How The Manosphere Is Teaching Men to Abuse with Rafael Gomez | S3EP9

The Manosphere isn’t “just podcasts.” It’s a curriculum teaching men how to destabilize, dominate, and call it leadership.

If you’ve ever sat across from a man who suddenly started talking about “alpha” energy, final decision-making power, or how you “owe” him sex… you’re not imagining the shift. 

Something changed…and it likely wasn’t you.

In this conversation, Lisa sits down with Rafael Gomez, host of Women on Men, to expose how red pill ideology repackages abuse as masculinity. They unpack negging, withdrawal as control, sexual entitlement, and the quiet conditioning that teaches men to see relationships as power struggles instead of partnerships. Rafael shares what he’s seeing firsthand: men being fed insecurity, calling it strength, and sabotaging their own relationships in the process.

Together, Lisa and Rafael are naming the systems hurting everyone — including the men trapped inside them.

Real masculinity is integrity, emotional maturity, and the courage to build something equal.
When we tell the truth about what’s happening, we stop internalizing it.

And that’s where your power comes back.

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:08:17
Music


00:00:09:00 - 00:00:34:09
Lisa Sonni
This is real talk with Lisa Sonni Relationships Uncensored: the podcast they don't want you listening to. The Manosphere is really not harmless, right? It's not just a bunch of men with microphones talking. They're talking about dating. They're talking about relationships. But they're actually teaching men actively how to harm women. I hear constantly from women they don't understand, like one of these guys. I'll go to the same university.

00:00:34:09 - 00:00:55:12
Lisa Sonni
How do they all know these tactics? And the truth is, the Manosphere has given permission. It's not that it created abusive men, but I think that it's maybe made it a little bit more acceptable. Right. We're repackaging abuse and we're calling it something else. I think a lot of these men very proudly call themselves Red pill and, and understand that they're sort of in the manosphere,

00:00:55:12 - 00:01:15:08
Lisa Sonni
but I think there are plenty that wouldn't identify with that language but that are still following content like this and still, in my opinion, red pilled. And so I want to introduce my guest, Rafael Gomez. And I want you to actually tell us a little bit about you. I've seen you all over Instagram, but tell us about you and your content and what your mission is.

00:01:15:09 - 00:01:15:15
Lisa Sonni
Sure.

00:01:15:15 - 00:01:38:07
Rafael Gomez
Thanks, Lisa. My name is Rafael Gomez. I'm the host of Women on Men, which is a podcast where I interview women about dating and get their perspective on dating men specifically. I started that channel because I was also coming across red pill content and seeing what these creators were doing, and often they were interviewing women and they were berating them or, you know, basically shaming them for their preferences and shaming them for how women are in their mind.

00:01:38:08 - 00:02:02:15
Rafael Gomez
And to say things like, you can either understand women or respect them, but not both. And those are the kinds of things that come out of their mouth. And so when I was seeing that, and I saw the men who were in the comments basically championing their message, I decided to do counter content. So I decided I was also going to interview women, but I was going to just let them speak about their experiences. And, also add my color from a man who's dated a lot and has a successful marriage.

00:02:02:18 - 00:02:12:03
Rafael Gomez
And I said, I think I have a unique perspective to to speak on these topics. And so I wanted to get involved and try to intercept as many guys from getting into Red pill and pull as many of them out as I can.

00:02:12:04 - 00:02:42:15
Lisa Sonni
Oh, I think it's so necessary. I have clients that are like, oh my God, my husband's been red pilled, or he talks like Joe Rogan or, you know, he listens to fresh and fat or he and I'm like, right. This is this is brutal. How normalized this is all becoming. I want to walk through some tactics that undoubtedly, you see being taught. And I'm watching women experience these things in their relationships, not just in dating, right, but in their actual long term relationships and wondering if they're crazy.

00:02:42:15 - 00:03:02:13
Lisa Sonni
Right? These women are just absolutely wondering, like, why? Why does this bother me? Some of the things are really subtle, and I'm going to absolutely start with one of the ones that just irks me to my core, which is negging. That one just drives me bananas. This is like calibrated criticism, but they don't quite see it. What do you see being taught?

00:03:02:13 - 00:03:05:18
Lisa Sonni
Are they using that word or are they just describing the framework? What do you see?

00:03:05:19 - 00:03:23:22
Rafael Gomez
Yeah. Negging actually is, quite an old term. And the red pill. So the red pill started with Robert Thomass book The Rational Male, which is like 20 years ago. But then there was an off branch called Pick Up artist, which I'm sure you're familiar with, pick up artists in some degree. They used to be a show on VH1. Negging is part of the tactics that pickup artists use.

00:03:23:23 - 00:03:43:09
Rafael Gomez
Basically, the idea here is you want to put the woman in a place of defense and place. You want to try to have a little bit of more power over her to also lower her, her security so she feels a bit more insecure. And the idea here is that that is going to allow her to kind of chase you a little bit and give you a little bit more leverage in the pursuit.

00:03:43:13 - 00:04:04:04
Rafael Gomez
I think, you know, some guys have had success with it, which is the unfortunate part. And I think that's the reason why it's persisted. I think it's a horrible manipulation tactic. Personally. I think, you know, I'm more of a direct person, but I think when you're targeting people who might have some insecurities, that kind of, tactic can have an effect, which is why I think they promote it. So much.

00:04:04:09 - 00:04:25:15
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, it is really effective, you know, and I mean, I hear the term negging and I immediately think to dating, but I again, I see it in marriages, I see it right in these relationships. Like he wants you to have less confidence and, you know, like the constant sort of correction or like, I love that you feel comfortable wearing that dress despite your weight.

00:04:25:21 - 00:04:26:12
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. For me.

00:04:26:14 - 00:04:52:00
Rafael Gomez
Yeah. These guys like to basically treat relationships like a power struggle. they want you to always try to fight for the upper hand. Because if you give the woman too much power, you know, you're not really a man or, she's going to make all the decisions. And so they really try to enforce the sort of dominance, the sort of, you know, the man needs to be the one making most of decisions, and you don't ever want her to feel secure, because if she feels secure, she's not going to respect you.

00:04:52:04 - 00:05:11:13
Rafael Gomez
And so you have to keep her on her toes. Is basically the thing, the thinking here. And like a man who has many options, is more desirable than a man who has none. And so they encourage men to constantly put their woman, on edge and make her not feel comfortable because they think if she's too comfortable, then she's not going to respect you, and she might even leave you.

00:05:11:14 - 00:05:31:06
Lisa Sonni
Which is so counterintuitive to what I would think as a woman. Like, I guess I'm like, if I was, you know, women on men, I would like what? That sounds terrible. I think if I know the version of me that exists now, that washed up, bitter old, over 40 year old version of me, I'm being so sarcastic. I would never fall for that.

00:05:31:06 - 00:05:46:06
Lisa Sonni
But I definitely know that in my 20s I probably would have felt and maybe even did. I don't know if I have a specific memory of it, but would have felt like, why did he say that? And then try to like, prove something? And I see that right. Especially if you're married to the guy. Right? And we're not dating.

