The Most Effective Way To Lie | Dr. Abbie Maroño | S4E12

The Most Effective Way To Lie | Dr. Abby Minaro If you’ve ever felt like something was off but couldn’t quite put your finger on the lie, this episode reveals exactly how abusers craft believable deception. Lisa Sonni sits down with behavioral scientist, author, and deception expert Dr. Abby Minaro (Dr. Abby Morono) to unpack the strategic psychology behind lying. They explore how abusers use “grains of truth,” context removal, and emotional framing to manipulate reality, making their lies far more convincing than outright fabrications. 

Dr. Minaro breaks down the difference between convincing and conveying, the pre-event, event, and post-event patterns that expose deception, and why the halo effect makes harmful people seem trustworthy. The conversation also highlights the role of shame, self-doubt, and radicalization-like tactics in abuse, while emphasizing that the strongest protection isn’t becoming a detective — it’s rebuilding self-trust, self-love, and the confidence to leave when something feels unsafe. A powerful, eye-opening episode for anyone ready to see manipulation clearly and trust themselves again.

Transcript

00:00:00:13 - 00:00:08:18
Lisa Sonni


00:00:08:20 - 00:00:17:22
Lisa Sonni
This is Real Talk With Lisa Sonni: Relationships Uncensored, the podcast they don't want you listening to.

00:00:18:00 - 00:00:49:02
Lisa Sonni
Today I am having back on the show Doctor Abbie Manoro, and I am actually so excited for this conversation. Her mind is absolutely incredible and we'll get into that. I'm going to introduce her in a moment, but we're talking today about how abusers use grains of truth to create a really effective and believable lie, and Doctor Abbie's work around deception and manipulation and just how people mislead others is so important, because I think a lot of people think that lying is a really obvious thing.

00:00:49:05 - 00:01:13:21
Lisa Sonni
Deception is clear. You know, a lot of victims of abuse are expected to have just known better and to have, I don't know, been a human lie detector. But I think what's really interesting is that a lot of covert abusers and really effective liars used grains of truth to build a lie that sounds so believable, like a skilled deceiver is a lot more strategic than just simply saying something that isn't true.

00:01:13:21 - 00:01:37:14
Lisa Sonni
They don't always just avoid the truth. I think more often than not, they use the truth to build it. It's like the way that they tell the story and sort of carve out a detailed story about where they were or what they said or what really happened. That just isn't true. And really, this episode was actually inspired by something that Doctor George Simon said to me in a previous interview about abusers using grains of truth.

00:01:37:14 - 00:01:49:01
Lisa Sonni
And so I wanted to have this conversation, and I thought of no one better than Doctor Abbie. Can I have you just introduce yourself? Because you have quite an impressive background that I think more people need to know about.

00:01:49:02 - 00:02:09:16
Dr. Abbie Marono
Thank you. It's great to be back. I'm doctor Abbie. I'm the CEO of Doctor Abbie Enterprises. I'm a behavioral scientist, a keynote speaker and author, and I am a professor. I was a professor when I was 23, and I've trained 29 federal agencies, including Secret Service, FBI, homeland and Interpol.

00:02:09:18 - 00:02:31:17
Lisa Sonni
Well, damn right. How incredible. Like, what an amazing background. You you clearly know what you're talking about. just so excited for this, because I think you have such a great perspective on the way that people lie. And we've done a previous episode where we really talked about sort of the science of deception, and I kind of want to get deeper into this about how they build the lies.

00:02:31:17 - 00:02:41:06
Lisa Sonni
So can we talk about how they don't necessarily avoid truth? In what ways do you see abusive people or even criminals weaponize the truth?

00:02:41:10 - 00:03:03:13
Dr. Abbie Marono
Yeah. One thing I do want to start with is when we're learning this stuff, we think obviously the information comes from science, but I'm also a big believer in experience guiding us to, and I am where I am because of what I have been through in my life as well as my education. Now, we don't have to believe everything we've been through otherwise we completely biased.

00:03:03:13 - 00:03:28:14
Dr. Abbie Marono
But taking into consideration our life learning and the science is really important. And that's kind of what led me into trying to understand why people lie from difficult relationships and difficult interactions. And really the best way to think about it, that can be the overall okay, how to spot a liar? Because there's no one thing how to spot a liar.

00:03:28:14 - 00:03:55:13
Dr. Abbie Marono
But if we're going to take the best method, it's really this simple. Liars convince, truth tellers convey if I'm lying, I know I'm lying. So I need to convince you of the truth. So the strategies seem like convincing. And if I'm telling the truth, I'm trying to convey information. So in both ways, I'm trying to give you information.

00:03:55:13 - 00:04:06:09
Dr. Abbie Marono
But the psychology behind providing that to you is slightly different. And you can tell little differences in the way the information is presented.

00:04:06:10 - 00:04:33:21
Lisa Sonni
That is fascinating. I think, you know, my mind obviously replays personal experiences, but even those of my clients where I don't know, an abuser will say, like you yelled two and it's true you yelled, but you're removing the context and making it like we're both abusers. Or a very personal example, when my ex would be like, oh, I went to a bar after work, okay, but you went to a bar and also you went with women and you left the bar and went somewhere else, but you skipped that part.

00:04:33:21 - 00:04:41:21
Lisa Sonni
But it's the truth because, okay, I didn't tell you every single detail, but I did go to the bar. So there's a grain of truth. Yes, but it's still a lie.

00:04:42:01 - 00:05:09:22
Dr. Abbie Marono
Yeah. And the kind of pattern to it is this we have a pre-event. So things before the event say, I'm asking you where you were at 8 p.m.. Right. So the pre-event might be 5 p.m., six, seven, and then we have the event in question and then we have post event. So after the event has occurred and we see this in, you know, personal relationships, but let's take interrogations mostly.

