Hitmaker Tiffany Red on Making Sure Songwriters Get Paid

Millions of streams don't guarantee a living wage. Tiffany Red explains why—and what songwriters can do about it.

Platinum selling, Grammy nominated songwriter Tiffany Red, is major spokesperson for songwriters rights. From writing poems at age 12 in her New Jersey home to landing major credits with artists like Zendaya and Jason Derulo, contributing to a Grammy-winning Jennifer Hudson project, and earning another Grammy nomination with Fantasia, Tiffany’s story makes one thing clear: talent is real, but the system determines whether talent gets paid properly and it often doesn’t. She wants to change that.
 
 We talk about the exact moment the music business math changed, from CDs and iTunes downloads to the streaming era where massive numbers can still mean shockingly small checks. Tiffany breaks down how standard publishing contracts miss modern reality, why format shifts like EPs can quietly reduce what “counts,” and how fear keeps creators silent when they should be advocating for themselves. She also connects the dots between power, education, and enforcement, including what she has learned through her advocacy work with the 100%-ers. 
 
 Then we get practical. Tiffany shares negotiation tactics from her book “How to Negotiate with A$$holes in the Music Business", including how to spot manipulation early, what stonewalling looks like once you’re in a deal, and why building a paper trail can protect your rights. We also zoom out to women in music: sisterhood, women-led community, safer studio spaces, and advice for younger artists who want longevity without losing themselves. 
 
 Subscribe to She Creates Noise, share this conversation with a creator who needs it, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

https://www.the100percenters.com/

 https://www.instagram.com/iamtiffanyred/

Transcript

Opening And Season Context

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I was like, I'm just gonna go build a business and do what I want to do and make the money that I should be making as a songwriter. Cause I'm not confused. I know that I should already be rich, but I'm not because of the system, not because of my talent or because of my output. Like I did the, I did the work, I did the records, but it pays like crap. She creates mice.

SPEAKER_04 0:24

She creates the mice. She's lovely, powerful voice. She creates noise. She creates. She creates noise. She creates.

SPEAKER_05 0:40

Noise. And welcome to She Creates Noise. I'm Sarah Nagurney, songwriter, producer, manager, and your host, and I'm so grateful you're here. As many of you know, She Creates Noise is about highlighting the women who shape the music industry. Executives, producers, songwriters, managers, artists, and advocates who have built lasting careers in a challenging and constantly evolving landscape. We want to tell these stories to amplify these women's accomplishments and to inform and educate listeners about their journeys. This season, we have featured mentor and artist pairings, including AC Scott, who began her singing career in her 60s, alongside her mentor, the remarkable AR executive Kate Hyman, who also joined us in season one. We'll have a thoughtful mental health episode featuring top-tier industry leaders, artist manager Erica Ramon, and Kathy Olsen, founder of Hollywood and Mind, exploring the emotional realities behind the music business. Recently we sat down with the extraordinary hit songwriter Bonnie McKee, known for her work with Katy Perry, Pam Shane, who co-wrote Jeanie in a Bottle, and Lauren Christie, who co-wrote Complicated for April Levine. As we are nearing the end of this season, we'll be talking with Michelle Lewis, CEO of Asuna, and singer-songwriter Sammy Ray, along with some more voices who continue to move the industry forward. There have been so many interesting guests, and I'm honored that so many incredible women have joined me here. I'm excited for you to hear their stories about craft, leadership, longevity, and what it really takes to build a meaningful career in music. If you'd like to know more about me and my own journey as a songwriter and producer and artist development strategist, you can always check out the trailer. Thank you for coming back. Thanks for listening. And please leave a comment or review. It really helps the algorithm recognize that these conversations matter, and it helps more people then discover the show. Thanks again.

Meet Tiffany Redd

SPEAKER_05 2:43

Today's guest is Tiffany Redd. Tiffany, you've had an incredible journey from your early days growing up in New Jersey to writing for major artists like Zendaya, Jason DeRullo, contributing to the Grammy Winning Project with Jennifer Hudson, and earning another nomination with Fantasia. Can you take us back to the beginning and how that path first unfolded for you? Wow. Wow, I know that's a big one. And so so nice to have you.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Thank you for thank you for joining us. Thank you,

