Why Narcissists Explode When You Set Boundaries | Bill Eddy on High Conflict Escalation | S4E1

You knew it was coming. Maybe not the exact moment, but you felt it building.

The tension in the room. The stillness before it broke. Your nervous system clocked it before your brain caught up.

That's pattern recognition, and there's a reason these conflicts follow a script.

Lisa sits down with Bill Eddy, lawyer, therapist, mediator, and co-founder of the High Conflict Institute, to break down exactly why escalation in high conflict relationships is predictable, what triggers it, and how it plays out differently across three distinct personality patterns.

Bill explains why setting a boundary isn't just uncomfortable for these people, it's experienced as a threat that requires a response. He covers how they move from verbal attacks to punishment to recruiting others into the conflict, why they see themselves as the victim even while causing harm, and what survivors consistently get wrong when they're in the middle of it.

One of the most important moments in this conversation is a simple reframe: escalation is not proof that you did something wrong. It's proof that the system was challenged. Once you understand that, everything shifts.

Resources mentioned:

• SLIC Solutions: Setting Limits and Imposing Consequences by Bill Eddy
• Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy
• High Conflict Institute: highconflictinstitute.com

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:08:17
Music


00:00:08:19 - 00:00:17:19
Lisa Sonni
This is Real Talk with Lisa Sonni Relationships Uncensored, the podcast they don't want you listening to.

00:00:17:21 - 00:00:41:00
Lisa Sonni
If you have ever felt like conflict with certain people, just kind of follow the same path. You always see the sort of predictable escalation. You know, you bring up a concern, you set a boundary, you say no, you stop over explaining something and suddenly everything escalates. The person just gets more mad. You see, you know, a crisis starts or blame starts or other people get pulled in.

00:00:41:03 - 00:01:09:21
Lisa Sonni
In many high conflict dynamics, this is what happens. It feels very scripted. And I want to talk about why this happens, how this happens if they know what they're doing. And my guest today is someone that I truly wanted to have this conversation with for a long time. Some books that I have read a long time ago that have been very helpful in my own journey. But he is a lawyer, a therapist, a mediator, and truly one of the leading voices in understanding high conflict personalities and conflict escalation patterns.

00:01:10:03 - 00:01:22:08
Lisa Sonni
So I'm so happy to have Bill Eddy here with me today, and I would love to kind of just kick this over to you. I know I've bragged about you a little bit, but I want to give you some space to introduce yourself, and tell everyone in your own words about the work that you do.

00:01:22:12 - 00:01:56:05
Bill Eddy
Okay, thanks. I'll let you do the breaking, and I'll just say what it is. But yeah. So first I was a social worker, became a therapist, a licensed clinical social worker, then became a lawyer because I really liked solving family conflicts in the legal setting and emphasized mediation. So all three of those have influenced me, and crossing over with them helped me really understand how I conflict personalities in legal disputes, especially in family law and divorce.

00:01:56:08 - 00:02:24:02
Bill Eddy
So I started realizing that patterns I saw as a therapist with mental health issues were showing up in court as high conflict, and I realized that high conflict feelings were talked about. But in my mind, they weren't high conflict families. There were high conflict individuals. Some families had one, some two, some three. And we needed to understand the individuals to be able to make a difference.

00:02:24:05 - 00:02:51:09
Bill Eddy
And so as a therapist, lawyer or mediator, it really helped me to manage, I think, and resolve disputes than divorces by understanding what's going on. So that's kind of my background covers about 40 years, their dozen years as a therapist, 30, well, 15 years in family court as a lawyer and 15 years doing mediation with some overlap of all three of these.

00:02:51:11 - 00:02:56:03
Bill Eddy
So it's about a 40 year career, and I hope I think I've learned something.

00:02:56:03 - 00:03:17:19
Lisa Sonni
Should you have? I once hosted an online webinar called Emotionally Bulletproof Kids, and it was meant to educate and teach people how to help their children become confident and feel resilient going through these abusive family dynamics. And I remember when I was looking for people to be on that webinar was like, I want a lawyer and I want a therapist,

00:03:17:19 - 00:03:34:05
Lisa Sonni
and they all have to understand that, you know, lawyers say things that you can't do. A therapist would say, never do that. Or a therapist would tell you to do something that your lawyer would tell you never to do. And in hindsight, you should have been on that panel because you get it from all sides. You've been perfect for it. Yeah,

00:03:34:05 - 00:03:42:10
Bill Eddy
it's it's amazing. And there are different viewpoints that have something to contribute. Yes. So I've tried to pull those together in my work.

00:03:42:10 - 00:04:00:19
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. I think you've done a phenomenal job at that. And just understanding the escalation, what you said about family court in particular, and I mean the episodes, not about family court, but in family court, you see the sort of like, okay, there's conflict happening in front of me. This is a high conflict situation. And you are saying, hold on,

00:04:00:19 - 00:04:07:07
Lisa Sonni
this is a probably a high conflict individual in a lot of cases. And that's a very important distinction, I think.

00:04:07:08 - 00:04:32:00
Bill Eddy
Absolutely. And I think understanding which type of high conflict individual also helps to kind of see the patterns of behavior and how to influence the patterns of behavior, because the goal is always to help people kind of calm down, resolve their conflicts and feel better and grow and especially help the kids. I mean, that's really the goal. That's really the goal I might mention.

