#27 - From Fundie Christian to Witchcraft with Katherine Eady!

This week in The Astro Study Room, Ember is in Greece so Jordan is joined by our lovely coven sister, Katherine Eady! Katherine was raised in a homeschooling, conservative, and fundamentalist Christian household. In this episode, Jordan interviews Katherine all about her journey to witchcraft, her relationship with spirit, her experiences courting, and we also make some jokes about the Duggars! This was a great interview, and I am so excited for you all to hear it! Be on the look out for Katherine's own podcast coming out soon!

We will see you back in the Study Room on June 23rd where we will be continuing with our deep dive into the zodiac signs with Cancer! (Ember's sun sign!) We will see you all then!

Transcript

Welcome To The Study Room

Jordan 0:18

Welcome back, star students, to the Astro Study Room. I'm Jordan, a university librarian by day and a dedicated astrology student by night. Our goal for this podcast, as always, is to feel like a group of students of all levels gathering to explore and reflect and connect with the cosmos. No matter where you are in your spiritual or astrology journey, learning is a forever game, growth is cyclical, curiosity is sacred, and we are so happy you're here to wander the universe with us. These are all Ember's lines, and I feel so strange saying these without her. But as she would always say, if you would like, grab your notes and your pens and bring yourself and an open mind to our conversation today. Whether you identify as an astrologer, a witch, a wizard, a mystic, a spiritual seeker, or simply a curious human, you belong here. This is a study room for all of it and for everyone. Every other Tuesday, we will be exploring different astrology and spiritual topics, sometimes teaching, sometimes reflecting, sometimes interviewing, and sometimes just chatting and wondering out loud together. If you're into it, we would love for you to subscribe, leave a review, and just know you can always come hang out with us in the study room. You can also follow us at the Astro Study Room on Instagram and TikTok. And as a reminder, the Astro Study Room is live on YouTube, so if you're more of a visual person, you can check us out over there. In the show notes, you will find ways to connect with me and Ember. I offer astrology consultations, and Ember runs Ember Faye Magic. Go sign up for her newsletter, take her free quiz on discovering your sensual shadow archetype, and see what else she is offering. Today, I'm going to be interviewing one of our Coven sisters, Catherine Edy, who was raised fundy Christian, and we connected very quickly on this conversation and this topic, and so I'm excited to get to publicize a lot of this conversation. So buckle up, star students, class is officially out, and the study room is in session.

Meeting Catherine And Her Chart

Jordan 2:30

Yeah, so for everyone who doesn't know, which I already said this in the intro, you are a Coven sister of me and Ember. So we've known you for a little bit now. And to introduce some of your background, you were raised in a Christian fundamentalist family, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:44

Yes, I was.

Jordan 2:46

And before we get into this hot conversation that I'm excited about, uh a tradition we have started is with all of our guests. We ask you if you would like to share your big three in your chart, or if there's anything else in your chart you want to talk about.

SPEAKER_03 2:59

Oh, sure. So I am a Leo sun, Leo moon, Sagittarius rising. So I am a lot of fire energy.

Jordan 3:08

And what's your what's your experience or knowledge with astrology? Um, very limited, pretty much what I have learned from you and Ember. Do you with what you do now, how do you resonate with Sagittarius and Leo?

SPEAKER_03 3:21

I feel strongly that they're those energies are within me and they have been stifled by my environment so much. And I feel like I'm just starting to actually feel the way that they naturally present in my personality and in my life. So it's it's a really interesting journey with astrology.

Jordan 3:41

And to put a little bit more context into you and your chart, how old are you? I'm 29 right now. So you are going through your Saturn return, you're coming up towards a climax, actually. Let me see where Saturn is right now, because you might be at your climax. Yeah, so you are this is the the Saturn return is a point where astrologically this is like your initiation into actual adulthood. Um, and so it makes sense that you're kind of at the beginning of this transformation of this new cycle. You're right, you're soon gonna be starting your second cycle with Saturn.

Growing Up Fundy And Homeschooled

Jordan 4:48

So tell us whatever you want to about how you were raised. What is your family like? How many siblings do you have? All the juicy stuff. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

Okay. So, um, of course, as you said, I was raised fundamentalist Christian. Um more specifically, like the closest denomination that would align with the teachings that I was raised with would be like fundamentalist Baptist Christian. I was raised in a smaller family than is average, I would say, among fundamentalist Christians. Um, I only have a couple of siblings, but that was more because my family became more conservative as as we progressed, as we got older. As we didn't progress. Yeah. True, as we did not progress. As we progressed. My parents say now that they wish they would have had a lot more kids because of the whole quiverful thing and you know a blessing from the Lord.

Jordan 5:52

Well, for anyone who doesn't mean who doesn't know, what does quiverful mean?

SPEAKER_03 5:56

So quiverful is this idea that you allow God to determine how many children your family has. So you don't use birth control of any kind, you don't do any kind of family planning, and in some more extreme cases, you don't even necessarily try four kids. You're just kind of existing, and if you get pregnant, you're you're gonna have a baby, and that's it. Wild.

Jordan 6:20

You and I connected pretty quickly because I have an obsession with the Duggars, and your experience is very cult adjacent, as I like to say. Did your family know about the Duggars?

SPEAKER_03 6:31

We did. I would say I was more aware of them, probably than anybody else in my family. Um Yeah, I'm the youngest sibling by quite a few years, and so my older siblings were out of the house pretty much by the time I was like eight. My experience was very similar to an only child in a lot of ways because I was so young when they moved out. And my parents were not, well, they were anti-TV for one thing. So, like, we didn't have a television where we could watch, and they were very kind of anti-internet in a lot of ways, too. So I didn't really have access to the internet until high school age when I started doing some of my homeschool courses online, and so I had to have a computer, and so I kind of started becoming aware of things in the outside world a little bit. Um, and that was kind of when I discovered the Duggars, you know, because I was a young Christian kid looking for role models to look up to and you know, looking for my own version of pop culture.

Jordan 7:34

So you you really liked the Duggars at the time?

SPEAKER_03 7:37

I did, yeah.

Jordan 7:38

I did too. I mean I didn't I didn't know them too well, but I was like my mom was really into them, and so I I would watch them because they were on, and they definitely like and there's a documentary about it now, but they definitely like put up this front of being so perfect and happy, and it makes you want what they have because they look so rich, happy, successful, clean, happy, bright. But I I just thought they were fascinating. And then everything came out with Josh Duggar the first thing in 2015 when he was caught cheating and we learned that he had molested his sisters when they were kids and a babysitter. Um, and that's when I would like had a deep dive into the Duggers of like I was just interested in the psychology of this. And so it it like I guess I have more questions about how you were raised, but first I want to ask two. You mentioned you have siblings who are a lot who are a bit older than you. What was the dynamic like with your sisters? Uh with your do you only have sisters?

SPEAKER_03 8:27

Yes.

Jordan 8:27

Okay, what was the dynamic like with your sisters?

SPEAKER_03 8:30

Yeah, so um, with them being so much older than me, when I was really little, it was almost more like they were second parents to me. Um, it was kind of the stereotypical Christian, but it also happens in in non-Christian families too, but the parentification where they were responsible for me in a lot of ways. And so it was almost more like I didn't make the connection in my little kid brain that they were my sisters until I was like six or seven. Like it like the relationship was just so different than a typical sibling because they were so much older and took care of me so much. Um, so it's definitely more like a second parent. But then in the broader family context, I saw my sisters go through a lot of conflict with my parents. My parents were kind of becoming more conservative as my sisters got into their teen years, and so things that I consider now to be perfectly normal, average teenage development behavior was considered very rebellious and um anti-Christian by my parents. So there was a lot of conflict um between my older sisters and my parents. And I think that resulted in me going opposite direction and trying to be like the goody two shoes, the following all the rules, the never causing any um any issues with my parents because I didn't want to face the same kind of conflict that my older sisters did.

Conviction Culture Shame And Worldly Fears

Jordan 10:06

Yeah. So what was your spirituality like, let's say when you were like 13, 14, 15?

SPEAKER_03 10:12

That was about the age that I was really starting to like make my parents' faith my own and going from just this general, oh, I'm a Christian, I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, to this is now a very personal faith. I'm, you know, communing with the Lord every day, you know, being convicted about things that I'm doing wrong. Oh, like what? Like I even when I was really little, my dad certainly would have preferred that my mom and I wore skirts all the time. We didn't wear them all the time, but about the time that I was, I would say 13 or 14, I was really convicted about wearing pants. And so I quit wearing pants completely. I wore skirts all the time, even when swimming and working out.