Poems To First Song Breakthrough

SPEAKER_00 3:11

of course. Okay, so I started writing when I was 12. And it started with poems. And I journal a lot. I still to this day I journal often, on and off, but like always have a journal. I thought I was so deep just writing in my, you know, writing my little poems. But it wasn't until I got into college. I did a a year at a community college called Camden County College in New Jersey. I was, what, 18, 19? And I oddly met so many people who did music randomly at this community college. Like it wasn't like it was like a music school or anything like that. But they're just, I don't know, you know, you just right place, right time. That's just what was supposed to happen. And so I was surrounded by a lot of people who did music. And I was cool with this guy named Blair, and he he knew how to play the piano. And I used to let him like read my poems and stuff. And one day he asked me, like, you know, have you ever thought about trying to turn your poem into a song? And I was like, no. So we we went to the auditorium at our school, sat at the piano, and I wrote my first song, and it was called Forever and a Day. And it was just like light bulb. Like it was so, I never felt like that in my life about anything. Like I was a lazy kid. I was a C student. I got fired from all my part-time jobs. I just wanted to have fun. I just wanted to party. I was not doing good in school when I was at college. I was BSing in the cafeteria with my friends who do music. Like I wasn't, I hadn't been serious about anything yet in my life. And I mean, I was a year out of high school. I was still young, you know. I instantly felt like, oh my God, I love this. Like I instantly loved it. I was like, oh my God, I want to do, I want to do this. So you it kind of found you in a way. Yeah, it did. And that cafeteria. In that Gamden County College cafeteria with with, you know, friends. The time between like the light bulb moment and my first cut was really short. So I started making music and taking it serious when I was 19. And I have always been like a like a big, like, techie person. My dad used to be a computer network engineer. And so, like, I don't know, I just think I just get it honest, like just using the internet. And obviously, this is the beginning, you know, big the beginnings of social media or social networks.

MySpace Networking And The Underdogs Email

SPEAKER_00 5:33

At that point, MySpace was still a thing, but MySpace music was like huge in the music scene as far as like networking, connecting with new people, and it was the way to, you know, meet people. So I met a few producers who sent me a couple of beat CDs and I wrote some songs and you know, um recorded them at my cousin's, you know, home studio in Brooklyn. You were upped. Oh my God. I was in love. Like I was like, I love this. Like I love this. But what led me to like actually like pursuing music though was there was this album out, an artist named Omarion, and there was a song on his album. I think it was the album Oh, I think I can't remember. I think it was that though. It was whatever album had Icebox on it. But that there was a song on there called Midnight that I absolutely loved. I was like, oh my gosh, I love the song. And this was like the beginning of me starting to read like the credits. I never really used to read the credits like that, but I was just curious who did that song. And I looked up the credits, and it was a production company called The Underdogs. And so I was just like, who is the underdogs? Like, and so then I started looking them up, and they had did like all my favorite songs. And so I was like, all right, well, let me see if they have a website. So they had a website and they had a contact page, and I just clicked three people. There was like a bunch of bubbles that were like faces. I know any of them were. I just clicked three of the faces, cold emailed all of them, and one of the people responded.

SPEAKER_05 7:05

Wow. I I love that because it's good for young people to hear that you just have to have the determination and put yourself out there. Don't think too hard, just go.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Oh, yeah. They were one of many people that I like tried to get in contact with. Like I was trying to get in contact with record labels. I was networking in my local, like I would always be um like at the clubs with my girlfriends on the weekends in Philly, and like I started meeting the DJs, and then I met DJs who don't who still knew how to produce, and I let, you know, met the local producers. Like I was networking and trying to meet people. I would go to New York back then. A lot of record labels had street teams, and people would hang up like posters and stuff like that for local talent or you know, talent on the roster. And like I was like trying to get to be a part of the street. I was trying to find a way in. That's that's the way to do it. You gotta do that, yeah. Yeah, I was trying to find a way in and they answered the the the uh email and the rest is history.

SPEAKER_05 8:03

Wow, that's I love that. I really love to hear those stories. And it's it is a lot harder today, but still, I think if you're out there and making music and just doing something authentic, people can find you.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

But I think it's about being discoverable, right? Like I, for whatever reason, I don't know what it is, but just like a personality trait of mine is like, I don't really care what people think about me. I've always been like that since I was little. I can see I can see that. Right. I'm like, I don't know you, but I feel like I know that. Oh, I could I like God bless my parents, you know, because raising a little, like a little person that like I always was fully, I fully understood that I had free will from the beginning. Like I always knew that it was up to me. I wasn't afraid of rejection. Like I wasn't afraid of like not getting an answer to an email, but because I just knew like it wasn't gonna be because I didn't try. It's not gonna be because you didn't get my demo, because I sent it. It might be bad, but I sent it. Or it might have wound up in the trash, but it's not that you didn't try. I shoot in, but I shot my shot.

SPEAKER_05 9:09

It ended up in the trash can, but I shot it.

unknown 9:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:12

And obviously people listen because you know, you did you did a lot of great stuff. Well, that there's a wonderful story and also a road to the you know, further chapters with all the amazing success you had uh and built your own catalog as an artist.

When Streaming Shrinks Songwriter Income

SPEAKER_05 9:26

How did those experiences shape your understanding of the business side? And was there a specific turning point when you started to realize the system itself needed to change?

SPEAKER_00 9:36

I think my entire career I always knew there was something wrong with the system from the beginning. I was like, and then I also had like my mom, my mom is an accountant. So, like I told you, my dad is a computer network engineer, my mom is an accountant, and they also are a business owner. My grandmother was an accountant, my little brother is an accountant, serious people, teachers and doctors, I've you know, OBGYNs and all like I got like serious, like really educated. My grandmother went to warden, like really educated people in my life. My mom was always like, that's not how business works. That's not how this doesn't make sense. Like she always, but I was always like, it's my dream. I thought she was trying to be a dream killer, but that was when I was young, you know, it's my dream. I'm gonna do it, you know. Um, but I think that like, you know, when I started doing music, it was in the transition between down physical or like physical copies going out of style. CDs, in other words, right? CDs were going out of style. Down iTunes was what was emerging. I moved to LA and I started doing music professionally in 2007. I got my first placement, or that Jennifer Hudson song was my first placement, and it was with the underdogs. I ended up signing to them, right? And ended up working with them.

