Weaponized Incompetence Isn’t an Accident | w/ Laura Danger S3E6

You’re not “bad at asking for help.” You’re exhausted from carrying everything and being told it’s your fault.

In this conversation, Lisa sits down with author and creator Laura Danger to name what so many women are living with but struggling to explain: weaponized incompetence. Not the harmless “oops, I forgot,” but the pattern of strategic failing, defensiveness, and avoidance that forces women to overcompensate emotionally, mentally, and physically. 

Together, they break down how pretending not to know, asking for lists, and doing things poorly on purpose aren’t misunderstandings but rather power moves. Laura explains how this behavior shows up in caregiving, household labor, and relationships, and why it often crosses the line from unfair to abusive.

This episode exposes why women’s “reactions” get framed as the problem, why men still benefit even in unhappy marriages, and why the burden always lands back on her to manage, explain, soften, and tolerate. If you’ve ever felt crazy for being furious about dishes, laundry, or childcare, this conversation will help you see the bigger truth.

Weaponized incompetence isn’t about chores. It’s about who gets to opt out and who pays for that choice.

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:08:17
Music


00:00:08:19 - 00:00:17:19
Lisa Sonni


00:00:17:21 - 00:00:36:12
Lisa Sonni
So often, you know, men will pretend that they don't know how to do basic household tasks, basic things. They don't know how to do the dishes. They can't figure out the dishwasher. So confusing. Right? Women are just better at it, is the message that we're told. But meanwhile, a lot of women are waking up and discovering weaponized incompetence.

00:00:36:14 - 00:01:01:18
Lisa Sonni
Now, I first heard this in a song like a playful, funny, silly little TikTok song years ago. But when I started following that account, I found other accounts that really talked about this in a way that was eye opening to me. And one of those accounts was my guest, Laura Danger. So I want you to introduce yourself first, and then we're going to kind of get into talking about how men really weaponize this. I don't understand in household tasks.

00:01:01:22 - 00:01:43:19
Laura Danger
Yes. Oh, boy. So excited to get into it. So I'm Laura Danger, author of the book No More Mediocre, where I cover this topic and more. And I also am That Darn Chat on TikTok and Instagram. And yes, I started getting really big over on TikTok primarily, and then over on the other platforms. But in 2020 and 2021, when I really started to get real angry and tired of these super viral hashtag comedy videos that highlighted this behavior of weaponizing incompetence or

00:01:43:19 - 00:01:55:13
Laura Danger
what went very viral as hashtag weaponized incompetence. And yeah, so that's that's how we connected a long time ago. And again, I'm really excited. Get into it. Yeah.

00:01:55:14 - 00:02:16:10
Lisa Sonni
I mean, there's a million things to say. I don't know why, but every time I think about the topic of weaponized incompetence, actually remember a conversation, if you can even call it that, that I don't know why I even bothered to have this conversation with a man, but it went on for days. And I'm telling you, this guy left about 500 comments on two videos that I made over the course of about a week.

00:02:16:12 - 00:02:43:05
Lisa Sonni
He was arguing with every single person in the comments, and his main thing was something that is just so prevalent in the concept of weaponized incompetence, which is basically that women's standards are too high and that if you want the underwear picked up off the floor and it's so important to you, do it yourself. And so the framing both that women's standards are too high and that they should do it themselves. Additionally that women are better at these things.

00:02:43:09 - 00:03:03:04
Lisa Sonni
And like I could talk for hours on these topics. But the thing is, women are experiencing this. This isn't some silly little online chat, right? Like you know, she didn't communicate what she wanted. It's just the difference in standards. That one actually just pisses me off the most. Can we start with you just like really baseline saying what is weaponized incompetence?

00:03:03:04 - 00:03:04:17
Lisa Sonni
What does it actually entail?

00:03:04:19 - 00:03:37:07
Laura Danger
Yeah. So weaponizing competence, it's a spectrum. But in general it is failing on purpose in order to avoid accountability. And at the base level, it's a harmful behavior. It's often part of a pattern. And when it's a part of a pattern, it is very clearly within the realm of an abusive behavior. It is often a behavior of, you know, so you fail at something on purpose, which causes the other party who is on the receiving end of this behavior to make up the difference, to overcompensate.

00:03:37:10 - 00:04:00:23
Laura Danger
Oftentimes, there is an emotional backlash that comes with calling it out. There's so there's this lack of accountability with it. Sometimes the weaponized incompetence is sabotaging something to the point where there is harm in it. So oftentimes this shows up when there is a caregiving role. So imagine there are two parents and a child and one party oftentimes mom.

00:04:01:01 - 00:04:26:12
Laura Danger
Because socially we put a lot on mom's shoulders. And the mom is the primary caregiver. Mom takes care of everything, gives all the lists, directs and monitors everything. And then she is very tired. She says, hey, could you watch the baby while I take a shower? And while she's in the shower, she can hear the baby crying. She notices that the baby gets into something that they shouldn't get into while she's in the shower.

