King Con

5'll getcha 10, Xena's at it again! MEANWHILE  Justine and Hayley rewatch Xena Warrior Princess' "King Con" and research Games & Gambling in the ancient world! Visit our Patreon for Justine's research on "The Pigeon Drop" and other Confidence Scams!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:36

We are recording in the ancient gods. The Pina Cast.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

I turned off the Master Echo.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Maybe he's no longer searching her text for mimes. Hello and welcome. We are in a time of ancient gods, the Xena podcast, and we are reviewing every episode of our favorite TV show, Xena Warrior Princess. And we are researching the myths, the heroes, the themes we meet in the Xenaverse. I am Justine, and my lovely co-host here with me as always Haley.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

It's me.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Hey Haley! Hi!

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Hi!

SPEAKER_00 1:24

So good to see you. Delighted to be here. Top of the episode, I just want to plug our Patreon where we post screenshots from the episodes, our research references for every episode, and little mini sodes with extra research. There's a link in the description of this episode. So you can also go to where where can they go again, Haley?

SPEAKER_01 1:46

In a timeofancient gods.com.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

The infinitely scrollable website.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

I was just scrolling there the other day.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

I love a good scroll.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

I scrolled up and down, made a couple of clicks. We love it. Click on through.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

So at inatimeofancient gods.com, we have links and descriptions to every episode and info on the research from every episode. Thank you, Haley, for holding on for dear life for the past hour while I was troubleshooting all of my just audio drama.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

It was I was just gripping the arms of my chair, these little fingernail marks as I just waited for about 30 minutes to see if that microphone was gonna charge on us.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Come on through.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

I was yeah, whatever it needed to do.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

I'm just charging a microphone. Well, I shed some tears. I offered some blood to the audio gods. I will say let's go with we'll go with Mercury. Sure. I think he's a god of communication for us and he helped us out. Thanks, team.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Thanks, Mercury. Hats off to you today.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Okay. Should we just dive in? Let's just dive in. Oh my god. Let's do it. Okay. We are in season three, episode 15, King Khan. This was written by Chris Manheim, who we last met at the Bittersweet and Maternal Instincts, R-I-P to the Xeniverse Queen. And it was directed by Janet Greek. This is Greek's one and only directorial Xenoverse adventure. But scrolling her IMDB, she delightfully directed Weird Al's Ricky music video, which is a parody of Tony Basil's uh Basil? Basil? Mickey. Like, hey Mickey or something. Oh yeah. And it was an I Love Lucy reference. So great. Does that come through in this episode? I think a little.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

A little bit, yeah. We should add a link to our infinitely scrollable website.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Oh, this originally aired February 23rd, 1998. And would you like to hear the IMDB description?

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Oh, I would love to. I I kept it a surprise.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Oh, good. I love it. Okay. Um, do do do do do do. So Joxers wins at a gambling palace, set him up for a con and then a beating. Xena drafts the con artists to avenge the beating with their less than wholehearted cooperation.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Hmm. I feel like that is like an AI summary. Yeah, right. Yeah. I'm not pleased by I'm not delighted by it, also.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

I'm gonna give it like a give it a B. I give it a B too. Yeah, it was not fun. Okay, so the TV guide promo. Oh. Poor Joxer is conned out of gambling winnings, then is almost killed by the gambling den owner's henchman. So Zina decides it's payback time. Oh, yeah. Much better.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Yeah, love it. B plus to the TV guide writers from when? 1999?

SPEAKER_00 4:42

1998. February February 23rd. Okay, so who's the big bad in this episode?

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Well, I put down greed, but what did you put down?

SPEAKER_00 4:54

I was like the house always winning, organized crime. Mm-hmm. Organized crime's pretty bad. I guess we can all be. It's really bad, you guys. Push up my case. What gods are in this one? Oh, Toulouse. Oh my god. Hi, Kiki Cat. Gripped his way up onto my leg. I'm bleeding. More offerings to the gods.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

More offerings to the gods. I recently told my son about Justine's cats when she was younger, who would just climb up your legs with their claws. Climb up your legs. They would look like that asparagus when you're cooking it on the on the stove. They just try to get up there.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

So cute.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Well, in this episode, I didn't notice any named gods, but I did see a nameless sanctuary goddess.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

I did too. We'll have a lot to say about her as we as we meet her. Oh, good. I would say maybe the goddess Lady Luck. Oh. Lucky Lucky.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

She's gonna be a lady tonight. Any villagers? So many. So many villagers. They're going about their business, patronizing the local casino. I feel like they were a little more city dwellers, though.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

They're cosmopolitans, it's true. Yeah. Urbanites. We have any urbanites in this app. Do we have a Doctor Xina?

SPEAKER_01 6:14

A little bit.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

A little bit, Doctor Xina. Yeah, she's calling for some salves. We appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Not really a cult watch. I mean, we're in uh like a temple, but we're we don't see any tem we don't see a single acolyte.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Not a single acolyte.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

You took the words out of my mouth, Haley. The acolytes are nowhere to be seen.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Mysteriously. Is it a dungeon episode? Do we see any dungeons?

SPEAKER_00 6:43

No. No, I don't think so. Just the dungeons of our hearts. Love interest. Well? We spotted that deep V from like 20 miles away.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

We knew. Deep V crystal blue eyes. Flirtation.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

I think he's a delightfully unconvincing romantic interest. Like I love they just sort of like shoving these guys on us. And you know, her soulmate's Gabby, you guys. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

But I'm I'm in I enjoyed the like rakish fellow light, like playful flirtation without any consequences. We'll have a lot to talk about. A great thing. I'm excited. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Okay. So our research today, what did you research, Haley?

SPEAKER_01 7:26

Well, you caught me in the middle of a sip of water. Um I researched games and gambling in the ancient world, and it was such a fun topic. So I'm excited to share it.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

I'm really excited about that. So Haley will share that with us in this episode today. And I researched confidence scams and the pigeon drop scam, which I'll talk about on Patreon so you can check that out over there.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

I can't get enough hearing about scams. I don't want to be scammed, but I can't get enough hearing about them.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

But we like talking about it. I'm just um I'm hugging my cat. He's so sweet right now. I don't know if you can see him. Just the cuddiest.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Oh, he poked his little head up, and I can see his beautiful green eyes. He's so cute.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Okay. So where are we? We start off in a gambling hall. There's some kind of like seedy underbelly of the city style music.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

We've got disco lights. We've got like definitely a drum machine and some kind of generically Middle Eastern Greek music.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

I mean, the music's really good at the end. It is actually great. I had it stuck in my head for a while. Like later it's like kind of trip hoppy, and I was like, yeah, cool, vibe it.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

I really appreciated the setting and the music throughout the episode. I thought it was a particularly like well realized scene and like atmosphere.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Oh, completely. They were able to continue all of the notes of the Xenoverse and really, but also make us know that this is a casino. Yeah, it's great.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

It's really candelabras everywhere, some fire pits. There's like jewel-toned, like roulette wheel type things, and there's a lot of ways for people to bet.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

There's like wrestling going on. There's like a there's a wheel spinning, a roulette or something. Um, and then there's a lot of different gaming tables. And at one of these gaming tables, we find joxer surrounded by buxom women attracted to his winning streak. I think he's playing craps. Is that what perhaps is with the dice? I don't know. You're the one who researched it now.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

Oh my gosh, the shame. They didn't have that back then. It was probably duodecimo scripta. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Hey. Hey, you guys want to go play a quick game of duodecodo scripta?

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Sure do. So that's what he's doing. He's tossing the dice out and he's like, yeah, I did it again.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

And then an older man approaches Joxer. This guy is wearing his wealth. He's in a fur-trimmed, gold thread embroidered robe. He's probably in his like upper, uh maybe mid-sixties. Sure. Put him there. Yeah, like, but uh like a white beard and quaffed hair. Nicely trimmed. He introduces himself as the club's owner, Titus. And he tries to entice Joxer to double his money at a different game. But Joxer's gotta meet some friends, we assume Xenan Gabby, and so he takes his winnings and leaves. And Titus does not like this turn of events. Oh no. He sends his casino security bros to go after Joxer because the house doesn't like to lose.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

It's true. And I was pretty proud of Joxer for walking away at that moment. Oh yeah. I was like, good job. I don't know if he meant to, but it he seemed totally in possession of his decision to leave while he was ahead.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Yeah, well, I think he's got um he's got his schedule. He has to go meet Zina and Gabby. Not again. He doesn't want them to be, you know, he wants to impress Gabby and not come in some debts.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Right.

unknown 11:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

So he's rich.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

He's got like a hundred dinar. He's leaving the casino. And we return to like the plucky joxer music. So we're not in the electro drum mix that we were in before. No.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

And we're walking around a pretty standard walled city in this universe. Like with the city. It's wealthy.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

They've got like a lot of rich colors. It's not just yellow sacks here, my friends. It is like dual-toned. You know. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