00:04:32:03 - 00:04:56:04
Bill Eddy
So putting this all together. Then I started High Conflict Institute, with a woman, Megan Hunter, who also was working in family law. And so we put our heads together and said, we need to do a lot of training of family law professionals, lawyers, therapists, mediators, judges, etc. so that's been a lot of trial all came together. That was 2008.

00:04:56:10 - 00:05:08:14
Bill Eddy
It's now 20, 26 or 18 years old teaching people about these patterns. And people are still surprised because they go, oh, that's what's going on. So we glad to talk about it.

00:05:08:17 - 00:05:30:07
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. Shouted from the rooftops. You said the word calm, and I find something really interesting that the calm is something I've been talking about a lot lately in covert abuse tactics, because the reasonable person could, in fact be the most dangerous person in the room, somebody who just appears calm. And I think that that can sometimes be used right before the escalation.

00:05:30:07 - 00:05:52:09
Lisa Sonni
And I think it can feel really shocking for some people that are experiencing it. But it's not it's not a random thing, you know, it's something is sort of brewing. We feel the tension. We feel our body kind of, oh, something's about to happen. That's part of it. We sometimes you, your, your nervous system just knows that that calm means some escalation is about to happen.

00:05:52:09 - 00:06:19:20
Bill Eddy
It could be. And so we want to get to things being calm. But you're also right that calm often precedes the escalation and often catches people away off guard. It's like, whoa, where did that come from? Can you predict some of how that's going to begin? And to some extent you can. But I see different types terms like three main patterns that I see with high conflict people and their escalation process.

00:06:20:00 - 00:06:48:02
Bill Eddy
may, you know, business partner Megan Hunter says different operating systems. And so we're not judgmental. We just we have to deal with them. And so I'm going to use terms that in the extreme are personality disorders. But the personality patterns. So there is a borderline personality pattern which tends to be kind of a roller coaster up and down, loving, wonderful, and then enraged and angry and then loving

00:06:48:02 - 00:07:09:02
Bill Eddy
wonderful again and then enraged and angry again. So that's borderline. Then there's the narcissistic pattern, and I talk about these as pattern. Some people have a pattern, some have a disorder. The disorder doesn't matter if you have this pattern, it's helpful to be aware of it and how to respond. So the narcissistic pattern, which is basically I'm superior.

00:07:09:07 - 00:07:33:19
Bill Eddy
And as long as I'm superior and everyone sees me as superior, I'm doing fine and I can be somewhat mellow or whatever. But if somebody else threatens that, then I have to prove again that I'm superior. And that's where their escalation begins. And then there's the one called anti-social and the anti-social is one that really wants domination, really wants power and control.

00:07:33:19 - 00:08:01:02
Bill Eddy
This is the most power and control personality. And so when they have power and control, everything's fine, no problem. But if they feel they're losing that, then they can be really extreme and they can be more conscious of control. Whereas someone with a narcissistic or borderline may be more reactive. It's like, oh, this is happening and I don't like it, but antisocial person may be, I'm going to I'm going to get her on it and I'm going to get her tomorrow.

00:08:01:02 - 00:08:17:03
Bill Eddy
And she's not expecting it. That kind of more calculating thinking some people say it's kind of like a Cobra or something. I'm going to get ready to strike when I'm ready. So cold anger versus hot anger, which is more of the borderline reactive response.

00:08:17:08 - 00:08:20:16
Lisa Sonni
Could you say that I social's a little more Machiavellian, perhaps?

00:08:20:16 - 00:08:43:19
Bill Eddy
Yeah, yeah, because it's more conscious. It's not like loss of emotional control. And when you said earlier someone can look really reasonable. This is the personality that's the best at hiding what they're really feeling. And so they can look really reasonable. And even in family court, when I'm dealing with family court cases, they can be some of the most reasonable looking people.

00:08:43:22 - 00:08:55:16
Bill Eddy
And yet it's calculated. And often they're very good at persuading people I'm the reasonable person. Hey, you know, you gotta go do what I'm asking for.

00:08:55:20 - 00:09:09:08
Lisa Sonni
Which is so brutal. It's hard because I think the survivor knows what this is, but it's hard to get other people to see it. Why do you think survivors are so good at predicting these patterns of calm and then escalation?

00:09:09:10 - 00:09:38:14
Bill Eddy
I think it depends. For many survivors, they grew up with somebody like this. And so they kind of know this pattern and sad. But often trying to get away from that with their partner and somehow ending up with a partner with a similar pattern so they know it. So that's on the one here. On the other hand, people that never dealt with a pattern like this until their own relationship, and then they started learning how it works.

00:09:38:16 - 00:10:12:05
Bill Eddy
And generally there is an escalation and a de-escalation. But think of all three of these patterns as really wanting to have control they feel and secure. Whatever reason is they want to be in control. More control than most people need to option on a daily basis. They need to control the people around them to feel okay. And some of them were abused as kids and grew up learning. The only way I'm safe is to control everybody around me, control my partner, or control the kids.

00:10:12:08 - 00:10:38:06
Bill Eddy
So the big thing with the pattern is think of is if there's a loss of control, if someone's criticizing me, if someone's threatening my relationship, if someone's threatening my dominance, then that's where they get started. So if you think of the beginning of that, but you might have bad news to give your partner, and you know, when they get bad news, they usually do x, y, z.

