OnGuard - For the Ummah, For the Truth
OnGuard is a brand new podcast hosted by Ustadh Hamza Tzortzis focusing on Islam21c's transformative campaigns.
OnGuard - For the Ummah, For the Truth
He “Un-Gayed” Himself: the Man the LGBT Lobby Wished Didn’t Exist (ft. Ali Jaffery)
When Ali Jaffery first experienced same-sex attraction at age 12, he began an 11-year journey of silence, shame, and self-loathing. Growing up in a conservative Muslim family with limited male mentorship, he felt fundamentally different and broken—convinced that his feelings made him unworthy in the eyes of Allah.
This profound conversation reveals the transformative moment when Ali began dismantling what he calls "the identity paradigm"—the false notion that experiencing same-sex attraction makes someone inherently different or forces them to choose between their faith and their feelings.
Ali articulates a powerful alternative framework grounded in Islamic tradition: differentiating between having desires (which aren't sinful) and acting upon them (which involves choice). Through deep reflection on the Qur’an, he discovered that the divine message wasn't about condemning people with certain attractions but rather calling everyone toward taqwa (God-consciousness) regardless of their internal struggles.
The healing journey Ali describes involves brotherhood, healthy masculine connections, and psychological insights that reveal how his sexualised attractions masked deeper needs for acceptance and belonging. Most movingly, he shares how honesty about his struggles led to a fulfilling marriage with a woman who responded to his disclosure with remarkable compassion…
For anyone navigating the complex intersection of faith and so-called “sexuality”—or simply trying to understand how Islamic teachings can address contemporary challenges with both compassion and principle—this episode offers rare wisdom. Ali's story demonstrates that neither shame-filled silence nor identity-based surrender are the only options, showing instead a third way: how struggle itself can become a pathway to spiritual growth and authentic relationships.
In this episode, Ali and the host Hamza Andreas Tzortzis discuss:
- First experiencing same-sex attraction at age 12 while lacking masculine role models and mentorship
- Carrying the secret for 11 painful years due to shame, fear and self-loathing
- Finding the courage to speak openly in counselling sessions at university
- Distinguishing between having desires and acting upon them – a crucial Islamic principle
- Discovering that healthy male relationships and brotherhood were what he truly craved beneath sexualised attractions
- Reframing the Quranic story of Prophet Lūt عليه السلام as calling people toward taqwa
- Building a successful marriage based on complete transparency and shared spiritual values
- Creating support systems for Muslims with same-sex attraction to find community without shame
- Emphasising that Allah judges actions rather than feelings we don't control
- Offering a third path beyond both denial and identity-based approaches to same-sex attraction
…and more.
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That was an epic epic podcast. It took me three minutes to just open my mouth and say I like men.
Speaker 2:Bro, this is so inspirational, it's unbelievable. I nearly broke down. I was fed lies.
Speaker 1:This world says you're gay, you're inherently different, and I had to break this identity paradigm because it's so corrosive, so corrosive so I hated myself.
Speaker 2:And this lasted 11 years, oh my god, subhanallah, that's that moved me actually, because when we're growing up as children, we usually realise three things.
Speaker 1:But I had a calling from that day to do something for the Muslim community, because all the secrets there it's all in the Quran.
Speaker 2:It says so this is quite heroic, bro, I have to admit, and this is a sign of divine love you know, the first time I told her about the same-sex attraction, her response was that is so beautiful.
Speaker 2:What she probably saw in you was a real man, bro, because a real man deals with his. I think this is going to be impactful for many, many people. In this impactful episode, ali Jafari shares his deeply personal journey of navigating same-sex attraction. He unpacks the tools, principles and divine guidance that helped him resist the urge to sexualize his desires and reveals how a taqwa-centered approach transformed his path. As-salamu alaykum, as-salamu alaykum, so good to see you. It's easy Good to have you here. May Allah bless you. May Allah bless you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for coming and coming all this way and giving us time to share some of your personal and theological and spiritual insights. Before we formally start and ask you a question, I just want to affirm or express something which is very important You're a hero, right, a spiritual hero, alhamdulillah. You have written amazing insights Concerning your struggles, if you like, or how to deal with same-sex attraction, and I think this is going to be an amazing podcast and I think people are going to come to the same conclusion that you're a spiritual hero the way you are able to reframe these issues and have an an allah-centric approach, a taqwa-centric approach, as you mentioned, concerning these issues. So the first question I have is for you, my dear brother, is can you describe the moment, the first moment or the period in your life when you started to realize you had same-sex attraction, and what was going through your heart and mind at that time?
Speaker 1:Well, thank you for the very kind introduction. Alhamdulillah, praise be to Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala. I vividly remember it was probably 11, 12, you know, when you're going through that puberty stage and so on and I had my first same-sex attraction. Now I knew that I felt different from the boys from a very young age. So I grew up with mostly sisters, so I had, you know, a mom and sisters. Dad worked two jobs. He had to work that to sustain the family, so I was pretty much surrounded by the feminine. So when I grew up I went to school and these boys were quite rough and they were like playing and I was like, well, no one's played with me like that. No one's had you know kind of football. No one's taught me how to play football or cricket or I don't know what these things are. So I basically felt different from a very young age and a lot of people say, oh, I was born this way, right, because as early as they remember, they have this feeling that they were different. As they remember, they have this feeling that they were different. So what was familiar to me was femininity and what was different to me was masculinity, because my elder brother is 13 years older than me, so I couldn't really connect with him at that point as well. So I didn't really have an active male mentor when I was growing up.
Speaker 1:Fast forward to age 12, where I saw my PE teacher and I was like, wow, this guy is really, you know, he's assertive with his masculinity, he knows like he's not ashamed of his body. I used to cover my body up. I wasn't, you know, comfortable with it and I was like, oh, I see this confidence, you know this mysteriousness in him and I was attracted to that and I was going through puberty at the time. I'd also moved from Pakistan. My family had moved I was 12 at the time from Pakistan to England and, you know, suddenly complete culture change. You have blonde, white, you know, kind of blue eyed people and I'm thinking, oh my God, this is completely different, you know. So I had a lot of identity crises going on at that time at age 12. My first same-sex attraction was my PE teacher.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's very interesting. So you mentioned about your dad having two jobs and your sense of, or your understanding of, masculinity, or the lack of having masculine role models by virtue of the economic situation, you had to work two jobs and there was a disconnect with your older brother because he's 13 years older than you. So your, your perception of masculinity how did that kind of shape? Do you think that that was critical in shaping your understanding of, well, your same-sex attraction? Yeah, that critical and maybe unpack that a little bit more absolutely so.
Speaker 1:When I, when I grew up, um, mum was a hero, right, because she was present, she, she knew what my uh friends names were, she was involved, whereas my dad, that wasn't a bad father, it's just the economic situation as, as you said, that he had to kind of, and I was the youngest of five. So you know, the younger one isn't going to get that much attention because it's left on the others too. So it wasn't like he was intentionally. You know he did still used to give me love and and so on. Uh, but I think I connected, a part of me, connected more to my sisters, because that was kind of the world that I knew. You know, like if I, if we were tv, I would watch what they would watch because I was younger, or if they would discuss something. So my world was very feminine. And you know, looking back at it, what could I have done? I couldn't have done anything. It was, you know, looking back at it, what could I have done? I couldn't have done anything. It was, you know, there wasn't an influence there.