That money trickles down. Yeah, exactly. So Joxer's acting a little cocky with his winnings. Um, and he walks by two guys who are arguing and he steps in. One guy like yells at him to stay out of it. And the other guy's like, hey, maybe Joxer can help, or maybe this guy can help. And then we find out later that these guys are Eldon and Wraith. And they're being hella suspicious. Like this is yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

We know from the beginning that this, I mean, it's also called King Khan, so we're ready for this situation. But we're like, hmm, two guys having a lar loud argument that only Jocksar can solve.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

I don't know about that.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

It's a little fishy. So Eldon has like curly red hair. He's wearing a like standard Xenoverse vest with a little bit of a V-neck. But Rafe is wearing kind of yeah, he's wearing his like loose linen charcoal shirt under a very structured, like leather quilted vest with the deepest V we've seen so far this episode. It's remarkable. This is it. Of the episode, this is the deepest V. Oh yeah. And I'm gonna say, five will get you 10. This dude is gonna be somebody's love interest. So Ray starts, yeah, he's like telling Joxer this story that he and Eldon found a gold nugget worth a hundred dinars. Neither of them has the money to buy the other out of their share of the nugget.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

Right. And they don't trust each other to cash it out. They're in this big bind because they got this really valuable stuff. And if only someone could give them just a little bit of money, they could figure it all out.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

And that person would get a lot too. Yeah, he's gonna get, you know, most of it. So then they're like, Rafe is speedily swapping the cash and the nuggets, and they're talking and they're confusing, and they're, you know, definitely doing all this blather. And then Joxer ends up with the nugget. Eldon and Rafe have all the cash. And then we end with Joxer kind of getting everyone to clasp hands and true friendship and fellowship. Yeah. And then Joxer is like, I saw the day. And then he heads out to meet up with Xena and Gabby. And then we see this casino security squad following him out of town, but they didn't see that exchange of cash. So they think he still has all the cash.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Right. Yeah. They're clearly mad at him for winning. Yeah. So he's leaving the town. We skipped to Zina and Gabby. Gabby's on the side.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Well, also Rafe and but Rafe and Eldon, um, they were very pleased the scheme worked out. And then it turns out they it was fool's gold and they stole Joxer's sword. Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Yeah. So fool's gold being Micah, whatever that thing is, it's not real gold, but it's nice and shiny. So he's got it in his pocket and they took his sword, which we didn't even notice. All of us are currently checking our own pockets to make sure nothing else got stolen. Um do you want to talk about games? Sure. Yeah. Let me talk about games.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

So I was thinking about gaming and gambling, and same. I love this setting of the gambling dens. I was curious, how much was this part of the ancient world?

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Ooh.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

So I looked at a series of articles. I think the one, um, I'll list all of them on the website, but if you're gonna find one that I thought was the most interesting, it was Nicholas Purcell's Literate Games, Robin Roman Urban Society and the Game of Alea from Past and Present in 1995. And uh that kind of gave me kind of a cultural look at games in general, but I'll give you a rundown of how games worked in the ancient world kind of generally as well. So gambling is something, apparently, from scholarship that is basically universal. Like betting on the outcome of things is something that people have done from time immemorial.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

This is also so relevant to today's everything. Just like, I don't know, just thinking about like the Iran war and everything, and all these just people are just betting on just global conflicts and making it okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Well, you saw I think somebody got caught for information on their involvement in some of these military escapades. So there's a lot of gambling today, sports betting, etc. And so we're seeing something that's a you know, right now, the tail end of a very long development.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

So any type of betting is different from sports and other games because it tends to be based on like short games, so games that are like pretty short in duration. They're decisive in the answer, so it's like win or lose. It's not like a stock market necessarily where there's like intermediary results. You win it or you lose it. And there's also generally like a visible physical demonstration of the result. So that's why you see dice or cards or something. Is chance involved in there as well? Yes, yeah. They're low in physical skill, they can be like moderate in strategy, and they're really high in the role of chance in determining the outcome. So there's not a it's like there has to be a lot of guesswork as well. So we see gambling emerging in China, at least the first evidence of it in around 2000 BCE. Around the same for Ur, um, Crete, 1800 BCE, Egypt, Crete 1600 BCE, India around 1000 BCE, and the Hittites were betting on horses as far back as 4000 BCE.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

So really old that would be fun.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

What fun the year 4,000, just betting on horses.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

I think that one. Put them on lucky number seven or whatever it is when it's horses. Golden feast. What would you call your horse?

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Stone's throw.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

Everything. All right. So, and in traditional societies, gambling was primarily for like socially defined ends. And I'm not exactly sure how that played out in different societies. But instead of just like the money you would win, it would be around kind of status or religious or communal activities with little like direct economic significance. And you can see that in more traditional societies today as well, where gambling is practiced. But in capitalist contexts, gambling increasingly takes a form that allows a person or a group to extract profit from that transaction, from the game. And so that's what we see in this episode. It's definitely like a market-oriented gambling practice where somebody's going to take the money out, specifically Titus, is hoping to get all the gains from this. Yeah. But when we go to these like earliest gambling style games in the ancient Mediterranean, for example, we see this these practices that are religious and cultural and play kind of intermingled. So you have knuckle bones and dice in Greece as early as like the 5th century BCE. And you have this even in accounts like the Odyssey, so and the Iliad. So Ajax and Achilles are depicted playing some kind of board game on several amphora. Just nerds, nerds, just calling out numbers, so obsessed with their board games. They'd be on their massive multiplayer online games in the present day. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

I've been watching a lot of uh Dimension 20 on uh on dropout. It's really fun. It's just people uh playing DD.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Yeah. Oh, it's fun. Get on there, it's really fun. Oh, guess what? It had it connects, it all goes back to 500 BCE. Yeah. So it was very common for soldiers to be playing either board games or they would even play with like tokens and coins to just like help shape their decisions in the battle, upcoming battles. They'd use it both for kind of like prophecy and decision making, or you could think like eeny meeny miny mo, just kind of if you don't know how you're gonna choose. Um, but also board games in general. And they had this kind of cultural resonance in part because as you know in Greek, letters were also numbers, and each letter carried a meaning. And so a throw wasn't just kind of a number on a board, but it had associations with places and astronomy and literature. Yeah. So a throw of eight apparently was Stesichorus's throw, which was a reference, I believe, to the poet who first described the inventor of dice, Palomedes, who's like very important in dice games and gaming culture. A three was associated with an adulterer. A 24 meant benevolent. I love this so much. Isn't that amazing? And lucky is 45. So if you threw a 45, it's lucky. Ooh. I don't know how you throw a 45, but who cares? Well, you you could learn dice. We just need a lot of dice. Gotta have a lot of 20-sided dice to get that number. Or two. Three. So, okay, so they're also allegorical and metaphysical associations. So some games involved three-sided dice, or I guess four-sided dice with an empty side. I don't know how that works. Um, and a three-segmented game board. And those games could evoke like past, present, and future, or the different ages of man. So you're playing with tarot.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

It's all tarot.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Yeah, it's all of these kind of like layered metaphysical, religious, and social meanings in the play of a game.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Well, that's what I mean. We talk about this often on the pod of how you know, back in the day our spiritual lives were so present in every other thing we did too. We didn't have this like separate, we didn't have a separation of church and statement.

SPEAKER_02 21:21

Yeah. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

I'll take it. I know.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

I know. I meant that as a joke. Yes, yeah. But it was just bringing it. I think bringing the spiritual life is um not mandating what everybody does in their religion, but bringing your spiritual life into every present moment is nice.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Yeah. Well, it's, you know, it's kind of um this type of integration of the soul, the body, and the kind of public self too.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

And play too. And I think such a such an aspect of spiritual life is having, you know, a curiosity and whimsy and being able to take yourself and being able to use your imagination. That's so nice.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Yeah. It rem Reminds me of a book I've was reading by Marquise Bay that's about kind of it's a little bit about resistance. It's also about kind of underground escapes for in oppressive society or circumstances and the significance of interiority in play for us as kind of modern people, but you know, in the past as well, play as a kind of potential subversive or it can play because of its nature can be subversive or align with the societal expectations or somewhere in between them.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

I mean the oppressors just want us all to be scared and sad and uh joy is a radical act, man.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Yeah. Joyful lives. Joyful lives. So the ancient Greeks had a lot of opportunities for that, and the Romans too. So there were like in addition to the dice games, there are more complex board games like Patea or Polace, which were like chess without dice. And apparently, at least according to one ancient author, the gaming board of King Mithridates, the ruler of Pontus in northern Anatolia, was four feet by three feet and composed of precious stone, two slabs of precious stone, and had a golden moon on it, weighing 30 pounds, which I want to game board. Teach me how to play, King Mithridates.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

So wait, what was that game that he was playing? It's just a big board for whatever kind of games he wants.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

