How to Work With People You Can't Stand

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Struggling with difficult employees or clashing coworkers? In this episode, Desiree Petrich and Tessa Kampen unpack practical ways to improve team dynamics and work with people you don’t like.

You rarely to choose who you work with. Whether it’s a coworker who triggers your inner eye roll or a difficult employee who's throwing off your team dynamics, you still have a job to do.

In this episode of You're the Boss, Now What?,the go-to Leadership Podcast for New Managers, Desiree Petrich and honorary co-host Tessa Kampen dive into the Coaching for Managers tools that help you work with people you don’t always like… without losing your cool.

We share stories, tactical advice, and New Manager Tips on everything from how to handle conflict at work as a manager to recognizing your own blind spots. If you're struggling with how to hold employees accountable, battling imposter syndrome in leadership, or trying to build trust as a manager, this one’s for you. You’ll also learn how to delegate, give feedback effectively, and lead team meetings that don’t spiral off track (even with strong personalities at the table).

You don’t have to like everyone. But if you’re going to lead them? You do have to understand them.

By the time you finish listening, you’ll learn:

• How to understand the root of conflict using personality assessments like DISC and Working Genius
• Why difficult coworkers might not be as “difficult” as they seem—and what role you might be playing
• When it’s time to set boundaries, or let someone go, for the good of the team

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Coachin...

Transcript

Desiree Petrich (00:01.686)
We are back with my honorary co-host Tessa and I'm so excited to talk about this conversation because I will never tell a company that I can help you with strategic planning or tell you how to do your books better or how to run your meetings in the EOS fashion. That's not my strong suit. But what is my strong suit is coming in and helping people to understand each other better. And I know that that is one of Tessa's geniuses as well. So we're going to talk today about

how to work with people you can't stand. And Tessa and I did not prep this because I wanted it to be totally authentic and off the cuff for you as most of our relationships are and they end up being. So Tessa, let's start by hearing your initial thought when I posed this question to you. How do you work with people you can't stand?

Tessa (00:50.245)
At first I was like, are you sure you want this to be the title of this podcast, right? But honestly, the more I thought about it, the more I thought about this idea that we all have people in our life that we perhaps have a hard time getting along with, who seem to be complicated because they're different than us. So I was excited when you brought it to me because I thought, I know that I'm probably someone that...

Someone can't stand. So you know what? Let's get into it and let's see where it goes.

Desiree Petrich (01:25.12)
So I'm finalizing my keynote for the Intentional Leaders Summit. And I was going on a walk one day without headphones, which is impossible for me because I constantly like to have things in my ear. And I was thinking back to this story of being in my senior year in high school and reading the back of my yearbook where my best friend at the time wrote something along the lines of, Dezara, I really didn't like you when you started here in ninth grade, but I'm so glad that you're persistent because now you're one of my best friends. And I can't imagine having done this without you. And it's like,

I had no idea, absolutely no idea that this person did not like me. And I was with Olivia, which apparently worked out in my favor. But again, in my sophomore year of college, moving in with my best friend, we're unpacking our new house and she says, Desiree, I never would have thought we would be here because I didn't like you when we first started college, but look at us now. And I'm like, I completely missed the signs. And I think that's half the battle is if we're not.

Tessa (01:56.515)
Yeah.

Hahaha

Tessa (02:16.238)
That's...

Desiree Petrich (02:21.272)
paying attention and if we don't slow down to ask the right questions and are aware not only of the way that we're acting, but the way that other people are acting towards us. I don't know. There's something there and I just, I'm hoping I'm better at reading people now and reading the signs. But back then I really struggled with

Tessa (02:39.288)
Yeah, and I love that story because, well, two parts. Number one, she started by saying, you know, we didn't really get along and I didn't really like you. And so I would love to, and you may not know the reasons, but it's interesting, like, why did she not like you, right? And what was the reason that you didn't get along? And I'm gonna guess it could be you're different than her. Maybe she didn't understand you.

Right? Like our communication styles are different. You and I, same thing, our first interaction, not that it was a difficult one and I never didn't like you, but it was like two different personality styles coming into a conversation. And it's so easy for us to just go, I don't like that person. Right? I can't stand that person and then stop the relationship right there. But it sounds like she, obviously there was something there in you that she was like, okay, let me see what is more.

in this person so I can understand her. And I think that's the key to really dealing with people you can't stand is we gotta understand them. If we're gonna even move past that, I can't stand you to, wow, you're my best friend.