00:04:26:16 - 00:04:45:17
Laura Danger
If she is frustrated when she gets out with what she should have reasonably been able to count on a partner to take care of a child while she's in the shower. If she's frustrated with the behavior and brings it up, weaponized incompetence would be the backlash. It would be the What did you expect? I didn't do that bad of a job.

00:04:45:20 - 00:05:09:03
Laura Danger
That would be the avoidance of, the dismissal, the downplaying of what happened, the impact on the child and the impact on her. So when this becomes a pattern of downplaying, dismissal, avoidance, when the child or the person being cared for continuously is not getting their needs met, it's removing the choice from the other partner. She can't take a shower safely.

00:05:09:07 - 00:05:22:17
Laura Danger
She ends up bearing the burden. And making sacrifices, overcompensating, having to push down her resentment. ultimately, that is controlling her choices. So that's where this power comes from?

00:05:22:19 - 00:05:40:19
Lisa Sonni
Absolutely. And I mean, listen, the root of abuse is power and control. And a lot of people are like, oh, you know, my husband. He always whatever. He never whatever. And I know, like, my personal examples are always dishes and laundry because I feel like those are things everybody has dishes And this idea of like, oh, you just do the laundry differently.

00:05:41:00 - 00:06:04:06
Lisa Sonni
It is maddening. Or the framing of, you know, my children's father constantly used to say, you know, like, they're fine. They're alive. What's your problem? They're alive by the by sheer luck. Dude, you were asleep. Like, it's it's it would be criminal if this if something happened, it would be front page news that dad was sleeping when something happened. You know, and.

00:06:04:07 - 00:06:25:02
Lisa Sonni
And if a mother was sleeping, might God right. The difference. So it's interesting though because it always comes back to her reaction as the problem. And I'm saying that I want to highlight that because even when I'm not talking about weaponized incompetence, her reaction is the problem is abuse. That's what's happening in weaponized incompetence. But people act like it's a communication issue.

00:06:25:03 - 00:06:35:13
Lisa Sonni
You know, you should have told him that he was shouldn't sleep while you're taking a shower so that the infant is supervised. You. You had to explain the dishes. Need soap. Are you kidding?

00:06:35:13 - 00:07:10:09
Laura Danger
Right? that's where. So the social idea that women should be the managers, the list makers telling everybody what to do creates this environment where it's really easy to blame women when it veers into this really dangerous area because, okay, it could be reasonable if somebody like, if I'm not used to doing the laundry and I don't realize that my spouse sorts things maybe, or that, oh, he throws in the, the dry clean only shirt. And I'm just like, maybe I accidentally wash it.

00:07:10:09 - 00:07:32:01
Laura Danger
Maybe I don't pull things out of the pockets. Whatever. Totally reasonable mistakes to make. Yeah. And even if I'm called out for it, it is also pretty reasonable for me to feel I don't defensive if I, you know, he's, like calling me out on something. I and I did something in good faith like, you know, it's an honest mistake and he's frustrated with me.

00:07:32:04 - 00:07:51:03
Laura Danger
That's a reasonable tension and conflict. Now, if I said you do it yourself, next time, I'm not doing it anymore. Or you should have known better than to ask me. I don't know how to do laundry if I don't make any effort to change. If I don't acknowledge that, yes, it did have an impact on him. The intent matters.

00:07:51:06 - 00:08:13:06
Laura Danger
Yes, very much. And the impact matters. Like regardless of my good intent, it it really doesn't matter. As someone who has ADHD and whose capacity wanes with my mental health, or just being a human. This stuff's going to go wrong and there are going to be things I'm not good at. It's the emotional backlash, the control and coercion,

00:08:13:06 - 00:08:40:05
Laura Danger
the it. A lot of times this is and not using it in the pop culture pop psych way, but it's gaslighting. Yes, love the inconsistency of what did you expect that I was going to know how to do this? Well, yeah, because like reality tells me that if you can do a similar task outside of the home and you, you should be able to do it at home, that's a reasonable thought. Yeah. It

00:08:40:05 - 00:08:41:18
Laura Danger
becomes really confusing.

00:08:41:22 - 00:09:00:18
Lisa Sonni
I agree. Like, I thought you guys were leaders. I thought you were CEOs. I thought you should run the world. You can't figure out the dishwasher. I don't, I don't understand. It's so perplexing to me. I know, I feel like I've said this a million times, but if you like to eat off of clean plates, then you know that plates need to be clean.

00:09:00:20 - 00:09:18:16
Lisa Sonni
Wow. We. You know that. We keep them in the cupboard, right? Right over there. Because when you want to make yourself something, you know where to get the clean plates from. So you know that they need to be cleaned and be put there first. Like, not to be patronizing, but my God, I just. I'll never understand how they are so good at derailing the conversation.

00:09:18:19 - 00:09:32:11
Lisa Sonni
And as soon as we start talking about, well, did you tell him right? Did you did you explain, like you said, do the dishes? So he just put them in the dishwasher? He didn't know that you meant put them away, too. He didn't know you meant put soap in and run it. He loaded it. He didn't run it.

