Why Women End Up Doing Everything in Relationships with Terri Cole | S3E10

For years, women have been told they’re codependent. Too attached, too emotional, too responsible for everyone else’s feelings. And a lot of you have worn that label like proof that something is wrong with you. 

So I brought on Terri Cole, licensed psychotherapist, boundary expert, and the voice behind “high-functioning codependency,” to talk about what this word actually means, how it gets misused, and why it can erase power, context, and safety when we’re talking about emotionally unsafe men. 

We get into self-abandonment, the auto-yes, the low-grade resentment that never seems to have a clear source, and the way “being the capable one” can turn into a full-time job you never applied for. We also talk about boundaries in real life, what changes when someone is toxic or controlling, and why some women don’t recognize themselves in the classic codependency story even when they’re exhausted, overextended, and carrying everything. 

Terri also shares the definition she uses, why she coined the term high-functioning codependency, and the small daily shifts that start giving you your life back. 

Resources she shared: 

boundaryquiz.com 

https://www.terricole.com/btc/

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:08:17
Music


00:00:08:19 - 00:00:36:04
Lisa Sonni
This is real talk with Lisa Sonni Relationships Uncensored, the podcast. They don't want you listening to. For so many years. You know, women get called codependent and too attached or too emotional, too responsible for other people's feelings. And they label themselves people pleasers and, you know, really are hard on themselves and see themselves in this way. But there's an interesting conversation to be had here about this word codependency.

00:00:36:07 - 00:00:51:02
Lisa Sonni
It's a topic, actually, that my audience has frequently asked me to talk more about. And I think, you know what? There's no better person to bring into this conversation than Terry Cole. So I'd love to have you introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about who you are and about your books.

00:00:51:05 - 00:01:10:01
Terri Cole
I've been a licensed psychotherapist for 28 years. Before that, I was a talent agent and negotiating contracts for supermodels and celebrities. So I've been in the world of of, like, highly visible people for a long time, too, because in that, that sort of followed me into my practice. Everything that I write about, I have, three I just finished my fourth book that comes out in October,

00:01:10:03 - 00:01:26:08
Terri Cole
but everything I write about, my first book is about boundaries called Boundary Bus. That I did a Boundary Books workbook that my second book is Too Much, which is about high functioning codependency, which I think we're probably going to talk quite a bit about today. And then my next book, the last book that I owe my publisher, thank God, is called Father Wound.

00:01:26:08 - 00:01:51:05
Terri Cole
And I'm going to be talking about father wounds and the patriarchy and a whole, whole bunch of things in that book that comes out in the end of October 2026. So the work that I do is predominantly through the lens of the female experience. Because it's what I know and every single book I've ever chosen to write has been because, like with boundaries, I was a boundary disaster and became eventually a boundary master.

00:01:51:05 - 00:02:10:13
Terri Cole
But I realized whatever is causing me pain, whatever my challenges are, I'm not alone, right? There's hundreds of millions of women in the world who are having the same experience and so My goal has always been to teach people, anything that I can that will help them lessen their own suffering and elevate their own joy in this life.

00:02:10:14 - 00:02:33:21
Terri Cole
So it's, really, really about, self-empowerment. And I think that as women in particular, we get a bit of a raw deal the way that we are. Taught. Like when you really think about it, most of us were raised and praised to be self abandoning codependents, like, actually that that was our our home training was. The more selfless you are, the more pleasant you are.

00:02:33:21 - 00:03:07:02
Terri Cole
The nicer you are, the better. Now, I'm not saying be unpleasant or be nice, but I am saying if we prioritize those things, We've really been set up and trained to be professional people pleasers, but eventually that becomes very unpleasing to us. So that's that's basically me. You know, I had a private practice for many years and started with a public platform, probably around 2011, and I started teaching online because there were so there was such a need for what I was doing this before any books, because my first book came out in 2021.

00:03:07:06 - 00:03:26:15
Terri Cole
But I wondered, I know what I do in therapy with one on one people in my office. I know it works. Will it work virtually with groups on the interwebs? I have no idea. So I beta tested a boundary course in 2015, took all the data, all the information that people gave me about what they wanted more of.

00:03:26:15 - 00:03:51:06
Terri Cole
They wanted it to be twice as long in a bunch of things. And I created one of my signature courses and it's called Boundary Boot Camp. And I realized that not only does it translate from the therapy room to a group of people, it was actually more powerful for being with a group of people. So all of this compassionate witnessing that was happening within the group, it was people were just really transforming quickly.

00:03:51:07 - 00:04:03:13
Terri Cole
So anyway, I've been teaching, you know, signature online courses from codependency to mother wounds, father wounds ever since I've got a whole bunch of courses that I teach. And I have a course on high functioning codependency, too, that starting today, actually.

00:04:03:17 - 00:04:28:07
Lisa Sonni
Oh, perfect timing indeed. So what? Great work. Because, you know, I feel like I was stumbling through life not not knowing that I was self abandoning it didn't even didn't even occur to me that I, I had never even heard the phrase in all honesty and when I sort of started my own journey after an abusive relationship and learning like not from a place of judgment, but from a place of curiosity, what got me there, what made me think any of that behavior was normal?

00:04:28:07 - 00:04:45:00
Lisa Sonni
Why did I continue to try harder and just honestly self abandoned even more? That's when I started to learn about this. Now the word codependency is just sort of like, well, your codependent. I think it gets thrown around a lot. Sure. But I think more importantly is how do we become that? And I, I love what you said.

00:04:45:00 - 00:05:08:12
Lisa Sonni
It's not that it's men are never that. I also speak to women and I choose the same thing. It's my lived experience. That's why I choose to speak through this lens. I don't want to invalidate anybody else, but that's my experience. And I see more women as people pleasers than men. And it it I believe that it's social reasons for the most part, and patriarchy and all those topics.

00:05:08:12 - 00:05:23:14
Lisa Sonni
Not to get off topic, but I think that codependency also ignores power and context and safety. And you know, we need to be asking really a harder question, right? When does self abandonment come from conditioning and when is it a response to coercive control?