Jordan 11:04

I understand this idea in Christianity of like being convicted doesn't, or correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't necessarily mean that I don't know if this is just fundy language, doesn't necessarily mean that you think everyone has to do it or they'll go to hell, but it's more of you personally have been convicted with I need to do this. Is that right what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_03 11:25

Yes, it's a very nuanced topic because I think if you really question people about it, they would probably have to say, like, yeah, you can be personally convicted about something that other people don't necessarily have to abide by, but also just the judgmental nature of the world that I grew up in.

Jordan 11:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

Sometimes it leads to judging other people for not living the same way that you're living.

Jordan 11:50

That's where I was going with it. Was like, how did you then see other people, other women who wore pants?

SPEAKER_03 11:55

Were you Oh, they were they were very worldly.

unknown 11:58

Worldly.

Jordan 12:00

They were very worldly. Tell me what worldly means in this context.

SPEAKER_03 12:04

Um, it means that you are basically more caught up in the things of the world than you are the things of God. So, like maybe you're still a Christian, but you're not really walking with the Lord like you're supposed to.

Jordan 12:17

Now, something I don't know if like listeners are gonna find this as funny as we do, but something you and I have talked about is like what a conversation would have looked like with you and I at the age of like 15. So, what do you think would have happened if we had talked? And let's just say, so at 15, I wasn't spiritual anymore at this point, but I had been. Um, but I was very, very progressive, very leftist. So, how how would a conversation have gone between us at 15?

SPEAKER_03 12:46

Um I was very shy at that age. Um, so I think probably I would have just been so terrified that I would have like run away. But if if for some reason we found ourselves in a situation where we were talking, I definitely would have been trying to convince you that my way was right and that you needed to you needed to get saved.

Jordan 13:10

We had this great conversation one time. We were talking about um evangelizing, and I was asking you a lot of questions about how that works, and like because you you told me you had like a class or like it was like part of your high school curriculum to learn how to evangelize, and you had said you probably would have been too scared and shy to try to evangelize me, but I you would have spent the next three years like cursing yourself for not doing it. I would have felt very guilty. How much of your energy went into fear, shame, guilt?

SPEAKER_03 13:49

A lot of it. A lot of it, yeah. Like anytime anything went wrong in my family, in my community, in my church, it I always felt like like I didn't pray about it enough, or this is the Lord's punishment because I'm not, you know, living the way that He wants me to live, or something. Like it it was a lot of shame and guilt and carrying the the weight of the world on my shoulders in a lot of ways at a really young age.

Jordan 14:14

Was that something like is it taught to take that on individually, or was were there times at all where you'd be like, this is like my family's fault, including me? Or was it always like, did you always feel like it's me? Or is it because as a uh I don't know, is it because as a Christian you are supposed to be the one to save the world or or what?

SPEAKER_03 14:34

It's not directly taught, you know, like there's not I I never sat in a Sunday school class and my teacher said your fault if it happens, it's your fault. Like it's not that direct, right? It's more of a mindset that evolved over the years just because of other teachings, like you know, you're taught that prayer changes things. And so if you're if you're praying about it, it's gonna change, right? Something's gonna happen. And also the prayer of a righteous man is what changes things, and so if your prayers are not changing things, it means you're not righteous. And it's just like this cascade effect of all these different teachings that

The First Cracks In Certainty

SPEAKER_03 15:12

add up to it's all my fault.

Jordan 15:15

So then what were the what were the good parts and the best parts about being Christian, being this spiritual?

SPEAKER_03 15:23

Two things come to mind when I think about the good things, and one of those is the community, because it is very much like I mean, it's kind of like now if I saw a witch out in the wild, you know, I would be so excited and like want to talk about it. If you ran across somebody out in your everyday life that was a Christian, it was very exciting and like you have something to talk about and connect over, and then the smaller community of your church and people kind of taking care of each other, and you know, they would always do like the meal trains when somebody was sick or if they had a baby or something like that and providing food for the family. So there was a lot of sense of community. And the other thing that comes to mind is the sense of peace that I had, even though there was all this shame and guilt around it, there was a sense of peace that we had it all figured out. We had the answers that everybody else was searching for. And that brought a sense of certainty about the world that I don't think I'll ever feel again because I know now how much I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:29

And I just don't think that I'll ever be at a point where, oh, I have it all figured out. And I think that's a good thing. You know, I think it makes me a better person and a more empathetic person, a more open-minded person. But at the time it was very comforting to feel like we know it all. We know what's, you know, we know where we came from, we know where we're going when we die. And those are kind of the two big questions that everybody's always asking.

Jordan 16:52

Something else that we've talked about too. Where I grew up, which is in West Virginia, in the US, I had the assumption that everyone was Christian. That was definitely my default. Unless I asked you, I just assumed you were Christian. But I also know through you and through the Duggars that I guess specifically fundy Christians maybe talk about being the oppressed people. Did you not feel like everyone was Christian? Or were you just more Christian and that was the right Christian?

SPEAKER_03 17:26

Um I definitely did not think that everyone was Christian. I had a very narrow definition, an idea in my mind of what made someone a Christian.

Jordan 17:35

Oh, what was that? What made someone Christian?

SPEAKER_03 17:38

Well, there was this set of like beliefs that you had to hold about like God creating the universe and man, you know, sinned in the Garden of Eden, and that caused us to be in rebellion against God, and then God had to send his son Jesus to die on the cross, and we have to believe in him and you know, repent of our sins and all that. There's all like the theological stuff, but also with the specific flavor of Christianity I was raised in, there was a lot of lifestyle stuff, you know. Like if you, you know, if you drink and cuss, you're definitely not a Christian, even if you say you believe in God and believe in Jesus. If you, you know, watch certain movies and listen to certain music, you're obviously not a Christian. And there was a lot of more external things that could make someone not a Christian, regardless of what they said they believed.

Jordan 18:26

I'm sure, and this, these are the questions that I'm sure gets a lot of people to question their faith and everything. But a lot of that stuff, though, that lifestyle stuff is not in the Bible, right? Right. So how I'm maybe as a kid you probably just didn't question it as much, but like how did you or anyone else rectify these these rules that were not in the Bible?

SPEAKER_03 18:48

A lot of it is kind of justifiable when you pull certain things out of context in the Bible. And I've heard people say before, like, you can use the Bible to justify anything, and in a lot of ways that's true because like it's a it's a big book and it says a lot of things. It's a lot of murder, I remember that. So you can find a verse to support a lot of different beliefs and ways of of life, and that was honestly what was a big catalyst for my deconstruction was when I started looking into why I was. I wasn't even looking into why I was a Christian, I was looking into why I was the specific kind of Christian that I was, and why I wasn't, you know, Church of Christ or Catholic or Methodist or any of these other brands. And they all said the same thing. They all said, our beliefs come from the Bible. Our beliefs can be traced all the way back to Jesus. You know, our beliefs are supported by these verses. And that level of certainty among so many different groups that believe such different things really led to me feeling like nobody really had it figured out at all. So, how old were you at that point? When I got to that point, I was in my early 20s, maybe like 22, 23, something like that. And what is going on in your life at this point? That was pretty shortly after I had gone through a failed courtship.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

And courtship, I love it.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

And had gone through a really extended period of depression and anxiety and panic attacks, kind of related to that, but also some other little things that were going on in my life at the time. And there there is a couple of years in my early 20s that I have very few memories because I was going through so much just mental health stuff. And around the age of 22, 23, is really when I started coming out of it and becoming more engaged with the world again. And so that's when I kind of started really questioning things and researching a lot.

Courtship Rules Power And Naivety

Jordan 20:54

So I have more questions about all of that. Can you define, define what a courtship is and what what did a courtship look like for you?

SPEAKER_03 21:01

Yeah, so a courtship, kind of the most basic definition that I was taught growing up was that it was dating with a purpose. So like you're so you're dating someone as far as like getting to know them and you know talking to them, but it's with the purpose of marriage in mind. It's never about having a good time, it's never about going out on dates, it's always about kind of this checklist of things that this person has to fulfill in order to be like a godly spouse. And if they meet all of those and you kind of get along personality-wise, then they're probably the one God has for you. And so they're it was a very intentional and very high pressure kind of relationship.

Jordan 21:50

High pressure, interesting.

SPEAKER_03 21:51

How did you two meet? We actually met um through my parents' business. Um, he worked for them for a period of time. And that was how I met him.

Jordan 22:02

Were you excited to be courting? You're you're you're like 19, 20 at this point?