I think it probably was a specific game, but we don't know. Well, I don't know what it maybe there's a scholar who does, but we're not exactly sure why. Haley doesn't know it.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Can't be known. It's not real.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

But in the oh, I'll tell you some names of Roman games, which I think you're gonna like.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Some Roman games include La Trunculi, which means little robbers. Oh I want to play little robbers. I want to play La Trunculi. I did the little rabbit. There's also regis, so kings, maybe regus, I'm not sure. Is it a hard G? And Duodecum scripta or 12 writings.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

Duo Deccum Scripta.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Duo Deccum Scripta. And that was played throughout the entire empire. Um, there are two sets even found in third century CE graves in the Mariotic Kingdom in present-day Sudan, which scholars link to kind of trade and cultural spread.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

We love a cultural exchange of games. We love it.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Just send your games around. See what send your gods. So fun. So people sat on their knees generally with a game between them. They played for fun, as I said, also part of ritual life. And they even held like emotional resonance. So people would deposit their lucky dice or game pieces in the temples or possibly even play in the temples, which is kind of cool. Interesting. Yeah. And DD fans and other dice throwing game fans be on high alert. If you didn't know before, the dice tower was an ancient Roman invention. So isn't that fun? A Purgus or Turicula.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

So for those dice tower and indoor plumbing. Like thank you, Romans. Thank you. Thank you. Did they invent indoor plumbing? Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

So yeah. Well, they yeah. Holes at least. They had holes and pipes. That's part of it. That's part of the essentials. So that's all you need. And it's basically the same idea with the dice tower as with indoor plumbing. And you'll see why in just a second. Something goes in and something comes out. And that's what you really need. So if you haven't seen one before, a dice tower is literally like a little teeny tower with a hole on the top. And you drop your dice in. You can see where I'm going here. And there are a couple slopes inside that make the dice roll around so that it comes out randomly, which makes it so that people like Xena and others can't roll the dice in a particular way to get the number that they want. No dice control.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

Oh, that's interesting. So it's not just a fun thing for funsies.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

It is a thing for funsies, but yes, it has an anti-cheating property. And I think even inscriptions on the Roman dice towers sometimes said like, no one can cheat with this. You roll it, it's not going to come out your way. Or whatever. Oh no. So fun. So um, so yeah, they have these dice towers. And that was very important because many games were played with dice. So this last part of my research, I know it's a little long, but it's so fun. I just have to tell you.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

You're just having a great time, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

I love dice. I love games. So Aleah was like the name for these dice games. And it's A-L-E-A. So if I'm mispronouncing it, I'm sorry. I it's my best guess.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Aelea or Aaliyah? We're we're we're still we're, you know, we cross the line between Xeniverse and reality. We can pronounce things however we want. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Dinars, Alaya, it's all fine. Yeah. Um, so this game was also a two-person game using a board, dice, like a dice potter, tower, dice tower, and a counter. And it became a site for gambling, but also for like numerical and letter literacy. Because if you have to read the dice, you have to know what the letters and the numbers are. It was apparently, so this is one of the earliest games. So it's one of the ones that my describe before invented in the Trojan War, played by Penelope's suitors in the Odyssey. Oh, yeah. Because they're all dilettants, played by Claudius and Augustus of Rome and also by Caligula.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

And it's depicted in Vesuvian graffiti and paraphernalia. It's also depicted in the clubhouse in the sanctuary at Delphi in sixth in the fifth century BCE. Well, we gotta learn how to play this game. I know, we gotta figure it out. It had more positive connotations in ancient Greece than in Rome, even as it became more common among popular classes in Rome in the first centuries of the common era. And this is probably because it became more popular and because it became more money-centered and a very urban game in Rome. So in these first centuries, invectives started to come up against it. So people started to kind of write against gaming and dice gaming, especially.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Was it because they're trying to control people's literacy? What's the what's the vibe? Why are they hating it?

SPEAKER_01 28:35

There's part of that. So one scholar, I think the scholar that I mentioned before, describes it as potentially a control of literacy, but it's also just because there's a kind of rising popular class that has enough money for leisure time, and it's a complaint against their use of leisure time as much as it is as it is a complaint against the game itself. So the fact that they're not working and they're spending time during the day playing.

unknown 29:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

It's a class war.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

It's always class war.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

So one visitor to Rome in the fourth century CE described what I think is going to be a pretty familiar sound to anyone who has been in a gaming circle or played a very competitive game with other people or watched someone play an online game. They described the kind of sound of the city as people breathing heavily and concentrationally, like snuffling as they try to concentrate with the game because they're so consumed with playing. They're like, oh, I've got to get it right. So they love that. It's a really engaging game. People are really obsessed with it. And it's very, you know, useful, especially for this kind of marginal class. If you have enough money to bet, the promise of winnings could be really big. And Juvenile depicted um like gaming tables with enslaved cashiers ready to collect money from betters, carrying chests of money. So you can see how like the potential profit funneling into the pockets of game runners, but also the pockets of potentially lucky players was like troubling to social status. It's like very challenging. And you also see a lot of brawls in the taverns around these games. We're seeing this in the episode. This is a historically accurate episode. Historically accurate. People still they do behave that way around gambling. Yeah. So increasingly you see kind of bans on dice playing, at least during like normal work hours. So you see more kind of uh restriction of dice playing to festival days or Saturnalia, especially when enslaved people and enslavers and all members could play dice against each other. And you see that depicted in uh, I believe like murals and other artwork of the time.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

But for the popular classes who are playing dice, it could be useful for social advancement. So where money is so important for status, especially in these urban centers, really can uh depend on money to lift your family status. Players could hope for, but maybe rarely win, enough to substantially change their fortunes. Um, they could get um access to particular purchasable privileges, et cetera. And across cultures generally, gambling in these older societies was one way you could change your status, your personal status, and potentially your family status outside of like kinship networks and marriages, kind of stronger, slower strategies. Even for the elites, in rare cases, if they behave the right way around dice games, their success in dice games and other forms of games could be seen as either a measure of their skill or their luck. So like a good portent for their future endeavors. And then finally, as we'll see in this episode, a person's use of their winnings could also bear social import. So a charitable donation of the money won could absolve the payer from the guilt of a particular offense or for their gambling in general.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Well, I I think I've seen something recently that uh in a certain TV show we might be discussing. We might get into it.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

We'll see that. We might. So, in short, I could have said just this, but I told you a lot more. But games were part of just cultural literacy, a strategy for advancement for urban classes, a way to form like a pre cohesive culture and potentially like protective structures of um social engagement, and a reflection of precarious urban life and the significance of money for survival in the urban area.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

So games, man. Games are so important. And oh, I would be interested in did you read anything like role-playing games, or is there anything about yeah, like taking on the identities of other, like that kind of like theatrical play, that concept of like catharsis or I don't know. I've I've been really loving all the research lately in people playing DD and having that um um having it be like a therapeutic effect, you know, it helps with like anxiety, helping like move through trauma, all sorts of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

I think that wasn't emphasized in the articles I read because they are much more on like strategy and luck games. But those games do also like we don't know much about the gameplay because all we have for most of them is like the boards and the pieces. And as you can imagine, if you're given the boards and the pieces of katan or you know, game maker or an elaborate board game.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

What is this? What are these tiles as they fall from my fingers?

SPEAKER_01 33:51

But they did, they were um they often the game boards often evoked particular battles in the kind of inscriptions on them and warfare or races or chariots. And so there is a lot of play around them. I don't know how much that's like part of like it's not necessarily a role play, but you can imagine you're the little horse racing along or you're the yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:13

Uh so just so interesting that um games are never like it's never just the game, you know, it's also like what we're kind of evoking and then the dynamics between the people.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

There's just so much. We love a game. We love a game. I got to play Catan over the weekend and Catan is a game I don't love. Oh, I kind of have fun with it, but I had a terrible time because I didn't have anything on a 10 or a 5, and like every other role was a 10 or a 5. If you can believe it. So I said the dice were loaded.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Risk and Catan. You said the dice were loaded. You're so fine. Through the table. I think there's just not enough whimsy in those two for me. But I have been playing chess. I've been have you been playing chess? I've been playing um some Haley smirks at me. I hate chess. Oh, you've been playing chess. I hated it, and then I went on a um a really fun trip to Portland with my uh bestie Elaine, who we went to undergrad together. And she's how I even got into classics because she was a classics major and I would just go to classes with her. But we took a trip to Portland and she's been really into chess. So she was like, let's play chess.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

It is fun. I think any strategy game, I have more fun playing with kids because then I feel like I don't need to try to win so much, and that's more fun for me.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

I think for me, yeah, I had I was a total chess hater, and so I completely understand where you're coming from. But I feel like I'm finally learned how the pieces move, so then I can understand how to even have yeah, how to even have strategy. Yeah. So I know I'm feeling better about it.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Yeah, I I can play chess against about a six-year-old and occasionally get close to winning at this point. But I'll get better. I will.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Okay, well, maybe I'll I'll send you a link.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

Oh my gosh, we could play together. Yeah, it's fun. It's just it's through chess.com. Oh it's just a link to inatimeofancient gods.com. Yeah, let's do chess with me. Let's play. Let's play, friends.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

I one thing I really love about chess, and then I'll let us move on, is that there it's a fairly widespread game, and that's one of the great things about games in general. Like if there's yeah, if you were in the Roman Empire and you wanted to play Duo Deckyum scripta or whatever that one is, then you could just you know look at the board and you'd be set with you could just play. You don't have to like learn a new rule, you're all set to go.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

That's great. We do love an ancient game. I I similar with the game like murderer. Like people pretty much know, you know, murderer, mafia. We all know how to play that. Walk around a room, eyes closed, yeah, shaking hands, somebody dies.

unknown 37:00

It's great.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Easy, quick play. You can even bet on it if you want to lose all your money.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

Oh, but you know who ha has lost all of his money? Joxer. Joxer. Should we get back to it? Thank you so much, Hayley. That was great. Thank you. Okay, so who have we found walking in the woods?

