He Doesn’t Want A Partner. He Wants A Mother | Aishia Grevenberg S4E4

If you've ever been told your standards are too high, that you're trying to change him, or that real love means accepting everything he does - this episode is going to name something you've been feeling for a long time but maybe couldn't say out loud.

Therapist, educator, and LCSW Aishia Grevenberg is back for her third conversation with me, and this time we're getting into why abusive men genuinely believe love should be unconditional - and why that belief has nothing to do with love. What they're really asking for isn't a partner. It's a mother. And once you understand the dominance dynamic underneath that demand, so much of what happened to you starts to make a different kind of sense.

We talk about why your needs feel like a threat to a man who needs control, the difference between pity and compassion and how men use one to keep you stuck, what love bombing actually does to a woman who grew up without a baseline for healthy love, and why having conditions in a relationship isn't selfish - it's the bare minimum. If someone has ever made you feel like your standards were the problem, this one will make you feel a lot less crazy and a lot less alone.

Find Aishia: @mytherapistlife on all platforms

Transcript

00:00:00:13 - 00:00:08:18
Speaker 1


00:00:08:20 - 00:00:17:22
Lisa Sonni
This is Real Talk With Lisa Sonni: Relationships Uncensored, the podcast they don't want you listening to.

00:00:18:00 - 00:00:39:05
Lisa Sonni
Today's guest is back for her third appearance and honestly, every time I have her on, she names things that women have been feeling. But a lot of people just don't have the words for yet or just can't say out loud. She has an incredible way of just exposing belief systems that really keep women stuck, especially the ones that women in particular were taught to mistake for love.

00:00:39:05 - 00:00:49:13
Lisa Sonni
So joining me again is Aishia Grevenberg an educator, a therapist, a speaker, and truly one of my most favorite voices. So can you tell us a little bit more about you?

00:00:49:17 - 00:01:08:13
Aishia Grevenberg
Absolutely. Whenever anyone asks me that, I feel like I give them a different spiel each time. I think for our conversation, it's important to note that I'm a college professor, and I became a college professor when I was 34 years old, and my students, when they walked into the room, they thought I was another student. They didn't realize I was the professor.

00:01:08:13 - 00:01:27:22
Aishia Grevenberg
And so I've taught family therapy, individual therapy, social policy, cultural competency. So I do a lot of work in education, and I'm also on TV and I also do therapy. And so this is my passion. This is all I have ever done, all I've ever done for the past 20 years.

00:01:27:23 - 00:01:54:03
Lisa Sonni
I love it. So you know what you're talking about now, today's topic I think, is so interesting because it's not supposed to be a hot take. This is not controversial. Why is this already so controversial? We are talking about abusive men believing that love should be unconditional, and the ways that they convince women in the relationships to love them, no matter how badly these men are actually treating these women.

00:01:54:04 - 00:01:55:12
Lisa Sonni
And I think,

00:01:55:13 - 00:02:01:13
Aishia Grevenberg
go ahead. This is something I'm so excited to talk about. Girl, I can't even let you get the words out. Go ahead. Yeah, right.

00:02:01:14 - 00:02:14:13
Lisa Sonni
Like, oh my God, I have so much to say. If you loved me, you'd accept me as I am. That is the first like, oh my God, the thing that just makes me so angry because that's trash. What a trash thing to say. What do you think?

00:02:14:17 - 00:02:33:00
Aishia Grevenberg
the thing that I like to remind people before we get into this conversation is that I'm a real person. So that means I've been on hinge, I've been on Bumble, I've dated, I've had men say these things to me. And being a therapist, I've been living life, studying life and learning life all at the same time, all at the same time.

00:02:33:00 - 00:02:59:11
Aishia Grevenberg
My life, my client's life, and all of this in real time. And so I didn't know this, right? I didn't know this. This wasn't taught to me in graduate school. This is something that I had to practice, that I had to really learn how to do. And so literally in real time, what happens and what I've learned is that most men, obviously not all men, are socialized to see women as mothers.

00:02:59:11 - 00:03:20:12
Aishia Grevenberg
And so the request to love me unconditionally is what a parent does. It's not what a partner does. And so they confuse that, and they confuse women in our relationships with them getting a second mother and a place where they get second caretaking. Right. And if you have a man that has had issues with his mother, we're going to talk about that too.

00:03:20:13 - 00:03:33:12
Aishia Grevenberg
But initially, the way that they're socialized, they don't see women as equal. They see us as caretakers. And so they that's what they believe. So of course they believe you should accept them as they are because they don't see you as an equal partner.

00:03:33:12 - 00:03:52:10
Lisa Sonni
It's wild though, like the endurance as proof of love is just such a piss off. It's how much can I put her through? I think they see it as like a demonstration of loyalty. If you stay, no matter how they treat you. But then also narcissistic abusers also see it as weakness. And then they'll punish you for being so stupid that you stayed with them.

00:03:52:11 - 00:04:03:12
Lisa Sonni
I've been told that's how they see it from actual narcissists, you know, like you stayed, you put up with it. So they just keep giving you bad treatment. And yet it's simultaneously proof of loyalty and they don't have to change.

00:04:03:13 - 00:04:23:12
Aishia Grevenberg
Its dominance. And so whenever I talk to women, I'm always surprised how little they know about men and men psychology. But they want to date men and they want to be married to men, but they don't know a lot about men, and they don't know a lot about the way most men want to feel. And most men want to feel dominant.

00:04:23:13 - 00:04:38:13
Aishia Grevenberg
They want to feel like when they come home they are the head of the household. They are the king of their castle. They want to feel catered to. And that's that's the reality. Right? And this is what they say to me in therapy. This might not be what they say to their girlfriends. This is what they say to me in therapy, okay?

00:04:38:13 - 00:04:59:15
Aishia Grevenberg
And this is what I've studied. And so when they're doing that that's a dominance play. So I'm going to hurt you. I'm going to beat you down and you're going to submit. And when you go back, that's the submission and that's what they're looking for. So they are establishing their dominance over you that they can control how you feel, that they can get you to second guess your own reality.

00:04:59:15 - 00:05:16:19
Aishia Grevenberg
And then you can put them as the arbiter of what is real and what is not. And that is the ultimate dominance. I control my home, everything in this home I control. Everyone in here answers to me. And anything that challenges that dominance challenges him. And now we got a problem.

