What Happened to Artist Development? — Lee Dannay, Recording Academy NY Chapter President

What happened to artist development—and can careers still be built the right way in today’s music industry?

In this episode of She Creates Noise, veteran A&R executive Lee Dannay—Recording Academy New York Chapter President—shares lessons from more than three decades helping artists grow from potential to lasting careers.

With over 30 years at Sony Music, Warner Chappell, and now 30 Tigers, Lee has helped guide the careers of artists including John Mayer, Brandi Carlile, and Train.

She explains why great A&R begins with trust, why so many artists feel abandoned when champions leave labels, and why long-term career building still matters more than quick moments.

We also discuss the changing business model—from traditional labels to artist ownership—and what 30 Tigers is doing differently.

If you want to know more about:

•  artist development in today’s music industry 
•  how A&R really works 
•  songwriting camps and collaboration culture 
•  music publishing and ownership 
•  women in music leadership 
•  mentoring the next generation of artists 
•  what the Recording Academy actually does 

This conversation offers a rare insider perspective from someone who has helped shape careers for decades.

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Transcript

Introduction to She Creates Noise

Speaker 3 0:24

Hi , you're listening to Sarah Nagourney and welcome to . She Creates Noise , a new podcast spotlighting women who power the music industry , coming to you from New York City . Now , if you don't know me yet , here's a little background . I'm a songwriter , producer , manager , educator and mentor . I've written platinum selling songs , had tracks on Grammy nominated educator and mentor . I've written platinum-selling songs , had tracks on Grammy-nominated records and released music on both major and independent labels . I've been a jazz singer , a jingle singer , toured with big bands and became a pop artist , and I've performed at festivals across the US , europe and Asia . These days , I focus on writing with and developing young talent . In the coming weeks , I'll be pulling back the curtain on the music industry's female changemakers . Some are close friends , others I'm just getting to know , but all have reshaped the business in profound ways . My goal here is to help listeners better understand how the music business really works and just how instrumental women behind the scenes have been . You'll hear from both sides of the desk artists , producers , managers , label executives , lawyers . Women making things happen , often without the spotlight on them . Thank you for joining me on this journey . Now let's dive in .

Meet Lee Dannay: Veteran A&R Executive

Speaker 3 1:55

Today's guest is Leigh Danae . Leigh is a veteran A&R executive with over 30 years of experience in the music industry . She's held senior roles at Sony Music and Warner Chapel , working with artists like John Mayer , brandi Carlile , train and the Oscar-winning duo From Once . Her career spans labels , publishing and television , including her work as a music producer for America's Got Talent . She currently heads A&R at 30 Tigers and teaches at NYU in Hofstra . Lee is also president of the Recording Academy New York Chapter and active in several major music organizations and non-profits . I really appreciate Lee making the time for us today . Thank you so much and welcome . My first question here is really you know you've worked with such a wide range of artists from John Mayer to Brandi Carlile , gavin DeGraw , iron and Wine Glenn Hansard Phew , it's unbelievable . How do you approach artist development across such different genres and personalities ? What stays consistent in your process

Artist Development Across Different Genres

Speaker 3 2:53

?

Speaker 4 2:53

Well , thank you . First of all , thanks for the very kind and generous introduction and it is nice to face meet you , although I know we've met before and we certainly have been in concentric circles for many years , so it's really an honor to be asked to do this and to talk about things I've done when I was thinking about that question . There are so many answers . Each artist sort of requires their own individual answer and the way I tried to sort of sum it up so that we're not here all day , it kind of depends on two sort of main things the entry point , in which the relationship starts with the artist If I've done sort of the old-fashioned A&R found the artist championed them , developed them and worked with them from an early point in their career . There's kind of like an organic trust and relationship that builds throughout that process and that's maybe the simplest way of working with an artist , because the conversations are all about who they are and what they're doing and where they want to go , and so it becomes a very sort of just . It's really just an organic process . But also as an A&R person and I've done a lot of this , both on the label side and a little bit in publishing too . Sometimes A&R people say this with sort of air quotes like inherit an artist you know or ask to get involved in an artist who's already previously been with the company you're working with , and that relationship is entirely different and in some ways sometimes it can be a lot harder because you're coming in with your own preconceptions . The artist has had different relationships with different A&R people and sometimes when you inherit an artist just by virtue of and this is not a personal thing to me specifically , but there's an inherent mistrust or skepticism when someone new sort of takes over the creative relationship . And that's actually something because I've always been a bit of that I don't know how to call it like jack of all trades worker , be a and our person .