00:05:46:10 - 00:06:04:08
Lisa Sonni
You want to like, prove to your spouse that you are not what he thinks you are when he positions you as not quite right or just a little too heavy, or it's a compliment, but it's not a compliment it's so destabilizing That's, that's that's the trick with Negging to me, is that it doesn't sound like an insult. All the time.

00:06:04:08 - 00:06:20:03
Rafael Gomez
Right? Yeah, it can be. It can come off as teasing and come off as somewhat playful. But the idea here is to play on the insecurities and to keep picking at that scab as much as you can, because I think if you do that, then again, you feel like you have more power that she feels like she needs to prove.

00:06:20:03 - 00:06:37:01
Rafael Gomez
Like you said, prove something to you or she feels like she needs to, earn your love in some way. And I think this does work with the more insecure somebody is. Especially, you know, your partner, the more insecure they are, the more it'll work. And that that really does come. I think with youth, as you said, I think when you're young you don't know any better.

00:06:37:01 - 00:06:52:18
Rafael Gomez
You're just trying to find your way in the world of the guy you like, and he's treating you like this and you're like, well, I want him to like me. So I'm going to, you know, try to earn his, his adoration. But I do think as women mature, they realize that those things are toxic. They realize what they actually want out of a relationship.

00:06:52:18 - 00:07:08:12
Rafael Gomez
And I think that's something that these red pill manosphere guys get frustrated with. That's why they always encourage these guys to date younger. They don't they don't ever want them to date anyone in their late 20s or early 30s, and later, because they want they try to make it sound like they're past the wall, which that's a whole other discussion.

00:07:08:17 - 00:07:27:10
Rafael Gomez
But really, They want these men to date these younger women. They try to make it claim is some biological thing. But at the end of the day, I think these guys are trying to find women who don't know any better and play off insecurities. And, you know, when a woman matures and becomes a woman, she's going to be those kinds of games won't work anymore. Which is why I think they constantly are looking for younger and younger.

00:07:27:10 - 00:07:41:21
Lisa Sonni
I forget who said it. It might have been. I think her name was Hope Peddler, but she kind of talked about this built in defense mechanism in the patriarchy that as soon as women kind of wake up, you're old and nobody should listen to you, right? Like, yeah, the minute you're like, wait a minute, this doesn't make sense. What are you, over 30?

00:07:41:21 - 00:07:45:03
Lisa Sonni
Who cares what you have to say? And if you're over 40, like, just go back

00:07:45:03 - 00:08:18:21
Rafael Gomez
where. Exactly I went and. Yeah, and they like to cope that these women are going to be alone and single. But the numbers don't really add up. They're, you know, women tend to be able to find relationships. They're able to at all ages. So, you know, I don't think it holds any water. But yeah, the idea here is that if a woman is, mature and has learned what she likes and doesn't like in a relationship, then what they claim is that she basically was “ran through” in her 20s, you know, had her fun or 20s. And then she settled with some beta guy in her later years because he, you know, puts up with

00:08:18:21 - 00:08:36:15
Rafael Gomez
her crap, you know, as, as they say. And it's like, no, it's just two people who are mature who decided what they want out of life, and they decided that this is the kind of family they want to make, or the kind of house they want to make. So, yeah, that's why they try to go for, you know, and women who are insecure, women who don't know any better, they often can be taken advantage of by guys like this, for sure.

00:08:36:15 - 00:08:55:11
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. It's why women need to be hearing these things right at any age. Like I would argue, even especially younger women. Yeah, I see this kind of like pitting younger women against older women. You know, you don't want to be like one of those old, washed up, bitter women, and you try so hard to not be like that woman that they're making fun of.

00:08:55:14 - 00:09:13:06
Lisa Sonni
you're you're going in the reverse. You're you're actually feeding right into the manosphere and the toxic masculinity of, like, getting your approval from a man. My take again, as an older woman, my take is like, for nothing has less value than the opinion of some red pill man. Why does it matter?

00:09:13:08 - 00:09:33:23
Rafael Gomez
No, I mean, these guys are they're pretty lost in their ideology. I think a lot of it comes from their own insecurity. It also comes from what's called masculine discrepancy stress, which is something I recently learned about, basically the red pill. And a lot of these manosphere, type of content creators are basically telling men, you're not a man if you're not doing this, if your woman doesn't listen to you, you're not a man.

00:09:33:23 - 00:09:53:01
Rafael Gomez
If she isn't submissive to you, you're not a man. If she talks back to you in any way or does anything has her own opinion, you're not a man. And so what happens is it's called masculine discrepancy stress. Where, men, don't they feel there's a gap between how they're supposed to be and how they actually are. And so that stress is created and it creates this insecurity in a man.

00:09:53:01 - 00:10:11:14
Rafael Gomez
And so they start to overcompensate by doing a lot of these things in their relationship. As you mentioned, these people who are maybe in a happy relationship and suddenly the man's kind of changed a little bit, and it's because he's hearing these messages that makes him feel like, oh, my marriage is a sham, or, I'm this beta male, my marriage, and I must do something to get my woman in line.

00:10:11:14 - 00:10:26:20
Rafael Gomez
And so that's where the switch happens, where the guy tries to exert some sort of control and completely changes how he even sees the world, because he doesn't want to be viewed as less than. He doesn't want to be viewed as a beta male. And so he's constantly trying to prove himself by basically trying to get power over his partner.

00:10:26:22 - 00:10:35:23
Lisa Sonni
You think they ever think about the psychological impact? Is that too deep a question? You know what I mean? Like, do you ever think what's the effect on the woman long term? Or they just don't care?

00:10:36:05 - 00:10:53:04
Rafael Gomez
It's too deep because I think a lot of the things that the red pill manosphere content doesn't do is focus on mental health. it. They actually kind of make fun of mental health. They think, you know, you're a pansy if you go to therapy or like if you talk about your emotions in any way that that is like, that is the quickest way to become a feminine man.

00:10:53:07 - 00:11:06:20
Rafael Gomez
And so they discourage all of this stuff. So I don't think they're thinking about, you know, the effect of the woman. I think they're at the end of the day, they just want to feel as much of a man as possible. And then they're completely surprised when their partner doesn't want to be in the relationship anymore. And it's like, well, what's going on?

00:11:06:20 - 00:11:13:13
Rafael Gomez
Like, I feel like I'm doing everything I'm supposed to do. And it's like, because you were told what you're supposed to do instead of just doing what you were supposed to do.

00:11:13:14 - 00:11:30:01
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, well, it's actually one of the things I find so great about your content is men will say, you know, the six, six, six thing, right? Like they have to be this. And meanwhile, women are like, so we don't care about those things. And studies show that. And I see this and you must see this even more of men just being like, yeah, but women lie.

00:11:30:04 - 00:11:39:19
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. Why would women lie about what they themselves want to? What advantage would I be claiming that that makes no sense at all.

00:11:39:19 - 00:11:57:19
Rafael Gomez
Yeah, I I think they're using their own anecdotal experiences and using that as kind of the way they see the entire world, because I constantly am fighting these narratives with data. You know, up to 60% of men in their lifetime will be married. The majority of men are in relationships. You know, these guys aren't six foot. They're not, you know, making six figures.