00:05:16:20 - 00:05:33:15
Lisa Sonni
I mean, hell yeah, that's a problem. This whole framing, everything you just said, it's one big giant problem. Love is not the absence of standards, but that's the way that it's framed. I know that the language we're using is so different than the language that they're using. But I want to be clear. We are saying what they're saying.

00:05:33:15 - 00:05:42:11
Lisa Sonni
We're saying the quiet part out loud that they want mommy's men will say they don't want mommies, and then explain that it's a wife's job to and then describe a mommy.

00:05:42:12 - 00:06:05:08
Aishia Grevenberg
Here's the thing. this is something that you'll see in like monster movies where men will have a wife and then they'll have a side piece, right? A mistress, right, because the wife is the mom. Get catch. What I'm saying, the wife is the mom, and they feel like there are certain things they can't do with the mom, but with the side piece, they can be themselves, and they can have fun, and they can laugh and they can do anything that they want.

00:06:05:09 - 00:06:24:19
Aishia Grevenberg
Right? But this idea of wife is this is basically my second mom. This is a mother to my kids. This is the one who takes care of me, who takes care of my kids, takes care of my home, and that sort of they that is they pedestal you. That's an idealized position. And when you're in that idealized position, then you have to prove yourself.

00:06:24:20 - 00:06:38:05
Aishia Grevenberg
You do. And it's very difficult for women to understand this unless men have done this internal work and unpack this. That is how they're showing up in relationships, because that's how they're socialized. They're socialized that way.

00:06:38:06 - 00:06:45:23
Lisa Sonni
That's horrible. That is horrible. What do you think? Where does this idea that, like love means endless acceptance? Where does that come from?

00:06:45:23 - 00:07:09:20
Aishia Grevenberg
That is a lot of unresolved dynamics with parenting and with a lot of boys. And then now we got to call out the boy moms. We going to have to call out the boy moms, honey, because they are deeply problematic. And this is a way. All right, I'm trying to choose my words because this is a difficult conversation for boy moms to hear that they are positioning their sons as their emotional support.

00:07:09:20 - 00:07:46:08
Aishia Grevenberg
They are positioning their sons to give them that feedback and that validation that they are not getting from their partner. And this sets up a very uncomfortable and confusing dynamic for little boys that is hard for them to understand emotional boundaries when their mother does not have them, and so it's difficult for them to interact with women in a way that is productive, that is egalitarian, where they see women as equal because that relationship in their home is so unbalanced, and then they are socialized with patriarchy, with misogyny, to see girls as less than, to see anything that's feminine, as less than right.

00:07:46:09 - 00:08:13:03
Aishia Grevenberg
And so it's unreasonable to think that a man that's had this experience and this socialization is now going to see you as someone that can leave anytime you want, right? If they upset you, you can leave. You don't have to be around someone who is doing something that you don't agree with. They expect you to treat them the same way their mother does, who is always sort of placating, always acquiescing to them in their moods and downplaying their behavior.

00:08:13:03 - 00:08:26:14
Aishia Grevenberg
And you see this in grown men. I've seen this in grown men, where their mom is the one that is not being honest about their behavior is being misleading. And so that boy mom dynamic contributes to what we're seeing as well.

00:08:26:15 - 00:08:47:04
Lisa Sonni
You know, I want to add something because I know people get caught up in phrases. Boy moms are not moms of sons. It's a specific subset of moms who have male children. Right? Like, I don't want people to think just because you have a son. You're what we're talking about. No, no, no, this is a specific subset and you see it all the time.

00:08:47:04 - 00:09:11:00
Lisa Sonni
My own abuser, like, my God, his mother, there's nobody who's a bigger fan of his. She'll call him out in certain situations, but at the end of the day, she will never hold him accountable. She will pay for his criminal defense. She will baby him and treat him like a secondary husband in so many ways. And like, you know, there's no accountability when you have one of those types.

00:09:11:03 - 00:09:21:00
Lisa Sonni
the way accepting someone as they are becomes self betrayal in so many of these relationships. And that's what they expect, because their mothers accepted them exactly as who they are.

00:09:21:05 - 00:09:52:23
Aishia Grevenberg
And they saw their mom give up their identity, lose their identity in their role as mother, and perhaps their role as partner or whatever. They were conditioned to see a woman with no identity and no sense of self and no boundaries. That is their image and their understanding of what a woman is and what a woman does. And so when I work with moms, I encourage them, let your kids see you cry, let them see you upset, and if you're having a hard time, tell them mommy's having a lot of big emotions.

00:09:53:00 - 00:10:12:22
Aishia Grevenberg
You know, mommy gets sad. What happens when you get sad? You cry, right? It's okay. That way, you're showing them that it's okay to have a full range of emotion. You're not supermom. You are a person who has had children. You're allowed to be a person. But as long as boys have this idea that my mom can take anything on, she works through jobs.

00:10:12:22 - 00:10:19:20
Aishia Grevenberg
She takes care of everything that is not healthy. It's not healthy for the parent, and it's not healthy for the children to see.

00:10:19:20 - 00:10:40:19
Lisa Sonni
I agree, I was constantly being compared to his mother and the biggest difference, I mean outside of the obvious were two different people is I'm not a homemaker. I was not a homemaker. She was a homemaker. So she could handle this. And she did that. She was a millionaire homemaker. There's a difference in what we can do. And also we're just different people.

00:10:40:19 - 00:10:58:09
Lisa Sonni
So even if both worked full time, I don't want to. That's like the way that their is sacrificed becomes this measure of my mom worked three jobs and she never complained. Maybe she didn't complain to you, but you don't think that was hard? You want your wife to work three jobs. It doesn't make any sense. But it's like they expect that from you.

00:10:58:11 - 00:11:13:16
Lisa Sonni
They expect this unconditional. No matter what. I can treat you any which way. And you're going to love me even when I treat you badly. Even when I sexually coerce you, even when I don't contribute, even when I hurt your feelings. That is mental to me.

