisit the cultural impact of Game of Thrones, debate the best character arcs (Arya vs Daenerys), revisit the controversial final season, and explore why A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms feels like a return to what made the franchise great.

Was this the moment fantasy grew up?
Or did it lose its way?

Welcome back to Westeros.

🎙️ Original Geek — Gen X geek culture from people who lived it.
Hosted by Steve Scarfo and Jeff Shaw.

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Transcript

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Steve Scarfo (00:00)
Yeah, we we start we start with White Walker death destruction. We run right into ⁓ incest and child murder or almost murder. Attempted murder like hey, that's just the first five pages of the book.

Jeff (00:09)
Yeah, attempted.

Steve Scarfo (00:36)
Hey, welcome to Original Geek. This is the All Fandom Podcast where we dig into sci-fi, fantasy, comics, and every pop culture obsession that built the multiverse we live in today. So whether you're Gen X, a millennial, or just geek curious, welcome to the basement. Hi, I'm Steve Scarfo.

Jeff (00:51)
And I'm Jeff Shaw and we'll be your Squires for today's Tournament of Champions. Because today we're going to Westeros. We're talking Game of Thrones. We're talking Night of the Seven Kingdoms. What do you think about that, Stu?

Steve Scarfo (01:13)
I just like the tune. We're gonna talk the song later. The score later. But yeah, I mean, this is the this is what sort of kicked off. ⁓ I think the modern age, if you will, of how fantasy is handled on TV and streaming platforms Game of Thrones on ⁓ on HBO.

Jeff (01:15)
Ha ha ha.

Steve Scarfo (01:36)
gave legitimacy to this subject matter, you know, we have some great movies that we've talked about doing episodes on that we I know I think we must have referenced a couple times Hawk the Slayer and ⁓ these old goofy cheeseball fantasy that were still fun to watch crawl. You know what mean? But this was fantasy movie fantasy content was always sort of ⁓

B-movie, we're not gonna put a lot of money or time or energy into it. We'll put it out there for the nerds and we're not gonna do justice of it. But Game of Thrones hit and it was, ⁓ you know, from the very first episode, they showed they were bringing great actors. brought, you know, they stayed, we talked about it before we started, they stayed true to the source material. ⁓ And they did a great job, mostly.

Jeff (02:29)
So as long as they have the source material, this is accurate. But it's funny, like you said, it changed the way fantasy was kind of perceived and expanded its audience. Except, and you talked about this in a different episode, I'm able to do a deeper dive, the Wheel of Time. For whatever reason, Amazon wanted its Game of Thrones, which was this amazing show where people

Steve Scarfo (02:34)
Yes.

Hehehehe

Jeff (02:58)
In our streaming world, we're glued to a specific timeframe and this does not happen much. A lot of us see something not when it premieres. We'll see it, we'll watch it later. We'll just view it when we can. can fast. I know HBO doesn't have commercials, but you know, for regular TV, like we do everything we can to not see it when it premieres. It doesn't fit in our schedule, whatever. But HBO brought that back.

Like you did not want a spoiler. You wanted to be part of it. And what amazes me, because I actually read the books, that people would comment like, my God, can you believe it? Like, yes, yes I can. Like that easy to find out because they stuck to the source material.

Steve Scarfo (03:54)
It's weird if only there was a way for us to have known ahead of time. So but see, I think that just proves what we're trying to talk about, right? Because so many people were invested from the get and who had not read the books, this kind of material is generally and Wheel of Time, I think, is that same kind of thing, right?

Jeff (03:58)
that Ned Stark dies. Sorry, spoiler alert.

Steve Scarfo (04:18)
Wheel of Time could have been another Game of Thrones. It brought its source crowd with us. There are all of those of us who love the books and the books to me are phenomenal. And when they did the things that they did and were so far away and so far departed from the source, nobody expects the source material 100%. We understand that it's a film adaptation. You have to take some liberties. There have to be changes. But you don't change whole characters. You don't.

You don't mess with that stuff, but because they didn't and George RR Martin is a great writer, he had his stuff down and I'm sure this wasn't something he penned in a weekend. You know what mean? He planned it out. had, I don't know how many books were in the series, but he knew this was going to be a big story. He planned each ⁓ scene, I keep wanting to say each episode, he, each book, right? When they took that and adapted it perfectly,

it brought a whole new crowd, people who hadn't read the books. Because you see this on screen, you know, and it starts with this creepy ass walker scene, not walker, white walkers. ⁓ You know, out of the gate, you're like, what the hell is going on? And why do I not know about this? And I had heard of the books, I knew you guys had read them. ⁓

I've talked about my kids make fun of me. I don't read anymore. Unfortunately, I never have time to sit down. I told you the other day I've been reading I Know but I've literally been reading the same book a 250 page book people I've been reading it for like a month because every time I pick it up I read like four pages and pass out

Jeff (05:49)
The book came out in 96.

The,

well, I think what is interesting, what I think it might have worked for HBO and maybe why they selected it is because ⁓ as far as entry into fantasy for folks who might think, that's not really for me, it's low magic. It's high on intrigue and politics and character development.

Steve Scarfo (06:25)
Yes.

Jeff (06:29)
And it's the pacing is is really strong. And so you become invested in these characters and he's really good at immediately heightening things like. ⁓ Yeah, so I think it was more like medieval fiction than medieval fantasy. And least initially, yeah, you immediately saw the White Walker.

Steve Scarfo (06:42)
the tension right off the nut.

Yeah.