00:09:32:13 - 00:09:53:01
Lisa Sonni
My God, I. I will never forget the fury inside me. But I see it in my clients all the time. Just the absolute, like exhaustion and rage at the way that it gets flipped. And then the defensiveness comes in which, as you said, like, listen, anybody being, I want to say criticized, but even provided some kind of feedback on the way they do something.

00:09:53:01 - 00:10:06:15
Lisa Sonni
I can imagine that there there needs to be a good way to communicate that. But when there's a pattern and eventually she's snapping at you or ripping your head off, I see a woman who's fed up. I see a woman who's asked too many times.

00:10:06:20 - 00:10:40:09
Laura Danger
Well, and that's the weird part that I think it's skipped over and I have seen it in the public conversation a lot more recently. Because the, the statistic about women, asking for a divorce, initiating the divorce process, like what, 80% of divorces are initiated by women. There are many reasons for that. But one thing that really messes with my head, that when you zoom in on it is very clear, is if there is consistently a problem in your relationship with, oh, gosh, she's always telling me I'm doing it wrong.

00:10:40:09 - 00:11:09:13
Laura Danger
I can never get it right. She's always on my case, always telling me what to do. Her standards are outrageous. If that is such a constant negative thing, wouldn't you want to fix it? Like, what steps are you taking to confront this pattern of, negative pattern? There often aren't any steps being taken. And if it is such a toxic situation that is not getting fixed, wouldn't you want to initiate a separation?

00:11:09:18 - 00:11:28:11
Laura Danger
And a lot of times, that is not what happens. It becomes a control loop way of putting her down and saying you're just too your core, too needy, too much, constantly nagging, something's wrong with you. And in fact, I love you anyway. Which of course is abusive.

00:11:28:14 - 00:11:45:21
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I have a theory though, actually, in what you said, why do the men stay? Because you hear this a lot, right? Like, oh my God, she's so controlling. She's always on me about the dishes. She's always complaining. Nothing I ever did was good enough. And then they're like, oh my God, the divorce came out of nowhere and all the women are like, no, it did not.

00:11:46:00 - 00:12:06:05
Lisa Sonni
But why does he stay? I saw this comment on TikTok and it wasn't. It was a woman making a video, but it was a comment in her comment section. She was talking about how even bad marriages men still benefit from. Like, listen, we know men benefit from marriage. I know men get really mad at that because they don't necessarily agree because some men are blind to all of their benefits.

00:12:06:10 - 00:12:29:18
Lisa Sonni
But what's interesting is why do the men who are like, oh my God, my wife is so bad? So this and such a nag, he stays because he still benefits, because all he has to do is use things like weaponized incompetence. And then the dishes are magically done and he gets sex, and he gets a house, and the married man thing and the vibe and the family, all while she's carrying everything. The truth is that women need to hear.

00:12:29:22 - 00:12:47:00
Lisa Sonni
Doesn't care. Shut up. Stop talking. He doesn't care. I'm not saying to women to shut up. And his mind. stop talking about these damn dishes and just do them yourself, the problem will go away. Meanwhile, no, her problem will only become bigger. And she will become part of that 80%. It's just that simple.

00:12:47:05 - 00:13:19:21
Laura Danger
I'm okay. So again, I think we really have a terrible set up in society. And when it comes to the standards for relationships, for enabling that kind of behavior, because this is something I talk about in the book and No More Mediocre the concept of the nag paradox, which isn't always weaponized incompetence. It is often this is just like the standard setup that so many of us see of one party as a domestic engineer and the other party is supporting them, or like playing the supporting role.

00:13:20:00 - 00:13:40:13
Laura Danger
So the nag paradox would be one party saying, just, make me a list, just tell me what to do. And then they flip it and they go, don't tell me what to do. And it's this defensiveness that comes out of it. And, anybody who's ever tried to look up like, oh God, how can I fix this dynamic will have found the Gottmans

00:13:40:13 - 00:14:05:08
Laura Danger
and the Gottman Institute has studied relationships, and they have a lot of really good research and and great tools for communication. And one of the things that I have seen weaponized is they talk about this soft start. And, so there is there are these four horsemen of relationships that, that if they're present, it's high likelihood that your relationship will end or fail.

00:14:05:08 - 00:14:33:17
Laura Danger
They, you know, and it's not a failure if it ends. That's great for everybody often. But, that the marriage will end. It's defensiveness, criticism, stonewalling and contempt. And then they also provide the antidotes. And so one of the antidotes of, of criticism of this would be or defensiveness would be a soft start. So like, hey, you know, I know you're trying your best and, you and I don't want to have these conflicts.

00:14:33:17 - 00:15:14:08
Laura Danger
I really want to feel more connected. Could we get ahead of this would be like, you know, softening the way that you talk, coming in good faith to a conversation, considering their feelings. Ultimately, it's emotional labor. And when one party is overwhelmed and overburdened with the mental and emotional load and is constantly in a place of asking for help, always when things get overwhelming, they are going to have to overcompensate overwhelmingly. Focus on their partner or housemate on their feelings regardless of how they're feeling, and are constantly tasked with having to start the conversations.