Speaker 1:And when I started the work, the therapy, I had a lot of anger towards my father. I had anger towards you know, but then I'm an adult now, I'm a parent now and I can see the economic difficulties that fathers have to state. So I have a more rounded view of it where I'm thinking you know what this might be something that God wanted me to have. He wanted me to travel with this and have that sense of you're going to grow up without a really male mentorship present my dad. Sometimes he would get angry, he would be angry. He wasn't physically abusive, but sometimes he was verbally abusive to my mum, and my mum didn't used to say anything, she just used to be quiet. She had sabr. So I saw the world from my mum's eyes, you know, and it's a really skewed way of looking at it, but because she was more involved I favoured her At that time.
Speaker 2:I kind of favoured her more. Well, these are actually very mature insights, bro, very inspirational. You have a very kind of holistic, rounded understanding of your past, which is quite remarkable, to be honest.
Speaker 1:I've done a lot of work.
Speaker 1:A lot of work figuring out why, why? Why did I so against masculinity when I was growing up? But for me there was no male mentorship. That was a significant male mentor that was present for me in my life, that was actively interested. You know that say oh Ali, you're handsome, Mashallah, you have a great body, You're handsome. Needed that positive affirmation coming from, because I'm a child, I can't give it to myself, right? I needed someone saying, no, you can do it, you know. Or someone to teach me cricket, or someone to teach me football or whatever it is. I needed that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always say real men elevate other men and we even lack that these days sometimes, you know, but that's another topic. So you're 12 years old. How long did this kind of same sex attraction but from the point of view that you didn't really express it to anyone, you didn't tell anyone about these feelings how long did that last for?
Speaker 1:well, um, first, when I experienced, like, oh, I'm attracted to my PE teacher, like what's, what's, what's happening. And, uh, it was weird because, um, you know, I, I, I didn't understand at the time what what was happening. And I remember going into Google back then, right, writing men like men. Because I didn't have a word for it, I didn't know what it, what it meant. And then internet being internet, came up with images, came up with pornography, and I, that was the oh okay, so this is what men like, right. And because I didn't have a medium to ask someone, because I was so ashamed of it, to say I'm liking men, hang on, other men are liking women, I'm liking men. The only way I could do it was online, so I wrote it. These images came up and you know, it was at 12, later on, where I sexualized my attachment towards men. And then, when I realized that I was sexually attracted again, I'm going through puberty, you know, I remember going through my dad and saying, oh, there's, like, you know, changes going on, and you know he was just like oh yeah, it's fine, you're going through it, you know. And he's a doctor. So he was just like oh yeah, it's fine, you're going through it. He's a doctor, so he was just like it's okay, but I don't think I had to talk right and I think a lot of maybe people of our generation don't have that. You just grow up and you kind of either you find out through the internet or so on.
Speaker 1:I had a lot of shame, right. I come from a very conservative Muslim family, very religious both sides of my family very religious and the shame for me was not for myself, but if this went out, what would the reputation of the family be? You know like would people marry just because of me? People might not marry my sisters. I had this incredible weight where I thought, if this gets out, I don't really care about myself, but I care about my family and you know what would happen.
Speaker 1:And of course, I had shame towards myself because I was disgusted by the attraction. And when I read the Quran at the time and God had very strict, very, very strict words to say about it, I was like, oh my God, why do I have this? So I hated myself and I hated the attraction and I wanted for it to go away. I didn't want anyone to know. And this lasted 11 years, oh my god. So 11 years I did not tell a soul because I felt that there was something inherently wrong with me, something that was broken. Maybe I had done something wrong or maybe I was wrong. I had questioned my lineage. You know I'm a descendant from from the Prophet's lineage, maybe not, you know. I kind of really thought, you know, maybe there's something wrong with me, maybe this isn't right or something's happened and I had a lot of self-hate at that at that time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, so upon like 11 years. So that moved me actually, because I didn't experience anything like you. But you know, when we're growing up as children, we usually realize three things before the age of 18. Something's wrong. It could be anything, it could be desires, it could be, whatever the case may be. You realize something's wrong, then you realize you're alone to a certain degree, then you realize you don't belong to a certain degree, and those things are like kind of traumatic experiences for people growing up, and then you understand them through a particular lens that you developed, right.
Speaker 2:I had an experience where I was like, oh my God, something's wrong, you know, and I was only 11 or 12 years old and it was due to puberty, right. And now I'm laughing at it because it was a natural thing, it wasn't a big deal, but I didn't know at the time and it took me around two or three years or maybe more to actually come out of it, like, realize it wasn't a big deal, but I already suffered that trauma. And the reason what you just said caught me is because you said 11 years and I'm feeling that, bro, yeah, so this is quite heroic, bro, I have to admit you know it's. May Allah bless you, man, and this is a sign of divine love, you know, because you know the Prophet said that if Allah loves someone, he's going to test them right. So you know, subhanallah.
Speaker 2:So, okay, so you had self-hate and you had disgust. So when did you start to realize that there was a distinction between having the desire and actually manifesting it, practicing it? Because it looks like you've mixed everything together. That's right. Yes, and that's the trick of shaitan, isn't it? Yes, to actually, you know, dismantle you and make you feel, you know, disgusting and to make you feel that you're unworthy and to make you feel, you know, that you hate, that you should loathe yourself. Yeah, when? When was the moment and I'm assuming it's after those 11 years that you actually reached out to people or you started to? You know you had enough and you were to express yourself or connect with, maybe, brotherhood or someone who was learned, or whatever the case may be? Yeah, what was the? The outlet?
Speaker 1:yes, uh, very good question and alhamdulillah, great that. I think a lot of us relate to that, puberty years being an identity crisis for a lot of us. For me it was. I was in the middle year of my university, so we had like a, you know, like a sandwich year where you do a placement and I was studying engineering and engineering maths, which is very, very difficult. I'm a good mathematician, but engineering maths, which is very, very difficult. I'm a good mathematician, but engineering maths another level. So I had.
Speaker 1:My upbringing was such that because I was an academic, because I needed a way for people to like me, because I didn't like myself, so I became an academic to say, okay, mommy and daddy, like good grades, I'm going to be, you know, the A-star student I'm going to. I'm going to be like, uh, uh, people pleasing, basically, um, so I reached this point where I went into university and I could not perform as well as college as an A-star student and that broke me down because it was like, oh, I'm supposed to be the clever one, right, that's my identity. I built that identity up. That broke down. So I had half a year, like half year credits, to reset. I was doing my internship. It was the first time I was working, so that was kind of strenuous as well and I was learning to drive at that time as well, and also the first time I was away from, like family and stuff. I was in Cheltenham at the time and I remember driving and my instructor was like this you know those typical white men who are like a bit angry and they shout at you and you know like when you're driving, and he's really specific. So I was scared of him. He was a bloke, he was a bloke, typical bloke. He was a bloke, he was a bloke, typical bloke. And he said to me Ali, I don't know what's happening, but whatever I'm saying to you isn't going to your head. When he was trying to, you know, kind of teach me to drive.
