He Cheated, Blamed You, and Still Expected You to Stay | Dr. Kathy Nickerson | S4E08

If you’ve ever been cheated on, then blamed for it while he expected you to just move on and stay, this episode will validate your experience and cut through the confusion.

Lisa Sonni sits down with Dr. Kathy Nickelson to explore the dangerous overlap between infidelity and abusive, controlling behavior. They break down why cheating in abusive relationships is rarely “just about sex” or immaturity — it’s often rooted in entitlement, power, and a lack of accountability. 

The conversation clearly distinguishes between typical infidelity and patterns of emotional or physical abuse, helping listeners spot performative remorse versus genuine change. Dr. Nickelson shares insights on the role of childhood conditioning, attachment wounds, boundary-setting, and why hoping for change without real consequences often keeps women stuck. This episode empowers survivors with clarity around self-trust, safety, and the realistic path to healing.

Transcript

00:00:00:13 - 00:00:08:18
Speaker 1


00:00:08:20 - 00:00:17:14
Speaker 2
This is Real Talk With Lisa Sonni: Relationships Uncensored, the podcast they don't want you listening to.

00:00:17:16 - 00:00:35:23
Speaker 3
I want to talk about something that gets oversimplified constantly, which is cheating. Right? There's advice out there that always kind of sounds really clean and really healthy. Like, if you want to cheat, just leave. But that's just not what so many women are actually living, because there is a very specific pattern that I know I see over and over again.

00:00:36:00 - 00:00:53:08
Speaker 3
A man cheats lies about it. Maybe he gets caught. Maybe he doesn't. But then he doesn't leave. He doesn't even want to leave. He wants to cheat. He wants you to stay. He wants you to just accept it. And often he wants to get away with it. So he's not interested in openness or honesty. Maybe he's blaming you.

00:00:53:09 - 00:01:14:12
Speaker 3
Maybe he's performing remorse. I think it's a lot more about control. So today we're really going to get into that dynamic. What's actually driving it? You know why remorse or what seems like it can feel really confusing. And why just leave advice just misses the mark completely. So I'm joined today by Doctor Kathy Nickerson and I'm so excited to have you.

00:01:14:12 - 00:01:32:22
Speaker 3
I want to kick it over to you to tell us who you are, because you are perfect to be talking about this topic. Thank you so much, Lisa, and I'm so happy to be here with you and your listeners. Let's see. I am a licensed clinical psychologist. I've been in practice for about 25 years. I specialize in a fair recovery.

00:01:32:22 - 00:01:56:01
Speaker 3
This is all I do and all I talk about. And I am the author of two books on a fair recovery. And most recently, some colleagues and I completed one of the largest research studies ever done on straying partners and betrayed partners. So I'm very excited to have been working on that research and getting that out into the clinical journals.

00:01:56:01 - 00:02:18:14
Speaker 3
But basically, I am a person who loves helping people heal from affairs and infidelity, which is quite different from what we're going to talk about, which is people who really have no interest in genuine recovery. There are people who want to continue to act out and feel entitled to act out. So I'm really glad we're talking about these differences.

00:02:18:15 - 00:02:21:07
Speaker 3
Yes, I think that's important because so many women think, you

00:02:21:07 - 00:02:21:12
Speaker 2
know,

00:02:21:13 - 00:02:26:13
Speaker 3
he cheats, he's sorry, and people can get past affairs. I have

00:02:26:13 - 00:02:27:01
Speaker 2
clients

00:02:27:01 - 00:02:45:18
Speaker 3
that are asking me, what are the statistics on people who can get past this and who can recover? And I think that's jumping ahead in so many ways. You know, I'm sure there are statistics and you could probably spout them off right now, but that's not really the point. I think it looks like he wants forgiveness.

00:02:45:18 - 00:03:07:02
Speaker 3
He looks like he feels bad. But I think people hear cheating and they think, I don't know, like impulse control is poor or it was the heat of the moment or emotional immaturity or a million reasons. And maybe those are some of the reasons in call it your average affair. But in an abusive dynamic, it's it's more deliberate, I think.

00:03:07:02 - 00:03:56:08
Speaker 3
I think sometimes they thrive on getting away with something. What do you think? Yeah. I think, you know, there's let's say garden variety infidelity and then there's sexual addiction. And an even different branch of the tree is people who are abusive and feel entitled to do whatever they want to do. And so the people that you're probably most encountering and your listeners are most encountering are the people who really have this belief system that they are better, somehow entitled to this behavior and have no problem breaking boundaries and violating agreements with their partner because they don't really feel their partner deserves that kind of respect or deference or treatment.

00:03:56:08 - 00:03:58:20
Speaker 3
I completely agree with you. There's a

00:03:59:00 - 00:03:59:16
Speaker 2
really, I don't know,

00:03:59:17 - 00:04:20:00
Speaker 3
like sick entitlement to this, right? To being able to do something sneaky, get away with it to hurt you. But we think it's about desire, right? I think and often these guys will frame it in that way. Right? I just was weak. I just she was there, I wanted her, she came on to me. But I see it as much more about entitlement and control.

00:04:20:02 - 00:04:53:13
Speaker 3
Yeah. I think the hallmark of what makes something abusive or an abuser is that there is this desire for power and control, right? Somebody really wants to exert power and control over their partner or over another person. And abusers regulate their own nervous system by dysregulating somebody else. So if your partner is an abuser, they're wanting to help themselves feel better by making you feel worse, right?

00:04:53:15 - 00:04:54:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. Got to love

00:04:54:15 - 00:04:56:10
Speaker 3
that shift of accountability, right?

00:04:56:11 - 00:04:58:13
Speaker 2
I only cheated because you

00:04:58:14 - 00:04:59:06
Speaker 3
were not made me

00:04:59:06 - 00:05:00:00
Speaker 2
do needs.