00:05:10:02 - 00:05:34:06
Dr. Abbie Marono
The pre-event is not necessarily related to that moment. So someone who is trying to convince you of truth, they need to show you they are a truth teller, right? I need to convince you my information is believable. You can trust what I say. Someone who is trying to convey the information just needs you to believe that that information.

00:05:34:07 - 00:05:55:12
Dr. Abbie Marono
I don't need you to believe I'm a truth teller. I just need you to believe that fact. So if we look at pre-event and we look at where liars versus truth tellers spend most of their time, if I'm trying to convince you of a lie, convince you that my character is one of truth. I'm going to spend a lot of time kind of preempting that.

00:05:55:12 - 00:06:14:05
Dr. Abbie Marono
So I might give you excess detail before the event. You know how I got ready, where I got ready, how long this took, blah, blah, blah, all of this excess detail, if you ask me, where we were at eight. Well, before I did, I did this, I did this. I did this, I did this because I'm showing you, look how much I'm telling you all these truths.

00:06:14:08 - 00:06:41:21
Dr. Abbie Marono
I may even, like, admit to a little thing in there to show you. Look, look, look, I'm trustworthy. And then the event. So with truth tellers, I don't need to give you all of that. What we tend to see is not a huge amount of pre-event information. Now we have event. Liars tend to kind of skip over very fast. I just give you the basics because I know the more complicated it is, the more I have to remember of what I've said, and the more that could kind of catch me out.

00:06:42:00 - 00:07:08:00
Dr. Abbie Marono
Truth tellers tend to spend most of their time in the explanation on this chunk. This is the most important one. then we have post event, which is usually emotions afterwards. People who are lying don't generally give that like emotional aftermath. And if they do, it's so detailed. Truth tellers do give a little emotional aftermath, but it's just not like exceptionally detailed.

00:07:08:00 - 00:07:33:18
Dr. Abbie Marono
So on the liar side, it's either very detailed or just none. And then on the truth teller, it's enough that it kind of reliving the story, and there's a natural amount of emotion that will come with that. And that's kind of the pattern. More above failure is kind of skipping over the story, like giving you the bare minimum and then kind of skipping over the emotion or again, convincing. See very different pattern with true tellers.

00:07:33:21 - 00:07:57:03
Lisa Sonni
That is actually so fascinating. And honestly, I thought in my brain when you were talking the way that abusers accuse their victim of lying and then you become very defensive, you don't like how this person is claiming that you're a liar or dishonest or sneaky or cheating and you're not, and they flip it, and then you become so defensive that you're over explaining, and then they use that.

00:07:57:03 - 00:08:00:06
Lisa Sonni
You're over explaining to be like, see, you're a liar.

00:08:00:10 - 00:08:23:19
Dr. Abbie Marono
Yeah. And a really great one is they will find an area, say they've cheated on you, right? They will find an area where you have done something in your past that causes them some discomfort. Now, maybe you, like, had something with someone that they know, something that is uncomfortable for them or something you did wrong and they will use that.

00:08:23:20 - 00:08:42:17
Dr. Abbie Marono
Yeah. What? I did this and you did that and they're going to blow up how bad that thing you did like. Yeah. But I knew he was my friend. You don't know how much that hurts. All these things, anything they can do, they're going to blow up how difficult it is for them to deal with that. Because now we can equal. Well, you

00:08:42:17 - 00:09:04:10
Dr. Abbie Marono
did wrong. I did wrong, even if it's completely different. And then if you say that's completely different, oh, well, it's always different, isn't it? It's always different for you. It's a different case. Go on. It's it's always for you. So we see this where they make something that is different, comparable. And then when you say well it's different now you're on the wrong.

00:09:04:11 - 00:09:08:15
Dr. Abbie Marono
Oh okay. One rule for you. One rule for me. Is it. So now you're the bad guy.

00:09:08:19 - 00:09:26:17
Lisa Sonni
It's a talking talking. To my ex, honestly. I mean, that was such a that was. Where were you all these years ago? But this is such a pattern. [You’re talking to my ex} It's so true. All of our exes. Because I swear, too many women have been with this man. That's what I see in my comment section all the time. Like, were we dating the same guy?

00:09:26:18 - 00:09:29:21
Lisa Sonni
I mean, I wouldn't put it past any of these guys.

00:09:29:22 - 00:09:54:18
Dr. Abbie Marono
What is. Kind of thing about that? Is this what we dating the same guy thing of? Do they all share the same personality? In a way, yes. And no personality? No. These are behavioral patterns. It is very, very common. Yes, we all have dated someone with these behavioral patterns in general. And the reason is because it's easy. You have the root of accountability, which is where patterns differ.

00:09:54:19 - 00:10:16:22
Dr. Abbie Marono
If I'm going to take accountability now, I am in charge of this, right? I made a mistake. And that's where the patterns kind of differ because the behavior differs. If I'm going to gaslight, if I'm going to push that responsibility on you, the easier route patterns are same. We're just paying the game. So that's why we're like, we all dated the same guy.

00:10:17:02 - 00:10:31:04
Dr. Abbie Marono
Yes, because they all took instead of taking their part, they all took the same part. So it seems like the same personality and it's just the same pattern in all of them that we're seeing. Right?

00:10:31:05 - 00:11:00:08
Lisa Sonni
Sneaky. Like it's so we all need to be like behavioral analysis and like yeah, you know, learn all these patterns. It's it's awful to sort of sort through this when you're in it. I think that they're so good at using the truth to get you to move the conversation away from the actual pattern, which is why so many people say, like the proof is in the pattern, because that's what they want to deflect you from by using, you know, control and intimidation and pieces of truth and entitlement and punishment.

00:11:00:08 - 00:11:02:18
Lisa Sonni
Fear. It's it's crazy making.

