Toxic vs Abusive Relationships: The Difference Most People Miss with Dr. Marina Rosenthal | S3EP11

Couples therapy is not the place to sort out coercive control. Full stop. But I also get why women end up there anyway, because when your relationship is messy, you’re trying to name what’s happening. Is it stress. Is it trauma. Is it aggression. Is it abuse. And when you’re living inside it, it can all blur.

I sat down with Dr. Marina Rosenthal, psychologist, couples therapist, and sex therapist with a background in trauma psychology and violence against women research, to talk about that murky middle. The high conflict stuff that feels awful, the dynamics that get minimized as “just communication,” and the moments that get used to confuse you even more.

We break down why language matters, why “abuse” gets debated while behaviors get ignored, and why asking “is it abuse?” often isn’t the most useful starting point. We talk coercive control, sexual coercion, threats, weaponized calm, the praise that keeps you in line, and the way power shows up through money, freedom, access, and the invisible consequences you learn to avoid.

We also go into Darvo, false equivalency, the trap of “you’re both toxic,” and what actually helps you assess safety without getting stuck in labels. Real talk, lots of nuance, but still clear. You’re not crazy for being confused. Confusion is part of the system.

Dr. Marina also shares where to find her free resource “Red Flags and Red Lines” to help you figure out whether couples therapy is even safe to attempt.

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:08:17
Unknown


00:00:17:09 - 00:00:38:22
Speaker 2
Couples therapy is not appropriate where there is coercive control. That is my view, full stop. But I also understand that when you're experiencing negative things in your relationship, or maybe it's abuse, maybe it's toxic, maybe they're avoidant. You know, we want to sort of figure out is this abuse, is this stress, is this trauma, is this aggression?

00:00:38:23 - 00:01:04:09
Speaker 2
And I think what I often see is the difficulty in people assessing that for themselves, but also a gap in clinicians and therapists being willing to have these conversations. There's something I saw on Instagram that was so interesting, talking about this kind of gray area between aggression and abuse. And it sort of piqued my interest. And so I would love to take this opportunity to introduce my guest, who is an expert in these things.

00:01:04:09 - 00:01:10:02
Speaker 2
And so I want to have you just introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about you, and then let's get into this really interesting conversation.

00:01:10:05 - 00:01:32:04
Speaker 3
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm Dr. Marina Rosenthal. I'm a psychologist and couples therapist and sex therapist, and I work entirely with couples. I have a book forthcoming in about a year. That is on the topic of high conflict relationships. And so that's really that middle, murky area on a spectrum between healthy and completely abusive that you're talking about.

00:01:32:04 - 00:01:37:23
Speaker 3
And that's that's my work. That's who I speak to on the social media and in my upcoming book.

00:01:38:03 - 00:02:00:15
Speaker 2
I feel like, you know, some people feel like, you know, aggression and abuse are synonyms. I think that from where I sit, being a content creator, in addition to being a coach, I get a lot of people that are, you know, you women throw the word abuse around all the time, you know, and actually, even I had a recent comment from someone saying that, like, it makes no sense that women just get to decide what's abuse

00:02:00:15 - 00:02:36:10
Speaker 2
he doesn't agree with his wife's definition of abuse. And so she says that he's abusive and he says he's not. And it's not fair that she just gets to decide that, which is alarming behavior right off the bat. Right. But I think there's a real danger in misidentifying power dynamics. And I think, you know, I want to highlight, even for my audience, that this is a tough conversation or a tricky conversation that you and I are going to try to navigate here, because I don't want people to think, well, maybe it's just aggression, and we don't want people to think who are maybe experiencing some toxic behavior and aggression to just automatically label it abuse.

00:02:36:10 - 00:02:44:04
Speaker 2
It's a tough conversation. It's tough to know, Maybe a good first question, even is what's the difference in your mind? What's the difference between aggression and abuse?

00:02:44:05 - 00:03:13:22
Speaker 3
it's such an important question. And I guess something I could have added in my intro is although, you know, I'm a couples therapist and that's my work currently, my background is in trauma psychology and violence against women research. And so that's sort of my roots and in many ways where I'm still grounded, even though I'm working in a different capacity and something that we know from, that body of research, from research on, abuse, assault, all the different types of interpersonal harm that can happen is that it really matters how you ask the question.

00:03:14:02 - 00:03:30:17
Speaker 3
How you ask somebody about their experiences is going to determine the type of answer you get and whether somebody identifies that something harmful is happening. And so abuse is a colloquial term. It's not a bad term. I use it, you're going to hear me say abuse a bunch of different times. You know, I'm sure in the next minutes.

00:03:30:18 - 00:03:57:03
Speaker 3
And so there's nothing wrong with saying abuse. It's not like a bad word. It's just colloquial. It's not specific. And when you ask more specific questions, when you ask people about specific types of behaviors that they might be experiencing in their relationship, you get more people able to self identify that bad things are happening to them. And so that's why I say language matters, is that when we ask the question in a different way, rather than saying, is it abuse?

00:03:57:07 - 00:04:19:03
Speaker 3
If we ask questions about specific types of aggression, specific types of control, specific types of coercion, manipulation, sexual abuse that are happening will ultimately get a better answer as to who is having these experiences. It's better, identification. It's like a better test. So that's one of the reasons why I just like, sort of backing up, like, why does it even matter what language we use?

00:04:19:03 - 00:04:25:00
Speaker 3
Well, it just matters because it helps people identify what type of situation there. So I want to just just kind of start there.

00:04:25:04 - 00:04:50:06
Speaker 2
I think that's so great to start there because it to me, it's not necessarily subjective abuse if you look at it on its own as a definition, but I think that nobody wants to be told that they're abusive. That's it. It does feel awful, I'm sure to be to be told that you're abusive. So if you're asking questions about behavior, you might be able to uncover more than if you say, are you abusive to your partner or are you experiencing abuse?

00:04:50:06 - 00:05:10:20
Speaker 2
I think even from the survivor victim standpoint, a lot of people don't want to call it that for lots of reasons. You don't want to be a victim. You don't want to be in an abusive relationship. There's cognitive dissonance going on. I get why we would collectively kind of want to push back at that. What behaviors do you see that really kind of identify abuse specifically?