00:05:00:01 - 00:05:02:13
Speaker 3
Yeah. Right, right. Absolutely. But there's

00:05:02:13 - 00:05:10:03
Speaker 2
so much entitlement and I think that it's confusing, but I think in the moment, I don't know if we know that it feels like okay, I get it.

00:05:10:04 - 00:05:29:07
Speaker 3
We try to give context sometimes to why they cheat it. Or maybe they're giving us context. But I hear I know what I'm doing, and I still expect access in a lot of the stories that I hear from my clients. You know, he still he expects you to forgive him. Like, of course you should forgive him or this is just what some men do.

00:05:29:07 - 00:05:48:01
Speaker 3
But I don't agree with that. No. Isn't that wild that somebody would say that this is just what we do. We make all these promises and then we break them. It's okay. Yeah. No, of course that's not. Your problem, Cathy. Right, right. yeah. No no, no, that that's unacceptable behavior. And, you know, even if somebody is not feeling good.

00:05:48:02 - 00:06:09:09
Speaker 3
Right. One of the things I talk about a lot is that there's a lot of emotional pain behind bad behavior. Even if somebody's not feeling good, they still have a variety of choices for what to do about that, right? Cheating is never an exceptional one. It's never the right one. It doesn't solve any problems. And it's not somebody else's fault that you chose to cheat, right?

00:06:09:10 - 00:06:35:09
Speaker 3
You were the one who made that decision. Your partner didn't get a vote, right? You didn't come sit down with them and say, hey, I'm not. You know, I feel like doing this. I think I should do this. What do you think? And then, you know, it's decided by committee. No, it's. You decided. And you also decided in that moment, perhaps you weren't thinking about it, but you decided that you were going to put your needs above somebody else's feelings and safety and health and all that jazz.

00:06:35:09 - 00:06:56:14
Speaker 3
So, yeah, that's an example of entitlement, They really do feel like very justified. And I think when you look at the reasons and like heavy on the air quotes of reasons because it's excuses, I think cheating is wrong, period. Now, I know that in there's a million reasons and context matters. And if people are trying to forgive, it makes sense to listen.

00:06:56:14 - 00:07:18:11
Speaker 3
But I think when we're listening, because I know certainly from personal experience, but also my clients tend to say, you know, I want to hear why. Like what? What caused this? The excuses that you hear are long. Usually that it's your fault, as we've already covered. But even you know, you're not having sex with me often enough is truly the most common thing that I hear.

00:07:18:11 - 00:07:46:20
Speaker 3
And it sort of it leads into this conversation around sexual coercion, even of, you know, he's coercing you, which is ultimately, I think, killing the desire to begin with. And then he cheats and then it's your fault. If you just slept with him more often, he would have not strayed. No, no, that is not true. And in fact, when we do research and we ask people, was the primary reason that you cheated because you were sexually unsatisfied, the answer is usually no.

00:07:46:21 - 00:08:08:16
Speaker 3
In fact, it's not even in the top five reasons for why people cheat. So I yeah, no, most of the time they talk about it being a painkiller. And so again, there's a significant difference between somebody who has one affair to affairs versus a sexual addiction or some kind of compulsive sexual behavior, and then somebody who's really trying to abuse.

00:08:08:16 - 00:08:28:17
Speaker 3
And so I think, you know, a lot of the explanations for why somebody might cheat do sound like excuses. There's no excuse for the behavior. It's always the wrong behavior. We can maybe try to understand why. And I particularly care about that because if I know about the why, then maybe I can prevent it and unwind it.

00:08:28:17 - 00:08:54:20
Speaker 3
But when somebody is repeatedly cheating and saying things like it was your fault, it it was because we didn't have enough sex, it was because you gained weight. It was because our house is always a mess. It was because you don't pay attention to me. Those are not explanations, justifications, excuses. Those are not reasons why somebody is allowed to go and do some inappropriate, really hurtful behavior.

00:08:55:00 - 00:09:13:22
Speaker 3
The reason why somebody does something hurtful is because it provides some kind of emotional relief for them. Or maybe there's some kind of pathology or some other factors. But, this taken to an extreme is abuse. And if somebody is telling you it's your fault. That's just BS. It's not. Where do

00:09:13:22 - 00:09:25:02
Speaker 4
you think this entitlement really comes from? That they get to just do it and not feel remorse or blame their partner? You're talking about power and control. Do you think that's really what what drives this entitlement?

00:09:25:04 - 00:09:53:11
Speaker 3
Yeah, I mean I think a lot about why does somebody do what they do. Right? So why would you want power and control over somebody else? Well, it must be because you feel somewhat powerless or you feel out of control. And so then the desire control someone else gives you this feeling of safety. It gives you this feeling of being able to regulate your own internal distress.

00:09:53:11 - 00:10:06:20
Speaker 3
And I think there's this desire to maintain dominance over somebody else so that you stay in this position of control and safety. And it's it's really, really unhealthy.

00:10:06:22 - 00:10:27:00
Speaker 4
You know, I remember once I looked this up because I was so fascinated with this, it was a client that asked me the question and I thought, I'm not totally sure on the answer. I have my own opinion, but clinically, what's the answer? Which is why do they cheat when you know, at the time it was 2023, but I was like, be non-monogamous, be poly.

00:10:27:00 - 00:10:48:12
Speaker 4
I don't you know what? Like why cheat? What's the why not just have multiple partners and say this is what I want. I'm sure there are people out there that are looking for something the same. And you realize because again, that's not what they want. They don't want non-monogamy or they and they're not not interested in an open relationship because then you would be sleeping with someone else.