00:10:38:06 - 00:10:59:20
Bill Eddy
Some people take off and disappear for a week, some people lash out and start hitting the person with the bad news. Some people are like, well, I'm going to tell the world you're a jerk. And they spread something false on the internet. So you can kind of predict that when they feel a threat to their control, that's when they're going to start acting out.

00:11:00:01 - 00:11:17:02
Lisa Sonni
The hate. And I certainly with my experience, I feel like it often follows a little bit of a script. You know. And what are some of the common steps that you see? These high conflict patterns or high conflict personalities move through when they feel their control is challenged?

00:11:17:04 - 00:11:39:01
Bill Eddy
first of all, they verbally trying to stop the loss of control. So they may just be, you know, for someone with a borderline personality, they often attack you as a bad person, an evil person, a uncaring person. You know, you're you're just a terrible person, a narcissist says you're an idiot. You're inferior. You know, no one will ever like you to

00:11:39:01 - 00:12:04:00
Bill Eddy
respect you. Antisocial person will say, you know, I'm all there is for you. You don't need anybody else but me. And if you're threatening me, you're going to be out in the cold in the world. No one's going to care about you. Your loss, total weight loss. So I think a lot of it's the verbal to try to prevent that loss of control by attacking the person and their behavior there.

00:12:04:00 - 00:12:26:21
Bill Eddy
Then they'll go, oh, okay, I'm sorry, I won't leave. After all, you know, one of the most dangerous times is when someone says, I want to leave you. I want to end our relationship and the chances of injury then really go up. So like seven times more risk of violence or harm at the time of separation, because that's loss of control for these personalities.

00:12:26:21 - 00:12:50:15
Bill Eddy
So, so I would say verbal, for some physical response. Some may go, well then I'll punish you. I'm going to take away your phone or I'm going to take away your money, or I'm going to take away, the kids, I'm going to take something from you. And I've heard people say that. It's like, I feel like I have to take something from you. And it's all from the kids.

00:12:50:18 - 00:13:17:00
Bill Eddy
And so that's kind of part of it. So there's the verbal reaction, then there's taking some kind of punishing action. And that can just grow depends on how the other person responds. But, but that can grow the more threatened they feel, the more they have to be excessively controlling. And that's the the pattern. And then if they start feeling back in control, then they calm down.

00:13:17:03 - 00:13:42:20
Bill Eddy
It's like you say, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I won't leave. I'll stay. Then they calm down. But then it's like the threat of leaving is is still hanging there and they may escalate it. Yeah, but a lot of it goes with that particular person. And especially if they have one of these three styles of personality that they react either. Well, hot anger with superiority or with calculated response.

00:13:43:01 - 00:13:43:12
Bill Eddy
Yeah.

00:13:43:12 - 00:14:04:21
Lisa Sonni
And all are awful. You know. Yes. I've heard people say things like, oh, narcissists are the worst or like they're all terrible. Okay, all of these patterns are bad in their own ways. And even the individuals who display these behaviors are still human beings who behave in a variety of ways. But I feel like so many women say, you know, I, I something flew out of my mouth.

00:14:04:21 - 00:14:27:13
Lisa Sonni
I said this and I knew that he was going to react to this way. I knew that whatever was about to happen, because we see the cycle and even when things calm down, calm is sort of a loose word. When things are, you know, temporarily calm. Sometimes that is part of the pattern, right? It's it goes back to you complied or submit to something and then, okay, they're calm, but just wait.

00:14:27:15 - 00:14:50:17
Bill Eddy
Well, and it's interesting because these patterns vary a little bit. So like the borderline pattern may get a sense, oh you know my, my upset isn't working and my anger. So I'm going to anger and that isn't working. So now I'm going to like be loving and come back. And there's a term some people use they call a hoovering.

00:14:50:17 - 00:15:13:04
Bill Eddy
And that hoovering is getting the person back like, sucking them back in when there's a separation going on and it's like, oh, okay. And now that's not unusual, that they'll try anything but don't believe that. That's to feel secure again to get the relationship back. It's not part of accepting the end of a relationship or having to change.

00:15:13:08 - 00:15:26:03
Bill Eddy
That's another thing you expect them to change. That's that's loss of control. It's like, I can't do that because I have to be in charge, and the person who's in charge and superior shouldn't have to change.

00:15:26:08 - 00:15:47:03
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, I'm right that that is framing. Yeah. Nothing will change that. I know that is been made crystal clear to me over the years, right. That people who feel this way are very set in being right. Yeah. Boundaries is something that I see, very difficult for people. And I know there was a million YouTube videos about how to set boundaries.

00:15:47:08 - 00:16:13:11
Lisa Sonni
I think none of those things work because consequences are, I'm going to say, difficult, but I really mean half time impossible for someone like this because there's a consequence or a punishment, at least when you're in it, to changing your own behavior and not tolerating things anymore. And ultimately it's a loss of control. And that's the reason. But something that's like healthy saying no and having boundaries and having personal autonomy, pulling back, protecting yourself.

00:16:13:13 - 00:16:17:01
Lisa Sonni
This gets experienced as a threat to these people.