00:11:57:19 - 00:12:16:20
Rafael Gomez
They're not six packs like the majority. Like they say, don't don't listen to what women say. Watch what they do. And I'm constantly saying, well, I do watch what they do and they marry normal guys like the normal average guys married. And if you actually get off the internet and go outside and look at people in public spaces, you will see the most normal people in marriages and relationships.

00:12:17:02 - 00:12:34:03
Rafael Gomez
But because they're so online, they don't they don't believe in. So they're only seeing these like really good looking guys having success with women, or they see the opposite, which is women who are very, you know, materialistic and superficial, who are saying things like, why all that's all I want. I only want the six foot guy in finance, you know, that kind of thing.

00:12:34:03 - 00:12:49:08
Rafael Gomez
And they hear this stuff even though most of the content we're seeing online created by about 10% of the total US population. So it's a very small percentage of people making content. But whenever it colors your entire worldview, that's how you start to see the world. And it's like, well, obviously these women want these good looking guys.

00:12:49:08 - 00:13:10:18
Rafael Gomez
And then the other cop to that is even if I give them the data and say, look, the majority of men can be in relationships. And here's the proof. They often say, well, that's not who the women actually want. The women don't actually want these guys. They're just settling for these guys, which I, you know, is something that to me almost sounds like projection in some ways, because it's like, you must really think six foot guys who are six, that

00:13:10:18 - 00:13:28:09
Rafael Gomez
you must think they're really attractive because women are picking these other guys, and you're saying that they don't want those guys, they want their college frat guy, that that's like they had this idea of this college Frat Chad, that all the married women are actually still lusting over instead of the partner that they actually, you know, settle down with. Yeah. And

00:13:28:09 - 00:13:58:22
Rafael Gomez
so they, they basically try to cope in that way by saying, well, these, those guys are just that, you know, there's a, there's a concept in red pill which is Alpha fucks beta bucks, which is basically like the alphas will have sex and the betas will pay for women to be in relationships with them. And that's their kind of worldview of like how women and when they're young and they're trying to figure out their world and try to figure out that they don't know what they want, and they're having sex, you know, for the first time, they're being, you know, adults with with, full agency, do what they want.

00:13:58:22 - 00:14:16:19
Rafael Gomez
And then they think that that is the way the woman wants to be. But then whenever she marries somebody later on in life, like the average age, I think women get married is around 30. When they when they start to get married, they're actually picking someone who's more of a beta, someone who's just going to pay their bills and someone who's going to, you know, raise the kids and, be cheated on.

00:14:16:19 - 00:14:38:09
Rafael Gomez
And she's constantly going to be lusting after this other guy. And it's pure fantasy. And I tell these guys this, you know, often these guys will say this stuff to me and I'll say, do you think your mom picked your dad because he was just some beta guy? And often they kind of like pull back and they're like, well, no, I think, you know, it's like, okay, so when you look at your own relationships, you know, the people in your life, it doesn't really fit

00:14:38:09 - 00:14:57:05
Rafael Gomez
they had this idea of this like lust for woman and this, you know, handsome Chad. And that's all what life is to them. And they don't really look at the people in their life, and they don't look at like their aunts and their their uncles, and the people that are in relationships are sisters. I've even had guys say like, you know, they're in a relationship.

00:14:57:05 - 00:15:15:12
Rafael Gomez
And I said, does your girlfriend see you as some kind of beta male? And he's like, oh, no, no, not at all. And it's like, okay, that's convenient that you're the exception and your mom is the exception and your parents are the exception. But every other woman in the world fits this model in your eyes. So a lot of it is just fantasy and and cope, unfortunately.

00:15:15:14 - 00:15:19:14
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. It sounds like they're right. They're so close to the point. But oh. Yeah.

00:15:19:14 - 00:15:34:17
Rafael Gomez
Not quite. They don't realize that like, you know, when you're young you make stupid decisions. Some of the stuff I was doing when I was 20, that's not the stuff I'm going to be doing as a 40 year old man. Because I've matured, I've realized what it is I want out of life. I think a lot of women and men realize what they value out of a relationship.

00:15:34:21 - 00:15:49:01
Rafael Gomez
Some women maybe, or some men when they're young. It's looks, it's money, it's whatever, and that's all you know. But then as you start to date these people, you realize, man, I don't like being around this person and I don't like talking to this person. I don't we don't align on values. I don't like the way they treat me.

00:15:49:01 - 00:16:10:04
Rafael Gomez
And I have respect for myself. I've learned how to respect myself, and now I'm there to pick a partner that I actually want to spend my time with. And they view that as less than than a woman who just desires you sexually constantly. And so they think that if a woman's not desiring you constantly, that she's settling like, and that it's like they only think in terms of sex.

00:16:10:04 - 00:16:17:23
Rafael Gomez
And I think because a lot of these guys are sexless, which is why I think they're constantly framing the world is just, you know, sex basically.

00:16:18:01 - 00:16:50:10
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. You're so right about the projection. You know, I deal with so many women who are married to or in long term relationships with men that sort of turn out like this. But I think what's so interesting, and I wish that these men could really understand, is that these women that I deal with absolutely love these men in the beginning, when these men are wooing them, and even if it's negging and even if they're playing all these manipulation games and we don't see it in the beginning because it seems nice, it's like when the switch happens and it's never just a clean switch.

00:16:50:15 - 00:17:10:17
Lisa Sonni
He goes from nice to bad, right? We know abusive relationships are like they're super nice and then something small, but it's explainable. And then back to nice and then it sort of you get conditioned once you're at that stage where it's just all bad. More often than not, women are attached to the cycle of all the chemicals going through their body.

00:17:10:17 - 00:17:31:12
Lisa Sonni
All the highs and lows, possibly trauma bonded to these men. But it's not love anymore. But you loved the first version. It's kind of proves we like the nicer, genuinely nicer, not nice fakeness. Sure. Nice man regardless. So these men that are like yeah, but she really want someone else will kind of. But just the guy that you pretended to be like you.

00:17:31:16 - 00:17:42:05
Lisa Sonni
You do know what? That it's proof to me that they know what they're doing because they know how to get you, but then they're not interested in maintaining that. Why? Like like why not just be this asshole from the beginning?

00:17:42:07 - 00:18:02:08
Rafael Gomez
Yeah, I don't know that all of them covered it up. I think some of them do change throughout the process. I do think there's probably some guys who know how to put the facade on and get what they want out of relationship, and then reveal their true self. That happens all the time. But I think when it comes to Red pill, especially a lot of these guys who are nice guys and I don't mean nice like, you know, we're saying like pushovers.

00:18:02:08 - 00:18:17:15
Rafael Gomez
Like I think the perfect balance here is a good man, which is someone who is kind because that's who he is and but is also someone that says boundaries and is not a pushover. And I think that's the balance that I think a lot of these men, if they can strike that, that I think is the sweet spot.

00:18:17:16 - 00:18:37:08
Rafael Gomez
But what a lot of these guys do is that they come in as a good man, but then they come across as content and they start to second guess themselves. Even though the relationship is good, even though the relationship is fine, there's a lack of there's an insecurity there that this this content plays on. There's a book called Men Who Hate Women, which is a great book.

00:18:37:12 - 00:18:38:09
Rafael Gomez
Have you you know about it?