Speaker 4 4:49

My background , learning how to do the craft of a and our came from being involved in a lot of different projects at Sony very early on in my career . I think that that's for me personally it was a gift because it allowed me to have a lot of different experiences learning how to make records , doing compilation projects , doing catalog work , doing benefit records , not just signing and developing and making artists and making records . It taught me a lot about the general process of artist development and helping create music with artists . So so I think , because I started that way , I've often been the one within the company to inherit artists who are either , um , have been kind of orphaned when a company changes over and people uh , um , or you'll say , you know , hey , we're having some trouble with this one , or or this isn't really , you know a little bit , yeah , a little bit of the fixer sort of , but . But I've always taken that as a compliment and I've also taken it really seriously .

Speaker 4 5:46

And I think some of that mistrust that I've had this conversation with artists over the years some of the mistrust is that artists get signed and then their point person leaves the company for whatever reason and then they feel abandoned . And you know , how do you trust some stranger , no matter what their reputation is ? How do you trust a stranger with your art and your and your creative work and how do you have those personal conversations ? Because at the end of the day , the music artists write is personal and it's coming from their heart . It's like every time an artist writes a song , it's like they're giving birth to a child , you know , in a way .

Speaker 3 6:16

Can you separate a little like some what were some of the you know ground up people that you did find and some of the ones that you inherited ? If you don't mind mentioning just a few examples , yeah , I mean I can .

Speaker 4 6:28

On the label side , I would say most of the artists I find involved in science , like John Mayer , anna Nalick . I inherited Train , who I only worked with really briefly . I inherited Fight for Fighting , who I did work with for a while , and that was one where I really had to build some trust and it was a little complicated , but I think we got there . And then , on the publishing side , when I worked with artists you know some that you mentioned Gavin DeGraw , iron Wine , glenn Hansard those were all artists that were within the company and , you know , honestly , were orphaned and I helped both kind of get the deals done , redone and kept them on the roster , but also jumped in at a point where most of those artists already had pretty well established careers but publishing was an important component of where they were going in the future , both in terms of collaborations and just sort of advancing their career .

Speaker 3 7:22

You had to kind of make them comfortable and show that you were there .

Speaker 4 7:26

And show that I was just like not another suit who was there to just kind of accept the delivery of music and every artist , and I really understand why they feel that way . There's a lot of turnover in the industry and when you're especially when you're signed to a publishing deal which has a lengthier term , there's almost inevitably turnover with the creative staff at a certain point . So you're not having sort of that lifetime relationship with an artist . Part of what I have always felt is important about A&R and what I feel my most valuable role to an artist , both on the label and the publishing side , is like what I've always said is being of service , and being of service to an artist at any entry point . So , whereas it's not always sort of the requirement of the job to dive in with your whole heart , sometimes it's like hey , can you just handle this , can you just take care of this and be the point person for maintenance , so to speak . And I've always tried to be more than that and be the person that the artist or songwriter can trust , because I think that that's really needed in our business and also I'd love to do that Honestly . That's what I consider artist development and that's what I consider being different about the role of A&R Also .

Speaker 4 8:34

You know , obviously the main role of A&R on the surface is you're a talent scout . You're the one who's identifying talent and bringing them in at any , whatever that stage is . You're bringing them in hopefully allowing them to have a successful career with the company you're working for . That requires development too . That requires trust . So that's how , with each artist I've worked with , there's been a different entry point and some I've had to work harder at building trust . I think I was largely successful with most artists I've worked with with building trust . But some artists also just kind of keep you at arm's length and when that happens I respect that .

Speaker 4 9:07

If an artist has had a very like Glenn Hansard is a great example . We always had a very cordial relationship and he was lovely to deal with . I am still close to his manager and we've worked together subsequently and I think that they knew that I was always there to support and champion and be of service in any way possible , even when it was like renegotiating a deal , kind of getting behind them to help get the best terms . But he isn't someone who creatively kind of bore his soul to me and said , ok , I want to play you these songs in progress , or what do you think of this ? When I'd see him , we'd have great conversations , but then there just wasn't that sort of bond . He was well established and probably didn't have that before me either . Quite honestly , I think that's just the kind of artist he is . You know he has that with other people Interesting .

Speaker 3 9:50

I mean , I've certainly known artists that were signed and suffered the , you know , key man clause not taking place and they didn't have someone to represent them and they got dropped , or I mean that's more typical , sadly . But it sounds like , you know , when you stepped in you really rolled up your sleeves and lucky them to have had you . Thank you .