Desiree Petrich (03:46.178)
Yeah, well, and I think I know, I think I've my finger on it and I've thought about it a lot. And when I originally took my disc assessment, I was that high D where only 3 % of the population are like a strict D, very assertive, quick to change, like very task oriented, not people oriented, not typically caring about those types of things. And that sounds terrible and I don't like to say it, it makes me feel kind of icky, but.

I think I was just very assertive. I was very aggressive. I said what I thought. I was not really paying attention to the way that what I was saying was impacting other people. And I think that had a lot to do with it. But that was the upfront. That was the immediate. It wasn't saying anything about who I was, about my desire to want to be friends, about my desire to be a good person who was able to.

listen and be empathetic, right? It was just my initial communication style, like you said. And so if she would have shut down and not allowed me to get my actual intentions out there, that might have been it. It's why communication styles and learning about them and understanding them is such a big piece of the puzzle. Not even so much learning someone else's, but especially learning your own and how you might come across people, even if it's not intentional.

Tessa (05:03.556)
Well, I think that's actually the key in, you how do we work with people that are difficult or people that we can't stand as I think it first has to turn inward and go, well, what is it about me that I'm not able or I'm not willing or I'm having these feelings about this person? And I think if you're self-aware and you and I obviously live in this space, it's never about us, right? It's never about us. So on teams, if there's someone on a team that you can't stand,

It's easy to make it about you. then just, you know, Ryan Leake just wrote a book about working with complicated people. And he says, you know, there's four things that we'll typically do. So if I can't stand you, well, I'm going to avoid you because that's easy. I'm just going to avoid you. That way you don't have to deal with you. Or he says, you know, then we, or we try to change people. You know, I'm, know, if I don't like Desiree, I'm going to try and change Desiree and I'm going to make her more like me. And that doesn't work either. And then he says, or we just,

completely cancel them out of our life. And I know people who have done that in families. You know what, I don't like my brother, so he's not invited to Christmas dinner anymore. Like just, he's too difficult to be around. But I think the last thing which Ryan talks about, which is also something that you and I believe, and we've already nailed sort of this, this is the way through, is we have to understand people. We have to take time to understand why they're doing what they're doing.

why they are the way they are. And if we're not willing to do that very hard step, it's very hard to understand people because I have to put myself kind of aside to be willing to do that. But if we're not willing to do that, then we're always going to see people as someone we can't stand.

Desiree Petrich (06:48.268)
Yeah. So that was a lot of talk around emotions behind it, intentions behind it. love I'm purposely not reading Ryan's book yet because I need to make sure my thoughts for my keynote are my own. And I love Ryan's content. So I'm being really careful not to engage with any of it prior to my keynote. But I think there are some tangible things that we could do here, some action steps that we could give you. Because what might it look like if you can't stand someone in the workplace? This ends up happening a lot.

Tessa (06:59.82)
Yes!

Desiree Petrich (07:17.922)
We think that the deadlines that we're missing or the goals that we're missing or the inability for departments to connect or for individuals to connect comes down to a structural issue or a job description issue or a hierarchical issue. Is that a word? Hierarchy issue? Something along those lines. But a lot of times... Yeah, exactly.

Tessa (07:35.012)
Yeah, yeah. We're not English majors on this podcast.

Desiree Petrich (07:40.91)
And so I think a lot of times we assume that the struggles we're facing on a team come down to a structural issue and it really comes down to a relational issue. Those departments don't connect because the leaders don't like each other or they have different goals and so they don't have the same intentions behind it, right? It's typically more relational at nature than we even think. So I think it comes down to in a tactical and tangible way is what can we do to understand that person better?

ask better questions. When the trust has already been broken, it's hard to do that. It's hard to get past the point of saying, well, they've already put up a wall. Why should I try and break it down? You know, if you can't beat them, join them, throw up your hands and say it is what it is. But I just had Scott Tillema on the podcast and he said, do you want your job to be hard? If you want your job to be hard, then ignore conflict. That's ultimately what's going to happen.

Tessa (08:34.488)
Mm-hmm.

Desiree Petrich (08:36.576)
If you want your job to be enjoyable, it'll probably never be easy, but if you want it to be enjoyable, you have to be the first one to take the step. You have to be willing to ask the harder questions. You have to be willing to soften yourself and open yourself up and to be vulnerable. Right? The five dysfunctions of a team, have to be vulnerable in order to build up that trust so that we can ask the hard questions. So that would be my first thought is how can you ask questions that are going to help you get into the mind of who it is that you're struggling to get along?