SPEAKER_05 10:53

That's crazy. And that was your first Golly. That was your Grammy winning first. Unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Yeah, it was my first one with them. They were actually, they were working on they did Dream Girls soundtrack. They did the score, they like scored the movie and all of that. And so that was how I ended up getting the opportunity to work with Jennifer Hudson because they were already, I think Hervey vocal produced her whole project or something like that. And so, yeah, that was my first place. How crazy is that?

SPEAKER_05 11:17

For first place on like an Oscar winning. Wow. Well, you would it was just meant to be, man. It was meant to be.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Yeah, it was, it was, it was unreal. But like when that came out, that was like I went and bought that CD. You know what I mean? Like I went and got it, and like, you know, it was like a weird space for music. Like technology was like clearly we had already gone through the like Napster Limewire. Like that was like, I don't know when exactly it was it that came to an end, but I know that when I got into music, I know that wasn't going on anymore. But I was in this transition, you know, like where even with like my first publishing contract, right? Like there were things like my deal was a for where I was at in my career, my deal was a fair deal for a new songwriter, brand new, it was a fair deal. And I'm talking like and it was a standard deal, right? There wasn't really anything different from like terminology wise. And who was that with? Underdogs. It was with the underdogs in Universal. Yeah, I was signed with them for like maybe eight years. I think from 2008 to 20, I think 2016 or 2017 was when I got off the deal. In that time, though, like there was so much stuff that was changing in music. Like, I remember when it went from everybody would only make albums, people weren't making EPs. So EPs didn't count towards my publishing deal because people didn't do EPs, right? And I was assigned to a major, and so they independent artists weren't a part of my deal. There were so many things that didn't count, but that was because that was the structure of the system at that point, right? It was like if they were trying to be like work with mainstream stuff, work with our people, work with, you know, and I remember when like things were changing, and I I will never forget the first the what the first artist that I that I work with whose album went from an album to an EP. And I just was like, oh my God, this was a record that I wrote 100% myself. So I own 50% of it, and now it's not gonna count towards my deal because now they've switched it from being an album to an EP. You know what I'm saying? And so, like those kind of things, or like like I remember there's this a record that I worked on that was really successful. I was still a struggling songwriter. I didn't have my own place yet, I didn't have my own car yet, I didn't have my own anything, right? I was really, really, I was couch surfing and grinding it out. And that was in California. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think that when you are at that point in your life, it's very easy to take advantage of people like that, right? Like, because you're vulnerable. A lot of times, people like that, you're vulnerable, you're young. Easy to like, you you accept things that you maybe shouldn't accept because you're just trying to get in the door, kind of thing. And I remember my co-writer of the song brought the whole opportunity to the table. He brought the opportunity, brought in the artists, like developed a relationship with the with the label, all of that. And like it was a big fight between him and the producer because the producer didn't want to pay him any money, even though like the record would have never got placed if he didn't build a relationship. He um kind of almost like kind of helped develop the artist. He produced it, really. He was a producer, yeah. The terminology just hasn't cut hadn't caught up, really. Yeah, he just didn't realize it. He's a producer now, and he calls himself a producer now. And I think a lot of songwriters are producers and don't realize it. And so, like, I remember in that situation, there being a bit of a conflict and me being not vocal, right? I just was like, you're gonna mess it all up. It was like right there, and I just felt like it was all gonna go away if I said something, which is such a terrible place to be, you know. But like moments like that, I noticed, you know, I noticed when I noticed because like I said, I'm somebody that's like completely I operate fully in my will. And so when I'm not, I noticed because that's just naturally who I am, you know.

SPEAKER_05 15:16

You knew that you were holding back, but you didn't feel like you could step up because it was not the right time for you.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Yeah, because I felt because if I lost the opportunity, felt like it would just everything was gonna go away. That's not true. It's not, it's not true, but it felt like it. And I feel like those moments where I had those like it's just like little quiet moments inside of yourself where you're just like, dang, I should have stood up for myself. Dang, I should have said something or I should have did something. So I feel like between that and this transition of like downloads to streaming, and then once we got to streaming, I was like, oh, this isn't making any money for real. Like this was like, I wrote my first hit in 2000, or my first hit came out in 2014, I think. So it was like streaming, but it was also like, so that was replay. Replay is I think three times platinum now, right? But the first that first plot that first million was sales, that was people buying the download for that song, right? And then also the physical copy of the album, which I did did like a three songs on her first project. So my expectation was like those that song recruit my deal, my publishing deal, and two checks. Like, so I was like, that was so I that was my expectation. It was on the radio, it was it was a big song, you know? You thought it was just gonna go on. Well, and I just thought that once I had another big song, that that's what the money would look like. But then I had another big song, and it was in the streaming era, and the numbers were around the same, and the money was not, it was significantly different. Like I'm like, wait, I've made hundreds and hundreds of thousands here, and I didn't even make $50,000 here.