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Oh, well, it's even Gabby.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

We miss them so much. Uh Gabby has injured her foot again. Too much slipping around. She's riding Argo, elevating her ankle, and we're a little worried that Joxer's running late. Gabby's making fun of him for stopping and watching the grass grow. We hear this, but we hear the sounds of a fight in the distance, and our girls go to investigate. And we cut to Joxer getting wailed on by this casino security team.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

It was kind of the most brutal beating I think I've seen in Xena.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

I uh yeah, the tone in this episode is a little all over the place. Yeah. People go from like, ah, some goofy caper to like Joxer's dying. I know.

SPEAKER_01 38:06

I was like, oh, I can watch this with kids. And I was like, actually, I don't think I can watch this beating scene with Jobin.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

No, and Ted Raimi, he uh he plays darkness so I know it's always such a surprise because he's such a light character, but then we're like, ah, Joxer, but that's where I know with the comedians, man. They all have a darkness.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

Yeah. So they're beating him like almost to death, and it's terrifying.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

It's really scary. And we learn that this main security guy is named Leo, and he's Titus's son, and he's demanding Joxter give them back the money. Um, but he's Joxer's not talking, and I'm not sure if it's that he's like protecting Rafe and Eldon. He's like not telling. I think he said that he doesn't have the money, but he didn't say who has it.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Which I'm just like, man, he's a noble guy. He's a noble guy. He is. Genuine. So Leo pulls out a sword to kill Joxer, but guess who steps in?

SPEAKER_01 39:05

Oh, well, it's Xena and Gabby, of course.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

They're jumping in. Uh Zina whips Leo's sword out of his hand. Uh, the other guy drops Joxer, and all three of them run into the woods. Zina and Gabby pick up Joxer, do a little health assessment. He's gonna be okay, but they have to get him someplace safe to treat him. And Xena is gonna kill these bad guys because nobody messes with Joxer but her and Gabby.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

That's right. He's family.

unknown 39:44

Theme!

SPEAKER_00 39:44

The best theme that ever was. Never a better one. We cut to a tavern. Elden and Rafe are like practicing another scam with cards. We learn they've been partners for years, and we established that they like to bet against each other. And then Xena pops in is threatening them. She knew who they were because she saw that they had Joxer's stolen sword. There's like a quippy exchange, and I really feel like this actor who's playing Wraith would have been a better Odysseus, right?

SPEAKER_01 40:13

Oh yeah. Yes. I can't believe I mean so charismatic. Oh yeah. We're immediately drawn in. We can totally see why he's a con man because he's pulled us into his sphere.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

Completely. But there's also zero chemistry between them, which I love on this show. That they'll have like such charismatic people with like zero chemistry because Zina is just like untouchable by anyone but like Gabby and the gods.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

Yeah, we don't feel it on Zina's behalf. We're kind of charmed, but also fully ready for Xena to take charge here.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

Yeah, exactly. So she's like, you know, Joxar was nearly beaten to death because he was weaponless and ambushed. And then she's like, you guys better start talking about what all's going on. And she pulls out a knife, smacks Rafe's hand on the table, and she starts stabbing between his fingers at lightning speed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

She's doing that thing that we all tried to practice in high school using a butter knife. And she's not missing once, but she's moving faster than humanly possible.

unknown 41:14

I know.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

And Rafe's not even worried. And then she says, You're a betting man. Care to wager on how long it'll take me to miss?

unknown 41:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Yeah. And Rafe is like, I don't, but Eldon is kind of nervous. Yeah. He's a little scared. And he's like, he spills the beans.

unknown 41:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:33

He's like, we didn't touch him. He was just an easy mark. Uh they give her all the info on Titus and Leo like running the scam of stealing winnings back for the casino. And then Zina demands that they help her make Titus and his crew pay. If they don't help, she's going to turn them into the authorities. They'll get their tongues cut out, arms branded and jailed. And then Eldon and Rafe have a little side chat about teaming up. And it's clear Rafe has a huge crush on Zina. Oh, yeah. And Eldon bets 30 dinars Rafe can get her to kiss him because it's the 90s and that's where we're at. But like Zina is not going to fall for a small town scam artist. Oh yeah. You guys.

SPEAKER_01 42:12

It's not going to happen. But we can tell, like, this is he's a little scoundrel, you know. So he's like a scad, a scoundrel. You know, guy who does this on the regular. It's Lady in the Tramp energy.

SPEAKER_00 42:25

Yeah. Yeah. Like this might work on anybody else but Zena.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

Yeah. Anybody else is like, sure. Whatever.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Okay, so Gabby and Jox are tucked away safe in this like mystery temple. There's lit candles everywhere. It's dark. He's on a little gurney, unconscious. And Gabby's dabbing his forehead with a moist towel. And Gabby's feeling really bad about giving him a hard time. She considers him family. And uh Xina and Rafe and Elden show up, and Gabby's just like pointing fingers left and right. They left him defenseless. Like, you guys suck. And then Zina reveals this new plan to take Titus for all he's worth. And she's gonna cut these uh the con men in on half the winnings. And Joxar starts to like wake up, he's delirious, he's in so much pain, he's in shock. Poor Joxar and Gabby are trying to soothe him. Zina says to like go get an acolyte. And again, an unseen acolyte. I was like, Hayley's gonna love this. We never see a single acolyte.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

I just take notes for your own productions. If you have a temple scene where they're acolyte caregivers, you don't need them.

unknown 43:30

You don't even need them.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

They're gonna clog up those visuals. So just leave them out. Just leave them out. It's you know, it's just unnecessary.

SPEAKER_01 43:39

Just have Zina say, get one of those acolytes, quick.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

And she's like, he needs more Arnica, which he does, but you should not be putting Arnica on open wounds. Arnica only goes on bruises, you guys. My mom. Every time I have a bruise, my mom's like, Do you have any Arnica at home? I'm like, Thanks, Zina.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

Thanks, Dr. Zina. Dr. Zina. I think we see a little. Bit of um doctor/slash nurse Gabby here too. She's kind of definitely taking charge of the she's like a nurse practitioner in this situation.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

I was just gonna say fictioner Gabby. And then she's injured, she's like her ankle sprained. She shuffles off screen to go get some Arnica. And then Reeve goes over to Joxer, seemingly thinking he's unobserved. And he looks like he feels pretty awful about this whole thing. And he like tucks another blanket on Joxer and tucks his little toes in. And Gabby and Zina kind of peek in and share a look. Does Reef have a heart of gold? Can we trust him? We've been hurt by deep Vs and blue eyes before. Like, we don't know. We're not sure.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

We're not sure. Yeah. And we're we're also thinking to ourselves, that's sweet of him. And then I think to myself, how low is the bar for humankind that this man is putting a blanket on him? Who's his fault? It's beaten nearly to death.

SPEAKER_00 45:00

I think the bar is pretty low. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Our standards have been lowered. I won't be the angry feminist that I am in this moment, but I think we all know. We're appreciating it anyway.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

We're we're noticing that the bar is low so that we can appreciate this situation. So he's putting the blanket on, and we're like, he's not just a totally soulless creature.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

Our bar was lower for this guy. So we can we're raising a little. Yeah. So we cut to Zina practicing rolling the dice to get the number she wants. And this is controlled shooting or dice control. That's the technical thing. Exactly. If they had had a dice tower, someone should have told Titus to get a dice tower. Yeah, he should have been like 3D printing them. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

Down in his den. Get out that filament printer or UV printer. It's fine. Either one will work. You just need to print it out.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

And then carve your little like, no one cheats here. Exactly. So Rafe's obsessed with Xena. And he like wants her to be his gambling queen. Yeah. Zina gives her the gives the classic catchphrase, I have many skills. We all just, you know, worship her.

