When Trust Breaks & Peace Emerges: Inside The Stall Part 2 - Phyllis

A single unfair action can flip your whole inner world. When trust breaks, your brain doesn’t just look for answers, it starts writing accusations with your name on them. We sit with that reality and let it be as complicated as it is, because real overthinking isn’t abstract. It shows up as anger, sleepless nights, looping “what if” stories, and the exhausting sense that you have to fix something you didn’t do. 

We turn the lens toward Phyllis as she shares the two defining threads of her 2025: a painful, unjust professional situation that forced her to protect her family and rethink how she trusts, and a powerful personal decision to get serious about singing and perform publicly. Along the way, we talk boundaries, legal action, and the moment you realize peace of mind is worth more than ongoing nonsense. If you’ve ever felt stuck in a victim mindset or caught yourself replaying the same thought 800 times, you’ll recognize the pattern immediately. 

We also get practical about anxiety and the infamous 3 a.m. narrative: what it feels like, why it steals your life, and what actually helps in the moment. Phyllis shares grounding tools that range from gratitude done right to the surprising comfort of rewatching familiar stories when your nervous system needs certainty. Then we zoom out to the bigger theme of authenticity: impostor syndrome, vulnerability on mic, using your voice clearly, and learning to be afraid and do it anyway. 

If this conversation gives you even one “nugget” you can use today, do us a favor: subscribe, share it with someone who’s stuck in their head, and leave a review. What’s one fear you’re ready to name so it stops running the show?

Transcript

Welcome And Stall Humor

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Sometimes I wish we could go back to a time when things weren't so complicated.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Welcome to the complexity of toilet paper, the podcast that dives into the everyday moments where we overthink, hesitate, or just get stopped emotions. Through honest conversations, unexpected insights, and a whole lot of humor, your hosts Phyllis Martin, Mark Pollock, and Al Emmerich are here to help you roll with it and make your life a little less complicated. One conversation at a time. Right, dude. The beauty of this is its simplicity. Speaking of which, it's time to enter the stall. Put the lid down, or not, depending. Get comfortable and roll with it. Oh, worry not, dear friend. It's really quite simple. This is the complexity of toilet paper. When we jump into the stall, there is a purpose. There is an intention. We're not gonna overthink it. We're just gonna simply state the following. This episode is about to go behind the scenes, so once again, you can see our goods.

SPEAKER_03 1:21

So dicey.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Our our kibbles and bits.

SPEAKER_03 1:25

I hope not.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Our our dice. Better our ice.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

I don't know what that means.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

To understand I don't know either.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

I thought you were gonna say go behind the commode, uh which is dangerous back there, because you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Look, um I believe in the last episode I got a little naked. And you see, yeah, it's a reference. So I look, why do we do this show? We do this show because we want to help people make people's life a little bit easier one conversation at a time, right? Right. And we realized that we needed to take another step ourselves, not needed, we wanted to take another step ourselves to say, hey, what are we, what are we, what are we doing? Uh what are we overthinking? What what what has taken us to where we are right now that we can now be at almost 25 episodes of this show despite all the craziness? And in the last episode, if you haven't had a chance, this is the first, the second of three episodes. The first was behind the st inside the stall with me, and I kind of broke down the breakdown I had in 2025.

SPEAKER_03 2:51

Recap of the 2025 breakdown.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Which, by the way, by the way, I was talking to a dear friend of mine today, James Camerari. Love you, James. Don't know if you'll ever listen to the show because I don't know if you're a podcaster, but if you don't, I'm gonna toilet paper your house. Anyway, James and I have known each other since we played Little League Baseball together. And his advice to me, we haven't talked, it was strange because we usually talk at least once a month, but we hadn't talked in like five months, four months. And he was like, Okay, so you know, in this this new, this new, you know, burgeoning life of Al, don't overthink it. Keep it really simple. And I said, You do know I do a podcast about that, right? He's like, Oh, that's right, yeah. Well, then you should definitely be able to do that. Anyway, so we're we're going behind the scenes and inside the stall a little deeper to peel back the layers of where we are today, not just like, oh, hey, let's look at the past year and what did we learn, but like, no, what really happened? Because all three of us had some pretty seismic 2025. And yet here we are, individually and collectively, still doing a show, trying to avoid our overthinking, be present. And uh, in the proverbial, you know, analogy, we've had mountains to climb, we decided to share some of those mountains in a more meaningful way. And so today it's about Phyllis's mountains.

SPEAKER_03 4:19

Gonna really, no. Nope.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Oh no, it's not Phyllis. Yes. No, I'm not gonna say it. Just not gonna do it. It was right there, but I just I I just can't.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Mark, can you edit this scene right here? Because I'm watching. I've can you can you ever focus on somebody do something?