00:18:38:13 - 00:18:43:14
Lisa Sonni
Was it? I don't mean to. Yeah. I love the book. I know my face look like I didn't, but I found it so hard to read.

00:18:43:15 - 00:18:44:22
Rafael Gomez
It is hard to

00:18:45:00 - 00:18:45:18
Lisa Sonni
read everyone. To read it. Yeah.

00:18:45:23 - 00:19:07:19
Rafael Gomez
It's hard. It's a hard read. And especially because I don't know how to fix it. But the the thing here is that a man who creates a YouTube channel within days is going to be fed red pill content, just because a lot of the men are looking at maybe workout videos or they're doing something that is kind of red pill adjacent, and the algorithm is going to start recommending red pill content pretty quickly.

00:19:07:19 - 00:19:27:06
Rafael Gomez
And a lot of this stuff can be compelling and entertaining, and maybe, you know, you don't take it seriously at first. You're just like, okay, this is just kind of like silly content. But the more you hear this stuff and the more it kind of seeps in. I think a lot of men who aren't secure in what they actually believe can start to change who they are, they can start to alter.

00:19:27:06 - 00:19:58:22
Rafael Gomez
I posted content about, like a string of divorces, even in Canada, where women are basically saying my man change due to red pill content, and it is becoming more and more of a of a storyline that we're seeing over and over again. And I think, again, it's because these men are seeing these guys who they often view as more masculine than them. And because they perceive these men as having some sort of better value, even though none of these men are in happy relationships, mind you, none of these men are, you know, in my opinion, good husbands and most of them are single.

00:19:58:22 - 00:20:16:23
Rafael Gomez
Most of them do not have long term relationships, but because these men have some sort of insecurity about their own manhood, they start listening to these guys because like, okay, these guys are actually going to tell me how I'm supposed to be a man and I'm going to apply that to my current relationship. And then that's whenever the woman starts realizing something's changed, something's clicked.

00:20:16:23 - 00:20:37:05
Rafael Gomez
You're no longer who I thought you were. And I interview lots of women who have gone through this, lots of women during my lives and told me this kind of stuff. So it is more and more of a common thing. And, you know, again, I do think it comes from an insecure place because I think if you're already happy in a relationship, why would you change something? So drastically?

00:20:37:05 - 00:20:56:06
Rafael Gomez
Either you're already unhappy, which I don't think these guys typically are. Or maybe they are, I don't know, but, either you're already unhappy or you're just that insecure that you feel like you have to do something to prove your manliness, which I tell the guys I talk to. The manliest thing you can do is not let another man tell you how to be a man. Like that's to me, the most manliest thing.

00:20:56:06 - 00:21:13:14
Rafael Gomez
It's like, I don't care No one can emasculate me. Like I can do whatever I choose, and I can be as masculine as I want to feel like. No, if I went out today and started doing ballet, no one's going to tell me I'm less of a man. But if you allow men to tell you you're less of a man for that, then you can be emasculated.

00:21:13:15 - 00:21:16:16
Rafael Gomez
And I think that is a choice you're allowing people to make for you.

00:21:16:16 - 00:21:32:14
Lisa Sonni
I love that take and I so agree with you. Emasculation. Like that's not no one can take it. If you are just a man, you don't. It. And I always find it odd to how much they seek the male validation. You know, you want to be in relationships with women and sex with women, and all you care about is what men think.

00:21:32:14 - 00:21:34:09
Lisa Sonni
It's exactly strange to me.

00:21:34:11 - 00:21:36:04
Rafael Gomez
It's it's bizarre. Yes.

00:21:36:04 - 00:22:01:02
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. Now, another tactic that I see, and I don't know how well this works. I guess it does work early in dating, but I see it again in these long term relationships. Withdrawal as control. Right. Like stonewalling, silence, ghosting. Again in relationships might be like ignoring you for three days, or you might live with the person and they're still being awful, but they are trying to maintain power, knowing that silence crushes you.

00:22:01:02 - 00:22:24:06
Lisa Sonni
That actually didn't work on me because silence was wonderful in my relationship. I lived for silence. It was the relentlessly coming at me that made me crazy. But I have so many clients that are like, oh my God, and it makes you chase him because he's withdrawn. So now you're seeking that connection you're trying to pull. And I think a lot of people go like, well, avoidant and, anxious attachment. And it's like, no, it's abuse.

00:22:24:06 - 00:22:25:17
Lisa Sonni
It's not just an attachment.

00:22:25:19 - 00:22:45:02
Rafael Gomez
Yeah. I think playing games and dating is something that has become more and more of a thing. I think ever since online dating, you know, really took off. There's, there's games to play and you know, again, in terms of what I consider a man, you know, take my, my opinion with a grain of salt. But I think going after what you want is the manliest thing you can do.

00:22:45:02 - 00:23:12:11
Rafael Gomez
Like going like saying, I like you. I would like to see you. When are you free or are you free this weekend or whatever and not playing games? It's I playing games that never work for my relationships. I've always been somebody who says it how I feel, and I believe in being polarizing. I believe in if I'm going to, you know, say something like, I like to be monogamous and that's going to put somebody off, then that person is not for me anyway, you know, like, so it's like, I'm not if they're not ready for a relationship and I am, then we're not compatible.

00:23:12:11 - 00:23:30:09
Rafael Gomez
And I'm always looking for that kind of polarization where it's like, I want this. Are you on the same page? And if they're not, then we know where we stand. But this idea of playing games and having someone chase you to me again, it feels a little bit like that insecurity, that masculine discrepancy, stress where you're like, well, the woman supposed to chase me.

00:23:30:11 - 00:23:53:17
Rafael Gomez
Why? Why do you feel that way? Why don't you go out and make the life that you actually want instead of trying to get someone to do something instead of you doing it yourself? I it's always lost on me. Maybe it works, but I also think, you know, today with ghosting and you know, people just like, flaking and it just, I mean, like, if to me, momentum is more important in modern dating than these other tactics,

00:23:53:17 - 00:24:14:03
Rafael Gomez
you know, if you lose a couple days or you lose if, if someone goes out of town for a week and you guys have just started dating more than likely when that person comes back, you guys aren't even going to see each other anymore. Like it just kind of falls off the map. And so I think the the best way to to maintain a relationship today is be consistent and go after what you're looking for and don't lose momentum.

00:24:14:03 - 00:24:22:09
Rafael Gomez
But I think a lot of people play these games because they feel like, again, they need to have some sort of power in their relationship. Which to me is is more insecure than anything.

00:24:22:12 - 00:24:48:09
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I do, you're so right. Like, in an abusive dynamic. What I mean, I say this ad nauseum, but it's power and control, right. And most people who are aware of abusive relationships, abusive people, although we are talking about abusive men here, are generally speaking, power and control and dominance. And the way that we do that is through all this patriarchal stuff and misogyny and all of these tactics that we're talking about. It creates a power imbalance.

00:24:48:09 - 00:25:08:18
Lisa Sonni
And that is so harmful to relationships. And I don't I hear a lot of women say that their husbands or boyfriends say that you know, I'm I'm the man. So I'm supposed to be a leader and I'm supposed to be in charge, and I'm supposed to make the decisions, and I'm supposed to. What is this like? You're supposed to treat your wife like crap.

