Marriage with a Kingdom Perspective

On this episode of the Authentic Marriage Podcast, hosts Shawn and Lauren, along with Chris and Brooke, come together to talk about God’s design for marriage and how His Word serves as our ultimate guide. In a world full of conflicting messages about relationships, Scripture gives clarity, direction, and purpose for how marriage is meant to be lived out.

Referencing the book Sacred Marriage by Gary Thomas, the hosts reflect on the powerful idea that marriage is designed to make us holy, not just happy. This perspective shifts the focus from personal fulfillment to spiritual growth, challenging couples to seek God’s work within their relationship.

The conversation emphasizes that when couples pursue God through His Word, their marriage begins to transform. Instead of following the patterns of the world, which often lead to disappointment and division, couples are called to live set apart. When happiness becomes the goal, it is easy to walk away when things get difficult. But when holiness is the focus, couples learn to grow, persevere, and reflect Christ through every season.

The hosts also highlight how a Christ-centered marriage becomes a testimony to others. The way you love your spouse can be a light, pointing people back to God and showing what it looks like to live according to His design.

This episode encourages listeners to view marriage through a Kingdom perspective, to seek God daily, and to build a relationship that honors Him above all else.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Welcome back to Love for a Lifetime's Authentic Uh Marriage Podcast. I'm Chris, my wife Brooke, and they're Sean and Lauren. We're glad to have you back. So last time we were together was right before you guys were uh headed off to the Bahamas for a family trip. So how did that how'd the trip go?

SPEAKER_04 0:22

It was actually awesome. Like we didn't have 11 bags and two things and get stuck in another city. So it was really, really good. The kids were great. I think my not watching the news, I think last time we had talked, I was like two weeks in or not watching the news, and I have continued to do that. Oh, great. And I feel like it was the most peaceful trip. I didn't care what was going on, and I think my frustration levels were better and the kids were better, and it was just a really fun trip.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

Yeah, we definitely had favor pouring into our path. Like it was really awesome. Yeah, we did. It was a great trip.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

I said you I heard you all the rain avoided you, I heard.

SPEAKER_04 1:01

The day we got there, it was perfect, and the day we were leaving, it started to rain. So, like, we weren't sad to leave because it was raining and it wasn't like a beautiful day. So it was perfect.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

Yeah, it was a really nice trip.

SPEAKER_04 1:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

That's so that's good to hear.

SPEAKER_04 1:15

The kids, as soon as we got on the plane to leave, were like, when are we going back to the beach? So they're ready to go back.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

It's always nice when you get good sunny days at the beach and you can enjoy it.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

So it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

We were uh we were telling you, I think last time we got together, um, my our sister-in-law was coming in to go to the rodeo with us. Uh so that one that that was a lot of fun. Uh, but it's interesting. Her favorite part uh was the uh the calf scramble. Oh yeah. Uh I was gonna say she's been to several rodeos before and all the events and things, but she had never seen the calf scramble before, so she really enjoyed it seeing you know all the the teenagers all chasing down holding the tail, dragging the tail.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

The calves dragging them. Yes. That's probably one of my favorite parts. It's fun.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Yeah, so if you ever haven't ever been to the Houston uh rodeo, that's one of the fun things they do is uh watching torture of teens. Have teenagers do work chase down calves and then they get a calf to raise if they're able to if they're able to chase one down and bring it back into the square. It's uh a little bit of fun, but it's it's neat to watch.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

And it's also you can see eventually that the people, you know, some some of the I think the supporters of the rodeo get in there and help them eventually.

SPEAKER_03 2:35

So marriage is like a calf scramble? Is that what we're talking about?

SPEAKER_01 2:50

We were gonna talk a little bit about the purpose of marriage, and actually what we wanted to kind of reference was uh Gary Thomas has a book called Sacred Marriage, and he has a subtitle that says, What if God designed marriage to make us holy more than to make us happy? And I think that subtitle is quite interesting because I think a lot of people go into marriage thinking about, oh, it's for my happiness. I want to be happy.