SPEAKER_03 22:09

I was I was 19 when the relationship started and I've I felt like I was an old maid. Like I I was never gonna be a good thing.

Jordan 22:14

That's what I was thinking. I was like, because at this point in a Christian's in a Christian woman's life, you have been raised that you know you will graduate and there should be an engagement ring. So yeah, did you did you graduate and you were like time to get married and have some kids?

SPEAKER_03 22:29

Absolutely. Yeah. There there was one uh experience I remember when I was I was still 18. I hadn't even turned 19 yet. And I was literally so desperate to find a husband because I thought that was my only purpose in life that I like cried myself to sleep because I was like, like, I don't know what I'm doing wrong, Lord.

Jordan 22:49

I can't even brought me my husband. I feel I always like I know that you and I have this relationship where like we've talked about it, it's fine. I always feel so bad, like laughing at all of this. It's so it's just so wild to me. Like our lives were just so different. And we didn't grow up like like you know, we're on the same side of the US. Like we didn't grow up that far from each other, but just like it is. I mean, you and I are of different cultures, it feels like.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Oh, yeah.

Jordan 23:14

It's wild. I was like, I mean, 17, 18, I was in bed like, I can't wait to go to college, and one day I'm gonna get my doctorate, and I may never get married. Who cares? I'm my own woman. That's so wild. How long was your courtship?

SPEAKER_03 23:30

Uh, it was a little under a year, I think like 10 months or so, but we had definitely already talked about like wedding dates. So was there an engagement or no? No, not officially.

Jordan 23:41

And so that's a that's a long time for a courtship with no engagement, right?

SPEAKER_03 23:46

Yeah, and and the main reason that it was that long, honestly, was because my parents started having issues with him, even though they had like approved the courtship at the beginning, they started having some issues with him.

Jordan 23:57

And so Daddy, I love you.

SPEAKER_03 24:00

Exactly.

Jordan 24:03

Oh my gosh. Were you all like, this is the man God has for me? I know it. Yes. Okay. All right.

SPEAKER_03 24:10

So of course I had I, you know, I had really developed feelings and like an attachment to this guy. So absolutely.

Jordan 24:17

So, what was this guy like? Was he like a perfect Christian? What was your relationship like while you were recording?

SPEAKER_03 24:24

He was definitely a Christian. He actually um was a preacher, not full-time as like his career, but he would preach kind of on the side, I guess. Um he was a lot older than me, um, to a degree that now, like I'm now the age that he was when we recorded.

Jordan 24:43

Wild. That is wild.

SPEAKER_03 24:45

Yeah, looking at it now from this perspective, I'm like, that's a little creepy because when I look at 19-year-olds now, I'm like, they That's a child! Yes, like you're barely out of high school, you know nothing about life.

Jordan 24:58

And to be honest, you truly knew nothing.

SPEAKER_03 25:00

I mean, no 19-year-old does, but like you were especially sheltered to an extreme degree, more than your average, you know, high school graduate. Like, I I was so sheltered, I knew nothing about how the real world worked, and so it's a little weird to me looking at it now. Honestly, in some ways, I give him some credit for opening my mind to some of the negative things that I was brought up with. Um was he fundy? I think he was courting, so I guess he was, but not quite as extreme as my parents. Like he So this is like Ginger and Jeremy a little bit. Yeah, yeah. So like he would do things like go to a movie theater and he would, you know, go the theater.

Jordan 25:43

He'd go down to the movie theater.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

I love it. Yeah, and you know, he played video games and he had a TV in his house and things like that. So, like, yes, he was very extremely conservative Christian. Um, he at the time was living with his grandparents. Okay. They were kind of getting older, and in some ways he was kind of caretaking for them a little bit. Um, so he didn't have completely his own place, which was that was the only reason that we were ever able to spend time together away from my parents, is because his grandparents were there.

Jordan 26:22

Yeah, so you never spent time alone. Were you on the were you allowed to like talk on the phone alone?

SPEAKER_03 26:27

Um, we weren't big phone talkers, but we did text.

Jordan 26:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 26:32

Um I was always paranoid that my parents were gonna like read our text messages. I was about to say, did they? Not as far as I know, but that was always in the back of my mind that they were gonna like confiscate my phone and read all of our conversations.

Jordan 26:45

Did you you don't have to tell me what was in it, but like, did you even talk about anything that was like incriminating?

SPEAKER_03 26:53

Sometimes we would. I would always go back and delete the messages after. By this time I was becoming a little bit sneaky and rebellious.

Jordan 27:02

Okay. So at this point, you're an adult, you're working towards marriage. What is what are your expectations of marriage? What do you know about marriage? What what don't you know that now you know? Um, for anyone who doesn't know, you are married now.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

To someone different, by the way.

unknown 27:19

What?

SPEAKER_03 27:20

To someone different. Yeah. Another man. Obviously. I would say I was very naive when it came to marriage and relationships. I it's hard to put myself back in that place because there was so much that I didn't know. And I feel like I've been so overwhelmed with information in the last decade of my life that it's it's hard to remember what I didn't know then.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

Um I do think that I had this idea in my mind that if you just lived a holy enough life, that everything was gonna be perfect and fine, and that you know, you would never have any marital issues, you would never have any, you know, crises basically. Um almost like a prosperity gospel in a way, not in the sense of like you're gonna have a lot of money, but just in the sense that if you follow God's plan, everything's gonna work out.

Jordan 28:15

Okay. So at this point, you're 19, you're in your courtship. Are you questioning your type of Christianity at this at this point, or that's later?

SPEAKER_03 28:25

I think this is probably when the first little seeds of questions were planted because he had some different views than my family, um, and I didn't feel like he was living in rebellion against God. And so there was this sense of trying to reconcile like what my parents were telling me and teaching me versus how he lived his life, but I still thought he was a good Christian. And if I ended up marrying him, you know, obviously I was gonna have to submit myself to his way of living a Christian life. So there the seeds were starting to be planted then, um, but I wasn't fully like researching other denominations because he was still Baptist, like my family, so it wasn't it wasn't a huge gap between, you know, what we what we believed.

Jordan 29:12

At this point, are you do you have free reign of the internet?

SPEAKER_03 29:17

Yes. Yes. At this time I was able to access the like I have a smartphone by this time, so I could access the internet without someone, you know, looking over my shoulder.

Jordan 29:27

And did that make you nervous? Uh having access to the internet? Like, I guess were you afraid of temptations? Were you afraid of seeing things you weren't supposed to see, or were you just like thirsty for all of it?

SPEAKER_03 29:41

Oh, I was very scared of saying things I wasn't supposed to see.

Jordan 29:46

Okay, okay. And you know, we talk about the Duggars a lot, and recently, in the time frame that we are filming this in, one of the Duggars, Joseph, was recently arrested, and there have been conversations that have come out with uh him and his wife, Kendra, and just you know, there's always drama to talk about with the Duggars. And something that came out recently was Michelle and I guess Jim Bob always give the kids the kids, oh my god, I guess they're adults at this time, but um always gives them like instructions on their first night, their first wedding night. Were your parents going to do that? Do you know?

SPEAKER_03 30:25

I have no idea what their plan was if I had gotten married in that like 19 to 20 age range, because at that stage they had never had any conversations with me about anything sex ed related. Um what did you know about sex? By that time I knew a little bit more because I had done the research myself, but before the age of like 18, I knew nothing.

Jordan 30:51

That's just it's so wild to me. And it's especially wild to think about like I know that your parents believe that they were doing the correct thing and that that there wasn't malicious intent behind it, but just the thought that like they set you up with a 29-year-old man when you knew nothing. That's wild, and like it's so dangerous. Yeah, like how does that sit with you now?

SPEAKER_03 31:15

It's icky, it's very it's like it's kind of tempting to feel like what was I thinking? But then when I take a step back, I'm like, I didn't know, you know, like at the time I didn't know. And with all the issues that my parents eventually had with this guy, none of them were ever how old he was. None of them were ever the gap in our relative knowledge of the world or knowledge of sex or knowledge of relationships or anything like that. It was never about a power imbalance or anything like that. So it it does just feel very gross to look back on.

Jordan 31:56

Do your parents have an age gap?

SPEAKER_03 31:58

No, they're pretty close, they're only two years apart.

Jordan 32:00

I just can't imagine being okay with that. Like, yeah, that that that is that's one of the wildest parts. It's like your parents put you there.

SPEAKER_03 32:10

Well, actually, you just brought back a memory, and at one time, shortly after I started courting this guy, my mom actually said, I always knew that you were gonna end up with somebody a lot older than you.