00:10:48:16 - 00:11:05:21
Speaker 4
That's not what they want. When you factor in the they want to have dominance, when they want to get away with something, when there's a thrill sometimes involved in what they can sneak around and do, that's not what that would entail. And I think really more specifically, they don't want you sleeping with someone else.

00:11:06:00 - 00:11:31:17
Speaker 3
For sure. And, I think the motivations of somebody who is an abuser is a little bit different from the motivations of somebody who's kind of my typical client, who has a more garden variety affair. Right? My folks are really looking for a painkiller now. It's a very inappropriate painkiller, and I'm never trying to justify it, but they're looking for a way to cope with their own feelings.

00:11:31:18 - 00:11:56:11
Speaker 3
They don't know how to deal with that. And what to do in the case of somebody who's abusive. I think they don't care about their partners feelings. They want to maintain power and control. And I also think there's more entitlement excitement around this idea of dominating you and being in control of you and using you as their sort of emotional kidney, if you will.

00:11:56:11 - 00:12:04:05
Speaker 3
They want to process their feelings through you, so you go through more of the pain and they don't have to go through as much, right?

00:12:04:07 - 00:12:24:18
Speaker 4
I totally agree. I think a lot of these men seem to want the wife or girlfriend. They want the picture of commitment. They don't actually want to be committed on their end. They expect loyalty. And I always say to people too, like, if you think that he really thinks cheating is not that big a deal, because I know sometimes it's like, my God, it's just sex, relax.

00:12:24:18 - 00:12:31:02
Speaker 4
But okay, so cheat on him and see what happens. Obviously don't because that could be very dangerous in an abusive situation.

00:12:31:02 - 00:12:32:08
Speaker 3
But right, right.

00:12:32:11 - 00:12:38:22
Speaker 4
Flip the role and see is it no big deal. Now that you've slept with someone else he would flip out, right?

00:12:38:23 - 00:12:41:11
Speaker 3
Right. Because you're his. And that's not

00:12:41:13 - 00:12:59:08
Speaker 4
He feels so entitled to have both of those things. And I think again, just the reason I keep hammering the entitlement piece is because to me is the biggest driver. Like that's the reason that they're that they're doing any of this, any of the abuse. Some people will also say cheating is abuse as a blanket statement. I think cheating can be abuse,

00:12:59:08 - 00:13:02:12
Speaker 4
I don't know. Could you say that blanket statement? It's always that way?

00:13:02:13 - 00:13:24:17
Speaker 3
No, I mean, I tend to not like blanket statements because if we make everything a level ten, like all cheating is abuse or we make everything a level one, like, you know, nothing is a big deal, we lose all the nuance and all the value and the differences, those differences help us treat people and treat couples. So I never think cheating is appropriate.

00:13:24:17 - 00:13:52:09
Speaker 3
I think it is abusive of the relationship. Does it rise to the level of abuse? I personally say no. A lot of my colleagues say yes, and a lot of people on social media really push back on me when I say this, but it's because what the people you're taking care of are experiencing that is abuse. And I think that's significantly different and much more problematic in a variety of ways than what my average client is experiencing.

00:13:52:09 - 00:13:55:10
Speaker 3
So that's why I differentiate between the two.

00:13:55:12 - 00:14:16:15
Speaker 4
actually agree. I mean, I'm probably one of the people who would say cheating is abuse, but I do mean in the context of you're in an abusive relationship and he's now cheating, which involves manipulation and probably gaslighting and, you know, sneaking around and financial abuse. And honestly, in some ways, I would even say sexual abuse if he's out.

00:14:16:19 - 00:14:38:10
Speaker 4
Yeah. Sleeping around, God only knows what he's bringing home, exposing you to, or accidentally get somebody pregnant. I mean, there's so many things that wrong. It's really unfair. So it's abuse in that context. But actually, I love the gray area. I rarely speak in it, but on episodes where I'm speaking to another person, I love bringing in the nuance because it matters when you take out the nuance.

00:14:38:10 - 00:14:58:11
Speaker 4
I know my clients are very confused as well. Like, it's easy to say that's abuse, but like looking at what drives anybody's behavior is key. Now, what do you think drives the sort of performative fake remorse? Because I think that's part of the confusing part. It's one thing to be cheated on and have him tell you, what's your problem.

00:14:58:11 - 00:15:13:16
Speaker 4
God, it's no big deal. That's I'm going to call it relatively overt, but they like. Baby, I'm so sorry. You know, she meant nothing to me. I never should have done that. I know it's me. I'm the problem. Please. I'll change. And then he doesn't.

00:15:13:17 - 00:15:39:20
Speaker 3
I think it's a performance. Right? It's a performance to get things back to a stable place as fast as possible. And it's kind of a control strategy, right? I want to get us out of this uncomfortable spot as quickly as possible, because I do not like tolerating distress. But I know that I have to perform some distress so that you will calm down and you will continue accepting my behavior.

00:15:39:20 - 00:15:42:03
Speaker 3
So I think that's what's behind it.

00:15:42:03 - 00:16:01:03
Speaker 4
I think there's a difference between like, the real and the performative, but man, when you're in it. Oh, it is so hard to see the difference. I'm not even sure people can, like list off the differences. To me, I think the biggest difference is person who feels remorse won't do it again, and they'll give you space to process it.

00:16:01:04 - 00:16:20:14
Speaker 4
In my reading about affairs, what I see is a big thing that is very helpful to the person who's been victimized by this is The perpetrator of the cheating gives you space to talk about it, and you are willing to give them the information that they want. I know some people like don't want any someone every little detail.

00:16:20:15 - 00:16:28:00
Speaker 4
Yes. But yes, the refusal to tell you anything and the like. I'm sorry, but we don't have to talk about this ever again. It's very dismissive.