SPEAKER_05 17:06

I know. We're gonna talk about that because I want to talk about the 100%.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

It just like dropped out the stuff.

SPEAKER_05 17:12

Oh my god, I know. It's really every I mean, I was talking to Pam Shane about this, Bonnie McKee, you know, a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

I was talking to my mom about her the other day. We were at um Red Lobster. We took my grandmom there for her birthday. She loves Red Lobster, and Gina, Genie in a bottle was playing, and I was like, I wish I was Pam. She's like, what? And I'm like, girl, I said, I would be straight. I can't even imagine writing a hit or an album cut at that point. Like the underdogs who I was signed to, they was the kings of the album cut. They were the kings of it. And they had a beautiful, ginormous studio on Koenga in the middle of Hollywood with a with with multiple rooms and uh like you they were rich from album first.

SPEAKER_05 18:08

Those were the days, yeah. I know. So your songwriters are definitely not getting

The 100%ers And Real Leverage

SPEAKER_05 18:12

their due. So, with the 100%ers to advocate for creators, which you started, what have you learned from that work that most artists still don't fully understand about how the business operates?

SPEAKER_00 18:22

That you have more power than you think, that there's deep intention around us being uneducated, that there's deep intention around the system staying the way it is. Like it's a full, you go to DC, there's a full the labels have a lobby that's fully funded, right? And I'm somebody that talks to Congress people and senators and their, you know, administrations, and like I I'm confident that there are people who I've talked to whose job it is to make sure that what I have to say doesn't go anywhere. Because you were just the Grammys on the hill, right? It's fully, fully, fully funded bipartisan, you know? And so what I've learned is that like it's not just the education piece, it's the willingness to enforce it. Because at the end of the day, songwriters are independent contractors. Legally, that is how we are classified, which means you are your own business, which means you make up the rules of your own business. Now I understand in an industry, there are industry standards in any industry. So it's like if you're in the grocery industry and you're the one that decides to make this bread and your bread, you charge your $50 for your bread when the most of the market's bread is around this to this. Like I understand economics, but I think that, and I'm just saying this being somebody that really pushes back against industry standards. Like people tell me songwriters don't get paid. I get paid. I know people who get paid, and I know how to use the system to get paid. Do you give classes, by the way? Not yet. Something you should think about. I think. Oh, I'm thinking about it. I want to teach. I want to, I've been talking to a few different universities in in um LA. Yeah, I would love to teach. It is knowing what to do and then doing it and then standing in it. I think a lot of people, and this is just like life in general, it's not even just being a songwriter. You can't get something if you're not willing to give something. And giving something might be the opportunity. But if the opportunity, if the moment that you speak up or negotiate, the opportunity goes away, that means that that opportunity was not mutually beneficial. And what I'm trying to get more songwriters, producers, artists to understand is mutually beneficial business. Let me give you an example. Here's something that I would absolutely, if I ever did another deal, I would do this. I would put a key man clause in a publishing deal. Good thing to have, hard to get, but yeah, good thing to have. It's not hard to get. You just gotta hold, you have to negotiate. You have to be willing to not take a deal. That's it. That's it. It's not hard to get. It's not hard to get if you negotiate, but you have to be willing to lose deals to get to the deal you want. There's, I don't know anybody that's like, oh, I went to this company because of the company. No, I went to the company because of this person. And then you go to the, and I'm just saying this having gone through this before, like where you're at a company or like the company gets bought or merger, or and now all of a sudden the people who were invested in your career are no longer there. How do you protect yourself in your contract? That's how writing things in your contract that put benchmarks that give your publisher, your label things that they need to do as well. And if they don't do them, that's the way that you get out of your deal. But I think it's it is the willingness. And I'm saying this, listen, I have sat through, I love, I love negotiating. Like I've I I one of my one of my goals is to go to law school at some point. I absolutely love it, right? And I can't decide whether I want to be an entertainment attorney or a litigator. I feel like I would be, I know I would be an excellent litigator. Entertainment litigator. How about that? Maybe. Yeah. But what I've learned about the law and about negotiation is that everything that all the things that I advocate for, I've accomplished. People I know have accomplished. I have helped people accomplish. Are some people mad at us for doing it? Yeah. And the thing is, is that's the difference between the people who go for it and don't. You have to be okay with the fact that somebody is not going to like that you figured out the way to get through the system. You think that like everybody at the top, that all of the people in the industry are like love them and were championing them as they were getting there. No. This is a competition. People want to win. And I think that when, like, I know for me in particular, like and with my organization, our work, the things that we do, our activations initiatives, all of it is forward thinking. So I'm not confused about the business being like, hell no. Because we represent change. But it doesn't mean it's not possible. Is it hard? Sure. What is what in the world do we have? You think it was easy for women to get their right to vote? Please. You know what I'm saying? 70 years or something, Chris. And so I just feel like I just be looking at people like girls fine. And I know that might sound heartless or cold, but it's the truth. Only the strong survive in this life. Even when you look at nature, I'm around a lot of nature. And it's the strong that survive. That where I'm at, there's a lot of geese. And every spring or you know, whenever it is, they have their little babies. And they're so cute. And if you know anything about geese, they are like intense, right? They are very territorial. There's also hawks out here where I'm at. And there's like a pond behind my house. And I remember watching the hawks circling the pond as the little baby geese were swimming in the pond with their parents and just hunting, looking for the weakest one. Because that's nature. That's I was like, oh my God, this is so horrible. And it tried to get one. And I remember seeing there was this one goose in a fall for his baby, limped the rest of the summer, but fought to defend its baby. And that's why its baby is here. If you aren't that goose, you will get ate by the hawk. That's just life and everything. It's not just the music business. So I feel like when you show up in the world and you are scared, people know. When you are not willing to advocate for yourself, people know. When you are educated but are afraid to enforce what you know, people know. And you teach people how to treat you. So it's like, you're not getting paid. Well, did you negotiate getting paid? Or something else I always say to people, they're like, Well, they didn't offer. What? You don't when did you ever go to the grocery store and they offered you anything? There's a price tag. There's a knowing. Absolutely. There's a knowing. I probably provide a service. Here is your bill, right? And so I always tell people, you're your own business. They're not supposed to give you the receipt. You're supposed to, but they're not supposed to give you the invoice. You're supposed to provide the invoice. They're paying you.