00:11:13:17 - 00:11:34:21
Aishia Grevenberg
it is. But it is the idea that sacrifice means love. And this dynamic comes from the church. It comes from all the movies and the music that we hear, all the R&B, hip hop, everything. Right. And I, whenever I say that, always think about Mary J. Blige and Method Man. Like you're all I need, right? You're all I need to get by this constant.

00:11:34:21 - 00:11:55:00
Aishia Grevenberg
Like they're repeating that over and over again. You are all I need. And so this idea that the more you sacrifice for me, the more you love me. The more you put up with, the more you love me. And when they see their mom constantly sacrificing, not taking care of herself, not taking time for them, for herself, that's what they expect from their partner.

00:11:55:04 - 00:12:16:20
Aishia Grevenberg
They don't see it any differently. And when you add on the misogynistic lens, this is what they are expecting and you are selfish if you have standards, you are selfish. If you have boundaries and you have no idea how many people men in my personal life have said to me, even men from high school have messaged me on Facebook girl and been like, you know what?

00:12:16:20 - 00:12:29:00
Aishia Grevenberg
I don't believe that you believe everything you're saying. I'm like, what do you mean? You don't think who has the degrees? Me, you know what I mean? And they were like, well, I just think it's selfish that you don't have kids.

00:12:29:06 - 00:12:30:05
Lisa Sonni
Selfish.

00:12:30:10 - 00:12:52:13
Aishia Grevenberg
Selfish. My best friend's dad was like, you need to have at least one. At least one. I'm like, what are you? What do you mean? I need to have at least one kid. For what? For what? But it's this idea that if you are focused on yourself as a woman, you prioritize education. You go to therapy, you take care of yourself, that you are being selfish because you're centering yourself and you're not centering your man.

00:12:52:13 - 00:13:03:16
Aishia Grevenberg
And they see our our being. And what we are here for is to have babies and to take care of men. That's what they saw their mom doing, and that's what they think we're supposed to do. That's a fact.

00:13:03:16 - 00:13:24:14
Lisa Sonni
I hate that, I don't think I think it's crazy to have kids when you don't want them. Like, I don't think anybody should do that. I think that I don't know if selfish is the right word. Crazy makes more sense to me, but it's that's when understanding men is exhausting. You know it. I feel the more I have understood them, the less I like them. But

00:13:24:14 - 00:13:35:15
Lisa Sonni
I know there's good men. I know you said not all men. I've been. I've been recently using not all men, but against men. When they tell me no men want this or men that. Oh, really? Not all men, right. Just being sarcastic.

00:13:35:15 - 00:13:58:17
Aishia Grevenberg
Now, It's interesting working with men. And what I find is that a lot of the male voices, online they're not people who actually, in real life work with men. And obviously the men who come to therapy have a different orientation. But I've worked with men who don't, who don't have the right. They are required to come to therapy so they can't not come right.

00:13:58:17 - 00:14:20:13
Aishia Grevenberg
They're court ordered to come and talk to me. And so in that I have this sort of view of men who voluntarily say, I want help, and men who don't have a choice, who have to come to therapy. And so working with men and this is, this is something I've done for 20 years, a lot of it is they are not aware that there's something wrong with the way that they think.

00:14:20:13 - 00:14:38:19
Aishia Grevenberg
And the reason why is because there's always a woman that is willing to sacrifice. So when they reach a woman who says, well, I'm not doing that. And a woman that has boundaries, they think you're mean. They think you're cold. They think that you want to be a man. You're masculine. They feel like you're talking down to them or you are emasculating them.

00:14:38:19 - 00:14:57:22
Aishia Grevenberg
And so because they don't see us as equal, when we have an opinion and we set boundaries, that is aggression to them, they see that as confrontational, no matter how nice you say it. And when women are like, well, I tried to explain it to them, it doesn't matter. You are trying to trespass into his authority and his domination.

00:14:57:22 - 00:15:10:17
Aishia Grevenberg
That's why he's shutting it down. You can use your therapy voice, your lawyer voice, your sugar voice. It don't matter. You are basically saying to him, I'm the one that makes decisions about my life, not you. Now that's a problem.

00:15:10:18 - 00:15:33:17
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, because he owns you. Especially if you're married. Especially if you have kids. Especially if you own a home and you're stuck. But even in just long term relationships, it's my girlfriend, my woman. I hate it now many of these men, abusive men especially. Right. Like this whole like, oh, you're trying to change me. They should change. And I think I know for me, I used to be really like, I'm not trying to change you.

00:15:33:17 - 00:15:54:08
Lisa Sonni
That's not what I'm doing. In hindsight. Yes, I was, and I don't even say that with any shame of, like, you know, I was right, I reflected, and I, I was trying to change him. I was trying to change him back to the pretend version of himself that he showed me from the get go, but I was trying to change him from being abusive and from thinking in a misogynistic way.

00:15:54:10 - 00:16:10:23
Lisa Sonni
Now they weaponize this kind of you're trying to change me because, for example, if you ask for honesty, you don't trust him. If you ask for kindness, it's like nothing I ever do is good enough for you. Or asking for him to not cheat is suddenly God. You're so controlling.

00:16:10:23 - 00:16:33:02
Aishia Grevenberg
So what I often see, and this is what I say all the time. This is why I don't do couples therapy. Because men weaponize therapy too, and you're in a relationship and you've asked them for the same basic treatment. Basic treatment. And I very rarely come across the women that they, you see portrayed on social media where they're like, you got to make half $1 million and you got to buy me.

00:16:33:02 - 00:16:54:23
Aishia Grevenberg
I have never seen a woman like that in my practice at all. At all. Never. That is a fact. Never. And maybe those type of girls don't come to therapy, but I think I would have came across one. I think I would have came across 1 in 20 years, you know what I mean? What women are asking for is, number one across the board, help with taking care of the kids and help with washing dishes and getting food together.

00:16:55:00 - 00:17:07:20
Aishia Grevenberg
Very, very basic things women are asking for. And when they're asking for it and men will say they'll do it. But you have to sort of tell me what you want me to do, because I don't know what you want me to do, or you want things done a certain way, and I don't do them your way. So I don't know.