00:11:02:19 - 00:11:23:13
Dr. Abbie Marono
Yeah. And this is why. So in my first book, it seems like it's unrelated to my second books. My first book is about trauma recovery, emotional regulation, self-help, and my second book is my influence and persuasion. People think they're very different and they're not. When it's self trust, one is building trust with others. If you want to avoid being influenced.

00:11:23:14 - 00:11:48:06
Dr. Abbie Marono
The number one biggest protection factor isn't being a behavioral analyst. The number one protective factor is healing in yourself. Because when these abusers use these techniques like you did wrong, I did wrongly, even...what I'm playing on is the shame you feel for what you've done is the shame you feel for your past, the shame you feel in yourself.

00:11:48:08 - 00:12:07:06
Dr. Abbie Marono
It's the low self-esteem. It's all these negative things you feel towards yourself. Do you feel like a bird? And a lot of us feel like with too much or not enough, and have to apologize simply for existing in a space and are just so desperate for love. They play on those things, and you could be the best behavior analysis in the world.

00:12:07:07 - 00:12:30:16
Dr. Abbie Marono
You could notice everything. Noticing doesn't mean you're leave. It doesn't mean you're going to stop doing those things. You can notice someone isn't right for you and so stay. And that's why that the best skill is that self work of understanding your patterns. And that's why I talk about empowerment as it's not the antithesis of shame. It is synonymous.

00:12:30:22 - 00:12:50:20
Dr. Abbie Marono
If we learn to understand our shame, understand why we feel that where it comes from, and learn to heal from it. I have a saying of being empowered means you can't use me against me. I know what I've done, I know who I am, and you can't throw my behavior at me because I, I know good people can do bad things.

00:12:50:21 - 00:13:09:08
Dr. Abbie Marono
Doesn't make me bad. I can change, I can grow, I can be not proud of something I've done. And now I'm still a good person. Once we get to that point where you can't use me against me, abusers can't use you, against you, and you can stand on your own two feet. And that feeling of why am I staying when I know I shouldn't?

00:13:09:09 - 00:13:30:01
Dr. Abbie Marono
It's the low self-esteem. It's the loss of confidence. It's that self-hatred. It's that shame. It's that lack of self-love. When we work on those things and we notice the patterns now, we go, you know what? I don't want this. I want better. So that hidden secret isn't always, what are they doing? It's what am I not doing for myself?

00:13:30:01 - 00:13:39:00
Dr. Abbie Marono
And when you have both, you can learn to recognize the patterns in them and do that in a work. That's the best package.

00:13:39:05 - 00:14:03:09
Lisa Sonni
Oh, I love that. Actually, We are so weaponized against ourselves when we are in relationships like this. Every they take everything that they know about you, all of your weaknesses, your vulnerabilities that you shared with them. And then they use it against you. And it's so connected to this distortion they're distorting you and all of the, I don't know the truth that they share the truth about you, the truth about where they were, what they said, all of it.

00:14:03:10 - 00:14:21:06
Lisa Sonni
It's not in service of understanding. It is in service of distortion. It's all to build this false story that you feel like you can't penetrate it because there was some grains of truth. And when you start to see the honesty that you were talking about in the way they use it in the in the pre-event, they're building that trust.

00:14:21:06 - 00:14:27:20
Lisa Sonni
So then everything that follows is going to sound true. Plus you add how much you want to believe your partner.

00:14:27:23 - 00:14:54:11
Dr. Abbie Marono
Yeah, yeah. And everything you're saying about this, like the identity, these grains of truth, this confusion that they, they kind of thrust upon you. It's the same technique that I have seen in my research of counter-terrorism. So what we see if I'm going to radicalize someone, if I need someone to believe my point of view, what I need to do is understand their point of view, and I need to strip it from them.

00:14:54:17 - 00:15:09:10
Dr. Abbie Marono
So I need to start making little dents in their sense of self, a little dense in their identity. If I'm an abuser and I see someone who is confident, what I'm going to do is I'm going to bring them in, okay? I love their confidence. I'm going to cherish these thing and I'm going to, you know, praise him for it.

00:15:09:10 - 00:15:28:12
Dr. Abbie Marono
And then I'm going to start kind of not not not not knocking at it. I'm going to start taking little things away. I'm going to start separating them from people. I'm going to start isolating them. I'm going to start making them question this and question that slowly. I'm going to strip those things away that matter to them and make them think they've lost them.

00:15:28:12 - 00:15:51:21
Dr. Abbie Marono
And once I can pull that identity away, I can start to feed in a new one radicalization. If I need you to believe that this view will save you, I need you lost. I need you broken so I can feed you in hope. And this hope. This is going to save you. This is going to make you good because you're so desperate for it.

00:15:51:23 - 00:16:14:18
Dr. Abbie Marono
We are desperate to belong as human beings. If I can strip you of that sense of self and then feed you in this new one, I feed you in this sense of belonging and love and fake safety, I can get you to do anything. And that's what we see. We see the same thing with terrorism as we do with abusive partners, just in a different context.

00:16:15:00 - 00:16:32:15
Lisa Sonni
That is like I. Had a physical reaction when you were talking, because then it's exactly what it feels like. And I think that if I could say anything to people who've never been in an abusive relationship, it's that that's how it happens. Everybody thinks I'm too confident for that to happen. To me, that's exactly what they're going to come for.

00:16:32:16 - 00:16:45:14
Lisa Sonni
Your confidence or anything that they seemed to like about you in the beginning suddenly becomes a problem. You become confused. They start introducing their reality, you trust them, and then you lose your own sense of reality. yeah.