00:16:28:00 - 00:16:56:15
Speaker 3
Oh, totally. Yeah. If somebody is stonewalling you and will not answer your questions right and refuses to talk about the affair, that is not consistent with somebody who wants to truly heal from this. If somebody is not willing to be transparent, that is somebody that does not want to heal from this. If this is somebody who is defensive and pressuring you and rushing you and blaming you, that's not consistent with true healing.

00:16:56:21 - 00:17:18:05
Speaker 3
You know, somebody who is genuinely sorry will be struggling, right? And they will feel bad and that will be painful for them. you'll see them struggling. Somebody who is just pushing and pressuring and rushing you is not somebody who's genuinely sorry. That's a person who wants to just get through this discomfort phase and get to the other side as fast as possible.

00:17:18:06 - 00:17:25:14
Speaker 4
you know, what I call them is the clean slate. Guys, we just need a clean slate. Just just never bring it up again, and then everything will be fine.

00:17:25:15 - 00:17:27:20
Speaker 3
Sure that'll work? Yeah.

00:17:28:00 - 00:17:29:04
Speaker 4
Sweep it right under the rug.

00:17:29:05 - 00:17:48:05
Speaker 3
Yeah. No, I mean, so, do you know, I think the roots of infidelity start in childhood. And so if we wanted to do the clean slate strategy, we'd have to get that thing from the Men in Black movies and just completely erase your mind, and then we could start all the way over. But since we don't have that, it's not going to right?

00:17:48:05 - 00:18:05:18
Speaker 4
I don't even understand how they think it's possible it clean slates. It's one of the things that irritates me the most. And I don't know that I even experienced that myself. So it's not even like I'm personalizing this. I mean, I have experienced infidelity, but the so many of my clients say, you know, he just says, I have to stop bringing it up.

00:18:05:18 - 00:18:30:12
Speaker 4
He's like, you know, stop bringing up old crap. It was last month. No, you had you had a two year affair. Even if he cheated once, in all honesty. Like it becomes a pattern. And now she feels nervous and he'll call that insecurity all these different ways to shut her down. None of this is remorse. When you. When you're sitting in front of these, these people, these men who have been the perpetrator themselves, what does that look like to you?

00:18:30:13 - 00:18:34:11
Speaker 4
What are they saying that you can tell is real remorse?

00:18:34:12 - 00:18:57:22
Speaker 3
Oh, you know, thank you for asking that, because the truth is, a lot of the people that I take care of are hugely remorseful and are so disconnected from their emotions. They're so used to just shoving everything down and compartmentalizing everything, that once we actually start talking about feelings, it's like this gushing volcano. And at first they resist because that feels really scary.

00:18:57:22 - 00:19:19:18
Speaker 3
But then we get there. So when I see somebody who's genuinely remorseful, they will talk about all kinds of pain and all kinds of shame and all kinds of complicated emotions and horrible things that have happened to them, people who are not genuinely remorseful are really resistant to that. They really just want to keep compartmentalizing and sweeping it under the rug, right?

00:19:19:18 - 00:19:52:04
Speaker 3
And saying like, come on, honey, we just got to get through this. Or you know what? I just like you said, I want a clean start. I want to do over. Let's just focus on healing. Let's not keep talking about the affair. And to me, that's wild, because, if somebody was in giant car accident and they broke every bone in their body, would we tell them after six months, like, okay, you never get to talk about the accident anymore, like you're beyond that or, know, classic one I use with my clients is so we just get somebody out of a prison camp and we, you know, take them home, we give them a good

00:19:52:05 - 00:20:08:14
Speaker 3
meal, we put some warm clothes on them, and then we expect them to never talk about what happened again. No. If somebody's been through something traumatic, you get to talk about that for as long as you need to talk about it. Now, there might be balance, right? Like ten years out. We might be saying, okay, your partner's done all of this work.

00:20:08:14 - 00:20:13:01
Speaker 3
How much attention do we want to keep giving this? But it's never off the table.

00:20:13:01 - 00:20:42:01
Speaker 4
I so agree with that. And I can appreciate you've done something wrong and you feel bad about it. And your partner brings it up constantly, throws it in your face constantly. I can appreciate there is a point where somebody needs to say like, listen, you know, are you sure you're actually able to get over this? I don't think there's any fault in the person not being able to get over it, but you do need to hit a point where you're like, okay, I can't get past this or I can, but the person's behavior, the perpetrators behavior matters.

00:20:42:02 - 00:21:00:10
Speaker 4
What I see is men who are so pissed off about the consequences, including the consequence of you needing to say it out loud or ask questions. Right. The details aren't going to help you. You're just using it so you can, get all up in my business and you're just you just want all the details to hurt yourself. I hear the most crazy things.

00:21:00:10 - 00:21:05:06
Speaker 4
That is a man who does not feel bad at all. Stop talking about it is no remorse.

00:21:05:07 - 00:21:25:09
Speaker 3
Yeah, that's right? Anytime somebody is saying something like that, I encourage anybody to push back on that and just say no, I have the right to talk about this. You really hurt me. I want to go through the details. I have a right to know the details. Yeah, we could debate how many details, but you have the right to these things.

00:21:25:09 - 00:21:39:23
Speaker 3
And so with your the people that you take care of, like I would encourage them to always be cautious. Right. Because one of the things that always scares me is the lethality of abusers. Right? So yes, push and also be safe.

00:21:39:23 - 00:22:02:04
Speaker 4
I agree, I think that there are times where you might be pushing for details and he's not willing to give them. That's information. The lack of detail being given to you when you're asking is already information, and that if he really was sorry, perhaps, you know, again, the context being that he's abusive, perhaps he would be sharing more information with you because he'd want you to get past it.