00:17:07:20 - 00:17:22:03
Aishia Grevenberg
I don't know what to do. I can't do it right. They want to do things on their time. And when women are consistently asking them and they get frustrated and they're like, okay, I'm leaving, the man will say, okay, well, I'll go to therapy, let's go to therapy. And then they sit there. This is what they do. They sit there

00:17:22:03 - 00:17:44:10
Aishia Grevenberg
and I'm like, okay, so what's when I used to see him. What's happening? Well she she did she that okay. Well how come you can't help wash the dishes? Oh, Messiah. You show on her side. What? What? I'm holding you accountable. Oh, y'all ganging up on me? Nobody's ganging up on you. I'm telling you, as one adult to another adult, you have to be responsible for the home you live in, right?

00:17:44:11 - 00:17:58:20
Aishia Grevenberg
And, girl, there was times when I was like, don't even pay me. Don't even. I don't even want your money. Leave this man. I was like, dump him, I'm done. Like the session is free because why do we. It's like you're being manipulated. Yeah. You're being made

00:17:58:22 - 00:18:00:15
Lisa Sonni
money for the divorce. You think.

00:18:00:16 - 00:18:19:03
Aishia Grevenberg
Therapy is going to get a man to wash dishes? Yes. You think that talking to a therapist is going to make him help you around the house? That he doesn't believe that's his job. He doesn't believe that's his responsibility. He believes he goes to work, he makes money, and everything else is your job, period.

00:18:19:03 - 00:18:39:07
Lisa Sonni
That's how when she goes to work and earns money. Because that's the thing that really irks me is like, well, what do you expect? I mean, 75% of women are not stay at home wives or mothers. And so let's talk about the majority here, even when they both work full time. And me and my ex, we both worked full time and it always became, yeah, but I work harder than you.

00:18:39:07 - 00:19:05:10
Lisa Sonni
And I'm like, how do you figure you work harder? He had a more blue collar job. Not totally cliche blue collar, but like more blue collar. And I had an office job, but I'm like, I move around, I walk around, I moving around this building all day long. I don't just sit in a desk all day. And even if I did, mental exhaustion versus physical exhaustion and you're off topic now, you're debating who works harder when, at the end of the day, what we were talking about was dishes and needing help needing participation,

00:19:05:10 - 00:19:14:02
Lisa Sonni
in fact. Men often see a boundary or any sort of assertion of autonomy as oppression. Right. You're saying it's a threat to their dominance?

00:19:14:06 - 00:19:39:06
Aishia Grevenberg
Yes, 100%. And the thing of it is, and this is I want to use my words in a respectful way, and I don't want to sort of demonize men because I'm not this isn't about this particular man. This isn't about Paul or Eric. This is about the way men are socialized to see women and to see what they are responsible for and what women are responsible for.

00:19:39:06 - 00:19:57:18
Aishia Grevenberg
And many men feel like household chores are emasculating that I'm going to come home and then I'm going to wash dishes. I just worked all day. It doesn't matter if they sat behind a desk and their mind, their work and their job is more important than yours. It doesn't matter if you're a doctor. If you're a surgeon, it doesn't matter.

00:19:57:19 - 00:20:16:03
Aishia Grevenberg
They feel that what they do is more important than what you do, even if you make more money. And I've been in that situation to where I'm making the coins, you know what I'm saying? I'm making the money, and this man thinks I'm going to move somewhere to be with him when you don't have anything. Sir, I'm the homeowner, you know what I'm saying?

00:20:16:04 - 00:20:32:14
Aishia Grevenberg
This doesn't make any sense. Like I'm the one that owns the home. I'm the one that makes the money. But you think I'm going to give up what? I have to follow your dreams. This doesn't make sense. But the expectation is you need to support me. You don't care about me because you don't care about my dream. You're not holding me down.

00:20:32:14 - 00:20:41:23
Aishia Grevenberg
This is a way that they're socialized to think. And everything about our culture feeds this mindset. And then it's terrible. It's toxic. Yeah.

00:20:42:01 - 00:20:56:16
Lisa Sonni
It's no wonder that so many women experience abuse. Someone asked me recently what percentage of relationships are abusive, and I don't know that there's a stat that gives you the answer. But if 1 in 3 women have been abused that it's 33% no.

00:20:56:20 - 00:21:21:11
Aishia Grevenberg
That's way too low. I think it's the way that we're quantifying abuse. I don't know a single woman who has not been abused in her relationship, in a relationship in her life where a man has not grabbed her, thrown things at her, yelled at her, put her down, told her she wasn't smart. She wasn't pretty. Just this type of demoralizing, dehumanizing speech and mental abuse and verbal abuse.

00:21:21:11 - 00:21:42:14
Aishia Grevenberg
I don't know a single woman who has not experienced that. You can experience that from strangers, right? My homie online said a man rubbed against her in the gym. They don't think that this is abuse. It is abuse. And as women this is what we have to deal with. And so from as early as 13 years old, men yelling at you, saying things to you, this is what women deal with.

00:21:42:14 - 00:21:54:11
Aishia Grevenberg
So if we're really talking about the actual mental, physical abuse, harassment on the street, I don't know a single woman who has not experienced that. So 33% to me is very low.

00:21:54:13 - 00:22:18:16
Lisa Sonni
I would personally easily believe that it's much higher, I really would. I think women get convinced that it's not abuse, or that it's not bad, or that it's just normal, right? And I think that is part of this. Love should be unconditional in these relationships with these men because they A yes, they saw it from their mothers, but they're so socialized to expect her sacrifice and expect her compliance and submission for her to just do.

00:22:18:16 - 00:22:34:18
Lisa Sonni
And women are socialized to take all of this on. So then it becomes natural to go, like, maybe I am asking for too much. Maybe I am trying to change him. I know for me I was I was convinced. I'm like, oh, I'm doing the wrong thing. I am trying to change him. And and it felt like the wrong thing.

00:22:34:18 - 00:22:39:00
Lisa Sonni
But I was only ever asking for basic decency.

00:22:39:00 - 00:23:00:05
Aishia Grevenberg
let me tell you, one of the things that I've noticed, and this is just me in my personal life and the dating experiences that I've had whenever I'm trying to communicate with someone. “Oh, you're trying to therapirize me,” right? I'm like, number one, that's not a word. That's not a word. And other women say the same thing that men say to them, whether they're therapists or not.