Speaker 4 10:10

I think that's important . I also enjoy that process . You know , again , sometimes it's it's more successful than others , even in terms of what I can contribute and what I can help add value to . But I think that when , when you have that opportunity and when we have that role , that's the responsibility . I just take that responsibility really seriously and I enjoy sort of diving in like oh , here's a new artist that I have inherited and let me find out where he's at and where . Let me find out where she's at and what they need and how can I bring value to where they're at . They were signed for a reason . They , their talent , is exceptional and was greatly desired at some point by whoever signed them prior to me . And let me try to honor that . And as long as that relationship exists , build on it and I think that sort of differentiates the role of an A&R person from just being a talent scout and both are important , but that's just always been my something I just care about .

Speaker 3 11:00

In there to keep supporting them and not letting them float off and be forgotten about or whatever .

Speaker 4 11:07

know what's going on in in music at all in all genres , and and you know who are the new writers that are coming up and doing good work , who are the you know who are some great producers . When I hear still like I could be driving in my car and listening to you know , sirius XM , and I hear a new song by an artist and my first thought is like Ooh , who produced that song ? It's great . Or , you know , I wonder who wrote this ? Or did they write it together or alone , or together as a band or with collaborators ? And that that sort of behind the scenes creative process really interests me . And and it's always kind of the first question I ask is like okay , who'd you work with ?

Speaker 4 11:55

You know and and , and if I don't know them , should I , I should you know so .

Speaker 3 11:59

You really stay on top .

Speaker 4 12:00

Yeah , and so I it . It . It sort of necessitates me staying on top of things because that's how I can be of service and that's the value I can bring to any project or any artist . I also really enjoy that . I feel like that just makes me more present in this ever-changing industry and keeps me as current as possible at a time where things are just turning around and turning over super quickly . So I definitely work hard to do that and certainly don't know everyone , but try really hard when I don't know someone to dive into their work and , you know , get to know what's , you know what they can offer to an artist or to a you know , to a band .

From Majors to Indies: 30 Tigers Approach

Speaker 3 12:42

And now you're at 30 Tigers , where you support a much more independent roster . How does A&R an indie-facing company like that differ from your experience at major labels like Sony or Warner's ?

Speaker 4 12:55

It's in some ways exactly the same and in some ways entirely different . How's that for a vague answer ? Well , so it's the same in that , you know , again , as one of the most important parts of A&R , identifying talent finding , you know , signing artists , trying to be out in the industry and find the right artists who fit with the ethos of our company , who we can be successful for and with . That's always the main role of an A&R person . The different process and the things that I was talking about you know kind of in the prior question . I still do that with some of the artists I work with .

Speaker 4 13:37

It's not a mandate and it's not something that is either required or necessitated in terms of the way our company works . You know , part of the reason , a huge part of the reason that attracted me to joining the company was the philosophy that the whole company is a service to artists . We are , you know , a label services but , you know , being a dedicated partner with our artists in service of all of the different departments that you know kind of make up 30 Tigers , all of the different ways that our company can be of service to support the artists own work . And you know our artists own their own masters . You know , get involved in any intellectual property by design .

Speaker 3 14:27

And more established artists . Overall , you know the Bruce , we have all we have all levels , you know .

Speaker 4 14:32

I mean we have some new and developing artists and we're always looking . We have a . We have a very large roster , broad roster , both in terms of genre and just , you know , kind of the number of artists that will put records through our company . So , you know , we curate . We're not a , we're not a volume business by nature . We , you know , we , have a distribution based model so that we are able to be of service .

Speaker 4 14:59

Like , honestly , like you know , creative service marketing , service promotion . We offer a lot of the most of the services of a traditional label , but with a very different ethos . With , you know , creative service marketing , service promotion . We offer a lot of the most of the services of a traditional label , but with a very different ethos . With you know , we are going to give you the best of our expertise . We will work collaboratively with you and help you accomplish your goals , but you own your work . So , at the end of the day , all of the work that I might do with some of those artists if they ask for it , it's not a negotiation . It's me saying , hey , you know you need some help or you've asked for some help , or I have a suggestion we could do this , they have 100% control over their art and can say thanks for the suggestion , no thanks .

Speaker 3 15:38

And for those listening that don't know the difference between a major is they own your master's and in something like 30 Tigers , the artist owns a masters and you're at offering label services to support , promotion and etc right just to help them create their best work and then to give them a path for release .

Speaker 4 15:55

And you know , and ultimately the goals are both majors and indies are the same . We want to have successful careers with our artists , you know , for our artists and with our artists . I think the mandates on the major label side that I had were all for the good of you know , making helping accomplish a goal , make a successful record , have a successful release . You know , develop and break an artist , but there are just different pressures . You know there's different when there's a different economic model . That sort of ends up . You know there's a lot in a bigger company there's bigger , more cooks in the kitchen . I'll just say that and and I never I didn't have so many instances throughout my career I was very fortunate in that there we've always had in my experience is a lot of the relationships I had , even in the early days , were also collaborative and supportive . Even in the early days were also collaborative and supportive , you know .