00:15:14:08 - 00:15:32:10
Laura Danger
And if someone is the more passive one and is waiting for directions, they don't have that labor. They don't have to do it. And in fact, they can blame the other party for not having a soft start. Had you asked me nicer, had you given me a chance, you didn't trust me to do it, so you just did it yourself.

00:15:32:10 - 00:15:58:18
Laura Danger
You did this to yourself. It's. It creates a million excuses which it's baked into. How that set up is you tell me what to do, which it isn't always weaponized. Incompetence, but it looks a lot like it, especially with the emotional labor. And it can very easily, very easily slide into strategic failing. Yeah, sabotaging, blaming, being defensive. Again, criticism and contempt.

00:15:58:22 - 00:16:06:03
Laura Danger
Stonewalling is like silent treatment ish name calling. You are a nag it's a real great set up for that.

00:16:06:05 - 00:16:30:03
Lisa Sonni
I totally agree, I have you listen, if you need a list though, I just I don't respect you. If you live in this house, I just can't. I am I'm so at a place in my life where I just actively am so aware that I could never respect another adult human being. My children know my daughter, who is seven years old, came home from school yesterday and she wanted to take the garbage from her lunchbox and put it in the garbage.

00:16:30:07 - 00:16:48:00
Lisa Sonni
She went over. She saw there was no bag. She put her lunchbox down, went over to the sink underneath, got a garbage bag 7 p.m.. Are you? It's. Anyone can do this. You don't need to be a girl. My son would do it too. He's done it many times. You just need to be a person with two eyeballs and care.

00:16:48:04 - 00:16:57:15
Lisa Sonni
So it's. I really believe that so much of this comes from, like, it's not their job. So much of this is masked in they think it's beneath them to actually do these things.

00:16:57:17 - 00:17:27:18
Laura Danger
Definitely. It's that lack of, feeling responsible for it, lack of valuing it, something that is really interesting. So there's, there have been studies done about the division of labor. And one of them that has been done, I think, is through the Fair Play Institute was or in partnership with them, found that of all of the household tasks, the the one that men did the most like from start to finish, from monitoring it to actually happening was. The. Trash.

00:17:27:20 - 00:17:56:11
Laura Danger
And but if you have ever talked to anybody who would say that there's something that I think gets skipped. And actually, Amani Waterfield, formerly Amani Payne and she's fantastic. She's online. She talked about this very publicly and was like, okay, let's say my partner did the trash. Did they ever order all of the trash bags? when the trash bin was damaged out by the alley, did they order a new one?

00:17:56:13 - 00:18:15:09
Laura Danger
How often did they bleach it out? did they plan for a Saturday where they were going to bleach everything, scrub all the handles, and make sure there was enough time for it to dry so that it was put away by the evening? How much are they really doing when you say that they handle it? I think that's such a a an important thing to notice.

00:18:15:12 - 00:18:26:08
Laura Danger
Yes. noticing that the trash bag is not there and then not leaving the trash on the counter and no trash bag in there. And there's so much more to it.

00:18:26:09 - 00:18:47:01
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. But I actually love her take because first of all, I mean, my God, trash might be one of the most cliche examples even. Yes. Right. Like, how many times do I have to ask you to take out the trash? It's so maddening. And then that's the thing that they get the credit for doing the most often. Let's say that's true, because if there was a study done, especially if the Fair Play Institute conducted it, I'm saying it's true.

00:18:47:04 - 00:19:07:21
Lisa Sonni
But her point is like, okay, you're talking about the daily responsibility of trash, but what about the bigger picture? And honestly, ordering trash bags that kind of goes to mental load, which is not totally the topic here, but it's part of it. Like I did the dishes. Yeah, but you finished the dish soap, and then the next time I went to do the dishes myself, there's no friggin soap. Like it.

00:19:07:21 - 00:19:36:00
Lisa Sonni
It just all of this, right? The women are perfectionists. They're not communicating it. Just ask. Just make me a list. You're such a nag. All of this is such a mass deflection. It's maddening. But these men will say it's your fault, or I just don't know how. Like I really don't know how. And I always use this example because it's my own personal example of the first time that my abusive ex ever used this on me, though I didn't recognize it at the time because I was.

00:19:36:02 - 00:19:54:23
Lisa Sonni
I was 27 back then. I was wide eyed and, you know, hopeful. But we were going somewhere and we'd only been dating for like three months, but we were going somewhere and he needed to wear a dress shirt. So he pulled out his iron in his apartment and put his shirt down and then ironed it and left a very clear like burn mark.

00:19:55:03 - 00:20:12:05
Lisa Sonni
And I have to admit, in hindsight, I was like, how could anyone burn it in that manner? It wasn't slightly burned. It was like a dark brown, like you just left it on. And I remember laughing in it, like, what is wrong with him? But in hindsight, I very much recognize that I might as well have been like, haha, boys will be boys!

00:20:12:08 - 00:20:31:15
Lisa Sonni
And then I just ironed his shirt for a new shirt for him, and I was like, oh my God, I'll do it, goodness me! And I took over and I was like, that was the beginning of the rest of that decade long relationship of me being like, you don't get it. And then I do it. He straight up admitted, eight years in and we were split within two years after that.