SPEAKER_05 25:04

People think somehow being an artist, you're not supposed to get paid. Now,

Negotiation Red Flags And Paper Trails

SPEAKER_05 25:08

this brings me to a discuss your book a bit. You outlined some of your tactics in this book that you wrote called How to Negotiate with A-holes in the music business, like lowballing, stonewalling, and emotional manipulation. Which of these show up most often in real life situations? And how can artists recognize it before they get locked into a bad deal?

SPEAKER_00 25:29

I think it's a combination and it depends on what's going on. I think if you're if it's a new deal, it's usually not stonewalling yet. It's usually the manipulation. It's usually somebody trying to rush you. Hurry up, sign this deal. No, you don't need a lawyer. Just do this, do this. Like, you know, you don't want to go through your options. Like, you know, I remember when I did my first deal, I had multiple publishers trying to sign me. And I wish that I would have leaned into that more. I felt like, oh, you're not being loyal. If you go and you look for look at these other options to see what's best. And listen, like, I'm not somebody that has regrets. So if I could go back and do it all over again, I would do it the same. But if you're somebody that has created value for yourself and there's multiple people interested, and there's like one person in your ear being like, no, you just need to do this. That's manipulation. Somebody trying to rush you, like when you're unsure about something, or oh, I need a lawyer to look over this first. Oh, no, you don't need this. Or like I've seen, like, you'll, you'll hear, you know, old stories of like record deals where they'll be like, I didn't let so-and-so leave the office. They signed. No. Don't do it. No. Well, and not only that, that's a strategy. What do you mean I can't leave until I sign this? What am I? A prisoner? You know what I'm saying? Like, and so I think it's, and I think the part of it that's hard is that a lot of times it's somebody that you aspire to be that's offering you the deal. Or it's a company that you want to be a part of, you know. But I think the manipulation part, like, you know, weaponizing the things you don't know. You know, this is a young person business for a reason. It's because it's predatory. You know, young people are easy to take advantage of, they're easy to manipulate to get to do what you want them to do because they don't know what they're supposed to be doing. And, you know, the music business is an influential business. And so whoever has the most influence, like I've learned that from like gaining like visibility from what I do. I could get on the internet and say anything. And people will be like, it's true, Tiffany Redd said it. That's power that I could abuse. And I don't, I illuminate and I'm like, hey, people are misusing this thing, this thing that you're trying to get to. You can, I can lead a whole bunch of people in the wrong direction. And so it's like, even the people who are listening to me, don't take my word for it. Do your research. Get curious for yourself. Don't just like blindly follow people just because they have what you have, because you don't know how they got it. You might not want to do what they did to get work. You know what I'm saying? You don't know what it means you're special.

SPEAKER_05 28:14

I mean, you are trying to advocate for the artist. So people should think you should.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

But they also should do their own due diligence. Don't rely on me to do your work. Don't don't rely on me to be your brain. No, absolutely not. Get curious, learn. And I mean, yeah, fine. If you know, absolutely. I'd love to be, I'd love to be your guide. But like, whether I'm there or not, get curious so that you have the information for yourself. Don't just be blindly listening to anybody. Like, it's just not. So, yeah, I think that when you're first starting out, it's manipulation. I think stonewalling is once you're in it. Once you're in it, now I'm just gonna ignore you. And you'll get tired. I don't get tired. I will send an email for a whole year following up. Hey, still following up on this. Hey, create the paper trail. Create the paper trail because guess what? It's breach of contract for your publisher to not respond to you. They're your partner, they can't just ignore you. It's not how business works. That's a strategy. They're looking for you to just get burnt out. Oh, I keep reaching out. They won't respond, they won't respond, they won't respond, they won't respond. But the thing is, is just as much as you're like, oh, they won't respond, on the end they're like, oh, they sent another message. It's a battle back and forth on who's gonna get worn out. Don't let it be you.