00:16:45:14 - 00:17:10:07
Dr. Abbie Marono
And because it's small, if you're someone you and you identify as like, I'm a strong person, I'd never let someone do that to me when they do it just a little bit, enough that it pushes a boundary, but not enough that you can really stand and say, no, that's not right because they can gaslight you do it a little bit because now you had this boundary and they've just walked over it a little.

00:17:10:10 - 00:17:30:11
Dr. Abbie Marono
So now you're like, am I someone that sticks to what I believe in? Because they're starting to show you that you don't know you. And this is the worst part. We think the worst part is the physical side of, you know, feeling lost and having to start again. And, you know, we had this house together. We have kids together.

00:17:30:11 - 00:17:52:17
Dr. Abbie Marono
All these things like starting again. Actually, the hardest part is you don't trust yourself because if you believed I'm someone that can make a success out of my life, from someone that can do this, someone that can do that, we look to our behavior, as am I. When you do these things and you allow someone to treat you a certain way, you lose trust in yourself of

00:17:52:17 - 00:18:10:10
Dr. Abbie Marono
I don't really know who I am. And I thought they were this, but actually they're not. And I thought that I would never let this happen, but actually I did. So maybe I can't trust myself. And that loss of trust is so deep because once we lose trust in ourself to cling to that little bit of hope of okay, but one day I will.

00:18:10:11 - 00:18:31:03
Dr. Abbie Marono
It's hard because once we lose that, trust me, almost like give up of what's the point in fighting? I don't even know what I stand for anymore. I don't even know who I am and I don't even know how to trust myself. So we become like, passive in our life and passive in our decisions, as it's actually easier to let these bad things keep happening.

00:18:31:03 - 00:18:33:19
Dr. Abbie Marono
Because how can I trust myself to even get out of them?

00:18:33:19 - 00:18:53:03
Lisa Sonni
I that loss of self trust and believing that you know yourself, you know what's good for you. You know what's true. You know what's reality. You just said something so interesting too, because I hear this a lot also in my own experience, but with my clients, this idea of like, I know you, an abuser, will be like, I know you.

00:18:53:03 - 00:19:12:03
Lisa Sonni
And then they'll say things like, I know that you love coffee first thing in the morning. I know that you hate the sound of somebody eating loudly, I know you. And then and they say it in a way of like, you know, how dare you accuse me of lying to you? Or I know who you are and you start to think, yeah, you're right, you do know me.

00:19:12:05 - 00:19:34:00
Lisa Sonni
And then that's part of it. It doesn't even have to be an insult in the moment. It can feel loving. It can also feel threatening, I think. But it can feel very loving. He knows me. Oh, and then you trust more. This is the building of this person is someone who notices the small details. And they're right. They are telling the truth that they know these things about me.

00:19:34:00 - 00:19:40:08
Lisa Sonni
Therefore, maybe they also know whatever you're arguing about right now. And it just it's the way they introduce truth.

00:19:40:13 - 00:20:02:09
Dr. Abbie Marono
Also, think about what you just said in terms of drip feeding in lies and that self trust. If I know you and you're struggling with this self-identity sense of self trust, and I'm going to give you truth, I know this about you. I know this about you, I know this about you. And I'm going to drip feed in a lie.

00:20:02:10 - 00:20:25:05
Dr. Abbie Marono
I know you don't really care about this. Yes. And when you're lost and you're like, okay, yeah, he's right, he's right, he's right. Maybe I don't, you know, I've drip fed in a lie whilst showing you that we belong, this sense of connection and all these other truths. And then I drip feed in my little lie when you already are struggling,

00:20:25:05 - 00:20:44:11
Dr. Abbie Marono
like, do I trust me? Or do I trust him to understand me more than I understand me? So it's the combination of those two. When I'm telling you these things, it's like I'm rewriting your identity because I'm drip feeding in that this, you're this, you're this, you're this again smothered in truth but little lies.

00:20:44:17 - 00:21:14:14
Lisa Sonni
Oh. It is so true. It's it's this. It's a big picture. And you get lost in a small detail. Everybody thinks that they just come in and they start lying to you. And these lies are so obvious. Now, I asked you a question in the last episode that we recorded, and I almost want to ask you again, just so that people, if they haven't heard that episode, which they absolutely should to understand what you're talking about, sounds so cunning and, you know, intelligent and strategic and calculated.

00:21:14:14 - 00:21:30:00
Lisa Sonni
When isn't it, all of those things? When does it feel just sort of I don't know if natural is the right word, but it's just their instinct. They're not necessarily, oh, I'm going to drip feed lies and use partial truths. How does this just happen where it's not so intelligent?

00:21:30:01 - 00:21:48:01
Dr. Abbie Marono
It's so funny you asked that. I was about to make that my next point of when we're talking about these things, if they're doing this or doing this, they're doing this. What you can imagine in your head is so unlike over my pen. Okay. So they think this, they see this, they think this, they say this, they think this because it's so calculated.

00:21:48:01 - 00:22:19:11
Dr. Abbie Marono
So we imagine someone kind of creating a plan. The scariest thing is it's not true. So some people do sit and think, okay, like they almost make a plan, but they're the people learning how to get what they want. Most people that are abusive, they don't sit and think about it in the moment. They've kind of fine tuned their skills of last time I did this, I was able to trap them here.

00:22:19:15 - 00:22:47:10
Dr. Abbie Marono
Last time I did this. This was the reaction. So kind of learned through trial and error and a naturally more inclined to understand people like the people that are best at this are generally very, very intelligent, very intelligent people because they understand how people think and understand how people react. And it's so quick and fast. And as you're talking, they're listening for things maybe not even consciously of, okay, I can use this against them.

00:22:47:10 - 00:23:20:16
Dr. Abbie Marono
They just hear an instinctively they use it. So it's not this grand mastermind that we think these grand criminals like I always hear people say, like, oh, they didn't look like a monster. There's no such thing. You know, some people, some criminals you look at and you're that's a criminal. But most truly awful people that your brother, they're your father, they're your friend, they're your son, they're your wife. You know, truly malicious people are so good at painting themselves as non malicious.