Speaker 4 16:44

But but if ever there's there was an argument over like we want this single or that single , there was certainly more pressure for me in my earlier part of my career to , you know , help make the , the artist , understand why what they might have wanted wasn't the , wasn't the right way or wasn't the way that the company had a vision for , always challenging right .

Speaker 4 17:07

It was always sat really badly with me and I didn't like being the messenger or the bearer of news that I didn't believe in or support . It didn't happen that often , but just being put in that position always made me feel like I was . I never want to be disingenuous and often I didn't agree with things that were being asked of me to do and that sort of led to me saying , ok , there must be a better way . And I found that with Dirty Tigers , where the ethos of our company and the philosophy is exactly what I've believed my significance in a role of A&R is is to be of service , to be of support , to be of service , to be of support , but ultimately let the artist have agency over their intellectual property and to be able to make and release records with supportive , creative services , not directives .

Speaker 3 17:57

So that's the difference . Now it's fantastic . I mean , I was like where were you when I was a young artist ? I needed you .

Speaker 4 18:03

Well , you could ask my boss that he was building this company , because we've been around , I think , almost 25 years and and and probably never been more needed or or or appreciated than you know . As the industry has changed and , as you know , the economics of our business have changed . It's different . It's different , you know it , majors now and and certainly different than when I was there . So again , I feel very lucky that I had largely really wonderful experiences and learned the craft that I still am very lucky to get to employ from time to time as an old school A&R person , but also got to work with a lot of different artists , genre wise , which which also just suits me . That's my . You know , you always have to play to your strengths , I think , in whatever role you have in this business and I love all genres of music . I always have . I have a lot of curiosity about music and , like I said , I hear something . I'm like who's behind that ? Who's involved ?

Speaker 3 19:10

You know , and sort of the first thing I think of .

Speaker 2 19:11

So I'm very lucky that I still get to do that in the way that we do it at 30 Tigers . That's great . Sounds like a wonderful label .

Speaker 3 19:19

You've long

Writer Camps and Collaborative Songwriting

Speaker 3 19:20

been a champion of emerging writers , and your work with Warner Chappell's Global Writing Camps helped reshape how collaborations happen . I'm wondering when did you do some of those camps ? How long ago was that ? 15 plus years ago .

Speaker 3 19:33

Yeah , that would have been early because , let's face it , song camps are so typical . Now , I mean , someone we're here with today is at an Amazon song camp . I was just there , oh yeah , okay , I did one during the pandemic myself , called Songs Across the Water , which was to try to improve visibility of New York writers , and it was all virtual . And also , way back in the day , I did Chris Difford's Song Camp , which was a long time ago , probably 20 plus .

Speaker 4 20:00

That's awesome . They've been around , certainly not as common a practice as they are today . I actually and I'm very proud of this . But it's a point that I wanted to sort of share about the whole , that whole sort of concept , like when I started at Warner Chapel , like I said , I inherited a pretty large roster . The company had gone through some changes . There was a new team in place and when I dove in there I found that the writers and the artists that I had been assigned a lot of them were feeling really orphaned corporation as a whole back then . It left a lot of writers feeling orphaned , and I was also .

Speaker 4 20:53

It was at a time where there wasn't really a lot of signing and things because again , there was a lot of transition . So I jump into this role and I think what can I do ? You know , I've inherited a roster . I can't really sign too much . What can I do to be of service and what can I do to add value and to engender trust with a lot of the disenchanted , you know , creators that I was meeting and I thought like , hey , let's do a writer camp . But my goal for that particular camp was it was only Warner Chapel writers and it was largely to boost morale and to sort of connect the dots with all of the writers in different regions that were feeling this way . You know , and I thought you know what an interesting way to try to do this . We can build community at the company , we can boost morale . Of course , hopefully that'll lead to some cuts and some great you know copyrights , which I think you know they did . But I was also very lucky at the time that I sort of proposed this .

Speaker 4 21:51

You know , cost money to do writer camps and did you go somewhere exotic or where ? I did too , and I think there were many done after I left the company . The first one I did in New York and I pulled a lot of favors . I called people I knew at studios and negotiated some great rates , got a few places sort of donated because of people who owned the studio , were writers and asked to be part of it , and I brought writers in from New York , from the UK , from Nashville and Los Angeles , and I really curated it based on the artists and writers and more writers , writer producers that I had gotten to know , and I tried to balance a couple of the new , newer , young writer producers with a couple of more established writer producers from each of the . You know each of the offices .

