How to Successfully Go From Doing the Work to Leading the Team | Joe Raasch

Being great at your job doesn’t automatically make you a great leader. In this episode, leadership coach Joe Raasch joins me to break down the challenges new managers face when stepping into leadership for the first time. We discuss the mindset shift from individual contributor to people leader, how to stop micromanaging, and why leadership is more than just getting things done. 

You were a top performer, a go-to expert, the one everyone relied on. Then you got promoted. Now, instead of doing the work, you're leading the people who do. But no one really prepares you for the shift.

Stepping into leadership is about more than just getting promoted. It’s a whole new skill set, one that many new managers struggle to develop. If you’ve ever felt like you’re failing at leadership, questioned whether you made the right choice, or found yourself slipping back into old habits, you’re not alone.

In this episode, leadership coach Joe and I dive into:

• Why so many top performers struggle as new managers
• The difference between doing the work and leading the people
• How micromanaging isn’t always about control, it’s about comfort
• The tough reality of leading former coworkers and why it can feel lonely
• How to start proving yourself as a leader before you even have the title

By the Time You Finish Listening, You'll Learn:

• Why leadership is a people job, not a process job
• How to shift from task-doer to team-builder
• Ways to build leadership skills before officially stepping into a role

 
If this episode helped you, leave a review and let me know what resonated most. Your feedback helps more new managers find the show.Connect with Joe on LinkedIn, or book a call with him on his website!
Check out the episode 5 Truths No One Told You About Becoming a Manager
 

Taking Intentional Action: How to Choose the Life You Lead

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Transcript

Desiree Petrich (00:01.294)
All right, Joe, welcome to the podcast.

Joe (00:03.88)
Thank you. really appreciate being here. And I want to say really quick too, that I'm really excited about this particular podcast. I've had the opportunity to be on a few and the fact that you're addressing what I consider to be a very underserved population, people that are newer aspiring managers is just really makes me excited to be here today.

Desiree Petrich (00:23.566)
Good. I'm really excited to talk to you, especially because when we talked the first time about what we could possibly bring to the table that would be something different, something that they, being the listeners, haven't heard or maybe from a different aspect, we talked about something that I think gets brought up in almost every single conversation I had, but we dug deeper into it. And so I have this list of questions that I'm just dying to hear your answers to. And ultimately, the topic is what happens when you go from an individual contributor

to someone who is managing people. And that is the topic right there. So before we dive into my questions, Joe, do you have any like right off the cuff things you want to say about those individuals who were superstar, A plus, know, all the gold star employees and now they're managing people?

Joe (01:14.516)
was one of those people at one time. And it was why I actually got my first leadership job is because I had done so well in so many different jobs in a particular company that there, and I actually left the company for about nine months because I got another superstar job somewhere else and they recruited me back to lead this group. No training or anything, just like you were so good at this, you should be in charge of it all. And one of the key things that you've got to remember when you go from

you know, an individual contributor to a managing people is that it's a whole different skill set. It's absolutely a different skill set. One of the simple analogies I use is somebody who's like a star mechanic and they can repair any vehicle that comes in. And over time, the shop owner says, you know what, you should be, you should be managing this shop. You're such a great mechanic. And that's a reason a lot of new managers fail is because

That manager is great at turning wrenches and they had no idea that being a leader is a people job. It's not a process job. I can't say that often enough. It's a people job.

Desiree Petrich (02:24.173)
So what does that mean? What exactly does it mean for it to be a people job? Because I keep using the phrase human centered leadership, human leadership, know, soft skills, I think are what we're used to hearing around as far as a phrase, but what does it mean for it to be a people centered focus?