Speaker 1:And I recognized at that point that something was mentally unstable in me, that I had reached a crisis in my life at that point where I was doing a lot of things I had a lot of like is my degree going to work? What is going to happen to my future? Because, remember, university is also the time when you're seeing couples. Right, you're shielded from it. From that age. At university, you're seeing, oh, there's couples. And then I was thinking what's going to happen to me, what's going to be my future? Now I'm not the clever boy because I'm flunking half of my university degree.
Speaker 1:And then I went into crisis and I did not know what to do. And then the only thing I searched on the university and they had a counselor, and so I booked a session with that counselor. I could not get myself to write down why I had put it, because there was so much shame. I could not say you know why I was seeing that counselor? Because and that's probably partly shame Maybe there was ego. Maybe there was ego in there as well, where I was thinking oh me checking in. You know, and I think for myself and a lot of men it takes a lot of courage to go into counseling going to therapy, you know it's like until things are really bad, right.
Speaker 1:But then I felt you know what I need to do it. And I remember going in that first session with that counselor sitting down and just breathing and thinking, oh my God, I'm here, I'm in counseling, and I was like looking at her and she was classic counselor pose, where she's kind of sitting forward leaning and she's trying to and she's saying how can I help? Because I put TBD in the thing where you're supposed to put why you're here To be disgusted, yeah. So it took me three minutes, and three minutes is long. It took me a long, long time to just open my mouth and say I like men, because I was disgusted, I had said it for 11 years, I was disgusted, I had said it for 11 years, I was disgusted by it. And as soon as I said I like men, and then she was like okay, this is what it is.
Speaker 1:And then when she contained me in that moment, I felt like, oh my God, like years of shame and years of just keeping it to myself and, oh my God, god's not just, you know, sent a lightning bolt and killed me because I'm sinful, right.
Speaker 1:So all of this kind of years of weight just came down and I just started crying because you know, it was tears of joy in a sense, to say I'm not this, this, this by myself. There is somebody else, who, who now knows, and you know, that was the um opening point for me to trust somebody else, um, and, and yeah, so I, I, um, I imagine, and I understand the weight that people now, when they come to me and they carry, it was me. Back then it just felt like, oh my God, I've told someone, it's no longer in my head anymore, it's out. It was scary. It was scary at the same time because the cat's out of the bag, I can't put it back in, but it was relieving at the same time, because I felt rahmah of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala at that moment that you know, you don't, you don't have to suffer alone.
Speaker 2:Yeah so you mentioned in your writings that Allah opened the door to healing. Yeah, dealing with the situation. So would that be? Was that the first door that was open?
Speaker 1:that was the first door, definitely, because, um, it was the first door was saying you know what? This is me, this is who I am, and if Allah gave me same sex attraction, you know, or develop circumstances where I would develop same sex attraction, then I need to own it.
Speaker 1:I need to say Hi, I'm Ali, I have same sex attraction. I can't run away from my reality and I think that moment of trust, of just saying it's okay for me to be vulnerable, it's okay for me to say the truth, it's okay to bare my soul in front of this person, I think that first step was very, very healing, which is why now I can, I'm speaking in front of you, I'm speaking publicly, of course, very brief uh, but it was because I had realized that.
Speaker 1:You know what it's in time, I realized it. It's not my fault just just because I have the attraction isn't isn't my fault.
Speaker 2:So that was the first door. So if you can explain now what the healing journey looks like now. So you cry the cat's out the bag, yes, you're owning your circumstances, your same-sex attraction, and then now you start moving towards in your writings kind of a taqwa-centric approach. Yes, being God approach. Yes, being God-conscious. Yes, and making a distinction between the desire and identifying with it.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And how to navigate that space from a Allah-centric perspective. So that's the first door. Open the other doors for us now. What's the journey like?
Speaker 1:Yeah, us now. What was? What's the journey like? Yeah, so I mean, I started. So I was 23 when I, you know, kind of sought help from the counselor and then I started researching on homosexuality.
Speaker 1:I came across this book by joseph nicolosi which is called reparative therapy for the male homosexuality. I read it and I was like, oh, my God, this is me. This guy is describing me like I like covering up, I, uh, I have, uh, an overbearing mother and a distant father, you know. And uh, I was just reading it and I was like, oh, this, this describes me to the T? Uh, in terms of um, of distant father, finding shame in having the attraction and then using sexual enablement as a way to get out of it, that circle where I'm like, okay, I'm shamed, oh, what's pornography? So I feel better. And then I'm stuck in that cycle, that shame, or I'm thinking that the pornography is going to make me feel better, because that's how I've learned to connect with vulnerability. I want to see men as vulnerable. I'm not seeing, I'm seeing these as macho men and they don't have hearts right. So when I read that and I was like, oh, there's a science to it. Before that it was like all the world saying you're born this way or you go.
Speaker 1:I went to the GP here and they said there's not much we can do. This is you, and I refused to because I always had faith in Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala. So I refused to believe that God would give me something and then punish me for it, with me not having any control over it. You know it wasn't something. Yes, I watched a pornography. Yes, that was sinful, but the desires themselves, they were not sinful. I did not choose to have the upbringing or whatever situation that I grew up in. So part of me was challenging Allah, challenging my faith, and saying you know what. You need to help me in this, god. You need to help me because I don't know, and at that time there wasn't a lot of support from Muslims, there was nothing right. I had the understanding I saw the lectures that it was okay.
Speaker 1:There's a difference between the feeling and the identity. Right, which is really really good, which is a fantastic concept, which is saying, just because I feel something isn't, I am something right, and what you mentioned earlier with the West it has. We use the word gay and that means feeling, behavior and identity. So all three of these things are jam-packed into one word and in Islam, and the Quran specifically, only talks about act, right? It says لتتون الرجال you are going. It's explicit.
Speaker 1:It never, ever mentions the feeling, right, even when it says this is something you've مَا سَبَكُمْ أَهْدٍ مِنْ عَالَم. When it says this is something you've ما سبقكم أحد من العالمين. This is something that none had done. It was the act. They might have been people who felt attracted that way, but the Quran says that act of لِوَات anal penetration basically that's what it's saying that was only done at that time, right? So what happened at Lut's time was an attraction. They used a behavior to enact that attraction. That attraction could have been there before, right?
Speaker 1:And at the time I didn't know Arabic, so I used to read it and used to just think God hates gay people, right? So it took me a while that I read the verses and my whole approach now is the Quran. The Quran has such beauty, such hidden messages and, inshallah, I hope to write about this one day. There's so much you know. I could discuss about the Quran, how the Quran had really practical steps, but it was exactly that the door to healing was when I realized that God had made it a different identity. Okay, so I can still be Muslim and have same-sex attraction, but there was a room for me in Islam.
Speaker 1:But then the next question was how do I get married? I have the attraction, how do I manage it? Fine, I know that this is a test. How do I manage it? And there was where it was silence, yes, so explain that. So I used to go to Sheikh and he used to say what should I do? And they had different you know kind of techniques. So why don't you? Why don't you try? You know, kind of having speaking to women, I'm going to say my problem isn't really with women, it's more with men. And I couldn't find a place which could understand. You know what's the practical way for me to get out of same-sex attraction, way for me to get out of same-sex attraction.
