The Complexity Of Giving: How Charity, Choice, and Intent Collide For Greater Good

Giving should feel generous, so why does it so often feel heavy? We’re sitting in the stall with one of the most human problems out there: the urge to help colliding with overwhelm, doubt, and the fear that whatever we do will never be enough. Phyllis Martin brings decades in philanthropy and nonprofit work, Mark Pollock gets honest about feeling inadequate and confused by what happens after you write the check, and Al Emmerich pushes us to separate real generosity from hidden expectations. 

We talk about why some causes are easier to support than others, how personal stories shape charitable donations, and how quickly “I want to help” turns into “I want to control.” We dig into donor trust, transparency, and the simple move most of us avoid: asking better questions. Call the organization. Learn how the money moves. Ask what changed because donors gave, and what they learned when things did not go as planned. We also name something that rarely gets said out loud: you can stop giving for valid reasons, including frustration, shifting priorities, or losing hope. 

Then we zoom out from nonprofits entirely. Giving can be time, mentoring, emotional support, and a moment of presence that costs nothing but changes everything. One story in particular reminds us that generosity can look like a hug offered to a grieving stranger, no fixing required, just humanity. 

If you’ve ever wondered how to choose a charity, how to give without guilt, or how to make your philanthropy feel aligned instead of complicated, this conversation is for you. Subscribe, share this with a friend who overthinks giving, leave a review, and tell us: what does “enough” generosity look like to you?

Transcript

Welcome To The Stall

SPEAKER_05 0:01

And I wish we could go back to a time when things weren't so complicated.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Welcome to the complexity of toilet paper, the podcast that dives into the everyday moments where we overthink, hesitate, or just get emotic. Through honest conversations, unexpected insights, and a whole lot of humor, your hosts Phyllis Martin, Mark Pollock, and Al Emmerich are here to help you roll with it and make your life a little less complicated. One conversation at a time. Right, dude, the beauty of this is the simplicity. Speaking of which, it's time to enter the stall. Put the lid down or not, depending. Get comfortable and roll with it. Ooh, what it not, dear friend. It's really quite simple. This is the complexity of toilet paper.

SPEAKER_04 1:02

Help? I just need somebody help. I just need anybody help.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

The Beatles, ladies and gentlemen. As if you couldn't tell. Phil? Mark, did you hear that? Did that sound I heard it.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

I got it.

SPEAKER_03 1:17

Thank you. And for those of you that are Beatles fans that are also in the stall with us, I apologize.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Apologize. I do.

SPEAKER_03 1:23

I do. To John Paul Ringo and um the other one? The other guy? George. George. Uh good. Now I've forgotten the other being. A dub apology.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

A double apology.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

Well, there went the remaining two and a half listeners. Um what is going on? I want to give you something. I want to give you a hard time, as I always do. I want to give you my love. I want to give you a hug. And I want to give you a great show. How do you feel right now?

SPEAKER_01 1:59

I was thinking about it. Let's go with the great show. Yeah, let's go with that. I like that. I mean, a hug's good too, but you know.

SPEAKER_03 2:06

Good afternoon, evening, morning, manana, midday, late night, whenever you happen to be drawing your eardrums into the scope of the stall. This is the complexity of toilet paper. If you're a first timer in the stall, roll up the toilet paper and get ready for a healthy discussion. If you've been with us forever and a day, God bless you. I hope you now have a lifetime supply of toilet paper because my name is Al Emmerich. And my name is Mark Pollack.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

I'm still Phyllis Martin.

SPEAKER_03 2:41

Yes. The distinctive pause, of course, there dramatically, but also she's severely distracted, probably reading emails right now. Uh just kidding. And uh, this is the show that unpacks the complexities of life one conversation at a time. Um, we don't rehearse anything, um, as that as if that's not obvious. We obviously some of us take singing lessons. Phyllis does. Check out her story about that in one of our episodes. I don't. Um, but the reason that we opened this conversation with that uh horrible uh sing and song version of help is we have recently traversed the topic of giving.