00:05:23:17 - 00:05:49:14
Terri Cole
I think that I would back it all the way up myself. So let's talk about codependency because I think it's, you know, this is so relevant for your audience and honestly so relevant for anybody. Because it's a relational problem. Right. And we're all in relationships with people. So I'll tell you quickly the story about why I wrote the book too much, which is about stopping the cycle of high functioning codependency and why I coined the phrase high functioning codependency.

00:05:49:19 - 00:06:10:12
Terri Cole
So I have women like you and women like me. That's that's who my therapy practice has been for all these decades, which is highly capable women. So if I would observe a codependent pattern and I would say, hey, what you're describing is codependency, they would immediately reject the notion and say, dependent. Everyone's dependent on me. I'm leaving all the emotional labor

00:06:10:12 - 00:06:28:23
Terri Cole
I'm making, all the cash. I'm moving all the pieces on the board. I'm making sure that everything gets done in the house. I'm me. I'm keeping the boat afloat. So who am I dependent on? And I realized that my clients didn't know what codependency was. They were being unduly influenced by Melody Beattie, God rest her soul. You know, codependent no more.

00:06:29:01 - 00:06:49:03
Terri Cole
I can't tell you how many women have said I'm not involved with an addict. I'm like, you don't have to be, though. So I knew it. There was this negative thing. And in my, demographic specifically, they were very averse to the whole notion. So then I started doing research. Just just even my own research, my own clientele and my own life experience in a

00:06:49:03 - 00:07:06:15
Terri Cole
row is, you know, this is different. You don't have to be involved with an addict. This is about self abandonment. This is about a lack of self consideration. This is about doing all the things for all the people and then ending up feeling under-considered by others. Even though we wrote the playbook on how it was going to be.

00:07:06:18 - 00:07:27:11
Terri Cole
So when I added high functioning to codependency with my clients, they were like, me, I'm the problem. It's me. That's a quote. Taylor Swift, but I will. Yeah, and they could raise their hand without shame. They're like, I am high functioning. I am doing all the things for other people. I am kind of low grade, pissed off all the time and I am feeling like people are entitled.

00:07:27:13 - 00:07:49:23
Terri Cole
So that was a nice shift. So why don't we? I'm going to give you my definition of codependency so that we all have like a working definition that we're talking about. According to me, it is when you are overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the relationships, the finances, the careers, the situations of the people in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace.

00:07:49:23 - 00:08:14:18
Terri Cole
So we're going to let the distinction settle. It hit me because right as HFCS, I function to go to balance. We love our people. Of course we want them to be happy, have all the things we love them and the differences. When you are in recovery from being in HFC or when you were just simply, empathic and compassionate, when your friend has a problem, you're like, I feel sympathy and compassion for my friend.

00:08:14:20 - 00:08:52:03
Terri Cole
I'm here for her. I hope she works it out. When you're at HFC, how quickly does your friend's emergency become your problem? To fix it is the exaggerated, the amplified sense of responsibility for other people that really makes us have functioning codependence, and that is a different trip altogether. There is no weakness in this. There is no, you know, because if we think of what are the myths or what are the things we think about when we think about codependency, and as you were saying, and your therapist was saying it was getting thrown around all over the interwebs, you know, it's like the long suffering woman sitting at home waiting for the husband to

00:08:52:03 - 00:09:14:01
Terri Cole
bring home the paycheck, but he's out drinking it at the rate, like, these women are like, no, that's not me at all. I'm like a CEO. Oh, I'm a CFO. I'm a pop star. I'm out. I mean, I've had the gamut of clients. So changing the definition and realizing another thing about HFCS that makes us different is that we could become codependent with virtually anyone.

00:09:14:03 - 00:09:33:02
Terri Cole
Meaning we become codependent, plugged into our environment. So like, let's I'll give you a quick example. This is something that just and this only happened about five years ago. So Jasmine recovery is an up and down for all the people. Even when you read the book. it was a Saturday. I went into my hair salon in New York City, which I normally wouldn't go on Saturday because it's such a zoo, but I had to.

00:09:33:05 - 00:09:52:07
Terri Cole
So it's busy as hell and I'm laying in the sink because they have some treatment on my hair. And now because it's busy, the sink traffic is starting to line up, but I'm just laying there like an idiot doing nothing because I have to wait ten minutes for my hair. So I'm like, oh, maybe I should. I should tell the assistant that I could move so they could use the sink.

00:09:52:07 - 00:10:12:12
Terri Cole
So hope she doesn't get in trouble, because now there's a line. I wonder if someone's going to like this with some shit that had nothing to do with me. And I'm sitting here. What is the cost of being dialed in and feeling hyper responsible for what is happening in your environment, even when it's not your responsibility? Well, what it could have been doing

00:10:12:12 - 00:10:32:18
Terri Cole
instead of raising my cortisol in that moment, I could have called my mom. I could have listened to a podcast. I could have meditated. I could have done breathing exercises. I could have just rested my exhausted brain. But instead, I thought I had a better idea about how the sink flow should work at my hair salon. So I quickly do a video for because it was.

00:10:32:22 - 00:10:50:21
Terri Cole
It was really a revelation for me then where I was like, you do this everywhere. It's not just here. I got into recovery in my relationships, but I was still codependent, attached in my environment. I put up a video on YouTube and people were like, it went viral and people were like losing it, being like, oh my God, this is me everywhere.

00:10:50:21 - 00:11:01:02
Terri Cole
I can't be in a train. If someone has a problem, I'm like, I'll switch seats. Like, I can't wait to volunteer and fix whatever problem is happening around me. And that is another symptom. And it's exhausting.

00:11:01:06 - 00:11:23:11
Lisa Sonni
It is. I completely agree with you. It is so exhausting to always be thinking about other people. And I'm I'm a mother. I've got a little boy and a little girl seven and nine, and I think so much especially about my daughter. Right. Like she's like, I'm helping mommy. And I'm always like, that's a good thing. But, I don't want her to feel like she always needs to be doing and thinking and pleasing and making people happy.