Tessa (09:05.282)
Yeah, and I think that's tapping into curiosity and instead of leading with judgment and again, just saying that assigning, let's say the fundamental attribution error. I know it's a big word, maybe we haven't talked about it, but it's essentially seeing someone do something, right? And we're saying, that's their character. And we assign this negative character flaw to them. And I have this beach ball and I know the listeners can't see it, but I always have this in front of me on my desk because this topic,

There's always someone in my life that maybe is, I'm not really understanding them. And instead of moving to the space of like, I can't stand them, so I'm gonna avoid them. It's like, how can I turn this beach ball? So I could actually understand a little bit of their life, right? So if I can lean into curiosity to what you're talking about, if we can start asking questions, maybe it's just a matter of a different perspective. Maybe it's different upbringing, right?

communication styles, strengths, all of those things. But if I can turn this beach ball and I can move it from, can't stand to be around you, to I want to understand you more, then we can move to a better working environment, family environment. And I think you and I, every team that brings any trainer in, it's usually because of this. There are people on our team who are not getting along, and it's because of this.

They're not willing to turn the beach ball. They're not willing to look at this in a different way or see the person in a different light. Or even, know, as John Maxwell says, put a tent on people's head. They're not willing to see the good. We're just usually tapped into that difficult part of them because they're different than us. And that really, relational piece is huge because we want people to be like us. We connect with people like us. You know, we surround ourselves with people like us, but that's not how the world functions.

Desiree Petrich (11:01.088)
Mm hmm. Yeah, I always might one of my favorite phrases by mantra is always assume positive intent because it's so much easier to take something and think, well, that was passive aggressive or just aggressive aggressive or they meant that to knock me down a peg or whatever it might be. And a lot of times that's not the intention. We don't understand people at face value or we're not looking deeper into what they say. It really can be easy to take things the wrong way. That's why I always assume positive intent.

Tessa (11:07.118)
Yeah.

Desiree Petrich (11:30.818)
And I always say, ask them if what they intended was positive, not in a passive aggressive way of, you know, saying it without saying it and beating around the bush. But hey, I took that like this. Is that how you intended it or did I misinterpret it? It's really impactful to ask a question like that because you might be helping them to see the way that they said something that maybe wasn't the best way to say it. So you're helping them learn while also helping to bridge that gap between the two of you.

and to start to hopefully get along a little bit better.

Tessa (12:02.924)
Yeah. And I think that's why all of these self-awareness tools that we have, you know, the ones that you and I use or even other trainers are using are so valuable for teams because it really, again, helps them see themselves first. It helps them perhaps understand why they're not getting along with people on their team. But then it also opens up that awareness around, you know, what you might do or how you might speak or how you might show up. It's not

bad. It's just different. And you know, that whole line and disk where we are different, but we're predictably different. And once we start to understand that predictability, then I think that you can move from people being difficult and people that you can't stand to people who you can really work together with, because they're bringing something different to the table that you don't have the qualities that you don't have. You you always talk about this aggressiveness in you and

but it's just, comes with a kind side as well. Like I don't see you as aggressive, but it's like for some people that could feel very difficult to be around, but when they understand perhaps the motivation behind that, the reason behind that, it really changes your perception of that person.

Desiree Petrich (13:25.186)
Well, I think that Working Genius specifically has helped me to take that aggressive, I say aggressively friendly because I just, so badly want to help people understand their untapped potential. Like I can't stand seeing that, especially when people can't see it in themselves, because I'm so desperate for them to like do more and be more and raise the standard. And anyway, I digress, but with my intuitive activator genius, it's like,

Tessa (13:33.923)
Yes.

Tessa (13:48.676)
Hahaha

Desiree Petrich (13:52.074)
I'm that person at the board of directors table who's going to poke holes in everything and be the devil's advocate and make sure that what we're talking about is right and have something to say after every comment. Some people really don't like that. And if they don't understand me as the person who's trying to get the best out of everything that we can and make sure that we're not going to regret a decision later, if they don't see that and they only see the person who won't shut up right at the board table.

that's gonna create a lot of animosity between us. And so I've even just started by explaining why I am saying the things that I'm saying or why I feel the need to keep saying things out loud. It helps them to recognize that I know what I'm doing and it's not intentionally trying to bother anyone else, but that I do feel it's an important part of the process. And the more you know yourself, the more you can put language to it.

Tessa (14:42.648)
Yeah, you're making me think of an activity actually. was just, excuse me, talking to a group of facilitators yesterday and it's really simple and I think this could help people understand to the point that you're talking about here is you start with the statement, I can't help myself, right? So if you had everyone around the table that said, I can't help myself. So for myself, it's like, I can't help myself, but interrupt people sometimes.