00:05:11:01 - 00:05:29:21
Speaker 3
Yeah. Well, the the big overarching bucket is going to be coercive control, which is, I think, something that you speak a lot about in, in your channel. So that's, you know, we could talk a lot more about what that looks like, but that's going to always be an immediate disqualifier of, oh, is this, just people who are heated, people having a bad fight,

00:05:29:21 - 00:05:47:08
Speaker 3
is it escalation? Is it mutual in some way when there is a pervasive dynamic of coercive control in which one person is systematically disempowered in the relationship, it's abuse. And again, abuse is a totally fine word to use. And I agree, I don't think it's a subjective word, it's just that people are using it in a lot of different ways.

00:05:47:08 - 00:06:11:16
Speaker 3
And so I like to be really specific so we know what we're talking about. So when I'm speaking about abuse, I'm either speaking about coercive control as an ongoing dynamic in which one person's autonomy, voice capacity to make choices for themselves is limited. And sometimes that doesn't resonate for people. Like, as we know, one of the tricky things about being embedded in an abusive situation is that you may not be able to self-identify, oh, this is bad.

00:06:11:16 - 00:06:33:18
Speaker 3
I'm being harmed. When that doesn't resonate, some of the more specific behaviors that are never gray, that are never going to be kind of like nuanced and oh, well, maybe it could be, things like sexual aggression of any kind, sexual coercion of any kind. That's something that just doesn't happen in non abusive relationships. Any sort of threats on your life, use of a weapon.

00:06:33:23 - 00:06:53:08
Speaker 3
There's some things that happen in escalation. There's some things that just should never happen full stop. And so those are always going to be complete. Disqualifier is that a relationship could remotely be safe? Serious injuries are in that bucket too. If you're getting physically hurt, even if you're saying, well, I don't feel controlled, you are being controlled because you're being physically hurt.

00:06:53:08 - 00:07:14:10
Speaker 3
You're not actually okay. You're not actually it's safe. So there's some things that, the presence of them is just like an immediate like do not past go indicator, but more broadly, coercive control, which does not have to be physical, does not have to leave any sort of injury. Is the differentiation between a potentially escalated, not healthy, toxic dynamic,

00:07:14:10 - 00:07:20:08
Speaker 3
the two people are participating in versus a dynamic or one person is being abused.

00:07:20:11 - 00:07:40:00
Speaker 2
Coercive control to me was one of the trickiest things because actually, remember, I was recording a video and I was telling someone I was not controlled. I experienced all the abuse you could possibly imagine, but he really wasn't controlling. And then I described something, and the psychologist that I was talking to was like, you know, that control, right?

00:07:40:04 - 00:08:03:04
Speaker 2
Oh, it's because picturing right control. Like, you can't go there, you can't wear your hair that way. even, you know, more subtle coercive control. But what I was actually experiencing was I could go anywhere, I could do anything. But I had this sort of base level praise constantly. I was the good partner, the good woman. He was always sort of like, I love that.

00:08:03:04 - 00:08:30:06
Speaker 2
I know where you are. I love that, you know, it was a reinforcement of good behavior on his part. So it actually did control me because I was seeking approval. And if I didn't behave in the good girl way that he wanted, there were consequences. Not yeah, not physical abuse. Right. Just some general pipssy-ness or stonewalling or, you know, upsetting me the next day or waking me up at ridiculous hours or just something.

00:08:30:06 - 00:08:35:19
Speaker 2
There was a consequence. So I didn't actually identify it until years later because it was that covert to me. Yeah.

00:08:35:19 - 00:08:54:19
Speaker 3
I mean covert is a really good word. And I think most people first of all our brains protect us. So we don't want to believe things like I'm being controlled. That's an upsetting thing to think. And again that's why behavioral indicators of abuse are so important to talk about because you know we're using this term coercive control. Like oh yeah sure.

00:08:54:19 - 00:09:13:08
Speaker 3
You know what that means. And it sounds like you had this experience with someone being like well yeah but that's what that is, right? And so having that be very clear and upfront of like, well that's what that is. Here are the ways that coercive control shows up, the ways that it might look, that's just going to be so important for assessment and identification of safety.

00:09:13:10 - 00:09:31:14
Speaker 3
Of course if you feel controlled, that's also a really big red flag. But it is really important to put out there that, like, you may not feel controlled, you may feel like I can safely do things, but what happens when I do something that isn't my partner's preference? It doesn't have to be that they physically harm you.

00:09:31:14 - 00:09:48:08
Speaker 3
It could be that they, don't let it go, that their mood is terrible till you, like, take it back till you apologize in a very specific way that there's sudden silence. When you don't comply with a certain expectation or imposed standard. It can look a lot of different ways.

00:09:48:12 - 00:10:03:03
Speaker 2
And those things in your definition are pretty clear cut, abusive ness if you are, you know, like afraid of your spouse coming home and you're suddenly frantically cleaning and making sure everything's perfect, that's probably at least a sign of coercive control.

00:10:03:07 - 00:10:17:19
Speaker 3
Absolutely. Yeah. Barring that, there's some other I mean, you know, some people have other mental health conditions that might explain that. But barring those types of explanations, that is a very clear indicator of control of abuse.

00:10:17:21 - 00:10:47:19
Speaker 2
Glad. So. Sexual coercion, coercive control. Perfect. What about some of the more? I mean, one could say ambiguous things like yelling, swearing, escalation. Some of those behaviors, you know, like name calling, or even some avoidant behaviors. What do you. Yeah, those, those feel like and I know maybe we've agreed to sort of hate the term gray area, but I think that those would classify almost sort of in that category. If I see clients feel the most confused by some of those behaviors.

00:10:48:00 - 00:10:48:10
Speaker 2
Yes.