00:16:17:01 - 00:16:42:00
Bill Eddy
Yeah. And it's like I'm losing control because if you're setting a boundary on me, then that means you don't see me as a superior person. You don't see me as in charge. You don't see me as having to be respected and admired, and just seen as the end law. So like, for example, let's say someone says, my sister's, having a party

00:16:42:00 - 00:17:00:22
Bill Eddy
this weekend, and I want to go, and, and the man says, why? I don't want to go. And. Well, then I'll just go on my own. No, it's I'm all you need. You don't need your sister. I'm stripping everything you need. So you can't go off. I'm not going. You can't go. And I don't want to go. And it's like, well, I'm going to go anyway.

00:17:01:01 - 00:17:27:18
Bill Eddy
Well, that's a super threat because I'm not in this total position, this total position of being in charge. And so that's the kind of boundary. It's like I'm going to go, you can find something to do. But the question then comes in and you mentioned this word consequences because I teach a lot about boundaries and consequences and even have a book called Slick Solution: Setting Limits and Imposing Consequences.

00:17:27:21 - 00:17:51:18
Bill Eddy
And the thing is, with high conflict people, they ignore your limits. So you always have to think ahead. What will my consequence be if they ignore my limits? And so you have to think, first of all is it safe? It's my consequence safe. What if I say, well, then I'm not going to bake a cake for your birthday if you don't let me go for my sister's birthday. Well, if that's the consequence,

00:17:51:18 - 00:18:19:14
Bill Eddy
that's outrageous. And I'm going to punish you for saying that or doing that. So you have to think through. Is my consequence safe? You have to think through. Does it fit the situation? You have to think through. How am I ready to impose this consequence and do I need help imposing this consequence? So like in divorce cases, it may be needing the court to issue a restraining order if someone can't respect such and such.

00:18:19:18 - 00:18:28:04
Bill Eddy
So setting limits and imposing consequences is always hard with high conflict people, because they really think they're above all of that.

00:18:28:09 - 00:18:48:23
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. So what you're saying just brought this memory of and it's I shocking that I can laugh about this now because it's so not funny. But my abuser was hitting me and eventually I called the police. Not the first time and not even the worst time. It was just that it kept happening. So I called the police and it was like, I can't believe you would call the police.

00:18:48:23 - 00:19:08:00
Lisa Sonni
You betrayed me. I can't believe, but like, I asked you to stop. Which is wild that we even have to ask such a thing. But my consequence, my boundary was just continually breached. So I decided the consequence was you're not listening to me. So I need to take it one level further, which is I need police involvement. But that was a betrayal.

00:19:08:00 - 00:19:24:03
Lisa Sonni
That was the worst thing I ever could have done in his eyes. And it's like, you know, you could have just seen me as a person and not continued the behavior. But not continuing the behavior meant that he would have to admit that he was wrong or change his behavior or and I, you know, you see this constantly if

00:19:24:05 - 00:19:34:10
Lisa Sonni
they're of so unwilling to see themselves as even part of the problem, let alone the problem, because they are the ones essentially choosing to be abusive.

00:19:34:12 - 00:19:52:14
Bill Eddy
Yeah, that's the thing is, they don't connect their behavior to what happens to them. So it's all your fault. It's like, well, you shouldn't have called the police rather than and I shouldn't have hit you. That right? I think that's thinking. And they don't connect the dots back to themselves. And you can't make them connect the dots back to themselves.

00:19:52:19 - 00:20:16:04
Bill Eddy
So rather than trying to give them insight into their own behavior, it's better to talk about what the options are now. And so you're focusing on the future, not the past. You're focusing on choices, not insight. And that's important in dealing with some like this. And sometimes they accept okay, she called the police. I had to go down there.

00:20:16:09 - 00:20:46:12
Bill Eddy
There was a hearing. And you know, maybe there's a temporary restraining order or something. And so they accept that kind of if you bring it up, they'll get in touch with that upset again about it. But you don't need to bring it up unless there's something new happening. And that's something people don't realize is don't bring up controversial past behavior unless you really need to, because their emotions then reopen and you get the whole thing back

00:20:46:12 - 00:21:07:12
Lisa Sonni
again. Yeah. So rage goes back high level. it seems so counterproductive to not bring it up. I know having been in it, it's like you want to explain because you think this person just doesn't understand that they're hurting me. They just don't understand that it's their behavior that's causing this. So you want to say, you know, your behavior has caused this problem.

00:21:07:12 - 00:21:15:03
Lisa Sonni
And if you would just but they see that is such a threat. And rejection or, you know, if it's happening publicly, I imagine even humiliation.

00:21:15:04 - 00:21:45:15
Bill Eddy
All of that and they don't get that's the point you're making. They're not able to get that insight that something's connected to their behavior. Because all of these high conflict people picture themselves as victims in the world, that things just happen to them. They're not responsible for anything. And so it may seem really bizarre that someone who's being abusive only feels like a victim, but because they have that lens on the world, they really don't absorb, hey, I shouldn't have done that.

00:21:45:20 - 00:21:53:03
Lisa Sonni
It was justified. I think that so many of them are just issuing the justified consequences of you not complying to your fault.

00:21:53:03 - 00:22:18:20
Bill Eddy
Yeah. And they often say, well, I had to do that because of what you said or what you did. And it's always they they're very quick to put the blame on somebody else. And so they don't learn and they don't change, but they do change from the consequences. So that restraining order that happened, that temporary restraining order does get through to some extent and may make it less likely in the future that they're going to do that.

00:22:18:23 - 00:22:24:18
Bill Eddy
It depends on the person. Some just don't even think about that. And some of course are angry or yes.