SPEAKER_05 29:38

Right. That's great advice. I like that a lot. We need more people like you telling the artists what they really need to do for themselves. Uh, I know a lot of this came from your experience with the NCT cut boss, where you were not properly compensated, um, and it really exposed the gap between contribution and compensation. How did that situation shape the philosophy behind the book? And what do you hope artists take away from that story in particular?

SPEAKER_00 30:06

The NCT situation is a systemic issue, right? This is not something specific to just like SM entertainment or like this is what I meant when I said I got my next big cut and now it's 2018. Now we're in streaming, but now I'm not making any money. That's when I was like, oh, I'm not writing songs anymore. This doesn't make any money. Like, I'm great at it, but this is why would I do it unless I'm gonna get a single? And even when I got the single, it didn't make any money. It just did not make any money. It didn't. It's so crazy. I just sold, I actually just sold boss. I just sold it, made more money selling it than I made off of it. You know what I'm saying? Like, how are artists going to manage? How are they gonna manage by being business people? Because guess what? Listen, I'm not gonna take credit for anything, but I have heard SM is paying songwriter, uh, songwriter session fees now. I have heard that. I have heard a lot of people are going to Korea now and getting um songwriter fees. Things change. Yeah, that's good. They were like, oh my God, what is she making us look crazy? Things change. What are we gonna do? Keep living and keep doing, keep, keep showing up. And don't just wait on somebody like me because I'm tired. Don't wait on just don't just wait on somebody like me. Stand up for yourself. I feel like my experience being an advocate, so many people just hide behind me. It drives me crazy. Instead of standing beside me, they stand behind me and they're like, yeah, you can just go ahead and let them unload on her, just shoot her up. Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. Everybody's mad at Tiffany. Everybody's the, you know, whether it's the, you know, behind the scenes, I can't. If you can, if you can be a fly on the wall in my life, and you get and you can hear these executives, I can't believe you! Why would losing their what the work that I'm doing, most of it is behind the scenes. And it's like, and not all of it is like that. But but when this is a billion-dollar industry that is used to being one way, some people are more open to things changing than others. That was the eye opener. I was like, oh my God, streaming doesn't make money. And it was like, if I don't have X amount of singles every year, I'm not gonna be able to survive. And that's not realistic. I say this all the time. I came from the major system, right? I wasn't somebody writing for independent artists, I was writing for, I was signed to Universal, right? I was signed to underdogs. We were working with major label artists. It's a really competitive space. There's not that many artists for real. Like, for as much as like people love to be like, you know, hundreds of thousands of songs come out every day. And who's listening to them? You're not listening to them. I haven't heard those hundred thousand songs. I heard those 30 records. It's the still the same thing. It's a it's a lot of extra noise. But at the end of the day, the artists that are mainstream are the ones that rise to the top and get the visibility. There's about a hundred songs that is in rotation, just like the radio. It's the still the same thing. It's still the same system. It's just an illusion that it's not. I just realized it wasn't sustainable. Like long term, where it's at right now wasn't if I only had to depend on streaming income, my life is like this. Because that's what it was. It was like, okay, I got a couple, you know, cuts this year, boom. Or like I remember I was working on um on uh this the show Empire for Fox. I was I did songs for Empire and for Star. That was good money. I had that money was good. It was coming directly to me. I wasn't in a publishing deal anymore. I probably did, I don't know, maybe at least 10 records for that, right? Then the show got canceled. You know what I'm saying? Like, and so I think it's that. It's like it's the gig economy. You are constantly looking for the next gig, and every gig is not the same gig. If you're trying to get on these big artists, people that are shooting for Beyonce. Dream has written Beyonce singles since I don't know when. Like, that's who you're competing with. Her politics. You're competing with who she already loves to collaborate with, her people, her group, her tribe. Like, I have my own tribe too. I don't be trying to work with no new people. I don't want to work with no new people. I want to work with people I love working with. And your music is beautiful, by the way.

SPEAKER_05 34:38

I love your voice.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

You're saying, thank you. But you know what I'm saying? Like, it's like you're competing with a system that's already built. You're shooting, you're shooting at a moving target first, first of all. One second, you know, you're working on somebody's project. One second the album is like this, the next second the album is like that. Literally, I just heard the story of Kaylani's album. After Folded, they scrapped the whole album and built the album around Folded. So imagine if you were the person that wrote any of those songs that was scrapped. That's being a songwriter. And that's like no sh, no, no distance, Kaylani, because that's create the creation of a project. That's making art, right? And you know, things constantly changing. I completely understand why she pivoted. It makes sense. And the album is amazing. But like, you don't have any control. You don't have any control on your work when it's coming out. Like, and depending on who it is that you're working with, you can't even tell anybody, you can't talk about it. You can't like it. There's just so many things that are out of your control. For you to get a check that's not even a lot of money. Absolutely not. No. I was like, I'm just gonna go build a business and do what I want to do and make the money that I should be making as a songwriter. Because I'm not confused. I know that I should already be rich, but I'm not because of the system, not because of my talent or because of my output. Like I did the, I did the work, I did the records, but it pays like crap.