00:22:02:04 - 00:22:17:12
Speaker 4
And if more information would help you, it's like maybe he thinks more information wouldn't help him, so he thinks you don't need it. We're all individuals here. I know for me, I would want details. Now, would I stew on those details? Probably. I don't know that I could ever get past that. Everybody certainly. Does

00:22:17:12 - 00:22:18:04
Speaker 3
stew on them.

00:22:18:04 - 00:22:36:01
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah, but it makes sense. But I think that sometimes this is about damage control, right? Like, don't be telling your friends and family that I did this because we're staying together and I don't want people to see me badly. Well, that's damage control. He's not he's he's evading accountability with other people, knowing, like you were happy to cheat.

00:22:36:01 - 00:22:38:08
Speaker 4
Now you don't want people to know that you cheated. Interesting.

00:22:38:09 - 00:23:01:14
Speaker 3
And again, there's a spectrum of responses, right? Like I frequently tell people, don't tell everybody that, you know, he cheated because then it's going to complicate a lot of your relationships. But it's not because I want to protect the person who cheated. It's because I want to protect you from having to constantly be basted in talking about the affair and losing your support system.

00:23:01:15 - 00:23:21:13
Speaker 3
You have the right to tell whoever you want to tell. But picking up on something you said a minute ago, like the number one thing I would tell people to look for is defensiveness and dismissiveness. If somebody is not willing to talk about the affair and they're constantly being dismissive and defensive, that is not a safe partner for you to heal with.

00:23:21:14 - 00:23:35:19
Speaker 3
They have to be willing to take accountability. If they're not willing to do that now, we can have them take accountability with compassion. But if they're not willing to take accountability, or they're just willing to do it for five minutes, that is not a person who's really interested in healing from this behavior.

00:23:35:20 - 00:23:59:19
Speaker 4
you're absolutely right. Those are the things that I think so many women need to hear. Because cheating and then some people get past it, it's hopeful and it's interesting. You know, people see hope is such a good thing. I despise hope in my context. I hate hope because think generally it is false hope when you see these behaviors. I don't think cheating equals there's no hope.

00:23:59:19 - 00:24:11:00
Speaker 4
I think that when you're being abused, cheating is just yet another thing he's doing to you. And if we're holding on to hope that he stops, hope that he changes, hope that he feels bad with his hope doing for you. Nothing.

00:24:11:00 - 00:24:41:18
Speaker 3
I think that's a great point. You know, if you look at the totality of the behaviors. Right. So it's not just the affair, it's the financial control, it's the isolation. It's the gaslighting of you. It's the diminishing of you. It's keeping you separate from your family and friends. It's constantly belittling you. It's all of these things. You know, you could be sorry for the affair and still have 98 other things that you're doing that are abusing your partner.

00:24:41:18 - 00:24:48:19
Speaker 3
So look at, you know, I think this is your line. Look at the patterns, not the promises. That's so critical.

00:24:48:20 - 00:25:05:03
Speaker 4
It absolutely is. When you can step back and look at everything that's happening kind of all together, because you see this lack of accountability that we're talking about here. But where else is that showing up in your relationship? One thing. This is an expression I wish I'd coined it. I wish I was smart enough to have coined this, but I love it.

00:25:05:04 - 00:25:14:18
Speaker 4
It's when you catch a narcissist cheating. He'll never trust you again. And I always feel like, listen to that twice, right? He cheated and he'll never trust you again. If

00:25:14:18 - 00:25:33:23
Speaker 3
now you know, right now you know who he really is. And now you've seen that dark passenger. And now that you know that he won't be able to pull as much over your head, right, or get as much by you, so you're no longer safe for him and controllable for him as he would like you to be. They're

00:25:33:23 - 00:25:56:07
Speaker 4
so worried about retaliation, you know, and you making them look stupid so often. They'll they'll cheat again. They'll the abuse will get worse. And in fact, I've heard things where like, if you forgive him the first time and no, no shade to anyone who forgives because man, you know we want to see the, the remorse. In our partner. The best in them.

00:25:56:07 - 00:26:21:07
Speaker 4
And they're apologizing. And it sounds like all the things that you and I are saying, right. Sounds like accountability. He's going to see a therapist. He apologized. He owned it. Sure. But if he does it again, you know he's going to keep doing it forever. It's I don't believe always once a cheater, always a cheater. But the type that you can kind of see, like he'll do it once, he'll apologize, he'll beg you.

00:26:21:07 - 00:26:40:22
Speaker 4
And then he does it again and he does it again. And he will keep doing it again. Because when you don't leave him, he sees it as permission. And I think somebody who is truly narcissistic, which they they aren't all but the ones that are kind of pathological about it, it's like she knows I cheat. This is just this thing we do where I cheat.

00:26:40:22 - 00:26:43:17
Speaker 4
She gets mad, I say, I won't do it again, and we both know I'm

00:26:43:17 - 00:26:44:18
Speaker 3
going to. This is.

00:26:44:20 - 00:26:47:08
Speaker 4
Where they have that attitude. Yes. Yeah,

00:26:47:08 - 00:27:13:22
Speaker 3
some of them absolutely do. Right. I mean, I think anybody is capable of, I should say, almost anybody learning and growing and changing at any point. But do they. Right. So, you know, if, infidelity is part of an abusive pattern that you're in, not stand alone infidelity. And maybe that's a very nuanced conversation, but let's just say infidelity is a pattern and it keeps happening.

00:27:14:02 - 00:27:33:22
Speaker 3
Then if nothing is happening to disrupt that pattern, why would the pattern stop? Right, right. So the infidelity is serving a purpose. It's doing something for the person. Let's say it's serving a painkiller, right? As a painkiller. It's helping them in some way. It's giving them something they want or need. So they have to want to choose a different painkiller.

00:27:33:22 - 00:27:58:01
Speaker 3
And why would they want to do that if the painkiller is working now, one way could be that you leave and they have to change. Another, better way depending on the situation would be if they realize the magnitude of the harm that this is causing and find different ways of regulating their emotions and, you know, coping strategies. with the population that you're taking care of, probably the behaviors are pretty extreme.