Jeff (06:58)
Right there, White Walkers. Now I'm starting to question. Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (06:58)
I don't know, it's White Walker, ⁓

you don't actually, I don't remember, do you actually see them? I think maybe you get a close up of it, like it's such a close up you can't really, I don't remember the opening scene, but yeah, it's literally just a couple of minutes and it's mostly the aftermath of what they had done as they passed through. But no, you're right, they really focus on the characters ⁓ and the...

Jeff (07:12)
And then it's gone, then it's gone. It's the same in the book.

Steve Scarfo (07:28)
the politics and the stories of the world, right? What's happening? So you're right. It's very, it's a light touch for a fantasy. There are some creatures, but not like a D &D movie where there's, you know, dozens of creatures. There's some magic, but it's light and it's hard to access. Not again, like a D &D movie would be.

Jeff (07:49)
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I think Bran catching Cersei and Jaime ⁓ in bed. Yeah, and then gets thrown off. The things he does for love. Jaime.

Steve Scarfo (08:00)
Well, not even in bed, in hay.

Cause he goes and climbs the tower, right?

And that's within the first.

Yes, that's such a great line, but that's in like the first what five or 10 minutes. ⁓ Yeah, we we start we start with White Walker death destruction. We run right into ⁓ incest and child murder or almost murder. Attempted murder like hey, that's just the first five pages of the book.

Jeff (08:20)
Well, that's what I mean. Like, I can immediately you're like, oh my God. And.

Yeah, attempted.

Yeah, it's wild. was, and I think that's why it worked. then until it didn't quite as much, I know we're gonna talk about that epic fail, but as soon as they ran out of George R. R. source material and they were flying on their own, they did not prove to be as adept at creating content as they were at adapting.

Steve Scarfo (08:41)
or whatever, first chapter.

Yeah.

No. And this is something, and I know we're a Game of Thrones, but I'll probably talk Will of Time a lot because of these changes in that shift. ⁓ If any production heads are listening, if you find a book or a series of books, whether it's fantasy, whether it's Jack Reacher, whatever you're adapting, there's a reason people like the source material. They don't want your interpretation.

get it, you want to put your own little spin on it. Do that to your story. If you're adapting someone else's story, tell their goddamn story. Because that's what we like. I didn't read the Wheel of Time eight or 10 or 14, whatever the hell books it was to read your interpretation. And in the first 10 minutes, screw up the mythos of the friggin story. And this is what happens later seasons in Game of Thrones is they decided, oh, well,

We're ahead of him now. So let's just put our little spit. No, no, you don't don't put your spin on it You go to the guy who wrote the damn story and tell him hey, give me some outlines to work from I Realized the books he was weren't done. But sorry, this should have been my rant I'm gonna I cut this out and put it at the end. I rant again about the end pisses me off But right now let's we're digging deep Let's do it

Jeff (10:29)
Better to... Better flash.

All right, so like I said, the book came out in 96, so what have we got? That's 30 years ago? Yeah, so this counts for a gee flashback. Normally we're flashing back to the 70s or 80s, but I think 30 years counts as a flashback. But to be honest,

Steve Scarfo (10:49)
30 years ago.

Jeff, I'm

56. Two days ago counts as a flashback.

Jeff (11:03)
To be honest, I was not an early adopter of Game of Thrones. I think the second book came out in 98 and my wife who is a faster reader than I, we read the same books generally and she has read so much more than I though. So she would pick up something. So maybe I'm still reading a Robert Jordan book.

at that time and she's already into something else and so she's reading Game of Thrones and she's getting annoyed because in Game of Thrones, ⁓ those of you who have not read the book, Steve for instance, each chapter is told from a different character point of view. And if she's starting with Ned Stark, so it says Ned and then the next thing it says Tyrion.

Steve Scarfo (11:46)
me.

Jeff (12:00)
then it's Caitlin Stark, and then it's Jon Snow. And then what she would do, because she was getting, she was like, no, because he was always cliffhanger, it was always a cliffhanger, every chapter. And then you wanted to read the next one as fast, and then you got into the next character point of view. So she read it in a very weird way. She read all of the Ned chapters, then all the Tyrion chapters, and then all the Bran chapters, and Jon, she just did not read it.

Steve Scarfo (12:10)
Every, yeah, every chapter.

Yeah, she did not.

Jeff (12:30)
the way it was intended, but she needed to know, what's going on with Ned? ⁓

Steve Scarfo (12:37)
They should republish

the book in that order.

Jeff (12:39)
So she, whoever, she's like, let me know if this bugs you. And like, it did not bug me. It made me read it faster actually, cause I had to get what, what's, geez, brands like on the ground. What's going on? no. Let's jump to Tyrion in a whore house. Like, okay, let's get through the whore house. So I can find out what happened to Bran. So yeah. So that's my flashback is we loved those books.

Steve Scarfo (13:05)
That Jeff, that's all he thinks about. Let's go through it.

Jeff (13:09)
and ⁓ that structure. And it was so original because 15 chapters, the most of any character was given to Ned. So you're thinking Game of Thrones is Ned's story. Like at Switchpoint of view, I get that. But Ned had the most and everything's gonna focus on him. We thought he was gonna be our hero. He gets his head chopped off in the first book. And then the second book, it's mostly Tyrion.

Steve Scarfo (13:35)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff (13:39)
And actually, Tyrion, of course, survives until the end, as far as we know. Still alive.

Steve Scarfo (13:47)
Yeah. Yeah, it's funny because obviously the show ran each season ran the length of a book, right? So ⁓ as a non reader, and consumer in that way, I didn't know that's what was coming. So it definitely caught me by surprise because as again, an outsider will just watching. I was totally thinking this is his story. This is his family story. This is how this is going to go.