00:11:23:11 - 00:11:28:09
Lisa Sonni
So I'm just like, hey, I'm also a millennial, so I'm overthinking parenting in the worst way possible

00:11:28:12 - 00:11:28:22
Terri Cole
because you

00:11:28:22 - 00:11:38:16
Lisa Sonni
are trying to do it perfectly, but I so I totally relate to that feeling of being in that hair salon. That's what a powerful story. And I'm not surprised that went viral at all.

00:11:38:18 - 00:11:57:19
Terri Cole
here's the thing about having a different definition is that for so many people like me, this book has been out for two years now, and I can't. I mean, tens of thousands of people getting in touch, saying it changed my life because I never would have so myself. And the problem? Because here, herein lies the rub. The more competent you are, the less codependency

00:11:57:21 - 00:12:18:20
Terri Cole
looks like codependency, but it's still codependency. So we're still suffering. We're still feeling kind of pissed. We're still in pain, but nobody, least nobody is like, I'm going to check in on Lisa. I hope she's okay. You know what? They know you're okay. Nobody's checking in on me because I'm the one checking in and everyone else nobody thinks. I hope Terry's okay.

00:12:19:00 - 00:12:49:13
Terri Cole
They don't think that. You know why? Because we've taught them how to treat us. And then we're mad when our relationships feel one sided. Because this is another experience of being in that codependent relationship, is that we're doing when you're active, you're sort of doing more of the work in the relationship. And I used to say this tongue in cheek kind of kidding, but it was true that in my 20s, I could take a perfectly competent boyfriend and turn that guy into an under-functioner in two weeks or less.

00:12:49:17 - 00:12:50:21
Terri Cole
But you understand what I mean?

00:12:51:00 - 00:13:09:05
Lisa Sonni
Oh yeah, I absolutely do. And I mean listen I'm sure there are plenty of men that would happily step into that under functioning role to have someone do all the work and all the labor, and all the mental labor even. But yeah, that, that makes sense. That does make a lot of sense. How do these women HFCS,

00:13:09:05 - 00:13:31:01
Lisa Sonni
how do they function in a relationship that is toxic and or abusive, which I really want to differentiate those two categories. But sometimes I think maybe, you know, where the where the perfect victim in many ways, right? Not playing the victim, I mean truly a victim, but it's like, oh, perfect, you want to do everything great, go ahead and do all of that.

00:13:31:01 - 00:13:35:16
Lisa Sonni
And then it's, you know, we're exploited in a way that other people may not be.

00:13:35:19 - 00:14:04:16
Terri Cole
So let's look at codependency, whether it's garden variety like melody Berry you're involved with an addict or whether it's high functioning, what I've described at the core of either one of those behavioral, patterns is a covert or overt bid to control someone else's outcome, someone else's feelings. So when you're in a toxic relationship and your partner's in a bad mood, you might be in a fine mood and they come home, and then you're dancing as fast as you can to change their mood.

00:14:04:19 - 00:14:24:07
Terri Cole
Whether it's let me make you a drink, or do you want to have sex or let me anything, to not sit with that mood and especially and take it one step further. If it's an abusive relationship, that mood can then be threatening to what's going to happen for you later in that evening. So, you know there's real reasons we behave this way.

00:14:24:07 - 00:14:48:01
Terri Cole
But think about how much how often you're walking on eggshells in your relationship. Right. Because this is an indication that you're managing the person that you're with. We walk on eggshells because of our hypervigilance. We are awake in every room. We are attuned to every person. Oh, there's a problem. I could be in a restaurant. There could be a problem in like the back left corner.

00:14:48:06 - 00:15:04:17
Terri Cole
And I'll say to my my is telling some story. I'm listening to that story halfway and then halfway. I'm saying, oh, there's a big bro. I'm going to break out on the left hand corner of this thing. I think we should get our food to go. Like, you know, he's like, are you ever actually listening to me? I'm like, sorry. I'm also so dialed in to what's happening around us.

00:15:04:21 - 00:15:25:12
Terri Cole
So how do you know if you're doing it? First of all, I think the first thing that anyone should do, if they're like, I don't know, like I wonder, is it me? Is we're going to do a very quick resentment inventory. Okay. Super simple. You're going to bring to mind primary relationships in your life and, you know, item list. You know I know we all know who are we holding resentment for?

00:15:25:12 - 00:15:48:13
Terri Cole
Who do we feel underappreciated by? Who do we feel feels entitled to our sunshine? Who do we feel doesn't treat us the way that they should or doesn't regard us, doesn't hold us in high esteem? Maybe condescends or whatever. Whatever your resentment is, we're going to use the people in the situation because you'll write them both down like, hey, it's my sister and I'm feeling resentful.

00:15:48:13 - 00:16:06:02
Terri Cole
I use this in one of the books, true story feeling resentful. When my sister and I both lived in New York City, we had each other's keys to each other's apartment, and we could go in so we would have double the closet. We were the same size, so we could have double the closet. So my sister was like a pain and would like, come and take stuff for my house and not tell me.

00:16:06:05 - 00:16:19:15
Terri Cole
And so then I'd be like, packing to go somewhere and I couldn't find something, you know what I mean? And it would be I was like, listen, I don't care. I don't care what you take. Just tell me, you know? So that's a situation where I put, okay, I'm resentful. And then we go the next situation and person.

00:16:19:19 - 00:16:39:02
Terri Cole
Then the next one is what is my 50% of that scenario? Well, with my sister, I never had an honest conversation about how much it bothered me. I mentioned it, I was sarcastic, I was kind of flippant, but I didn't actually say, hey, like, this bothers me so much that if you keep doing it, I'm going to take my key back, because that's really how I felt about it.