Women Allies Safer Studios Authentic Careers

SPEAKER_05 36:05

She creates noise. It's hard changing uh direction a little bit. I wanted to talk to you because here it she creates noise. It's about women. Um, so I just wanted you to talk a little bit about uh the women in your life and who've been anchors, your guides, and how they helped shape your move through this crazy business.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

The women in my life, well, start with my mom. My mom and my sister. I have incredible friendships, long friendships. I definitely am a collector of people. I have a big support system. My therapist, who's also a woman, love her. My manager, who's also a woman, Maria, who's my partner in crime with everything. Like, she's become my business partner in other business ventures. She's the managing director for the 100%ers now. She's my day-to-day manager. She does like, you want to know something, what's going on with me? Call Maria. She knows everything. And I trust her completely. I've never felt so safe with a manager in my life ever. Like, I told her, I tell her all the time, like, it's gonna be me and you till we old, like, you know, like I'm never, I couldn't imagine like her and us not working together. But it's something special, like, because I mean, obviously, being a woman is different than being a man, right? And so you navigate different things. Like, this is I would say it's TMI, but I mean, I'm open books, I don't really care. Something I'm personally currently navigating right now is um fibroids, right? And just like girly issues and having a lot of women on my team, they understand. So there's no like, I can call Maria and be like, hey, this is what's going on. I'm not feeling good. Can we reschedule this? We, you know, whatever. And she's there's I don't feel uncomfortable or not heard or understood. She's a woman, so she knows what I'm talking about. You know, so she has the compassion to be like, hey, Tif's not feeling good today. You know, we, you know, need to da-da-da-da-da. Like, I just feel like there's uh compassion that having women on the team just, she's like my, I feel like she, she's like my uh bonus mom. She calls all her clients her kids. And I just feel like she's just ferocious. She's just a beast. It doesn't matter what it is, she's always gonna make sure I'm good. Like my parents know her. And yeah, I have a bunch of incredible women in my life who all, you know, support me and remind me of who I am when I forget, are there when I need a a place, a soft place to land, when I'm overwhelmed, when I'm sad, when I'm happy, when I'm in celebration. Like I just have a really, really strong sisterhood around me. And I wouldn't be, I definitely would not be where I am if it wasn't for them.

SPEAKER_05 38:49

So as this podcast is is very much focused on women's experience, where do you feel most hopeful right now when you look at women in the music industry? What's changing for the better? And what is still really frustrating in your opinion?

SPEAKER_00 39:03

I think where I'm hopeful is just seeing how many women are just like doing their own thing, like and not waiting for anybody to let them into the room. There's so many different like women-led organizations, like there's like women-led like studios popping up, and like I think something that's always that's just so beautiful about women in general is we're just so great at creating community. Like, that's just like a trait that we have that there's a lot of that. There's a lot of just grassroots movements and you know, new businesses being started, and women using their full capacity and like using their platforms in ways that we haven't seen. Two of my favorite artists that are like massively big, invisible, who I think are so incredible with how they use their platforms for activism are Kaylani and Chapel Roan. Just so whatever I said, what I said are dochy, same thing. Just so bold and fearless with platform. It's beautiful to see, and that that's encouraging to just see people creating their own thing, not waiting for somebody else to let them into the room. I haven't read the article yet, but I saw a headline, I think it was in like Billboard or something, about Alicia Key saying that the business is still an old boys' club. I just saw that. Yeah, I think today I saw that. But why why am I hopeful? Because she is the music exists. You know what I'm saying? It's not like people are just complaining and just talking. No, people are like organizing, creating the opportunities, doing the work. The conversation is going on and it's raising awareness. Yes, exactly. And we're gonna change it because of that. The needle is moving. That makes me hopeful. That makes me excited. People just keep doing their thing. I'm really passionate about making the music industry a safer place for us to work. I talked to a lot of women offline, women like powerful women, that could be doing a lot more with their power around creating safer spaces instead of trying to be a part of the boys' club or protect the boys' club or be the only one in the boys' club or whatever they are doing with the boys club, you know? And so I would just like to see more energy around creating a safer space because I feel like cult, like where we are in society, it's just like it's so in your face. And so I'm just like looking at every one of the music industry, like, so are we just not gonna say anything about this? Are we not gonna do anything about this? Why are we the, you know, us and like, you know, some other, you know, or we're the only ones that are really like, hey, no, we need to do something about this. We need to make the space safer. We need to create systems to make it safer. I was talking to this one publisher about like a check-in system for the writers on their roster. I'm like, we're in these studios late at night, everyone's not sober. You know, we might be somewhere we've never been before. Oh, where do I park? Oh, I go over here. I'm not sure. Things get tricky. I would like to see more people use their voice and their influence and their power, even if it's not front-facing, to like really hold the line and like hold these powers that be accountable because it just is like it's clear that like it's rampant, it's a massive problem, and there just isn't enough like collective action around it. Yeah, no, no question. Especially with the women. Like when I look at the women in the studio, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:48

Yeah, I'm like, what are y'all doing? I I remember I managed some artists, so there was one artist, pretty cute young girl, and I made sure there was one situation that she had another writer in the room that I knew because I was a little concerned. So, you know, it's like taking people have to look at the situation. I wanted her to be in that co-right, but I wanted to make sure she'd be safe.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

You're even thinking about that in the first place because you're a woman. That's what I'm talking about when I'm like, it's not even sexism, it's literally a difference. It's like there are things that you're thinking about because as a woman, there's things that you go through that a man might not go through or may not go through as often or in different ways experienced differently. I just want to see more women protecting more women. There's not enough women protecting women. There just isn't.