Why We Give And Who Helps

SPEAKER_03 3:23

And on this team, this this triad of stallmates, you've got Phyllis. Phyllis, what what's your world in in giving and nonprofits? Just give give everybody the quick backstory.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Yeah. So I have uh both been a um recipient of nonprofit organizations. Um, and then I have worked uh uh in philanthropy for about 30 something years now in a variety of positions.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

And I think it's important to note that you not only were involved with that, but you you saw from the inside out, from the assessment standpoint, the data standpoint, what needs are in a community and how money flows and is distributed. Correct?

SPEAKER_00 4:12

I have. And we'll talk more about not just the the distribution of money, um, but that needs, how needs in a community are typically, I know there are many types of of organizations out there, but when we think about um their people or animals, their lives. And we tend to think about this in terms of something else sometimes, I think. So eager to eager to have that discussion. Data points are are people or other life forms.

SPEAKER_03 4:45

Yeah. Data's just data without a human being behind it. So um and I it's so important because your perspective is not only is this host and co-host and partner and community-minded, passionate enthusiast, and a giver yourself, but also professionally you've got years under the belt. Mark, what what's your connection to philanthropy, giving, nonprofits, charity, that whole concept of world?

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Honestly, not much. Um I've worked in the only kind of nonprofit world that I have worked in um was in is has been in higher education. So, but but on a kind of a different side of the house. So uh I'm excited about this conversation because, you know, um I do I do give, I do support nonprofits, um, but I'm very interested in this conversation and where it leads and the complexity of the kind of the back end of this. And and we actually don't have a lot of work conversations, the three of us. And so I'm I'm fascinated by this. I'm very excited to dive in.

SPEAKER_03 5:53

And um I've I've seen it from uh I think a unique vantage point. Uh I've worked for nonprofits, yes, um, in marketing, communications, and fundraising, fund development, strategic planning. I've I have helped co-found um you know two nonprofits and led the startup of of a nonprofit. But the majority of my time was actually as a spokesman, as a brand spokesman carrying the message of uh nonprofits uh globally, actually. And and so the voice of that organization to to be a conduit for giving. Um so so okay, now you got some background there. Uh here's here's kind of some foreground or background for this. First of all, this whole idea of charity, right? Um well, first of all, if you think about it, last year alone, Americans gave nearly $600 billion to charitable causes. That's B with a billion or billion with a B. Um, about two-thirds of those dollars um actually came not from foundations or corporations, but from people. Individuals giving money, um, and asked a question, how can I help? Or maybe they didn't ask the question, maybe they were told to help. Who knows? That's what we're gonna unpack. So tonight, or today, whatever, we wanted to really talk about this concept of giving, because each of us has come across this idea of, well, why do we give? And there's so many different ways to give. And I think I even said uh once, Phyllis, I was like, Yeah, it's it's almost like going to Netflix. It's like, you know, you got all these choices. You can give here, you can give there. So, what drives that? Um, and and so what are the expectations? Why do we give? Uh and this is our our opinion. I I just want to remind you that we're not here to solve something, we're here to introduce uh layers of thought that hopefully lead to less complexity. Sometimes we muck that up pretty good and we actually get more complex. But our goal is to lay out some thoughts so that maybe you bring this back to your dinner table or breakfast or lunchroom and uh have a conversation that's that's less cumbersome. Um and and obviously there's a lot of passion around this. So let's just kind of start this off, right? Like okay.

Heart Versus Head In Charity

SPEAKER_03 8:18

When we think about the idea of giving, I think the first question is who gets my help? Right? Um and what's driving that? So, Phil, I I'm gonna I'm gonna start with you. Like, there's this whole head-heart tension around this idea of why people support other one cause versus another. And and so my first question is why are some causes easier to support than others? And what's the relationship of the head and the heart to that? Or is it two separate items?

SPEAKER_00 8:55

I don't know. I think people give in particular ways. They give to causes they care about, and that could be from a family experience, it could be something that happened to them, it could be they were served by an organization, it could be they know somebody who was served by an organization. It could be that somebody asked them, their friend asked them, and they said, Yes, I will do it. There are a million reasons why people give. Most of them are personal in some in some form or fashion. Um and I, you know, I can speak personally. I give because I in in my mind, um, there are causes that I care about, subsets of people that have different issues that I want to try to um impact. Sometimes I give just because I think it's the right thing to do. And that's a that's a personal that's my personal judgment on myself. I think there's there's somebody in need and I think it's the right I think it's the right thing to do. And I have no um attachment um necessarily um to the outcome. But I see something, someone needs help, um, they've asked for help, I've stepped in to give to provide help.