00:20:31:15 - 00:20:50:07
Lisa Sonni
But he said out loud, I burned it on purpose. I hate ironing and I was like, oh my. He like literally sacrificed a shirt just to do that. Openly admitted it was on purpose and at the time it didn't shock me when he admitted it. I was like that. That tracks, but not all of them admit it. But that's on purpose.

00:20:50:12 - 00:21:06:05
Lisa Sonni
I mean, you can see steam and smoke coming out of a shirt when you're ironing it like, you know, and again, I it was very dark brown. It wasn't like a mild burn. I should have known it was on purpose. But this is the kind of thing. how do you think women can tell that he's faking it? Like using whatever example.

00:21:06:05 - 00:21:11:18
Lisa Sonni
But how? How can you tell it's weaponized incompetence versus I don't understand what is it. That's a

00:21:11:20 - 00:21:33:18
Laura Danger
well, it's interesting. I think that it really plays on our desire to be like, if someone is telling you they love you, they wouldn't do that. Like they would communicate about it. And so I think like any abusive or harmful behavior, it's like, don't blame yourself, you know, for not noticing because it doesn't make sense. What they were doing doesn't make sense.

00:21:33:20 - 00:21:56:11
Laura Danger
But I think, I mean, like anything, it becomes a pattern. And I think is a really interesting that you mentioned that specific example. So had you two gone out and he didn't have the appropriate outfit, or if you had to like, panic last minute and find something, there would have been some sort of consequence had you not jumped in to fix it. Either

00:21:56:11 - 00:22:20:21
Laura Danger
he would have had to scramble. You guys might have been late. You would have looked rude. Whatever it is, or it's a hygiene and appearance and present ability problem. If it doesn't get fixed, which doesn't reflect on him, it reflects on you. So a lot of times this weaponizing competence stuff is a it's a domestic issue. And the responsibility regardless is going to fall on you.

00:22:21:01 - 00:22:42:23
Laura Danger
It's going to you're going to be blamed for it. Even if, if he burns the meal, if he doesn't clean up around the house, if the trash is overflowing and you have friends over and it smells terrible, the consequence is not losing social, credit to him. No. it's going to be you And that's where I believe you can start to spot the inconsistencies.

00:22:43:04 - 00:23:11:13
Laura Danger
Like if there is a task with similar executive demands, you know, there's multiple steps to it. You have to anticipate and monitor. Like if the same skills they are able to use in a way that benefits them. So can they pay attention to and remember a client's interests. Do they remember that in a sales call that somebody got a daughter who's graduating, but somehow they cannot remember important dates for you.

00:23:11:13 - 00:23:13:22
Lisa Sonni
Their own daughter's birthday or something? Yeah.

00:23:14:02 - 00:23:22:18
Laura Danger
There. That's where you can start to see the I think it's the inconsistencies. That's that's where I would say you notice it.

00:23:22:22 - 00:23:53:02
Lisa Sonni
As you were saying, that I actually just had a really like a flashback of a very specific conversation. He I have, man, it's crazy to me how much this is just coming back at me. I remember a very specific conversation about me asking how you function at work. He was a department head in an operations. I don't want to get into detail about where where he worked, but like it was operational and he was a department head and a leader and a strong leader and very authoritative and like running the show

00:23:53:08 - 00:24:10:11
Lisa Sonni
and everybody needed to move quickly and do what he was saying. But I was like, how how do you organize that at work? I don't understand how you can see everything that needs to get done, organize it all in your mind, and then delegate all the things to everybody and get the timing right and everything comes together and it's seamless.

00:24:10:11 - 00:24:30:09
Lisa Sonni
And at the end of the day, everybody's like, oh, that was great. And yet you can't figure out the most basic things at home. You can't figure out like you are. He was the give me a list guy. Although I will tell you, and I shouldn't tell you because you know this. The ask for a list man is the exact same man who gets mad at you for nagging him.

00:24:30:11 - 00:24:47:03
Lisa Sonni
But like, you asked for the list and then you've made me. Now make you a list. And now I've given it to you. I've delegated it. Which automatically makes me the manager of the list. But you resent me asking you if you've completed the list that you've asked me to delegate you, even though you put me in that role.

00:24:47:06 - 00:25:03:00
Lisa Sonni
Like the paradox of that is very frustrating because it's I really, in my experience, both personally and professionally, talking to people, I don't see the make me a list guy is the guy that goes, oh great, that done Mark. He's not that. Yeah, he's the guy that will get mad at you.

00:25:03:05 - 00:25:28:12
Laura Danger
Yeah. And that's I think it just keeps coming back. That situation of if you don't like the setup, like if this setup is frustrating to you because it's clearly frustrating to me, then please, let's work together to solve the problem. And that's where the a collaborative approach to a household, it's that's what we should be doing. That's the opposite of that.