Speaker 4 22:40

And when I brought the idea to my then boss , he really supported it and gave me the green light to do it and it was great . I mean , we had a week of . A couple of the bigger name writers were like I'll come in for a day or two but I've got to go do something else . And they all stayed for five days and and I did , and this was a learning experience for me . I'd never done anything like this before and I'm pretty sure Warner I won't swear to this , but I'm pretty sure that hadn't been done before internally . So I brought people from each of the companies and you know who did A&R to help and to sort of say , hey , who are your writers that we can bring in , who would be a great fit for this ? And you know we all worked collaboratively and that was also part of my goal was to , you know , work collaboratively with the different offices at the time and they were a blast . It was so successful that we did it I don't remember how long after , but we did it in Nashville and I'm pretty sure they still do it , you know so and there was really sort of early days for those kind of things and you know now they happen in so many different ways when they're done right , with intention , and those camps did lead to some cuts . So I was going to tell you a little story about something that happened in that camp . That was such an interesting learning experience for me .

Speaker 4 23:54

I had put together a top line writer artist from Nashville who's sort of a soul singer , a pop producer from Los Angeles and a lyric writer from I'm sorry , and a lyric writer from Nashville . And sorry , the artist was a soul singer who was not from Nashville but kind of living in Nashville , like three really different creators , you know , with very different experiences . And as they were writing , one of them came out from the room and said , hey , we want you to hear something Like , we think we're onto something really cool here , what do you think ? And they pulled me in and they were the reason they wanted me here . One was they were really excited .

Speaker 4 24:35

Two , they couldn't decide if they were writing a country song or a pop song and I thought that was such a funny , you know , sort of question . And then I was like , hmm , I think it's a country song and I brought in someone from Nash , my Nashville office , who was there to listen , and I said what do you think ? And she said I think it's a pop song , and so so it was such a funny experience listening to a song grow that way , you know , and wondering where it could go and how the instrumentation and how the demo kind of inform that process . And we ultimately decided we loved the song so much we cut it in a couple of different ways as a demo and that song had been on from that camp , had been on hold with Josh Groban and on hold with Blake Shelton , and Blake Shelton's team asked for it to be redemod , maybe three times , you know one with a pedal steel , one with a , a , a male vocal , one with a female , you know , like , like , all sort of just little tweaks that didn't necessarily change the inherent um song but gave it different feeling , and Blake Shelton ended up cutting it Um , and and so .

Speaker 4 25:46

So in the end we were like I guess it was a country song , you know , and and . But it was such a great learning experience at the process of collaboration and songwriting , it was such a . It all came about in such a kind of loving and supportive way and when that song got cut and then ultimately I think it was I think he had a gold or maybe platinum out , you know what ?

Speaker 3 26:07

was the song called .

Speaker 4 26:09

It was God . I'm going to blank out on the name of the song . I'll tell you in a second . It was not a single , but it was . You know , it was a song that was really beloved . So anyway , I'm sorry .

Speaker 3 26:21

I spent a lot of time talking about that . Yeah , no , I love . I love stories like that . That's just the kind of thing I wanted to like talk about some cool stuff that had happened with you .

Speaker 4 26:29

Okay , I'm going to let the song title . It's called Do you Remember ? And of course I didn't remember because that was so long ago . That's the song . It was wracking my brain . I'm like I'm not going to get off this topic .

Speaker 3 26:41

Sorry , Do you Remember ?

Speaker 4 26:42

Do you remember it was written by a writer named Will Gray , a writer-producer , ian Kropachick , and a lyric Nashville songwriter , michael Delaney , who are all fantastic artists and fantastic creators . Will very tragically passed away very young , not that long after that camp , actually passed away very young , not that long after that camp actually . So there's a lot of sort of love and nostalgia around that song for me personally , anyway , I got to when Will got sick . I think Blake had just released , he released the record and I actually got to bring Will , I think , a gold record right before he passed away , his first and only gold record , so from that song . So it was a very personally important time in my professional career .

Speaker 3 27:31

It's great that the song did get heard . That's that's an important thing , yeah .

Speaker 4 27:36

It's really . It's really fun when you know to be part of like that process from zero to that . You know and see how it's going . I learned a lot . You know those , all of those kinds of experiences and every time I've worked with a whether it's an artist or a collaborative , you know experience like that . I learned so much about the creative process and and hopefully that informs you know ideas and thoughts I can bring to other artists . That's a big part of what I care about as well when I'm doing this kind of work .