And of course it becomes a much more robust character driven story across tons of characters. But you certainly start thinking that that's going to be him. I'm going to just continue on mine was that this is that line of demarcation. And I guess I said it a little bit in our in the opening of the Daily Topic part of the day. But, you know, there used to be these movies like Hog the Slayer and Crawl like I was talking about earlier, they were fun and goofy.

And you know, but you they were super niche. ⁓ And they were very, you know, I don't even know what to say. They weren't well publicized. They weren't out there. You know, they were almost direct to video when video is still VHS tapes. ⁓ And we had we had kind of accepted that this is the quality that we are going to get. No one's going to put any real time or effort into this. So when they dropped it,

this to me. Um, and again, I, it wasn't 30 years ago for the book. See, I told you was going to live Google ahead of time and I didn't because I don't know when the TV show started. It had to be at least 15 years ago. Um, uh, you want to do it? Game of Thrones. Uh, let's see. It started in 2011. So we're talking 15 years ago.

Jeff (15:24)
I can do it.

Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (15:38)
⁓ So maybe it's not quite as flashy and back as like I said three days I don't remember what I did on Friday ⁓ but

This was such a big change, such a good change. ⁓ And I do think it lit the fires under all of the studios and the streaming services. Some of them have gotten it like the Witcher. I don't think the Witcher happens on Netflix without Game of Thrones destroying on HBO, for instance. So that's to me, the flashback to me is

I sort of felt validated as a fan of this type of content that, yes, okay, finally someone's taking us seriously. And finally we're doing something.

Jeff (16:25)
Yep.

Absolutely.

I want to talk Night of the Seven Kingdoms.

Steve Scarfo (16:34)
All right, well, welcome to an original geek random review. We set the topic, the dice set the direction. We know what we're reviewing, just not how. Now, if you've been following us, you know how we do this. We have ⁓ a AI generated list of things to talk about. And we do this on purpose so that we can ⁓ not be prepared.

Jeff (16:54)
Thanks, Google Gemini.

be the least prepared we can be.

Steve Scarfo (17:04)
Yeah, that's the random, right? It's not just we don't know which one of the items we're gonna get. We don't even wanna know what they are so that we have to, yeah, we wanna talk, what's my, this is a word I learned from you and I love it, extemporaneously. It takes me three times in my head to say it so I can get all the syllables. But yeah, we just wanna have fun with it. this is about specifically the first four episodes of A Night of the Seven Kingdoms.

Jeff (17:11)
off the cuff as possible.

Steve Scarfo (17:33)
Yeah, at some point you will see the chart pop up on screen if you haven't already. And you'll get to see what we're doing. As always, like, follow, subscribe, join the conversation, put comments in. If you saw one of the other options we didn't get to, but you wanna talk about it, throw some comments at us and we'll talk about it. You wanna do, you wanna roll or do you wanna review? Oh, okay, you go first, you roll.

Jeff (17:55)
I'm ready to roll.

17. Successful Wisdom Check The True Knight philosophy. Dunk's struggle to afford armor and horses. It's the heart of the series. Episode 2's focus on the financial reality of being a knight, haggling for shields, worrying about the ransom, provided a wise look at the feudal system that Game of Thrones often glossed.

Steve Scarfo (18:26)
Yeah, ⁓ this is one of my favorite parts of the show. Not specifically the money, but the point of view of the Hedge Knight. ⁓ Because it's far removed, like, you know, we're just talking about Ned Stark, but he's a lord and his ⁓ Baratheon's his brother-in-law, and they're like all at the top of the list. You know, these are the people who are in the courts.

Jeff (18:35)
Mmm.

Steve Scarfo (18:56)
and who are running the kingdoms and they run the regions. ⁓ Dunk is just, well, he's Dunk, know, he's a simple hedge knight. ⁓ And the fact that he, know, you see these scenes in Game of Thrones where everybody's walking around with the most burnished armor and like, have all the, like they have everything and it's amazing. The swords are huge and the shields are decorative and

You don't think about it because they're just always there, right? It's just, it's a set piece for the Game of Thrones. When you get to this guy's story, we start in seeing him bury his former master and realizing, shit, this is all he has. He has a sword, a shield, and some armor, and that's it. Couple horses. You know what I mean? He doesn't even have that much money.

Jeff (19:29)
Right.

Steve Scarfo (19:52)
But he still lives this life of a night. So it was very kind of cool to see in in an episode for when they talk more about ⁓ The challenge that comes at him you see that turn back around because he was had the guy he was haggling with for the armor ⁓ Ends up turning it back around and giving him a really good deal because he proved himself as a night

Jeff (20:18)
Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (20:21)
because a true knight is about honor and protecting the innocent. ⁓ I am trying to be somewhat spoiler light ⁓ if you haven't actually seen the episodes yet, but yeah, I thought it was great. I think they did a great job and it was a really cool perspective.

Jeff (20:38)
Yeah, and it's funny, this has been a bit of a theme for some of our episodes recently because having that smaller story with a more minor character, ⁓ Greenland when it comes to disaster movies focusing on more of an average Joe, you might mention the Star Trek's lower decks is one of your favorite shows, which is not the people on the bridge, which is what every Star Trek episode is the people on the bridge. Now this is the lower decks.

And so I think that's really, I love that they did that. And ⁓ I'm going to admit that when this novella came out, Dunk and Egg, or The Hedge Knight, whatever you called it, I was so pissed. Because I'm like, write the fucking fifth book already. Finish it. I don't need this flashback.

Steve Scarfo (21:30)
You

So this is

Jeff (21:38)
Prologue, novella, I need the book done. Focus, man, focus.