Speaker 1:I attended this workshop. This was done by called People Can Change at the Nine. They're a faith-firming organization. It was called Journey into Manhood and subhanAllah. I was in Bristol at the time and this is an American company. And they said their next workshop is in southwest England. And I'm thinking hang on, this is an American company, how are they here? And this was recommended by Joseph Nicolosi, the guy, the book who I had read. So it was an ishara, right. So it was a clear ishara. You need to go there and yeah. So I said, ok, I'm going to register to this.
Speaker 1:And I did that workshop and for the first time in my life I saw people who had same-sex attraction. Now they were married, they had children and they had gone through it right, and this was mostly Christians who were doing the work right, and I was like subhanAllah, you know, allah has blessed the Christian community in the work that they're doing. And what was the healing in that? The healing part was oh, I can have the attraction, but I can still have the brotherhood and I can learn to be with the women.
Speaker 1:It's not like the attraction is going to come like this. You know, we're a very desire-centric world. So we say Learn to be with a woman. It's not like the attraction is going to come like this. We're a very desire-centric world. So we say, okay, I'm same-sex attracted, but I need to grow opposite-sex attraction because we're looking at it from a frame of reference of desire. But when we look at it from a frame of reference of God instead of a frame of reference of desire, we say well, god's going to hold my hand in this. If I have same-sex attraction, he's going to hold my hand to show me and bring me. We say Ahdina Saratul Mustaqeem, every time in prayer. What does that mean? That means he is going to hold my hand, he's going to take me out of it.
Speaker 1:So I had to have tawakkul, and I had tawakkul in Allah from a very, very young age, because I was like you know what? This is haqq? You know, I know this is haqq. If somebody shows me a haqq better than Islam, I will follow it. I had a surety. You know, I had my. I came from a very religious family, right? So I was assured. But God tested me with my sexuality. He was going to say is he going to come to me? I'm going to give him something. Is he going to come to me? So I said you know what these Christians? They're onto something, right, they're onto something.
Speaker 1:And when I saw the work and I was like you know what? This doesn't exist in the Muslim community I was so angry, so angry. It's like we have the best of creation, we have Prophet Muhammad. You know what are we doing? What are we doing? Why aren't we doing this work? Why aren't we vulnerable and saying you know what I have this sin? Why aren't we going up? And so I just felt that you know, well, let's do this work, let's just work on myself.
Speaker 1:But I had a calling from that day to do something for the Muslim community, because I was like I'm in the West, I'm in the UK, I have all these facilities, you know, and I'm finding it difficult. If I'm finding it difficult, what about the other people? You know I'd left Pakistan, I'd left that culture where it was really difficult to get help. I was in England now. So I'm thinking, okay, I'm in a more educated place, maybe I can get help. I was so angry at the community right.
Speaker 1:The doors for healing that opened up for me was just because I've sexualized something doesn't make me any less masculine, right? Just because an attachment has become sexualized, it doesn't mean I'm not a man anymore, right? Just means I've found a coping mechanism. God showed to me I didn't have mentorship when I was growing up. I really needed male mentorship.
Speaker 1:So after that workshop, I joined British Military Fitness and this is like ex-army people who train you. And I threw up on the first lesson and the guy was like I put money that this guy is not going to come back. And I came back and he was like, oh my God, you've come back. And I was like you don't know how determined I'm going to be. And I discovered I was good at running because, again, I had never done it. Nobody pushed me towards it. I had never challenged my body. I didn't have a coach who was saying, no, your body's fine, you'll be able to do it.
Speaker 1:So I needed to hold myself and say it's okay, the approach that I take is a self-compassion approach. I needed to have a lot of compassion on myself. I hated myself. I, like I said before, I didn't like myself. A lot of it was self-compassion. It's okay, I have the attraction. Yeah, I'm not perfect. You know, I slip up sometimes. It's's okay, keep getting back up. You know, in the story of Lut they say don't look back. It's a great metaphor Don't look back, just keep going. So I said, ya, allah, just keep, hold my hand, we keep going.
Speaker 1:So the doors of healing was mentorship. I needed to have a safe container, a brotherhood, and there was only one person that I needed to worry about and that was Allah, because he would take my affairs in his hand, if I trusted him blindly and I said you know what? I don't know what the next way is if someone's gonna marry me or something, but you gave me this, you're gonna get me out of it, right? Um? So I had that, that trust in allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, and that is what lute says.
Speaker 1:Lute alayhi salam, he says, he say he never mentions, even when he says right or um, the whole concept is purity, it's taqwa, it's not heterosexuality, that he's pulling them towards the women. He's saying what is something which is pure, something which is god-centric? Right, he calls them towards taqwa. He doesn't call them towards being straight. This is really really important, right? So I was understanding. Ah, okay, so the whole point of us is to have taqwa, and this is one of my journeys towards taqwa. Lut alayhi salam is a journey towards taqwa and that's what's wanted.
Speaker 1:So God doesn't care about my same-sex attraction. He doesn't care. He's saying I've given you the same-sex attraction as a test, but will you still obey me while you still have that attraction? That is what he's testing me. He's not saying I'm disgusting because I have the same sex attraction. He's saying look, there was an attachment and you've sexualized that attachment and that's all that's happened. It doesn't mean I'm any less of a man. It doesn't mean that I'm different. It just means that in my way for taqwa, god will test me with my sexuality.
Speaker 1:In Surah Al-Ankabut, where they say Do we really think that we can have the covenant with Allah and that Allah is not going to test us? No, he is going to test us and minju and poverty and things. No, he is going to test us and Minju and you know, with poverty and things. Well, I was tested by my sexuality and then, once I had that realization that the SSA wasn't the problem. The problem was how do I start trusting Allah? And then Allah started putting the things ahead of me. Allah, and then Allah started putting the things ahead of me. There's so many miracles. I can just tell you where. I would just pray and God would answer it, or God would bring somebody in my life, or you know, I think the biggest test was for me was understanding that God wanted to speak to me, you know, and he wanted me to struggle with this.
Speaker 1:And then, at some point, I wanted to speak to me, you know, and he wanted me to struggle with this. And then at some point I wanted to go public because I just felt nobody else in the community was doing it I, you know. You can Google my name now and my story comes up. I don't think that's what I would have chosen when I was younger. And it's like oh, what do you want to grow up when you're older? Oh, I want to be the person who's known for same-sex attraction. I don't think I had that in my mind, but I was like you know what, if God wants me to do this and I'm getting a clear message that God wants me to do it, do it. You know who am I? I'm nothing. You know I'm nothing. Then do it. And I did a podcast similar to this, where I outed myself to the community and, alhamdulillah, things have been things have built on since then.
Speaker 2:Wow, it's interesting. You said that Allah is not really judging the fact that you have the same sex attraction. The desire, yes, and what came to my mind was, if Allah judged us on our internal desires, we'd all be finished.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, we'd all be finished, bro, yes yeah, on guard is more than media.