SPEAKER_01 46:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:15

And then he says, All right, correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the feeling that you don't like me much. And she says, Not true. I don't like you at all. Which reminds me of uh you and I have a wonderful little six-year-old friend who has like the bet one of the best jokes I ever heard. He's like, he'll go up to you and go, I don't like pizza. I love pizza. So there you go. Great.

SPEAKER_01 46:40

It's a hit every time.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

We love it. Rafe apologizes to Xena for their part, and jox are getting hurt. If they'd known this was gonna happen, he never would have fleeced him. And Zina says, like, okay, I, you know, you're saying all this, but I know you bet your buddy that you could score with me.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

And I don't, I can't, I don't know. I just don't know where his heart is.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

I know. Well, I wrote under his like apology, I wrote, OMG, he's such a con artist, Dr. Death. So I think right now I'm feeling like this is like Dr.

unknown 47:13

Death.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

I'm feeling like he's upping the charm. I don't think he's there yet. I feel like he's this is his usual, you know, pickup artist, con artist.

SPEAKER_00 47:26

I kind of feel like he lives life completely, you know, in the middle at all times. And he's like he's fully integrated his honesty and his scams. I feel like that's why it works for him.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

Because he's like, probably does feel bad about it, but it's like not bad enough to never do that again.

SPEAKER_00 47:44

Yeah, and at like any opportunity in this moment, if he can make 30 dinars, like yeah, he'll probably do that. Yeah. But if like you know, he kind of likes Xena, she seems cool, and she's also like the powerhouse in the room. And he can see like why would he he can't really out scam her. Right. So better just be honest with her. Yeah. That's yeah, like we're on the same page. Okay, cool. Perfect. Okay, so back at the casino, and the music is really good in this scene. So this is great.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

So like nice beats.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

We're all dancing. There's like a lot of mingling. I also appreciate the kind of crowdedness of the casino where there's like very concentrated attention and different points and people wandering between.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

Great. If you like this, you should definitely watch Star Trek Deep Space Nine. Uh-huh. At Quark's bar. Um, there's a lot of if do you know Dabo, the game? There's a lot of, yeah, well, there's a lot of gambling at Quark's bar. I don't know by who. Who would I don't know, whoever told you that. I gotta tune in. I gotta tune in. Okay, so Rafe is standing, Zina's like at the table. She's playing dice. But I was expecting her to be in a disguise, but she's just like wearing her warrior outfit, just like blowing on dice. True, I didn't notice that, but she does not attempt in disguise at first. And Rafe is standing like a little far back, looking very suspicious.

SPEAKER_01 49:15

Yeah, and she's like very conspicuously looking up at him a lot, but yeah, only the who cares house manager notices, apparently. But no one can figure out how they're cheap. We don't know. They only notice that she's winning. They don't notice that she keeps looking at Rafe and making significant facial gestures.

SPEAKER_00 49:34

Yeah, but and Lucy Lawlys this so cool. I know. I know she's like blowing on the dice in such a cool way, and she's like, Yeah, I'm winning, doing stuff, just like her entire body language, everything about her is just so cool. I know. We love her. She looks like she's having so much fun. Um and then the dealer, yeah, shares a secret look with the security guy. So they're like, they know that she's cheating. Right. So when we cut to the security guy going to Titus's office, he interrupts Titus, who's like admiring his own jewelry, this big ruby. And the security guys, sorry, boss, croup needs a new set of bones. Think we got a hustler, but we can't suss her out. And he, I think he's my scene queen because it was the most lackluster delivery of that live.

SPEAKER_01 50:19

It's like so rich in like the universe slang for like a hustler, but whatever. Yeah, casino.

SPEAKER_00 50:29

Just nothing, no like caricature, no like emphasis on any of the words. He's just like, sorry, boss, croup needs a new set of bones. It was amazing, loved it. It's great. So security and Titus go investigate Xena, and Eldon pretends to like be drunk, and he distracts two guards who are minding the office door, and Gabby sneaks inside. She runs right in. Runs in. And then back at the dice table, Zina's doubling down. Right's help, Rafe's helping her cheat, and she keeps winning. Uh, and then there's a crash in Titus's office, and security go check it out to find Gabby behind a curtain. And then the security guys threatened to kill her. Oh no, Gabby, what happened? But everything's okay.

SPEAKER_01 51:11

Zina comes in. Clearly, we can see from Zina that this was a planned situation, even though Gabby's playing it like she got caught pretty well. But Zina's like, no, this is just my assistant taking measurements for my new office when I win everything from your casino.

SPEAKER_00 51:28

Even this little trinket. And then she spins around. She's so cool again. Everything is so fun. She spins Titus's prized ruby and she's like just mocking him. And he calls his guards. There's a fight. Gabby's on one leg. Zina grabs Titus. He tries to escape. She puts the pinch on him. Um, and Gabby stops her from killing him. I think Xina might have. She's really mad.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

Yeah. Which is kind of also like another tone shift. Cause I you know, we're kind of in this kind of fun casino setting where everyone's using like 40 slang about gambling, and now we're about to kill someone again. But Gabby stops it. It's like, oh, Zina's really mad. Okay. All right. We're back to the surprise, just saying like, nothing but fives and like rolling the dice.

SPEAKER_00 52:21

Yeah. Now she's just like gonna murder the head of this whole operation. Okay. So then she's like, actually, you know what? I'm gonna make you suffer. I'm gonna take you for all you're worth. And then she unpinches him. He tries to buy her off as if Zena lives off the land. She doesn't need any of this. Yeah. Zina and Gabby like walk outside, and we learn that Titus was supposed to find Gabby. So yes, confirmed. This is all a plan. And then this is phase one of the plan. Oh, phase one and two of the plan are done. We're unclear what the rest of the phases are. Right. But they have some money to invest in the second or the third part of their plan.

SPEAKER_01 52:58

I will say, as they're exiting the like casino down a stone staircase, there is a very excellent miming of a failed sale that's happening in front of them where two extras are wordlessly offering something to someone, and then someone else shaking their head and saying no, and then they part ways just in time for Xina and Gabby to come right past them.

SPEAKER_00 53:22

Well, this is great because I did not have an extra Oscar for this episode. So I had missed this somehow. Yeah, this is when I was taking my notes. Okay, beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for presenting that. Okay, now Zina and Gabby are they have to get disguises, I guess. We don't know what for. Gabby's gonna go check on Joxer. Zina knows that Titus will have his son Leo stash that ruby somewhere. So she sends Eldon to keep an eye on where Leo goes with the ruby. And it's just like it's really a lot, a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 53:55

We're not following this any better than we followed that scam that Rafe and Eldon played on Joxer earlier. Yeah, it's yeah, we're just gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 54:05

We don't know where um the shell, what where the ball is under which shell. Exactly. This is a shell game for us. So the boys go off on their little tasks, and then Gabby turns to Zina and she's like, Rafe, huh? Kind of cute. Not too bad.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

It's like we're like so embarrassing. I know it's very cringeworthy. We're like, not really sure why this conversation is happening, given like where we are in the series, but this is like a one-off situation.

SPEAKER_00 54:38

Yeah, but I think this is so much of um like our 21st century viewing of this of where like Gabby and Zina's relationship isn't subject. It's subtext. Like it is just like clearly contextual. Yeah, like they are in love, they're in a relationship. So like in 1998, there was just so much shoehorned like hetero relationships for Zina that and they just like always had to make Gabby talking about a man that Zina was interested in. Yeah, right. It's so just to somehow hide it. It's completely bizarre.

SPEAKER_01 55:12

Like the girl talk is also just feels very unnatural in their context. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:19

Yeah. It's like, I mean, it with any of my dear friendships, like I would never like I've never had a moment like that with like you or like Mary or other people who would be like, oh, you like them, huh? Right. Like we don't do that. I know. And and like that's only ever happened with like just people who don't know you. Right. You know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 55:37

I've definitely had like random people be like, oh or maybe when you were like 13 or something like that, when you're like a kid and you're at the same school and you want to see if someone has a crush, or you're playing like a sleepover game or something. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But like unless you're actively playing MASH, it is not doesn't enter to a lot of no you know, it's yeah 20 somethings conversations. But whatever. So there we are. This is part of the part of the episode that like maybe doesn't feel quite as like continuous with the rest of our Xeniverse at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 56:13

No, yeah, and it's so funny because so often we can just like totally lose ourselves in this universe and have it be like timeless and present tense and like really read it with our you know 21st century lenses. Uh but whenever these kind of instances happen, it definitely always pulls me back to the 90s of like, yeah, okay. They they had some restraints, got it. Yeah. Um okay, so then so and we will continue that with now we're in a storeroom. Yes, right. And Rafe are changing into their disguises. Yeah. Rafe's pretending to be a pirate.

SPEAKER_01 56:44

And I was like, oh I did love his pirate fun, his really fun pirate imitation.

SPEAKER_00 56:51

And then Zina, for some reason, is like naked in front of him. As if she wouldn't know that. It was odd.