Steve Scarfo (21:43)
Now, this

is is hysterical to me because I guess I didn't again because I didn't read the books and I didn't like we did with Robert Jordan where we waited with bated breath I didn't for his so I did not realize that this was like a stopgap between full version full episodes or not episodes full books. Alright, awesome. So. All right, here we go.

Jeff (21:58)
Yeah, so annoying. So annoying. So yeah.

Steve Scarfo (22:07)
Ooh, 19. ⁓ Successful, ⁓ you just said it, successful charisma check. The Dunk and Egg chemistry, the big brother, little brother dynamic. The show's secret weapon, if you will. The banter between the two Dunks grumpiness versus Egg's snark is being compared to the best of The Last of Us. Their chemistry carries even when the slowest dialogue heavy scenes, I think.

Jeff (22:34)
Yeah,

this dynamic, it works really well there. once again, like I said, like when I first heard this, this book, was like, piss, when I heard the show, they're going to make a new show. I'm like, oh, come on. Like just give it. And at this point, I'm just like, give us more House of the Dragon. So, cause we got to wait a whole, another year for House of the Dragon. What's going on? And then this show took off. It's like,

It's been one of the most successful shows on HBO. It's gotten that episode four has one of the highest ratings of an episode on IMDB, historically of a TV show. I mean, this is a great show and I watch it because the buzz was just, I'm like, okay, it's got the buzz, it's got the numbers, I'm gonna give it a try. And I'm so glad that they actually created this.

Steve Scarfo (23:18)
amazing

Jeff (23:32)
because it is different. It's smaller and we get this focus on Dunk and Egg and they're great odd couple. It's, you know, this giant Dunk and little egg, little egg on. Sorry, wait, spoiler. But it was a book, so you could find this out. Although this is the first time I'm getting surprised because I, like, I refuse to get that book.

Steve Scarfo (23:44)
He's teeny.

I mean again, this is one of those where... ⁓

So you get to live like I did during the Game of Thrones. It feels good, man.

Jeff (24:02)
I do. Now I know how it feels. ⁓ It's great.

It's great. they're odd couple. ⁓ Duncan is very earnest, but he's very simple. And ⁓ Egg has been clearly well-educated. He knows a lot.

They're such polar opposites, their size, the way they talk, their approach, their experiences, everything is polar opposites. And this odd couple dynamic works great. Highly recommend that you get into this show. I know, I don't want to get into your message to a new generation or, so, but yeah.

Steve Scarfo (24:40)
one if you're

Yeah, not yet, not yet. So ⁓

I agree and it's funny because ⁓ they really are at opposite ends of everything. So I like that observation because Dunk, he's like tries to be the hard ass. He's like, will, I'll clout you in the ear. And then he's like, you want some bread? You know what I He's definitely, I think the big brother, little brother dynamic is a perfect description for it.

Jeff (25:10)
I ⁓

Steve Scarfo (25:16)
⁓ You covered most of it, but I really do enjoy this dynamic between the two of them and how that dynamic ⁓ in episodes three and four really end up affecting everyone around them, right? It's, ⁓ God, again, I'm trying not to be spoilery. Just watch the damn show, it's great. But anyway, because of who they both are,

in that episode, especially in episode four, you start to see stuff shift. And it's not just, it's because of his earnestness, because of him being the good person that he is, because he's simple and good and honorable. Everyone around him that's getting ready for this tournament starts to shift and alliances break and are remade. yeah, I think there's a lot to that more than the fun, humorous parts to it.

And it's

Jeff (26:17)
Yeah, and I'm so

glad and I I've since heard that this is in the book, the same reveal that who egg really is. And the thing is, it's not much of a spoiler. You write it because we're not as clueless and innocent as Duncan. Like he's clearly not from Flea Bottom. He's clearly not a stable boy. He clearly is educated and not who he's like, you know, and then he like

Steve Scarfo (26:39)
Yes.

Jeff (26:47)
right away when the the Tigarian royal retinue shows up in town, runs away. So I mean, you know who he is. Like the clues are there. And I'm so glad that that it was revealed in the third episode so that you don't like that. That's not where the dramatic tension is, because that's what I was afraid of. Like the dramatic tension is Duncan's never going to figure out. Duncan's just not going to know.

Steve Scarfo (26:54)
Yeah, there's, there's, there's hints.

Jeff (27:16)
Like who egg really is?

Steve Scarfo (27:18)
No, and it is good because they don't, they don't, he's very simple, but they don't make him stupid. He's not well educated, but he's not an idiot. So I agree. I'm glad that they didn't drag that out for five or six episodes, because it would have been frustrating to be like, you made me wait this long to find out that where we were suspicious in episode two, to your point. But I think it's time to...

Jeff (27:24)
Right.

Steve Scarfo (27:45)
bring this back to the original Game of Thrones and ⁓ take it to court.

I'm trying, it's not going.

Okay, so we're going to do a different approach this time, but usually we take two sides of one coin and we debate it as you would in any good court system situation. This time, we're going to go toe to toe and we're going to talk about in the original Game of Thrones, I guess books or show. I'm going to stick with the show since I didn't read them. Whose character had the best character arc? ⁓

I'll give you the choice. You want to start or you want me to start.

Jeff (28:31)
I'll start. So at the end, you decide listener or viewer, who did you agree with more? My contention of the best character arc in the Game of Thrones TV show, and I imagine it'll be similar in the book, but we just don't know, ⁓ is Arya Stark. So Arya is this kind of, you know,

Steve Scarfo (28:52)
Hm-hm.

Jeff (28:59)
Tomboy wants to be a knight or a fighter. She's not interested in all the girly stuff, but she's just a little kid. Older siblings, they humor her, but maybe find her a little bit annoying and perplexing. Certainly Sansa finds her tomboyishness annoying.