00:25:28:12 - 00:25:54:12
Laura Danger
That is how we can climb our way out. The only setup is not the nag paradox is not the make me a list. It is a collaborative approach or clearly defined roles like I'm sure we've all been a part of an organization, or a group project, or a friendship, or a family system that can accomplish things with everyone's opinions, skills, everything considered. We know that we have examples of that.

00:25:54:18 - 00:26:18:13
Laura Danger
And when you think about a work environment and one party is doing all of the stuff and checking in, and we know that that feels bad. So there are solutions. And if you are not proposing them and you are not taking them when they're suggested and you're defensive about it, blaming, requiring other people to accommodate you without acknowledgment. Yeah, that would be weaponized incompetence.

00:26:18:15 - 00:26:40:02
Lisa Sonni
and to me, that's on purpose. I want to just reiterate that I don't weaponized incompetence can only happen after you've had some kind of conversation. I know for me, it was like he was meant to be responsible for outdoor work, and there wasn't a lot going on outside. We didn't have a big property. But like you do outside things, trash and dishes and nothing else like everything else was me.

00:26:40:02 - 00:27:00:18
Lisa Sonni
So you want to talk division of labor? It was like 9010. And for any, any man brave enough to be listening to this, I was also the breadwinner. So nobody talked to me about money either. Okay, so I hate that idea of like, well, you're staying at home. Where are these women that are staying at home? Most women work outside the home for money, and the ones that don't work outside the home for money, work inside home for free.

00:27:00:21 - 00:27:23:19
Lisa Sonni
So we're all working at the point. But yes, couldn't even do the trash, couldn't even do the dishes. So like and I would say, can you do the trash, can you bubble? And I remember one of his big excuses was like, I wasn't even home. What do you mean do the dishes? They're not my dishes. And I would be like, well, I don't wear your underwear, and yet you expect me to wash them, dry them, fold them and put them away. Like, this is a team effort here.

00:27:23:19 - 00:27:28:01
Lisa Sonni
It can't just be. You only do the dishes when you're home. Otherwise I'm only washing clothes I wear.

00:27:28:06 - 00:27:47:17
Laura Danger
How about that? Yeah, that's the other thing that really kills me. I feel like there was there was something that went really viral recently, and it was some it was a man explaining, like, what's in it for man? Like, what's in it for men to get married? Something like that. And was like, she was, she wants this, this and this.

00:27:47:17 - 00:28:17:16
Laura Danger
And I think she he was talking about his own partner. She wants this, this and this. And like, I guess I will give up my life and do this for her and I. In fact, I make this case in my book where if you don't want that, sir, don't sign up for it. It's I think that the, the thing that is really disorienting about weaponized incompetence in a lot of like, unhappy cis-het partnerships is that neither party wants what's going on.

00:28:17:21 - 00:28:47:23
Laura Danger
But there is a lot of times men are saying like, I'm doing you a favor, which don't do me any favors, please. I want someone who wants me. And I think that this the whole idea that it's okay to be miserable, it's normal to settle or do your partner a favor by giving up your life like that. If we could just get rid of that as a norm, I would rather be in a beautiful, loving partnership with, a bunch of platonic friends like I would.

00:28:47:23 - 00:28:58:13
Laura Danger
I would so much rather have people around me who love me in a unique way than be in a terrible, miserable marriage with someone who is thinks are doing me a favor.

00:28:58:17 - 00:29:22:20
Lisa Sonni
I think that men, though they have this sort of like framework of it's normal to be unhappy. And I find it so perplexing that they claim to be unhappy given all the benefits. It's like the benefits aren't enough. I also need you to never complain, completely comply, have sex with me as often as I want, and do everything and shut up about it. In addition to all the other benefits that they already get.

00:29:22:23 - 00:29:44:05
Lisa Sonni
But it's mind blowing how much they're like, I'm unhappy and that's normal. So I guess I'll marry her. The like ball and chain thing. You know, I used to be in a event planner in my past life. I was in events for 17 years, weddings and corporate. But the weddings part, I cannot tell you how many times brides will send me their photos as an engagement photos or their wedding photos.

00:29:44:08 - 00:30:10:22
Lisa Sonni
Think I was venue based so they would send them to me to see if I had any good shots of the venue. But I see all the photos and I see these like ball and chain type photos where she's, you know, won from being and he looks miserable and she's playing right into it. It's disgusting. Like, I would never, I could never I don't understand the joke of like, you're he's stuck with you. And that all the nagging wife and I'll go to check with the words, I hate all those jokes.

00:30:10:22 - 00:30:29:16
Lisa Sonni
If you don't want to be here, the door's right there. Because it's actually. Look at all the women these days filing for divorce, not getting remarried, choosing not to date, and the men that are choosing not to date. Number one, it's a lower number of men choosing not to date. And they're not dating because they don't want to change, which the women are like, okay, cool, good.

00:30:29:16 - 00:30:41:08
Lisa Sonni
Thank you. And men are thinking that they're like holding out on us and that one day it's going to make us change. And I just laugh because I don't think I think it's just the birth rate is dropping for a reason. That's what I think.