00:16:39:04 - 00:17:08:12
Terri Cole
And eventually I did have that conversation. She was like, okay, relax, drama. But then she no longer went to my house and took things without asking. Like, it made a difference. Because in a lot of these scenarios, we you know, the way that I break down boundaries, right, is that, you know, we're dealing with people. Usually they're either a boundary first timer, they're a repeat offender, they're a boundary bully, or they're a boundary destroyer, which is more of the toxic, abusive, narcissistic personality. Cluster B personality disorders

00:17:08:12 - 00:17:37:01
Terri Cole
if you're a therapist. Right. It's like those situations which we handle boundaries differently. Right. So how I would approach a first timer. So if my sister, let's say I never had the honest conversation, I would have to approach her as a first timer, which means I'm going to take responsibility for what I want. I'd like to make a simple request that if you want to still have access to my closet, that you will let me know or ask me to borrow whatever it is before going there, or let me Know that you did it at the very least.

00:17:37:06 - 00:17:54:02
Terri Cole
So that's what's required. Now there'll be a different conversation. If the person's a repeat offender, then you add a consequence, like I did with my sister said, hey, you keep doing it. I'm going to have to take the key back. Which sucks for both of us, because I still want to have double the closet. And I let you know when I'm going to your apartment, with boundary destroyers.

00:17:54:02 - 00:18:13:08
Terri Cole
And I think for this conversation. Yeah, this is a helpful pivot, right? Let's pivot down that road of how do you have boundaries with people who are abusive? How do you have boundaries with people who are toxic or even simply difficult? Right. And they're going to be different, but they're going to be similar in that we don't handle it the same.

00:18:13:10 - 00:18:35:22
Terri Cole
If you're dealing with someone who literally has a narcissistic personality disorder, their ability to care about how you feel and how their actions are impacting you is really small. Yeah. Like they don't care because they don't want their supply to be cut off. They'll care because they still want to have sex with you. They'll care because how will it look at the club?

00:18:35:22 - 00:18:58:17
Terri Cole
If we get a divorce, they'll care for all the wrong reasons. They're good at feigning compassion or feigning. I can't live without you. Boo hoo. Right? But. Right. If you've ever been involved with anyone who has narcissistic teens or a real cold blooded narcissist, you know that they don't have the capacity to feel your pain or to put themselves in your position, and they have no interest in doing so.

00:18:58:21 - 00:19:26:19
Terri Cole
So that's that's more of an access lens. We look at those relationships through the lens of how much access should this person get to my most tender heart, are they emotionally trustworthy? If they're a narcissist, the answer is no. No they are not. So it's less access. I always talk about this as like your VIP section and you know, we get confused a lot of times, especially if you are codependent.

00:19:27:00 - 00:19:48:02
Terri Cole
You know, we almost feel like we have to let everyone in to the VIP section of your life. So visualize it like a VIP section in a club. But the difference is that you're the bouncer, you make the guest list and you have to put up the velvet rope because if not, then just any mother effer can come in and just plop themselves down in a seat and take up your time, your energy, your bandwidth.

00:19:48:05 - 00:20:12:05
Terri Cole
And I think that if we bring it all the way back around, it's how do we value ourselves, right when we are highly codependent? A lot of times there's this lack of self-worth where we get confused and feel like us being of service or value is us being utilitarian. What are you gaining for me, I can be so helpful.

00:20:12:07 - 00:20:40:17
Terri Cole
I am so very clever and I'm very. And the thing with high functioning codependency and I know this because I've got a whole community of them, is that we are so smart, so capable, could figure out any problem, could get anything done. But a lot of times it is at the expense of ourselves. And so much of the work that I do is moving us towards what I call more self consideration, because I think that talking about self-love sounds very trite.

00:20:40:19 - 00:21:01:03
Terri Cole
It's very not concrete. It's very like if you just love yourself more, but I'll work out like you want to be like, dude, that's so unhelpful. And what does it even mean? But I know what self consideration mean. Self consideration means that you rest when you're tired, that you give yourself permission to change your mind, to make mistakes, to course correct when you need to.

00:21:01:07 - 00:21:23:09
Terri Cole
Right. That's self consideration is before you agree to one other thing in your life. This will be your new rule. You're going to ask yourself these two questions. Do I have the bandwidth to do this without becoming resentful? And number two is do I even friggin want to do it because so much of the time is codependent? that's never a consideration.

00:21:23:09 - 00:21:27:03
Terri Cole
We're like, what? They want me to do it. So now apparently it's on my plate. Somehow it

00:21:27:05 - 00:21:32:23
Lisa Sonni
doesn't even occur to you that you could just be like, I don't actually have the capacity for that. You know what I'm thinking? I

00:21:32:23 - 00:21:33:10
Terri Cole
don't like

00:21:33:10 - 00:21:51:10
Lisa Sonni
it. Right? It that it matters so much when people are at work. I think, you know, maybe fear of saying no to a project. You're nervous, you're going to get passed over for a promotion or whatever. But in the context of relationships, it's like, but I need to give. But I have to say yes, I, I'm not even sure if that's conscious.

00:21:51:10 - 00:21:56:17
Lisa Sonni
It just request is made and suddenly you find yourself doing it. It just kind of is it's. Automatic call

00:21:56:23 - 00:22:16:04
Terri Cole
We call that the auto. Yes. Actually that's exactly what I write about. And what other things do we do as HFCS as well? We have anticipatory planning where when we're going to be with a difficult person, we're plotting out all the ways that we're going to handle whatever shit that could go down that we hope is not going to go down, but we are prepared in case it does.

00:22:16:06 - 00:22:31:10
Terri Cole
I used to have these two uncles I would have Christmas Eve at my house and they didn't talk to each other. And so I for years I would be like my one sister. I'm like, you're with Uncle Bobby, you're with Uncle Jimmy. We're going. I got the booze that I'd like to drink. I got instead of just being like, hey, you two grown up idiots,

00:22:31:10 - 00:22:47:06
Terri Cole
if you can't figure it out, then neither one of you. We're coming to Christmas saying goodbye. But when you were an HFC, it's almost like you really do think you know best. and you really are capable. So you're like, I can do it if you are the I got it girl. Right? You're like, I got it, I got it, I got it.