Joe (02:41.81)
Yeah, that's a great question. The difference is as an individual contributor, you're doing the work, you're doing the tasks, you're checking the boxes, you're the one doing all the work towards the goal. When you become a leader, you don't do any of that work anymore. You're responsible for the people, not the process. So that means you have to be really good at figuring out how to get other people to do really good work.

not to jump in and do the really good work yourself like you used to do when you're an individual contributor. So working through others. So if you're not really good with people, you don't understand emotions, you don't understand motivations, you don't understand a lot of that, it's really gonna be challenging because what happens with leaders then is they start to fall back on their own habits, which is, I'm just gonna do the work then. And they become sort of a player coach. And then what happens is their team gets frustrated because they're not getting any support as a-

person or as a human, getting, they're having somebody micromanaging them.

Desiree Petrich (03:43.296)
It's so funny because micromanaging is such a taboo word. Everyone has this absolutely negative connotation around it. But in reality, when someone is micromanaging for the most part, they're just going back to, like you said, their old habits of wanting to do the job that they were so good at. So we put this really negative approach on it. But if we're not helping leaders to transition from those old habits that made them successful into these new habits that need to be different,

then we're essentially setting them up for failure because they just keep getting drawn back into doing what they know, but it's all of a sudden the worst thing they could possibly do because now they're not helping their team, hurting it.

Joe (04:24.464)
Absolutely, they definitely go from thriving back to surviving. It's lizard brain stuff. When we get pushed into a corner and we're scared and we're fearful, we start doing, we fall back on what we know, what we're confident in, what we think we can impress others with. And as a leader, that becomes a problem because it's not the stuff you're supposed to be doing. You're supposed to be doing the people stuff. And it's a really, really hard job without question. wouldn't, I wouldn't want to ever tell anybody, don't try.

But I would say it's going to be, for those of us that are parents, they say it's the toughest job you'll ever love. And that's exactly what, I think that's what being a leader is too. And because they're both such human centered type work, I think that's why there's a lot of parallels.

Desiree Petrich (05:09.153)
Yeah, it's really interesting and I have to ask, why would someone want to go into leadership when it's the tough job? I always say at the end of every podcast episode, it is a privilege, 100%, but it's also a responsibility. And obviously, the privilege comes with a lot of different benefits, but can you sum them up for us?

you know, to kind of counteract maybe those negative pieces of it that feel hard. I don't want to use the word negative. I want to feel I want to say feel hard.

Joe (05:44.656)
I think people go into leadership for a variety of reasons. One is the challenge. I think that it's because it's hard, because it's different, because it's difficult. I think they want to challenge their skills. Their individual contributor work took them just so far and they want to try what that means to have that influence through others and to accomplish bigger things. that could be also, when I think leadership too, I don't necessarily always think of having like five or six direct reports.

I think of leading big projects or leading big programs where you're still working through people. maybe indirect reports to you from a human resources standpoint, but it's still a lot of the same skills fall into place. So that's something that I've spent more time thinking about too, is I'm always thinking leaders, direct reports, you have a team. You do when you have a project and you have a program too. And so taking on those larger responsibilities. Another reason people do that is because they want to help others. They want to serve. They experienced a leadership.

you know, a boss in the past that was either good or bad. And they're like, you know what, I don't want to have that, or I do want to have that in the future. And I'm going to be that leader that can be a little bit better with a team. And so they try it out. And I've seen people in careers, they start out early in leadership and stay with it. I've seen people, they're leaders for a while and they move back into individual contributors and back and some, you know, never do it at all. But I think it's an opportunity that if you want to challenge, that's a, that's not a bad path to try because you can always go back.

Desiree Petrich (07:12.311)
Yeah, I think that it's an amazing thing to want to be a leader. think that John, excuse me, Patrick Lincione wrote the book The Motive, essentially saying like, do you actually want what you think you want or do you want it because you've been told that you're supposed to want it? So what are some of those questions that you would ask individual contributors who are thinking about leadership? What are some of those questions you could ask to get their mindset shifting in the right direction to say, do I actually want this?