⁓ she gets her way. She becomes the warrior that she wants to be. And ⁓ she becomes no one. she has hours and hours of training with a variety of fighters. She's got Soryo who trains her, Yorin, ⁓ even Tywin ⁓ in his own way, not as training him as a fighter, but she's a cup bearer for him.

Steve Scarfo (29:35)
Hehehehe

Jeff (29:54)
⁓ The Hound as well and the Faceless Men is her masterclass where she becomes like an assassin essentially. And ⁓ she did learn her needlework because her Valerian sword, I thought it was Valerian, but her sword needle, you know, she gets to learn to use that. And eventually she gets the dagger from Bran.

who can't use it and it's the dagger she uses to the ⁓ the Night King. Thank you. Kills the Night King with that dagger. And so she is key to the success of staving off the White Walkers from the north. So I say Arya comes a long way and achieves her dreams.

Steve Scarfo (30:32)
The Night King.

Jeff (30:52)
what makes her have the best character.

Steve Scarfo (30:57)
Solid argument. Now I'm tell you why it's not the best one. Aha, aha! All right, that was gonna be my first choice, but you got to choose first, so I agree, Ari had a great arc. I'm gonna challenge the definition of best because this was not a positive journey, but to me was one of the best arcs in terms of.

Jeff (30:59)
Thank you. Ooh, okay. ⁓

Steve Scarfo (31:25)
the trajectory that this character goes and this is for Daenerys Targaryen. So Daenerys starts off very meek and becomes this fighter for justice through fire quite literally and being ⁓ beat up by her brother and taken care of, not taken care of, but taken advantage of by Khal Drogo. ⁓ She becomes the strong willed woman.

who is the mother of dragons and she gives you this sense. Now, this is the TV show version as Jeff pointed out, who knows what the book will say, ⁓ but.

Jeff (32:04)
The

book, think, would prove you correct. I think she does have, but the TV show? sorry.

Steve Scarfo (32:09)
So,

so this version is what I know. And so she has this trajectory of a hero's journey and she's heading towards this hero's journey. But throughout the entire series, we hear about Egon the Terrible, who was the ⁓ last ⁓ Targaryen to hold the...

the throne who destroyed, like he was the destroyer because he went mad. ⁓ The Mad King. so Daenerys looks like she's gonna avoid all this right up until season eight when she starts to get a little more snappy. And then at the end, of course, the ending that pissed me and probably half the country off ⁓ was that change. Now I said it's not good.

Jeff (32:41)
King.

Steve Scarfo (33:04)
in terms of I liked it, but it was, if you look at the trajectory of her character arc, it was the most dramatic change from start to finish because she went from meek and mild through strength into becoming a conqueror for good to I'm just gonna light the entire city on fire.

So that's why I think hers was a really solid character arc. Now, you might have hated the arc, but it was there. So was Jeff right? Was I right? It was me. But write in, tell us. ⁓ Let us know what you think. If you think we're both idiots and it's really Sansa for some reason, tell us that too, because she actually had a pretty good arc too. But the dark, do you know what's funny? I just watched Dark Phoenix today. ⁓

Jeff (33:46)
Dark Sansa.

Steve Scarfo (33:53)
with the same actress there whose name I can't think of. But ⁓ yeah, let us know. ⁓ We like these random reviews. This will probably end up being a longer one than our normal, but. ⁓

rate, review, like, subscribe, tell us we're awesome, but jump in and have fun with us.

Jeff (34:17)
All right, my basement treasure today is from 2013. So only going back 13 years and it's Game of Thrones adjacent. It is a song of ass and fire from South Park. And it is on streaming on the Paramount platform. It's from season seven, episode eight. It's actually a three-parter. So you would have to watch.

Steve Scarfo (34:25)
You

Ha ha.

Jeff (34:46)
Season 17, episode seven, eight and nine. It's trilogy. It's the Black Friday trilogy. And the concept is that the children of Southbarger split between Xbox ones and PlayStation fours, which is better. So, and which one to get on Black Friday. And they want, they think we all need the same console. So we're all playing the same game the same way. Anyway, so it's their houses are battling it out.

And so in a song of ass in fire, which is the second one, ⁓ butters and Scott Malkinson, who has diabetes, go to George R.R. Martin's house because they need to know how it all ends because they plan on duplicating what however that ends with their Black Friday, you know, ⁓ win. ⁓ And when they get there,

George R.R. Martin essay. Because Scott Malkinson, he's got diabetes, needs food and he needs his pizza. And so George R.R. Martin, yeah, I got the pizzas ordered. And I can tell you all about the ending. And ⁓ it cuts to three hours later and he's got a chorus singing, the chorus of wieners. And they're singing about flaccid penises. And it's all about all the flaccid penises in Game of Thrones, yes.

Steve Scarfo (36:12)
Is that where that came from?

Jeff (36:15)
And Butters is like, where's that pizza? Scott Malgsten's gonna pass out. ⁓ it's just three hours later, mind you. well, what'd you wanna order? Like, what are you talking about? You said they were coming. And that's the whole theme is like, they're never getting what they want from George R. Martin. All he wants to talk about is flaccid penises. the tie in here is because in the night of the seven kingdoms.

For no good reason, Sir Arlen's schlong is out there. For no reason. The only thing I hope is that they use the same prosthetic from Hodor in season two. He's naked. The naked Hodor is like giant schlong.

Steve Scarfo (36:52)
my god, it's...

I do have to say I haven't looked it up. wonder if that was actually a prosthetic. Cause if it wasn't, that's impressive.