00:10:48:14 - 00:11:12:05
Speaker 3
That's because they're confusing. And because context is their will determine the meaning of those behaviors. So I think we have to first say there are different types of relationships, right? Not all relationships are the same. Not all abusive relationships all the same are the same. Not all healthy, high conflict, whatever you want to call it. People have different relationships, and so we can't apply like one template and expect it to fit every single partnership on the planet.

00:11:12:10 - 00:11:29:07
Speaker 3
Some couples, when they fight, yell at each other, or say harsh things I don't want to say, like, you know, cruel or the worst things imaginable, but like, say harsh things. And that can be in the context of a relatively healthy, safe relationship. Now, as a couples therapist would, I prefer that people weren't yelling at each other? Yes.

00:11:29:07 - 00:11:51:00
Speaker 3
If I see a couple and it's like I was screaming at each other, we're going to address that, right? That's a concern. But in the context of an otherwise safe relationship, yelling one time probably isn't indicative of abuse. But in the context of a relationship where there's a power and control dynamic, yelling is a way to enforce that dynamic, to regain and maintain power.

00:11:51:05 - 00:12:22:10
Speaker 3
And so that's why understanding context is so important. And this is really kind of like heady and academic almost. And that's why it's so hard to self-assess. It's why it's so hard to figure out what is my situation. Because what is what is your context? What is your situation. But yeah, the context is what matters. And as a couples therapist, when I'm assessing relationship safety, I'm doing something called the super like academic nerdy way to put it, but called functional analysis, which is basically looking at how are the behaviors that are happening functioning and in what context are they happening.

00:12:22:10 - 00:12:48:23
Speaker 3
So it's not is they're yelling. It's what does the yelling do when one person yells? Is it scary for their partner? Does their partner say, okay, sorry, sorry, I'm so sorry and back away? Does their partner fear for their life, for their physical safety? Yelling means different things to people in different bodies. I mean, that's something in terms of talking about heterosexual couples that I do a lot of education with men around of like, yeah, you're not scared when she yells at you because you know, she's not going to hurt you.

00:12:48:23 - 00:13:05:04
Speaker 3
She doesn't know that. And so you yelling at her has completely different meaning than her yelling at you. We're not going to treat it the same. I'm not saying she should yell at you, but we're going to treat it as though it has different meaning because it does. And so that functional analysis of like, what is the actual function of this behavior?

00:13:05:04 - 00:13:09:20
Speaker 3
What is it doing? What does it mean is at the root of how I think about these things.

00:13:09:23 - 00:13:24:12
Speaker 2
that matters so much. Now context gets flipped, right? I think what's interesting is I, in my mind, as you were describing that, kind of went to the scenario of like, so you're telling me my brain just goes to the voice of an abusive man immediately? So you're telling me that she can yell at me, but I can't yell at her?

00:13:24:12 - 00:13:33:04
Speaker 2
Typical. Right? And then you're a therapist agreeing with her and taking her side. I could see that going south so fast.

00:13:33:06 - 00:13:52:06
Speaker 3
If that's abusive. If it's abusive, and that's a great test, actually, that's like a fantastic test, because men who aren't abusing their partners care that they're scaring their partners and they want to stop. And and so that's something that if I say, hey, when you yell, you scare her. When she yells, she hurts your feelings, but you're not scared. You just told me that

00:13:52:07 - 00:14:07:21
Speaker 3
I'm telling both of you, please don't yell during conflict. Right? We're going to work on all kinds of alternate strategies. Here's our plan. Like, I'm not just saying stop. I'm saying here's how you're going to stop. But if his response in this situation is, well, that's a double standard, she gets to yell at me and you're saying it doesn't matter.

00:14:08:01 - 00:14:10:15
Speaker 3
That's a big red flag. I don't I don't like that answer.

00:14:10:18 - 00:14:31:19
Speaker 2
What about the part where he's claiming fear? I'm sure we can both agree that it's not that no man could ever be afraid of a woman who's yelling. That's not what either of us are saying. But in this context, it's like, I mean, you're not psychic, of course, but can you tell, do you think if he's not really afraid, but he's just saying he's afraid to create a false equivalency so that he he can make it a double standard?

00:14:31:23 - 00:14:51:02
Speaker 3
I think it's really tricky because all versions happen. In the answer to that, some men really are afraid, but not because there's actual danger. That's a thing that can happen, right? You can be subjectively afraid, but actually not be in danger. I'm sure we've all had that experience in, you know, on a roller coaster or whatever. Right? So that's one option.

00:14:51:02 - 00:15:11:08
Speaker 3
He could be genuinely afraid and there is harm being done and, you know, maybe abuses going in the other direction. That happens. Women do abuse men. It happens. Right. It could be that, he's using that as an excuse, right? That this is essentially a DARVO tactic that this is a denial. No, you're not the one who is being hurt.

00:15:11:08 - 00:15:30:14
Speaker 3
You're the one hurting me, reversing that victim in offender role so all things can be true. It's my job to assess based on the context, based on the personality, based on the mental health indicators, based on, how someone is managing themselves in the room with me and presenting themselves and managing my impression of them and all of these, you know, fine grained things.

00:15:30:14 - 00:15:34:11
Speaker 3
It's my job to assess, like, is this a risk or is this a tactic

00:15:34:11 - 00:15:54:00
Speaker 2
essentially. you have such a unique experience as compared to what I do because I'm speaking to victims and survivors and you're speaking to couples. I'm hearing stories through her lens. Something I see a lot of women do is sort of, okay, Lisa, I want to be fair. So I'm going to tell you all the nice things about him because he's not in the room to defend himself.

00:15:54:00 - 00:16:09:17
Speaker 2
Right. So, that's the immediate position. he's not here to say his side. So I'm going to say his side. He says this, this and this about me. And he believes this, that and the next thing. And he's really nice to me. He's not all bad. So I think that I'm just making it up. He tells me that I'm being ridiculous.

00:16:09:17 - 00:16:37:01
Speaker 2
He tells me. And I'm hearing coercive control and invalidation and things that I'm identifying as truly abusive behaviors. These are ongoing patterns. They're describing this over years. So I'm hearing it. And in their best effort to make him look less abusive or not abusive, he still looks pretty abusive. From where I sit, I'm not here to, you know, again, call people abusers, but I deal with what victim or survivor is sharing with me and we help process that.