00:23:20:16 - 00:23:44:17
Dr. Abbie Marono
And generally they do they do these things called white knight. So if I want to show you I'm trustworthy, if I want to convince you untrustworthy. Well, that's a great way to do that. Look how caring I am. Look how giving I am. I might do charity. I might be overly helpful. Overly kind. Because deep down it's not. I don't care if you dropped.

00:23:44:18 - 00:24:04:03
Dr. Abbie Marono
I don't want to help you pick it up. Oh, but I will because my whole image is securing my intentions. I'm this kind of like safety net around my malicious intentions that appears kind and wonderful and loving.

00:24:04:05 - 00:24:26:12
Lisa Sonni
And, you know, the truth is, they did help you pick something up. The truth is they did, you know, donate to charity. They are an upstanding member of the community. That is the truth. But the truth is also behind closed doors. They're abusive and awful and that they are doing these things outwardly for people to see for the purposes of reputation management.

00:24:26:12 - 00:24:43:20
Lisa Sonni
And that's the part that other people like, really. Kevin? Oh my God, I've never I could never imagine. That's the point. This brings up something so sarcastic in me, I have to admit. But you know how criminals don't admit to their crimes because they would go to jail like it just seems. So we can all understand that, right?

00:24:43:21 - 00:25:06:06
Lisa Sonni
If someone robs a bank, they're going to wear a mask. They're going to hide their face. They're going to spray something over the camera or knock the cameras out. That makes so much sense. But when it comes to domestic violence and abuse, it's like, but I could never imagine. But they're doing all of those things metaphorically. They're doing all of those things to manage and make it so that nobody would ever think metaphorically

00:25:06:06 - 00:25:07:20
Lisa Sonni
they have an alibi, right?

00:25:07:21 - 00:25:32:14
Dr. Abbie Marono
And it's also called the halo effect. So the halo effect is a cognitive bias that when we see one positive trait in a person, for example, beauty, we then assume positivity over other traits. Maybe she's kind, maybe she's warm, maybe she's soft and feminine and wonderful and lovely. Actually, she's evil monster, but she's just very pretty, you know?

00:25:32:14 - 00:25:58:21
Dr. Abbie Marono
So we see this one positive trait and we assume positivity over others so abusers can use this. If I am giving and I am charitable, that is a positive trait. But it doesn't mean I'm honest. Just because I have these positive traits doesn't mean I have positivity over other traits. But the brain likes to simplify because we like to understand quickly.

00:25:58:21 - 00:26:21:23
Dr. Abbie Marono
So if I can show you positivity here and something good here and something good here, I know that I can take this and I can use it to shield these negative because you're going to assume positivity here. Like I donate to every single cat charity that ever is in my eyesight. If I see a sad kitten or a sad cat, I'm a sucker.

00:26:22:04 - 00:26:45:07
Dr. Abbie Marono
If anyone is doing anything for a cat, I guarantee you I donate every month like I've adopted all sorts of random animals, like I've adopted donkeys and all sorts of things. I'm a sucker for that stuff. Does that mean that I'm honest? No. But if I want to convince you I'm a good, kind person and an honest person, I could show you that.

00:26:45:07 - 00:27:02:00
Dr. Abbie Marono
I could talk about And if I want to show you. Well, I'm great with kids, and I'm no threat to your child. Look how much I love animals. I'm probably not that good with kids. I love kids, but I don't have kids, and I'm not. I have no experience being with kids, and they're very loud and always like sticky hands.

00:27:02:00 - 00:27:30:14
Dr. Abbie Marono
And I'm more an animal person. I love kids, but I wouldn't pick that as a career. But you might assume if I'm like, I love llittleeader animals, I love this, I wish is good with babies. I bet this the traits don't necessarily overlap, but we just assume as such. So if I'm evil, I can play on that. I could show you all this kindness I show to animals to get access to your child, And then I can be horrendous.

00:27:30:14 - 00:27:39:22
Dr. Abbie Marono
So we see this all the time. These wonderful people, amazing community member that just do it for access.

00:27:40:02 - 00:28:19:10
Lisa Sonni
That's terrible. And I think in in relational abuse, it can be so much more personal because the deceiver has insider information. They know things about you and so they can reflect you back to you, which is to your point, why you need to really know yourself and have that level of self trust. You know, I had an interaction with someone a year ago when they were telling me about me, and I was so dumbfounded by their view of me, and I realized that they were trying to convince me of who I am and explaining, I know you and and it wasn't in a in a romantic partnership, but it was, you know, I know you

00:28:19:10 - 00:28:32:21
Lisa Sonni
and I know you this, this and this and sort of psychoanalyze me and that you're wrong about me. Years ago, I would have fallen apart. Now I was like, I don't want you in my life anymore. You are dangerous. Get out of here.

00:28:32:23 - 00:28:55:18
Dr. Abbie Marono
Yeah. And you know a lot of people. And I did this for a long time of. Okay, I can't trust people, so I don't need anyone. I'm just going to be on my own. That isn't a good way to deal with things that isn't healthy. We need love. It is cool to who we are. And anyone that says I'm totally fulfilled on my own, I'm going to hold your hand when I say it.

00:28:55:18 - 00:29:26:21
Dr. Abbie Marono
You are lying to yourself because it isn't in our nature. It just isn't. We can be happy and dependent, but you cannot be totally filled by yourself. There is something missing in your heart that just is. We are human beings. We need belonging. We need love. We need connection and being isolated and alone to protect yourself. You can live in this bubble of self-deception and safety because it is safer to be alone.