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Speaker 2:So this is great. So what I want to do is let's focus on the brotherhood aspect. What role did brotherhood and maybe new masculine role models have to play in your healing process?
Speaker 1:Yes, very fantastic question. Again, I love the Quran because the Quran says وَأَخُوَهُمْ لُوتُ. It's so important, all the secrets there, it's all in the Quran. It says, says and their brother, loot in me like an Rasul. And Amin, right, trust me, I'm your bro, trust me, wow. So then he's saying oh, I'm, I'm your brother. Why is he saying that?
Speaker 1:Because same-sex attraction is built on the concept that this man, he's, he's better some way for me. Either he has muscles, he has confidence, something you cannot have attraction without differential right. There needs to be a difference. So if I'm like, oh, I really want to be that man, or actually, with same-sex attraction, I want to be affirmed by that man, I want that man to recognize me. Now, men with opposite same-sex attraction, they have the same thing. If there's somebody who's attractive or good, they want to get you know, they want that person to notice them. The only difference with men with same-sex attraction is they've sexualized it, so they're like I want his attention, but I want the sexual release as well.
Speaker 1:So the Prophet had the Day of Brotherhood, you know, between the Ansar and Muhajirun, and the concept of brotherhood in Islam is so deep, you know, even Yom Al-Jum jumah, in getting your brothers together. Our whole religion is built on the concept of, of brotherhood, you know. And that's because we we aren't creators which are meant to be alone. We're meant to be, uh, in a unit. We're meant to be in a congregation, we're meant to be an ummah, right, we're meant to have this. What you said, sense of belonging. Sense of belonging is so, so important. Where do I belong, you know? Who do I? When we say إِنَّا لِلَّهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ, okay, I know I'm from Allah, but I'm back to him, but while I'm identity, when we say, call yourself Muslim, well, what does that mean? What does that identity mean? And for me, I understood that that meant a brotherhood.
Speaker 1:Now, for me, when I did the journey into manhood, I had a circle of brotherhood men who had same-sex attraction, who I could share with. Right, it's the same with the LGBTQ community. They say, oh, these people are gay, they share with us, they have something common, they have a brotherhood. So I had to first work on the brotherhood with men with same-sex attraction. Then one of my works was then okay, I now need to tell people who are not same-sex attracted, right, need to tell somebody who's opposite-sex attracted and say you know I have this, are you still going to be friends with me? And I did that with my friends. I had friends. I had Muslim friends, I had friends from other faiths. And I said you know, this is what I'm struggling with. So I opened up with that brotherhood and then once I did workshops where I told men who weren't same-sex attracted. That helped me to say you know, I don't need to be in this cocoon of recovery. You know, it's very easy in recovery to just be in that cocoon of recovery.
Speaker 1:So I said, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna step out and I'm gonna say I'm gonna tell my reality to to other people. So it's important to have friends who have same-sex attraction, but also friends who don't have same-sex attraction, so that you feel like we're not excluded, which is what the West does. The West says you're straight, you're LGBTQ or you don't have opposite-sex attraction. Go away, right, or you're this identity. Islam isn't like that. Islam says come, don't care. Don't care If you're same-sex attracted, whatever attracted. Come, you're a brother. Yeah, you have that concept of brotherhood.
Speaker 1:So when I found, when I spoke to my friends and they were like, oh, ali, that's fine, you could have told my best friend of 20 years, he said why didn't you tell me earlier? And I was like I'm so sorry, right, and I had shame. I could not tell him. Right, it took trust for me to like myself. Once I was able to like myself, then I could tell my friends, then I could trust other people, once I was not disgusted with myself, I could then open myself up to brotherhood. And now the brotherhood is so, so important, because that's what carries me. I have my whenever I'm struggling, whenever, you know, shaitaan comes to me or something. I have people who I can contact and say I'm having a difficult time, I can lean on on my brothers.
Speaker 1:What I realized behind the attraction was I just needed connection. It wasn't the sex I was looking for, it was the connection. Alhamdulillah, I never reached that state where I actually did the amal, but I could have. I reached some places where I could have, but each time that I acted out or I'd run apps or I'd be speaking to someone, I just wanted a friend. I didn't really want the sex, that wasn't why I was doing it. I just wanted a friend. I didn't really want the sex, that wasn't why I was doing it. I just wanted someone to say, oh, he has same-sex attraction, I have same-sex attraction as well.
Speaker 1:I just wanted brotherhood, someone that would sit with me, someone who wouldn't be disgusted by me ties back to the Islamic concept of in your mosque inviting other people. Right, having that broader sense of brotherhood. Whereas the Western concept of LGBTQ is very divisive because it's like everybody oh, you're a minority there, you know, and they've combined this minority, which are different LGB is sexual and T is gender. So they say, oh, you're free, but you're not free. Islam gives you freedom, because Islam says you know what the desire doesn't matter, it's what you do with it.
Speaker 2:You're not shackled, you're not enslaved by your desires. I mean, even Allah makes this clear. Have you not seen the one who takes his own desires as his Lord? And I wrote an essay on the five false kind of theological philosophical assumptions of the LGBTQ plus movement, and one of them is that they have a false assumption that you should identify with your desire. Yes, but Islam says we should identify I mean, you've mentioned it by extension as well you identify with the fact that you're an Abid, that you're a worshipper of Allah SWT, you want to be a person of Taqwa, and that is facilitated by your environment of brotherhood. Yes, that is actually quite key. Yes, because that the whole kind of you know this is the homosexual group or the LGBT group or whatever the case may be. That is a construct that they're creating absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my identity is within God. I'm an uh, you know, maybe I'm an abd, I don't know, because you know abd is uh, we say Muhammad Abdullah, right. So we say the highest station is abd, so maybe I can be, be an ab to some of the already abs which are, which are there. But you're absolutely right, it is, you know, kind of having the sense that I'm nothing, getting rid of the ana and saying that actually I'm nothing. If God uses me as a vessel, as a medium, as a bridge for people, then you're lucky. You're very, very lucky that God has chosen you as a bridge for this. But the glory is to Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala. Right, and it took me a while for that ana to kill that ana, right? So, like, when I went into counseling, it was killing that ana because it's like, no, I can deal with it that sense of I that sense of ego, that sense of absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and coming to that identity where I'm realizing, yes, I have control over some things, but some things I don't have control over and I have to surrender that to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. There'll be things which I can't control in my life and I think you know, when you plan something and things don't happen the way that you want it to, and then you realize there's a creator right that there is. You wanted things to go a certain way. No, there's a creator. You need to align yourself, you need to listen to that voice. What, what is he wanting with me? That was the biggest question. I said allah, what do you want from me? Do you want me to be celibate? Maybe that's what you want from me. Do you want me to get married? What do you want? But I had, I had a very clear indication that god said no, speak up. Because whenever I used to go, the topic of ssa used to come.