00:23:00:06 - 00:23:21:10
Aishia Grevenberg
You're trying to psychoanalyze me. You're trying to do this to me. And it's like I'm having an adult conversation with you. And because you're not used to communicating with women as equals, then it feels like somebody is trying to do therapy on you. And when you listen actively and you ask questions like, you just listen to what they say and you're like, well, let me let me run this back.

00:23:21:11 - 00:23:40:08
Aishia Grevenberg
Is this what you mean? Then they get offended. I'm like, I'm using your words. You know what I mean? And it's what's been frustrating for me is really men having a lot of issue with a woman being successful. And what they say to me is when I owned a home, I travel a lot now, so I don't I don't have a home, I have a condo.

00:23:40:09 - 00:23:56:09
Aishia Grevenberg
Why would you? This is what they would say to me. Why would you buy a home without a husband? What do you mean? Is that a requirement? And even when. And this is not even when I'm signing for the house to do to the house. It had my name and then it had a single woman. I was like, why does it have.

00:23:56:09 - 00:24:12:12
Aishia Grevenberg
Why do I have to put that on my deed? And they said, because you have to make it clear that you are. I couldn't believe this. You are a married woman and you are single. Single is a legal definition. You're not married. That's what you are on legal documents. I had to say single woman on the deed to my home.

00:24:12:12 - 00:24:26:17
Aishia Grevenberg
This is how ingrained misogyny is. It's on our documents. And they would say to me, well, why do you have a house then you are. You're putting yourself in a situation where if you meet a man and he doesn't have a home, then he feels some type of way.

00:24:26:23 - 00:24:28:06
Lisa Sonni
Why am I telling

00:24:28:10 - 00:24:46:09
Aishia Grevenberg
what? And we are taught as women implicitly to think about, well, I want to experience this with a man. Well, I'm not going to travel. I'm not going to go somewhere by myself because I want to go here with a man. And then you hear men saying, I don't want a woman who's traveled everywhere, because I want to be the one to give her those experiences.

00:24:46:09 - 00:25:00:18
Aishia Grevenberg
I want to be the one that we buy our first house together. Even though you can't buy the type of house I can buy, friend. You know what I'm saying? Like I've been working my whole life. You understand what I'm saying? So what I can do for me and what you can do for me are two different things.

00:25:00:18 - 00:25:21:14
Aishia Grevenberg
But that's hard for them. It's emasculating. It's like, well, what am I what? And they say this, well, what purpose do I have if I'm not dominant, if I'm not doing things for you, if you don't need me, what is my purpose? And they don't understand that If you are needed, then how can you ever see that as love?

00:25:21:15 - 00:25:33:22
Aishia Grevenberg
Love is when someone says, I want you in my life, I like you. I like being around you. I like laughing with you. I like looking at you. I want you here. I don't need you here. To men, those are like fighting words.

00:25:33:22 - 00:25:57:23
Lisa Sonni
I agree they want to be needed. And they actually have created a really great system of women previously, having needed men. But I know men walk face first into the point all the time of we don't need you anymore. We want to want you. You're making it real hard, though, to want men who are like this and haven't done the work to unpack this.

00:25:57:23 - 00:26:24:22
Lisa Sonni
And I totally agree that therapy is not the place for men to unpack their misogyny. Definitely not couples therapy, but even individual. They need to be reading. They need to really be looking at their belief systems a lot more. One thing I see a lot is this double standard of how men will demand blind acceptance for everything about them, while they spend all of their time modifying your entire life and reshaping who you are, right?

00:26:24:23 - 00:26:43:23
Lisa Sonni
Don't talk to me like that. They want to change your tone. Don't wear that or don't wear makeup or whatever. They're changing things about your body. They don't like a certain friend of yours. They don't like what job you have or where you work, or some crap. They don't like your sexuality. They don't like your reactions. All of this while demanding blind acceptance.

00:26:44:02 - 00:27:08:10
Aishia Grevenberg
The reason why is because they feel it's this idea of, I'm going to make you into the woman that I believe you should be, and that I'm going to tell you what you need to do, and you need to listen to me. And there's this sense of authority. I'm the authority in your life. And so when we talk about codependency, once again, codependency is gendered.

00:27:08:10 - 00:27:25:09
Aishia Grevenberg
So the way that it presents is based on the way the genders are socialized. And so a male sense of codependency is a hierarchy because I'm the authority in your life, I'm the man in your life, and I'm the one telling you that you're not going to dress that way. I'm the one telling you that you have on too much makeup.

00:27:25:09 - 00:27:57:00
Aishia Grevenberg
I'm the one telling you that, no, you're not going to cut your hair. I'm telling you that. Right? And they expect you to listen because once again, that sense of dominance is important. It really is. And they in their primary relationship, they need to feel dominant. They need to feel like I'm the man in this relationship. And you listen to me and this and a male therapist has they say this, they say this, they say this, they say this and it just when I tell you, it makes me itch all over my body, I'm like, and I, I'm from new Jersey and I'm ready to curse any, any drop of a dime.

00:27:57:00 - 00:28:25:11
Aishia Grevenberg
I'm ready to curse you out. Because as a therapist, how have you not unpacked your own misogyny to see a woman as equal, to see a woman making request of her partner asking is her right as a human being? This blows my mind that so many men can get doctorates, PhDs, doctors, lawyers. They can be all these things, but they still have not unpacked that misogyny and women that work with them will tell you this is how they act at work.

00:28:25:15 - 00:28:26:11
Aishia Grevenberg
It's bad.

00:28:26:13 - 00:28:33:15
Lisa Sonni
It is brutal. I feel like when you're saying dominance and I think that's absolutely accurate, I think they would say that's leadership.

00:28:33:15 - 00:28:56:14
Aishia Grevenberg
So what that's very fascinating to me because leadership is not dominance. Leadership is cooperative. And so when someone says that to me, I know immediately that they have no idea what leadership is. And when whenever I'm in that situation and I say to them, I actually coach real leaders in real life, I coach executives. This is what I do for real, for real.