SPEAKER_03 3:13

He will make me so happy.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

He will make me so she will make me so happy, yes. Don't I make you happy every day? So that's the answer. But first, let me talk. I looked up, talk looking up happiness, and it was interesting, you know, generically it's the happiness positive emotional state characterized by feelings of pleasure, satisfaction, and fulfillment. But I was reading some more, it was kind of funny. Psychologists actually say it's difficult to actually define this because it really varies a lot for people. And so they eventually start talking about subjective well-being, subjective well-being, and they really talk about these two factors. One is your emotions, the balance of how you're feeling. Do you have more positive feelings or moods than negative? And two was just having a general satisfaction with your life, your achievements, your status, your accomplishments, your relationships, whatever. So it kind of comes back to the simple definition that I wrote down was it's a positive emotion of pleasure or satisfaction based on your current situation of circumstances. So when I think about it that way, I realize that happiness is temporary and it's based on external circumstances. So if I look to our marriage and I want Brooke to make me happy all the time, um it's probably not gonna happen. So really two things, probably, number one, it's probably unfair. It's probably unfair of an expectation to have that Brooke's gonna make me happy all the time. And then number two, I'm probably gonna be disappointed a lot. Uh because you know, we talked about before, she can't read my mind, right? And uh the things that maybe sometimes I want to be happy, she doesn't realize. Um, so happiness, if you're chasing happiness and you're just thinking that your marriage is gonna make you happy all the time, that's probably not the purpose. The purpose is something different, and that's where we turn to we turn to God and we turn to the Bible and we try to understand what is the purpose that he had for uh for marriage. Yeah. And I think Lauren, you had looked at had some thoughts and read some things or listened to some things on this.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

Yeah, well, you know, Genesis 2.24 says, A man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. It doesn't say that they shall become happy. It says that they shall be one flesh. And this isn't just um a legal agreement, it's a spiritual union. Because can we really become one flesh physically? No. I mean, yes, in some ways, but not fully, right? Right. This is talking about becoming one, you know, in a spiritual sense, okay? And it's two lives becoming one. That means marriage has a purpose beyond the convenience, the emotion, the compatibility, the happiness, all of those things. You know, we look in the first institution that God ever began was marriage. And what we don't understand when we don't have revelation of what marriage really is and what God created it to be, then we learn by imitation. And what we have seen in our family or our culture, that's what we learn by. And this has caused people to lose so much hope in marriage because its purpose has really been lost, it's not valued anymore. Um, and you know, everything that God does, he creates or establishes whatever he does, has a divine purpose to it. It's never just he just threw it out, everything he does has a purpose. And if you're not aware of that purpose, then it's gonna be very easy to abuse or misuse it. And we've seen that in our culture. People don't understand its purpose, they misuse and abuse marriage and and they act like it's nothing. And you know, our culture really has screwed up the view of what marriage is.

SPEAKER_04 7:13

Um and if you're basing things on imitation, the things we're imitating aren't good. There's a almost a 50% divorce rate. So when you're imitating that, you're literally like, well, I'll try it out. If it doesn't work, I'll get out of it. And obviously that's not how God created it to be. So that's an interesting point on the imitation.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

Yeah. So, you know, God's purpose in in marriage, there's multiple, I think. There's some natural purposes, right? Um, you know, one being fellowship, you know, having emotional and mental enhancement with one another.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

The idea that it's not good for man to be alone. He needs that fellowship.

SPEAKER_02 7:55

Yeah. Um, and so we need that fellowship with one another. And then I think another one is faithfulness, uh, sexual fulfillment with one another. The Lord, the Lord gave us sex. It is a gift to enjoy, you know, and but it is for married couples, and it's awesome. There we go.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Somebody keep going.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

Um, but you know, and and we know that it's for marriage because in 1 Corinthians 7 2 it says, nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife and let each woman have her own husband. So we know that it was never God's intent for us to just be sexually promiscuous with a bunch of people. It was always God's intent for it to be within the marriage. Um, because you, when you go outside of the marriage, you are planting seeds of the flesh. And those seeds of the flesh lead to corruption. And they're not good. There's there's they're just not, they don't produce a good harvest. Um, and then, you know, in 1 Corinthians 6 16 it says, He who is joined to a prostitute is one body with her, the two shall become flesh. So we also see that the importance of the sexual relation is that there is a joining that happens. It's not just this act where people think that it's just this physical act. There is actually a joining. And biblically it says that when they join two become one flesh. And there is more, you know, it's we are dealing with, oh, I think we've talked about this before, that we are made out of three different parts. We are body, soul, and spirit. Um, and when there's sexual intimacy, all of those, the physical is involved, the mind and emotions. Think about how you you you feel like you love somebody, the emotions that come from being intimate, and then the spirit, the deeper identity, the deeper connection that that causes. So it's, you know, and God wants that within marriage because it's so powerful and it's so enjoyable within marriage. And then the third part I would uh is family. It's you know, God wants us to be fruitful and multiply. He says that in Genesis 1.28. God bless them and said, Be fruitful and increase in number, fill the earth and subdue it. So he is all about the family unit. It's very important to him. Um so, you know, one of, you know, uh, and and I would say one of the best things that you can do within your family is allowing your children to see how you walk out your relationship with God and then pour into them these same truths and revelations so that they can then have um impact for generations.