Jordan 32:23

Oh my god, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_03 32:26

I think that in context of conservative Christianity, I was viewed as a very mature child.

Jordan 32:34

I was gonna say, is it because you didn't have a re rebellious stage yet at that point? Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:39

So I was viewed as this very like grounded, level-headed, mature for my age, could carry on conversations with adults when I was a really little kid.

Jordan 32:48

I bet that made you feel really good about yourself.

SPEAKER_03 32:51

Yeah, yeah. I always thought that I was, you know, special.

Jordan 32:55

Right, right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Wow. So, okay, so you are how does this courtship end?

Breakup Fallout And Family Control

SPEAKER_03 33:02

Um, it ends badly. Basically, I was put in a position where I had to choose between my family and him. Um, and I felt a little bit because my parents had all these issues coming up with him that they didn't like, and at the end of the day, really what they didn't like was that he was causing me to question them in some ways.

Jordan 33:22

Um this sounds very Jim Bob.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

Yeah. And so at that time I did not have enough independence. I don't know what the right word would be.

Jordan 33:32

I didn't are you living with your parents at this point?

SPEAKER_03 33:35

Yes. Okay. Yeah, I was a stay-at-home daughter. I did not think that I was supposed to move out until I got married. Wow. So you you didn't have a job? No, I didn't have a job. I had no way of supporting myself, nothing. And so I had to choose between them and him. And I prayed about it, and it felt like my heart was being ripped out of my chest. I ended up choosing to break up with him so that I could live what I felt like was what the Lord was calling me to do, which was obey my parents.

Jordan 34:06

It's just so fascinating to break this down because it's something that like now you slash we can like look back on and we can laugh and be like, how silly it was, but also to a young 19, 20-year-old, uh, a romantic at heart. Because women are raised to be romantic and again so young, like to romanticize getting married young, and then also to romanticize doing the right thing or whatever in the name of doing the doing the hard thing in the name of God, which is what you were doing. Like it's just it's just so deep. Like the feelings about yourself, the feelings about this guy, the dynamic between your parents and this guy, and you should get a documentary. How does he take it? How does a guy take the breakup?

SPEAKER_03 34:49

Badly. I've had no contact with him at all for years, so like I don't know where he's at now or what he's doing, or you know, I don't know how he would look at it now. Or like 10 years down the road. I don't know if he would look back at it and be like, yeah, that was dumb. I shouldn't have been dating somebody that young. Yeah, because he's gotta be almost 40 now. Yeah. And so I don't know, I I have no idea. I know that for a while, because we did talk briefly after the breakup, and it was it was kind of weird because he was kind of the one that initiated the conversation after the breakup, but then he was also the one that pulled back again because he said that I had like too much baggage. I think he said that bitterness didn't look good on me. Oh my god. Um Christian slander. Yeah. Because I like by the time we talked again, I had, you know, it had been a little while, and so I had had some time to process what had happened, and I was getting into that stage where I was questioning my parents' beliefs and what I had been taught, and I guess he didn't like that. I don't know, which makes me feel a little e even a little ickier about the age gap because it makes me feel like he didn't want me questioning things.

Jordan 36:07

You know? Yeah. So it feels like extremely groomy. Like any 29-year-old man with a 19-year-old girl, you know.

SPEAKER_03 36:15

I'm very glad that did not work out.

Jordan 36:18

Yeah, yeah. I guess your parents got something almost right there. Yeah. Um, you know, I don't think I knew that you didn't have a job. I I know like I would never expect or be shocked that a 19-year-old can't like support themselves financially, but I don't think I knew you didn't have a job. I know, because I know I know where you work now, I know you've also been a piano teacher. So did you and were you never going to have a job? Like when you when you were 19, did you never envision having a job, or when did you start teaching piano?

SPEAKER_03 36:45

Actually, I had started teaching piano by that stage, but we're we're talking about like five people from church. So we're not talking about like like a We're talking dinner money, yeah. Yeah, I'm we're not talking about a job. Like I might have enough money to put some gas in my car, you know, that's about it. So I had already started teaching piano, but the plan, what you know, what I thought was gonna happen was that I was gonna get married and my husband was gonna support me while I was, you know, a stay-at-home homeschool wife and mom. Like that was the that was the plan.

Jordan 37:20

And then you bought a house on your own, right? Yes. That was just you, that wasn't even your husband yet. Correct. Yeah, so snaps for that, because that's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 37:30

I do live in a very low cost of living area, so make it work for you, honey.

Jordan 37:36

Okay, so you are you're broken up now. You're 20 at this point? 21?

SPEAKER_03 37:41

Yes, it was it was shortly before my 21st birthday, but I yes, I was still 20 when we broke up.

Jordan 37:48

Okay, so you you're questioning things, you're questioning your type of Christianity still. You're mad at your parents, you love the Lord. What's next?

SPEAKER_03 37:59

So there was this one point about six weeks after the breakup happened, that this really solidified my path toward deconstruction. About six weeks after we broke up, my grandmother passed away. And uh this was like the grandmother that I was most attached to. And so there was all of this heavy grief, obviously, that I was going through. But what really uh I feel like set me on the course to leaving Christianity was the way that my parents treated me regarding the breakup while I'm going through all of this grief with my grandmother. We were in this period of time between the breakup and when my grandmother passed away, and we knew that she was getting bad. Like, you know, we were like calling family members, like you need to come visit her, you need to come see her. We know that this is gonna happen soon. And during this period of time, when we are fully expecting her to pass anytime now, my dad literally sat me down one night and was like, This is not okay that you're this upset about this breakup. This is what the Lord wanted you to do, this is what your parents wanted you to do, so you should be happy about it. And we are gonna sit down every night and go through this massive list of reasons that I have written down why you should be happy about it until you decide that you're happy about it. Oh my god. And it just felt so emotionally abusive in a lot of ways, because like you're not even allowing me time to process my grief before you just come like attack me for having this rebellious spirit because I'm not happy about something that would make anyone sad. Yeah, because I'm human, literally. Yeah, regardless of the situation, or you know, even even now that I'm really glad that relationship didn't work out, I still understand why a 20-year-old me was very sad about it. Absolutely. And so it just felt like there was no compassion or empathy for what I was going through. And I feel like that was if I was not gonna deconstruct before, that was what led to me deconstructing.

Grief As A Turning Point

Jordan 40:04

Little did your father know. So you're grieving, you're really angry at this point. You're also really, you know, you're sad, you're grieving, and you are you recently had your big breakup. What are you doing with your faith? Are you researching? Are you praying? Are you meditating? What are you doing?

SPEAKER_03 40:24

At this stage, in in like the one to two years post-breakup and post my grandmother passing away, I'm too overwhelmed emotionally, mental health-wise, to really think too much into it. And I'm basically leaning into my faith as hard as I can. You know, I'm trying to rely on the Lord to get me through this really difficult time. And for a period of time that worked, but then when the natural healing process starts after the breakup, and you know, as I start to come to terms with my grandmother being gone and all that, it's not enough anymore. And like I have to know why is it that the Christians in my life are the least compassionate toward me? Why is it that this Christian world that I grew up in is providing me no support during this really difficult and challenging time?

Jordan 41:26

Did you know anyone who wasn't Christian?

SPEAKER_03 41:29

Of course, I had come across people who weren't Christian in my life. I had never been close to anybody that wasn't Christian. But in the wake of the breakup, I did pretty quickly realize that I was not going to be able to continue living with my parents because I knew

Work Moving Out And New People

SPEAKER_03 41:45

that I was never gonna be able to fully heal. And I was I I knew that our relationship would be permanently damaged, like beyond repair, if I had to live with them every day. So I started trying to make a plan to kind of move out so that I could have some space to figure things out and heal. Did they support that? Did they have oh no, okay, absolutely not?

unknown 42:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 42:09

Um, but part of that was obviously getting a job. And with you know, absolutely no experience and only a high school education, the only thing that I could get was a waitress. And I waitressed for quite a while, and in that line of work, you meet a lot of people that are different than you. And some of the people that were the least religious were some of the nicest people. And so that was really eye-opening for me because I had been taught, you know, that people who aren't our brand of Christianity, they're just, you know, these godless heathens who have terrible lives and they're broken and they're, you know, all these things, but they're just normal people who have full lives, you know. They have their own path, they have their own beliefs, they have their own humor, you know, they have all the things that I have just in a different way. And so that was really eye-opening for me to actually interact on a personal level with people who weren't raised with the same brand of Christianity that I was. When do you move out? It was about two years after the breakup. Um that's a long time.