00:28:56:15 - 00:29:21:00
Aishia Grevenberg
Like, it's not a game. I'm not pretending this is what I do in my real life. And leadership is about finding people's strengths and building them up as much as possible. That's what leadership is, and anyone that has worked anywhere with a good boss has felt that. That boss saw what their strengths were and gave them trainings and gave them opportunities to grow, and then they were able to blossom in what they did.

00:29:21:00 - 00:29:46:16
Aishia Grevenberg
So a real leader does not want the spotlight. A real leader says, I want to be replaced. I want you to become the person that you need to be professionally so you can take my job. There's this lack of self. There's no selfishness in leadership. Leadership is 100% cooperative, but only someone who sees leadership as a thinks that that type of authority is appropriate and it's not.

00:29:46:16 - 00:29:50:23
Aishia Grevenberg
And we know in the workforce that doesn't work at all ever. These men killed me.

00:29:51:03 - 00:30:01:19
Lisa Sonni
Let's kind of focus this on the conditions that love should have. What do you see as healthy conditions for a normal, healthy relationship?

00:30:02:00 - 00:30:28:07
Aishia Grevenberg
So to me is very simple. It's figuring out what each person lyases leadership. So if my strength is education, my strength is really organizing things, planning things, then that's what I bring to the relationship and that's what I do well. So I'm not a details person, right? I'm not I'm not a person that does details. And so my partner would need to understand that and I dated.

00:30:28:13 - 00:30:49:16
Aishia Grevenberg
This is why I don't deal with Virgos because I'm not a detailed person. They're very meticulous. And I think we drive each other crazy because I'm a big picture person and a meticulous person. We won't work and that's nothing wrong. That's not something that they need to fix. It's not something I need to fix. It's my strength that I bring to the relationships and the things that I'm not so good at.

00:30:49:16 - 00:31:12:21
Aishia Grevenberg
I learn to manage them, but the relationship is where we come together, and we bring what we do best and see if it complements each other. And then we see, can I live with the quirks? Can I live with the things about you that are not going to change, that are quirky? And can we communicate and build a life together that is fun, that is sexy, that we, you know, we wake up and we're giggling and you slap my booty and I slap, you know what I mean?

00:31:12:21 - 00:31:33:01
Aishia Grevenberg
We having fun. We brushing our teeth, dancing, doing the wobble. Like that's fun. That's that's what you want to have in a relationship. But that's only when the both of you can bring your strengths together and accept where you both struggle, and you have to be able to accept the person for who they are, as they are right in front of you, without any adjustments or any tweaks.

00:31:33:01 - 00:31:49:13
Aishia Grevenberg
Can you accept that because it's not going to change? And if you can, cool. Now there are minor things you can. Can he dress a little bit better? Sure. Can you take him to Macy's and get him some nice or close? You sure can. I've done that. You ain't going nowhere with me looking like that. I've done that.

00:31:49:13 - 00:32:08:00
Aishia Grevenberg
But their character is not going to change. Their personality is not going to change. And can you accept the person right there? Can you have fun? Can you travel? Can y'all joke? Can y'all go get in a pool party and splash like little kids? Can you have fun if you can't? Now we have a different conversation. Yeah.

00:32:08:01 - 00:32:27:19
Lisa Sonni
It's. So true. And I don't think people see that early on. I think we get caught up early in relationships, especially when you're dealing with somebody who's abusive because they are predatory and they're showing you the the fun, happy, lovebomb-y version of themselves, and you don't actually realize, like, that's going to change and enter double standards and enter.

00:32:27:20 - 00:32:44:19
Lisa Sonni
You're trying to change me and all the crap that they say. But healthy adult love has conditions. But it seems to me that it's been framed as selfish women who have conditions. It's like, oh, see, see, you never loved me because there's conditions. Yes, like I'm supposed to.

00:32:44:21 - 00:33:09:06
Aishia Grevenberg
Their conditions with everything in life. So when you go to a restaurant, when you go buy shoes, you have conditions, you have expectations, and you want to be treated a certain way. And so nowhere else in life. Do you show up and just let things happen to you. You always are the one that's driving the bus, and you have a right to ask, to be treated a certain way, and you have a right to ask and say, I'm a loving person.

00:33:09:06 - 00:33:26:09
Aishia Grevenberg
I'm a caring person. I'm fun under these conditions. I enjoy spending time with men and laugh and let's go to a concert under these conditions. And that's the way it is. And any you go to a restaurant, you order steak. Steak is my favorite. I want you to cook it this way because that's the way I like it.

00:33:26:10 - 00:33:43:04
Aishia Grevenberg
That's it. Everything in life has conditions, and it should. It really should. And that's the way that I can show up fully myself. And you can show up fully yourself. But if your condition is, I lose my identity to be with you. Then you and this relationship got to go. Is that simple?

00:33:43:06 - 00:34:07:01
Lisa Sonni
It is that simple. I know I don't. I hate the fact that it always gets framed as she's being controlling or she's being unfair. She's trying to make you be a different person. I think, especially when you're looking at the abusive subset of this, where they were showing you a good version of themselves. And so it's not change as much as it's changing back to when you were perhaps wooing her or trying to get her to stay with you.

00:34:07:01 - 00:34:27:11
Lisa Sonni
It's like, Why do you get to change where the conditions are now different? And I can't have an opinion about you treating me differently. I was here because you were treating me well. I laughed and was playful and all those things when you were not a complete asshole. And now that you are, yeah, the conditions have changed. And I would argue he changed the conditions

00:34:27:12 - 00:34:50:07
Aishia Grevenberg
Absolutely. What I, what I always tell women is that when you see an extreme. And the thing with love bombing is that it is an extreme. The problem is, if you grew up and you didn't have someone paying attention to you and someone loving you and you grew up lonely, then it's very difficult for you to understand that that behavior is too much because you don't have a baseline.

00:34:50:07 - 00:35:09:04
Aishia Grevenberg
When you haven't had something, you don't have a baseline for it. And so a good way to understand this is when you're really hungry and you you eat, you think you can eat a lot of food. My mom would say your eyes are bigger than your stomach, right? Your eyes are bigger than your stomach. You think you can manage all this food, but you can't.

00:35:09:04 - 00:35:27:22
Aishia Grevenberg
But you're so hungry that you don't realize I have a limit. You don't realize the limits. And when you don't grow up with healthy love, when you don't grow up with a mom that's pouring into you, I love you. You don't have fathers or uncles that tell you, oh, I love you so much. It's okay. You don't have a baseline.