00:30:41:13 - 00:31:06:05
Laura Danger
Yeah, yeah. And it's it's so multi-tiered. It's there is this expectation like that you will accept and resign yourself to it and just settle in to something that's not going well. Yeah. And I think that's the other part of it. And you sort of point this out in the, in the beginning. There is this like work is miserable there.

00:31:06:09 - 00:31:42:06
Laura Danger
We are not getting paid enough. Housing prices are through the roof here in the US. We have no access to childcare or, parental leave or health care. Like it's really a miserable situation and the working conditions are bad and keep getting worse. And so a lot of times I men who have been told for ever that their entire lives and value come from wage earning or how much power and, you know, social credit, they can get as an employee

00:31:42:08 - 00:32:22:19
Laura Danger
or maybe one day the boss, like their work is so tied to their worth and it's not going well. And there is this identity crisis and this like, internal crisis of, oh no, I'm not safe. even if I comply with everything, I'm not safe. I just want to go home and I just want to ultimately, what's going on said, is have a little bit of power and benefit, a little bit from some labor that because my boss is benefiting from my labor and it really is a lot, oh, regardless of your gender, were being exploited and kind of grasping at straws for how to feel a sense of safety

00:32:22:23 - 00:32:41:06
Laura Danger
and unfortunately, a lot of people are doing it in the way that is not loving or connected or caring. They're just being like You do the work for me. I want to kick my feet up, I want you, you just figure it out. You be my piece. When really we should all be raising a ruckus. We should all be like, screw you.

00:32:41:06 - 00:33:03:03
Laura Danger
I'm not giving you any more of my overtime. I am going to be a part of what happens in my household. Instead of working harder to possibly earn more so that I can afford the groceries, I'm going to also learn with my wife how to cook at home and coupon cut and be happy with what I have and not overconsume.

00:33:03:07 - 00:33:10:09
Laura Danger
It's like really like if you zoom out, a lot more is going on and I think we should all be blowing up the whole thing.

00:33:10:11 - 00:33:31:18
Lisa Sonni
I completely agree with you. You know, I think of years ago as I am online, I was talking about narcissism and then it sort of expanded into abuse, not just that type. And, you know, you learn all kinds of things and then it became from abuse education and explaining concepts to people to like, you know, there's systems in place that are making it be this way.

00:33:31:18 - 00:33:55:04
Lisa Sonni
Right? You start thinking about patriarchy and capitalism and all kinds of things. And it's quite different when you start opening it up to like, why is this happening? And what are the solutions, not just how bad is it? I think one of the biggest sort of, paradoxes of a patriarchal kind of viewpoint is women are better at domestic labor, or that we're built for it, or biologically, whatever garbage these men are throwing.

00:33:55:06 - 00:34:15:02
Lisa Sonni
But there's no studies that show that, right, that women are better at it, but we are expected to do it. But I think the interesting piece in this is that when we do develop the expertise through repetition, we've always been responsible for, let's just use laundry, you know? Okay. So why is that expertise not respected? When you say, can you please use fabric softener with the towels.

00:34:15:02 - 00:34:33:09
Lisa Sonni
Yeah I don't get it. Like I don't understand why it's it's so you're just better at it. But also don't tell me how to do it because I'm a grown man. But you don't. You just said you don't know how. And not to mention you're doing it wrong or poorly, and then you're making me do it. And that that flip is so perplexing.

00:34:33:09 - 00:34:45:05
Lisa Sonni
I think there's so many parts. I mean, we could take this in a million directions, but it's just the most maddening thing that it always gets reframed onto her problem or the way she communicated or high standards or something like it.

00:34:45:05 - 00:34:46:23
Laura Danger
Just there's always something.

00:34:46:23 - 00:35:18:16
Lisa Sonni
Yes. It benefits them. Like the men are benefiting from this, this game of weaponized incompetence. And I think we are doing what we can right to dismantle this, including walking away from relationships. Certainly, but. 100%. What do you think? Like on the rare chance that people are with someone who doesn't get it, we can explain and teach. And I think, you know, you were kind of talking earlier, like if you express how something could be done better and somebody is willing to receive feedback, I think that's a good sign.

00:35:18:18 - 00:35:29:21
Lisa Sonni
You see any change in people who like it really is weaponized incompetence. Do you ever see comments from or talk to people. And it's like you can kind of tell that's not going to work. He doesn't he doesn't want to change.

00:35:30:02 - 00:35:50:13
Laura Danger
Yeah. It's so it's really interesting. with the set up of just tell me, just give me a list and I'll do it. With that being sort of the default setup for a relationship. I have seen a lot of people get better, get changed to a more collaborative approach. I've seen that plenty and plenty and plenty of times. That doesn't mean there isn't resistance.

00:35:50:13 - 00:36:13:03
Laura Danger
That doesn't mean there isn't defensiveness and resentment and all sorts of like needing to deal with your emotional reaction to that. There's all of that. It's complicated, but I have seen that done so many times. I've also, on a couple of occasions, heard from people in many different kinds of relationships. Regardless of gender, regardless of whether it's romantic or not.