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Uh I you know, her name today, so uh you can't see it because well, we're just talking to you through, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Whatever this is.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Whatever this is. Um, but uh Phyllis has decided to name herself Sunday Martin. So uh maybe because we're recording this on a Sunday.

SPEAKER_03 5:06

I'm such a great actress's name. Sunday Martin. Which is better than Monday Martin. Oh, though Monday Martin sounds good. But today is Sunday, so it's Sunday Martin.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

The complexity of toilet paper, rated R, starring Sunday Martin. Coming to a theater near you or a bathroom stall. Um all right. So let's get to it. Um this is this was a this is an equity-based destalling. Uh version one was was was behind the scenes with Al. We flushed out a lot of stuff. Um now we are turning the lens uh or the toilet bowl brush towards Phyllis to scour underneath the the tile and really get to the grit of the shit that we call your life.

SPEAKER_03 5:58

Yes, the shit we call your life. I know that did not go.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Here's the shit about Phyllis's life. Go.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

Well, okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

All right. All right. Uh all kidding aside, then this is yeah, seriously. This is this is big. I mean, I and I think in many ways, Phyllis, this might be bigger for you. You tell me if I'm wrong, but I think this is bigger for you because um what? What? Why are you guys laughing at me?

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Oh this is a two for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

This is a two for me. Because we're getting me blushing, we're getting Phyllis's laugh. And and the the here's the bad part. I don't know what the fuck the two of them are laughing about.

SPEAKER_03 6:53

It's a little fashion. Mark started it.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

I did start it. I'm so Mark stole the cookies from the cookie jar. Who me? Yes, you, Matt. All right. Um, so can you sh shed some light on why that what what I missed? What did I miss?

SPEAKER_01 7:12

Just you just kept saying it was bigger for her. It's so big for you, it's bigger. Just you know, it's just childish humor. That's all it is.

SPEAKER_03 7:22

This is what happened.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Do you I'm 12? Hey, I'm 12.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Hey, podcast family. Podcast family. Do you realize what I have to deal with? Oh, please.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

Just back that.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

I'm trying I'm trying to bring I'm trying to bring Because you're the mature one in this group. I'm trying to bring some respect to the stall. I'm trying to What? This may be my favorite start to any show we've ever done.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Well, Phyllis, this is gonna be Sunday Martin. This is gonna be a big one, so let's do it. So big.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

All right. Welcome to Sunday Martin. Uh, this is the the exploratory version of Oh boy. Oh. Welcome to the show that went nowhere. 45 minutes of us just laughing. There was a destination. And maybe, who knows? Maybe it'll be the most downloaded show ever, and all the pressure's off. We can stop thinking and just go on.

SPEAKER_02 8:25

All right.

Why Go Behind The Scenes

SPEAKER_00 8:25

So if you missed, if you missed it, uh, we're gonna go ahead and start off basically with the reset, which we've already done, and now we're diving in, and that is Phyllis.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Joking not aside, but joking aside. Um what did you think about when we all agreed, hey, let's let's really go behind the scenes here and kind of share a lot more and be more vulnerable, and also tell the world um about our lives in a way that's we probably wouldn't normally go publicly.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

And that's the show, kids. Uh thanks for stopping by. This is what happened.

SPEAKER_03 9:09

Oh, that was deep when that was deep. Normally I am deep. No. I I felt like a couple things. Here's what I thought. I, you know, had a lot of thoughts. One is like a year ago, I don't know, six months ago, seven months ago, I probably would have been a little nervous about that. Um, but what I have found, uh, you know, by doing the podcast and just the um the ups and downs of life is that um we all, you know, we all struggle with very similar things, you know, humanity, human nature, ego, fear. Um, and so uh if sharing um is a way to let everybody know, um, or if if sharing helps people attach to something um that they've been going through or have gone through or have thought and makes things a little easier, or somebody finds a small tip to take away from, then yeah, I mean, why not share?

SPEAKER_00 10:13

Okay. So um it's expose time.

SPEAKER_03 10:19

You better ask a good question.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Oh, are we starting with questions, or are you just gonna go ahead and if you ask me a good question, then you might get a good answer. Mark. Mark, I'm sorry. Did we just pour it on me?

SPEAKER_03 10:33

Well, between the two of you, somebody's gonna ask a doozy.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Uh that'll be Mark, probably. Uh no, Mark will close it up. You okay? You got a cold? I think she's already emotional.

SPEAKER_03 10:43

I'm already boohooing. Uh I'm finishing up a cold.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 10:48

Yeah, I'm good.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

All right. I just wanted people to realize that was not toilet paper being watered up. If you're not visually seeing the show, you're hearing it. So had to happen. Uh okay. So Phil, when I jumped in last episode, um I just kind of basically threw up that, hey, um, 2025 sucked in many ways, but it was also this beautiful journey, right? Um we all wouldn't be here if we we we weren't cresting the wave and feeling like we're in good good a good place. What what was 25 2025 for you on a personal journey standpoint? And and what is the role that your own insight uh played about about that that year?