Speaker 1:Like I was in the manchester community, alhamdulillah, I've been in different Muslim organizations. I've been in the executive committee of organizations and I felt so bad that I wasn't speaking about this. I had a lot of healing that Allah had done. I'm not the best. My story isn't the best story. I'm not a know-it-all right I'm not, but I felt that nobody is doing it, nobody is speaking up against this. You know, and credit to the Christian community where it's due. They have like umpteen organizations which are doing this, looked at our ummah, said what are we doing? I was so ashamed, so ashamed. Nothing's happening. So I said you know what, let's do it. You know like, let's do it, let's start. We started and I knew that I have to share my story. First. I knew I had. I did the podcast, one of the first podcasts I did. It was only audio and I said no video. And they said why. I said you know what I want people to see. I want people to see that there are people like this in the ummah. We, we don't want it.
Speaker 1:I didn't want my same sex attraction, but I understood that God gave it to me so that I would understand my nafs. I would understand that it was a sexualized attachment and that other people have sexualized attachment as well. You know opposite sex attracted people have sexualized attachment as well. And then I'm part of. You know, I'm not different.
Speaker 1:And I had to deliver this message to people because this world, it says you're gay, you're inherently different. You're inherently different from everybody else. And I had to break this identity paradigm because it's so corrosive. It's so corrosive because I used to say how am I going to get married? I'm gay, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna get aroused. How is that gonna happen? I didn't know that in my marriage it takes time to love someone, right, it takes time for that thing to happen. But I was told no, you'd never be able to have arousal because, because you're that I was fed lies, right. So I said no, this is lies which are destroying people's lives, this is destroying legacies of people to saying you, you can't get married, you won't have children, you know. So I felt that, you know, the Shaitaan is very strong on this one and I needed to speak up and say no. Throw this paradigm which says oh, because I have an attraction now, I will have that attraction for the rest of my life. No, allah brings change, allah changes. Allah brings people in your life. Which says you know what? What I'll work with you, it's okay, I like you, I don't care about your same-sex attraction, allah.
Speaker 1:In the Surah Ash-Shura, he says and do you go above all people, you go to men above all of the words وَتَذَرُونَ مَا خَلْقَكُمْ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ. This is so beautiful, this ayah. It says and you leave, تَذَرُونَ, you leave what God created for you. Who is he addressing? He's not addressing the straight people here. He's saying you, you know people of loot, you're going to them, above all people you're going. And what God created for you. So he's saying, at least for me, it's like saying you, same-sex attracted people. God has already created spouses for you. God has already created people who are going to understand that, who are going to understand that there's, you know, understand your reality. Why do you think that God is heedless of what you're experiencing? Wow, and when I and this was only after like, there's so much like this.
Speaker 1:I want to write a book about this, about the Quran and how practical it is right, and, and so I said, oh, if God is going to promise me a spouse, then why should I worry, right? And so I just gave, I surrendered, I surrendered to Allah and I said when that point comes and I was looking, of course I was looking, I was doing the. You know, وَالْأَصَرِ, إِنَّلا الذين آمنوا وآمنوا الصالحات. And it says وَتَوَاسُوا بِالْحَقِّ, وَتَوَاسُوا بِالصَّبَرِ. It means I need to do the amal, but I need to have sabr because 50% is me, 50% is God. Right, وَتَوَاسُوا, act out. But I know that's going to be a temporary. Yes, even now I have the same sex attraction. It would feel amazing to act out. But is that a long-term answer? No, it's not a long-term answer. Do I feel that I'd be happy after it? I won't.
Speaker 1:I also think that even if the Quran wasn't there and Allah hadn't said it, I just feel there's a difference between love and lust. Right, I? I experience it as lust. I don't experience it as love. I don't love that man.
Speaker 1:I know some, some men with same-sex attraction do have a romantic attraction, but for me it was lustful, it was, and I could differentiate between shahwa and hub, right. So it was very clear for me that if I went to the LGBTQ route, I'd be promiscuous, I wouldn't be happy, because it's lustful and that's what the word Quran uses. It says you go to men atatuna min shahwa. So, again, the Quran is amazing. When I dig deeper into it, there were so many answers. Okay, it's shahwa then.
Speaker 1:If it's shahwa, then allah is going to help me build the love with my spouse. Because it says alif, alif, baynakum or baynakum, muwadda right, the word is muwadda, for example. So I said you know, god's going to take me from shahwa to muwaddah and alif, so that he's going to help me in that process. And that's why what Lut alayhi salam says is taqwa right, because he says you know what, hold on to Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, he will take you out. And I think the way that we have understood same-sex attraction is, and the way I had it was oh God, give me everything, just don't give me that right. That's what everybody says. Right, give me everything, don't give me same-sex attraction, because it's so shameful. Right, but that's a construct that we've created for ourselves right.
Speaker 1:So when I said, okay, the society is ashamed, but Allah is not shamed, you know, there's a verse in Surah Al-Ahzab where God says, okay, they might be afraid, but Allah is not shy of the truth. So I was like you know what? If Allah doesn't have a problem with my same-sex attraction, I'm going to be loud and I'm going to speak up about it Because you know it's going to help people to say other people who have same-sex attraction to say, oh, I don't need to be ashamed anymore, I don't need to be a minority anymore, I don't need to call myself a minority, I'm just like everybody else and just because I have a different desire doesn't make me inherently different. So I think this whole concept of dividing people, you know, this whole concept of identity has we've lost generations which thought I can, never, I would never be able to have a relationship, or nobody will ever marry me, or nobody will ever do this. This is all shaitan, nobody will marry you, and so on. This is very powerful.
Speaker 2:And the point about having that shahwa, having that blameworthy desire we all have blameworthy desires. The test is if you're going to act upon them or not. Yes, and when you talked about brotherhood, we should have this type of brotherhood that everyone's, you know. It's not a caravan of despair, as Rumi says. Right, yeah, like you invite everyone in and you, you optimize them and you and you elevate them. Look at the young man who went to the Prophet, who had a blameworthy desire. He said let me allow me to do zina. Yes, right. And the Prophet there's a lot to unpack from a psycho-spiritual perspective. The young man was comfortable to speak to the Prophet. Yeah, and we need to create a brotherhood where brothers with same-sex attraction can be comfortable to speak to brothers. Right, and the Prophet didn't just use abstract knowledge and threw it at the young man. No, it's haram, full stop.
Speaker 2:No, what did he do? He empathized. He understood the context, he wanted. He had an Allah-centric goal for that human being. He wanted to optimize him. So he used the knowledge and applied it in a perfect way to optimize the individual and he said well, what about your mother and your sister? And so on and so forth? Create that empathy. Then after what do you do? He put his hand on his heart. He made dua for him. Right, yeah, beautiful, profound right. We need to be like this. It reminds me of a story. It's a personal experience actually. I mean, I was very young, I just became muslim, like two or three years, and there was some with the same sex attraction. I think he liked me, not in that sense, but in the sense of Hamza's easy going. Yeah.
Speaker 2:He's not judging me right, he's giving me space and we used to sit in his car and just discuss this particular issue. He was actually Someone who actually Practised, he did the amal, yeah, and we just unpacked and I was just there for him. I was like, well, let's get Get the best out of your situation. To cut a long story short, he got married. He's got kids, subhanallah. Now I didn't even say much, by the way, I'm not even qualified. I'm not saying that I did something special, but I think what was important and the lessons I'm learning here is just to be there for your brother.