00:27:58:01 - 00:28:04:19
Speaker 3
So odds are low that these people will change without something hugely dramatic happening.

00:28:04:19 - 00:28:28:04
Speaker 4
Which I want to be clear. Is not you threatening to leave or like moving out for two weeks? I think honestly, like, it has pretty much been studied and reported many times from many different studies, that the biggest pieces in the world that will hold these men accountable for abuse is the justice system. Yes, it's not really divorce. It's not really financial loss, you know.

00:28:28:07 - 00:28:53:22
Speaker 4
Yes, a little bit. But the justice system and sadly, you know, cheating is not illegal. So you're not really going to get criminal justice for that. Some abuse is illegal physical abuse, obviously coercive control depending, but it's hard to prove. And we're not going to get justice necessarily through those forms. But I think there, you know, if he genuinely is sorry, demonstrates remorse, takes all the steps.

00:28:53:22 - 00:29:10:15
Speaker 4
You feel like he cares, not you wish he cared. I always sort of ask people to step back a little bit and think about, do you do you just wish that he cared? Is that why it feels like maybe he does? Are you flip flopping? Sometimes he cares. Sometimes he doesn't. Because someone who cares would care all the time, Right.

00:29:10:16 - 00:29:39:22
Speaker 3
Caring doesn't toggle on and off, right. And the biggest thing that maybe your listeners could really be thinking about is their nervous systems. Like, how are they feeling? Are they feeling safe most of the time? Are they feeling unsafe constantly? And I would assume they're feeling unsafe constantly because there's so many problematic behaviors that are going on. Somebody that is behaving in safer ways for you that should translate to your nervous system.

00:29:39:22 - 00:30:03:03
Speaker 3
Now, if you've been traumatized, you might really struggle with that. But pay attention to how you're feeling. What is your gut telling you? If you're constantly feeling unsafe, this is probably an abusive relationship, and if the promise is to change, never actually turn into real, lasting change, then that's, you know, a pie crust promise, right? Easily made, easily broken.

00:30:03:03 - 00:30:31:22
Speaker 3
And you're very right about the law enforcement finding that most of these people will not change because the behavior is so entrenched and the entitlement and belief systems are so deep, they won't change unless an outside authority makes them change. And that's law enforcement. And even then, haven't looked this up recently, but when I used to look these things up, even then, the probability of permanent lasting change is low.

00:30:32:00 - 00:30:52:13
Speaker 4
That's important to note. I agree with you completely. I think abuse is such an ingrained thing. It's so rare and like we want to be the exception, you know, and I don't know if this is a real statistic, but I looked up years ago and it said something like 16% of couples can overcome an affair. You probably would say it's higher regardless of the higher.

00:30:52:17 - 00:30:56:00
Speaker 4
Great. I'm glad you know. And it could be 80%.

00:30:56:00 - 00:30:56:19
Speaker 3
It depends.

00:30:56:20 - 00:31:16:22
Speaker 4
Yeah it does, but no matter what the percentage is, it's like, are you happy? Do you trust this person? You know, because if the if the behavior continues certainly obviously the cheating. But even if after the cheating, it's like you can't bring it up and and there's no accountability for them and there's no way you can make them stop.

00:31:17:00 - 00:31:39:20
Speaker 4
You know, it's the mindset that's not going to change. That's why you see the, the blame shifting so prevalent. You know, the justification of you didn't sleep with me often enough. You you're insecure. She threw herself at me. Whatever story he comes up with, it's never just that he did it because he's weak and he wanted to or he wanted to hurt you.

00:31:39:20 - 00:32:00:02
Speaker 4
It's never going to be just a blanket reason. He's always got to come up with things. Now, reframing the behavior as your fault, right? That being, I would argue, the most common thing that these guys do. Why do you think that works so well? What do you see in the person who's been victimized by this? Why are we willing to take that on as our own failure?

00:32:00:06 - 00:32:22:19
Speaker 3
I think many of us, in particularly women historically have been socialized to believe that a lot of things are our fault and take responsibility for a lot of things. And as a result, it's much easier to say, oh, this was something that I caused. It also gives us this illusion of control. If I caused it, then I can stop it.

00:32:22:20 - 00:32:51:08
Speaker 3
See, I'll just be better and we'll have more sex, and I'll make sure we always have dinner at 6:00 or whatever. and therefore I can protect us. And and that is not fair. In fact, one of the things you said just a second ago was so critical, it was if you hear your partner taking accountability, I did this because I wanted to because it made me feel good, it made me feel strong and powerful, and it made me feel like I was, you know, valuable.

00:32:51:09 - 00:33:07:10
Speaker 3
That's a sign of somebody who has some insight and wants to do the work to change. If what you're hearing is blame. Like you, you made me do this. Of course I have needs. What are you thinking? That is not a person who is ready to change. That is a person who's completely putting it all on Yeah,

00:33:07:11 - 00:33:25:00
Speaker 4
but do watch for the ones that sound like, you know, because we got those clients to write. Like, I know, I know, I'm bad, I did it, I cheated, and I'm wrong. I'm sorry. But even then, like, okay, so what are you going to do about it? Right. Are you going to go to therapy behavior. Yeah, yeah. What's the what's going to be different now.

00:33:25:01 - 00:33:44:02
Speaker 3
And see if they are driving that process. Right. Don't you make the therapy appointments for them. Don't you buy all the books and find all the podcasts and whatever? If they really want to change, they will make the effort to do that, right? People make the effort to do all sorts of things. They get up at like 4:00 in the morning to go ice fishing.