00:29:26:23 - 00:29:55:07
Dr. Abbie Marono
But you are lying to yourself. So the answer isn't to shut out the risk. The answer is to risk it anyway. But go in with a skill set. And that skill set is noticing patterns and that self trust. Building trust with yourself, building the relationship with yourself. So when you do come across these patterns, you leave first time, do not.

00:29:55:08 - 00:30:21:03
Dr. Abbie Marono
And I believe that people change and like one little lie and one mistake that's different, but a purposeful deception of something genuinely bad, something that they have led you to believe to hurt you. You leave the first time. You leave the first time. If they want to grow and change, great. That's not your problem though. They can grow and change and they can be a wonderful person over that.

00:30:21:03 - 00:30:26:16
Dr. Abbie Marono
Maybe in the future that wonderful heal person can come back to you, but you let them go.

00:30:26:17 - 00:30:48:01
Lisa Sonni
I'm a big believer now in No Second Chances because I think I mean women especially. But we're socialized right to be forgiving and and and give context. And I actually find it interesting because context removal is actually one of the most dangerous forms of deception. And sometimes they don't give context, but we fill in these gaps with our own context.

00:30:48:01 - 00:31:14:19
Dr. Abbie Marono
And I do want to caveat because I'm a huge believer in second chances. But the difference is a mistake, a genuine mistake. We are humans. We make mistakes versus a purposeful mistake. It can be a mistake, but I did it on purpose. To me, it's like the cheating itself isn't the bigger issue. It's what you do after humans make mistakes.

00:31:14:21 - 00:31:44:16
Dr. Abbie Marono
Say you. You cheat that it's still horrific, but it's the aftermath. Did you bring it to them or did you try to hide it? Did you delete text messages? Did you not actually physically cheat? But why are you talking inappropriately? And did you delete text messages? Because you are actively recognizing I shouldn't be doing this thing? And instead of going, oh God, I did this stupid thing and I'm going to take account ability, I purposely hit it.

00:31:44:17 - 00:32:09:03
Dr. Abbie Marono
That is the side that you walk away. First time they made a mistake, they bring it to you. It's hurtful and that is your choice. Someone does that and someone can take accountability. I am a believer in second chances, but the moment you can see that deception was crafted, you leave because that person statistically they will do it again and they will do it worse.

00:32:09:03 - 00:32:12:16
Lisa Sonni
their past behavior is a predictor of their future behavior.

00:32:12:20 - 00:32:35:19
Dr. Abbie Marono
That's of someone's behavior is their past. And I say that as someone who you look at me now, I was a drug addict at 16 making horrific choices. I don't even resemble the person I was except this fire in me. I see people change, but I lost people along the way because I couldn't get my act together and they should have left me.

00:32:36:00 - 00:32:54:05
Dr. Abbie Marono
There are people that should stay and guide you parents. I was a kid, but at the same time, this idea of if you don't have me at my worst, you don't deserve me the best I don't agree with. I think we should stick with people, but just because you're hurting does not mean you can hurt other people.

00:32:54:05 - 00:33:18:12
Dr. Abbie Marono
In my hurting, I have not created pain purposely in others. If you do, people should leave you. They should let you deal with that and you should get help. It is nobody else's responsibility to be victimized by you because you should have me at my worst. No, you should have you at your worst. No one is entitled to your pain except you.

00:33:18:13 - 00:33:25:12
Dr. Abbie Marono
That is your pain. And people should help you. But as soon as you start to inflict pain on them, they are not responsible for you.

00:33:25:15 - 00:33:43:21
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, they don't have to anymore. It's interesting. You know, as much as I joke, I'm not into second chances, do specifically mean when it's on purpose. If somebody makes a true mistake and they own it and they're accountable. Of course, because I want my children to have second chances. I want second chances when I mean the apology when I own what I did.

00:33:43:21 - 00:34:07:00
Lisa Sonni
But I in in the context of abuse, so much abuse is on. I don't know, I don't understand the concept of I accidentally abused you or I accidentally lied. You created a whole story. You deliberately took pieces of the story out or, you know, pretended you were somewhere that you weren't or whatever. And that matters. That matters so much

00:34:07:01 - 00:34:26:01
Lisa Sonni
you don't just say, okay, you know what? Now you owned it. Once I caught you, then you owned it after you bullied them and got the details. And frankly, a lot of women feel like FBI agents, right? Having to, like, investigate every single thing. There's a joke that women are investigators. Where do you think that comes from? Being lied to.

00:34:26:02 - 00:34:28:03
Lisa Sonni
We shouldn't have to do that.

00:34:28:05 - 00:34:51:10
Dr. Abbie Marono
Yeah, I. Think there are. A select few people that do abuse by accident, but only emotional. Like if I neglect you, if I can't deal with your emotions and things like that, that is my problem. And I need to deal with that because it doesn't make it okay. You can understand where someone comes from and still say you don't have the capacity to love me the way that I need to be loved.

00:34:51:10 - 00:35:12:14
Dr. Abbie Marono
I had a hard truth with myself a while ago, like a few years back when I realized I cared about a person and the way they cared about me was true and honest. And they loved me. But their love was different than mine. For them, they can truly love someone and still cheat on them because in their head it didn't mean anything.

00:35:12:15 - 00:35:32:19
Dr. Abbie Marono
I still give you my love and we say people can't love and cheat. And that's not necessarily true. It's the psychology of the person. Someone can believe you're the best thing to happen to them, want to spend their life with you. And if their character is deeply, deeply flawed and they think they can get away with it, they can still do things and it doesn't mean they don't love you.

00:35:32:20 - 00:36:02:01
Dr. Abbie Marono
It's just there floor of character. And I realized I was looking at this person who would have burnt the world down for me, but he wouldn't fix himself for me. He wouldn't heal for me, but he would do anything I wanted, anything I needed. He would give me the world, but he would not heal for me. And I realized that it's great to be loved and it's great to be cherished and appreciated.