Jordan 43:20

I mean, I I get it, it takes a while to save up the money, but that's a long time having to do with your parents.

SPEAKER_03 43:25

Yeah. And I wasn't making enough money as a waitress to be able to move out, so I had to wait until I could get another job that paid just a little bit more. Did your parents support you getting a job? No.

Jordan 43:35

They were so like what did they want you to do? Like, I guess keep meeting guys?

SPEAKER_03 43:39

They either wanted me to get married and be a stay at home mom, or they wanted me to stay with them and take care of them as they got older. Those were the two paths.

Jordan 43:48

And was that like explicitly told to you?

SPEAKER_03 43:50

Yes. They told me that they would pay me to continue living with them.

unknown 43:57

Okay.

Jordan 43:59

Wow. Okay. So you you're move you've moved out now. You just moved out. Are your parents mad? Very at this point are they expecting like at this point you've been saving up. Are they did they know it was coming, I guess?

SPEAKER_03 44:14

I think I mean they knew it was coming, but they weren't happy about it. Did they help you move out? No. No. I mean when it came time.

Jordan 44:22

Did anyone help you? Like like did you have friends? Period. I guess like yeah, well, I don't think we've talked about this part. Who who were your friends and what were your friends like? Were they all?

SPEAKER_03 44:33

I didn't have I didn't have close friends at this point because my close friends growing up had been from church. And at this point, everybody at my church thinks that I'm like going off the deep end, like I'm losing my mind, I am becoming a heathen, I'm you know rebelling against my parents, and so I'm really disconnected from my church community. Um, and I haven't had time really to develop any kind of community or or friendships outside of that.

Jordan 45:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:01

And so I'm really alone at this point of my life. Yeah.

Jordan 45:04

So are you questioning? Like, do you feel pretty strong in your resolution that you're meant to do something different? Or are you regularly questioning, Am I doing this wrong? Should I go back to what I was doing before?

SPEAKER_03 45:18

There was a lot of uncertainty and wondering if I was, you know, this rebellious heathen that I was being painted painted as in my church community. I do think I pretty quickly realized, though, that I didn't want to go back to that, and that I wouldn't be happy or fulfilled if I did. Um, I think it's like the more freedom I gained, the more I realized how much freedom I had been missing and how good the freedom felt. And so I would never want to go back to the lack of freedom.

Jordan 45:55

How did it feel? Because I think like Of course, we have to acknowledge like the insane amount of bravery it takes to step away from this and to to step away from your community into the unknown, into I mean unknown period. Like that, that is scary. But you don't have a lot of money, you're losing family support, you losing friend support, you're losing the church community support. In the name of freedom and in the name of this new this new path that you have found that you know right now feels good or feels like what you are called to do. But like, how does that feel? Like at the time, could you acknowledge this is a brave thing to do? At the time, was it just scary? Was it just exciting? Was it liberating? Was it exhilarating? Was it just frightening? Like, how did it really feel in the moment?

SPEAKER_03 46:49

I'm a very visual person, so I always have these images in my mind when I think about periods of my of my life. And that period of my life has always felt like I was at the bottom of a well with no rope, and I had to literally claw my way out from the bottom of the well until I could see daylight at the top. Like it was it was incredibly overwhelming. It felt like it was never gonna happen. And when I finally moved out, it was like I could breathe for the first time in years.

Jordan 47:23

So I'm picturing with this well situation, like I'm picturing because the the questi I guess the part thing is that like you could choose to stay in the well. You could choose to not like you don't know what's on at the at the top of the well. You can see there's a light, but you don't know what's in that light. Your everything you know actually this kind of goes into like Plato's cave story, but we'll do that some other time. Um everything you know is in this well. You see this light, you don't know what's there. You know it's you know it might be impossible to get to that light. So why do it? If you do like what did you what motivated you to go towards that light?

SPEAKER_03 48:00

I felt like I was gonna drown if I didn't. It truly felt- It was a little like do or die. Yeah, it felt like my only choice. Like, no matter how scary it was, no matter how hard it was, like this is the only way I'm gonna survive, is if I do this.

Jordan 48:16

And so you moved out, you've jumped out of the well, and it's a bright, cheery, warm world or whatever, and you you're saying you felt free. What else? What else is going on at your life at this point? How else are you feeling, and what's next?

SPEAKER_03 48:31

This period of my life is a lot of it's a lot of research, it's a lot of figuring out what I truly believe apart from my parents, apart from the church that I grew up in. Are you s at this point, are you questioning Christianity period, or still just the type of Christianity? Still just the type of Christianity, and it's it's kind of a I feel like it was a period of time that I was kind of redefining my faith, but I wasn't leaving my faith. And I was becoming a lot more progressive in my Christianity, but I was still very Christian. I started going to a different church than the one that my parents went to. And it was still like by, I mean, by my standards, now it's still an extremely conservative Christian church. Um, but it was far more progressive in the sense that the women wore pants and most of the women worked outside the home, and some of the kids went to public school. So at this point, are you 23? Yeah, kind of in that age range. Okay. And so even though that it's still a very conservative church, it's a lot different than what I grew up with. And so I just I I felt like I was just exploring my faith for the first time on my own without the expectations or the the influence of my parents and the beliefs that I grew up with.

Jordan 49:58

What's

Josh Duggar News And Losing Faith

Jordan 49:59

like the what's the first snap in the maybe I'm not Christian?

SPEAKER_03 50:06

That happened when the news broke about Josh Duggar.

Jordan 50:12

Yes! The first time, the 2015, like the the cheating one or the molesting one?

SPEAKER_03 50:19

No, so the cheating one, that all kind of came out, and even even the situation with him and and what he did to his sisters when they were kids and stuff, that all kind of came out during that period of time when I was going through my whole courtship and breakup and my grandmother passed away and all that. So I was not real plugged into the outside world at that time. I was so I was struggling so much myself. I was kind of unaware of all of that happening until several years later. So when I really started questioning Christianity as a whole was when the news came out that he had been arrested for possession of CSAM. And I my I didn't immediately jump to, oh, that happened, so I'm not a Christian anymore. Like it wasn't that direct, but I started following the case because I, you know, I had followed them when I was a teenager. I really looked up to their family, and kind of as a result of that, I also found out about the other things that he had done, you know, with the cheating scandal and everything else that had come out a few years before. And so I'm really kind of morbidly fascinated with it in the sense of like, how could somebody that I looked up to so much end up here, you know? And so I'm following the case really closely, and I, you know, I'm watching all the YouTube videos and the commentary that people are doing on it. And one day this video popped up as a suggestion on YouTube because I had been watching a lot of videos about about the case and the trial and all that, and I clicked on it, just you know, looking for an update on the case as a whole. And the guy that was doing the video was starting to kind of steer the conversation into a commentary on conservative Christianity and how that could have contributed to or at least kind of provided this perfect environment for a predator like Josh to flourish and to get away with his crimes for so long. And I found myself, you know, kind of nodding along and agreeing with him. And then he said something else in the video that immediately made it clear that he was an atheist. And I didn't know that before. Like when I clicked on the video, I had no idea that the guy doing the video was an atheist. And I literally, when when I when I realized that he was an atheist, it felt like my heart dropped into my stomach because I was like, I just agreed with an atheist.

unknown 52:54

Oh God.

SPEAKER_03 52:56

Who am I? And so that like it's it seems like such a silly little thing now, but it really was the first time that I even acknowledged to myself the possibility that I didn't believe in Christianity anymore. And it was so terrifying that I immediately went through and like deleted all of my YouTube history and blocked his channel. And like I didn't, I didn't want to deal with it. I couldn't deal with it at that point. Yeah, I didn't want to see it, I didn't want to think about it. And so for a little while, I just kind of ignored it. I'm trying to think when the next time was that I really revisited that. I didn't fully allow myself to really explore it until I met my now husband. Because when we met and we started dating and we started having all of the conversations that you have when things start kind of getting serious, I realized I was gonna have to figure out what I believed.

SPEAKER_00 53:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:52

And come to find out he had very similar questions and beliefs that I did, where he wasn't so sure that Christianity was, you know, the one and only way.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:05

And that just provided kind of a safe place and a person that I could talk to about it. Because up until this point, I have I really haven't talked to anybody about my changing beliefs because it's just not acceptable. Like questioning things, ask, you know, asking Did you talk to people online at all? No, I watched a lot of YouTube videos and you know, read Reddit forums and stuff like that, but I I didn't talk to anybody.