00:16:37:04 - 00:17:03:15
Speaker 3
And you can call this behavior abusive. You can say that a behavior is abusive behavior. And it's interesting because in terms of, you know, kind of going through trauma psychology lens, the making excuses for like, I just want to say his side because he's not here and it's not fair to him. And a lot of ways is really good data about the direction of abuse, because that's not something that an abusive partner does when they get someone one on one to share their side, typically

00:17:03:15 - 00:17:22:11
Speaker 3
right. Of course, some people are super sophisticated. I don't want to bar that. But like most typically abusive partners don't get that one on one time and say, like, listen, I want to be really fair to my spouse. Here's all the ways that they are showing up. And you know that I need to give them credit. And here's their concerns about me, which I take really seriously.

00:17:22:14 - 00:17:41:08
Speaker 3
That's just very atypical. And so the fact that the folks you're working with are thinking through that lens is very consistent with somebody being abused. Right. And so that's where that trauma psychology lens and understanding what someone in an active abuse situation presents and speaks like is so important. As a couples therapist.

00:17:41:08 - 00:18:07:07
Speaker 2
absolutely right. And I think that it says something. It says that to me that this is a traumatized person who actually cares about their spouse and they're trying so hard to, you know, play fair. And it strikes me because I know that feeling of wanting to present something that's fair and you're not sabotaging or slandering your partner, because in abusive relationships, we're always told, you know, don't go around telling people all these bad things that your spouse does.

00:18:07:12 - 00:18:26:05
Speaker 2
But I think that while that's on one hand, good advice, you know, don't slander your your spouse seems like pretty good advice. It's not slander. And you might just be expressing yourself to friends and letting people know what the dynamic of your relationship is like. I'm not asking people to make social media content about it, but tell your sister, be honest with your therapist.

00:18:26:07 - 00:18:49:22
Speaker 3
Absolutely. That's I mean, rules. The way I tend to put this is your partner has a right to expect privacy about things like their mental health, their own trauma history, intimate details about them. Your partner does not have a right to expect privacy about how they treat you. That is not private. And if you share that with your support network, you are not violating the privacy of your relationship.

00:18:50:00 - 00:19:08:22
Speaker 2
Slandering me to everyone we know, I can just, like I see these patterns so much. You know, I speak to so many women and fundamentally there's so many similar patterns in the men that they're describing. The behaviors are so clear, and I know that they're trying to process a lot. But the cognitive dissonance, I think, obviously, is one of the things that makes it so hard.

00:19:09:02 - 00:19:26:01
Speaker 2
They don't want to accept that it's abuse. So they're sort of seeking other things to call it. And I'm fine to step away from that language. And as you are pointing out, okay, well, let's let's put the word aside. Let's talk about the behavior and let's talk about how you feel. Let's talk about the impact on you. Right.

00:19:26:03 - 00:19:44:11
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And at some point, even if someone's really reluctant to call it abuse and has a lot of block around that, if a relationship is severely harming you at some point we have to say, okay, well, let's not worry about what we call it. This isn't working. And maybe with time you'll come to see it as abusive.

00:19:44:11 - 00:20:05:17
Speaker 3
Maybe you won't. But staying in a relationship that's hurting you, at some point is not going to be a healthy choice. And so we can move toward that action even if somebody is really unwilling to, you know, accept that label. But I do think it can be a great wakeup call to kind of look through the concrete behaviors and be like, if a fly on the wall saw this conversation, these boxes would have been checked.

00:20:05:17 - 00:20:13:14
Speaker 3
That would indicate the presence of coercion, the presence of severe aggression, threats, manipulation those are all visible, like to the naked eye.

00:20:13:17 - 00:20:42:10
Speaker 2
Agreed. Totally agreed. Can you talk to me about this kind of, what I would call a role reversal in abusive people tend to be really good at convincing the victim that they're, in fact, the abuser. So lack of accountability, blame shifting, all that. But we seem to take that on. And in my own reading and learning about this, I find it really interesting that studies show men tend to externalize blame more, and women tend to internalize blame more.

00:20:42:12 - 00:21:05:05
Speaker 2
And insofar as I mostly deal with women, we take on this, this like, okay, maybe it's me, maybe I provoked him, maybe I'm actually the perpetrator of abuse or maybe I'm a narcissist. I mean, we don't need to even go that far, but to see themselves as the perpetrator and the abuser is really good at being very specific in the things that he'll accuse her of withholding sex.

00:21:05:10 - 00:21:23:11
Speaker 2
Right. She's abusing, she's controlling. Meanwhile, he'll skip the context that maybe he cheated and now she feels like she needs to monitor him a little bit, which, again, probably not a healthy behavior. I'm not advocating for that, but I'm just when you put it in the context, it's like, wait a minute. So do you ever see that or what's your take on that?

00:21:23:11 - 00:21:29:05
Speaker 2
Where where you can see that the victim is sort of struggling with seeing themselves as the perpetrator?

00:21:29:09 - 00:21:45:04
Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, it's it shows that it's working. Right. It's like the abuse tactic is abuse tactic. You know, my dissertation was on DARVO and that, you know, specific version of no, no, it didn't happen. But if it did happen, you're the one who did it. And this.

00:21:45:06 - 00:21:46:13
Speaker 2
Was really. Specific

00:21:46:13 - 00:22:24:18
Speaker 3
way of shifting blame and shifting the focus and and actually you're crazy and everyone knows you're crazy. And this whole pattern, it's not just mean or harsh or wrong, it's effective. And I think that's one of the things that's so important for anybody who's going to work with couples. And particularly couples who behave poorly, who engage in any type of aggression, is understanding that abuse tactics serve a purpose like they work. And so when you see somebody who has internalized the voice of their abuser, they're having the voice of those DARVO tactics play in their head. It's living rent free because that's what it was intended to do.