SPEAKER_03 10:10

Does this does this mean even for people who might you might not have a connection to whatever it is that they're asking? They may just say, Hey, will you help me? I'm I'm riding on this thing or I'm doing this thing. Would you support my whatever?

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and I have been this way since I was little. My husband would tell you, I'm always giving money away. Um he usually says you're always giving our money away. Um but I really do believe inherently that um I should share what I have. And if there are people in need or people who sometimes there are people who work with organizations or people doing work that I would never be able to do. I don't have it in me. It's not my experience. I don't want to, but it seems important and likely is important. Um, so I'll support that. It doesn't mean I'm supporting it forever, um, but it means that I, that I will, that I will do it. There are a lot of um issues and causes and people that are in need of help. And I said this like I'm gonna say it a little differently here. I can't remember. Mark, remember we were talking about animals in one of our sessions? And I was saying how Finn, my dog, is getting older. And I hope that, you know, when I get to be his age, you know, in people years, of course, that somebody will care about me and for me in the way that I care about him. And I feel that way about charity as well. I hope that if I were ever in need, somebody or some entity, some organization, some individual or set of individuals would step in to help me without judgment, um, without expecting anything in return, um, but because in their heart they thought it was the right thing to do. And I think in part, that's where things get complex. It's actually um, I think on those who are giving where it gets pla complex, can get complex and on their expectations.

SPEAKER_03 12:06

And you're talking about not just money, you're you're talking about giving in general, whether it's your giving of your time or your resources, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:14

Yep. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

What about you, Mark?

When Giving Triggers Guilt

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Yeah, I mean, I'm sitting here listening to Phyllis talk about how she gives and and what she does, and I just get the impression I just don't do enough. Right? Like I I'm really struggling um with this conversation from the onset, and and I I don't know if other listeners can can relate, but um I feel like I I give to the the the folks who are close to m closest to me, like I'm I'm always trying to do for the kids, yeah, friends and and and whatnot, you know, there's there's the the the the giving at church which is which is a thing, but it's not um from a money perspective, um and I I keep trying to tell myself that you know, yeah, I'm I'm helping those who are close to me. I try to mentor people and and and um support where they're going. But when I think of organized non-profit work, I I do a really shitty job. Like there's not there's not a uh uh there's not a nonprofit I'm associated with. There's not um there's not a place that I've spent time volunteering. Um I I spend a lot of my time with again those people that I know and that I'm I'm close with, but I I don't go outside that circle. And so my complexity is when I think about it, I I typically get overwhelmed. Um, and so I just I stay with those who who who come to me. So I I don't know, I I feel a bit inadequate in that space as as far as am I doing enough? Am I doing enough?

SPEAKER_03 14:03

That's so I've been sitting here patiently, and thank you. I've learned from this show to just sit and listen before you jump in. But again, for anybody that doesn't know, we don't script a show. We kind of have an outline of the topics we want to talk about. So Mark just jumped into the later topic, but Oh, I'm sorry. No, no, you're good. Well, that's why we don't script the show because we let it flow. I didn't mean to say that rhyme. Um this time I didn't. Mark, that that is part of the complexity, is that this part of this question is the complexity of giving. How you give um is up to you. It is the act of unselfishness, the act of caring for others, the act, dude. You give all the time. There's never been a time where you haven't been there for me. There hasn't been a time when you haven't offered incredible knowledge. Do I need to remind you of the drive back from Charleston, South Carolina when forgive me, Jesus was sitting in the backseat or Moses, depending. Whatever. I mean, you give beautifully. You give to your children, you give to to Valerie, you give to so many other people. Um so just because it's not tied to a 501c3 that's legally connected to the tax system does not mean one is not a giver. Right, Phil? You can give another. Thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

I have a very close friend who says, um who tells me frequently to carry my grain of sand. And if we each understood what our grains of sand were and just carried that one grain of sand, then we can see beautiful. She doesn't say this part, I am. She says carry a grain of sand. I'm saying if we all do that, then who knows like what's possible. And so, Mark, your grain of sand is just different than my grain of sand. It doesn't make it better or worse. It but it really does. It's we all come to it in our in our in our own ways. And sometimes I give to organizations and sometimes I give straight to people. It just it just depends.