Jordan 54:28

I think I struggle to like really put myself in your shoes and to to really understand what that feels like. Because I like I can picture, like I said, because I didn't we haven't talked before until today about like, you know, who were your friends. That like that that just never came up, I guess. But to be slowly losing them and not have, you know, replacements lined up. Like it it again, yes, the the loneliness for sure. And then also, yeah, not to have anyone to bounce these ideas off with or to talk about it. I I really struggle to imagine what that feels like.

SPEAKER_03 55:03

It was very isolating and and overwhelming, and I think that's probably why I just immediately shut it down when that thought first occurred to me. Because it it felt like too much to deal with, completely alone. You know, like I nobody in my family even knew that I was questioning the type of Christianity that we believed in, much less, you know, here I am now agreeing with an atheist. Like that just she's gone off the deep end, everyone. Yeah, it was too much. I couldn't deal with it.

Jordan 55:36

So he your your husband, he wasn't raised fit funny Christian, right?

SPEAKER_03 55:42

And he went to public school, he went to public school and he was raised more what I would call mainstream Christian. Um and by I mean the region that we live in, most Christians are conservative Christians. So his family, I would still call them conservative Christians. But on, you know, on the spectrum, you know, if you've got your progressive Christians and your conservative Christians, my family is down here and his family was like here. Yeah. Okay. So it was it was a lot more of an open-minded

Dating Her Husband And Letting Go

SPEAKER_03 56:18

lifestyle that he grew up in. And his family also kind of ran into some personal issues with their church, and so they had kind of stopped attending church weekly when he was like a teenager, and so he had been out of church for quite some time by the time we met.

Jordan 56:35

And you're like 24 now? Yes. What do your parents think of him? Of uh, what do they think of dating? You're dating, you're not courting.

SPEAKER_03 56:42

Oh, they do not approve.

Jordan 56:46

So you're dating, you finally have someone to talk about with these things and to bounce ideas off of and to just have these out loud reflections with another human, then what?

SPEAKER_03 56:56

It kind of gets to a point where I have to acknowledge to myself that I don't believe anymore. And I had I had been there deep down for a long time, and I just had not had the courage even to admit it to myself because it was such a big thing to let go of these very foundational beliefs, and it's it's very different to go from Christian to not Christian than it is going from conservative Christian to progressive Christian. Because like that's more of like an external how do I relate to the world through my faith. But going from Christian to not Christian is like, okay, I'm saying that I don't know that an all-knowing, all-powerful God created the universe 6,000 years ago. Like that's a fundamental belief. It's a huge part of your identity, yeah, that shapes everything in my life. Yeah. And so let go of that was such a big thing that it it was like a whole event unto itself, and it was almost like an out-of-body experience when I first admitted it.

Jordan 58:06

So at this point, you two weren't married yet, right? Yeah. Did I know you said he was also questioning? So at that point, was he already like, I'm not Christian? Did one of you do it first?

SPEAKER_03 58:20

Pretty much. He he was okay, he was totally fine with me being Christian because he thought that I was when we first started dating. You know, he he knew my family, and he he was under the impression that I was still very conservative Christian too, and he was okay with that. But it we kind of had a conversation one day where he sat me down and he was like, I need you to understand something. Like, we're starting to have feelings for each other, and this is kind of starting to get serious, and I need you to understand that I'm never gonna be the person that goes to church with you every week because I don't really believe that the Christianity that we grew up with is the answer. And I think that Christianity is weaponized in a lot of ways, and I don't see myself supporting that. I don't, I don't necessarily not believe in a God, but I'm just never gonna be the person that goes to church every Sunday with you. So you like that's something you need to be aware of before we get any more serious with this because I know how important church is to you. And I was like, actually, now that you mention it, now that you say that, actually, I don't really want to be in church every week either.

Jordan 59:38

All right, so something I've actually been wanting to ask this whole time, but I kind of wanted to like wait until we got to this part of the conversation, is like, as this is happening, because you know, it's not really a spoiler alert, but a spoiler alert, you are now quite witchy. And so at 24, what is your relationship with Jesus?

SPEAKER_03 59:58

At that stage, that was really about the time that I started questioning Jesus, I think. Because like up until that point, it was it was like, well, regardless of what else happens in life, regardless of you know where I end up landing with my Christian faith, like I always have Jesus. Like I'm I'm never gonna abandon Jesus, you know, he he is he is everything. And it was really about that time, like 24-ish, that I started realizing that I couldn't I couldn't separate Jesus from the faith that I had grown up with. It was too intertwined for me. And I, you know, at some point in that general time frame, I you know, kind of stopped with praying and stopped with personal devotions, and I was losing kind of that last piece, I guess, that I had been hanging on to.

Jordan 1:00:59

And so later I'm gonna ask you how you look at Jesus now today, but um, you're questioning things, how do you get to how do you get from 24 to 29?

Science Education And A Blank Slate

Jordan 1:01:09

How do like do you go right into pagan spiritualities? Do you experiment with anything else?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:18

So I had I had actually been really drawn to like nature-based spirituality, witchcraft, that kind of thing, even before I wasn't a Christian. And I even remember I even remember when I was still a Christian, I remember thinking, like, man, there's kind of a part of me that wishes Christianity wasn't true because I would totally be a witch. I don't think I knew that. So what attracted you to it? Or how did you even know about it? What did you uh just just internet, you know, just generally seeing things on the internet. I've I've always loved and that didn't scare you off the way like an atheist did. Well, I think that that was more of like a like the the time frame that I had that thought, I was still so Christian that I I never actually thought that that would happen. You know, like I never actually thought that I would become a witch. It was just like, oh, I see why people are attracted to that. Like it looks really cool. It's never gonna be me though. But the atheist, that realization that I was agreeing with an atheist and that I might not be a Christian anymore, that was a little bit further down the timeline where I had already started losing my faith. And so it was more of a reality in the present moment, and I think that's why it was more terrifying.

Jordan 1:02:41

So is witchcraft your first, is that where you turn to next at 2425?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:47

2425. I'm more going through a little bit of uh like an agnostic atheist phase where I don't really know if anything exists. Um I'm really getting down to the foundational, like I'm learning about evolution for the first time. Oh wow, I'm learning about um Did you know what evolution was? You just was told it wasn't real or a very Christian-y version, like very um what's the term? Like the straw man arguments. That was all I knew for evolution. What's the straw man argument? Just like the weakest version of what something could be.

Jordan 1:03:30

Oh, I thought like there was a straw man argument related to evolution, like specifically.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:35

Yeah, just in general, like the most watered-down version of evolution that's like the most easily refused.

Jordan 1:03:40

Listeners are gonna have to tell us if that's another southern thing. I don't think I've ever heard that. You never heard straw man argument? I don't think so. That doesn't sound the most southern, like that that sounds like something maybe I should have known, but I don't think I've heard that one.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:53

Yeah, I think I came across it when I was doing all the research into religion because people talk about like you can steel man an argument or you can straw man an argument.

unknown 1:04:02

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:02

Like you can either interact with ideas at their strongest or you can interact with them at their weakest. And I was presented with evolution, like it's this ridiculous theory that somebody came up with just so that they could say there's no God, you know? And like that's in reality, that's not actually what it is. And there are Christians who accept that evolution is is real, but that that just wasn't what I was taught about it. And so I'm learning about all of these really foundational things for the very first time uh in my like early to mid-twenties. I'm learning about the origins of the universe, I'm learning a lot of like science and history that I had never heard before. Gotta be like mind-blowing. Yeah. And so I was kind of in this stage of I was so hungry to learn science that I I was just not really interested in the religion for a little while. Um, I didn't feel like it was necessary because I was learning all these things in other areas.

Jordan 1:04:59

You're learning about science, and you two well, how long does that go on? How long do you spend in this science era?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:08

Probably like one to two years, something like that.

Jordan 1:05:12

Alright, so and you two and you got married at like 27, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:17

Yeah.

Jordan 1:05:18

Okay, so because I think you you got married like a little bit before we met. So you're 26, 27, you're getting married. How do your parents feel about that? We're getting close to today, so yeah, they uh we eloped.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:34

We didn't have any family at our wedding, primarily because of the situation with my family. Um, we were pretty much no contact for about nine months, um, starting with our engagement because they did not approve. When they realized that they they were not stopping it, you know, they're like this was happening whether they wanted it to or not. We kind of started talking to them a little bit again, and we did end up. Having like a reception for friends and family when we got back from our elopement, and they did come to that. So that was kind of the beginning of us starting to repair our relationship with them a little bit. Um, but leading up to the wedding, they did not approve.