The Unjust Act That Shook Trust

SPEAKER_03 11:33

So 2025, as I had been thinking about it, uh to me boiled down to two main things. And one was faced with um what quite honestly was just an an unjust um action taken by another organization that put my family and I in a very precarious position and having to take the time to work through that um and figure out uh what to do to protect my family in a way that also sent the message or at least tried to, that um that shit ain't gonna fly was really very hard and scary. And I think to me, you know, that incident of somebody trying to steal something, take something that was mine without any right to do that, sent me reeling because it's not anything I would ever do from a professional perspective. I try so very hard to make sure that I am completely transparent in all aspects of my organization. So to have that happen, uh that in and of itself shook me uh to the core because I kept running around saying, and you two heard me say it, why is this happening? I didn't do anything wrong. Like I literally didn't do anything wrong. And now I'm in the position that I have to try to fix it. That doesn't seem right and protect my family. Um, and that was just um, I think the hard part of that for me was that I am, you know, I've I've said this on the show. I carry around my little flicker of hope. I always have hope. I'm very trusting. And we did the show on trust. I'm a very trusting person, never really thinking somebody's gonna give me that big of a reason not to trust. But that example um just changed how, in some ways, how I perceive and act in the world. And I ask a lot more questions. I'm not nearly as trusting as I once was wholesale. Um, and you know, I'm still a little pissed off about that. But it was very eye-opening and very hard, and in some ways, uh um very traumatic because I felt like uh a victim for a little while. And it took me a while to figure out how to not be a victim in it and just do what I had to do to make that to make that better. So there's like that that sucked up a lot of time and energy and resources unnecessarily. Um and that was just hard. What I did learn though is I can compartmentalize. And at some point early on, when all of that was happening, I made a very conscious decision to say, Phyllis, you can't wake up every day and this be the driving thing. You're gonna do what you need to do, that's gonna work itself out over time, but you have to learn to live in the moment, to look around and see what good is happening. Like that can't be the thing that clouds your everyday. And I'm gonna give myself high marks for being able to do that on the majority of days. There were days when that was not possible. Um, but for the most part, it really changed in a good way how I function in the daily world, which is really to try to stay in the, if not in the moment, at least in the day. And uh, you know, my husband has a great way almost daily of asking me what good happened today, which is a really good, like a really good way to to keep you in in align, in alignment and and kind of from going off the, you know, going into dark spaces a lot. The second thing um was the decision um to get more serious about singing and to get ready, as you all know, to like sing publicly. And that uh that's pretty cool. I feel pretty cool about it. And that's been a journey all unto itself. Uh and um yeah, like it's time. Uh no matter what the outcome of that, it's just time. And so that feels really great to actually be living something that I have, I don't want to say dreamt about, that's not right, but that I've wanted to do for a really, really, really long time. And I really enjoy doing it. And maybe that's all that matters.

SPEAKER_01 16:11

Well, thank you for sharing all of that. Um to go to go back in time a little bit, when you had that feeling of being a victim, if you could you know, unroll that for us a little bit and like help us understand what what was complex about feeling like a victim.

SPEAKER_03 16:37

Um I think feeling like the victim, uh just like the feeling of being afraid, um, like waking up every day and thinking, okay, when's the next uh uh bad thing going to happen that I actually can't control is for me was absolutely horrible. Not I don't think I'm a control freak by any sense of the imagination, but the unjustness of what was happening and the irresponsibility of the people and the organization and their horrific communication as that was going on was really unsettling and very frustrating because you're left then in many ways at the will of the people that you are, you know, who are saying that they're working on something when in essence they are not, or or even worse. Um, and then you were also um uh have to sit while you absolutely know that they are lying. They're just flat out lying, telling untruths. Um, and that uh, you know, you gotta you you don't have to do anything. I had to figure out uh it's not quite fight or flight, quite honestly, but you one does have to figure out like one's space and point of view while that while that is happening.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

How did you So you said you were still um You're still angry? Where did How did Phil how did you and maybe you're still are um negotiate frustration and anger and disappointment at yourself versus or or I'm not explaining this right. How did you navigate like yourself in this equation, like being angry at yourself, if you even were angry at yourself? Because like, look, what was done and and was was like you couldn't have seen that coming. You just like you you've said that, obviously we have some inside baseball to this, but you you couldn't have seen that coming. But yet I I I also remember you going, I'm so mad at myself.

SPEAKER_02 18:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

And you know, we put ourselves at the center of these things, even people who get robbed, you know, in the street or get, you know, have you know fraud committed to them or other things, they go, Oh man, how did I not do that? And they and we beat ourselves up, you know. Did did you beat yourself up in this? And if so, how did you navigate that? That's that's what I meant by that.