00:35:27:22 - 00:35:47:07
Aishia Grevenberg
You don't know what is acceptable. You don't know what is too much. And so when that love bomb comes, it feels so, so good. And I promise you, I have been love bombed. And it feels like heaven. Girl, it feels like heaven. The cause you're so beautiful. You're so smart. When I tell you I would drink that up, drink it up.

00:35:47:07 - 00:36:08:12
Aishia Grevenberg
Not realizing that this is all coming from being a lonely kid and not having a lot of attention. And this handsome man with this money is smiling at me and giving me all this attention. It was like I was intoxicated. And I even said that at one point, like, I feel drunk. Like this feels like it's so much, so fast, right?

00:36:08:17 - 00:36:23:15
Aishia Grevenberg
And with women to understand that's what the love bomb is. But I promise you, it's a pendulum swing. And as loving as they can be. Baby girl, that pendulum is going to go the other way. And that's how cold and cruel and punishing they can be too.

00:36:23:20 - 00:36:44:04
Lisa Sonni
Like, I completely. Agree with you. They can be incredibly punishing. It's horrible. Women feel so guilty for asking for their needs to be met, for asking for autonomy, for asking for, them to go back to how they treated you in the beginning because it gets framed as, you don't love me, you're trying to change me. You're the problem.

00:36:44:04 - 00:36:58:13
Lisa Sonni
You're selfish. All that crap that we're talking about. Horrible women confuse compassion with obligation. Women stay in these relationships. Why do you think this sort of crap that men sell? Women work so well on women?

00:36:58:14 - 00:37:20:14
Aishia Grevenberg
Because I don't think we know the difference between pity and love. And I don't think we understand what it means to pity somebody, and to pity somebody really is to look down on them. And it is to it's not compassion. It's not compassion at all. We get those three things confused, and men have a very good way of telling you.

00:37:20:14 - 00:37:40:18
Aishia Grevenberg
Everybody in my family left me, like nobody believed in me. The last girlfriend kept me for my kids accuse me of all kinds of things, and I did everything for her. And she left me. She embarrassed me. All this, right? All these instances of women who have hurt me. And you're going to do exactly what they did. You're going to leave me and you're going to hurt me too.

00:37:40:18 - 00:37:58:20
Aishia Grevenberg
And then that puts women in a position where you're like, well, I don't want to be that. I want to be the one that believes in you. Right. And so then that is confusing because in your mind, you think that's compassion, but that's not compassion, that's pity. Pity is when you're looking down on someone and being like, oh, you've had it so bad.

00:37:58:21 - 00:38:20:22
Aishia Grevenberg
You've had it so bad. Oh my God, that is so dismissive. No one wants pity. But in essence, when men are doing that to you, that's what they're asking for. They're pulling at that heart string and trying to get that heart to bleed. And if you have a bleeding heart and you lean towards seeing people as victims, then they got you, girl, they got you.

00:38:20:22 - 00:38:30:15
Aishia Grevenberg
But if you can see someone and say, oh my God, that that's terrible that that happened to you, I'm so sure you can deal with it. I believe. I love that,

00:38:30:19 - 00:38:33:10
Lisa Sonni
yes, I have faith. That you can figure that out.

00:38:33:11 - 00:38:47:19
Aishia Grevenberg
Yeah, I know you can figure it out. I've seen you figure other things out. I know you can figure that out. I know you can. I know you're capable. I know you're capable. If you go to work every day, you do a good job. You just got a bonus. I know you can figure this out. I want to watch you figure it out.

00:38:47:20 - 00:39:08:01
Aishia Grevenberg
Now, that's two equal people. As opposed to one person seeing another person as wounded, as having a hard time in life, as somebody that got the short end of the stick, somebody that ran into crazy woman after crazy woman after crazy woman. Right? And ain't nothing wrong with him all. It's all these women that have done all this harm to him. But he ain't do nothing.

00:39:08:01 - 00:39:27:05
Aishia Grevenberg
All he did was love them right. And he wants that pity. Because when he gets that pity, now you actually feel good. You feel like I'm a good person, right? I'm a good girlfriend. I'm doing what I can for my man. I'm helping my man, my man, my man. I'm helping him. Right. Men don't need help. Grown people don't need help.

00:39:27:05 - 00:39:48:07
Aishia Grevenberg
They don't need help. Right? You might need a resource, but you don't need help. That's the difference. And so compassion is confidence. Compassion is confidence. That means I have compassion. And I see that you can do exactly what you say you can do. I know you can figure out how to communicate. You can read a book, you can Google it.

00:39:48:07 - 00:40:02:16
Aishia Grevenberg
You can go see Miss Aisha and talk about how to communicate. I'll show you how to do it. I'm confident you can do it. That type of energy, when you come to men with that type of energy, I know you can figure that out. I'm sure you can. You got it on AI, you know what I mean?

00:40:02:16 - 00:40:03:10
Aishia Grevenberg
You could do it.

00:40:03:11 - 00:40:20:00
Lisa Sonni
you'd think they'd love that. You'd think that they would be like, you know, you you big, strong man. I know you can figure that out. They like it, but they don't. Because what they want is for you to mommy them. They want you to fix their problems and pity. You're totally correct. Pity me so that you step in and do the work for me.

00:40:20:00 - 00:40:38:17
Lisa Sonni
I believe that men are capable. I always find it funny that I get called to misandry all the time, because I think men are smart and capable and all kinds of great things. I have a great man. I have a great father. I have a great son. I have a great brother. I'm surrounded by great men. And yet I don't like abusive men or men that act like babies.

00:40:38:17 - 00:40:48:00
Lisa Sonni
Men that act like, you know, you hear the king man baby syndrome. Those men. I don't like those men. But those men hate me because I want more from them.

00:40:48:04 - 00:41:11:08
Aishia Grevenberg
Oh, they. Girl, I hate me too. And they always. And it's so funny. They always assume that. That my ex-boyfriend's girl. I got a five out of five stars on all my ex's. I ain't got no complaints. You understand what I'm saying? I'm a cupcake. I'm a lover girl, very much a lover girl. And I value men. And that means that I know that you can do this.