Jordan 1:06:15

What about your relationship with your sisters?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:17

It's overall throughout my life, it's been better than my relationship with my parents. Um, you know, I think with all siblings, there's periods of time where you're closer or not as close, and they're so much older than me. We're, you know, we've always been in such different places in our life that we don't we haven't always connected on a really deep level. But we weren't like I was talking to my sisters through the period that I was no contact with my parents.

Jordan 1:06:42

I know your next step is then witchcraft. So how do you get there?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:47

So I think I got to a point when it I kind of feel like the dust started settling around me finally realizing that I wasn't a Christian anymore and doing all of this research in science and history and feeling like I'm filling in a lot of the gaps that were left by my fundy Christian homeschool education.

Jordan 1:07:07

It's really crazy to think about the timeline of this and how like how like quick that all was. Like to go from the perfect Christian mature girl courting, broken up with, or you broke up, broke up with him, two years of trying to move out, still Christian, then just starting to question it, and then admitting it like this isn't for me, and then having to learn everything that wasn't taught to you in your homeschool curriculum, to like this feels like kind of wrong to say, but to just reach like a I don't know how I want to say this. Um to reach a different standard, I guess, like how quick that all had to happen, and how much like time and energy that must have taken up. But how sh how not long ago that was. Like that was relatively recent.

unknown 1:08:01

Yeah.

Jordan 1:08:02

That's so it's so wild to me. Because it sounds like telling these stories, I mean, we're not even that old, but it feels like we're talking about something that was 20 years ago. But we're talking about something that was in the 2020s. Yeah. It's wild.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:13

It is, it's really overwhelming to think about it in you know, in the big picture. It a lot has happened to me in the last decade.

Jordan 1:08:21

Yeah. And I think the other thing that's crazy too is I only know this version of you that to the point that like to think that that was you not that long ago is just is wild.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:32

Oh yeah, yeah. Like, even probably seven years ago, me would not recognize current me.

Jordan 1:08:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:40

I'm a completely different person than I was then. Yeah.

Finding Witchcraft And A New Community

Jordan 1:08:44

It would be crazy to watch a conversation with your past though. So you're going into witchcraft. How does that happen?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:51

Yeah, so as everything is kind of settling into a new normal now that I'm not like I know within myself that I'm not a Christian anymore, I do kind of start to miss some of the ritual aspects of Christianity, like the daily devotions and the prayer and different things like that. And so I kind of start thinking about ways that I can bring that back without the toxic aspects of Christianity. And I I just feel like there's no way that I can ever go back to being a Christian because for one thing, there's too much, too many bad memories associated with it, you know, too much heaviness. And I I feel like I can never disconnect that from my experience growing up and and through my late teen, early 20 years, but I don't know really where to go. And then I realized, you know, I've always been kind of attracted to nature. I love being outside. And, you know, I even remember at one time being kind of attracted to witchcraft. So I kind of just started researching it a little bit, looking on um, looking online, listening to podcasts, reading a few books. And that was I did that for a couple of years, probably. I would say about two years of just personal kind of looking into it and researching it and starting to develop my own practice a little bit. And then that was how I I discovered Elise and how I ended up meeting all of you and and meeting my what's now my cousin.

Jordan 1:10:36

Yeah, so I know you did one of Elise Wells's, I don't know, I don't possess of that. Elise Wells, her one of her containers, her first one, Witch Codes. I guess so that was that your very first public thing? I mean it's private, but like thing with other people, I guess, is what I mean.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:55

Yeah, yeah, that was my very first like group thing where there were other people involved in, you know, the kind of the religious or spiritual practice that I was doing, which was also really scary. Yeah, how did that feel? At that point, I would I don't think I was ready to call myself a witch at that point, just because there was so much what's crazy is we can go back and watch the videos of those meetings. Yeah. So I I don't think I would have called myself a witch at that point. Um, I was more like, oh, I'm spiritual, I guess, or something or something like that. You know, just I connect with nature and I'm spiritual, and so this seems like something that could, you know, be a good class or container for me to do. But that was the beginning of me really starting to almost do another deconstruction of like my beliefs about what witchcraft was, and you know, kind of a new understanding of it and realizing that, you know what, I think I actually I am a witch. Like I identify with those values and the practices, and and I think that that is the spirituality that I've been, you know, working toward through the last few years.

Jordan 1:12:09

Gosh, a lot has happened in the uh has it it's I guess it's just been a year and a half, or yeah, just like a year and a half, right? Since then? The first witch codes? Yeah. I think that was November 2024. Yeah. So a year and a half.

Deity Jesus And Life Now

Jordan 1:12:24

You've done three containers now, right? Three containers. You've traveled to Greece, you've joined a coven, you travel to Maryland every like six-ish weeks.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:33

Yeah.

Jordan 1:12:34

So where are you today with your spirituality? Yeah, what is most important to you? What are you most interested in right now, too?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:42

Most important to me is respect and connection with nature and the earth. I'm still working through my belief and relationship with deity. It's really hard for me to separate the deity work from the God of the Bible, because I had this very clear-cut picture of what I thought God was. And so trying to disconnect that from my current spiritual and religious practice is is a work in progress. But just kind of living more in communion with the cycles of nature and you know, using my spiritual practice to work for what's the word I'm looking for.

Jordan 1:13:25

But yeah, just like using it for your own good, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:28

Yeah, yeah, and connecting with nature and using that kind of to connect more deeply with my highest self and my what I was put here, if you want to use that term, put here what I arrived here on this earth to do.

Jordan 1:13:43

What would you say to 18-year-old you now? Wow. I know that's a big question.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:51

I would probably say you are not gonna believe the next 10 years of your life. I'm gonna blow your mind.

Jordan 1:14:01

Solid. Oh, I did because I wanted to follow up. So I get this kind of goes with your feelings of deity as well, but like what is your relationship with Jesus now and how do you see Jesus? Do you believe Jesus was a figment of your imagination? Do you believe that Jesus is a deity? What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:19

I think right now I probably view Jesus more as a historical figure who I respect his teachings and what he was trying to do in his time. Um, and I think in that way I can connect with him on a spiritual level, but I definitely don't view him as a deity, and I don't really incorporate him into my spiritual practice. I think just because there is a lot of baggage around that, you know, and so for me, I don't think that it feels right, at least not right now, to connect with him spiritually in any way. But I mean, I'm I'm open to it in the future if I ever feel feel called to do that.

Jordan 1:15:07

And so what is next for you? What's what are you doing now? I guess like we'll we'll have to do a part two in 10 years, but I'm kind of thinking, like, what what does age 29 to 39 look like?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:18

That's a really big question. Sure is. Honestly, over the last few years, because there has been so much radical change in my life, I don't really have five and ten year plans anymore.

Jordan 1:15:34

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:36

I'm kind of just going with the flow and seeing where life takes me. I have some, you know, thoughts and plans on what I would like to happen in the future, but a lot of it is just more learning to live in the present and enjoying where I'm at right now versus trying to, you know, direct my life in a certain way for a long period of time because that clearly doesn't work for me because I didn't think I was gonna be here. So one little thought seed of an idea that I have had um recently is I am thinking about starting a podcast. Yes, going more in depth on specific topics about the journey from Christianity to witchcraft and what that's looked like in my life and how it's changed more like specific, nuanced beliefs and topics as I've gone through that journey. So yeah, stay tuned for the development of that.

Jordan 1:16:37

Yeah, that is so exciting. And I think too, like obviously you are not alone in this. There are lots of people who have deconstructed and lots of people that will continue to do that. But as you were doing it, as you know, you you

Duggar Would You Rather Game

Jordan 1:16:51

were you felt so isolated and you were like alone in your town. And so I think it feels very Christian-y to say this, but it's that's like such a service you'd be providing. Like that's something that is that is something for his glory. That is something that uh I think would really provide a lot of good. And so I'm excited. Do you want to drop the title?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:16

I think we can. I think I'm pretty set on it. Um, so the name for the podcast that I've come up with is Healing Through Witchcraft.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:25

Yay!

SPEAKER_03 1:17:26

I'm so excited. Because I do feel like my journey to witchcraft has healed so much in me. And I think I think it's healed me in a way that's been unique that I wouldn't like I wouldn't have found the healing in any other path. Like I think this was for me, this was the thing that I needed to heal from a lot of the thing. And it's an ongoing journey. Of course, I'll be healing my life from some things. But kind of like you were talking about how much has happened and how fast it's all happened. I think that's because of the specific spiritual path that I'm on now, because of witchcraft, um, that I've been able to have this really rapid progression and and a lot of change in my life.