Jeff (37:10)
It was,

I did look it up. They used a 10 inch prosthetic. Hodor's, the actor says it was 16, but I don't know if that's true. ⁓ It's thick and veiny. There's no good reason for it. Now, because other scenes, I was thinking because, because of a song in Ass and Fire made this song about flaccid wieners in Game of Thrones.

Steve Scarfo (37:15)
I got this.

It was ridiculous. It's what it was.

No, there's no story. There's nothing served by that.

Jeff (37:39)
that maybe they'd avoid that, because like, maybe we do show a lot of that. And they leaned in. So at first I'm like, well, it's just like someone's bathing or whatever, male nudity, whatever. But the shot of Sir Arlen coming out of the brothel or whatever he was and just whipping it out there for an extended pee was unnecessary.

Steve Scarfo (37:57)
Yeah. Yes. Cause the first one is dunk.

The first one you see is dunk. So for those of you who haven't seen it yet, that's why Jeff's so focused on the second one. Well, now the first one made sense. Yeah.

Jeff (38:08)
I'm sorry, spoiler alert. So anyway, hilarious episode. Hilarious,

even if that's the only one you watch. Or if you go to YouTube and look up Chorus of Weeners, South Park, it's also good.

Steve Scarfo (38:22)
Of course,

and it's funny. It is. I will say I don't have a really good basement treasure. I guess I'm going to lean in on episode one, because for me, and I guess was it 2011, we said ⁓ that was a turning point because I had heard of the books. ⁓ I wasn't reading a ton and when I was I was probably still reading all the Robert Jordans. ⁓ And there's just certain things I've never gotten into. And this was one of them as a book. So when it hit,

that first episode, those first five or 10 minutes that we talked about earlier, those to me were like, holy shit moments. Like, I can't believe they just did that. Like the, let's just, mean, just with the incest alone, you're like, wait, they're brother and sister and they're up here fucking, that's weird. And then there's a kid and you go, God, they got caught. What are they gonna do? Well, they're gonna try to kill the kid. Wait, what? ⁓ So to me that was, ⁓ it kind of shook me, if you will, and in a good way.

because ⁓ all night long, I wasn't gonna go that far, it was, but it was, to me, was sort of a turning point again, because of everything else that we've talked about, but it was, wow, this is a really interesting point of view. They're not pulling any punches. I said it about like ⁓ the first few seasons of The Walking Dead. were no lines they weren't gonna cross, and I think that's what I liked. It was shocking, and it was, ⁓

Jeff (39:23)
shook you all night long.

Steve Scarfo (39:52)
exciting. So, but that's how it started.

Jeff (40:03)
Yeah, so started with the books, which I know you are not reading, but the books from 96 until 2011. They were, we had a Game of Thrones, The Clash of Kings, Storm of Swords, A Feast of Crows, and A Dance of Dragons in 2011, coinciding with the release of the show came out, no, came out in 2011 or yeah, 2011.

Steve Scarfo (40:32)
2011.

Jeff (40:33)
Um, and so the, the first two books, night, the first three books, 96, 99, 2000. And we initially wrote it. He was that first book came out. was supposed to be a trilogy. And then it just keep kept growing. Um, I think sometimes I wonder if an author is stretching something out cause it's successful, but I honestly think Georgia her Martin, his, his.

⁓ World building is like JR Tolkien. He's just like so into it that I think he's you know, he's creating a really this history this What is it like 8,000 year history and he's just written so much about it thought so much about it I still I think I think You know, I think he

Steve Scarfo (41:19)
yeah.

Jeff (41:30)
He probably thought he'd have the books released in time for when season seven and eight came out. I know six, yeah, six, seven and eight. Yeah. Cause he, cause each he's only written five books and they, so apparently cause that, so season six. ⁓ now we should have looked this up season six, I guess, didn't have source material for it or.

Steve Scarfo (42:00)
when did they start splitting?

Jeff (42:03)
Yeah, in any case, ⁓ season seven and eight were definitely off the rails. mean, seven wasn't as bad, but.

Steve Scarfo (42:05)
Yeah.

So for the record,

I just to get the answer to that question, I just put Game of Thrones when did and the first autocomplete was they run out of books. So we are far from the first one. Book six.

Jeff (42:24)
Ha ha ha ha.

Yeah, season six, didn't.

Steve Scarfo (42:30)
no,

end of season four is where the train overshoots the books. That's how they read. Yeah. So, yeah, this is...

Jeff (42:35)
Well, that's not correct because there's five books.

all right. So season six actually was really good then. So that I thought that they started to lose the plot pretty much right away. Season seven and eight were the most disappointing. Season eight just being the most disappointing. they're really what made it for me most disappointing. And we'll talk more about the epic fail was it was rushed like they took their time.

just like ⁓ George R. Martin's taken his freaking time. They took their time and they did make some changes because these books are huge. And so even with their format on HBO, it'd be hard to have everything in all those episodes. know, ⁓ the Dance of Dragons is the longest book, but that, you know, they were already, you know,

Steve Scarfo (43:10)
Hehehehe

Jeff (43:35)
diverging a little bit and losing some of the content, I guess I should say. ⁓ And they could have kept it going. But I think I read somewhere that the ⁓ who is it? ⁓ The the showrunners, they ⁓ they they. Yeah, they they wanted to move on. That's what I read that they they were kind of done. really?

Steve Scarfo (43:51)
the directors.

D.B. Weiss and David Beninoff. I just looked it up.

Well, they had been offered Star Wars, right? They were offered

some, I think they were offered some big IP. That might be spreading rumors. This might be a Canon Connect correction at some point. We haven't been, we haven't done one those in a while.