SPEAKER_03 19:16

So this is this this is so typical, Phyllis, and like part of I think overthinking. When it first happened, when I first realized what happened, I like the overarching thought I had was I did something wrong. I must have done something wrong. I didn't close things out when I left the organization. I left something unlike the whole thing. And then one day I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like ridiculous. It's like an it's ridiculous. Um, it's a ridiculous thought to have, quite honestly. And okay, maybe it's not a ridiculous thought to have, it's an unnecessary thought to have. And that in and of itself has changed most of my approach to we've taught, we've had numerous shows on these things. I just don't worry about it anymore. I have to trust myself. My intent is is good. If I've made a mistake, okay, fine. Then we're all human. We make mistakes and we will and we'll deal with it. I'm not angry with myself for what I'm about to say, but if I had to do it again, I would have done it differently. If I had to do it again, I would have taken very swift legal action up front and right right away. I would not have, oh, well, they say they're gonna work it out, it's gonna be okay, we're you know, I would not have done that. And that is very unlike me. It's it would it's just very unlike me. But in hindsight, I should have done that.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Were were you able to I I know you had briefly mentioned it to us, um, the things that that were going on, um, but not in a whole lot of detail because th it was difficult for you. And there was some legal stuff, so I think that you kind of played that close to the vest to get things straight. But how did you take you know, and and you listed some some some pretty big stuff here. I mean, that you you were a victim, that that people were lying to you, that they said that they were moving things forward and that they weren't, and and now you're saying, gosh, I I should have gotten legal action earlier. How how did you rely on others to kind of get through some of that stuff? How did you stop overthinking uh when you woke up? Um and and the the reason I asked that is because I know when things are going on in in my own life, uh, you know, I'll wake up at three o'clock with my mind racing. I didn't even want to wake up and it's just racing with thoughts and ideas, and it's got all these stories and lies that I'm uh my brain is telling to myself. H how did how did you navigate that with others, with yourself? What did that look like?

SPEAKER_03 21:58

That is where I'm Super grateful to have family and friends who did not mind hearing me ask 800 times, is it gonna be okay? It's gonna be okay, right? It's gonna be okay. I didn't do anything wrong. Like just like that over and over. It's actually when Toby was on, like the thing you she didn't say shouldn't, but like that replay over and over again is actually more harmful. But really what saved me was having just great family and friends who one were willing to listen. And two, uh, I just believed when they said it would be okay, that it would be okay. That it really would, no matter what the outcome. Let me, let me, let me make this like perfectly clear. If I walked it out to the very worst possible outcome, it still would have been okay. I would have been mad, but I would have, it would have been okay. And on there were days when I just had to do that multiple, multiple times.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

What was the balance for you as you came towards closure with this? You you know, you took legal action, you had to make things happen. Was there a point where you realized I'm on the other side of this? Uh and and and I'm curious. Was there a specific lesson in the show that you are going to carry that you I mean you referred to some some moments in different shows, but I mean, is there a specific moment that stands out to you where you're like, ah, okay. The pe everything everything aligns now and I can move forward?

Choosing Peace Over Prolonged Conflict

SPEAKER_03 23:43

I think when I got and Tim and I had a lengthy discussion about this toward the very end, we just made a decision that uh our peace and sanity was worth more than ongoing just ongoing nonsense. And the truth is I get to wake up and be me every day, and which I enjoy on most days. Um, and I have a very I'm very happy and very grateful that I have a very lovely life. Um and that really uh just it just made sense. Like in that moment, just sometimes peace of mind or just peace is worth walking away. And when we got to that, um uh uh I just knew that that was the right thing for me. It was the right thing for us. Um, you know, I can look at myself in the mirror every day knowing I did uh act it in a way that I felt like was authentic to me. Um and uh it was just time, uh it was time to move on. It doesn't mean that I will forget what happened because I won't forget what happened. Um, but it does mean that I have 12,000 other amazing things I want to focus on, and you know, which includes everything from, you know, playing with my dog to being there for my friends to singing to, you know, being the best that I can be and do the best I can do for the organization that I represent, all of these things, like my whole life. And that takes a lot of energy. And the amount of energy that um worry and fear and mark, you like that wake up at three in the morning with some narrative that, you know, by six o'clock doesn't make so much sense, but like that churn of a narrative, um, that takes too much energy. That just sucks. That really is a life, a life sucker. Um, and I don't I don't want to do that because that's not authentically who I am. I will tell you the three and three a.m. churn, that thing, that narrative. I always look for the morsel, the grain of truth in that there's something in there I will speak for myself that is reminding me that I need to check to make sure I am using my voice clearly and then I'm communicating clearly. Usually that to me means I haven't said something that needs to be said, a question hasn't been asked that needs to be asked, something like in that pocket. So I try to use that time to really, you know, when I do wake up at three, concerned, worried, anxious, nervous, angry, sad, whatever, scared, um, to really think about what's true in that as it as it pertains to my voice.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