00:22:47:07 - 00:23:06:23
Terri Cole
This is also part of that experience. But there's such a high cost. The reason we don't want to do it in this way. Saying yes when you want to say no, I mean, listen, obviously what ends up happening, you end up being bitter. But more than that, when we don't assert our preferences, just our preferences, simple preferences, when we say yes, we want to say no.

00:23:06:23 - 00:23:27:01
Terri Cole
What ends up happening in our lives is that the people who are supposed to know us, the best don't really know us, because how can they end? How can anyone deeply love you if you never allow them to deeply know you because you're too busy managing them and the relationship and what will happen and how everyone feels and that everything is okay.

00:23:27:01 - 00:23:36:07
Terri Cole
Like that's all we want. But the cost is so high because every single beautiful soul listening to this right now is so worth knowing.

00:23:36:10 - 00:24:05:08
Lisa Sonni
people who are in these toxic and abusive relationships which I think you know, the women that end up in those relationships are often now that I'm, you know, in reading this book like too much and talking with you, these women, they're high functioning codependent who end up in abusive relationships. A lot of this advice that you're you're giving in these stories that you're sharing are so applicable when you're out of the relationship and how to kind of start looking at the world differently and looking at yourself differently and how you show up.

00:24:05:08 - 00:24:23:21
Lisa Sonni
It matters so much for the healing part of it. I know for me, again, the phrase self abandonment didn't even cross my brain at any point until I really was hit face first with this is what you're doing and this is why this keeps happening, and this is why you feel random resentment that you can't even quite place.

00:24:23:21 - 00:24:39:10
Lisa Sonni
And yet, I don't know that I ever went through this exact exercise that you're talking about, but really thinking about who in my life do I go over function for, with the exception of my children, you know, and I'm happy to say that mostly they don't have that anymore because I don't want it. I'm not self abandoning anymore.

00:24:39:10 - 00:24:46:14
Lisa Sonni
Now I say what I want. I always was able to at work, but never in relationships. It was like two different versions of me. Do you see the common?

00:24:46:14 - 00:24:48:02
Terri Cole
Very common. It's

00:24:48:02 - 00:24:51:01
Lisa Sonni
not just me. That's good. Why is that? Let me ask you.

00:24:51:01 - 00:25:15:12
Terri Cole
Oh, part of it, I think, is that when you're masterful at something, there's a different relationship where if you are not recreating your original injuries at work and a lot of us don't, we are, though, recreating those original injuries in relationships and a lot of times we're recreating them in friendships. Some people do do it at work, but I don't know exactly why because I didn't either.

00:25:15:13 - 00:25:46:21
Terri Cole
Right? For me, coming through this whole recovery process, I was always very successful. But part of it is when you're an HFC, you know how to manage systems and you know if you work enough, if you deliver enough of you HFC and I can speak for myself, I would just work myself to death. But I knew if I was above reproach, if my stuff was so good, and if my willingness to be a part of the solution was so high that especially work wise, I would be valued.

00:25:46:21 - 00:26:04:01
Terri Cole
And that's actually true. And it's funny, that same premise doesn't actually translate to relationships, because the more you over function, over give, overdo, over feel have no self consideration, the less respected you are in your relationship. So it doesn't work the same way.

00:26:04:01 - 00:26:25:07
Lisa Sonni
That's a hugely, you know, good distinction right there to me because it's so true. I find if you're the I can do it kind of woman, you're going to be doing it. All right. You really? Yeah. Especially in the toxic, abusive realm. People are willing to exploit that in you. They love that. That's one of their favorite qualities, is that you're willing to take the blame.

00:26:25:09 - 00:26:41:14
Lisa Sonni
Take the responsibility. I'll do it. I'll manage it. One thing I hear a lot is this is so high functioning, codependent, and it's also a trope, right? And I see, like, couples accounts make skits on this, even if they're at a doctor or a dentist or something, a reception desk. And it's like, sir, you need to fill out this paperwork.

00:26:41:14 - 00:27:01:13
Lisa Sonni
And he's like, and hands it straight to his wife to do the paperwork. It's assumed I was that woman, you know, like, I don't care. I'll do the paperwork, I'll make the appointment. I'll remind you how you end up treating your partner like a child. Yep. There. And then which user is happy to be treated that way? In some respects, because they want that over functioning.

00:27:01:17 - 00:27:10:06
Lisa Sonni
It becomes your job, your role. And then if you have the audacity to step out of your role, you're harming them. You're the abuser. It's a quite the flip.

00:27:10:10 - 00:27:36:18
Terri Cole
Yeah, there's the davo of it all, but there's something to really be said about thinking about. Another question that you guys could ask yourselves is, where am I doing things for others that they can and should be doing for themselves? Yes. And that includes children, right? Developmentally appropriate. Right. So we're not making four year olds wash their own clothes, but there is a lot of over functioning, especially in the younger millennial generation of parents.

00:27:36:18 - 00:27:55:12
Terri Cole
Where then then you wonder why your kids don't have any skills because you didn't let them get any skills. And how do we get skills? Another thing that I think would be really helpful, and this can be any conversation because with HFC is a lot of times we are the auto advice givers of the world too. So it can be anybody.

00:27:55:12 - 00:28:17:20
Terri Cole
I didn't I was completely indiscriminate in who I would give advice to my mailman, anybody. I was friendly with all the people and I knew what everyone should be doing in their lives. So that's a heavy burden for us to take on emotionally. Even though you may be doing it automatically, you may not even think about it, but how quickly you feel responsible for coming up with an answer for someone who's in pain or someone who's struggling with something.

00:28:18:00 - 00:28:30:15
Terri Cole
So from here on in, everybody listening and including you is before you give any advice to anybody, even a child, the first question you're gonna ask them is, okay, before I say anything, what do you think you should do?

00:28:30:17 - 00:28:51:09
Lisa Sonni
You had to take a breath there. That is such good advice. That is such good advice. I think, you know, when I speak to mom, friends and things most. And again, my kids are seven and nine for context. But most of my friends children don't really have chores like pick up after yourself, perhaps, but my kids are responsible for specific things in the house.