00:33:44:06 - 00:34:05:05
Speaker 3
I don't know why sounds awful, but they get it four in the morning. They've got drills, they've got thermoses, they've got fancy hats and lures. People can make the effort for what they care about. So somebody wants to heal. Look at the efforts that they themselves make. Not that you pressure them to make. And yeah, nobody's pressuring on this.

00:34:05:07 - 00:34:27:12
Speaker 3
Yeah, you know, important note is healing from infidelity in the context. You're talking about it with somebody who's abusive. The likelihood of somebody healing is really low. But in the context of the people that I take care of, it's higher because these are people who truly want heal and they have 1 or 2 affairs. These are not people who have 17 and think it's no big deal, right?

00:34:27:13 - 00:34:30:00
Speaker 3
The thinking it's no big deal. It's a massive problem.

00:34:30:00 - 00:35:01:16
Speaker 4
Yeah, the serial cheating aspect of it and the like. I'm a man, aren't I? It listen, you know who? I don't care what gender cheating is wrong. Now, probably a whole episode on its own about in an abusive relationship. Sometimes the victim of abuse cheese which is still wrong and I listen any client that I've had that has been in that situation where they cheated on the perpetrator of abuse, they feel horrible about themselves, like they've just betrayed and again, not justifying it, but no, explore the reasons.

00:35:01:16 - 00:35:24:08
Speaker 4
And I suggest to anyone like go to therapy and look at a what keeps you in a relationship that you're not happy in, or that you can't leave because maybe you're stuck, but regardless. You know, explore that because I see the victims of that exploring and considering and looking at it and being so. Yeah. And now they're being monitored and stalked and all kinds of things because of what they've done.

00:35:24:08 - 00:35:40:20
Speaker 4
But again, if it was reversed, he wouldn't. These guys are not okay with, you know, okay. Let's turn your location on now to build some transparency. It's like, what, are you stalking me now? They don't want that because they don't actually care. Yeah. If you're forgiving them or not they really don't. Well,

00:35:40:20 - 00:36:14:13
Speaker 3
they don't find value in rebuilding your safety. They are mostly focused on what they need. Right. Somebody that's truly sorry and wants to change will very much want you to feel safer and feel better. Right. They won't mock you for wanting this. The phenomenon you're talking about is something in attachment theory we call the burnt out pursuer. So a burnt out pursuer is somebody who's been pursuing their partner for so long, trying to get safety and connection and affection and comfort, and eventually they just give up, right?

00:36:14:14 - 00:36:48:06
Speaker 3
And they're feeling so worthless and devalued that they have an affair because they want to know that someone else does find them lovable or valuable or attractive or interesting. And so they often will have the affair, and then they get a little more confidence. They're like, oh, someone else actually thinks I'm pretty great. It's not true that what my partner says, that no one would want me, and I'm completely disgusting and all this stuff, they often then find the courage to leave so people will once in a while ask me, is an affair ever the right thing?

00:36:48:06 - 00:37:01:10
Speaker 3
And I'm never going to say yes. But in the back of my mind I think I can understand why the burnt out pursuer does this. They want proof that they are lovable and valuable, and that they could have a life on the other side of this.

00:37:01:12 - 00:37:18:08
Speaker 4
Yeah, and I get that, you know, like I do. And again, I know we're not saying like yeah. So there you go. There's your explanation. It's not okay. It's just a reason. We touched on something earlier that I feel like again could be its whole own thing. But sex addiction I think is an interesting one because most people don't know what that is.

00:37:18:09 - 00:37:38:07
Speaker 4
And I will raise my hand that, you know, four years ago, I didn't know what that was. Yeah, I think that it's now actually. And I also discovered that some people don't think it's real and some people do. That's true. I, I'm in the I think it's real camp. However yeah I'm not a clinician and I know you are and I'm sure no leaps and bounds more than me on this topic.

00:37:38:07 - 00:37:43:02
Speaker 4
But there are abusive men that just say, well, I'm a sex addict.

00:37:43:03 - 00:38:02:10
Speaker 3
So what are you doing to treat that right? Wonderful story. Okay. So it's equivalent. So you know. Yes. In fact, when I talk to people who are sex therapist and specialize in this, some of them don't believe sex addiction is real, I think it tends to be helpful to describe a pattern of behavior, but basically like alcoholism, right?

00:38:02:10 - 00:38:29:08
Speaker 3
Where you get into this pattern of chasing sex. or attention or validation love so that you can get some dopamine and feel better. Okay. Same thing happens with drug addiction. You get on this kind of dopamine cycle. Same thing happens with alcoholism okay. So it's an addiction. What are we doing to treat it? Just because an addiction doesn't mean you get a, you know, a free pass to go on and do this forever.

00:38:29:08 - 00:38:30:11
Speaker 3
You should be treating

00:38:30:13 - 00:39:00:01
Speaker 4
Yeah. And you're not treating it by saying stop bringing up what I did. God, you never get over anything, right? That's the worst possible response. Doctor Peter Salerno once said this to me, and it wasn't in the context of cheating per se. He was just talking about the way that people who are pathological or highly narcissistic, they really believe that the problem is that you keep talking about it like there is no problem if you would just zip it, you know, and I see that so much in this, in this framing of like, I cheated.

00:39:00:01 - 00:39:03:11
Speaker 4
Okay, fine. I'm sorry. God, get over it. They just want.

00:39:03:11 - 00:39:05:12
Speaker 3
You to stop thinking. Yeah, yeah.

00:39:05:15 - 00:39:07:05
Speaker 4
If only you. Worked right.

00:39:07:06 - 00:39:16:05
Speaker 3
Like, let's come up with a parallel. If only you would not write me a ticket for crashing my car into people. Everything would be fine.

00:39:16:11 - 00:39:18:05
Speaker 4
Really? Just get over it.