Speaker 2:Be there for your brother and he's got a blameworthy desire he's acted upon. Have I acted on my blameworthy desires before? Absolutely, have most Muslims. Absolutely. It's the human condition. Our job is to elevate each other and to use the correct language and brotherhood and social grouping to actually optimize each other. Now what I want to unpack is maybe two final questions. So I'm assuming you said you had children, right, yes? And you're, you have, you're, you're married, right, yes, okay. So how's that? How's it going? I, yes, do you have well-being? Because a lot of, a lot of people's the secular, lgbtq plus ideologues would say he's harming himself, he's not happy, he doesn't have well-being, this, that and the other. So explain, if you can. You know, obviously you don't have to say too much if you don't want to say much, but what's your state now? What's your situation? How's life?
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely, and what you mentioned was so beautiful. I want to start with that where the story where you've helped your person in university, being that, listening alhamdulillahillah, he found that he could speak to you, which is amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it wasn't university. He was someone who was actually connected to an Islamic dawah group. He was a writer, very good writer as well but he had this side to his life as well, and I think he recognized in me that we were able to have that conversation make him feel comfortable.
Speaker 2:Which I forgot to mention is interesting because Lut alayhi salam technically offers his daughters to the people of Lut. Yes, people miss this. Yes, because people miss the psychological, spiritual element of these stories. Yes, because the Anbiya they're like Ya Qawmi O my people. It's a very intimate, intimate, very kind of loving approach to his people, like I'm concerned for you, to the point where he offered the women, folk which could include his daughters yes how powerful is that? Yeah, I'm willing to give my own yes, which we need in our communities, right?
Speaker 1:anyway, sorry, go talk to me about your situation so I think you you dropped so many golden nuggets there where the prophet was a counselor. I was trying to catch up with you you've thrown this little gold here yeah we're multi-millionaires now yes, exactly yeah intellectual level so, uh, I mean touch.
Speaker 1:You mentioned touch. The prophet touched him right, and touch is a healing part in the journey, right? So, especially men with same-sex attraction, they need healthy touch, they need thought. So one of the big doors for me in my healing was healthy male touch, because when I grew up I did not have, or I don't have, recollections, and even though my father did hug me many times, but I don't have recollections of it. So I needed someone to say, oh hey, you, your body is okay, just touch you. And we have. The prophet was used to kiss Hassan and Hussain and Arabs would be like, oh, this is disgusting, what are you doing? And he's teaching you. No, that physical touch that you're going to give your child is going to prevent sexualization later on where they're trying to get that touch from somewhere else. So big healing part was me getting hugs. Or how do we get healthy fatherly touch, brotherlyly touch, right in this work? So just wanted to, you know, kind of point that out from the Hadith that you mentioned. Where am I now?
Speaker 1:Marriage was you know, I think the biggest thing that people fear in marriage is what's happened on the first night, right, I'm not going to get it up's, the arousal's not going to happen, right? So, and what I? What? I had already spoken to my wife before the marriage. I had told her and I given her, and we have this. Um, there's steps in revealing it, which I help people into how to reveal to your spouse before marriage. Because if someone had told me after marriage they had something like SSA, I would have felt that it was too much, right, why didn't you tell me before? So I had told her before. I had told her that I would probably go public at this point as well. So I want to give a shout-out to her, to my family. If it wasn't for their support, I wouldn't be able to do this. It is through their trust and through their support that I made, because it's not just me, it's my family. When you publicize yourself, then you're going to get eyes.
Speaker 1:So I told her before getting married that, look, I'm in a better place now, the attraction I need to work on. So in the first year I'll need to go slow, I'll need to see. You know, I would say most conservative Muslims have never had a sexual experience before marriage, right? So for all of us, it's like we don't know what's going on right. So I had, you know, took it step by step, took it slow, and there was a journey where I understood what she liked, what I liked, you know, and it took a year. It took me a year for me to be comfortable in that. And I think that, again, this type of knowledge, this type of talk, my elder brother actually he gave that to me so he was like, make sure you do this and that. Again, this type of preparing somebody who's getting married, preparing it's very, very important so they know what intimacy is, and kind of these discussions. Alhamdulillah, we have a lot of good courses now which repair youth for marriage.
Speaker 1:And the first year was difficult. It was difficult. There was arguments. She's come from Pakistan, right, I never initially thought I'd marry someone from Pakistan just because I didn't want them to leave their family and come here, even though I'm Pakistani. But God had chosen. Like, the first time I told her about the same-sex attraction, her response was I wanted someone special and you're special. And I was like hang on, hang on, you've not listened to what I've said. And I was like subhanAllah.
Speaker 2:That is so beautiful.
Speaker 1:And I said to her later on like why did you say that? And she said you know what God had just put peace. He put Sakina in my heart at that time where I was thinking because the time that I had chosen was she was sharing something deep about her. So she was sharing her trauma. She was sharing. So I was like you know what? This is the right time she's sharing about herself. Let me share about myself. It wasn't in our first meeting. It was our third face-to-face meeting because she was in Pakistan and I was in UK and used to video call.
Speaker 1:So I'd set an intentional time and intentional space. I had said I didn't say I was gay, I said I had. I developed these feelings when I was younger and this led to me feeling different than I was attracted. You know it's very important when you share the SSA, you don't say I'm gay. You know that's not how you do it. You build that up to the story, to why the attractions there.
Speaker 1:I gave her the opportunity to tell others because I didn't want her to hold it. Oh, my God, my potential spouse has said me I didn't want her to hold it. She didn't decide to tell people, but I gave her the opportunity to do that. So she knew 100% what was coming into me. And we both are very God-centric, right? That's what kind of I when I, the first thing I look for is taqwa, right, and taqwa I look at, not. Is he not? Just? Is she praying? Of course you know praying, fasting, but is she able to contain me If I share something with her? How is her response? Is she judgmental? Does she have empathy? Does she have rahmah? You know? And she did right.
Speaker 1:So then I was like this is a clear. I know she fasted, I know she comes from a good family. But when she had that rahmah and she said, no, you know, like this is this, this is okay. I just said you don't know what you're doing, do istikhara right. Because I was like you don't know what you're saying. And she did the istikhara. And the istikhara came out, the verse said and we have given you the best of things, it was something very, very good verse. So she said I have no doubts, I have no shak, let's go ahead. Wow and um, from from that day on, because she trusted in me, um, when we had our first child, when we were doing our we, we in the first attempt right and we want our second child. First attempt because god had made it so easy. There are other things in life which have been difficult for us and things, but whenever the things which have to do with this work s SSA, or something God has made it so easy.
Speaker 2:Bro, this is so inspirational it's unbelievable. Honestly, I nearly broke down, especially your wife's response about you being special. Now I'm going to try to reframe it slightly, because we have a very kind of toxic masculine space on the online world. I don't mean it from a liberal, feminist perspective, I mean it from generally. We don't know how to navigate the space as muslims.