SPEAKER_04 10:46

Let them learn what it is, but also to imitate what a good marriage is as well. If that's if that's what we do, and uh what do they say is imitation is the best flattering. Right. If you if your marriage is so good that your kids want to imitate that, I mean it's generational and um you can create a legacy of good marriages down the line.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Well, you know, I remember watching my dad every night at the edge of his bed um reading his Bible, praying, and I saw that every night. And so, you know, um, and I didn't really fully grasp the importance or understand it, but just seeing that, like, and and knowing who my dad was and his character, like it has made an impact in who I am now, you know.

SPEAKER_03 11:35

And and I think the thing too is the our kids might not decide to imitate, but it becomes their default because it's what they know. So I know even in our marriage, sometimes they're just defaults you go to because that's how you grew up seeing things handled or were handled in your household. Um so when it's healthy and it's positive and it's this loving marriage, great, if that's their default, you know, as opposed to something that's that's not that.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

Yeah. So I mean, as so apart from the natural things that uh of of the purpose of marriage, there now, you know, there is a heavenly purpose. And so, um, and that's really what we want to kind of discuss now is kind of what what is that? Um and you know, there's this redemptive pattern in Ephesians 5, 31 through 32. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. This is a great mystery, but I'm speaking concerning Christ and the church. So here you see now that we now see that marriage is actually um really a reflection of Christ and his church. And he says that this is a great mystery, which is really, you know, marriage was the prophetic vision of Jesus and the church. Uh-huh. Isn't that really neat? I mean, so marriage to to God is so important because it shows his relationship with us.

SPEAKER_04 13:07

It's supposed to reflect his love for us. Yeah. Yeah. And our marriages don't necessarily show that by the way we forgive each other. You know, there's a lot of bitterness and unforgiveness in these couples that divorce, and and you know, we've been there and it's and it's a really um really bad place to be, but we we're on the other side of that where we can see why God created this and how our marriage is supposed to reflect this love and this commitment. Jesus says, I will never leave you nor forsake you. And we as husbands need to tell our wives, we will never leave you and forsake you. We are here to serve and to love you. And you know, I don't think we do that enough in marriage. And and, you know, Chris and I talked about loving and and leading in a different podcast, but but that's what we're supposed to do because that's what Jesus did for us. He loved us so much that while we were still sinners, he died for us. And and he led us and he taught us, and he, and he just um it was just a really great picture. He's he's the picture of the Father, and that's what our marriages are supposed to show, our love for one another, as that towards his love for us, so that we can start to understand his love for us.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

Redemptive idea, so that unconditional love, that forgiveness, and that covenant that'll always be there for you. So that's part of the model, part of the reason, part of the purpose.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Yeah, it was definitely God establishing marriage marriage to reflect Christ's never-ending love for us. Um and we don't see that a lot. So people don't really, they're not seeing who Jesus is because our marriages are not reflecting that. Um, and we need to get back to what our marriage is supposed to be doing. It's not just for happiness. And that's the problem, is people think that it's just for happiness, and the minute that they're not happy, they want to get out. You know? So um and then you know, the other part is just, and I think that this is this is what sacred marriage talks about is the sanctification of it. Um and you know, I I you can't you can give without loving, but you can't love without giving. So our happiness comes from giving. It's not out of just getting everything. Um it's about really blessing that other person and making making it about you know their their walk with the Lord and you know, blessing them in so many different areas. Um and that should be our our goal.

SPEAKER_04 15:46

And ultimately it can be your ministry because your marriage can lead people to Christ. They can see something in your marriage, in our marriage, that says, I want that. How did you guys get that? Well, we allowed Christ into our life, we put him in the center of our marriage, and we work to sanctify ourselves, to be set apart, to be made holy. That's what sanctification is. It just means being more and more like Jesus. And we want to do that in our marriages by forgiving so that our kids can see us forgive, by saying, I'm sorry, by having fun, by dating, by doing those things. Um I don't want to say marriage isn't happy. We were joking about that early. Marriage is amazing and it's enjoyable. And that's the thing is to be content in all things. You're gonna have ups and downs in your marriage. It's just inevitable. But to be joyful and to know that you've got this thing, I will never leave you or forsake you. It's this covenant that we have together that people need to see that even when there's ups or there's downs, your relationship is so strong and so set and focused on one another that security. Yeah, that it just shows people that's how much Jesus loves us. Right? And we don't often see that.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