00:25:08:22 - 00:25:28:00
Lisa Sonni
Because I think when you look back at this picture, which I don't necessarily think these people were happy, but that sort of 1950s picture that we all have of, like, she goes to work and she's the housewife. And was he actually making all the decisions? Because I would bet not like a lot of these men were always asking their wives opinions and doing things together.

00:25:28:00 - 00:25:37:12
Lisa Sonni
But suddenly it's become this, like, I need to have power and I need to openly control. And here's all the tactics I'm going to use to control you. Why would anyone want that?

00:25:37:16 - 00:25:55:08
Rafael Gomez
Yeah. I think when you look back at like the boomer generation, women didn't have as much agency as they do today. And so they were pretty economically dependent on their on their partner. And, you know, there wasn't no fault divorce. So you had to prove in court why you wanted to get divorced. And often it had to be infidelity or abuse.

00:25:55:08 - 00:26:13:01
Rafael Gomez
And if it wasn't any of those things and you were kind of stuck in the marriage and so you didn't really have women didn't have much of a choice. Now women have a ton of choice. Women make their own money. In fact, Gen Z women are outpacing Gen Z men in terms of earnings, homeownership, etc.. Education. And now women get to select partners based on more than need.

00:26:13:01 - 00:26:31:16
Rafael Gomez
They get to choose partners based on want. And I think a lot of men are not prepared for that in 2026. And so because women don't need them, men are trying to find a way to have the power over them so that women need them again. And that isn't going to work for independent women. Like just it just isn't going to work.

00:26:31:16 - 00:26:52:06
Rafael Gomez
And women now can say, I'm just not interested in this. I'm leaving or no fault divorce. You know, they can just get out of a marriage is bad. And so a lot of men are looking for ways to get power back. And a lot of these tactics are kind of what's being used. And I think what we're seeing and maybe, you know, your audience sees it differently, but I'm not seeing it be too successful these days.

00:26:52:06 - 00:27:08:19
Rafael Gomez
I feel like it just isn't working anymore. And the men who are having success today are the ones who understand that the more you develop your own character and the more of a better man you are, the more likelihood you're going to have a chance to get into relationship. That has nothing to do with how powerful you are.

00:27:08:19 - 00:27:25:06
Rafael Gomez
It has nothing to do with how much of a final decision maker you are. And there's a million ways to lead, you know, like when I was, leading teams in my last company. You know, I, I believe in servant leadership, which I think is one of the best ways to be a leader, which is I want to make sure that we as a team do what we need to do.

00:27:25:06 - 00:27:43:14
Rafael Gomez
And it's not me telling you what to do. It's basically, I trust that you know what to do. And if you need help, I'm here to help you and I'm here to, like, get it done. But to me, that's that to me is a better form of leadership than any other kind of leadership I've ever experienced. Instead of, like, a dictator or somebody who says, well, I get the final word, like, that's not going to go, that's not going to fly.

00:27:43:19 - 00:28:02:16
Rafael Gomez
And I also don't know what decisions people are making that are so final. Like, you know, like if you are going to buy a property with your partner, you're literally not going to take their opinion into consideration. You're just going to say, nope, we're signing the mortgage and that's it. I don't know what kind of decisions are being made where it's like, you can't discuss it with your partner and you guys can land on something.

00:28:02:16 - 00:28:17:09
Rafael Gomez
For example, my wife and I, we don't have like a final decision maker. We don't have like a veto vote. You know, I don't I don't. And but we're able to make it work. So I don't I don't know what this obsession is with. I have to be the one making the final decision. It's like, no, there's a decision we have to make.

00:28:17:09 - 00:28:20:03
Rafael Gomez
I have my input, she has her input and we come together on something.

00:28:20:06 - 00:28:35:19
Lisa Sonni
I so agree. I remember once saying that to my my fiancé. I was like, would you even want that? Because we're so partnered. We'd never had this conversation before. But I was like, would you even want that? And he's like, this feels like a lot of pressure. I have to make all the decisions. So if anything goes wrong, it's all on me.

00:28:35:19 - 00:28:52:00
Lisa Sonni
Like, why would I want that? And then it makes me go, which is probably another topic, but you put all this pressure on yourself and you put all of it. You do it basically willfully, and then you're like, oh my God, you have no idea how hard it is to be a man. Well, why don't you stop performing that version of what a man is?

00:28:52:03 - 00:28:58:19
Lisa Sonni
Because you are a man who can't be emasculated and you make joint decisions and so does mine, right? I just don't get it.

00:28:58:20 - 00:29:23:03
Rafael Gomez
Yeah, I don't get it either. I think I think there's, there is that performance that men still feel like they have to do partly one second. They, they feel like if they're not performing masculinity, then they're at risk of losing their masculinity. And, that there's a box. Men put them, put men in the box so you can't show emotion in the box of, you know, you got to be tough and you got to be ready to fight at a moment's notice and all that.

00:29:23:03 - 00:29:39:09
Rafael Gomez
And we're protectors and we're providers, and it's like, why do you default to these roles? Why do you say, this is how I must be? And if I'm not this like, it's just being told. And like you said earlier, I think how a lot of the red pill men seem to be coming from the same university or something like that, like the same place.

00:29:39:15 - 00:29:57:03
Rafael Gomez
They copy and paste the same language everywhere. When I'm debating people, I hear the exact same thing and I'm like, did you get that from this video? And they're like, maybe I'm like, yeah, I know you did, because you are copying and pasting what they all say the same exact thing. And I think it's because that's the template that they're trying to to, to fit in.

00:29:57:03 - 00:30:16:04
Rafael Gomez
And I think when you try to fit into a template, not only is it inauthentic, like that's not who you really are. And I think that comes across when you attempt to be that. And so, yeah, I think, you know, men have always said, well, you know, when I was young, it was even like, oh, you know, if you're even a little bit feminine, it's like, well, give me your man card.

00:30:16:04 - 00:30:35:16
Rafael Gomez
You know, it was like, you can't you're no longer invited to the men's club. You are out. And men tend to do that throughout high school, throughout college. You know, I think into adulthood you start to realize that, like, a lot of that stuff is immature. But some men never grew out of it, or some men never take the time to become fully confident in who they are and fully, authentic, you know,

00:30:35:16 - 00:30:53:02
Rafael Gomez
and I think what's worked for me is I have been authentic for, I don't know, I've been to therapy for a decade. And so I have become an authentic person. And that has worked for me more than anything else. Like I've told women straight up how I feel about them. I've told women what I'm looking for. In the beginning of a relationship.

00:30:53:02 - 00:31:11:08
Rafael Gomez
I told women I've been through a divorce, and none of that has ever come back to bite me. It's always been like, oh, this person is real. Like he's a real person. He knows who he is. He knows his flaws, he knows his strengths, and he just is who he is. And that has worked for me more than I must perform or I must act a certain way, even though I don't agree with it.