Speaker 2:What she probably saw in you was a real man, bro, because a real man deals with his nafs. Yeah, now we have so-called role models. They can't deal with their nafs. They're not real men. Yeah, you are the masculine role model, bro. I'm not saying that's to placate you. Yeah, sure, I actually mean that. I mean this echoes a lot of things that I say elsewhere. Anyway, a real man is the one who could bench press his ego, right. A real man is the one who could deal with his desires, and she probably saw that in you, bro, right, and she saw where that may lead her in terms of your family, because you know, know, she saw that great potential because you're able to deal with your nafs, your, your, your shahawat, your blameworthy desires.
Speaker 2:Most men heterosexual men, if you want to use that term still don't know how to deal with the blameworthy desires, bro. This is why it's quite heroic this. This is like a heroic hero. Heroic, yeah, this is quite brave and it's very manly. This is a Manly conversation. You're telling the world how you deal with your Blame, with your desires.
Speaker 2:Most men still don't know how to do that. Jazakallah. I mean, wow, allah has blessed you. Allah has blessed you, man, and I know it's. You know there's ups and downs in life and there's going to be Continued tests, but it looks like you have A very kind of mature framing and you have a great family Behind you, man. Allah bless your family. So final question, if that's okay, yes, just for ease. So we want to. What I mean by ease Is just, you know, concluding it really well. So if someone has same-sex attraction, they know some kind of key steps they can take and we could give them hope. So the question here is imagine someone comes to you with same-sex attraction. What would be the key things you would tell them and maybe you could end with a statement of hope for them?
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. We had, you know, people listening and people saying, oh, this is my story or this relates to me. I think the biggest thing to just know is you're not alone and there is a different narrative. So at the moment, what society gives you is two options Be miserable, right, don't tell anyone. Get married and don't work on it. Just get married, nobody will know. Right. That's option A, right, and there's some religiosity to it. Some people say, oh, allah is satar al-ayyub. Right, wrong type of understanding of religion, right. And then the second option is well, allah made me this way. You know um, and I didn't choose it. Like I was saying, I didn't choose it. So if I didn't choose it, then there's something wrong in scripture right there's something wrong it.
Speaker 1:And when the prophet said, in the end of times, people would put their desires over the quran rather than quran over the desires. That's the second, second path, right? So this is the two paths that people see at the moment. I want to say no, there's a third path. There's a third path which says you know what? I'm out and proud. I say I have SSA. Alhamdulillah, I have SSA. I'm not ashamed about my SSA, because I know that God gave it to me. Why would I run away from something that God gave it to me? And because of the blessing of my SSA, I was able to peak myself, probably in a way which I you know, because I hated myself so much. It allowed me to really go to the depths of my soul. You know, and I know, it's really difficult for people. A lot of people have suicidal ideation. They're like oh, anything. But let be known that I have same-sex attraction. But I said, no, the story of loot is scattered in the Quran, probably like in six chapters, or so why? Because God is still saying hey, you same-sex attracted person, we have a home for you, you have a home for you. You have a home for you in Islam. Islam's not going to judge you. Allah's not going to judge you. Come, come right and the healing journey looks with a final decision to trust. Trust your same-sex brothers. Whatever has happened, whatever trauma has happened, whatever has happened in the past where you've disconnected, you've detached from the same-sex, let's work on that, let's work on those wounds, let's work on that trauma, that emotional, you know. So when people come to us, the first thing that we do is we say firstly, the courage. You know, it took me 11 years, it took me a long, long time to go in front of that person and tell us all. So we honor their courage in coming forward. The second thing we do is we connect them to a community. You know, like what you said brotherhood. So we have a brotherhood which is interfaith. We have Brothers Road organization. They're interfaith. We have our strong support, which is the Muslim for us that we've created. So you're going to be connected to group work, where you have other people who are just like you. There's fantastic initiative by Straight Struggle. They have a discord group. There's a podcast now, a Way Beyond the Rainbow. There's so many materials now, alhamdulillah, and they weren't when I started. We're doing this so that people, muslims, now, to say you have a home, we have material for you, you have a community, you want a one-to-one session, we have it for you. And this was my dream. This was my dream for someone who was struggling like me can now go in and say oh okay, this is the resource, this is the material. I have an understanding. We still have work to do, we still have to create a model, model, a Quranic model, on this, but just know that if you're watching this and you need the support, then it's available and you don't need to make a decision now.
Speaker 1:You know a lot of people say well, I don't know how Ali's faking it. You know he's not happy in this marriage. Oh, his marriage will end in 10 years. You know it's not. Well, I could.
Speaker 1:What I say to these people was I did not need an external force to tell me the difference between love and lust, right, I think, as an insan, I can make a difference between lust and love, and what I was having was lust, it was not love. So then I said there must be a scientific way of understanding this. And there is a scientific way. There's a psychology behind this, right, biggest message. There is a third way, you don't need to be ashamed of your same-sex attraction. It's a reality. What's behind the attraction is important. I couldn't connect with men I couldn't connect with. Let's help you work on that. When you work on that material which is below the attraction, you'll find healing in other places of your life. You'll be assertive. You'll be. You said masculine, right.
Speaker 1:People will say, oh, he's confident, he's talking about his shahawat. You'll get you'll. You'll start lacking yourself because everybody needs to look at their nafs. There is zulamat in our nafs that we all need to look into. You know, I have a lot of zulamat. Allah told me hey, you, you need to talk about your zulamat. Right, my darknesses. So that's why I'm talking about it. But we all have them. Everybody has darkness. Don't be afraid. Come to Allah, come to him and just trust that he will bring you to people. He will, he'll hold your hand, he'll take you through. And and just trust. It just starts with trust. That's what I'm saying, because it's different in me, like an Rasي لَكَنْ رَسُولًا, أَمِينًا أَخُوَهُمْ لُوتُ.
Speaker 1:If Lut was not trustworthy, if he didn't present, then people wouldn't have…. And the only reason, by the way, just to end, that the nation was destroyed was because there was not one single person that wanted to change. We have traditions that say even one single person, one single person, would have gone to Lut and said help me, then God would have not destroyed that nation, right? So when I read that, I was like, oh my God, this just reframes the whole story for me. So even if one person came forward and that's why this ummah is trialed by same-sex attraction because there will be people from this ummah which will say you know what? I'm not going to go that way, I'm going to do jihad and that's why we're not destroyed, because there are people here who are saying you know what? I have the shahwat, but I'm going to follow the sunnah of Lut alayhi salam, I'm going to have the taqwa of Lut alayhi salam and carry forward.
Speaker 2:Wow, inspirational story, ro. And carry forward. Wow, inspirational story, bro. May Allah bless you. I think this is going to be impactful and transformative for many, many people Men, women, brothers, sisters, muslims, non-muslims. Very brave, very courageous and extremely masculine, real rojula in terms of being able to show to people how to make a distinction Between the desire blame of the desire and the action, and unpacking what's behind it and having a pathway to real success, which is trying to be a person of Taqwa. Jazakallah Khairul, thank you for having me Anytime. Every great cause needs its defenders. On guard is our stand For truth, for the ummah, for the next generation. But don't remain on the sidelines. Become a guardian, empower the movement that refuses to stay silent. Click the link now and subscribe to On Guard wherever you get your podcasts.