Joe (07:41.92)
When I work with clients, that's one of the first things I ask is what kind of problems do like to solve?

because some of those problems are very much exactly what they're currently doing and so there's no, and leadership isn't gonna be more fun for them or more interesting. So one of those is, you what kind of problems you can solve. Another one is, what's your motivation behind this? it the title? Is it the money? And that's not bad. There's nothing wrong with saying I wanna be a vice president someday or I wanna be a director someday or I wanna make X amount of money someday. That's okay. If that's...

motivating factor, but again that driving factor needs to be what's the what is the what is the people part of it what is the human part of it.

Another question I usually ask clients too is, who said you should be a leader? And they usually, can they kind of sit back like, well, what do you mean? Like, as if I can't be a leader? I'm like, well, you can, you can do whatever you want. But I'm just curious, are you wondering about it or is somebody else wondering about it for you? And it's surprising the number that are like, well, you know, three of the people, my roommates from college, they're all in like, you know, leadership positions or my...

You know, my spouse is doing this or my friend is doing that or, know, the people I've, you know, started the company with, they all seem ahead of me. I, you know, so we started talking about that and it's about, well, career trajectory. What do mean by ahead? How are you measuring that? And it's sometimes it's a more of a yardstick thing than it is really a motivation to be a leader. So then we start getting to some conversations about what it really means to be a leader and is it something they want? And some still do. And some are like, wow, I, huh, maybe not.

Joe (09:26.569)
Maybe not yet.

Desiree Petrich (09:28.139)
Yeah, and the ego. The ego comes into it a lot, especially when it comes to leadership roles, because I think that, again, it's what we've been told that we're supposed to be striving for. And to stop at anything short of that would not be enough.

Joe (09:44.55)
It is too. Ego drives a lot of things that it drives. When I, when I see, when people come to me and they have some challenges with their leadership, especially ones that are like new leaders are already doing some leadership and they're like, well, I'm really struggling with this. And you uncover it and you realize that they had an expectation of how it was going to be as a leader and it didn't play out that way. And so they don't understand because they feel like they're doing it right. It's not their fault. The team doesn't understand them.

their boss doesn't understand them. They ended up with some people on a team that aren't as strong as they thought they were going to be. And it's not fair. And the reality is, like, well, actually you get to do some leadership stuff now. Because this is what you signed up for. You get to help make those teammates better or maybe offer them some opportunity somewhere else. That might be something you need to do. You need to learn to manage up and take care of your boss's expectations.

Desiree Petrich (10:25.517)
This is what you signed up for.

Joe (10:40.52)
you get to look at a variety of different things. And that's a big part of leadership too. And that's when they realize, so that's what leadership is. And that's not all it is, but that's part of it too. Because once you've got the job, you own all of it, not just your piece of it.

Desiree Petrich (10:57.141)
I love that, but I want to take this in a direction for someone who's maybe thinking that, darn, maybe I don't actually want to go into leadership. I don't want anyone to be questioning themselves quite yet. I think that the questions that Joe posed are really important and whether you're a journaling kind of person or a self-reflection person, I do want you to think on them and I do want you to sit back and ask yourselves the hard questions, figure out that self-awareness piece of it. But with that being said, Joe,

someone has answered the questions, they want to be a leader, they want to give back, they want to challenge themselves and do hard things. How can they really start to prove their worth as a leader without having to completely start over? Because like you said, it's a different set of skills. So how can they begin to or continue to prove themselves as a valued member of the team without having to completely start over?

Joe (11:54.59)
Well, one is if they're working for a company is to talk with their manager and say, hey, let them know you're interested. Because it's surprising the number of people that sit back and wait to get picked. Well, nobody tapped me on the shoulder and said, you should go be a leader. It's nice when it happens. But I think it's happened to me maybe once in all the different leadership positions I had. Every other time I had to let my manager know I had to go for it. I had to set myself up. happened, took time and effort. So I think doing that.

see things posted, whether it's on LinkedIn or you read leadership books or you listen to podcasts like this one, all the different things that they say you should try to do as a leader, know, how to do strategic thinking, your communication skills, your adaptability, your decision-making skills, which are all things you can work on as an individual contributor because the people skills.