00:22:24:20 - 00:22:42:18
Speaker 2
There's a video that I made years ago, and it went wildly viral, and it was about DARVO, and it was actually the first video I ever made on that topic. And it was like two minutes long, not even a thing. But I realized it wasn't that it was DARVO It was the specific example of DARVO that I used, and I found it interesting.

00:22:42:21 - 00:23:05:09
Speaker 2
The example was a person who, like in this context, a woman found out by going through her partner's phone that he was in fact cheating on her, and then he immediately flipped it into, you invaded my privacy. I can't believe you do that to me. This is terrible. You. You don't trust me? She caught him cheating. Yeah, I wrote in the caption.

00:23:05:11 - 00:23:27:00
Speaker 2
Obviously I'm not condoning going through someone's phone. And of course a lot of the comments were, you know, if you feel the need to go through someone's phone, the relationship's already over. You know, you don't trust them. People, of course, want to remove the context of how hard it is to leave an abusive relationship, but the entire focus and what made the video go viral was the false equivalency of they're both bad.

00:23:27:05 - 00:23:48:11
Speaker 2
They both did something wrong. He shouldn't have cheated, but she shouldn't have gone through his phone. And I'm like, she shouldn't have caught him. For a victim who's been gaslit and and told, you know, you're making it up. I'm not cheating on you and called insecure and told that, you know, you're creating problems out of nothing, only to find out that she was right and he, in fact, was cheating on her.

00:23:48:12 - 00:23:55:08
Speaker 2
But the audience, obviously not the majority, but so many people really leaned right into that dhaval. Yes. Yeah,

00:23:55:09 - 00:24:19:12
Speaker 3
they latched on to the both people did something wrong and something I say it because that's a really common way people find out that there's cheating. Right? Is you have a gut feeling that something's wrong. You, you know, quote unquote, invade their privacy. You look, you find out you're right. And the way I often put that is it's like, you know, imagine that one person says, like you're a jerk and then the other person punches you in the face.

00:24:19:14 - 00:24:41:01
Speaker 3
It wasn't that nice of them to say you're a jerk, but then you punched them in the face. And now that's what we're going to talk about. That's going to be the central focus here. We're not going to talk about how they said you're you're mean or you're a jerk. These two things are not equal. And so the way I would think about this is it's like, yeah, in the context of a relationship where there's not betrayal going on, it's really problematic to invade your partner's privacy in this way.

00:24:41:01 - 00:24:55:23
Speaker 3
And more complicated can be part of the US. Right? So we don't always put that out there that like being surveilled and having your phone checked can be part of an abuse dynamic in the other direction. But if what you find is, oh yeah, they are cheating on me, we're not going to talk about the invasion of privacy.

00:24:55:23 - 00:25:08:16
Speaker 3
That that is not the point here. We have totally left that in the dust. When we found out that you're cheating, and acting like that should be the central theme of the conversation is an excellent example of DARVO

00:25:08:17 - 00:25:28:08
Speaker 2
I think so too. It was. It was it was an interesting experiment for me and it really seeing how many people would actually side with the perpetrator and lean into that false equivalency. But it's because I think a lot of people can't see the power dynamic. And I listen, there were also survivors in the comments that actively said, like, hey, I don't want anybody going through my phone.

00:25:28:08 - 00:25:47:06
Speaker 2
My ex used to do that, and that was so abusive. And to your point, I completely agree. I'm not saying that surveilling is good behavior. I'm saying that in the context of being gaslit and being told that you're crazy and insecure and you're making it up to then find out that you're not crazy, not insecure, and we're never making it up.

00:25:47:08 - 00:26:00:18
Speaker 2
We got to talk about the actual issue, because the going through the phone was a response to something. So let's talk about the something. maybe we talk about the going through the phone later. But I would I would argue not ever. That's not it just becomes no

00:26:00:18 - 00:26:01:03
Speaker 3
derail

00:26:01:03 - 00:26:01:13
Speaker 2
that.

00:26:01:17 - 00:26:20:07
Speaker 3
We talk about that in a totally different context. You know, where some people have relationship OCD and are incredibly fixated on what if my partner is cheating, what if my partner is cheating? And when that's identified as like an individual mental health concern, then that behavior has different meaning. And this harkens back to the whole point about like what is the function of the behavior?

00:26:20:07 - 00:26:37:06
Speaker 3
What is it doing? Is it a primarily personal anxiety that's not warranted in your context, or is it a completely warranted behavior, in which case like, yeah, we're not going to we're not going to talk about you violating their privacy because that, you know, turns out you need it to in order to protect your own health and safety.

00:26:37:11 - 00:26:57:11
Speaker 2
I know that part was really kind of skirted past, right? The the actual safety of someone being cheated on the sexual safety, that's just not relevant, apparently, in that, in that dynamic. But there's a power dynamic that I think is is very prevalent in these abusive relationships. They're sort of it's an automatic one person has more power than the other.

00:26:57:14 - 00:27:17:04
Speaker 2
But I also hear a lot of men who are the abuser say she's the one with all the power. And so then everybody's confused why I would I would argue the perpetrator is not actually confused, but playing confused. And the victim is in fact confused. How can someone even remotely begin to self-assess the power dynamic?

00:27:17:10 - 00:27:43:00
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's it's really difficult, right? I think looking at tangible access resources, support, capacity things that we can sort of like look at, like, okay, if I wanted to, you know, go buy myself something nice. Do I have the same freedom as my partner does to do that? Or is there a double standard that exists if I want to go for a night with my friends, do I have the capacity to do that?

00:27:43:02 - 00:27:59:03
Speaker 3
Do I have to check things that, like adults, typically get to decide on their own without input from a partner? Do I have to run them by my partner or else I'm in quote unquote trouble? Looking kind of concretely again, like that's always going to be where I go first is like, okay, well, where do we see power?

00:27:59:03 - 00:28:08:20
Speaker 3
We see power and money. We see power and access. We peak power and community and looking at like, what? What is my, like standing in those elements?

00:28:08:23 - 00:28:35:03
Speaker 2
That make sense? Now? I have had so many clients that are being financially abused, but they're in charge of the money, and so then they don't see themselves as being financially abused because in theory, she's responsible for the all the finances. Some have been stay at home parents and some have been working parents. But in both cases he is relinquishing all financial responsibility on to her.