00:31:11:10 - 00:31:29:13
Rafael Gomez
I must be this thing, and I've never been somebody that wants to. I'm on the principle. Just be a thing. It's like I've always chosen what I want to do instead of just being defaulted to me. And I think a lot of these guys, they default. And even the idea of being a protector, a lot of men will take this pride in, like, I'm a protector,

00:31:29:13 - 00:31:53:01
Rafael Gomez
like, okay, have you ever protected your partner? No. What are you thinking? Right? And are you potentially, statistically, your her biggest threat? You know, like, statistically, if a woman gets hurt, it's often her partner. But statistically, most men, most adult males never get into a fist fight. Most adult males never have to defend their home from an intruder. It happens about 1% of the time where a man has to defend a home from intruders, so it's unlikely.

00:31:53:01 - 00:32:04:14
Rafael Gomez
But men still feel like they get to wear this badge of like, well, I'm a protectors like, but you've never had to. and you probably never will. So I don't think you get to claim credit for something that you might not ever have to do or will do.

00:32:04:14 - 00:32:18:16
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. And frankly, even if a man broke in and I would like to just drive wins attention to it's a man breaking in, but that aside, if a man breaks in and you have to protect your family like I'm many, men could also be incapacitated pretty quick if you're not expecting it.

00:32:18:16 - 00:32:36:14
Rafael Gomez
And of course I would, you know, jump in, you know that because but at the same time, like I told guys, like if I was married to an MMA fighter, I would hope she would help, you know, like, you know, I think protection doesn't have to be one. I think I think protection is like, I think my wife would jump in if I was in trouble, like, and and vice versa, like, I think that's what a partnership is.

00:32:36:20 - 00:32:55:09
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. Like I'm not going to be under the bed when he's being attacked, you know what I mean? Like that's crazy. It's so it's just wild all the, all of the ways that it's so justified to fight with a group of men. You've been talking a lot about insecurity. And I find it so interesting because I believe that there are plenty of abusive men that can be insecure,

00:32:55:09 - 00:33:17:03
Lisa Sonni
but I want people to really know because this is a fact and not my opinion that insecurity doesn't cause abusive ness. I know that there's a relationship and there's a lot of nuance, and we're not going to get into all of it. But deep down, yeah, they can feel small, sure. But I don't think that's the blanket statement of what what kind of explains all of this negging and withdrawal and all the things that they're doing.

00:33:17:08 - 00:33:39:14
Lisa Sonni
I think that a lot of them just honestly want power. And then the patriarchy conditions men to be so fucking entitled to everything. They're entitled to women entitled to money, entitled to all of these things. And when they don't get it, they feel wronged, like it's so justified to treat women this way. They believe that they're just dishing out what women deserve.

00:33:39:19 - 00:33:44:00
Lisa Sonni
So it's not even just like they're insecure. I'm I know. What you're

00:33:44:00 - 00:33:44:08
Rafael Gomez
saying.

00:33:44:13 - 00:34:02:00
Lisa Sonni
And B, it's just not the cause. Because if they were just insecure, you could learn to be more secure. You could go to therapy, you could learn something. I think that this has so much to do with the belief systems and what what that sort of core fear driving a lot of this manosphere crap is a loss of control.

00:34:02:00 - 00:34:03:10
Lisa Sonni
They want that so badly.

00:34:03:10 - 00:34:23:00
Rafael Gomez
Yeah. I think you're on to something for sure. I think a lot of the men who have changed mid relationship to me, that's normally insecurity. But I think guys who come into the real and that's just who they are then yeah, there's probably a likelihood that it's not insecurity. It's a need for power. And like you said men have always felt like the world was theirs and they're always going to get with women.

00:34:23:00 - 00:34:53:02
Rafael Gomez
And women were always going to be subservient, and that was always going to be the case. And obviously as a world change, a lot of these men still feel entitled to that. And as the world continues to move to more egalitarian, systems, I think these men are going to get more and more frustrated. And I think, you know, when I talk about the insecurity, I think because when I think of the most heinous, acts that have been done in the name of the manosphere, it's like things like Elliot Rodger who murdered people, UC Santa Barbara he murdered women, and he murdered men who were having success with women.

00:34:53:06 - 00:35:16:20
Rafael Gomez
And his manifesto was basically like, I feel like women ignore me. I'm invisible. And I hate that these, you know, chads get all these women. And so they had to go to and he spelled it out for everybody what it is that drove him to this. So I think there's on the extreme level, there's that. Then on the personal abuse level, there's definitely the guys who basically just feel like, hey, you know, this makes me feel powerful.

00:35:16:23 - 00:35:27:02
Rafael Gomez
And and then that power is what makes me feel like a man. And so I must pursue that at all costs, regardless of what, you know, the damage it does to my partner or to anybody I'm with.

00:35:27:07 - 00:35:53:03
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, they don't even care that it's damaging, which perfect segue into sexual entitlement. I think what you see it in the videos, you see all over the friggin manosphere and in these relationships where I'm working with these women who feel like they have no choice but to say yes, it's just positioned as like a rite of passage. These men feel so entitled to it, and then they behave that way, and women almost fall into that, too, I think.

00:35:53:03 - 00:36:02:19
Lisa Sonni
I mean, like, we're all living in the patriarchy, so it makes sense. But masculinity seems to include it. This version of masculinity seems to include sexual dominance. Right.

00:36:02:22 - 00:36:06:11
Rafael Gomez
I guess what do you mean by sexual? Don't like I might be missing, not.

00:36:06:11 - 00:36:27:06
Lisa Sonni
Like using sex to to coercing her to have sex with you, expecting it as an entitlement, being able to say things to her like, if you don't, then I'll go cheat or to cheat anyway. Just the absolute entitlement to her body and anytime you want it, right? Like it's good. Once you're in a relationship, she belongs to you and her body belongs to you.

00:36:27:07 - 00:36:45:23
Rafael Gomez
Yeah, I think there's there's a combination of things. I think I see it with the young man. I even saw a video today of a guy who basically wouldn't pay for dinner. She didn't sleep with him. Very. So that that's one example of, like where I think men just feel entitled and they feel like it's so transactional that it's like, well, I'm paying for dinner, so you just sleep with me and it's like, just go get a hooker, dude.

00:36:45:23 - 00:37:09:11
Rafael Gomez
Like, I don't know why, you know, like, yeah, like if it's so transactional where it's like, I pay money, you have sex, like, then what are you doing? Trying to date or court or do anything like that? Like that doesn't make any sense. But then, yeah, the coercion of it, even, like in married couples, you know, like there's a lot of men who especially, I think, listen to a lot of this stuff feel like, well, the woman supposed to at any time, the guy wants to have sex.

00:37:09:11 - 00:37:27:03
Rafael Gomez
And it's like I told a guy recently, I was like, I don't want my wife to fuck me because she has to, I want her to fuck me because she wants to. And like, to me, that's a whole different experience. You know, like if my wife is just like saying yes anytime I beg her to have sex, that's not going to make me feel good or it's not going to make me feel any kind of way.

00:37:27:07 - 00:37:45:03
Rafael Gomez
It's like, why don't you try the things you did when you first started, you know, sleeping with her, like, are there things you can do to, you know, get, you know, you've been together a long time. It's going to take a, you know, different approach. But a lot of these guys do feel entitled to it. They feel like because she married me, I that's my body and I get to do with it whatever I feel like.