It's because I get so excited about ideas and I often forget them. Like if I have to hold on to it, even three minutes, I'll be like, I don't know what I'm gonna say anymore. So I can't help myself but interrupt people, right? Someone may see that as a bit of someone you can't stand. Like, Tessa, you're always interrupting. That's so rude, right? Or I can't help myself but like really push my kids to continue to, let's say, clean your room, clean your room. And that's so difficult for them. Like, mom is so annoying, right?

but I can't help myself because I just, you I'm trying to get them to be responsible or I really like a clean room or whatever it may be. But let's say you do this activity with your team where you actually get people to say, I can't help myself and then share that statement. Like, what is it that you continue to do? That's another way for us to just open up that awareness window. And instead of seeing someone as complicated or as someone you can't stand or someone you're trying to avoid, you're now increasing the understanding around,

That's why she or he always does that thing that really annoys me. And you can be like, okay, they're not so bad.

Desiree Petrich (16:13.614)
Yeah, I think this is fantastic. I love that exercise. And for me, it would be I can't help but push people to think differently or do something differently. so that can I think that's where the aggressive piece of it comes off is constantly pushing people to do a little bit more. But I want to ask the question because people I often hear leaders tell their coworkers, you don't need to be friends. You just need to be able to work together.

What are your thoughts around that statement?

Tessa (16:46.34)
I think I've said that to my kids sometimes, to be honest, right? Like, you're never gonna be best friends with everybody in the world. But I think there's, you you need to be kind. I really believe, like I say that over and over to my kids, just be kind, be kind, be kind. And I don't think we need to go out and, you know, share a meal with everyone that we work with or talk about our family and get really close with them. But.

I also think you can't fake it either. So I can't work with you and not like you, but then have sort of a fake relationship at work. I think if I'm doing that, then I'm also avoiding that thing. So I think, you know, friends might be a different level. Maybe we have to still be acquaintances, but it all depends on how people are going to interpret that. They may say, well, I don't have to be friends, so I don't really have to like you. I just have to tolerate you.

And I don't want to be in a workplace and I don't want to work with people who just tolerate me. Right. I want people to actually enjoy working with me, understand my complications, because let's be honest, we are all difficult to work with. We're all perhaps, you know, that person that they don't want to be around at times. But I also want people to take time to understand me. And again, we don't have to be best friends, but I also don't want it to be fake at the same time.

And I think if you're working together as a team, think of a sports team, right? Like that's like a family. And when you think about how many hours you spend at work, that's like your family too. So you can try to go through your workday, not really being friends and just kind of faking it. But I think at some point, you're gonna have to work through that thing that bothers you about the other person, because it's always gonna show up.

Desiree Petrich (18:39.042)
Yeah, I love what you said. Like you have to be kind. And I always say you don't have to be friends, but you do have to be friendly. You do have to respect the other person. You do have to show them that you care. And you might not need to ask them about every facet of their life. But do you know their kids names, their spouses names? Can you ask them how their day was? Like it might be a little bit painful, but at the end of the day, is it going to be the thing that allows you to be?

Tessa (18:45.196)
Yes, yes.

Desiree Petrich (19:07.042)
comfortable and friendly and be able to give feedback and receive feedback because if that brick wall is up and you've said I just need to tolerate them that immediately puts a wall right in the middle of you. No trust, no conflict, no commitment, no accountability is going to be able to cross that wall. So I really, really struggle and get this like gut feeling. I'm like, don't say that. Don't give them permission to not need to be friendly to one another because that's that's what that term you don't need to be.

friends, you just have to work together kind of thinks that's how I think about it is you're giving them permission to not need to try anymore. And I still I think it's really important that we all continue trying.

Tessa (19:40.804)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tessa (19:46.797)
Yeah. And I think, again, with the kindness piece, it's kind to share with people how they're making you feel. It's kind to have conversations when people are very difficult and they don't see it. You know, I think that that's kind. And one of the things, you know, we need to maybe just bring up is there's also people in the workplace and in our lives that are narcissists or who are very difficult and they're not willing.

to see that they are that difficult person. And I think, you we need to be careful as well because we don't want to say, well, we just have to continue to allow those people in our life and get along. I think there's also the, you have to set boundaries. If a difficult person is not willing to see that they're difficult, then we need to set boundaries or maybe it's time for that person to go. Yeah, what do think about that?

Desiree Petrich (20:44.108)
love that you just said that because it was how I wanted to out this podcast is there will be situations where people truly can't work together. There are just going to be situations where there are two individuals that are not meant to be in a workplace together. And I don't know what the correct timeline of knowing whether what you're doing is going to work or not. I don't know how long you should try. I think it comes down to making a hard decision. But

Tessa (20:45.39)
Ha ha ha.