00:28:51:09 - 00:29:08:12
Lisa Sonni
Age appropriate, and I've only been doing it for maybe two years. But I mean, like, my five year old was Windexing things, you know, and loved it. They move past that. We love to help stage, let me tell you. But I'm teaching you skills and participation. Yes. You know, like, yes. You're not helping me. You're participating in the house.

00:29:08:17 - 00:29:24:10
Lisa Sonni
Get your own cutlery for dinner, get your own drink for dinner. And I know a lot of parents are like, you know, we don't want the kerfuffle as we're plating things. Go sit down. And I'm like, no, no, come in here and get your own drink and get your own cutlery. And now we're on dishwasher duty and yep, they don't like it.

00:29:24:10 - 00:29:45:16
Terri Cole
And but yeah, I'm raising what. You're giving them that when you know it, at least you know it. That's why you're doing it is that you are giving them small tasks daily that make them feel masterful, that make them feel good about themselves, that make them see, I can do something and I'm not doing it all wrong. Like I can do something and it is a gift.

00:29:45:18 - 00:30:07:06
Terri Cole
It also when we ask the question, what do you think you should do? Whether you're talking to a six, a 16 year old or a 60 year old, what you're doing is you're becoming more intimate with that person. Instead of trying to control them with advice, you are asking expansive questions. If they say, I don't know what I should do, all right, babe, but if you did know, what would it be? Yeah, just,

00:30:07:06 - 00:30:24:01
Terri Cole
just we're just brainstorming. Just whatever comes to your mind saying. Right. Because we're exactly. Because we're teaching them. And even with people who are used to you giving answers and they may say, well, I just want to know what you think. And I'll always say, listen, man, I'm a psychotherapist. I give advice for a living. It sounds like we're never going to weigh in.

00:30:24:04 - 00:30:36:02
Terri Cole
The important thing that is telling, fixing the people in our lives cannot be the first step on the bus. If we want to have deeply reciprocal relationships.

00:30:36:04 - 00:31:01:11
Lisa Sonni
so connected to the idea that there are so many women that have left an abusive relationship, or if you even prepare yourself, if you're planning to leave, how can I show up differently next time? How can I change the relationship with my mother, my sister? Because, well, one thing we know when you leave a relationship like this, often even very isolated, when you leave that relationship and you start to get healthy, you're working with a therapist, a coach, whatever, and you start to get healthy.

00:31:01:13 - 00:31:26:01
Lisa Sonni
Your world gets smaller because you start to see there's people around you, not just the abuser, that maybe you've left already, but your mom is a little dependent. And I don't mean codependent. I mean dependent on you to be doing everything or your sister. And so I love this idea of like, where is the resentment and asking people that I think also there's something really nice about telling people in so many words, I have faith that you can figure this out.

00:31:26:01 - 00:31:30:02
Lisa Sonni
You're doing it better. But that's sort of like, I know nobody can figure this out.

00:31:30:05 - 00:31:50:00
Terri Cole
That's exactly right, though. And that's I always say that too, like because I give scripts about like because people are like, well, what do I mean, auto advice giving forever? I know, I don't know what to say instead. And part of what we say is, I believe in you. Your gut instinct is good. I have no doubt that you're going to figure this out because you're the only one who can.

00:31:50:03 - 00:32:11:22
Terri Cole
But I'm here to support. So let me know how I can best support you, which is different. And this is the message, especially with children, that we want to give. Because if we're always we're so afraid of them failing that we rescue, we don't let them fail every time. We are constantly giving them the answer. We're literally in subtext saying, I don't think you can do it.

00:32:12:01 - 00:32:34:06
Terri Cole
I don't think you will make the right choice. So I have to make the right choice for you, and we're inadvertently centering everyone else's situation on us as the solution, which for me personally, it was so painful to realize because I really had thought of myself more like Mother Teresa. I was like, I'm just a lover. I just want to help all these people.

00:32:34:06 - 00:32:52:21
Terri Cole
I'm just so loving and in therapy to have this, the truth of my behavior be revealed through a situation where one of my sisters was in an abusive relationship, living in, a shack in the woods in upstate New York in the winter, with no running water and no heat with. She was an active alcoholic. He was a drug user and abusing her.

00:32:53:00 - 00:33:10:12
Terri Cole
I couldn't do anything else but think about how am I getting her out of there, right? That was my whole thing. I need to save her. I'm going to save her. And finally, I was crying and talking to my therapist, and I was like, what am I going to do? I've done everything. It's not working. And she said, Terry, what makes you think you know, would Jenna needs to learn in this life?

00:33:10:14 - 00:33:26:03
Terri Cole
And I was like, I think we can both agree she doesn't need to do it with a crackhead who beats her in the woods. And she was like, no, I can't agree because I'm not God, and I don't know, but do you know what's happening for you? And I was like, obviously no idea. So help. And she said, you've worked really hard to create a harmonious life.

00:33:26:07 - 00:33:42:02
Terri Cole
You've had a lot of therapy. Become a therapist, and your sister's dumpster fire is really messing with your peace, and you really want to have that be tied up in a neat bow so you can get back to your life. And I was like, but is that so wrong? And she's like, tell her it's the I'm not telling you you shouldn't save Gina.

00:33:42:05 - 00:33:59:18
Terri Cole
I'm telling you, you can't. Like it's literally not possible. And what you're really doing by sending her money and all the things you're doing is you're probably prolonging her staying in this situation because she's not reaching the rock bottom, that she would that would motivate her to leave. So she taught me about boundaries. I told my sister, hey, I can't talk to you about this anymore.

00:33:59:18 - 00:34:14:13
Terri Cole
I love you and I cannot listen to you talking about this abusive situation. But if you ever want to leave, I will always be your person. And like nine months later, she was like, are you still my person? I was like, of course I am. I went and got her. She got sober, you know, there's a whole thing.