00:28:35:03 - 00:28:54:12
Speaker 2
But when I sort of dig into that, because 99% of abusive relationships have some form of financial abuse. So I sort of look at these ones with a little bit more of a microscope. When someone relinquishes all finances onto you, you're responsible for everything that's not inherently abusive, right? The dynamic could be she's better at it or that's the agreement that you've made.

00:28:54:12 - 00:29:08:20
Speaker 2
Absolutely. But I think the question for me would then become, do you want that? Do you want all of the responsibility? Do you feel like that has just been like shirked to you? And even though you're responsible for it, can you freely spend within the family's budget?

00:29:09:02 - 00:29:27:18
Speaker 3
That's where my mind goes. Is that being responsible for labor is not the same thing as having power. And, you know, so that is like you could be a full time stay at home parent caring for your kids. That doesn't necessarily mean you have power in your household, right? That means you are doing labor. And in the same thing with money. You know,

00:29:27:18 - 00:29:48:23
Speaker 3
yeah, women do often take on the labor of finance management and even more like granular like budget management. Often we see women in charge of the like week to week, month to month budget and men in charge of long term planning, which is like a whole other conversation that we could have. But those are things that I'm interested in, right?

00:29:48:23 - 00:29:58:23
Speaker 3
Because it's like, is this actually just work? Is it like I've assigned you work? Or I've given you power and privilege and and trust? Those aren't the same thing.

00:29:59:01 - 00:30:11:08
Speaker 2
They're not. They can look similar. You know, I can't honestly think of some specific clients, but it's like. I can spend whatever I want again, within the family's budget. But if we're short this month. It's full

00:30:11:08 - 00:30:12:17
Speaker 3
back to me. Yeah. It's it's. Yeah.

00:30:12:17 - 00:30:13:04
Speaker 2
And it's like.

00:30:13:04 - 00:30:32:03
Speaker 3
Wait a minute. Spending was the bad spending. And it's like, no, we're all members of the household here. Yeah. And although it's not necessarily the prototype, I have seen abusive situations where an abused partner is the higher earner and bringing in more money, more resources to the family like that. That absolutely happens.

00:30:32:03 - 00:30:56:06
Speaker 2
Yes. That was my situation, in fact. And it was bizarre. I remember I would go to the bank, take out cash, go to Starbucks, buy a gift card and then use that for my Starbucks purchases because he would constantly tell me that I'm bankrupting us on my Starbucks addiction. And I remember going back and actually looking at the math and realizing I probably spend like $60 a month on Starbucks and it baffled me.

00:30:56:08 - 00:31:12:06
Speaker 2
Bankrupting. I made great money back then, I it was shocking to me. But now it's not shocking to me because it's just a way to get me to not have a latte, you know, like, not for the simple pleasure and feel like I'm not autonomous with my own money. It's crazy.

00:31:12:06 - 00:31:34:09
Speaker 3
Yeah. Removing joy is, absolutely a way to reinforce power or making joyful things. So complicated to get to that. Why bother? At the end of the day, don't get the latte. Because in order to do it, you have to jump through hoops. And certainly just the presence of feeling the need to go to the bank, get the cash by the gift card is such a strong indicator of an abuse dynamic, right?

00:31:34:09 - 00:31:37:14
Speaker 3
Like the fact that that's happening is super concerning on its own.

00:31:37:14 - 00:31:54:11
Speaker 2
I remember in a comment section, once I spend way too much time online, you can tell. But there was it was something about like the women that have to sort of like sneak into their houses with bags of clothes or wearing the new sweater they bought, rip the tag off and pretend that you've always had it because you're sneaking your stuff past your husband.

00:31:54:13 - 00:32:14:10
Speaker 2
I'm not saying that every single one of those situations is abuse, but I have to admit, my little spidey senses go off and I'm like, why can't you tell him you bought the sweater? Now men will say abusive men will just automatically decide, because women spend crazy amounts of money on clothes and are terrible with money when objectively, factually, that's not actually true.

00:32:14:14 - 00:32:31:18
Speaker 2
That's a myth and a trope that people sort of lean into. But I think that if you're hiding your expenses, that are basic things, again, if you do have a shopping problem, that's something to address. But if it's like you can never buy yourself a latte, you can never buy yourself a new sweater. But he's off spending money.

00:32:31:21 - 00:32:36:14
Speaker 2
There's the power imbalance. So it's not about a sweater. It's about power. Yeah.

00:32:36:14 - 00:32:53:21
Speaker 3
And I think that, you know, we we don't have to make everything a feminist issue, but to make this one a feminist issue, you know, in a given couple, let's say if a woman spends more money on clothes, there's a reason for that. Women's experience in the world is much more governed by our appearance, and fashion for women literally changes faster.

00:32:53:21 - 00:33:23:02
Speaker 3
And so to stay looking current, we're living within a power structure already, right? And so if you have a partner who can't see that and isn't willing to be like, well, yeah, you do spend a bit more on clothes than me, but it makes sense because the standards are different for you than spending a very normal amount of money that's within your budget. Again, isn't putting your family at any kind of risk is going to be framed as some sort of terrible act, when in fact it's a very reasonable response to kind of like a messed up societal situation that we're all in.

00:33:23:03 - 00:33:44:18
Speaker 2
This leads me back to this kind of thought about how this language and videos that can be in therapy can be weaponized against survivors, abusers can really present like, but do you see, she's spending all our money. That's financial abuse. And flip that when it's not the context or hey, she's she's using weaponized incompetence because she doesn't keep the house.

00:33:44:18 - 00:33:59:17
Speaker 2
Exactly as I say. I want everything immaculate. Meanwhile, he's not willing to pick anything up. She has to. And they're both working. You know, it's it's the way that this can kind of be weaponized, the way that they can provoke a victim. I actually hate the term reactive abuse.

00:33:59:19 - 00:34:01:18
Speaker 3
I really hate. It. But we could talk about it. Oh, yeah.