SPEAKER_01 57:00

It's bizarre because like it's something that you can imagine if there was no sexual tension between them. Yeah. Or if there was like a lot of sexual tension between them, but there's not a lot of attraction. I mean, obviously he's like attracted, but it's like he's also he's also like surprised and slightly put off by it. It's like sexual harassment in some way.

SPEAKER_00 57:27

A little bit. Like, yeah, because Zina knows um, she is so fully in control of her body, which is just something we respect so much about her. And she she knows what effect her body has on other people. Yeah. And she uses that for power often in situations where it will like benefit her. Right. So it is just unbelievable unbelievable to me that she wouldn't know what was happening here. Right. And that she wouldn't know that he had a crush on her.

SPEAKER_01 57:52

Also, this shot is like shot really weirdly, so it looks like she's just standing naked. You know, like those of us who've gotten changed before, you usually don't like stand with both feet on the ground just totally naked for most of that time period.

SPEAKER_00 58:07

No. And if you're changing into a dress, you like put it around your neck and then you pull the other thing up underneath.

SPEAKER_01 58:12

There's many ways to change without being naked. Anyone who's changed at the pool or at the beach knows you can certainly change without being fully naked. But whatever. So this is like another kind of and like to Rafe's credit and the character's credit and the actor's credit, he's kind of like, oh, like what? Okay, I'm like very holy hair. No idea what to do with this situation.

unknown 58:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

And then oh, she asks him to like hand her a hat, and then he like tries to be a little flirty, but she's not interested because she's like, she's not a flirty girl. Yeah. So I think he's like trying, he's like never met a girl like her before, you know. So he's just like none of his usual tricks will work. Right. And then she like hurts his feelings and kind of feels bad. We can't tell who's scamming who. Everyone's being weird, and he's like, she's just like hyper-focused and on task, and he like doesn't understand her hyperfocus.

SPEAKER_01 59:09

I mean, it is a weird scene because like it's very funnily enough. Where are we? Where are we? But at the end of the scene, like I did feel a little sympathetic to him because he's like extremely confused at the end of this scene. And like, yeah, she's like calls him nosy and he's like, uh, I have no idea what's going on because you were just standing in front of me naked, but you like don't want to flirt, but like also I I just don't know what to do. Yeah, so it's like a very their whole like dynamic is confusing.

SPEAKER_00 59:45

Totally, totally. And okay, then we go back to the temple and uh we kind of see at the altar of this temple there's this like female figure in a cloak with her arms out. And I feel like it's like Demeter or maybe Hecate, because if this is a place where like Zina and Gabby feel safe, I think it would be one of the kind of like three fates, one of the like um three faces of the goddess kind of thing. So I'm feeling like it's the mother goddess, is where she is.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:15

It definitely has that feel. It's a beautiful like altar, it's stone, and you can there's a lot of candles in front of her, like on a table. And then there's she's like backlit by the daylight. So it comes out in kind of a ray of light around her. It's very beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:31

Such a beautiful, lovely, safe place. We love that there's no hierarchical religion in there trying to tell us how to practice. Yeah, it's just we're just a safe place. Love it. Um, and he's awake. Uh he's trying to get up, he wants to fight Titus. He doesn't want anyone to get hurt for him. Uh, Gabby is trying to soothe and reason with him. And then she says, What are you gonna do? Bleed on them, which is a Monty Python reference, I believe. Oh, I love you bleed on me.

unknown 1:00:59

Me too.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:01

Okay, then we cut back and check in with Titus in his office. He's insulting Leo. Um, he's a really awful father, and he's kind of he's figured out that Zina's looking for revenge on Joxer for Joxer, and Leo's got to keep looking for Joxer to kill him. And then he we confirm that Titus wants Leo to hide the ruby. So Zeno was right on everything. Then we go back to the casino. Eldon watches Eldon is watching some wrestlers. Gabby hobbles up to him to see if he needs a break.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:32

And this is the moment when I realized I have no idea what this plan is. Like, what does he need a break from?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:41

I think just watching, I had to watch this episode. Oh, from uh he's waiting for Leo to make his move.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:47

Yeah, but why would he? But yeah, like I'm like, why does he need a break? I wrote, oh no, because Gabby should like probably be hanging out with Joxer. She should be able to do that. That's an important part of the plan.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:58

It seems it seemed like maybe they were trying to have some like romantic interest between her and Eldon, but that's not the slightly deep V.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:06

It's like the mini, mini romantic interest. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:11

But I just don't think that's gonna happen between zero charisma. It's not happening, and Eldon doesn't need a break anyway. But Zina's heading for one.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:22

Oh my gosh, a heartbreak. Oh. And he tells Gabby all about the bet. And he's like, Rafe is not genuine.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:33

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:34

He's just doubled the bet. He feels very secure that Zina's gonna kiss him.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:40

Oh my god. And Gabby's like, wait, but what? And then Leo exits the building with the ruby. Eldon and Gabby sneak after him. Costume change.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:50

Oh my gosh. And it turns out Gabby needed to leave anyway because she's in costume. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:57

How would they have how would they have found her to say that Leo? It's the plan makes no sense to me, but yeah, we are not in the streets. We're not in that's okay. It's okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:07

They've got some really elaborate costumes. I hope they spent most of their money on these costumes because they are great. They are not just rags that they've sewn together, they look like nice clothing. So Gabby and Rafe are dressed up as like a rich couple who've recently been robbed.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:24

Yeah. And Eldon is the thief who has robbed them, and he has kind of pushed Rafe down to hurt him, and he's grabbed his little pouch of money or whatever. Okay, so this is like a really convoluted vignette. So I think we're just gonna race through it, right? Um so Zina's dressed as a village wench. Uh she's a like has a really dry, blown-out, ashy blonde wig, off-the-shoulder peasant dress. And Xina ends up tricking Leo into letting her hold the pouch with the ruby, and she swaps it out for a fake pouch and keeps the ruby, and then she's had stuffed them all in her in her cleavage. So it was very distracting because she knows how to use her body to distract people. Exactly. And then Leo runs off thinking he has a bunch of stolen money and the ruby, but really he has nothing. Okay, so next griff is they're going to steal Leo, even though he was like just there. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:20

We don't Gabby's like, I don't even understand the plan anymore.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:24

No, she doesn't. And it's just so unnecessary, but whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:27

They're like, we've just got to check on Joxer first. Yes. And uh uh he's gone. We thought he was sleeping. Gone.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:35

No, no, no. And Zina, don't worry, she checked with the acolytes.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:40

They can't and they didn't see anybody coming in.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:46

She checked in with the backstage acolytes.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:50

They were gone. I think um, I think they might be my scene queens. Well, that we'll we'll argue. Like we got a lot. Present in my memory of this episode. So Eldon comes in. He throws a fit about Gabby and Zina and Joxer like not being professionals. Um, everyone's fighting. Eldon wants to drop the con and blow man, but Rafe wants to help Joxer and finish the con.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:12

Yeah, and Gabby's like, I I just should have hog tied him when he asked me to.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

Yeah. But I'm like, why did why would you hogtie him? Okay, so he he left on his own. Yeah. He wasn't stolen. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:25

I think is where we're guessing he left to go try to fight them. So yeah. The trouble in paradise here in the temple. They're all arguing.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:36

Rafe and Elden then head to the casino to see if Joxer went there. Zina and Gabby are gonna check the woods, meet back in the tavern. Rafe and Zina share a meaningful good luck. And as Zina and Gabby take off, Eldon thinks like all this fluff is for the Zina kisses bet, but Rafe is like, bet's off. And they fight. And then Eldon can tell Rafe's falling for the biggest con. Of all love. Love. She's the hang. Zina. We've all been a little pissy. I mean, we all love her. So, okay, the bet stands, but Rafe's not happy about it. So Zina and Gabby are in the woods with Argo. Zina says, if Joxer did head for town, five will get you 10. He's headed this way. And that's my favorite. Five will get you ten. Get you 10. Yeah. The best. I like that. That's great. Gabby's writing Argo. Her ankle still hurts. She's telling Zina she doesn't like Rafe anymore. And she says, a guy like that's always on the make. The lingo is so fun. And I love thinking of just like all the boomers watching this, just loving it. That's great. Zina and Gabby talk about Rafe and Eldon's Zina kissing bet. They're both annoyed about it. And then they're interrupted by the casino security dragging a gagged and bound joxer through a clearing, kicking him. Zina's not happy about this. She runs in the fray. Two of the security guards are swinging their swords, rushing her. She knocks him down. She jump spins all the way over to Leo, lands in front of him, and they're fighting. And he gets a lot of punches in. I thought that was surprising. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but then she beats him up, wins. Gabby hobbles over, helps Joxer up and then ties him. Zina checks his eye, and Dr. Zina says he's okay.