And so that's all stuff you can do now. You don't have to wait until you have the title. In fact, I'd recommend you don't wait until you have the title. You start working on them now because it might take you a little longer than you thought to get comfortable doing some of those things.

Desiree Petrich (13:00.683)
Yeah, amen. I couldn't agree more. It's why if you were to go to LinkedIn at this given moment, my headline reads, helping companies build their leadership pipeline from within. And essentially all that means is that you're helping to prep people to understand what is leadership? Do I want to be a leader? Can I be a good leader? And what training, what skills, what relationships do I need in order to keep closing the gap so that one day when the current leaders leave, I am poised and ready to take on that position.

Joe (13:30.228)
And it's wonderful that you're taking that approach and hopefully more companies think about it in that way too. Because I've been involved with companies where they don't do that. My business is one-on-one. I don't work directly with companies. But when I've been in companies, I've seen leadership programs where they have like an emerging leaders program or a leadership academy and only certain people can go and then they go. But they don't necessarily come out and get to be leaders. They just get to be graduates of the program. And they get a certificate and they get a picture with a senior leader.

And then they have to wait until there's an opening. And so they get really frustrated because they're like, well, now I went through all this training and now I don't get to do any of the stuff. And a great way would be the training is what sets you up. So you can start doing the stuff now. Just like what you were talking about. You set them up, you build that pipeline. So they start becoming better communicators. They start to become more strategic in how they think through their work. They get better at making decisions without having all the data. They start doing all the leadership stuff.

And then when the opening comes, it's as if you already have two, three years experience because you've been doing it you can document it you can show, here's how I'm already doing those kinds of things instead of thinking that you're going to get a certificate from an academy and then everything's going to be okay.

Desiree Petrich (14:45.217)
Yeah, I feel like one of the biggest concerns that I hear from individuals who want to be in leadership is just that. It's how do I make sure that I'm ready to interview for it when the job comes up and make sure that I actually am qualified? But the other one is how do I lead people that I used to be friends with? How do I lead the people that at one point I was complaining about our boss with? You almost kind of...

lose that network of people that you've been working to grow for however long you've been there. What are your thoughts on that? Is it something to avoid as far as maybe you can stay friends with them? Is it something that you completely cut ties with? What is your recommendation to new leaders after that individual contributor role now that they're in leadership?

Joe (15:34.214)
If you can avoid it, I would, because it's just a really, it's a difficult struggle because you're going to find out that you don't get to be friends with them anymore. And even outside of work, it's difficult because there's that weird relationship where you're the boss and they're not, and you write their performance reviews and decide how much they should get for a raise and whether they should get a promotion, whether they should even keep their job during like nowadays, where there's so many layoffs.

And that's a really tough spot to be in. I think it's a really tough spot to put a friendship in. It's a really tough spot to put a leader in. So ideally you don't do that. However, I would say probably a third of my leadership roles, that's exactly what happened, is that I ended up being in charge of people that I used to be colleagues with. And it changes things. And you get to learn really fast that there's different barriers that you need to put up.

Walls that you need to put up. There's different ways of saying, you know what that there's I can't do that anymore I'm not I'm not that I'm not I'm still the same guy But I'm not the same role and so I don't get to participate that way The perception of you going out to lunch with like half the team and not the other half because you used to always do that All of a sudden becomes an issue Whereas before it wasn't a thing and it gets a little bit a little bit lonely It's kind of like all of a sudden all your friends are gone and you're making new friends and they're manager friends. They're not

individual contributor friends. So it's something to definitely think of. It's not impossible. It's definitely very doable. And I think it takes a lot more emotional intelligence, if you will, than what people may have to begin with. ideally, it's something I would avoid. think you'd really, at least for your first role, I think you'd really enjoy learning leadership without the pressure of not having to deal with the whole friendship thing too.