So you quick oh uh let me just ask you in this quick moment, what's your grounding, Phil? Like when you do wake up at three, um, like from a functional standpoint, like for m example, for me, um yes, you can make fun of this, but showers are are uh and and and that that time is big for me, right? So I will listen to um now I finally after all these years, I found I listen, and I think I mentioned it in the last show, Tony Robbins. Um I listen to uh a couple motivational channels. I listen to um some of my own writings. Um I listen to Jim Rome, the not the Jim Rome, the sports guy, but the old Jim Rome. Um Wayne Dyer, you know, and and so I've got this blend of stuff that that helps remind me in addition to my own manifestations and things. What is your tool or tools? Like how do you get back off the ledge?

SPEAKER_03 27:28

So I have a couple of tools. Um I don't want to tell you one of them, but I'm gonna. Uh but I'm gonna tell it to you, and I'm gonna say that there is um anyway, there's a guy whose name I can't think of, uh, which I will find, who um acknowledges that what I'm about to say is very grounding for people who like and there's like a scientific reason behind it. I watch an inordinate amount of uh Sex in the City reruns. For some reason, there's something in the narrative, the story that just calms me down. So there is that part. I mean, and I think I've seen every show like 200,000 times already, but there's just something about the characters, the show, the storyline that kind of just quiets part of my brain. And then there are the other things that I can hear, like Tim breathing next to me. I can see the dog like sleeping in his bed, or as the case may be, as he's getting older, not sleeping in his bed, but I I know, I know that he is there. I will um sometimes think about what I'm grateful for, like think about things and not like the usual things. I try to like check myself and think about like things I haven't thought of in a while. So there's a you know, there's a lot of stuff that goes into that.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

So um I have a question, but the I've read somewhere that the reason that we watch the same thing over and over again is because we know the ending and it's comforting that we know the outcome. Yeah. Um so so my my question is is this. So you had this this ongoing fear for a long time about singing in front of others. And you said that that was a decision that you made in in 2025 to sing in 2026. So I'm curious, this event that we've been talking about, what impact did it have on you making the decision, or did it have an impact on you making a decision to go ahead and sing? Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 29:22

I think I think it its impact is um also along with like just getting older in general, um, is um I don't know another way to say it. I don't care. Like I I am done caring so much that the only one that gets hurt in that or gets shut down in that is me. So I I don't I don't care. I actually said this to my voice coach, like on our like one of our earlier, because when we were talking about wanting to do this and like singing at my birthday party and the whole thing, like publicly singing. I said, I don't even think I care what people think. I'm doing it because I want to do it. I'm doing it because I think I have something to say through the the um lyrics of the song. I'm pretty clear um that I'm a storyteller in that way and that'll evolve over time. And you're the collective, like your um thoughts on that do not matter to me. I hope that you find something to take away. And if you don't, that's okay. Like very selfishly, I'm actually doing that for me. And I hope there's like a something that happens for other people who listen.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Yeah. Yeah. What was was there a change in you though to not care? I guess uh what I guess I'm trying to get at is did did the events have any correlation that when this thing happened, you're like, you know what, screw it. I don't care anymore. I'm gonna do this thing. Or or are they two separate things?

SPEAKER_03 30:56

I think they're probably two separate things.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 30:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

I love what you just said in that I just don't care. Um as I think back even to my conversation, I mentioned earlier in the show with my friend James, who I was catching up with today. Um I used to say I don't care. And my family would cry bullshit. They'd be like, Yeah, you do. Um I there was a time that even I would never have gone where we've gone to on this show. Um one-on-one, sure. I mean, intimate friendships and partnerships and all that, yeah, no problem. But to get on a freaking podcast and do that, to to let strangers that close, um, and I I just think, Phil, uh I think that's I just want to applaud you for that because um you've both professionally and personally been in a position where you have to pay attention to how people think and and you've had to be forced to go, well, wait a minute, what is what do they care? Like when I was on television, I was told very explicitly some certain things I could not do publicly and talk about publicly because it was gonna cost me my role. Right? Even when I was, you know, it doesn't matter, is your show. So I good for you for arriving at I don't care and being comfortable with that. Because isn't that so much of what stymies us when we overthink things?

unknown 32:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

We're worried about we're worried about what other people are gonna think and say, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_03 32:39

I only worry and I don't worry. I think people who know me, and even if you're just getting to know me, I'm not a mean person. My intent is never to hurt anybody. And if you get hurt because of something that I said, then let's talk about that so that I can learn and hopefully you can learn too. That's very different from I'm afraid to say something because I'm afraid I'm going to hurt you, or I'm afraid you're going to misconstrue what I'm saying, or I'm afraid that my words will get taken out of context, any any of those things. Um go ahead, Mark.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

No, I was just listening. I I I I think that's just a whole new level of authenticity, right? Because you show up, and I've always shown up as an authentic person, um, but it was a tempered version of you because you wouldn't say certain things. But now you're you're you're putting you're putting that forward with kindness, with with good intent, um, but but you're showing up fully as as authentic Phyllis, and I think that's that's pretty cool.