SPEAKER_03 16:16

Um so I told you all prior to the start of the show that I had a story that happened and I didn't know if it would come into play or not. Um

A Stranger’s Grief And A Hug

SPEAKER_03 16:28

and I'm gonna go ahead and share it now because this is giving, right? But it's not charity in any sense of a structured charity, and I'll give it, I'll make it very quick, even though it was incredibly powerful. It is truly one of the most transformational moments I've ever had in my life. Um I had gone to a show uh for a dear friend's uh son-in-law um who performed in Jacksonville, and uh ironically, the show was about uh church and evangelist and kind of rubbing against the grain. Uh it was very, very um caustic in many ways, but a great theatrical production. It really made you think about organized religion and stuff like that and God and what God wants of us. Uh afterwards, there's an after party at a local bar. Um, and uh we go to the after party, I'm bellied up to the bar, and I'm getting drinks for um for the folks. And this gentleman's next to me, I bump into him accidentally and say, Hey, I'm sorry. He's dressed to the nines. I tell him, Man, those threads are sweet, dude. You're looking good. He's like, turns around, he's got this full, thick mock of hair, and I said, But I hate you. And he looks at me funnily. I said, No, I hate you because you have more hair than I do. You got a better beard, you're sh better dressed. And we start joking. And my son calls me Dylan, and I talk to Dylan real quickly, and I hang up the phone and I turn to him, You got any kids? And he's like, Yeah, I got two. He's like, Well, I've got three kids. And I said, Oh, I said, Well, never underestimate the power of your child calling you. My 27-year-old just just pinged me, and uh, you know, it was just the greatest thing just to hear him say, I love you, Dad, blah, blah, blah. And he proceeds to tell me that, um, in a very caring way, that he had just recently, three months ago, lost his eight-month-year-old son.

unknown 18:15

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 18:17

And I looked at him and I didn't I didn't offer advice because you just can't in that moment. There's a number of different stories behind all that, and you just what do you say? And I I've I have a number of friends who have lost their children, sadly, um, over the course of the last year. It's terrible. But I just look at him and um I say, Wow. He says, Yep. He says, but the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. I just remember that the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. And I looked at him and I said, There's nothing I can say, so can I just can I just hold you? Can I just give you a hug? Now, mind you, this is a stranger in a bar in the middle of a packed bar, while I'm in line ordering drinks, and that man and I held each other for probably a good minute and a half. And that continued uh throughout a conversation which lasted about 15 minutes. Um in that moment, this man showed up for me and I showed up for him. That's charity, quote unquote, right? It's not charity by the function, but it's giving. And I will carry that moment for the rest of my life. And so when we talk about uh the idea of giving, when we talk about the idea of the complexity of giving, um, yes, in its simplest form, that to me is what giving is about. It's the human exchange of need in the moment, but then sometimes it's just as transactional as giving money. Um and that to me is the di the perspective I have. There's that deep giving that you do, Mark, that we all do in our own way. That in its own form is giving. And there's no complexity there. You just love on a person or care about a person or another human being or another pet, and you do something kind for them, which has no price tag. It doesn't get a tax credit at the end of the year. But then there's other things where you actually do and support causes that that are meaningful to you.

Expectations That Stop Generosity

SPEAKER_03 20:16

And and so do we give based on need or connection? Isn't that a question that we're asking here? That's one of the questions.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

I mean, I think I I think people give for both reasons. You give for need, sometimes you give for connection, sometimes you give for sometimes you give transactionally. You do. Not none of them are are bad.

SPEAKER_03 20:41

What stops people from giving, Phil? I mean, you've seen the experience at both large philanthropic levels, and then you've also seen it in small, like what have you seen that stop like what can what complexity gets in the way or what uh confusion, whatever it is, gets in the way that stops the giving that you've experienced?