00:22:24:18 - 00:22:41:05
Lisa Sonni
Oh yeah, you just pissed them off for getting a restraining order. I once did some, loose research for a video that I wanted to make because I just mentioned a restraining order in a video and so many comments from women who'd been through this were like, a piece of paper. You know, a restraining order doesn't do anything.

00:22:41:05 - 00:23:05:15
Lisa Sonni
They're hard to get. They don't work. And I was like, is that true? Do restraining orders not work? It's information they want. I've had a restraining order and it didn't work. So am I the I thought I was the outlier, but I am what I read and this is not me quoting actual statistics, but something like 75% of restraining orders work in the sense that it reduces or removes harm.

00:23:05:18 - 00:23:28:13
Lisa Sonni
However, that obviously leaves 25%, and my theory based on nothing is that I think it is mostly narcissistic and antisocial types, and not all, but most in the sense that they just don't care. Antisocial tends to not care about the law. The consequences don't matter. They're above that. The superiority or grandiosity sort of makes them think that that's just a piece of paper.

00:23:28:14 - 00:23:57:13
Bill Eddy
Well, I would agree with you. Plus I would say borderline, borderline man. The restraining order keeps them away from their attachment. The issue for borderline is attachment. And this is for men and women. There's men with borderline personalities and women with borderline personality. all of this stuff isn't really a gender thing. It's a personality thing. It's just there's more men, anti-social, more men, and there's narcissists, and about equal men and women with borderline personalities.

00:23:57:17 - 00:24:20:00
Bill Eddy
But it's about attachment. And so if there's a restraining order, they, they, they're desperate for their attachment. And so they also violate a restraining order to feel connected and to try to talk the person out of it and say, you know, I'm at your doorstep because please, you've misunderstanding me. I love you, I care about you. That was a mistake I made.

00:24:20:00 - 00:24:46:19
Bill Eddy
I shouldn't have thrown that or hit you or whatever it was. So their personality violates restraining orders. Also, some of the time it's a question of how extreme they are. And so your statistics may be accurate, but 25% is a lot of people. and a restraining order is just a piece of paper. So there has to be other things. It's like the police picking the person up if they violate it, which didn't used to happen.

00:24:46:19 - 00:25:03:12
Bill Eddy
But now you're more able to get that you're at my doorstep, you're violating a restraining order. I'm not going to talk to you. I'm not going to listen to you. I'm going to call the police. If you don't leave immediately. Yeah, I say, but wait, wait. Let me talk. Let me come in. Let me have a conversation with you.

00:25:03:16 - 00:25:26:08
Lisa Sonni
Yeah. You don't understand. Let me explain why I was so abusive. I mean, they don't use that word about themselves. I realize that even restraining orders can cause this escalation for these types as well. And I know it's this common thing of if somebody is abusing you, you know, kick them out, get a restraining order. But there are circumstances where getting a restraining order will escalate it further.

00:25:26:12 - 00:25:27:15
Lisa Sonni
I'd say. Yes.

00:25:27:20 - 00:25:48:23
Bill Eddy
So the thing is, what what are the consequences? What are the restraints? If the person knows the police, she's going to call the police. If I knock on the door at her place, then they may decide not to do that. But they want to do that. And it's a question of whether they restrain themselves or have to be picked up and restrained.

00:25:48:23 - 00:26:15:08
Bill Eddy
And that's sometimes a night in jail is the consequence that gets their attention, because the restraining order itself is it's hard for them to accept, so people have to be ready to enforce it. One of the worst things is if you have a restraining order that says no contact, just stay away a certain distance, no phone contact, etc. and he calls up and you answer the phone and you talk to him.

00:26:15:08 - 00:26:37:12
Bill Eddy
you're diminishing the restraining order because you're violating it with him. Yeah. And that happens so often. Well, I just felt like I needed to just hear him out, or I needed to tell him why it was important to me to get that. And it's like, no, if that's his calling, don't answer the phone. Don't violate that. Because that shows how firm you're planning to be. Yes,

00:26:37:12 - 00:26:46:07
Bill Eddy
and ironically, firmness often shows them, the limit more than if they can talk you into talking to them.

00:26:46:12 - 00:27:16:22
Lisa Sonni
What a catch 22 holding firm will help eventually have them stop. But they're relentless when you hold firm. So they escalate. But it's still important to do. And the more firm you can be like, I'm a big I know therapy is a luxury and a privilege, but if you can get into therapy or support groups or, you know, coaching or just anything that will help you regulate and create some nervous system safety and strengthen up some boundaries and overcome some, you know, beliefs about holding consequences and those things.

00:27:16:22 - 00:27:25:10
Lisa Sonni
It's such a good work to do so that you can be I hate the word stronger here, but, you know, be stronger to to get through maintaining

00:27:25:11 - 00:27:49:18
Bill Eddy
and force. And they take your boundary more seriously. One of the things that's important to know is don't go back and forth. So if you get a restraining order and then you say, oh, okay, and I'll go to court and try to get it lifted or something like that, and then something else happens. So you get your next one. First of all, it may make it harder to get your next one, but he's not going to respect that. He's going to figure I can talk her out of this.

00:27:49:18 - 00:28:12:20
Bill Eddy
And so if you go back and forth, it weakens the boundary. But it also may increase their emotional intensity. And that's where we see people really get hurt is when they've been ambivalent. The person goes, well, I thought we were getting back together. And so it looks like we're not. And that's that's where you have people being murdered and stuff.