Speaker 3 28:03

It's a great thing to see . Did you used to go into the studio in these camps and kind of sort of check in so you would check in with what they were doing ?

Speaker 4 28:09

Yeah , I actually in that in those two camps I was there the whole time . I mean , we , you know I was rotating between rooms and studios in New York and and then in Nashville . I think we mostly did it in the Warner Chapel Nashville offices because they had a lot of studios . So so yeah , we would , you know , sort of pop in and out and and have playbacks and listen to where they were at and you know , yeah , just a lot of fun , a lot of fun creating . That's great .

Speaker 3 28:35

That makes it much more real to see , to see the process , to go in and see doing it creates noise .

Women's Evolving Role in the Music Industry

Speaker 3 28:48

You've been a mentor and educator for years and a strong advocate for women in music , and I know you've seen the role and representation of women shift . Where do you think real change needs to happen ? And I know we talked about this a little bit like you've been doing this long enough to have seen change and how has it affected you and how you know I know you've been doing this long enough to have seen change and how has it affected you and and how you know , I know you've all . Women have to deal with certain numbers of things , but I think things have improved a lot not enough , but you know there's a lot to be grateful for in terms of the opportunities and I think young people are going to benefit a lot from . You know the groundbreaking work that you did the younger women , you know , yeah , it's it's benefit a lot from . You know the groundbreaking work that you did the younger women .

Speaker 4 29:27

You know , yeah it's changed a lot . One , there are so many more women in leadership positions . You know , across the industry , in every area and even in , you know , areas that inform music , like you know tech and you know other platforms where music lives . There's , there's , there are women executives and , and all of the C-suite offices and boardrooms . Way more than when I was starting in the business , there were women . You know , when I , there were women executives and and certainly some women that I looked up to and worked with early on in my career .

Speaker 4 30:06

I'll say something that's probably sort of controversial in this in my response to this , that for me and for a lot of other women I know , coming up at the time that we did , sort of surprisingly , I found more mentorship and support from some of my male bosses than female bosses . Um , and and I've never really that's never sat well with me Um and it and it's taught me a lot of lessons , you know , and and again , I think maybe because it was more competitive for women , so there was a lot more territorialism Um , I found that I wasn't always respected or treated respectfully by some women and that I personally had less of that happen from men , and and perhaps my ceiling was lower as a woman , so they , so a man , could look at me and say , well , you'll never be in my role , so I can be really nice to you , whereas maybe another woman said , hey , I don't want you to take my job , so back off . You know , I'm , I'm , I'm guessing there that that could have been , you know , somewhat of a factor . It was never for me about , you know , taking someone's job . It was more about how can we all kind of work together and the lessons I learned by you know , maybe not being as respected in .

Speaker 4 31:24

You know , when I was behind the desk in a hallway answering somebody's phone , when that behavior was sort of put forth towards me , it taught me exactly who I didn't want to be . And and I remember thinking , wow , you know , she just called me that . Or you know she just called me her secretary , and actually my title is a coordinator , and and , just because I'm not a big executive , that's a kind of derogatory . You know , take that sort of in a derogatory way , and and and I it's unfortunate .

Speaker 3 31:56

Yeah , I mean , sometimes women don't help women , and that's .

Speaker 4 31:59

That's , yeah , and , and I what I learned from that was , when I'm in that office , it doesn't matter if the person sitting outside my desk is a secretary , they will be called my assistant and I will always make sure that I say they work with me , not for me , and I've never wavered from that and I think to some degree . You know , having that happen to me made me a better , more aware executive and it's made me very conscious of of always wanting to mentor and support rather than , you know , keep people at arm's length and and that's just , you know I , that's always been really important to me . You know , sometimes you learn lessons the hard way and certainly didn't , and it didn't affect my career negatively , but it definitely made me more aware of the differences and the way people perceive , you know , women , women in the business , coming up in the business . So I think there's a lot more transparency now . To answer your question . Sorry to go off on a tangent , but to answer your question , I think there's a lot more transparency , there's a lot more open dialogue . There are certainly a lot more organizations that empower women with knowledge , with resources , with connections and and encourage these kinds of open conversations .

Speaker 4 33:24

You know , gosh , if I had ever said to someone back then . You know , hey , I'd like a light , I'd like a work-life balance . I would have been shown the door Cause , what's that ? That wasn't even a term . You know , um , I think it's great that that young people coming up in the business are mindful of that . You know , um , and that it isn't expected , uh , to not have a family .