unknown 1:07:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:34

They trust up Leo. And now it's time to take down Titus. Yeah. And then we but first we go to the storeroom at the tavern again. A candle is lit. It's just Rafe and Zina. He's practicing like a card trick from behind her ear. And he's like, hold still, relax. This won't work if you're tense. And like, I really I hate when they're in the storeroom together. I hate this dynamic of some random guy telling Zina that she's too tense and just needs to relax in this like super restrictive, um, patriarchal straight washing way.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:08

Nobody our age enjoys that trope in 90s TV where there's a man telling a woman to relax and giving her a massage. None of us like it. I don't think we liked it then. If anyone feels tempted to give someone else a massage while telling them to relax, yeah, just get them a gift certificate to a massage place.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:32

I know. And just like, I don't know, just identifying this out in the world when like, because this this happens in real life. Like, you know, just these dudes say this kind of shit to a women who are empowered.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:43

Well, it's this, it's I think part of it is this type of trope that was so common in movies and TV where like women were really uptight, and all they needed was someone to tell them to relax. And then they were like, oh, that's a great massage. But that's not how things work. Nobody wants a massage from somebody who's telling them to relax who's not like been invited to give them a massage.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:06

I mean, just no one in general ever wants to be told to relax. Yeah. That doesn't help anybody. It's really infantilizing, it's really shitty. And like nobody, like she just met this con artist in a bar. And he does not know her better than like her girlfriend Gabby. You know, like we're not gonna believe that. Um, but also I feel like what makes this show work so well is that Lucy Lawless, like, she's such a power host, it like doesn't even touch her or the character. Yeah, you know, like even when I was watching it as a kid, I was just like, this feels weird. Right. But like never like her power was never diminished at all by like any of these people doing anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:45

So you don't you don't ever see her go like, uh, thanks for that great massage. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:50

She's always just like, this is weird.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:52

And then she goes and kills someone with her hands. Please just hide it in my hair.

unknown 1:09:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:58

Oh my god. And then it always just makes them look foolish. I think it was such a nice life lesson as kids to watch that kind of thing and be like, hey, you might encounter this in the future and remember that you're a strong, powerful person.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:10

And you do not have some guy you just met. Tell them that that's a nice thing to do when it's really not a nice thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:16

Exactly. Great lessons. Thank you, uh lady writers. Okay. So we go back with Titus in his office, talking about his plan to play a card game with Xena and win. And then someone steps out of the shadows in his office. Oh. Yeah. It's is this where I am? Are we at Eldon? Yeah. Eldon. He's betraying them. And he tells Titus that Wraith is helping Zina and says he'll help Titus beat them both for a cut.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:48

Ugh, double. He's gonna give them some inside help. So we're really worried now because we know they had conflict before.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:54

Yeah, we don't we don't like this. So we go back to the casino, disco balls in rotation, and Xina enters wearing the ruby around her neck, which looks so good on her with that outfit.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:06

It fits everything. It you know, matches her outfit really nicely. Ugh. She should just keep it.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:13

Just keep it, Zina. Rafe, Gabby, and a trust-up Leo walk up to Titus and his crew, and Zina proposes a single game of cards between her and Titus. Winner takes all. If Titus doesn't play, she'll kill Leo. And he's like, sure, yeah, whatever, kill him. I don't care. And calls her bluff.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:31

Which is tough because we know as viewers that she probably does not want to kill Leo. He's not, she's not gonna like kill someone in cold blood.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:38

No, yeah. Yeah. Oh, then he's yeah, Titus is like, I am in on your whole con. I know what's up. And then Elden steps out from another shadow, reveals he gave them all up. Rafe lunges at him, furious at being double-crossed. Oh my god. Then Leo, Leo scurries over to hide behind his dad. And Eldon and Rafe fight, and Eldon stabs Rafe. Blood is pouring out. Pouring out of him. He falls to the ground dying. Zina pulls into her lap. She is. We have I was not expecting her to be this distraught. And he's like, shh, what did we say about staying detached? That was pretty that was a pretty good line, though. And then they smooch while everyone's watching. And Rafe dies in Zina's arms. This episode is completely all over the place. Don't they kiss? He kisses her then. Oh yeah, they kiss, so yeah. They smooch. Yeah, they smooched and he dies. Yeah, he kisses her, right? Yes. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:37

Significantly.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:40

And then uh Zina and Gabby are like, okay, we gotta take his corpse out of here. We gotta give him a funeral pile.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:47

I gotta get my funeral dirge warmed up. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:51

We know Zina's gonna be. And then Titus is like, nope, nope, nope. We have a game to play. I want my Ruby back.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:59

I'm gonna play on top of this cold dead corpse.

unknown 1:13:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:03

Can't do anything first.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:06

And he's like, with Rafe out of the game, you know, I can win. And Gabby's like, don't listen to him, Xena. Let's just take Rafe's body and get out of here. And Zena's like, no. Rafe would have wanted me to have won this card game. She's really emotional. She seems pretty bereft. You know, it's surprising. Yeah. And Titus sees weakness.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:30

Well, he knows he thinks he's gonna win. He knows that she was gonna cheat. He takes a card out of her hair. Mm-mm. And they're ready.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:38

So we cut to the game. The game's set. The game is set. We're at the game table. Dealer is shuffling the cards. The cards look really cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:45

Yeah, I like the shuffling techniques.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:50

You still have the technique of just holding two halves of the deck and shoving them together. Oh, that's just a bad as bad as I've ever got. Good as I've ever got. I can try the flippy D flip card shuffle from two sides, but lately I just lay them all out on the table, mix them around, and then shove them back together. That's totally effective. That's great. It works. It's a great move. Let me tell you, it works.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:17

Cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:17

Alright, so they they have some better dealing going on at this card table.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:22

We have piles of dinars on the table and the ruby. Zina takes her hand. Uh we don't really know what game this is. It seems like some kind of version of poker. Right? Right. We're not really.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:33

Yeah, we're trying to get to some kind of full house or full boat or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:40

Titus shows his hand and he's like, I've got a full boat, warlords over heroes. And he moves to collect all his winnings. But little does he know, Xena lays out four aces. Oh my gosh. Titus is furious. He grabs the ruby necklace, flips the table. Dinar is all over the floor. Gabby tries to hobble away, but Titus puts a knife to her neck. Is Zina gonna get to him in time? Or get to Zina get to Gabby? Oh my gosh. Who knows? But someone else is. Someone else is! It's Ruth! He just died. He pops up, grab the knife out of Titus's hand, and everybody fights! Oh Gabby's smashing dudes with her stick, hopping on one foot. Rafa's fighting security. Zena's flipping around tables, smashing and bashing. One guy gets one.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:41

Right in the face.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:42

Goofy.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:43

It is goofy. Goofy beating. She was gonna kill him earlier, but now we're back to goofy fight.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:49

Titus can tell he's losing. Um and then Eldon joins the fight. JK is on their side the whole time. What? Zina flips up and onto the chandelier, flips down to grab Titus by the scruff of his robe, knocks him out. Mm-hmm. And they won. Zina and Rafe do a hand clasp. Party hand clasp.

unknown 1:16:10

They did it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:13

Then we go back to the unnamed temple. Gabby's laying flowers to the unnamed goddess. Everyone's catching Joxer up on all the cons. Well, Zina's buckling Joxer into his armor. Zina's like, okay, okay, let's get back on the road. Someone get some bandages and salve to bring along.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:31

Call in the acolytes. Just go, yeah. Acolyte chamber and get some bandages themselves, please.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:38

I imagine them all wearing um kind of mime-like, all like a white powdered face. Yeah. Some robes. Oh, I imagine silently. Yeah, that's my imagining of the acolyte. Okay, so Zina, Gabby, and Jox are heading out. Rafe wants to follow. But Eld and Zina's like, you coming? And he's like, Yeah, just a second. Eldon's like, let her go, man. You won the bet. You guys smooched. And then I was wondering if this moment, like, did Xina think that since they'd smooched, he was gonna come with them now. They'd like changed his trajectory of his life and he was part of the crew. Or is he, is this like how big of a moment is this? I couldn't tell.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:18

Yeah, I felt to me, the tone of it felt like maybe they're on to the next town or something, or maybe just even leaving the temple, but kind of like friends leaving the restaurant at the same time, you know, like not necessarily continuing on the same path, but departing together.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:37

That's what I thought. And then when um when Elden's like, let her go, man, like the third time I watched, I rewatched it this morning, and I was like, Oh, I wonder if this was like a bigger moment than I thought. Yeah. And if he was like, if they're leaving the restaurant, are they all going together or are they going their separate ways? Yeah. So, but Rafe kind of disagrees. Oh, yeah. Eldon's like, you won the bet. Right. And Rafe is like, no, I kissed her. She didn't kiss me. Right. And then he tries to give Eldon some money, and Elden's like, no, you're just setting me up for something else. Like, I don't know what you're up to, man. And he leaves. And then I'm wondering, I think these were Joxer's winnings, also. Like this was his money he'd taken from Joxer. And I'm like, and I don't know if he was trying to con anyone, but Rafe ends up dropping the pile of coins at the foot of the goddess. So it felt like, yeah, all of the feels much more poignant at this moment if they were Joxer's winnings, even though he should have just given them back to Joxer. But like, I don't know, whatever. And so he turns around and runs into Xena, which is awkward. And they have an awkward little, like, oh hey, um you just just heading out.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:53