00:34:01:21 - 00:34:23:03
Speaker 2
Loathe it. Don't you feel like that? That is it. I've done some of my own reading on this, and I. I am of the impression that the, the original usage of that phrase is that we're calling the reaction abuse in that it looks like abuse. I don't think we're necessarily meaning to label the victim an abuser, but the behavior is abusive.

00:34:23:03 - 00:34:42:01
Speaker 2
And I'm like, can we just call it a reactive response or a reaction? And or I mean, some people call it self-defense, but I'm like, that might be a little, legal terms, but you're responding to abuse and then you feel like, you know, see, she's crazy too. She screamed at me. She calls me names. She this, she that. And it's like, can we come back to the power dynamic?

00:34:42:05 - 00:34:47:05
Speaker 2
Do you think those two things just really, like, can't be separated? The power and the reaction.

00:34:47:08 - 00:35:07:15
Speaker 3
They can't be because, you know, like, I have young kids, right? But like, I am their mom and I make choices for them, and they can throw a tantrum, but I'm in control, right? Like, that's a power dynamic in the context of parenting. If I was like, you're really mean to me because you're screaming at me, and that's unacceptable, I would be ignoring the reality that I'm their mom and I'm in charge.

00:35:07:18 - 00:35:31:14
Speaker 3
If there's that type of hierarchy in an intimate relationship where there should not be a hierarchy, that is a problem, right? Like intimate relationships are intended to be mutual and relational and not hierarchical. And, yeah, we can't talk about behavior without context as to the power dynamic. It's it's why sort of circling back to the concept of reactive abuse, which I totally agree.

00:35:31:14 - 00:35:52:01
Speaker 3
I really don't like the term. There's not a term that I like. The research term is violent resistance. And I don't like that either. But because I think it's we're not only talking about violence. Violent is such a strong word. I just think there's a lot that's confusing about all of this language. And I am. If you spend any time on my internet corner, you will see I'm really anti jargon.

00:35:52:01 - 00:36:14:00
Speaker 3
I like using language. That is the plain English meaning is what we mean as much as possible, because I think any terminology can get misused, twisted, spun around. So I really try to avoid any type of psychological terminology, even stuff that I use philosophically within my practice. I don't use it in a public facing way, because I worry so much about how people are going to spin it.

00:36:14:00 - 00:36:35:19
Speaker 2
Yes. Yeah, I but I think that's probably what makes you so great at this is that you're you're careful. You care. I think that that's great. I know that, you know, abusers can present as very regulated, very reasonable and like, you know, willing to do the work and compromise and all those things. That makes it really confusing for I'm sure the therapist as well.

00:36:35:21 - 00:36:57:22
Speaker 2
But if you're if you're in a therapy setting, but also the victim of this abusive ness is commonly looked at or viewed as obvious, more overt. He's screaming, swearing. A lot of the things that we've talked about that if you are trained, you might go, well, that's obviously abuse. But then there's a lot of really covert abuse that happens where he's not yelling.

00:36:58:03 - 00:37:15:20
Speaker 2
He never calls you a name. He's not overtly controlling. I mean, even me, years into learning about abuse, still quite hadn't quite been able to identify that sort of. I don't know if it has a name, but I sort of call it like the good girl coercive control, the the praise to keep you in line. I hadn't really thought about that.

00:37:15:20 - 00:37:33:21
Speaker 2
So we're like, we're always learning. Even experts are learning things. It makes it really hard to kind of differentiate, I think for people, you know, to really understand what's happening to them when it's not obvious, when it's not. Yeah. Yelling how would you assess that. Like it's because I always tell people you kind of have to feel it.

00:37:33:21 - 00:37:39:00
Speaker 2
But it's not not all just the mood, the vibe. How how can people self-assess that.

00:37:39:05 - 00:37:59:06
Speaker 3
It's such you're I think, as unhelpful as it might be, I would say something very similar, which is like, yeah, vibe is huge and I and there's how would I assess it? It's a long list, right? Like there's a bunch of different things that I'm doing in the capacity of assessing a couple. That maybe we don't need to go go into all of them.

00:37:59:06 - 00:38:18:02
Speaker 3
But, you know, I think one thing that's really interesting is how someone like, what what is being presented externally versus what is happening in terms of subtext is something that I look at. Right? Like someone can say something in a really calm voice and sound really regulated, but like, let's pause and be like, what are you actually saying?

00:38:18:02 - 00:38:45:00
Speaker 3
What is being communicated here? What is the implication of what's being communicated? And in some cases, again, I would never recommend someone say this, but if you're shouting at your partner, screw you, you're terrible. And saying all these escalated things, that's hurtful in a lot of ways. It can be more hurtful and scarier if someone very calmly kind of like picks apart your character, but does it because they think it's good for you and then presents it as like, aren't you grateful that I offer this to you?

00:38:45:02 - 00:39:04:04
Speaker 3
Like, that can be way more chilling. And it doesn't look loud, it doesn't look overt in the same way. And so I'm really interested in when I'm assessing and interested in those, like how is someone managing their presentation versus what they're actually saying, like, are you actually saying terrible things about your partner, but you're saying them in a really polite way?

00:39:04:07 - 00:39:07:22
Speaker 3
We're going to talk about how you're saying terrible things about your partner. You're just saying it nicely.

00:39:08:00 - 00:39:30:10
Speaker 2
I love that, actually. And to be fair, that was my experience. It's why I didn't know that it was abuse. Now it got physical at one point. That was seven years later. So that wasn't obvious to me, of course, because these were isolated incidents that he had a reason for every time. But in that seven years where it was, you know, air quoting, just emotional and psychological abuse, it would be like, not everybody likes you.

00:39:30:10 - 00:39:36:15
Speaker 2
And that's, you know, that's just that's fine. You don't have to be offended by that. It's just the truth. You're an acquired taste. That's me.