00:28:12:21 - 00:28:25:22
Bill Eddy
But so don't let this escalate by going back and forth. If you're being firm, stay firm and move step by step. And of course get assistance. You know, get help. Yes, people like you said, a therapist.

00:28:26:01 - 00:28:49:10
Lisa Sonni
Now what's interesting is I am the poster child for what you just described of what not to do, because I was relatively ambivalent. I was like, I'm going to in fact, I didn't go to get a restraining order where I live, when you file for domestic abuse, it's an automatic restraining order, which I very quickly breached. However, the order allowed contact specifically to talk about children, and that just became like a well, we can talk about anything.

00:28:49:15 - 00:29:05:03
Lisa Sonni
And, you know, it escalated. And then he was begging me to drop it and I didn't. I had luckily I had the good sense not to drop it, but it was like I was still ambivalent about it and I was still kind of. And so that led him to think, well, I can get away with more and more abuse happened.

00:29:05:08 - 00:29:25:18
Lisa Sonni
So it really we're talking about restraining orders, but boundaries, even not a restraining order, is a very clear third party boundary of you cannot do certain things. And if you breach it yourself, you are essentially inviting the other person to do it. And I know that it's hard, you know, and I don't blame people for being ambivalent about it.

00:29:25:18 - 00:29:33:00
Lisa Sonni
I know, I really know how hard it is, but it's still really important to stay strong and power through those moments and hold firm.

00:29:33:00 - 00:29:55:11
Bill Eddy
That's true. Like you said, with any boundary, not just a restraining order. If you say, I'm not going to do something and that's your boundary or your limit is you need to follow through with that, you know, because if you. Oh, okay, well, I'll do it anyway. That's that's where now you've taught them that you don't really stick with your boundaries and that they can talk you out of anything.

00:29:55:11 - 00:29:57:17
Bill Eddy
Yes. You don't want to teach that lesson.

00:29:57:20 - 00:30:22:08
Lisa Sonni
No, no, it's very you know, I find that what people say is no, but, you know, like Bill, you don't understand. He gets worse when I have boundaries. He gets worse when. And I always think to myself, that's the point, right? If you try to assert yourself and assert what they see as control and you see as autonomy, they are more angry and they do escalate because they're trying even harder to maintain the status quo.

00:30:22:13 - 00:30:37:14
Lisa Sonni
But it's all the more important to hold firm yourself. And I get in the face of danger. So again, I don't know. Neither of us are making this sound like it's easy or safe to do. But people always say, no, no, these things don't work. No, it does work. You just have to keep going.

00:30:37:19 - 00:31:02:20
Bill Eddy
Yes. It's consistency, repetition, etc. and what I see sometimes is people say this, I okay, I'm going to separate, I'm going to get divorced. And there's this sense of relief that they have this feeling I'm no longer ambivalent. It's clear. And now peace will come my way. And then they communicate that to their partner and their partners through the roof.

00:31:02:20 - 00:31:25:15
Bill Eddy
So you've got to be prepared to do this kind of in a step by step manner so that you're prepared for the pushback, because they're not just going to go, oh, okay, well, that's a relief. Now we know we're getting divorced. It's not like that at all. It's like you may have a sense of peace with your decision, but this kind of be a while before they accept your decision.

00:31:25:15 - 00:31:50:16
Bill Eddy
And that's the key. And that's why you often don't want to tell them that while you're home alone with them, you may want to tell them that in a therapist's office or from some unknown location. And your attorney serves the papers and says, you know, we're going to work on the details here, but she's in a safe place, so need to think ahead when it gets really extreme.

00:31:50:16 - 00:31:54:08
Bill Eddy
And separating is a time when there's much more risk.

00:31:54:13 - 00:32:14:04
Lisa Sonni
Yes, I know it's always a tricky thing to talk about is the post separation side of things, because I hear so many women say like post separation abuse is worse. That's not a good sales pitch to have women leave abusive relationships or have people exit these toxic relationships. And yet I know that it's true. I haven’t experienced it, but I know that it's true.

00:32:14:04 - 00:32:33:00
Lisa Sonni
But it's still worth leaving. It's still worth making that effort, you know, despite how difficult they make it. in post separation, but also when you're still in the relationship. In either case, when you try to assert yourself or you know you're threatening their control, one of the things, one of the many things that happen is the sort of, creation of a crisis,

00:32:33:00 - 00:32:50:14
Lisa Sonni
right? Like the urgency to explain something, urgency to apologize, to tell you that they're going to therapy, you know, oh, they got into a car accident and you need to come to them. Or emotional explosions, even. But there's just big dramatic crises that seem to pop up. Where do you feel like that fits into the pattern of how they escalate?

00:32:50:17 - 00:33:22:18
Bill Eddy
I think it's it's very much part of a pattern that it's the other way to control. If I can't control physically, then I'm going to control emotionally. And saying like, I just had an accident is is a brilliant move to go who's who's going to not care about someone that just had an accident. That's their thinking and that's going to pull your heart strings and you're going to go, well, this once because they had an accident and now you've moved back in with them and are taking care of them, and that's the not holding firm.