Desiree Petrich (17:28.459)
It's interesting that you use the word lonely because right when you said, recommend you not, like, well, what happens or how do you not get lonely? Because that's, think a lot of people's fear is, right, it's lonely at the top. We've all heard that. I think a lot of us have maybe even experienced it. How do you make sure that you're not lonely in that position when at the end of the day, it's the position you're probably going to need the most support for?

Joe (17:52.948)
That's making those connections with your colleagues. Unless you're in a really, really, really small business, there's other people at your level in the business. you, most companies have some sort of a loose manager cohort that get together occasionally. And if not, create one or just part of, you know, your regular onboarding as you get to meet people and, you know, talk with those people once in a while and, and, you know, share when you're having struggles, when you're have questions about different things and that.

And connecting with your managers another way to do it is to be able to you know on your regular one-on-ones with your manager to be able to say hey You know, I'm kind of struggling with this I don't remember my first job at a huge fortune at the time It was a top five as a fortune five company in the fortune 500 at GE and I remember my first manager job there and After the first week my boss said hey, how's it going? So I'm in the hallway and I'm like, I don't feel like I've done anything all week. He said you're doing it, right?

He's like, yeah, he goes, you're not supposed to do anything. You're supposed to be making sure that people to get everything done and they have every resource that they need and all the obstacles are out of their way so they can do the work. And that was a big click for me and a realization that being able to reach out to the manager, being able to reach out to colleagues, getting in a mentorship program, getting a coach, if you have some deep areas you need to work on, those are the ways you're going to create that support and you're not going to feel as lonely because lonely alone doesn't mean lonely.

Lonely means I have nowhere to turn, I've got nowhere to face, I've got no support, I've got nothing, I have no help. That's what lonely really is. Alone isn't, because you're gonna be alone as a leader, because there's just you. But lonely, that's different. So making sure you have those support mechanisms is key.

Desiree Petrich (19:40.716)
Yeah, and you talked a lot about internally, I just want to plug the external networking, other companies, other people that are in that same level as you. That was my lifeline when it came to not feeling lonely as a leader was going to networking events and feeling like I had people outside of my direct reports or the people I reported to because I was in a very small business and I didn't have anyone that was kind of next to me as far as the level in the company.

Joe (19:49.192)
Yes.

Desiree Petrich (20:09.813)
that getting out of the office, getting out of those four walls and saying, hey, who can I connect with that sees kind of life with the same lens as I do. So I don't feel like at any given point, I can't turn to someone for help.

Joe (20:23.348)
That's a very good point. And that can even happen in big companies as well, because they may not have the internal resources to give you the support that you need and may not choose to do that. so finding whether it's an industry group or other sort of networking groups, a great idea. Another thing that I recommend to people that are aspiring to be leaders, they don't have that role yet, is you really need where possible experience doing things. Because you can read all the books and you can listen to a lot of different podcasts.

and you can go to a lot of webinars and you can attend a lot of training, but until you actually do the thing, you're really not gonna have the experience that you're gonna need. And a great way to do that is to volunteer. It be at your, it could be at a food shelf, it could be at your church, it could be at a veterans organization, you name it. There's just any sort of non-problem with the local symphony. mean, you name it, everybody needs help.

you get an opportunity, you're to be able to lead a project, lead a small team of people. You get to try some of this out in a non-pressure format where it's not like your life depends on it, like it's your job. And it's a great way to do that. Plus, again, you're engaging with people, with like-minded people, and you're creating that network again where you've got that, you know, almost an internal support thing because, you know, they're happy to have you there. And you get to try out some of this leadership stuff without having the pressure of having to try to take the role.