00:39:18:07 - 00:39:20:13
Speaker 3
What version of reality are. You living

00:39:20:15 - 00:39:43:17
Speaker 4
Exactly. It's crazy making the dismissiveness you actually brought, like, two points that are so key. I think these are the key takeaways. Truthfully, the defensiveness and the dismissiveness are some of the biggest indicators because again, some guys will just instantly be angry, blame you, gaslight you, and some will perform remorse and apologize. Some will go to therapy, some will say they'll go, some will refuse.

00:39:43:20 - 00:40:04:22
Speaker 4
All of these people, abusive or narcissistic, doesn't matter. Labels are irrelevant. They all behave differently because they're human beings, despite many diagnoses or lack thereof. There human beings who will play you. And if guilt works on you, they'll make it your fault. And if anger shuts you down, then they'll make that. That's what they'll do. Like it?

00:40:05:00 - 00:40:12:02
Speaker 4
They know you. They are studying you. So the the excuses will be just as customized as the abuse. You know.

00:40:12:03 - 00:40:36:19
Speaker 3
That's very true. Tragically true. And, you. Know. Always be safe and put your safety at the top of the list. But, you know, push back on a lot of this stuff and maybe even just internally, you are not responsible for somebody else's behavior, whether you've gained weight or not, whether you're as pretty as you were or not, whether you're doing as much or not, whether you're interesting or not.

00:40:36:20 - 00:40:58:00
Speaker 3
Like Beyonce Wright, Jay-Z cheated on Beyonce. If Jay-Z can cheat on Beyonce and Beyonce can experience this, anyone could experience this, right? And there's plenty of other examples. So it is not your fault that someone cheated on you. That is a behavior they chose. They didn't ask you if they could do it, so therefore they're responsible.

00:40:58:00 - 00:41:19:16
Speaker 3
And even if you forgave them the first time and said, let's try to work through this and they do it again, you are still not responsible because it is still their behavior, not yours. You're responsible for your choices. And you might say, okay, so and this is really hard to do, but you might say, I need to just observe what they do when I don't direct things.

00:41:19:16 - 00:41:39:16
Speaker 3
And I will get a lot of information from that if they come to me, if they want to talk about the affair, if they ask me how I'm doing, if they, you know, are looking at the books and the podcasts and signing up for an avoidant men's workshop and whatever, like if they're interested in changing, I will see the data that supports that.

00:41:39:16 - 00:41:43:21
Speaker 3
If they're not interested in changing, I will also see the data that supports that.

00:41:44:00 - 00:42:04:06
Speaker 4
Yeah, I completely agree. It becomes obvious, but I will say obviously, and we both know this when you're in it, it's like you can't see two inches from your face when it comes to this, because you want him to be truly sorry. I think even in the cases where he's not apologizing and he's blaming you, it's not like you consciously want it to be your fault.

00:42:04:06 - 00:42:22:09
Speaker 4
You just feel more in control because now you can just sleep with him more often and he won't cheat. Or you can lose 10 pounds and he won't cheat or clean the house. But none of these things are actually true now. Women are told, right? Oh he cheated. Leave him girl, just leave him. You know. Why doesn't that work in an abusive dynamic?

00:42:22:09 - 00:42:23:02
Speaker 4
Do you think.

00:42:23:05 - 00:42:50:18
Speaker 3
It doesn't work in any dynamic? Honestly, it just makes the person feel less supported and less understood. Like leave him is such a. It's such a simplistic answer for one of the most complicated problems. Okay, so I live here, I've got kids here. My money is all tied up with this other person. I might not be working. You know, my children, my dogs, my llamas, my whatever are here.

00:42:50:20 - 00:43:13:02
Speaker 3
Like. How. Am I going to do that? The process of dismantling that is so huge. Saying leave him is equivalent to saying just fly to Mars, right? It's just not realistic. A better thing for somebody to say is trust yourself and take care of yourself. Like get the support you need and deserve and start working with a therapist.

00:43:13:02 - 00:43:23:07
Speaker 3
And how can I help you? And whatever, whatever you need. I'm here for however long this takes. I'm here with you. I got you right. Like I'll help you. However I can.

00:43:23:13 - 00:43:40:06
Speaker 4
Yeah. It's so true. You know you'll you'll feel something. I really want women to know that you will feel a difference in this. When you love someone. I know you want the version of them that that gets it. And you know the version that he wakes up and he tells the truth and he understands what he did.

00:43:40:06 - 00:44:02:10
Speaker 4
And. But your own healing can't depend on him being honest or him being truly remorseful. You have no control over that. Real remorse is consistent, and real repair is uncomfortable. So accountability is not going to blame you. That's not what it looks like. It really, it really doesn't. Thank you so much for bringing your expertise to this conversation.

00:44:02:11 - 00:44:14:00
Speaker 4
You know, I know it's a complicated subject, deeply complicated subject, but betrayal is painful enough. So I don't want women to betray themselves to survive that. Yeah.

00:44:14:01 - 00:44:15:18
Speaker 3
So tell me. Great chatting with you.

00:44:15:19 - 00:44:18:08
Speaker 4
Yeah, yeah. You too. Tell me where people can find you.

00:44:18:10 - 00:44:36:22
Speaker 3
Where can you find me? All right. People are welcome to come to my website. Doctor Kathy Nickerson. I'm on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook at Doctor Kathy Nickerson. So Google me, you should find me. And if you know you're interested in checking out one of my books, they're on Amazon.

00:44:37:00 - 00:44:38:23
Speaker 4
Amazing. Thank you so much.

00:44:39:00 - 00:44:40:17
Speaker 3
You're so welcome, my

00:44:40:19 - 00:44:50:07
Speaker 5
If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:44:50:09 - 00:44:53:11
Speaker 6
Stronger than before.