00:33:22:18 - 00:33:50:03
Bill Eddy
So when you're holding firm, you got to say you had an accident, you know, call your sister. Yeah. But I'm no longer the person for you for when anything goes wrong. So sorry. I can't do that. So it's thinking ahead. That's part of it is thinking ahead what the scenarios are and being prepared for each of them. And for many people, it doesn't get worse after separation because they've built so many boundaries to protect themselves.

00:33:50:03 - 00:34:01:09
Bill Eddy
And that's where not just having a therapist, having a lawyer you can talk to what what kind of boundaries? All of that. So you're not drawn back in and unprotected.

00:34:01:14 - 00:34:40:20
Lisa Sonni
It's it's obviously hard, but it's necessary, you know, to to really do that. I think, you know, going back to even the consciousness of some of this behavior when they're creating a crisis of any kind or creating a big dramatic emotional reaction to suck you back in, I think I sort of, I jokingly call it bespoke abuse, because I think that they are often so calculated that they they know, you know, that relentlessly tugging at you, peppering you with questions or an interrogation or begging or something that works for others. The silent treatment just kills you, and that leads the victim or survivor to go back because they're being stonewalled.

00:34:40:20 - 00:34:56:21
Lisa Sonni
I would have loved to have been stonewalled. I was always getting the relentless talking at you, and it just made me mental. But they do what works for you. So if a crisis wouldn't work on you, they won't use that. They might use something else. They might use a third party. You know, pulling in your friends and family.

00:34:56:21 - 00:35:08:08
Lisa Sonni
You know that your mom will side with them or their mom or something. So they'll they'll bring in other people children, lawyers, therapists, whatever. Why does that work? Do you think the third party recruitment.

00:35:08:08 - 00:35:28:22
Bill Eddy
Because it plays again on your heartstrings. So let's say your sister says, well, he's a good guy. You know, he's got a decent job. He's handsome. why not give it another chance? You know Why are you just leaving? You know, what about this, this and this and it's going to be hard for you. It was hard enough to set limits on your partner.

00:35:29:03 - 00:35:56:02
Bill Eddy
Now you've got to, you know, deal with your sister who has an inside route to your heart, who's believing all this stuff and having to explain and having to ask for support in my decision. And most family members will, but they don't understand it at first. And so that's where they can get manipulated into. Would you go talk to her and tell her to come back to me?

00:35:56:02 - 00:36:19:00
Bill Eddy
And it's like, oh, oh, she she told you goodbye. Well, yeah, I think you should give it another chance. And family members need to know, and especially if someone's leaving. So I have a book called splitting Protecting Yourself for divorcing someone with borderline or narcissistic personality disorder. Doesn't matter whether they have a disorder or not. It's the pattern of behavior.

00:36:19:05 - 00:36:48:08
Bill Eddy
But what I put in splitting is to let your family members know that you're separating from the person. So it's not a surprise to them. And they're prepared and let them know you don't have to take sides. Just don't take action. Just be supportive for me and don't take a position and don't feel like you have to say things or convince anybody so that you let your family friends know that this is happening and not to get involved.

00:36:48:08 - 00:36:51:02
Bill Eddy
Otherwise they may just get easily sucked in.

00:36:51:02 - 00:37:12:21
Lisa Sonni
Yes, absolutely. Now, a lot of people think this is about restoring control. And it is, there's no question. But it's not just about that, right? They want to control the story. There's image management. They want to be validated and seen as not the problem. So sometimes they sort of frame it to third parties like, you know, she's crazy and she's so mad.

00:37:12:21 - 00:37:35:10
Lisa Sonni
And they will tell a story about what happened. But miss details intentionally to frame themselves. As of course, you pointed out, they see themselves as the victim and then people around you might agree or might fall into believing all of this crap. Especially because a lot of survivors and victims don't talk to their families about what's going on, because you don't want to slander your partner to them while you're together.

00:37:35:16 - 00:37:44:17
Lisa Sonni
And so when you finally say, hey, this person is abusive, it seems like really, Kevin, he's so nice. It's shocking to people. They can pull people in so well

00:37:44:18 - 00:38:08:15
Bill Eddy
Absolutely And I think that's that you can warn your family don't get involved without having to tell them all the secrets. unless you need to. Unless this information is necessary. But yeah. So a lot of this is a judgment call. I think realizing the image management, so many people, it's like narcissists especially can't accept any responsibility for a divorce.

00:38:08:18 - 00:38:31:21
Bill Eddy
And so it has to be all her fault. So I need to prove how inferior she is and how, you know, whatever other true also borderline antisocial may do that, but narcissists are especially invested in the image and they want the image of a perfect marriage. And if you messed that up, it's all your fault, because I would never mess that up.

00:38:31:23 - 00:38:34:02
Bill Eddy
That's their thinking. Yeah, and

00:38:34:04 - 00:38:59:06
Lisa Sonni
it's such an exhausting part of, you know, of being in these abusive relationships. There's a piece that is sort of, you know, the aftermath of this. And I don't mean the post separation aftermath. I mean, after a major escalation where it's explosive and anger or whatever they're doing to regain that control. After that, maybe the apology, the tears, the victimhood, blame reversal, all of it.

00:38:59:06 - 00:39:17:16
Lisa Sonni
You know, like, I know it was bad, but you insert excuse here, right? That's really a huge part of the cycle too. But I think we see that as like, oh, they get it. See he apologized. He gets it. He understands that it was bad. But we don't see it as part of the escalation or part of the cycle of abuse cycle.