Impostor Syndrome And Finding Voice

SPEAKER_00 33:53

We are still in active mode, the three of us, running into our own complexity and complication. The development of this show, moving it forward, growing an audience, yada yada yada. Um we also have our own individual, you know, challenges and such. Um and and I want to I want to restate that how important it is, because this show has never been a solution. It is just a GPS for a different mindset of conversation and thought flow, right? That's it. So hopefully you're you're gathering something that's uh a nugget of meaningfulness. For you, Phyllis, what's the nuggets of meaningfulness? Like, because I I actually want to step back before you answer that question. I want to I want to bring up something else. You did not talk about the show. And as your friend for for a very long time. That's true. Yeah, man. That's right. Time to time to take off the granny pants. Um, please keep it on. I just minimized everything. We probably needed some levy. So yeah, so Phil, I mean, okay, you had this bomb drop, you dealt with it, the singing. Yeah. But let's talk about this show for a minute. Because that's really what I meant in the beginning when I said this is probably um a a bigger step for you, Phil, because for you to overcome what what did you overcome to get to to nearly 25 episodes with this show? And and that's that's what I'd like and sharing this, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:35

So not only 25 episodes, but now doing this.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

I want to and I'm I don't don't mean this in a in a in a in a nudge way, and I don't mean it in an egging on, but I do mean let's dig a little deeper, like break through that that level.

SPEAKER_03 35:51

Yeah, so it breaks a couple of ways. So there was the like imposter syndrome of uh like who do I think I am to like be on a podcast. Even though I knew I wanted to do it and I knew eventually I could do it, there was a lot of, you know, the perfectionist in me, you know, what if I cough? What if I have a tissue and have to blow my nose? What if I talk over somebody? Like all the newness of it, right? Just the newness and not knowing the rules for somebody who needs some kind of rules. Um, and then even when I knew the rules, then I'm like, oh my God, what if I break the rules? What's gonna happen? All of the things. Um, and I feel like that's kind of how I came to it, like a little concerned and a little, you know, to be in the stall with you two who are professionals and seasoned and have all of this experience. Not intimidating. It just made me um question my own value in doing this. I have to say that it honestly, a lot of getting to hear was because of the kindness and generosity of and patience um of the two of you. And I've said that before in in different posts, in different posts that we have, that we have done, and even sometimes in the decisions that you were willing to make um to help me move along and just feel um more secure in doing it. So let's just start with that. Two uh like uh it's like um a sport or learning to sing or playing an instrument. You got to practice, right? I mean, and practice requires you ask questions of yourself. And practice requires you take risks when it's showtime. And practice requires you're really thinking about what's preventing you in this, you know, what might be preventing me from saying something, being natural, being comfortable, just being myself. Um, and that was a lot of work behind the scenes. But some of that was made possible as I was listening to the guests that we had on the show. Beautiful, perfectly imperfect people. So as I watched them come on and have technical difficulties or, you know, stumble over something or whatever the case may be, it dawned on me that we all are just um human beings trying to do good in the world and listening to some of their tips and their advice really did help me um just feel more comfortable. Um, I think part of my truth in this is um I'm pretty good, I'll give myself good marks on trying things that I inherently know will get me to where I want to go, but that I'm too afraid to go, that I've put up barriers to going. And and I think we agreed when the three of us came to the table, that first conversation. We all had some of that. And we all were gonna, we all were gonna work on that. Um the thing, if I might say this, um, that I think too few people do because it's really hard to do, is to face that and keep walking forward and just keep trying and keep exploring what it is that's I mean, it's a lifetime journey. I mean, it's a lifetime journey. I'm still on the journey. We're all still on the journey. Um, but man, it's a really good feeling when those barriers start to come down. When you not they come down, when you remove the barriers, when you are able to remove the barriers and just be comfortable with who you are and not worry. Somebody's gonna get upset about something I say or you say, or the three of us collectively say. And there's gonna be learning in that for everybody. We don't have to walk through the world, we don't have to walk through life fearing that. That doesn't mean I'm not gonna be afraid sometimes, but it can't be the thing that that leads my life.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

What I'm hearing you say is in its own way, you have found yourself within this show. Yeah. Or a version of yourself, right? Like when I think about what you just said, and I think about what I've learned about you, how often I go, oh my god, I had no idea how funny you were, right? And um with Mark, you know, I never realized how he could just synthesize things crazy, like to a to a T. Um me realizing, oh wow, I can do this without being the radio guy, and that's okay. And this ongoing journey that we're all on, you know. But uh that's what I meant in the beginning when I said I I felt like this was harder, maybe, because you've taken taken the longest journey to be more vulnerable. I did. Yeah, I know it does. It's just so hard. Yes. He's the guy that buys the dozen eggs, by the way, when your house gets egg. We never we we talked about it, but Mark went and bought the freaking egg. I did. I was gonna do it. I felt bad afterwards, though.