00:37:45:05 - 00:38:01:06
Rafael Gomez
And to me, that's just a horrible way to see your partner. Like it's just like that. You don't see them as a human being, in my opinion. Yeah. They're no longer a human. They're just a whole. And I that's not any kind of relationship I would ever want, you know, somebody to be in, you know, including my own family.

00:38:01:06 - 00:38:19:17
Rafael Gomez
So. Yeah, it's just there is an entitlement of, like, I'm owed sex. And as a man, I'm supposed to get it one way or another. And, you know, if it's in a relationship, it can be, you know, coercion. If it's singleness, it could be transactional. There's so many different ways that men are trying to to go about it.

00:38:19:17 - 00:38:40:06
Rafael Gomez
And, the younger generation is actually having sex less than, than previous generations. And I do wonder if it's I, it feels like the, the younger generation is almost going back a little bit more conservative when it comes to sex. You know, which is fascinating because I feel like millennials, we, we laid the groundwork for people to have, I think, a bit more promiscuity,

00:38:40:06 - 00:38:47:00
Rafael Gomez
but they they're kind of pushing back against that. And, you know, I think we're seeing men struggle and I think we're seeing women be more picky

00:38:47:04 - 00:39:07:04
Lisa Sonni
about about that. I love that women have the ability to be more picky, I think. Where to your point, the problem when once you marry a man like this and I think when we were talking earlier about them being nice in the beginning, you're having lots of sex and then you shift into, you treat her like garbage and you're using all of these tactics on her and being manipulative and awful.

00:39:07:07 - 00:39:26:03
Lisa Sonni
She doesn't want to have sex with you anymore. And then you're like, hey, I've lost something that I used to have and it's mine, and I'm entitled to it. Why aren't you giving it to me? And when I talk about sexual coercion online, which I have to admit, I hate talking about this because it brings out the worst kind of men in my comment section for traumatizing comments.

00:39:26:03 - 00:39:47:08
Lisa Sonni
But almost all of them are like, well, he pays the bills, blah blah blah. On what planet are we all living in the same year? It is currently 2026. At the time of recording this, I don't understand what man actually thinks that women are not working and that a huge percentage of women, albeit not the majority, are out earning their husbands.

00:39:47:10 - 00:40:03:09
Lisa Sonni
So your your money is not earning you sex. And it's the same in a dating situation. Like they're talking about why paid for dinner and married men are just saying, well, I paid the mortgage number one. You probably didn't. And number two, is that what this is? You you purchased your wife with a house interest? Yeah.

00:40:03:09 - 00:40:22:04
Rafael Gomez
Yeah, a lot of them see it that way for sure. And, you know, most homes are dual income. I think about almost 50% of homes. Women are earning as much as their partners, and almost 20% of homes women are earning their husbands. And that trend is going up. That is only going in that direction. So this idea that one guy's paying all the bills, that is so unlikely, it is just absolutely not.

00:40:22:06 - 00:40:41:07
Rafael Gomez
You know, this economy doesn't allow for that. And even if it did, even if it did, like if that's what makes you feel powerful as I paid the bills, I get sex. I mean, to me that that's one of the most pathetic things I've ever heard of. To me, it's like, again, I want my partner to want to have sex with me, and that doesn't come with me just paying the bills.

00:40:41:12 - 00:40:57:00
Rafael Gomez
You know, that comes with me being the kind of person I am, being the kind of partner that I am, and being in the kind of relationship I am. There are a million ways to be attractive, and I don't think paying the bills is like even tops the list of what turns a woman on. So to me, it's like just such a bizarre, mindset.

00:40:57:01 - 00:41:16:06
Rafael Gomez
And I think guys who say, well, who's paying the bills? I think those are people who don't have relationships and have never had a modern relationship, because where are you even getting that from? Like, where are you even like maybe your parents generation did that. Maybe, I know my dad worked that time. Yeah. But you know, again, I just this entitlement to your partner.

00:41:16:11 - 00:41:29:13
Rafael Gomez
But I guess they don't even see him as partner, because even guys in the manosphere, if they hear me say partner, they immediately jump on me. So what do you mean? Partner is like, well, she's my partner is. I wish you your wife. So like, sure, that's also a title, but I see her as like a partner in life.

00:41:29:13 - 00:41:51:18
Rafael Gomez
I see her as somebody that we're doing this together, and, I take her into consideration just about anything I do. And just because she's my wife doesn't mean she owes me anything. You know, like, I think in a relationship that successful, you're constantly earning each other's love and earning each other's respect. That doesn't just come by default just because you, you know, you you obviously have that dedication to each other.

00:41:51:19 - 00:42:09:01
Rafael Gomez
But, that entitlement to me is, is I don't know I don't know where that comes from. I feel like everything in life you have to earn, there's, like, if you feel like you're owed a job. You know, I, I've heard guys say things like, you know, she, you know, to go through all this process, I got to, like, pay for dinners.

00:42:09:01 - 00:42:23:07
Rafael Gomez
I got to talk to her. I got to make her laugh. I got to go through all this just so I can have sex. It's like, Jesus, dude. Like, is that how you see the world? Like. And do you think that job's just going to hand you the job without you filling an application? Or like, submitting your resume or going through interviews?

00:42:23:07 - 00:42:30:05
Rafael Gomez
Like all of that stuff is the same thing. So if if you're not entitled to your career and your job, then why do you feel like you're entitled to a whole other human being?

00:42:30:07 - 00:42:47:08
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. Everything good in life might take some effort to really get it and earn it. I think a lot of men feel like they have this big gotcha moment as well in my comment sections that are like, well, if, if, if he has to earn it, then then so does she. And I'm like, yes, yeah, Kevin, that's correct.

00:42:47:09 - 00:42:49:14
Rafael Gomez
Mutual it's rest. Job.

00:42:49:16 - 00:43:11:13
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. Yeah. Understand the point. But they expect me to say like no men have to earn it. Women don't have to earn it. Everybody has to earn each other. Exactly. There's. But I do, you know, I mean, I'm a feminist. I have a shred of traditional sense in like, I think that men should pursue women early on. But I also, as a feminist, say, if that's not what a woman wants or a man wants, by all means, it's just exactly.

00:43:11:13 - 00:43:12:21
Lisa Sonni
I know I would want to be pursued.

00:43:12:22 - 00:43:26:13
Rafael Gomez
And that's what I tell men. It's like look like, yeah, in an egalitarian society, women will be approaching us as much as we approach them. Yes. Ideally that's how it would work. However, if that's not how it works, are you just going to sit on the sidelines or are you going to try to get the life you want?

00:43:26:13 - 00:43:41:09
Rafael Gomez
And I can tell you that being assertive and being, you know, going up to someone in a brave manner is more attractive than not. So it's like if it's going to increase your chances of finding a partner, why wouldn't you do it instead of just complaining about it online, which is, well, a lot of these guys do it

00:43:41:09 - 00:43:56:21
Rafael Gomez
just like, well, women can talk to us. It's like, okay, go to the bar, sit there and wait for a woman to talk to you. And if it doesn't happen, what's going to you're you're stuck there. Nothing's going to happen. But if you see somebody you want to talk to, go talk to them. And you might come out of that bar with a phone number like it's a totally different evening for you if you go after what you want.