00:34:14:13 - 00:34:34:15
Terri Cole
But what we rob, people love when we think it's our job, right? If I had, quote unquote saved her, she's her baby sister. Saving her. Does nothing for her self-esteem. It makes her feel like crap. Instead, she got to save herself, get sober, and got all of the self-confidence that comes from that experience. So inadvertently, we're robbing people of the experiences they need to have.

00:34:34:19 - 00:34:37:07
Terri Cole
And we were mistaking it for love. At least I was.

00:34:37:09 - 00:35:00:15
Lisa Sonni
I think that's very common in these, you know, in, in a lot of these situations. Absolutely. Tell me where you see this kind of show up, where maybe the person wouldn't have been considered high functioning codependent, broadly speaking, throughout their life, but in an abusive relationship, they sort of become this, okay, do you see it as sometimes it can be conditioned from a relationship?

00:35:00:18 - 00:35:23:14
Terri Cole
Yeah, especially if you're a conflict avoidant, especially if you're a people pleaser. You can be taught that to avoid negative feedback, have dinner ready at six or do what this person wants like you can, especially if you get sucked into a relationship with the narcissist. Because we know there's this beginning of the relationship. There's a love bombing, there's the world when of like, well, this is too good to be true.

00:35:23:15 - 00:35:46:17
Terri Cole
Which of course, hello, it is. But then we're now chasing that high. We're chasing that. What it was like were, were chasing that person that they never really were and they're never, ever going to actually be. But what we're really doing is we want to avoid the negative feedback and it's it can become your whole life. And that is instead of responding, that's us endlessly reacting.

00:35:46:17 - 00:36:06:12
Terri Cole
How what can I do to avoid this person's wrath or this person's rejection or this person's judgment? So I do feel like it can be conditioned. It can also be, you know, in the book in Too Much. I write about your high functioning codependency blueprint, meaning like, what are the things that happen in your life, in your family of origin?

00:36:06:16 - 00:36:35:15
Terri Cole
You may be an HFC, as we call it, from a long line of HFCS, right? if you learned in your home that, like you said, your partner, your husband hands you the paperwork and you do it because that's your position, that's your job, that's your value. you've come by it honestly. But why, I ask you all of these very specific questions when you're breaking down your HFC blueprint is because we're taking information from the basement, which is your subconscious mind, and we're bringing it up to the main part of the house.

00:36:35:18 - 00:36:57:05
Terri Cole
So you can say, like, that's how it was for my folks, or that's how it was for people who came before me. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's how it has to be for me. I had to reject in my own family of origin, there was kind of a lot of male bashing. My parents got divorced, there was a whole thing, and I had to consciously reject, like men are inferior and have faith.

00:36:57:08 - 00:37:18:21
Terri Cole
I could meet someone who I could really be friends with and partner with and want to be intimate with and all of those things. But it was scary because I was sort of I was getting excommunicated a little bit from the group to change my mind, and they dealt with it and it was okay. But this is stuff that if we don't consciously find it, look for it and question it, it just becomes our lives and we're like, oh, this is just life.

00:37:18:21 - 00:37:24:18
Terri Cole
This is just relationships. But that's not necessarily true. We actually have a lot of choices that sometimes we may not be aware of.

00:37:24:20 - 00:37:56:06
Lisa Sonni
I know especially in an abusive relationship, honestly, even with a family member, but I suppose, I mean, a partner. And in the context that I work in, I'm normally thinking of a woman who is the victim of abuse and the man who's the perpetrator, though I recognize that's not always the case, but it's a there's a safety factor sometimes, you know, so it's codependency might not feel like the right, I don't know, label for, for some people because they could be hit killed, screamed at, abandoned all these feelings, you know, and it's truly unsafe.

00:37:56:06 - 00:38:16:22
Lisa Sonni
And I want to separate those two things because that's kind of a different, a different level of this. But I love this. I, you know, how to just show up differently with people who are at least not straight up abusive, not unsafe, meaning you're at physical risk. But I know there's a lack of emotional safety and a lot of these relationships, so it's terrifying to stop being codependent.

00:38:16:22 - 00:38:24:18
Lisa Sonni
And then people are going to abandon you or reject you, or it makes you selfish. It makes you a bad person. In your mind. You have that belief. It's hard.

00:38:24:21 - 00:38:41:18
Terri Cole
Or they may say that, right? Like when you think about it, Doctor Harriet Lerner talks about relationships as dancers, and it's like, I do this and you do that when you start to get into recovery from being a high functioning codependent or codependent, you're changing your dance moves, and the people you dance with are going to notice.

00:38:41:21 - 00:39:10:21
Terri Cole
So expect that they'll be pushback and remind yourself that you are not that fragile. And again, as Lisa said before, we're making a direct line distinction between being in a relationship that might be difficult, that might be unsatisfying, that might not be what you want it to be, and a relationship where there's any danger. So if there's danger, then everything you do has got to be with your safety as your top priority. Yeah. And

00:39:10:21 - 00:39:33:17
Terri Cole
I understand being trauma bonded. And I know people are like, well, just get out. Like it's so easy and I know that it's not. But I also know being a psychotherapist for almost 30 years, that it's possible to and that there are lots of ways that you can slowly but surely make a safe exit plan. I actually have something on my website and I've done a podcast. How to safely leave an Abusive relationship.

00:39:33:17 - 00:39:54:17
Terri Cole
I've got 800 videos on YouTube. I've got ten years worth of the podcast, like I have a million free resources, for anyone who needs them. But the most important thing if you are in a dangerous situation is that you do not broadcast what your intention is so that everything you do, you keep it super, super tight. Don't tell a lot of people,

00:39:54:20 - 00:40:23:19
Terri Cole
maybe only tell one trusted person. Get legal advice. If you are legally, entangled with this person, whether you're married or whether you own things together like you have to be incredibly, aware of the danger. And people abuses, of course, become more dangerous, especially as they energetically feel like They're losing their grip. So you really don't want to start asserting boundaries about things that don't matter, especially if you have a plan to leave it, sort of like leave the status quo.