I I think about so this idea of when he talks, Jerry Thomas says about becoming holy or or sanctification. I often think about um um Jesus, I think it's Matthew 22, and the Pharisees they come and ask him, What's the greatest commandment? And he says, Well, the greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your mind. And he very quickly says, the second is to love your neighbor as yourself. And I often think about marriage as like a training ground to love your neighbor, right? Loving your neighbor is hard. So let me first get married, let me figure out how to love my wife. Uh, it's like training wheels to go out there and love the world. Because, you know, I wake up and I'm tired or my body hurts, and Brooke says, Oh, I want to go garden today, or oh, I want to go, you know, the football game's on that I want to watch, but she says, Oh, we're going to a Symphony Pops concert today. Oh, I said, Oh, okay, well, let's let's let me reorient my brain and let me take action that shows her that I love her, you know, even when I don't necessarily feel like it. So I often think about this this idea of oh, we're supposed to love the world. Well, this is like a training ground to love the world. Sometimes it's tough to love the world, sometimes it's tough to love your spouse.

SPEAKER_04 18:08

But have you ever noticed, too, that sometimes people will be kinder to everyone around them and not so kind to their spouse? Right? We've got we've fallen into that too, and and we realize we put on a happy face for other people, and but we don't necessarily do that for our spouse. And that's and that's okay because we get to be vulnerable with one another. But we'll talk about words and tone and all those in another in another segment, chapter, or whatever. But uh, I just I laugh sometimes at even like I'm very nice to somebody, and then I'll say something harsh to Lauren, and I'm like, well, why am I doing that? You know, why, you know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 18:45

Inside of human nature, we're just comfortable, so we can take for granted, and we're not on our best behavior anymore. We're not uh pursuing like we were when we before we got married. And yeah, yeah, excuses. Not not okay. Yeah, no, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

That's why it's a process, right? It's an ongoing process, right? We we make progress and then some days we fall back a little bit and we have to ask forgiveness or repent and and try again, try again the next day. I uh I I laugh because uh I was when I was thinking about this, I was thinking about um I was thinking about the the proverb, um, I'd have it here, uh 25-24, better to live on the corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife. You know, as people point out this, the people quote this a lot better be on the corner of the roof than live with a quarrelsome wife. But I also know that you have Proverbs 15, 18 that says, a hot tempered man stirs up conflict, but the one who is patient calms a quarrel. So this thing about the quarrelsome wife, well, she's not alone. There's a husband involved there that hasn't figured out how to uh be calm and patient and calm a quarrelsome way. Calm down that situation. So it takes two to tango something. It does, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:01

That's absolutely true. Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

I think that's uh I think that's a quite amusing one. Um, so yeah, so I think so you look at what he's talking about there, or Gary mentions is that there's a purpose for marriage, and too many people probably go into it looking for continual happiness when instead it's this process to make us holy, to make us more like Christ, which isn't easy.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

Yeah, I definitely, you know, in our own journey, like it's been really, really neat to watch how putting Christ in the center of our marriage has led us to sanctification and um like even wanting to say like help each other grow in in each other's relationship with the Lord, like helping them to become more like Jesus. Like that that's where I'm talking about when I say like you want to bless them, we want to help them to grow more into being more and more like Jesus. And um, and when you and and when you have both people doing that, your marriage can be this incredible, enjoyable, like just life. Adventure, yeah. Yeah, adventure. It's an adventure with the Lord that you just can't get any other way. You want to f you want an exciting life, that's a that's an exciting life.

SPEAKER_04 21:24

And I would encourage anybody to really get into the word because it talks about marriage. It it gives us a guidebook of kind of a little bit about marriage, but about relating with people in general. But if you apply those things to your marriage, your marriage will be so strong about putting others before yourself, you know, not speaking things that will hurt, uh, tear them down, but you want to lift them up. Um, if you can start to do those things and look what the Proverbs, all the wisdom shows, God says that He will give you wisdom. If you seek it, He will give it to you. And I think that the whole Change in our life was seeking the Lord and seeking his word. And the more and more you're in it, the more and more you pray together, the more and more those revelations come to you, the more and more peace comes over your marriage, the more and more I think it's freedom from anxiety, from fear, from rejection, from any of those things. They all tend to go away when you're focusing on the Lord and your marriage and how He created it to be. It's a whole different world. And it's an amazing world.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Yeah, I think there's probably one other thing I'd add when you think about again marriages and this idea of holy. So holy is this idea also being sacred is set apart for a purpose, for God's purpose. So that's something to think about, to think about okay, wait a minute. We were set apart for a purpose. We got to go figure out what that purpose was. And and you know, praying, reading the Bible, seeking the Lord helps us to try and figure out that purpose. And then when I find like you have a goal or an objective, you have a purpose. Well, generally you don't really think as much about yourself and your wants and your needs and desires. You're thinking more about what do I need to go do to accomplish that purpose. Um, so I think that really helps you to say, okay, wait a minute, what is our purpose? Uh, how do we focus on that?