00:43:56:21 - 00:44:11:10
Rafael Gomez
But they want to make a point to stand on principle instead of like, okay, great. Either you can be said, I'm going to go talk to women. Like that's what I'm going to decide to do. And of course, I always encourage women who go on my lives like what should I do? I was like, I believe anybody shoot their shot.

00:44:11:10 - 00:44:26:14
Rafael Gomez
If you see somebody, if you're a woman and you like somebody, go talk to them like there's no harm in doing that. but I do caveat as long as you can still be attracted to them after you're the one making the pursuit, because you're the one making the pursuit. And like you, you don't. You lose attraction because you're not doing it.

00:44:26:14 - 00:44:32:16
Rafael Gomez
Then maybe it's not going to work for you to do that. But if you're totally fine with it, go for it. Like shoot your shot. Anybody shoot their shot?

00:44:32:16 - 00:44:41:13
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I wish more men would. But I know in this probably again, a whole other topic. But I know men are like, you can't even approach women anymore. They're going to scream harassment or abuse. And it's like, they just can't win.

00:44:41:13 - 00:45:00:21
Rafael Gomez
No. Yeah. And that's just not true either. You know, I interviewed lots of women on the street. I'm harassing them, you know, when they have headphones in, when they're, you know, and I. Oh, and I always get decent reactions. And, you know, my mother in law is typically filming, so she normally has, like, a cell phone. You know, it's not like I'm obviously I don't have lights or anything. It's just me.

00:45:00:21 - 00:45:14:00
Rafael Gomez
But the, you know, small mic and, you know, these the women are always very receptive. And I always ask them, would you rather meet a guy in a dating life or on, a dating app or real life? And they all say real life, and I'm like, do guys talk to you? Most of them say no. And I'm like, would you like them too?

00:45:14:00 - 00:45:28:01
Rafael Gomez
Which is like, yeah. So this idea that like, you're these all these negative reactions are happening to men, I have to question how they're approaching. You know, obviously, if you approach with respect and you take rejection like a champ, there's not going to be a bad outcome. I can almost guarantee it.

00:45:28:07 - 00:45:38:03
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. As long as they can accept the rejection which is which is like the entitlement and the like the control here is like, how dare you reject me? That's the vibe.

00:45:38:03 - 00:45:55:00
Rafael Gomez
And a lot of these guys don't realize that, like, women have even like change their mind. If you handle rejection well because it shows that you're confident, it shows that you're not desperate. It shows a lot of, or I've heard stories of women who say, you know, well, look, you you seem like a good guy. I'm taken. But here's my friend, you know, she's single if

00:45:55:01 - 00:46:17:18
Rafael Gomez
you want to talk to her. And like, that all happened because a guy took rejection. Well, and, that's one of the main things I teach men. I teach men how to approach with respect and how to take rejection well, like with grace, because if you do both of those things, everyone's going to have a decent time. They're going to feel complimented because you you approach them nicely. They're going to feel safe because you took the rejection well, and you theoretically should feel proud that you went up there and did it. And that should give you a boost.

00:46:17:18 - 00:46:32:06
Rafael Gomez
It's always give me a boost, even if I get told no. And it always give me a boost of like, look at me. I went and did it. And, you know, it was a fine interaction. I did it work? No, but the next one might and you know, but and I know that's tougher. It's easier said than done. But that's what I try to teach men.

00:46:32:06 - 00:46:45:11
Rafael Gomez
My main thing about, dating is, is giving men confidence is basically what I'm trying to teach men because they have, like, a lot of these men, especially the guys who fall for Red pill. They are absolutely lacking confidence, and they're looking for it anywhere they can.

00:46:45:12 - 00:47:06:19
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. It's heartbreaking. Truly. I know that as a person who gets called a massage every day, it's so ironic to me because I actually think so highly of men. I think men are so capable and so able to be emotional and good. Truly kind man. I know that it exists. I have a father, a brother, a son, a fiancé like it's everywhere around me.

00:47:06:19 - 00:47:22:20
Lisa Sonni
But I see so much crap online, and I certainly have been in my own share of abusive relationships. And I help women out of these abusive relationships. I feel like you and I are doing the right kind of work. I'm helping women leave these men and you're helping there be less men like this to leave in the first place?

00:47:22:22 - 00:47:23:18
Rafael Gomez
Yes, that's.

00:47:23:23 - 00:47:51:15
Lisa Sonni
The whole point. That is wrong. I think you know, if he's using fear and withdrawal and criticism, negging, sexual pressure, dominance, all of this. This is not masculinity. This is not leadership at all. This is just the man. Is fear hurting everyone. It's the patriarchy hurting everyone. And it's abuse. It's really I'm so glad that you do this work, and I really want to encourage people to look at your channel, Women on Men, and just look at and actually men too.

00:47:51:15 - 00:48:08:22
Lisa Sonni
But women are mostly my audience. But to really look at your content and just see that this is these men are wrong about what women want. And I know these men that are being red pilled end up in being the perpetrator in abusive relationships, and they ultimately get left anyway.

00:48:09:02 - 00:48:26:11
Rafael Gomez
So it's and I talked to enough people who have left Red pill. And there's also a subreddit called x Red pill, which if you haven't seen, I highly recommend you check it out because a lot of people will post things like, oh, I saw this woman today say she wants a tall, handsome guy and it immediately made me want to go back to the red pill. And it's like, you can.

00:48:26:12 - 00:48:41:15
Rafael Gomez
These people are being really honest about like, I have these feelings when I see these videos online, how can I detox? And a lot of people will give them advice. And it's like the advice that, or the situation that has created a lot of men to leave the red pill is they talk to experienced women in real life.

00:48:41:17 - 00:48:58:17
Rafael Gomez
They start to talk to women, they start to talk to their cousins. They start to just engage with women in real life, and they realize all the stuff they were hearing about women on the do. The red pill in the manosphere just isn't true. And so that was a lot of guys first wake up calls. They realize, oh, okay, maybe what I'm hearing online isn't true.

00:48:58:17 - 00:49:16:07
Rafael Gomez
This woman was very nice to me when I was emotional, or this woman did this, which they all tell me, that won't happen, you know? But then when they see it for themselves, then they start to say, maybe this stuff isn't true. And so that's what a lot of these stories are. And I always talk to these guys about, like, the people that are listening to, again, most of these people are miserable.

00:49:16:07 - 00:49:35:02
Rafael Gomez
Most of these people do not have happy relationships. And I don't understand taking advice from people who do not have the life that you want. So if you're listening to somebody for financial advice and they don't really have, you know, a lot of finances, then why you listening to them is the same thing with these guys who are giving you relationship advice, and you have never really been in a relationship.

00:49:35:07 - 00:49:41:04
Rafael Gomez
So I it's it's a grift more than anything you have, but it's a convincing one to a lot of men who don't know any better.

00:49:41:09 - 00:49:47:17
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. It's so unfortunate. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate your time and your perspective. Well,

00:49:47:17 - 00:49:49:12
Rafael Gomez
thank you. I appreciate it.

00:49:49:14 - 00:49:59:00
Lisa Sonni
If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:49:59:02 - 00:50:03:05
Music
Stronger than before.