00:40:23:21 - 00:40:45:07
Terri Cole
Yes, slowly. But surely. I was just interviewing someone yesterday. She was talking about her best friend. It took a year and then she had her go bag. He was out. She could do it. And like she had everything in place to go secret, to block him everywhere, to like there's a whole way of doing it. But if you're listening and you feel alone and you're in that situation, there are so many resources to help you

00:40:45:13 - 00:41:05:06
Terri Cole
and I understand the fear it might make sense to buy a second phone. And maybe that's the one that you call a helpline with. Like there's disposable phones that are not that expensive. Like really, really think about yourself. What do you want for yourself? You might have children and there's so many, places where there's support to do it, but I think that distinction is really important.

00:41:05:08 - 00:41:25:22
Terri Cole
So don't feel like, well, I'm weak because I can't set boundaries with this person or I can't stop anticipating their needs. No, you're doing what you need to do to stay out of harm's way to the best of your ability, and that is righteous. That is important, and that is your job, especially if you have kids. But you don't deserve to be abused.

00:41:26:00 - 00:41:55:07
Terri Cole
so be clear that next right action after next right action. Don't think further. Don't think that you're behind. Just next right action after next right action. And you can know something like I know for sure, I need to get the fuck out of here and still not do anything right. So I say this because the denial that people put themselves in so much of my therapy practice, in my groups and my courses is because they fear that if I know it, then I must change it right now.

00:41:55:11 - 00:42:29:00
Terri Cole
So what I say is you can know it and do nothing, but I want you to have your eyes wide open for yourself when it's just you and you. You know, if you're an abusive relationship, you know, if you should get out, even if you can't right now. No shame, no judgment. Right. But the knowing is very important because once we sort of admit to ourselves, like, hey, this is not sustainable, somewhere energetically you're putting your stake in the ground and you're inviting the universe to conspire in your favor to figure this out.

00:42:29:00 - 00:42:37:09
Terri Cole
And I've helped zillions of women do it. And I know that Lisa does as well, and that you can figure it out just one next right action at a time.

00:42:37:12 - 00:42:59:13
Lisa Sonni
I love that, like what a what an absolutely perfect thing to say. I know, you know, I appreciate any therapist who understands trauma bonding and the difficulties because, you know, maybe it's not therapists that are using the just leave kind of language, although sometimes. But it is hard. But don't practice these things in that relationship. But you can still get this book.

00:42:59:16 - 00:43:23:23
Lisa Sonni
You can still learn about high functioning codependency. You can still learn about better boundaries and practice them with other people. If you're out with the abuser and start learning about it because you're building this ability, you're flexing that muscle to be able to leave and you have to start somewhere. People always ask, you know, can I eat? Well, in my case, break a trauma bond, but can I break a trauma bond while I'm still in the relationship?

00:43:24:04 - 00:43:47:17
Lisa Sonni
It's a little bit harder. But yes, you can learn better boundaries in a relationship too. You just can't necessarily practice them with that person. But we all know lots of people, so practice it with someone a little bit more safe. And then yes, you start to build up that confidence like, hey, I deserve this. And I can tell you, obviously you know this too. From personal experience, it feels so good to say no sometimes in the most kind way.

00:43:47:17 - 00:44:04:09
Lisa Sonni
Just I don't have the capacity for that. I can't actually take that on. I have faith that you can figure this out. I love that, and even the framing of it is such a positive thing for other people to not take their power away from them by acting like you're the most necessary piece of the puzzle. Right?

00:44:04:14 - 00:44:32:16
Terri Cole
And it's a relief because the liberation that comes from being like, wow, this is my side of the street and that is someone else's side of the street. I thought I had to clean the whole neighborhood, so I only have to worry about what is actually my responsibility. Wow, that is such a lightning of the load. And this is where now you'll have more bandwidth to be able to have more self consideration, self-care, daily acts of self-care that really will fill up your bucket in a different way

00:44:32:16 - 00:44:39:14
Terri Cole
because most HFCS, when we're active, we're just existentially exhausted emotionally and physically. Gosh, that's true.

00:44:39:18 - 00:45:01:07
Lisa Sonni
The exhaustion. Oh man, that's a whole other episode. I tell you. This is just. I felt so real. I felt like I lost 280 pounds when I escaped my abusive relationship. I suddenly, you know, you have one less child to take care of in many ways. So it's nice to step into feeling independent, feeling like you can take care of yourself.

00:45:01:07 - 00:45:07:09
Lisa Sonni
And it's not necessary to take care of everyone around you and do everything. Give yourself a break. That's that's the.

00:45:07:13 - 00:45:08:06
Terri Cole
Place.

00:45:08:06 - 00:45:29:02
Lisa Sonni
That's the message. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. And I really hope that people read your books, because I hear anytime you bring up the word codependency. Oh yeah, I've read Codependent No More, like it's the only book. And again, no shade to the book or the author. I'm just saying there's so much other content out there, and I really, really want people to read too much.

00:45:29:02 - 00:45:48:18
Terri Cole
Yes, I love it. Also, if people want to, if they're trying to figure out their boundaries, I have a free boundary quiz that people love. I think I've had 80,000 people go through it. So just go to boundary quiz.com and it'll tell you what your archetype is. And then I have a whole video telling you things that you can do to have better boundaries. Based on your answers to

00:45:48:18 - 00:46:09:23
Terri Cole
it's only 13 questions, but it's actually a very effective quiz. Making a quiz is way harder than I thought it was. I did it a bunch of years ago, but it took about a year to make the quiz actually work. And I also do have that course, that the the high functioning codependency course that is starting and people can get that information if they're interested at TerriCole.com/BTC for break the cycle.

00:46:10:02 - 00:46:17:16
Lisa Sonni
Amazing. I'm going to link all of that in the description to make it really easy for people to access you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate this conversation.

00:46:17:19 - 00:46:20:22
Terri Cole
Thank you so much for your work and thank you for having me.

00:46:21:00 - 00:46:30:10
Lisa Sonni
If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:46:30:12 - 00:46:34:14
Music
Stronger than before.