SPEAKER_03 41:03

Now, let me also say this. Let me just say one more thing. So I want to be clear with people who are listening. When I call uh my bestie Jackie, and I'm talking through some things with her, and she'll say, God, I wish there was a podcast that talked about not overthinking. Maybe you should call them. So you know it's lifelong. Yeah. Lifelong work.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Yeah. I've had those conversations where they're like, Well, did you listen to episode seven uh that talks about that? And I'm oh yeah, I guess I didn't. Oops.

2026 Practices For Fear And Freedom

SPEAKER_00 41:37

So um nail, hammer to nail, like what is the hard and true 2026 for you? Like, gosh, I uh I've got I kind of walked through this fire and this is this is what this year means. And I'm not talking about the podcast and all that crap. I just mean like what does it mean for you? Like, and try to be specific, right? Like, what is what is gonna be different or what is already different that that you're walking through?

SPEAKER_03 42:08

Um, wowser, that is a good question because I feel like 2025 was so different. Like it spent 2025 trying to get to different. So here we are in 2026. So here's let me say this. I think what I learned in 2025, that as much as I try to protect myself and my family from having anything in air quotes bad happen, at some point something in air quotes bad is going to happen, like not on my agenda, something comes out of the blue. Um, could you know, it could be anything. And so uh for 2026, I'm gonna try to embrace that just a little bit because you know, it's it takes a lot of, again, it takes a lot of energy if you're always in protection mode, whether you know it or not. So that's super high on my on my radar uh list. And I also think I'm gonna practice um um this is not gonna come out right. So I want to, before I say it, let me think about if I can explain it. Kind of like um the things maybe that I used to care about that were barriers that like I've alluded to. I'm gonna practice I don't care ism, like I don't care about it isms. I'm just gonna really trust in myself, uh, trust in my work, know that I'm yeah, it's all gonna be good. I'm gonna use my voice when I need to or when I want to. Um and hopefully uh, you know, cool stuff keeps happening.

SPEAKER_01 43:47

You know, you you you through all of this, I think the common theme has, you know, do not be afraid, right? And I think that's been a common lesson. That we've all kind of gone through. Um, but if you could share with everyone what that means to you not to be afraid, because you you've said it a few times, you're not afraid, but then there's times where you are you're afraid. So it's not a it's not a a total abandonment of of having that that fear, but it's it's it sounds to me like you have that fear, but you're going to do it anyways. And so a lot of times when people say, Well, don't be afraid, it's very tough to take that type of advice because we're, and you say it all the time, we're human beings. We have fear. So how are you in 2026, when that fear comes up, make sure that that doesn't, that doesn't get in the way anymore?

SPEAKER_03 44:44

Yes. I had a great therapist of mine one time say, be afraid, like, okay, be afraid and do it anyway. And I just, you know, I I will be afraid of some things. I don't know if it's afraid or it's like you have to figure out what you're afraid of. So that's the work, Mark, in like 2026 for sure. It's I don't, you know, if I'm gonna be afraid of something, then I gotta sit with that for a minute and and get down to what what what in it is what I'm really afraid of. Is it an outcome? Is it a what is it? What failure? Like what is it that's making me feel afraid? And if I know that, then I can do anything.

SPEAKER_00 45:29

I love it. The the image, uh I'm not being funny, but you I this was popping into my head when you were talking about singing and you were like, oh, you know, I don't really care. I um I think about the people who do karaoke, not and the ones specifically not well, right? Yeah. And I, you know, like nobody ever, well, I'm sure nobody, I'm sure somebody does. They they probably get kicked out of the place. But nobody rarely ever just looks at somebody sucking at karaoke and goes, uh they they may go, oh wow, but they're like that well, at least that sum of gun is owning it, right? Yeah, and it's it's that age-old expression, go just get up there, and if you're gonna suck, be the best at sucking at it, right? Give it your all. Because at the end of the day, it is, and I don't know the the the the psychology behind it, the name of it, there is an actual name for it. But when we see people giving 100% and even not doing well, we're drawn to root them on because we desire that same freedom within ourselves. We desire that same permission. It's one of the reasons, and I can say this with with facts, it's so many people um are drawn to individuals on the spectrum and with special needs. You know, there's a freedom, an innocence. Uh, I'm willing to try anything. And, you know, people will find great joy in in that journey. But more importantly, they do because all they do is they see the good of what the moment is. And I remember I was given the keynote at the ARC State Conference last year in 2025, uh, Florida State ARC, you know, that serves special needs communities all over the country. And they had this DJ and the group's going, and these kids are dan adults too, are just dancing and letting it loose. And this guy tripped and he fell and he was okay. But he, but he's literally, I went over to help him up. He's like, No, I'm just gonna spin on the ground. I like it down here. That's what he said. I'm just gonna he tripped and fell. He's like, I'm just gonna, and I thought, what a great moment, because he just went with it and he did not shivigate. And that's the freedom that I think we all seek. That so far, Mark, you know, you're you're still gonna be in the stall, but that's what I hear, Phil, is the common thread between between us in our own different journeys, yet we're each experiencing through this show in part, the ability to kind of be more free. Is that accurate?