Jeff (44:06)
⁓

Steve Scarfo (44:15)
Yeah, I believe they were offered another major ⁓ property. they were trying to move on. ⁓ so they were that that was one of the criticisms at the time. These two guys who who had spent so much time building this world and doing all the good that they did, they basically said, fuck it, we have to have a big ending and we have to have it in one season.

Jeff (44:20)
You're right, Star Wars. Yep.

Yeah, there it is.

Yeah, there it is. Yeah.

Steve Scarfo (44:44)
⁓

And so, you know, widely panned the ending of this ⁓ season, of this series rather, ⁓ for good reason. It's not a satisfying ending at all. ⁓ But, yeah.

Jeff (45:02)
Yeah. But save it for the epic fail. House

of the Dragon was next, ⁓ which I know you're not as enamored with, right?

Steve Scarfo (45:14)
So I'll tell you this. ⁓ I love this story of Dunk in A at Seven Kingdoms. I almost didn't watch it because, and I might go back at some point, I watched the first few episodes of ⁓ The House of the Dragon, thank you. So here's my problem with it. ⁓ And it's kind of a stupid problem, I admit that fully.

Jeff (45:32)
House of the Dragon.

Steve Scarfo (45:41)
but the first few episodes tell the story from one point of view. And then like episode four is 40 years in the future or 20 years in the future, whatever, it's a huge time jump. So it's the same characters, but they're played by different actors because they're trying to tell the story in chunks. And I kind of get it from the story perspective, but it so turned me off. ⁓

I have heard that it's really good and I know it's got great actors and great performances. And now that I've liked what I'm watching, maybe I'll go back and give it a second watch. But yeah, I couldn't watch it at first because I was so, it was such a jarring thing to me that I did not know was coming.

Jeff (46:24)
Yeah, so I see that and it does like those huge time jumps are it's hard to follow because you we go from Game of Thrones where like a lot of it was told you had taken that whole journey from Winterfell down to like it was taken its time.

Steve Scarfo (46:45)
so slow. I you saw every day of the journey. You

every day of the journey.

Jeff (46:51)
And so, and so it was weird to get this new, you you're all excited. How's the dragon? Okay, we're getting maybe some redemption here. Maybe something will, will work again. And, ⁓ and then you're maybe just getting invested in the characters. Then it's 40 years later. Like what, what, what is going on here? So I, I agree with that, but.

Steve Scarfo (47:13)
Yes.

Jeff (47:19)
I would get back, I suggest you get back into it because they were just trying to get some ⁓ backstory out of the way, but told and not just in text or someone's tale, but you actually get to see it because it's slowed down now. In season two, we're not having those huge time jumps. We're now taking the time to tell the story.

Steve Scarfo (47:45)
What's the next season? it two or three?

Jeff (47:47)
and then threes coming out next year.

Steve Scarfo (47:50)
So is two out now?

Jeff (47:51)
Two is out now, yep.

Steve Scarfo (47:51)
okay.

Yeah, I'm gonna, I'll have to dive back in now, especially because I'm reinvigorated with the world of Westeros ⁓ through the eyes of Dunkin' so.

Jeff (47:52)
Yep. Get back into it. It's good.

Yeah.

100%, I think that Dunkin' Egg have, it surprised me so much. I was not expecting to like this show as much as I do. I love that it's a smaller tale. And I know, you you're gonna talk about the music in a critical hit, but I love that even the music's smaller. It's like, it's got a fiddle. It's like what you'd hear in a pub instead of this big grand orchestra.

Steve Scarfo (48:36)
Orchestra.

Can I just say that I can't say the names Dunkin' Egg without thinking about a sandwich from Dunkin' Donuts. I know it's stupid. So don't make fun of me because I'm making fun of myself. But that's every time I'm like Dunkin' Egg like really this is what you're going with.

Jeff (48:44)
Nice.

You

Well, I have a quick message if you don't mind.

Steve Scarfo (48:55)
All right, let's,

no, no, I don't mind at all. Let's tell these people what to think.

Jeff (49:04)
All right, my quick message is for everybody, all generations, if you were into Game of Thrones and then either season eight killed it for you and House of the Dragon was too chaotic for you or you didn't even bother watching it because you season eight really ruined things, Game of Thrones for you. Watch Night of the Seven Kingdoms. You don't have to watch House of the Dragon at all. In fact, you could watch this without having watched any Game of Thrones ever.

You're probably not listening to this podcast or watching us if you hadn't, but seriously, this is a great show. And had it been released on its own, I really do think it would still be have the same buzz and have, you know, the same viewership. It would have maybe taken a little bit longer to get there when maybe it had 7.4 million out of the gate or whatever it had. the, but yeah, that's my message.

We want more of Dunk and Egg. They've already been approved for season two. our, you know, what we're encouraging you to do doesn't affect that. But trust me, you're going to like it. If you're into Game of Thrones before, come back.

Steve Scarfo (50:18)
Yeah, the only thing I'll tag on the end of that is ⁓ even if you never watched an episode of Game of Thrones at all ⁓ to Jess point, you don't need it. This is such a small story that the bad guys of the story are very obviously the bad guys. The good guys are very obviously the good guys. You don't need to know the history. If you do, it helps and it makes the story a little richer because the names Baratheon and Targaryen, like all of these names mean a little bit more if you know them, but you don't need them.

So even if you've never watched one episode of Game of Thrones, you're really more of a sci-fi guy or girl, go watch. ⁓ Go watch. It's just a really well done show. ⁓ But we're running long, so we're gonna drop into some hits and fails.