00:41:11:08 - 00:41:32:11
Aishia Grevenberg
I know in my soul because I've seen it done. I've seen men come to me in therapy and deal with that pain that they have, deal with being bullied and being shamed and being humiliated. Deal with the pain of their father not being there for them. And I've seen them deal with it, and I've seen them be able to communicate and for them to have their own boundaries.

00:41:32:11 - 00:41:50:11
Aishia Grevenberg
And when I talk to men about what are their boundaries and not so focused on changing the woman in your life, but what are your boundaries? What are your boundaries? And to get them to talk about that, they they don't even really think about it. But when they start to share that with me, then I see the shift.

00:41:50:13 - 00:42:09:03
Aishia Grevenberg
So I have expectations of men because I know what men are capable of, just like you said. So I'm actually your biggest fan. I'm your biggest fan. I'm in your corner because I got you. I know you can do this. I know you can communicate you on this game that they play the video game. Y'all communicating all day long.

00:42:09:06 - 00:42:21:13
Aishia Grevenberg
I can do it, I know it. I believe in you. And when you have that type of energy, how is that messaging? Because I want you to be an adult. How was that message? And I'm not going to I don't pity you. I don't feel bad for you.

00:42:21:14 - 00:42:40:09
Lisa Sonni
Which is, by the way, that's a I mean, that's a whole other episode, but that is respect. But that's not what they think as respect. They, they totally misuse that word. We could go down a whole rabbit hole there. But yeah, this idea that women have to give unconditional love to anyone other than their children is just a wild concept.

00:42:40:10 - 00:43:01:06
Lisa Sonni
No one will ever sell me on that. I have conditions, men should have conditions. You should have conditions. Everyone should. That is normal. I want that to be the biggest takeaway because love is not going to fix his cruelty. Loyalty is not proof of love. What you can endure is never going to be the thing that heals an abusive man.

00:43:01:06 - 00:43:05:00
Lisa Sonni
First of all, that's unlimited access is is crazy.

00:43:05:01 - 00:43:23:00
Aishia Grevenberg
It is crazy. And the thing of it is, is that working with men and getting to some of the deeper issues with them, I'm going to tell you something that I know another therapist has never said to you, because I've worked with men. Most of the men that I've worked with that were involuntary. That means they had to come and talk to me.

00:43:23:00 - 00:43:44:06
Aishia Grevenberg
That means they had issues with drugs. They had issues with fighting. They had issues with aggression. 99% of those men experienced domestic violence in their home. 99% of them saw their mom being abused. And what they said to me out of their mouth is that I couldn't do anything to protect her. I heard it, I heard what was happening to her, and I couldn't protect her.

00:43:44:06 - 00:44:02:18
Aishia Grevenberg
And I always say men explode. And so they had that sense of, I should be able to help my mom, even as little boys. I'm talking six and seven. I should be able to help my mom. And they couldn't. And so that sense of shame is like even boys of eight, like I'm supposed to be a man. I'm supposed to be a big boy, a big boy.

00:44:02:20 - 00:44:30:10
Aishia Grevenberg
You'll even see little kids say, I have a big boy. I'm a big boy. No, you're just a kid. But they couldn't, and that's what they witnessed. Girl, I have had men crying in my arms because they were like, I just couldn't save her. And that's where so much of their shame comes from. And when they really get down and they really allow me to see that little boy and to really connect with that little boy girl, they'll be crying.

00:44:30:11 - 00:44:51:05
Aishia Grevenberg
They really, for the first time, are able to be seen. That is so cathartic for them and that's so healing for them. And then they can start to say, I don't know, I was just doing what I was, I thought was right. That's not even the person I am. When you allow them to be them and then we'll say to me, like, I'm actually a sensitive dude, you know what I mean?

00:44:51:05 - 00:45:05:22
Aishia Grevenberg
I just, I don't want my friends to laugh at me. I don't know how to deal with that. I don't know how to deal with them bullying me. I don't, I don't know. And when they are able to be that vulnerable girl, that's when I can do the best work with them. They are excellent clients when they are about it.

00:45:05:23 - 00:45:24:22
Aishia Grevenberg
Best clients I've ever had. They have their notes. They are very involved. They like I want homework, I want homework and they come, girl, they have their homework. When I would do family therapy, they'd be sitting there with their mom like, and I work with offenders, I didn't I work with sexual offenders. Boys. They would be sent with their mom all ready for my therapy. Miss Aisha,

00:45:25:02 - 00:45:32:00
Aishia Grevenberg
I want my therapy. They are when they're ready. I promise you, they are the best clients you can have promised. Well

00:45:32:00 - 00:45:34:06
Lisa Sonni
that's helpful. Very hope to me. Yeah.

00:45:34:07 - 00:45:53:03
Aishia Grevenberg
It's helpful. It's good. They're. They're excellent. There are people. They are people. And when you see them as people and you treat them as a person, you're going to have such a more vibrant experience. Stop pitying men. They don't need your pity. They need your respect. And so you ask them. You give them a request, a request. They meet it.

00:45:53:04 - 00:45:59:04
Aishia Grevenberg
Cool. If they don't, they don't. That's your condition. Move on. Focus on yourself.

00:45:59:08 - 00:46:23:11
Lisa Sonni
Absolutely. Safety. Kindness. Accountability, normal conditions. That's important. And if somebody calls that controlling or says that you're trying to change them, I think that they are maybe grieving the loss of unrestricted access to harm you. So that's a big red flag and probably assigned to step the hell out of a relationship like this. Thank you so much for being here.

00:46:23:11 - 00:46:27:14
Lisa Sonni
I really appreciate your time and all of your thoughts. Where can people find you.

00:46:27:19 - 00:46:41:21
Aishia Grevenberg
So you can always look for me on all my platforms is @mytherapistlife, and I talk quite a bit about these different dynamics there. And I love coming here and talking about this too. So if I'm here or find me at my therapist life.

00:46:42:00 - 00:46:44:07
Lisa Sonni
Absolutely. Thanks so much.

00:46:44:09 - 00:46:53:23
Lisa Sonni
If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:46:54:00 - 00:46:57:03
Music
Stronger than before.