SPEAKER_03 48:10

Yeah. I'm gonna whenever you were when you were talking, I started thinking about this. So I was telling somebody about um um at one of my singing lessons. Um I said, you know, it wasn't perfect. I was telling her to saying, I said, you know, it wasn't perfect, but I could tell that like the people who are also listening were moved because like some of them, you know, got a little teary-eyed, like had tears in their eyes. I said, but it wasn't perfect. And she said, it's not about perfect. It's about your ability to connect, your, my ability to connect to a story and share that. And in that, um, I was like as I was sitting here thinking while you were talking, I was also thinking about, especially in 2026, a lot of times throughout the course of my career, I have said a hundred times, if not more, oh, you know, I I know one thing about myself is I'm usually early with the message. If I'm talking to a board or I'm talking to a group of people, I I I I am not saying that anymore. I am not early with the message because I'm not taking responsibility for people's inability to absorb the message. There's a difference. There's an absolute difference. It is not that my message is early. It is sometimes people aren't ready to hear it.

SPEAKER_00 49:40

Mark, I don't even think we need a mm-hmm. I mean I'm done. You need to you want to follow that up? No, I'm not stupid. I mean, I can't I mean she just delivered the message.

SPEAKER_03 49:53

I mean, I just yeah, I'm just not gonna apologize for that anymore. That probably came out a little harsh, but I think the point is I'm not apologizing for what comes like why.

Grace And Self Love To Close

SPEAKER_01 50:06

Here would be my final my final question then. So as as we leave the stall and you have shared so graciously your 2025 and and and where you're you're headed, what what would be if someone listening to the show is dealing with something of some magnitude, which likely they are, I think we all are. Um, what would be a a a piece or two of advice that you've you've put into practice uh that's authentic, that's real, that works for you, and if they're ready for the message that they're ready to accept it?

SPEAKER_03 50:45

I think the overarching thing that comes to mind when you say that is give yourself some grace to feel what you feel and think what you think. Um spend some time I've said this before, um trying to figure out or examining or working through what is what is it, because it's the it is never as it presents itself. There's something, usually something could be something easy, could be something deeper, could be any of those things. But at the end of the day, um what I have really learned over the course of you know between 2025 and 2026. If I don't like myself or love myself and give myself grace, um like that, no, there's not a you cannot give enough of that to me. I actually have to own that and figure that out for myself. And again, not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Um, but if I can't do that, then I'm not sure how I expect anything else to happen, like external facing, because we're all just hanging around mirror, like looking, it's all a mirror image, right? So you you gotta be clear on that and keep trying. It doesn't happen overnight. Um, we all go in and out, we take steps backwards, we take steps forward. But somehow, um, I think the work of the work is to, is to try to figure some of that out.

SPEAKER_01 52:25

Well, one thing that you didn't mention that really resonated with me today, though, um, which I'd I'd want to just kind of put a finer point on is know yourself and know what you're afraid of. Yeah. And and that kind of thought process could remediate, remediate, remediate um that fear. Because you worked, you worked through some fears. You you ran that down to the bloody end. And you're like, you know what, I'm still gonna be okay. And so I think the the lesson I got today, on top of uh the other ones that you just mentioned, because grace is important, is just get to know your what are you afraid of? Uh what are you afraid of? And not what others are afraid of about you or whatever, but what are you afraid of and and work through that? And you know, calling that out and looking that in the mirror. Pretty incredible. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_03 53:22

You are welcome.

SPEAKER_00 53:26

Pretty good scrubbing, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 53:28

I knew I was waiting. I knew either like the word scrub or hard or mountain.

SPEAKER_00 53:34

We got a toothbrush out, a little bit of Clorox bleach, we got that big wiry brush. I don't know what that sounds like.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

Go to Al's house. He's cleaning the bathroom, he's like, oh boy, he's a dead with the tooth.

SPEAKER_00 53:55

This is the complexity of toilet paper. Did you say toilet paper?