00:39:36:15 - 00:39:38:03
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. Right. And to

00:39:38:03 - 00:39:39:11
Speaker 2
get it in your head. Yeah,

00:39:39:11 - 00:39:58:18
Speaker 3
it makes me think about, like, I don't love this term, but it makes me think about kind of like mean girl dynamics from middle school, say, and the way that relational aggression plays out among groups where it's not socially acceptable to hate each other or to say it, to use a swear word or whatever. Relational aggression. Yeah, can look a lot of different ways.

00:39:58:18 - 00:40:19:04
Speaker 3
And, some abusers have the I hate use the word sophistication because it implies something positive, but like the sophistication to use these tactics in a way that is less obvious if you just glance at it. But again, if you drill down and be like, oh, I'm saying, why is it that all of your jokes are about how I'm stupid?

00:40:19:06 - 00:40:24:21
Speaker 3
Like, why is it that all of your punchlines are about me and not you? That's data.

00:40:25:00 - 00:40:42:20
Speaker 2
I said that once. You just quoted me from my own relationship. Why are they always like, it's just a joke, but why are they always at my expense? You know, it was. And it's that. It's what kept me so confused. And then as I started to react to these things, which I know it's like reactive abuse, but it became this mutual.

00:40:42:22 - 00:41:01:06
Speaker 2
We're both bad. We're both. And I once had a friend say that, you know, like, well, you're both kind of mean to each other. And I'm like, he calls me names and puts me down overtly, covertly, or controls me. Like, at this point I had way and he had assaulted me at that point, like we were mean to each other, not friends with her anymore.

00:41:01:08 - 00:41:21:19
Speaker 2
But it was baffling. And I personally I am. If people say the word mutual abuse to me, I want to just throw my laptop into the street. I, I personally do not subscribe to mutual toxicity 100%. Yes. You know, reactive aggression. Sure. But abuse to me there's a power dynamic. One person has the power. I don't know if.

00:41:21:23 - 00:41:42:12
Speaker 3
I mean, it's it's interesting because it's hypothesized that this could exist, but most people haven't seen it. For this idea of mutual abuse, if that exists, it's very, very rare. I guess I'll say that, I have not seen a dynamic that I would classify as, like, mutually abusive. That's not something that I've personally seen. In, in the research language,

00:41:42:12 - 00:42:01:19
Speaker 3
sometimes coercive control is called intimate terrorism. And so like bidirectional intimate terrorism is something that's it's like hypothesized could theoretically exist on a subjective level. I think if we drill down and actually ask the question like, well, who holds the power, you're always going to have an answer to your point. Like there will always be an answer

00:42:01:23 - 00:42:16:19
Speaker 3
one person might subjectively feel, perhaps due to their own ego defenses, mental illness, that they are disempowered like an abusive person may honestly believe that because of their own pathology. But that doesn't mean that's the truth.

00:42:16:19 - 00:42:34:04
Speaker 2
Absolutely. And I think connecting to what we were talking about with this and we've agreed we hate the term, but reactive abuse, reactive response, whatever. Those are the moments that the abuser can point to and be like, see, it's both of us. And it's like, no, let's step back. That's why I said, let's look at the power of that, because I agree.

00:42:34:09 - 00:42:51:19
Speaker 2
And when I hear people say like, no, no, like I've seen mutual abuse, I bet you haven't. I bet you've seen a victim reacting, let's say, poorly, to being abused. Although I would ask, I don't know what a good reaction would be other than finding the capacity to leave the person. But yeah, you can't react well to abuse

00:42:51:19 - 00:43:03:23
Speaker 2
what is that? Compliance. Yeah. because someone is escalating because of their reaction. It doesn't mean that they're abusive. But then I can also see how an abuser would be like you say, you're reacting to me, I'm reacting to you. And they.

00:43:03:23 - 00:43:21:23
Speaker 3
Do. They do. And that's why I don't like the term because I, you know, my my job when I'm working with a couple is going to be to start sketching out that chain reaction and to look at, okay, well first this happens and then what's its effect. And then this happens and what's its effect and what's happening internally for each person in this moment.

00:43:22:03 - 00:43:40:09
Speaker 3
And you know, yeah, I don't have ESP, I can't immediately say here's what's happening. But with time it comes out, you know, with time and continued observation, it comes out that there's a direction, or it comes out that these are people who really struggle with emotion regulation. And outside of these really bad moments, feel completely safe with each other.

00:43:40:14 - 00:43:47:21
Speaker 3
And okay, then we can work with that. But, we need to get clear on whether that's what's happening before proceeding with couples therapy.

00:43:47:21 - 00:43:57:21
Speaker 2
Absolutely. I love that this has been such a great conversation. Tell me where people can find you. I know you have a lot of great resources and you work with couples. Where can we find you?

00:43:58:01 - 00:44:21:05
Speaker 3
Yeah, so easiest is probably my Instagram, which is Doctor Brain and Rosenthal. And I have a pinned post-it stitch. Generally, in case you're listening to this a long time from now, you should generally still see it. That is a kind of like very oversimplistic graphic of abuse versus high conflict. And if you comment on that post, it will send you an auto DM to a link to a free course that I offer, which is called red flags and Red lines.

00:44:21:05 - 00:44:39:07
Speaker 3
And it's a course that kind of outlines how to self-assess potentially before approaching a couples therapist. Is it actually safe for us to do couples therapy? Is there coercive control? And it's intended just as like a free resource for people to access to help them figure out, am I safe? And, so I just want to put that out there as an option.

00:44:39:09 - 00:44:49:00
Speaker 3
And I always say with the auto DM thing, like, you have to comment to get the reply in your inbox, but then you can immediately delete your comment if you're concerned about having, you know, a paper trail.

00:44:49:00 - 00:45:06:16
Speaker 2
That's amazing to know and makes total sense. So I really appreciate that I've taken that course. And it's it was really eye opening. So I really hope that people definitely check that out. Thank you so much for this great conversation. I appreciate your time, and I hope that everybody heads over to your page and follows you. Thank you so much.

00:45:06:21 - 00:45:08:15
Speaker 3
Thanks for having me.

00:45:08:17 - 00:45:18:03
Speaker 2
If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:45:18:05 - 00:45:22:07
Unknown
Stronger than before.