Speaker 4 33:44

If you want to have a family , or you know , the one thing that I think is , you know , and certainly there's more , there's still more work to be done . You know , pay , I don't believe is equity . I don't think there's equity in pay , yet , you know , I can't prove that , but I'm pretty sure that that's still . You know that that's still a work in progress . The one thing that I would love to see this is where , maybe this is a strange thing to say for all of the wonderful organizations that support women and creators and I'm a member of and an active volunteer in many I wish there were more that included men or all genders , let's say . You know what I mean Like included everyone , because sometimes I think , you know , when it's sort of focused on one specific thing in particular , whether it's gender , whether it's , you know it's the whole point is that we all , we all work together in this industry . And how do ? You , how do you ?

Speaker 4 34:46

get a man to think differently about speaking to a woman in a certain way if the man isn't involved in that conversation .

Speaker 3 34:54

You know yeah , I mean , I guess grammy , you does that a bit , it's , it's , it's all , all gender there are yeah and that's , but that's .

Speaker 4 35:01

that's a very specific organization for , for , you know , sort of emerging , you know , as far as everyone in the business . So , yeah , more organizations and , you know , advocacy communities that are popping up that could also include everyone and so that we can all learn how to engage with each other more effectively and talk about these things in a room full of everyone . That that's . You know that's a weird thing to say , but that's I . There are some organizations that do that and there are also some that honor , you know , not just women executive , even if it's a more focused on sort of uh , you know , um , a specific area , whether it's production or behind the scenes creation . There are a lot of organizations to support creators behind the scenes , and I think that's amazing and also very needed , because that's always been sort of inherently more of a boys club , but anyway , so that's where I think there still could be Trying to make .

Speaker 3 35:59

Make organizations that work with all genders so that they're sort of coming up together and working together to work better together .

Speaker 4 36:05

Yeah , because that's the business . You know . We're not going into companies where there's only one gender or one type of creator . How do we all learn to work together and be more mindful of each other's strengths and these pitfalls and these problems that are still , sort of , you know , inherent in the business ?

Speaker 3 36:29

Yes , and then something I'm trying to do here is , even though it's called , she Creates Noise , and I'm interviewing women . You know I'm trying to , not not a boo-hoo attitude , you know , because there are a lot of women like yourself that have really made a difference and opened a lot of doors . And even what you're talking about with making sure young executives or young assistants now are treated with respect in ways that you felt you were not , yeah , it was much more customary back then .

Speaker 4 37:03

You know , whatever your title was and my first title , I think , was like receptionist secretary . So it's not that the people who referred to me as that , you know calling me something that I wasn't , but there was always a different perception of that word in the industry and I learned that really quickly that , you know , a secretary was someone who was really just an administrator and that's an incredibly important and valuable position . I'm not trying to , you know , but , but there are people who were secretaries for big executives whose role was to be that position of service and there wasn't an aspiration to , you know , go into other areas . For me it was a , it was a stepping stone because I always kind of knew what I wanted to do and I was so grateful to get those opportunities . But I always wanted to be more and I worked hard to prove myself and so it just was something that always stuck with me .

Speaker 4 37:53

Like you know , the different , the different ways that a title can brand you , and and for women in the day that I grew up , being called a secretary was considered sort of you like that's the lane you are . You know , I remember somebody sort of asking me that's the lane you are . You know , I remember somebody sort of asking me about myself when I was sitting behind a desk and uh , and they're like , oh , who are you ? You're new , you know where , what's , what's your deal here ? And uh , and you know , and I made some comment like , oh , yeah , and I'm , you know , went to Cornell . Oh , you mean , you're smart .

Speaker 4 38:22

I was like , oh , like and and , and it was a man said that who almost sort of indicated that being smart in the position of secretary was a liability . And I was like , wow , ok , noted , yikes , yeah , but you know , that's like maybe the worst thing that ever happened to me . So that's OK , that's , that's pretty good . I understand Scheme of all the things that could happen when you're starting to try to build a career and a reputation . I laugh at that stuff now and think it's kind of quaint . But also that stuff just reminded me of , like , who I didn't want to be and how I had to treat people .

Speaker 3 38:59

Good story , because I've heard some much more concerning stories , but , you know , in a funny way . But this is nice to hear that you had such a pleasant , you know , hard working but still didn't didn't have too many people insulting you in any way .

Speaker 4 39:07

Well , and I learned how to have a thick skin . When those things happened , or when I felt that I was being slighted or not heard ,

Advice for Music Industry Careers

Speaker 4 39:14

I just always really tried to rise above it and to not dwell . And it's not to say I didn't go home and , you know , fall into a puddle on some days , but I think it made me stronger , it made me more aware and certainly , when I think about where I'm at now and how to shape , reshape that narrative to to do better with , you know , in my current circumstances and as a mentor , that's great , I'm so impressed .