00:36:13:06 - 00:36:39:23
Laura Danger
They have DM'd me or emailed me even and said, hey, I didn't realize what I was doing and I didn't realize the impact of it until I saw you pointed out and one person had a conversation with me and said, I've sort of dodged some responsibilities at home. Like I've just like kind of half assed it or like I haven't done a great job because I hoped that my spouse would do it or pretended not to see something because I wanted them to do it.

00:36:40:03 - 00:37:01:06
Laura Danger
And they said, not only did I like, I didn't think it was a big deal. I just didn't think like it was. It had a huge cost to them, and I assumed maybe they did the same thing sometimes. And also I saw my dad do it and like it, and then he was like, but I'm recognizing like it. I should be communicating that this and I shouldn't be defensive about it.

00:37:01:11 - 00:37:22:12
Laura Danger
And I was like, that is awesome. That is to and that's I think the whole point is that's a good faith effort to reflect and grow, because all of us, I mean, I gosh, how many toxic behaviors in communication have I had that I might be defensive about? But when somebody points that out to me, I have to ask, like, do I care about the impact?

00:37:22:14 - 00:37:44:05
Laura Danger
Do I care about this relationship? If so, I have to try to unlearn this behavior because it's not acceptable if it's hurting someone. Yeah. But so yeah, but with any abusive behavior, you can't convince somebody you can't talk somebody into or like somehow make yourself appear worthy in their eyes of change. That's not it's them. It's a them problem.

00:37:44:09 - 00:37:46:03
Laura Danger
And they have to do it.

00:37:46:03 - 00:38:04:04
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. To me, like abuse is a choice and weaponized incompetence is a choice. I do agree that it can be an unconscious choice like this. And then it might. You sort of bring it to the surface, which I think is part of why we need to be talking about this so that women can go, hey, this has a name, and this is what it feels like to me.

00:38:04:09 - 00:38:31:09
Lisa Sonni
Can we talk? But I'm telling you, for the women that are listening, you talk to them like one, maybe two times. If the response is resistance, deflection, minimizing, blaming, calling you names, getting angry like we're discussing that is just absolutely a crystal clear sign that they don't want to change and that they're not going to change, that they're benefiting from it, especially if you see it across multiple things, you know, like if if they do all kinds of things in the house except the dishes.

00:38:31:15 - 00:38:57:01
Lisa Sonni
Okay. But this you don't see that usually weaponized incompetence is like women are doing it all. And the, victims and survivors of abuse that I talked to are like, I do everything child raising dishes, everything inside, many outside as well. Women are dragging trash bins out to the corner as men are like we take out the trash is if that's incredible when A they're not and b that's very small. That's not even that's such a small task.

00:38:57:01 - 00:39:16:15
Lisa Sonni
I'd rather do that than half the things inside the house. Yeah, we all hear and that's that's the point. I'm so grateful now to be with someone who doesn't need lists and just notices things and just does things like, I literally I remember on a Wednesday night once I saw I'm vacuuming and I'm like, what the. And it was just, yeah, we needed to vacuum.

00:39:16:17 - 00:39:35:16
Lisa Sonni
I just there's no question, you know. No, not even like a hint of like, we really need to vacuum. Hint, hint. No. Just do it. And I just, I don't I don't want to give, you know, gold stars and balloons for the basic bare minimum. I'm just saying this more as it is possible. Not all men, right? Not all men

00:39:35:16 - 00:39:53:07
Laura Danger
do. It really? Is it? It's. That's the basic of caring for someone. Like taking care of a space and I saw this great. It was like a thread the other day where it was like, oh, protector, why don't you protect your family against germs by wiping down the counter? It's just I love it. It's a great framework.

00:39:53:11 - 00:40:13:15
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, that so is right. You're such a protector. Well, why don't you. Yeah. Oh, my God, I love that. I want women to know that a grown man that can't do dishes or laundry or basic things, or manage a simple household task, or asks you for a list, he is choosing incompetence because it works. Weaponizing competence really isn't about chores, right?

00:40:13:15 - 00:40:31:23
Lisa Sonni
It's about who gets to opt out of responsibility and who pays for that choice. So I really I hope this has been helpful. I hope women feel seen in in hearing this episode, and I hope that everybody goes to follow you @ThatDarnChat and gets your book No More Mediocre because it's phenomenal. People are really going to.

00:40:32:00 - 00:40:46:17
Laura Danger
Thank you so much. I hope that people get it and get it for their friends and have the book club, which I should point out at Lauradanger.com. I have a free downloadable discussion guide if you do decide to have a book club. It's very book club

00:40:46:17 - 00:40:53:09
Lisa Sonni
able. I love that I've been thinking about starting a book club actually. So, you know, it's interesting is that would be a very good topic for all.

00:40:53:09 - 00:40:54:10
Laura Danger
There you go.

00:40:54:11 - 00:40:57:10
Lisa Sonni
Oh, perfect. Thank you so much for being here. I'm appreciate it.

00:40:57:12 - 00:40:59:09
Laura Danger
Thank you for having me.

00:40:59:11 - 00:41:08:21
Lisa Sonni
If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:41:08:23 - 00:41:13:01
Music
Stronger than before.