SPEAKER_05 43:30

Let's see that happen. And I I guess final thoughts about advice for younger artists coming up right now.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

Advice for younger artists coming up right now. Don't believe the height. Don't believe that, like, how am I gonna get heard? There's so many songs. And fine, there are so many songs. I'm not saying that that's not true. At this point, where we are right now, in my opinion, I think it it would be it's a little bit easier to cut through because everybody is going against authenticity. So if you just are yourself, you're already past a majority of everybody. Because most people are just doing what everyone else is doing. But the people who excel in this are not the people that follow people's rules. They're not the people who do what everyone's doing. They're the trendsetters. They're the ones who are, they're the people who blaze the trail. They're the people you follow. They're the people you're inspired by. When you look think about the people that you're inspired by, and ask yourself, would they sign that deal? Would they say yes to this? Would they accept that treatment? Would they tolerate this behavior? Would they work for free? Would they quit? How long did it take them to get there? Overnight success is at least 10 years.

SPEAKER_05 44:49

Yeah, there you go. Doesn't it doesn't happen overnight?

SPEAKER_00 44:51

No, it just looks like I was talking to one of my friends the other day about the Grammy's best new artist. It's always somebody, some somebody that everyone's known forever. Victoria Monet, best new artist. Victoria's been the artist of the K Kaylani, having the the, you know, money long best new. It's like, these are people that have been in the music industry their whole life. So it's a journey, it's a long game. Something I think that is imperative is to work across. Don't work, try to work up. Work across because it's gonna be your peers that end up being the next boss of whatever. It's gonna be your peers that end up being the next Rihanna. It's gonna be your peers that end up being like when I look at my peers now, we're all over the place. Like some of us are executives now, some of us are artists and famous, some of us are super huge songwriters, some of us pivoted and became professors in music. We all put in our 10,000 hours. And now when I look at my network, I'm like, oh my gosh, I can go speak at that school because my friend is a professor there. I can go work on that project because my friend is that over there. And I maintain those relationships and trying instead of trying to chase what's already built. I built my own thing. And that's what happens. It's like, you know, don't chase somebody else's thing. The thing that you're chasing is just something that somebody else, but it's a it's just a crew. Like when I think of like, you know, like when I think of music, it's clicky, right? Like you're chasing, you know, oh, I want to be a part of this down with this click. And it's like, or you can make your own click and that'd be the next click that pops off. Because that's how it happens every single time. Like clockwork is the same thing. Rinse and repeat, even though technology and all of this stuff is how it still ends up being the same people. It still ends up being the same people. So focus on the people in front of you, work with your friends, work with your peers, build projects out, challenge each other. I'm not saying not to try to get in a room with big shots too. That's not what I'm saying. But don't make that your end-all be all just focus on that because you're the next big thing. You're gonna be the thing, you're gonna be the person that all these people want to work with. You're the next big thing. You know what you got, you know what the ideas are. You don't need their input, you know it's hot. Trust yourself. Trust yourself, put it out. Let people hear it. Show up, let yourself be seen. Make mistakes, learn, keep going. It's just music, it's not a big deal.

SPEAKER_05 47:15

I love that advice. And also, I want to play a song of yours called Fallen. I appreciate you being here, Tiffany. It's been wonderful to hear your advice and thoughts and experience. I know everyone's gonna enjoy it and learn a lot from it. And it's great to have you. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 47:45

Almost wouldn't believe if it wasn't me. I think we found the kind of thing on this.

Sponsor Credits And Final Review Ask

SPEAKER_05 49:04

I'd like to thank today's sponsor, Herd City, the premier audio post-production company servicing the advertising, motion picture, and television industries right here in NYC. I'd also like to thank Antello, aka X O N, for seeing the She Creates Noise theme that I wrote. Thanks for listening to She Creates Noise. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, rate, and share. I want to thank the team here: Blair Riney, Yelna Stevanovich, Emily Wilson, and the Master of Engineering and Grammy winning Cooper Anderson. We'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_03 49:38

She creates noise. She creates noise. We have voice. She creates noise. She creates noise. She creates noise. We have voice. She creates noise.

SPEAKER_05 50:10

If you enjoy listening to this podcast, please consider leaving a review wherever you listen. For example, we have a comment from Tessie Schultz in Berlin, Germany. A brilliant episode with Karen Viesy. Thanks a lot. Inspiring and great insight. All the best for Berlin. Now we really appreciate those things as it helps the algorithm. We read everything, so please comment, send a review, and we will really appreciate it. And the podcast will do better and get to more people.

SPEAKER_06 50:39

Thanks a lot.