Jordan 1:18:13

Yeah, and it's a very interesting story that you have. Because I mean, you've been interviewed on like three podcasts now, four podcasts? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. So it's something that a lot of people want to hear, and I think it's really awesome.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:27

And I I always go back to, you know, during that time that I was deconstructing, I found plenty of resources about deconstructing from Christianity, but virtually all of them were from people who ended up atheist.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:40

And while I do still have kind of a complicated relationship with deity, and I don't really even know if I believe in a literal, I don't know, physical is the right term, but like a literal being that is a god that's like directing our path or something. I I didn't find any resources when I was going through it that that would have helped me get here. It was almost like I had to cobble together different things. I had the the deconstruction resources from people who ended up atheist, and then I had the witchcraft resources from people who didn't really talk about their spiritual past. I'm sure at least some of them started out as Christian, but that wasn't really the focus of their their podcast or their book. And so yeah, I hope that I hope in producing this podcast I am able to provide just some at least some like relatability for people who are on a similar path. You know, maybe they're leaving Christianity or they're questioning Christianity, but they don't know what's next. And just kind of providing a perspective on how witchcraft has helped me get where I am. That was a great elevator pitch.

Jordan 1:20:11

Okay, so we end every episode with a quick little game. Now, this started when I was making up this game. It started as a would you rather that turned into what would you do Duggers edition. So we'll start with the couple would you rathers that I made up for the Duggar Edition. So we have Would you rather have your chart read for the year ahead or have a year-ahead tarot spread? Oh, that rhymed.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:35

Ooh. I think I would rather have my chart read. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:41

It feels a little more like I love tarot and oracle. Like I love working with cards I do almost every day, but it's definitely a lot more like open to interpretation. And I know astrology can be too, but it's a little more like scientific in a way, I guess. So I think I would prefer the astrology reading.

Jordan 1:21:00

Would you rather do a full-blown ritual in a public park in your hometown? Or immediately no. Or commit to going to church every single day for a year with your family.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:12

Oh gosh.

Jordan 1:21:14

Every single day.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:16

Oh, every single day. Um at this point, honestly, I would probably rather go to church every single day. Yes.

Jordan 1:21:27

I thought I thought you'd pick that up. Yeah. Um, because even we've talked a little bit like it doesn't always feel bad going to church. Like you can still feel bad sometimes. Yeah, sometimes. Okay, that was all I had before the Dugger question.

unknown 1:21:42

Okay.

Jordan 1:21:45

I don't know if I care to give context to these or not. Would you rather talk to Anna or Kendra right now?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:51

Oh gosh. Anna.

Jordan 1:21:54

I think I would rather talk to Anna, but I feel like I shouldn't say this, but I feel like she's almost like she's too far gone. But maybe Kendra is too. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:04

I think I just I I so desperately want to understand the psychology.

unknown 1:22:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:08

Like I'm I would love to talk to Anna if if I knew that she was actually gonna talk, you know, and be honest. That's the thing.

Jordan 1:22:15

Yeah, you don't know. Would you rather marry a Duggar or have been raised by a Duggar?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:26

We should call this would you rather worst edition?

unknown 1:22:32

You have to pick one.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:35

I guess probably raised by them because at least at least you have a a path out.

unknown 1:22:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:43

Yeah. If you're very into it, it's like you're stuck with it forever.

Jordan 1:22:47

Okay, you're hosting a dinner with three duggers. Which duggers do you pick and what do you cook for them?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:55

Well, I would have to make Ted Hagasserol, right? I know. Probably Jill. Um she probably has the most similar trajectory, and I know she's still like conservative Christian and all that, but she's she's got a nose ring though.

unknown 1:23:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:13

She's probably the most similar to me, so it would be really interesting to talk to her. Um I would love to talk to Jana because she had a very different kind of life path than the rest of them because she got married so much older than most of them.

Jordan 1:23:32

Had her first kid older too, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:34

Yeah, she had her first kid older, and she has like the older sister for anyone who doesn't know, yeah. She has more of a perspective on like the whole Duggar universe.

Jordan 1:23:49

I'm so curious what her courtship looked like. I don't even know if they called it courting at that point. I'm assuming, I'm pretty sure they kissed before marriage, and I'm I'm gonna assume that that's all they did, but I'm so curious. Oh, and who's your third?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:00

Third Duggar. Oh all the other ones that I can think of are just like, I feel like it would put such a damper on everything. Like there's a part of me that kind of would be intrigued by a sit-down dinner with Michelle, but at the same time, like I feel like I would be so nervous around her.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:22

So I don't know. Maybe one of the younger kids, like to get a varying perspective of like the older and younger kids.

Jordan 1:24:30

Yeah, because we don't know a lot about them anymore. Yeah since they're not on TV. Yeah. And they're too young for social media accounts. I think I would pick Jessa. I think her and I could have a really good debate. Um probably Jill. And like Janna is a good one. I don't think I'd pick Ginger, but she's like, if I had four or five, I'd pick J. Oh, uh, maybe Joanna. She is the Joyanna's the one who's okay. I'm closest in age to Jededia and Jeremiah, but I'm in between Jedi and Jeremiah and Joanna. So I'd probably pick her because we're like the same age.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:09

Yeah, right before you said that, I was like, oh, I think I would probably pick Joanna because she seems like she would be pretty easy to talk to.

Jordan 1:25:16

Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_03 1:25:17

And maybe.

Jordan 1:25:18

Yeah, because she's like the girl who stayed the tomboy, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:21

Yeah.

Jordan 1:25:22

Okay, great. Last one. You can ask one Duggar any question you want. Which Dugger, what question? And they have to answer it. They have to answer fully and honestly.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:34

Let's see. There's so many. So many Duggars and so many questions. I know. I don't know. This I hate to kind of I hate to say this one because it almost feels like we're kind of wrapping up on a on a negative note, but that's okay. We have an outro after this. Honestly, like it feels really heavy, but I would want to talk to Michelle and ask her why. Like, why didn't you protect your daughters? You know, why would you want to cover for your son rather than getting him help?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:09

Just why did you think that all of that was a good idea?

Jordan 1:26:12

Yeah. I don't know. I thought about Jim Bob because some like I think I know the answer to this, but I genuinely want to know, like, does he really believe all of this, or is it I do believe he definitely started out believing all of it, and I think in the end I st I do think he still believes all this. I I I guess I would want to know from either of them, maybe. Like, I would I would want to ask them where do you think you went wrong? And like I'd want to know, like, do they think they did any wrong? Because I think they mostly blame it on like the media and other people other people's perception, other people blowing it up out of proportion, or blaming the victim and that kind of thing, but not like their parenting or even blaming Josh for like not being a good enough Christian or something. Like they just blame everyone else. So I'd want to know, like, do they really do that? I have so many questions for Anna. I will say, since those emails that we've gotten, I think some of those questions have been answered. Yeah. Um because I definitely thought like you can see in those emails from when Josh was in jail about like how tricked she's been. And I know I thought like I always thought, like, there's no way she really does like bully there's no way she believes he's innocent. I don't know why she's doing this, but she just must be so Christian that she truly believes even if he's guilty, he can't she can't leave him and she's dependent on the Duggars for money. But after those emails, like, no, she truly believes that he's innocent. But that's not a question for her. That's I feel like I know that now. So yeah, I'll I'll I'll leave uh that's my question for Jimbo. Where does he think he went wrong? Yeah.

Final Reflections And Closing

Jordan 1:28:19

That was a really good conversation, Catherine.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:21

How do you feel after all of that? I feel really good. I always feel like it's uh therapeutic to talk about it.

Jordan 1:28:28

I'm glad. I know I said this earlier in the episode too, and I know we've talked about it, but I I feel like like I'm I've always been a little bit nervous, like I would never want you to think like you're just like a science experiment to me, but it is like you are such an interesting case study, and you do have such an interesting story that a lot of people are going to find fascinating, and then there's a lot of other people that are going to relate to you, whether exactly your kind of story or just bits and pieces of it. So thanks for telling it. Yeah, you're welcome. Whether you're just beginning your journey with astrology, starting to utilize it as a tool in your craft, or are just curious about the universe, we are so happy that you were here to join us today. And if you have any comments or questions, we love hearing from you and are loving this process of building a community of astrology students. Everything we do is linked in the show notes. We hope you enjoyed this episode as much as we did talking about it. Next time, I think our episode will be our deep dive into cancer. If I'm right, we shall see. This podcast is my practice of asking big questions, uncovering the hidden truths, and creating an accessible space for others to do the same. Thank you so much for being a part of this, and we'll see you back in the study room every other Tuesday.