SPEAKER_00 21:06

So I'll like to refine that question. Do you mean like if somebody's been giving to an organization or a cause for years and then suddenly they stop? Yes, and or do you mean what prevents somebody just from making the first gift? I have no idea. I mean, I I don't know why somebody, if they're asked, there are many, many reasons why somebody wouldn't give to something or or even why they stop. I mean, financial reasons, their interests have changed, they've feel like they've done their part for a particular organization. I mean, there are a million reasons why. I'm gonna hone in on maybe a particular aspect of this, um, which is um what I have seen over the I've seen a couple of things over the course of my lifetime when it comes to people giving Even just individually to organizations or individ to individual people or to organizations. And one of them is they have an expectation that the person or the organization is going to then act in a particular way. So we all have our own sets of values and how we think people should be. And we all come to giving with our own set of, well, if I give to you then. And therein lies the problem. Because then I think you have to check yourself and say, why are you giving? And what are your expectations of the gift? I have changed that over the course of my time when I give, because I cannot know somebody else's life. It is true until you have walked in somebody else's shoes. And none of us have the capability to do that. We have not done that. And yet a lot of times, many times, when you think about philanthropy or charity, there's an there is an outsized expectation of what is possible. And I can say that to the Yeah, go ahead, Mark.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

Oh no, no, no, please finish your follow-up.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

I was just going to say I can say that to the two of you because I reflect back on our first shows that we did together and the challenges and just horrors in some way of our childhood. And nobody could know that or put on any of us their their projected outcome for who we should be, when we should be it, and what it would take for that to happen. There are a lot of ups and downs in all of our lives that brought us brought us along, if not for the grace of God, I might add.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Thank you for that. I think that's a beautiful

Trust And Where The Money Goes

SPEAKER_01 23:52

answer. I I I think my perspective on that, Al, is from a person who's never been involved like you and Phyllis have, and seeing the back end of an organized nonprofit fundraising organization, um, I've always struggled because I don't understand what happens with the gift. Right. Um, you know, there's mom died of cancer, there's American Cancer Society, Dad died of a heart attack, there's American Heart Association, there's, you know, uh we went to that event together for for MS. Um, Al, you know, there's there's so many uh housing and and and disease and and and so many areas that you can support people. But I I guess I'm just I'm gonna use the word ignorant in the sense of I if I'm helping an individual person, I can see it, right? But when I just have the transactional piece and write write a check and and say, well, I'm just gonna entrust that this money is going to go to the good. I I don't understand it. And um, and I think that's where the complexity comes into into my life because it it it it brings up fear uh that you know I'm I'm I'm not giving enough that would actually make much of a difference. Um two, I I don't really understand what happens with it or where it goes. And so I just overthink the whole the whole thing. Um and so it just prevents me from doing something because I've overthought the whole the whole damn thing.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Yeah. Mark, that's such a great point. And I'm glad you brought that up because I want to make sure like for our listeners we're offering some suggestions. And if somebody were, even you, if you were to say that to me and you just did, or if a listener was going to say that, then I would really encourage listeners to pick up the phone if if they're in like if you're inclined, right? If you're really curious about an organization or what happens, or if you're like on the edge of, I want to make a gift to I'll just use the Cancer Society, but I really don't understand, pick up the phone and give them a call. I can assure you all organizations, I'm not even going to put a disclaimer on that, would be happy to talk about that because in many ways they depend on, I just had this conversation with somebody, they depend on external people who are not close to it to hold up the mirror to what it is that they can't see. And I just had this conversation with somebody today. We've been working with a person. Her questions have I have totally restructured some of the information that I hand out or share when I'm talking with somebody, totally changed it. And that wouldn't have happened if she hadn't had the courage to ask so many questions, really, really, really, really good questions. I'll also share this because there's a reality here. Why don't people give, I mean, Mark, it's something that you just said, Al, and you asked me the question. I mean, the world now knows that my mother died of ALS. I gave to the Muscular Dystrophy Association, which ALS is part of, for years, and I stopped giving. And I stopped giving because my mother has been dead for over 40 years. And there haven't been enough advances, in my opinion, um, in research. I don't even know if it's research. Nothing is different for people with ALS. Very, very little is different. And I got mad and I got frustrated and I could no longer see myself or my story in how the muscular dystrophy association was marketing itself and communicating. And I stopped. I just stopped. Now, if there was a family who was like had a somebody in who had ALS and they needed help because I know how devastating financially that can be, or there was a way to help them, a thousand million percent I would do it. And my point is it's all okay, right? It's all okay. People need help. And hopefully, I mean, Al, the statistic you gave, right? The majority of it is coming, the majority of philanthropic help charity is coming from people. Not to negate foundations or any other thing.