All right. ⁓ I'm going to start with the hit and Jeff, you said it before. The the it's a two parter sort of not really long. So the original music, it's one of those themes that the orchestra, like I can't hear it without evoking mostly good memories, mostly good memories. ⁓ But

in Night of the Seven Kingdoms, they do, they do like a minified version. They make you think it's gonna crescendo, but it's just kinda there. It's the same tune, it's the same notes, but it's so much more downplayed. I think as just an audio connection, usually you do the music stuff, but as an audio connection between the two shows, I thought it was a brilliant move.

Jeff (51:42)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Scarfo (51:58)
to keep the same theme, but just adjust it a little bit. It's recognizable. It's like when somebody does a cover of someone else's song, ⁓ or if they do like a hard rock version ⁓ of a ballad, you go, wow, that's cool. It's still the same song. I hear the same song, but this is a new interpretation. And I just, I loved it.

Jeff (52:16)
Yeah, I love, and I love how they kept

it small, like I said, like a fiddle and sounds like you're in a tavern. And that's one of the great things about this show. But I'll go back and take a listen, but I'm pretty sure that, and I loved how they did this, is that the original theme kicks in at the end of episode four with the trial of seven is.

like the horses are there or something, it's closer. Yeah, nice.

Steve Scarfo (52:45)
It's bigger, it's closer, it's much closer, yeah.

So, you have a fail.

Jeff (52:53)
Yeah, and we've already talked about it. I know we're running

along. We like to these ⁓ just about an hour or less. And ⁓ so the epic fail is season eight. It's so bad. And it's because of how hastily, how hastily they did it. Because the Mad Queen ending of Daenerys, I'm not upset that she became a Mad Queen. It's in her blood. It makes they could have done it and just.

Steve Scarfo (53:07)
So bad.

Jeff (53:22)
But even I think it would have taken like two more episodes just and made it make sense. That's all. Just make it make sense. like they like what I loved about this series is that it was smart and they're like as much as you could be bothered by the red wedding and things like that. It wasn't because it didn't make any sense. Like it was brutal.

but that brutality had a purpose and a reason. The brutality of Daenerys burning the city and flipping out the way she did made zero sense.

Steve Scarfo (54:01)
Well, and you said two more episodes and I do disagree with that. I think it needed, I think they needed two seasons to show that to keep pace with the way they told the rest of the story. They needed a ninth season, which I think is originally what the plan was before Weiss and Benioff decided they wanted to fuck off over to George Lucasville. They were supposed to do a ninth season. Had they taken Daenerys's story and stretched it to your point and shown

Jeff (54:09)
Yeah.

Yeah, you're right.

Steve Scarfo (54:30)
Because they showed a lot of stress for her throughout the previous few seasons. Again, make it make sense. I agree with you. But I think I think two seasons and then at the end of nine, if you see that tear and you see this arc complete, because as much as I love her arc, it was like, up, up, up, up, up. And then it just took a straight fucking shitter. I'm sorry. I'm swearing like a madman this episode. This has to be an ex. But it didn't it didn't dive. It just shot into the wall.

or the floor. How do you want to look at it? I didn't like it.

Jeff (55:01)
Yeah,

it's just crazy because after you made that very compelling point in geek court that Daenerys overcame so much and she made the right choices, the good choices, the nice choices. She became heroic and not just a victim and she did that herself. She saved herself and then...

Steve Scarfo (55:27)
Yeah.

Jeff (55:29)
to make her the villain is okay if you do it right. you're right, another season would have made even more sense, just those things that chip away at who she was. And because she's trying to do the right thing and ⁓ Egg, I think ⁓ in this new story has that same goodness to him that if enough crappy things happen to him now, like maybe he'll make a different choice.

But I know he ends up not being a mad king, but I mean, like.

Steve Scarfo (56:04)
So

he's not the egg that becomes the Mad King though, because the Mad King is an egg on. He's... yeah.

Jeff (56:07)
No. Yeah, that's his descendant. Yeah. He,

⁓ he stays a good person, his time with Duncan and, and they continued together his understand. Sorry. Spoilers. So

Steve Scarfo (56:23)
They'll be alright. ⁓

Jeff (56:25)
Sorry. Anyway, not

all the Targaryens are crazy. Some of them are good people.

Steve Scarfo (56:31)
Yes.

Just to wrap up on the Daenerys thing. I wish if they had done it right she would have been a tragic figure instead of a crazy bitch right she went she snapped and went crazy and You know, that was the harder way to say it but I wanted to see her be an anti-hero like she had this great heroic arc, but then you know, whatever the

Holes of her life made her more tragic. I didn't want her to be crazy and outraged. I wanted her to fall. I wanted to see her reach for the stars and fail, and that's a tragedy. And so her failure becomes sadness instead of annoyance. Because to your point, they rushed it and it became annoying. But.

Jeff (57:25)
I love

that they didn't get to do Star Wars after all.

Steve Scarfo (57:28)
Yes. So screw you

guys. But all right. So ⁓ original geek podcast at gmail.com original geek podcast.com check us out social media. TikTok and Instagram and YouTube are our big outlets. ⁓ Sorry X not coming your way. I just too annoying to play on there. But definitely check us out everywhere. Right in we are going to I believe be going to a couple of local conventions. It's in February right now where

There's a couple coming up in March. So Northeast Comic Con with collectibles in Boxwell, Massachusetts. We'll probably take a run at PAX East as well. So hopefully you guys are out there. We'll get to see you guys. And we're going to be doing a giveaway coming up soon. I don't know when. We're working on it. ⁓ We'll give away one of our t-shirts to some lucky winner, and we'll have some fun with that. So also check out all the merch on ⁓

website and yeah watch Night of the Seven Kingdoms

Jeff (58:30)
All right.

Yes, take care, OGs.