SPEAKER_03 23:19

Yeah, there's a book um by Francis Chan that's that you and me forever, and we did a study on that quite a few years ago. And it was so eye-opening because he really talks about looking at your spouse in the light of eternity. And I hadn't that never occurred to me, frankly. And it was kind of mind-blowing because it becomes this, like you're saying, this this purpose. How can I help Chris to become all that God has created him to be? As his spouse, it's my job to help. How do I help him to do that? And like you're saying, it becomes a very selfless thing if I can keep that perspective. And it's not, well, what are you doing to make me happy today? Yeah, it's what can I do to help you become who the man that God's created you to be? And what an honor and a privilege it is. I'm the only person who can do that for Chris, and what a beautiful thing, it's just a real shift, especially from what our culture tells you marriage is about. It's definitely this more, this more sacred, this more spiritual, this higher purpose of just, well, let's be happy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

And I think what's interesting about that is that when I am focused on helping you become what God intended for you to become, and we're working together for a purpose that God has given to us in the world, well, out of that comes the happiness then.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Right? So it's so interesting. It's like it's it's it's the happiness doesn't necessarily come first, it's understanding what we can do, how can I build you up, how can you build me up, how can we build up um the Lord's kingdom, the Lord's church. And from that we then get happiness.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

And I would just say too, like the Lord calls us to be disciples, and a lot of times we think that's going out and you know, telling people about Jesus, and yes, it is, but it also is we are to be a reflection of his love for us through our marriage, and so in a way, our marriage is being a disciple to people.

SPEAKER_04 25:14

Yeah, let's be somebody that they want to imitate.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 25:18

Because it glorifies Christ.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

Yeah. So when we, you know, I think we we need to think that way, and we need to think um, how how how is how I'm responding or how I'm acting or what I'm doing, even if it's behind closed doors, is this a good reflection of who Jesus is? I mean, you if we really were to understand and grasp what really marriage is to God, like I think that we would operate differently.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's where we have to keep turning to turning to the word and reading the word and seeking his guidance and trying to understand it. Um it's definitely been a journey. Yeah. It's been a journey for us. I know it's been a journey for you guys as well. Yeah, it's been great. It's been a great journey.

SPEAKER_04 26:05

And actually to see the transformation from where we started to where we are is a really, really cool thing. And in fact, we've had friends say, and we saw you guys where you were, and we saw you now. Like what did that? Yeah. And we can point right to Jesus. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Who you were who you were ten years ago or eight years ago, or even six years ago, or four years ago, is different than who you are today.

SPEAKER_03 26:27

And and them seeing that does so much more than anything you could preach at somebody.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:32

Live it. And that'll draw people to Jesus if they're seeing something in you that is because of him and it's beautiful, you know.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Well, I think we're about out of time, so let me uh pray for us as we close out. Uh, dear Lord, we just thank you. Thank you so much for your love for us, Lord. We thank you for marriage. Uh, we thank you for the all the words you have in the Bible that teach us more and more about marriage. Help us to seek your wisdom, Lord. Help us to understand what you have written. Uh help us to live it out, Lord. Help us to push down our selfishness and help us to more want to serve our spouses each and every day, Lord. Just be with us, be with us on the difficult days, especially, Lord, when we're tired or we're hurting and we still need to go serve and love our spouses as well as all of your church, Lord. So we just thank you. We praise you for uh just the beautiful season that we're in. We praise you for all of you have taught us and learned. And we just ask you to continue to open our minds, continue to activate our spirits so that we can love our spouses more and then we can love your church more, Lord. So we just thank you for all this and we pray in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Well, we just challenge you to go out and uh when you're thinking about your marriage, think about that purpose. Think about that purpose. Seek in more to that because we think if you'll find the purpose for your marriage, how you can build each other up, how you can support each other as well as God's church, we think happiness will then start coming from that. So it's a challenge for you guys to think about. Uh, appreciate you joining us in the Love for a Lifetime Authentic Marriage podcast. We're Chris and Brooke, and there Sean and Lauren, and we look forward to seeing you next time.