00:39:17:16 - 00:39:18:13
Lisa Sonni
How often do you see that.

00:39:18:16 - 00:39:41:09
Bill Eddy
Yeah. So we see that a lot. And in many ways that pattern is a borderline pattern. And for many people it's not violent, it's verbal, but there's an escalation of tension. Then there's an explosion of rage. Then there's a period of remorse, and people go, oh, that's forever. Over the course of the period of remorse. But it's a cycle, you know,

00:39:41:09 - 00:40:04:14
Bill Eddy
they call it a cycle of violence. But it isn't just violence. It may be an emotionally abusive relationship. And so it's part of the borderline pattern because they have what's called emotion dysregulation. And so they have a harder time managing emotions and things build up and then they explode. And so that pattern is very predictable. But again, that's a borderline pattern.

00:40:04:17 - 00:40:31:06
Bill Eddy
So narcissistic pattern would be more public humiliation embarrassment. And they have to blame their partner for that. And they may not have quite that same cycle. Likewise the antisocial pattern is power and control at all costs. And it's kind of a straight line control pattern rather than. And they often don't have remorse. So they're not sorry that you deserved it.

00:40:31:06 - 00:40:53:03
Bill Eddy
You know, I had to do what I did, you know, to do. And they may try to convince you. They may try to get you to apologize for whatever it was you accidentally said before they had to beat you up and say, you can't say that around me or a terrible person. So you don't get the apology. With all three of these, generally,

00:40:53:06 - 00:41:15:06
Bill Eddy
it's the borderline. All three of them, people say, which is the worst? It depends on the person. I mean, all of these personalities have committed murder in some cases, and all of these have maybe worked on themselves in some situations. But the general pattern is the power and control, and that's, that's what they'll, they'll work hard to maintain.

00:41:15:06 - 00:41:26:05
Lisa Sonni
What do you think survivors misunderstand about what they're actually experiencing? When you look at these escalation patterns, is there anything that you think that people are missing when they're in the throes of it?

00:41:26:08 - 00:41:51:18
Bill Eddy
I think people are overl—victims, survivors—are overly self responsible. It's like, what did I do? Why I shouldn't have done that. They're busy blaming themselves that really I shouldn't of this I should of that that they really keep the responsibility on themselves rather than hey, this person needs some limits. Hey, this person acted inappropriately. I don't deserve this.

00:41:51:18 - 00:42:11:11
Bill Eddy
So what I find for a lot of survivors is their self-talk needs a lot of work and can make a big difference. I mean, when I get someone to finally say I shouldn't be treated this way, they're like, burst into tears. It's like because they're so used to saying, I deserve this. I made a mistake, I did this or that

00:42:11:11 - 00:42:34:19
Bill Eddy
and blaming themselves. So I think that self-blame may be in many ways the biggest mistake because it doesn't sit. No one deserves to be hit. No one deserves to be control. I mean, kids have to be for their own safety. But adults, no adults should be controlled by their partner. That's just not not right, not healthy and not that people deserve.

00:42:34:22 - 00:42:42:09
Bill Eddy
So I'd say it's interesting. It's the the self-talk and self-talk you can change. And that's what's so important,

00:42:42:11 - 00:43:12:23
Lisa Sonni
Absolutely. I think the escalation is often the information. Right. It's not proof that you did something wrong. It's proof that the system was challenged and that this person might be a very high conflict personality or possibly disordered. I think that matters so much. Truthfully, this whole conversation matters so much because so many women are dealing with this. So many people are living inside these patterns and thinking that they caused it, or thinking that they've done something to to make this person behave this way.

00:43:12:23 - 00:43:21:04
Lisa Sonni
When some people are just incredibly high conflict or pathological or character disturbed as Doctor George Simon says.

00:43:21:04 - 00:43:29:19
Bill Eddy
but. It's their personality and it's not something you can talk them out of. This is part of who they are, especially when you see it repeat as a pattern.

00:43:30:00 - 00:43:39:05
Lisa Sonni
Yes, absolutely. I want people to kind of shift from what did I do wrong? What did I do to cause this to command? What did my boundary just threaten?

00:43:39:08 - 00:43:47:19
Bill Eddy
What? Yeah, that's the power and control as any boundary threatens that. Yeah. You got to have boundaries for a healthy relationship.

00:43:47:21 - 00:43:55:22
Lisa Sonni
Bill, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate your time. I want everybody to find you online. Where is the best place for people to find your work?

00:43:56:02 - 00:44:28:19
Bill Eddy
Oh, and come to HighConflictInstitute.com. We've got close to 100 free articles about managing high conflict situations. We've got books, we've got videos. And I mentioned two books, the Slick Solutions book Setting Limits and Imposing Consequences, and Two and a Half Steps. So if you're interested, that's our most recent book. And the other is Splitting Protecting yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which is a long subtitle,

00:44:28:21 - 00:44:51:07
Bill Eddy
but it can be any high conflict situation and it's good to read that before you announce that you want to separate. If you end up wanting to separate so you're prepared for the pushback and challenges and resistance to your setting boundaries. So all of this people can soak up, I think, and I really wish all of your people well.

00:44:51:12 - 00:45:02:19
Lisa Sonni
Thank you so much. If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:45:02:21 - 00:45:07:00
Music
Stronger than before.