Desiree Petrich (21:50.477)
That's, I would say, between going into your chambers and your networking events and things like that being my number one piece of advice for new leaders, new managers, my second piece is go get on the board of something you're passionate about. Go sit on a board of directors and really immerse yourself in not only being around the table with other leaders, but making sure that you're immersing yourself in the community, because that's going to be a huge piece of your success within your company too.

Joe (22:18.824)
Yes, and what I enjoy about that when you think about it from a board standpoint is you get to have a small insight into what different levels of leadership look at. Because when you're a new leader, typically you're not thinking, you know, two years ahead, what's the next new product that's going to come out? What's going to happen in the environment if our supply chain switches from this place to that place? You're not thinking that way at all. You're in a much more tactical world. And so understanding how some of that works, even though you don't

work in it specifically really helps drive the value of the work that you're doing so it's connected in that.

Desiree Petrich (22:55.435)
Yeah, so it's funny, I had this question written down, how do you know when you're doing it right? And you kind of answered that already by your boss telling you, you know you're doing it right when you feel like you haven't gotten anything done. Did I hear that correctly? Am I missing anything with that?

Joe (23:09.982)
That's exactly what I said. I don't feel like I did anything this week. And he said, you're doing it right. Because when you're an individual contributor, it's usually what I call in like pile A to pile B. You have a stack of things that need to be processed, or you have, you know, the mechanic that needs to get X number of, you know, vehicles worked on in a, in a given day or a given week, or you've got a certain number of presentations to get out the door, reports that need to be written and published, whatever the case may be. And you don't have any of that as a leader. Your team does.

Your team still has all that work, you, so you're not writing the reports. You're not, you know, you're not working on the cars. You're not doing any of that kind of work. You've got to figure out how to help the team to be able to do their work. And it can feel very weird at times because you'll meet with people and you'll help them and you'll help them work through a problem. They'll go back to do the work. And then you're, you're kind of just sitting there and you're like, okay, now what do I do? And at some people, especially as a new leader, their tendency isn't to go, okay, what's

How do I make sure that my team is ready for the next quarter or the next year? How are we doing on our long-term goals? They think, well, maybe I should go write a report. Or maybe I should go and it's like, that's not helping. There may be occasional crunch times where you maybe need to pick up something, but that's not helping. That's not helping at all. You need to stay at that higher level and think long-term and serve the team. And it feels really weird. It doesn't feel in that same sense of accomplishment.

Joe (24:40.39)
And one of the simple analogies I've used too is sort of like if you used to, I used to in a previous life, to do construction work and it's very tangible. You know, that wall is up, that roof is on, that those windows are hung. You get in your truck and leave for the day and you can go, I did that. And you can see it and you can touch it and you know it. And when you're the boss of that kind of work, all you see is that you've got your list of stuff and

Desiree Petrich (24:40.471)
interesting.

Joe (25:10.568)
You didn't pick up a hammer. You didn't go purchase anything at the supply place. You didn't do any of that stuff. Your team did all that stuff that you used to do. And so it feels like you didn't do anything because you didn't swing the hammer. And the reality is you made sure there were hammers to swing, know, was the right walls were up, the right windows were hung, all that stuff was in place. And so, you you're doing a lot, but it's a big mindset shift as a leader from being a doer.

Desiree Petrich (25:39.373)
I think that is the perfect place to end this conversation. It wrapped it up really nicely. And Joe, I just want to thank you for coming on and sharing this. I know it's really scary for a lot of new and aspiring managers to think about what they will have to do to give up the thing that has given them an identity up until this point. But as I will say one more time in this episode, leadership is a privilege.

It's a privilege. It's something that's given to you because there is faith from other people that you can do a really good job adding value to other people. So use it wisely and make sure that the information that you hear gets thought through, thought about through how is this going to work in my life, in my work. And I really want you to take that into perspective and make sure you reach out to Joe if you have any more questions, because he seems to have a great answer for everything, which I love in a leadership coach.

something for us to be thinking about at any given moment. So thank you, Joe, so much for your time.

Joe (26:36.596)
You're welcome.