00:36:02:01 - 00:36:26:02
Dr. Abbie Marono
He appreciated me and everything I did for him because I'm a giver. If I love, I love to just give. And he appreciated me and he was wonderful to me, with me. But I knew that eventually he would hurt me behind my back and he could. And I just don't have that in me to do to someone. And I realized that it's okay.

00:36:26:06 - 00:36:49:23
Dr. Abbie Marono
You can just let that go. And it it doesn't mean they don't love me. It just means that you have your healing to do. And I have my own path to walk. And we need to realize sometimes it just the presence of love and the presence of this cherishing and appreciation. It doesn't mean that that character, that flawed of character, goes away.

00:36:49:23 - 00:37:10:09
Dr. Abbie Marono
Someone can love you with everything, and if they are flawed of character, they can still hurt you. This idea that we can fix them, we can't. You can't fix another person. If therapists can't fix another person, they can only fix themselves. You do not need to be anybody. Therapist. It's up to them.

00:37:10:12 - 00:37:27:12
Lisa Sonni
Yeah, and to be fair, that goes for therapists. You know, people think like, oh, you're not a therapist, okay. But also if you are a therapist, it is still not your job to fix. I have plenty of clients who are therapists, and I know I mean, there's an extra layer of shame, too. If, like, I'm a psychologist, I should know this.

00:37:27:12 - 00:37:51:17
Lisa Sonni
I teach this stuff and yet I couldn't. But you made an earlier point that knowing doesn't mean that, you know, to walk away or that you you might know to walk away even, but you can't literally walk away. It makes it really, really hard. Yeah. Insight doesn't make the change. Just when someone is lying to you and creating this whole persona, I think we're very attached to overall who they are.

00:37:51:18 - 00:38:17:23
Lisa Sonni
Like you said, we put evidence in our little memory bank of their an honest person. They're a good person. They like animals. They. And then when they do something harmful, it doesn't become something we put in our evidence bank that contradicts previous evidence. It's like, but wait, maybe that's, you know, you give it the context. Like I said, maybe he's traumatized and then you don't say, wait, but that means you can't be an honest person if you just lied to me.

00:38:18:00 - 00:38:39:02
Dr. Abbie Marono
You know, I've had times where I've been sat there, sat on my own thinking, why am I still here? I notice all these things. I know this person has hurt me, is hurting me, will hurt me. Yeah, I stay and I've been sat there and what we do is we go, well, I can't because of this, but I can't because of this, all because of this.

00:38:39:04 - 00:39:02:04
Dr. Abbie Marono
We know we're lying to ourselves. And what it took me was finally realizing, like, it isn't about them. It's never about them. It's a mini issue. And what I realized was I just didn't want to admit to myself I was lonely and I was in my relationship when I was lonely, and I was worried that when they go, I would be lonely because I have this big independent persona.

00:39:02:04 - 00:39:26:16
Dr. Abbie Marono
And I realized, like, I just, I want love. And if I let this go, that longing comes back and it makes me question me. So I realized I had this work to do with my battle between wanting love and wanting independence and this persona of like, I need no one from the world, and the healing was just honesty with myself of we all need someone, we all want someone, and

00:39:26:17 - 00:40:03:01
Dr. Abbie Marono
that's okay. And I actually became more independent when I stopped just feeling independence of I need no one for this, I need no one for that because I wasn't deceiving myself when I was honest of I would love to have these things, but it's got to be right for me and I am independent. But it would be nice to have someone when I started kind of living into that reality and I was more honest with myself, I saw things for how they were so that self-acceptance and that just honesty with yourself is such a big protective factor.

00:40:03:04 - 00:40:23:00
Lisa Sonni
we underestimate it a lot. And I know I speak to so many women who say I can't trust myself, which I can appreciate, but you can learn how to trust yourself again. Now, for women that are, you know, in or out of the relationship, let's even say in the relationship, a pattern that I often see is I know he's lying, but I have to prove it.

00:40:23:00 - 00:40:42:17
Lisa Sonni
And I remember when I was in my 20s, I was going to give myself credit because I was only in my 20s. Right. And we think we broke up when I was 26, and we were together for five years. So that that big chunk and he would lie to me all the time, but I became like, I'm going to catch him in a lie, because when I can catch the lie, then I can say, see, you lied. Then he can't.

00:40:42:20 - 00:40:56:13
Lisa Sonni
Well, I didn't use the word gaslighting back then, but what he was doing was gaslighting. But I needed him to admit it. I needed to catch the lie. Why do we feel so connected to having to, like, prove it instead of just, I know that I'm being lied to and I'm going to go.

00:40:56:17 - 00:41:18:04
Dr. Abbie Marono
We love certainty and I am a fat person, I love information, I love certainty, and if we can get certainty, okay, then I'll go. But sometimes, even with that, we need to collect more evidence. Okay, I get this. Okay. Well, what about this? What about this? We kind of collect, accumulate evidence. It is enough to just not want to be there.

00:41:18:04 - 00:41:36:17
Dr. Abbie Marono
And I think a lot of it is socialized of we have to do what we're told, and we can't have an opinion and we can't do what we want. And what I say to people when they say, like, if he does this, if he's doing this, I'm going to leave. I'm trying to see this because then I'll leave and I say, you can leave now.

00:41:36:21 - 00:41:59:23
Dr. Abbie Marono
You don't need to know that he cheated. You may never know if you know in your heart, if you truly believe that, if there are things that are making you uncomfortable and you don't want those in your life and you have seen past behavior and it's making you question his behavior, now, you don't need evidence. It is enough to just go, you know what?