Desiree Petrich (21:10.22)
I was reading, I think it was Patrick Lanchoni's book, The Motive, but he was talking about Alan Mullally who took over Ford Motors when it was really struggling. And he talked about how Alan said to these executives who were just not kind to people, they were passive aggressive, they were swearing and calling people names and he called them into his office and he said, you have a choice. You can be here or you can leave. But if you're gonna be here, you need to.

follow what it is that we consider to be kind. You need to be respectful. You need to show up on time. You need to do all these things. And if you choose not to, that's okay. And I will still respect you. And we can still be, I think even use the word friends, but you can't do it here. And Patrick Lynch only called it joyful accountability. And I'm like, that's perfect. Sometimes it comes down to ultimately at the end of the day, it's your choice. You can choose to be here, but if you choose to be here, you have to choose to participate and you have to choose to try and you have to choose to be kind.

or leave, that's okay. But as leaders, it's important that we have the courage to be able to say that and to put that accountability on people because otherwise, again, we're giving them permission to do whatever it is that they want as opposed to what needs to happen for the team to survive and to thrive.

Tessa (22:06.816)
Absolutely.

Tessa (22:24.952)
Yeah, and I think it is important to understand the difference between a difficult person, someone you can't stand, and a difficult person that has to leave, right? Because again, we are all difficult and we all have things that we bring to the table that may annoy other people, and the majority of the population are willing to see that they are the problem at times. But there will be that small few that don't see it as them, that everyone else is the issue.

and you have to protect your organization. I saw a quote on LinkedIn, I can't remember who said it, and I'm gonna probably really mess it up, but it was to the effect of if you wanna be a great organization, sometimes you gotta let those people go. You gotta do those hard things. And I think, again, when it comes to people we can't stand, we have those people in our teams, in our organizations, in our families, and we sometimes hold onto them for a really long time.

even after we've tried to bring awareness into the conversation or they've brought in a facilitator like you and I, and they are still difficult. But we hold on to them because they're great, you know, producers. And again, organizations really need to consider if this is someone who's willing to move past those difficulties, those complications and those team dynamics, or if it's just time for them to go.

Desiree Petrich (23:44.076)
In a way, I kind of feel like this was a negative end to the conversation, but at the same time, I feel like it was the perfect way to wrap it up to say, do everything that you can to try, do everything you can to be more self-aware of the way you're impacting others and the way that you even impact yourself. Be willing to open up and listen to people and understand them and be empathetic towards them. But at the end of the day, do what you got to do.

Tessa (23:47.449)
haha

Tessa (24:10.722)
Yeah, and you know what, also to end it, it's not always the other person. I know we've said it a few times. It's not always the other person that's difficult. And so it's also that reminder that we need to understand, you know, what we're bringing to the table, what we're bringing to the conversation as well to make it difficult. It really is easy for me to think about. And I actually can't even think about a lot of people in my life that are difficult. I'm going to be honest. was, you know, when you even brought it to me, I was like, hey, who in my life can I?

not stand. And I can say it's because of the work that I've done. I'm sure if you asked me 10 years ago, I could have given you five names, but I just view people differently now. I view people as different. I view people as people I want to understand. And I am not perfect at this. I'm not saying I never get it wrong and I'm the most kind person you'll ever meet, but I do try to take a step back and really turn this and go, what am I missing here with this person? And if we make it our mission, and this might be a good way to end,

If we make it our mission to understand people, then perhaps there will be less people in our organizations, in our lives, in our families that we can't stand because now we understand them. Hey, and understand is in stand. Or stand is in understand. Look at that. Look what I just did.

Desiree Petrich (25:27.67)
It was perfect. I do need to add one last thing though, because you said at one point you're the problem. And I did a disrupt HR talk that was titled you're the problem and it's affecting your team. So I'm going to link that in the show notes. If anyone wants to go and take a look at that, it's going to just show you where you might be missing the mark and what you can do to overcome it. But thank you so much for tuning in. If you stuck around to the end, I hope you could follow our rabbit trail of kind of going down 12 different areas, but there's so many options to.

Tessa (25:37.38)
Ooh.

Tessa (25:52.868)
Ha

Desiree Petrich (25:54.732)
become a better, more courageous, more intentional leader. And I hope that one of these things sparked that in you today because leadership is a privilege, but it is also a really big responsibility and you're the boss now. So what are you gonna do with it?