Speaker 3 39:54

Yeah , and I want some of that . I want that , believe me every .

Speaker 4 39:58

You know every day is a different day and you know , but but I , I , I do try to , as best as possible , be glass half full and contribute as much as I'm able , and challenge myself to do more every day , which is a little exhausting , but awesome too Well .

Speaker 3 40:11

I know you and I had the same Grammy U mentee and she's a big fan . I told her I was going to interview you . She's lovely and you know . I know she felt you were incredibly helpful and supportive to her .

Speaker 4 40:23

I love that program and I have met and , you know , engaged with some incredible students . You know , many who have gone on to be working in the business , and great roles . It's such a , it's such a . I wish there was an opportunity like that for me starting , you know , in this career . Those kind of organizations or those kinds of programs didn't , as far as I know , didn't exist back in the day .

Speaker 3 40:48

You're very active and is there anyone you're looking at or some artists you're excited about right now , or maybe you can't mention their names . I probably can't mention the ones . I'm in the middle of , but yes , always yes .

Speaker 4 41:00

I'm always looking . There are a couple of artists that I'm in the process of , hopefully getting deals closed fairly soon . Really , you know quite different the ones that I'm currently in process with might surprise some people when the records come out , and that's really fun and exciting . And again to have the opportunity to work with such a broad range of talent at a company like mine is such an incredible gift . Also just continues to allow me to really grow creatively and to walk into new relationships with new ideas and different .

Speaker 3 41:38

You know we're not following , we're not sort of following trends , and I love that about our company so , lee , um , thank you so much again for all of your interesting uh insights , and I just thought , while we're sort of finishing up here , we could talk about what advice you would give to people that want to get into this business , um , especially women who are looking towards a career in the music industry . What are your insights and thoughts about that ?

Speaker 4 42:14

I mean , one of the things I always say to students and mentees is , if you want to be in this business , it starts with a love of music and a passion for wanting to work around that art in whatever capacity . But it's not just about music . You should really be educated , not just about music but about you know music sort of is shaped by and drives culture . Pay attention to everything you know . Read books , not just about music . Read literature . Read books to expand your mind . Watch films , watch documentaries . Pay attention to what's happening globally Music is really on a global scale or there are trends happening outside the US . The more you educate yourself and become a very well-rounded human , the more you bring to the role whatever the role is in music and the arts in general .

Speaker 4 43:09

There's so much cross-collaboration . Music that is in is found in so many places now , which is amazing . But how can you be better informed about how those opportunities can be created ? You know finding music in a video game , an international film . I always just sort of encourage students to and you know rising executives to just build you know work on , be curious . You know I just want to encourage curiosity and knowledge and creativity and I think that , whatever role it is that you're looking to do in this business , if you're curious , and you're , and you operate from a place of integrity and love and passion and at least for me service , then you're going to find something that's rewarding and you can build towards that . So you know , it isn't just about , hey , be an expert in one thing . I'm a big proponent of know about as much as you can about everything , and then the lane that you are best suited for you'll be able to bring a lot to that role .

Speaker 3 44:09

So just be a well-rounded person and jump in at any level . I think is another thing . Like you were saying , you started out as an assistant slash secretary , yeah .

Speaker 4 44:18

And don't be afraid of that . Whatever the entry point is , honestly , if you start at that ground level , it gives an opportunity for learning . I tried to be a sponge when I was sitting out in the hallway or sitting behind the receptionist desk and talking to people and asking questions and when you're young and you're trying to figure out who you are and what you want to be in this business in the world . I do find that if you ask respectfully , most people have answers and most people want to engage with you and I built a lot of relationships early on in my career by being curious and asking questions and I try to still do that . I ask questions of my students and my mentees because I learned from them . They're growing up at a different time and a different vantage point in the business , really a different industry than I grew up in and that we grew up in . I ask questions and I learn and I think that's part of the joy of being in a kind of evolving , creative business .

Speaker 3 45:16

Yeah , it's exciting . Well again , Lee , thank you so much . It's been great to have you and I look forward to listening and learning as I listen to all the cool stuff we spoke about . And thanks for being a guest today .

Speaker 4 45:31

Well , thank you , sarah , for inviting me . This was really fun to talk about some things that I haven't talked about in a long time , and it's really wonderful that you're doing this , and I think it's great to be able to highlight people's stories and share this with anyone , with you know , uh , with anyone who cares to listen . So , um , thank you for making time to do this thank you so much , voice she creates noise .