He's like, yeah, just wanted to say thank you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:57

And then he like kind of wants another smooch, but there's no more smooches. No. Maybe we'll see each other again sometime. Yeah, maybe. And he leaves. And she sees that he left the coins at the altar. So maybe he's not that bad a guy after all. And she smiles knowingly. She's happy with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:13

The end bye. Yeah. Well, he he redeems his earlier self. We don't think he's necessarily a changed man. But he may have, you know, moderated. He may have a deeper appreciation for what should be his life's work.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:33

I think so. Yeah, I think he's gonna keep conning, but I think he's going to maybe con on the side of good. Yes. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:41

Uh what did Zena learn, Haley? Oh my gosh. What did I was troubled by this question this time. I'm trying to figure out what she learned. I feel like I guess, like I mean, she already knows like a Tolica. She already knows some like neutral, good con men in her life. I don't know. Did you have a Xena learns? I mean, I feel like she really learned how much she cares about Joxer. Well, that was my second thing that like as Gabby says, he's really part of the family.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:20

Yeah. I mean, her like bloodthirst to avenge him, like that was like primal. She was like, I'm going to not just kill everyone, I'm going to destroy everything they've ever loved. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:35

I was like, oh, you love Joxer. Really do love Joxer.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:39

Um, and I think she learned that she still knows how to scam a scammer. I think she kind of relearned that for herself. What do you think she taught us?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:47

Well, she taught us a lot about whether you have to have the acolytes be on stage to really feel their presence.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:55

And you tell them.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:59

They're just as powerful, invisible as they are visible.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:04

We love this temple. We love the temple. She taught us some cons. She taught us how to win against the house. That we shouldn't trust random dudes who give shoulder massages at bars.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:14

That's a big important lesson. Very important lesson. Recognize that anyone who even seems like they might like you might be acting on a bet. Yeah. That's just kidding.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:26

That's sad.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:28

Just kidding. But then they really like you in the end. Just like all those movies say.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:34

Oh, yeah. Just like don't trust people who are telling you that you're too hyper-focused and you need to relax. Yeah. Like, yeah. None of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:43

And don't give your trust easily. I think that's a that's something that we could take away. Or your heart.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:50

Or your heart. Keep it close.

unknown 1:21:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:59

Who's your extra Oscar?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:01

Extra Oscar? Well, I have actually two. So I'm going to give it to the miming people. Oh, wordlessly and yet very animatedly offer something to someone else and then have them refuse it and walk away and part ways so that you don't hear their voices at all, even though they're directly in front of the camera as Zina and Gabby are leaving. The other person I was considering is one of the women around the table when Zina's winning. And she's like, Great job. Yes. She was good too. That's nice. She was so excited.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:37

I the one person I did have was the security guy who gets tossed on the roulette table and the wheel keeps hitting his face. But that was like that was a focus. It wasn't really an extra. Yeah. You picked some really good ones, Haley. I think those mimes, though. Those mimes.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:51

We have to choose the mimes.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:53

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:54

Okay. Sybil award. This is really good. Oh my gosh. So Cameron Rhodes, Eldon. Yes. Was also in season one, episode 12, Theware of Greeks Bearing Gifts. Oh my gosh. De Ephibus. He was another deceitful character. It's a wacky Cybil Award. He was like definitely been a main character in another episode. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:15

He was so great. He looked familiar.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:17

Well, we'll get to why else he looks familiar. So Justin Curry played Leo, and he was in season two's The Price as Gakug, the captured member of the horde that Xena tortures. Oh another main character. And we'll meet him again in season five. I'll give it to Justin Curry. Because like he that what a range. Yeah, really. That man has.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:41

And such central characters in both cases. Really important. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:45

Okay, who's your scene queen?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:47

Well, scene queen, I think then I'm gonna put the scene queen on the woman at the uh cards table.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:55

Do you love the lackluster henchman? Well, I did, but it didn't catch my eye. You didn't. Oh. I'll have to go back. We're watching such different things in this episode. We were scanning.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:06

I'm happy to give scene queen to the lackluster conversation then.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:11

If you get a chance to watch it again, it was really impressive.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:16

Yeah. No delivery at all. Remember it. And remember the kind of jumping out of focus that I had during that moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:25

But I think you and I, what we do agree on would be giving it to the acolytes.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:29

Oh, yes. Absolutely. They stole every single scene they were mentioning. When are we gonna see these acolytes? I keep hearing about them. When are they gonna come out of the shadows?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:40

Never.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:41

Are they spirits?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:43

Maybe. They really stole all the scenes from me. Um okay. Were they on Star Trek? Oh. Patrick Fabian, Rafe, was on Voyager. Uh and Google's AI description of his performance was pretty funny, so I'll read that. Uh Patrick Fabian, uh, third season episode Favorite Sun 1997, playing the character Taymon, a humanoid infected with a Theresian retrovirus, who is transformed into a male Theresian. In the episode, Tayman returns to the Theresian homeworld, where he is married to three women who kill him for his genetic material, leaving his body reduced to a withered husk. Classic. I was like, oh my god, so dark. Yeah. So much charisma. Okay, were they in Lord of the Rings? Oh. Boy Howdy. Um, I don't know if we talked about this before, but Cameron Rhodes, who plays Eldon, was in Fellowship and he plays drum roll. Farmer Maggot. Farmer Maggot! Yes. I was like, he looks so familiar. So in the movie, Farmer Maggot is the character. He's the hobbit. Yeah, and he and he tells the Nazgul, there's no baggins around here. They're all up in Hobbiton. Yells at Marion Pippen for stealing his crops. I mean Oh my gosh. And then Sam's like, have you been in Farmer Maggot's crops? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:19

Just carrots and cabbages. So great.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:24

That was really, really a dream come true. Defining role. And then um tangentixation show. Yeah. Patrick Fabian, Rafe. He's been in a million things. Like, dude is very so charismatic. He was really good. And he seems so familiar to me uh because I'd been watching a lot of Better Call Saul, the Breaking Bad spinoff. Oh. And he plays Howard Hamlin, the um kind of co-head of the um lawyer company. Law firm?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:56

Oh yeah. I remember him. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:02

I haven't watched that show in a few years, but it is a good one. And he was charismatic there too. But it's also interesting because, you know, on Better Call Saul, when we first meet, so when we first meet uh Patrick Fabian in this episode doing the con, it's like the exact con that Jimmy does in Better Call Saul.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:21

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:22

Yeah, the pigeon drop is like just a con. We do a lot. It's crazy. And then and when I watched this episode, I was like, oh hey, I know this bit. Like I've just watched it on Better Call Saul.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:30

And I was like, oh, because he's the guy. Oh my god! And he's like, the actor's like, oh, I know this con. Totally. This is from season three, Xena. King con. King con.

unknown 1:27:44

Oh my god, I love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:45

Uh okay, what's your what are your favorite Gabby moments? There are some good ones.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:50

They're so good. I mean, my favorite is when she just very conversationally says that she should have taught Hogtied Joxer when he asked her because. It's like it's a key line because then you know that he escaped of his own volition. Yeah. But it's also like, what? Did he ask her to hog tie him? I don't even remember that.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:13

When did that happen? Maybe it's acolytes heard it.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:17

It's like a reference to something that is not, it's like a very strange thing to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:23

And it's referenced so casually, no one reacts to it except for being like, no, no, Gabby, you didn't have to hog tie him. That's my favorite Gabby moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:34

This is really good. So funny. I like that she, since her ankle was injured in this episode, she was like hopping around on one foot the whole time, like knocking people around with her staff. I like her disguise. I like whenever Gabby gets to do like a theatrical scene. She's really good at, oh, my husband has been injured. Someone go to the hospital. Um, and I also like when she was having girl talk with Zina and was like, Wraith, huh? Kind of a bad boy. Just your type. And I was just like, Gabby, I mean, what are you saying? Oh, all right. Great. Well, if you like what we're doing here, you can like, subscribe, follow, leave us a review, share episodes with your friends. You can go to our website inatimeofancient gods.com and check out our Patreon where we're sharing all of our research references for everything. And stay tuned for our next episode, season three's When in Rome, which is the return of Caesar, Carl Urban. We're kind of back to our historical fiction Xenoverse timeline. Oh my gosh. And I'm really looking forward to the research. It's gonna be super fun. Exciting! So thank you guys, and until next time. Hooray! Yay! Stop. Stop. What would you call your horse? Stone's throw.