00:41:59:23 - 00:42:20:14
Dr. Abbie Marono
I don't want to be here. And we feel that we have these barriers in our life. And I read this quote and it said all defeat is psychological. And when it made me realize is what is a celebration to one person is nothing to another. What is a loss to one person is nothing to another. It is all in your mind.

00:42:20:15 - 00:42:51:15
Dr. Abbie Marono
It is all what you decide is important. And for someone, they stay in an unhappy relationship because they have kids and they go, well, I can't leave. Yes you can. You can do whatever you want to do. There's just barriers. Barriers can be moved and it's just hard. You don't have to stay. You don't need that evidence. We get so obsessed with the finding because we think, okay, this gives me an allowance to leave.

00:42:51:21 - 00:42:55:04
Dr. Abbie Marono
The allowance to leave is that you want to.

00:42:55:05 - 00:43:12:11
Lisa Sonni
you can leave because it's Tuesday. You don't have to have a reason. I also say that a lot of my clients, like you, have great reasons to leave, but you don't need any reasons to leave. Yes, you can just leave. You're allowed to decide that. I think we we need to give ourselves permission to leave with the information we already have.

00:43:12:12 - 00:43:31:05
Lisa Sonni
Which could just be you doubt the person. I don't trust this person at all. Maybe they cheated, maybe they didn't. But the fact that I don't trust them is the reason to leave. Even if you're wrong, something's wrong in the relationship where you don't trust them. But of course, in my context, usually he did cheat or abuse or lie or.

00:43:31:07 - 00:43:43:13
Lisa Sonni
But whether you know or not, because I know I will say that often the person did it right, but you may not have the evidence. Let go of that and give yourself the permission.

00:43:43:19 - 00:44:01:14
Dr. Abbie Marono
Yeah. And you can say like, okay, I don't want to be with this person because they did this. It's also okay to say, I don't want to be with this person because I believe they have the capacity to like, I've looked at someone I care about and thought, damn, I don't want to leave because I care so much.

00:44:01:14 - 00:44:21:16
Dr. Abbie Marono
But I also don't want to see myself with someone with these traits. And as much as I want to stay. I don't want that for myself. And that's enough. He didn't do anything wrong. There was no, I did this and now this is my reason to leave. And I was looking for things. And then I just realized, it's okay to just say, you know what?

00:44:21:17 - 00:44:26:22
Dr. Abbie Marono
This isn't what I want for myself. And that's okay. And I'm just going to go, perfect.

00:44:26:23 - 00:44:49:16
Lisa Sonni
You know, we debate details and find context and need evidence and reasons and proof that someone's lying. At the end of the day, it can be really hard to prove that somebody is lying, especially when they're using pieces of truth and reframing your reality. And how do you hold on to it during that? And I think the main point here is you don't have to stay with someone like this.

00:44:49:16 - 00:44:54:01
Lisa Sonni
You don't have to prove its abuse, prove they cheated. Give yourself permission.

00:44:54:02 - 00:44:56:00
Dr. Abbie Marono
Yes, you can just go.

00:44:56:02 - 00:45:16:16
Lisa Sonni
You know, what I love about this conversation is that it gives language to something that I think so many women feel, but just honestly can't explain. You know, we know when someone's not telling the whole truth, and then we're trying to catch them in evidence and it just becomes emotionally exhausting for us. And we're being victimized while it's happening.

00:45:16:16 - 00:45:36:01
Lisa Sonni
And I think it's just such a trap of self-doubt and not knowing yourself and not realizing that a skilled deceiver doesn't need to convince you of the lie. They're going to use all of these parts that you talked about to create a truth, or at least to make you doubt the truth. Something I've noticed to is that you don't even have to believe the lie.

00:45:36:02 - 00:45:47:03
Lisa Sonni
You just have to doubt that you're like, you just have to have the presence of doubt altogether. You're just not sure if they're telling the truth or not. And then because you don't know for sure, you stay.

00:45:47:08 - 00:46:04:19
Dr. Abbie Marono
Yeah. And if there's one thing that people can go home and remember, it's the best. Protection against abuse isn't immaculate detective skills. It's self-love and self-acceptance and self-belief. That's it.

00:46:04:22 - 00:46:14:08
Lisa Sonni
That is absolutely perfect as a as a takeaway for everybody. Thank you so much for being here. Can you tell us where people can find you? Where they can find your books?

00:46:14:09 - 00:46:38:16
Dr. Abbie Marono
Yes. Everything can be found on Abbie Marono A-B-B-I-E M-A-R-O-N-O, and Doctor Abbie official on Instagram and Doctor Abbie Marono on LinkedIn. Oh, and I'm on Substack. I just started Substack and I think that's Doctor Abbie official also, and I am starting my own YouTube, which I also think is the Doctor Abbie show.

00:46:38:18 - 00:46:41:06
Lisa Sonni
Amazing. I'm glad you're on YouTube. Finally, I thought, that's great.

00:46:41:07 - 00:46:42:07
Dr. Abbie Marono
Finally, I know

00:46:42:08 - 00:46:43:01
Lisa Sonni
everybody

00:46:43:03 - 00:46:47:06
Dr. Abbie Marono
and I just I gave it and I'm like, okay, I'm going to do this.

00:46:47:07 - 00:47:01:19
Lisa Sonni
well, good to have you on YouTube. So amazing. I hope everybody goes to find you. And also please check out our first episode from the first season that we filmed together about the The Science of Deception, which was such a fascinating topic as well. Thanks so much for being here.

00:47:01:20 - 00:47:03:17
Dr. Abbie Marono
Thanks so much for having me.

00:47:03:19 - 00:47:13:11
Lisa Sonni
If this episode gave you clarity. Share it with someone who needs it. Thanks for being here and for being honest with yourself. And remember, you're stronger than before.

00:47:13:13 - 00:47:16:15
Music
Stronger than before.