SPEAKER_03 28:01

So, gosh, so much there. So let me first address the the fresh point you just brought up, and then I want to go back to some knowledge, Mark, that would maybe help you and help folks that are in the stall with us. Um also there's giving, you know, there's an expression in relationships. You know, uh relationships have seasons, and then you have seasons in your life, right? Um the same thing exists for philanthropy, community engagement. You have seasons where things are a higher priority. Um I can remember being very involved in youth sports uh nonprofits uh when I was coaching because it was just relevant. It was very, very, very close. There's been other organizations that I've spent a short period of time, but the ones that I've d dedicated a lot of time to, years, decades, um sometimes they just kind of reach a point where it's like, hey, I've done everything I think I can do. I don't have unlimited financial resources, I don't have unlimited time resources. Where is my passion guiding me now? And um part of that, now going back to what you asked, Mark, is nonprofits for the longest time, and I don't want to make this only a nonprofit, but nonprofit organizations for many, many, many years struggled with the story of where the money went. Uh, some of that was because of legal challenges that were brought up to bad actors in the nonprofit space. Um, others were just, you know, just the way that they operated, right? They're much better traditionally now. Um part of that is legal, part of it is just operational maturity. Uh and now you can give in different ways. You can have dollars marked for certain ways that you want to give, um, you know, to resources, to people, to services, so on and so forth. Um but but on the other side of it, there's also so much information out there that you can now research the organizations. But at the end of the day, Phyllis's point was was right. There is a dual responsibility, I believe, between the donor, giver, and the organization. And that is to ask, what is it you most desire? What is it that is most important to you? Because if I'm going to talk to Mark and I'm in the development world, the fact that you have a resource is what's important to me. But I need to understand, and one understand what's the passion behind that resource. Is it dollars? Is it time? Is it energy? That's what reduces some of that complexity. Because when you understand what somebody's passionate about or what somebody's connected to, or what somebody's transacting, all right, then I can be a better steward of your dollars, and you can be a better donor, if you will. Um, and that that speaks back to this idea. I I used to go to events and Phyllis, we've been there, we've talked about this, we've seen it. Mark, you've seen it. And that is there's the auction, and there's always those one or two people that are just daddy and and and sister and mama war bucks that just flow in cash out left and right. And I remember there's conversations like, oh, he or she's just doing that to show off, or uh, oh, they're they're they're the big money, and you know, blah, blah, blah. And there was actually judgment. And I'll admit, I used to be one of those people who's like, man, why are they really doing it? And then I just realized, and Phyllis, you brought this point home. Who cares? Who cares? That that's their why. That's their story to to carry into whatever that organization is. And if if if it's pride that's driving them, but they're using that because and it's doing good, then that's a beautiful thing. And and I don't have any I don't have any right to judge that. Um and so I love what you you brought up, Phyllis, is like what is the expectation? Um what are they seeking from this experience? Um, because those hidden those hidden expectations not only can be a roadblock, but also prevent somebody from being engaged.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

I I'd I'd love to go back to something that hit me, um, Phyllis, that you had said about research. And so just real quickly, while we're on this, I just I I've wanted I've went back and I just I just wanted to know what donations to ALS have done over the last 40 years. Um discovery of the genetic causes of ALS, new treatments in '95, 2017, 2023, um, 500 research projects that are currently in in the go uh and happening right now, more public awareness. So interesting. Um, you know, just just asking for more information has has made me think about that. So that simplified something just during this show for me. So I just wanted to say I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Yeah, no, absolutely.

Ask Better Questions Without Control

SPEAKER_00 33:05

The other thing I just I want to point out that's kind of bubbling up for me as we're talking, as we're talking about this, um, and I think it's new for most people um when you're talking about individuals. And we always think we know what's best for somebody else. I alluded to it a little bit a little bit earlier. But I think too, for our listeners who are thinking about getting engaged, I don't care where, you know, after school, you know, uh whatever, however you're thinking about getting engaged, to just please take a minute to ask questions. If you're sitting in a room working with seniors, ask questions. If you're thinking about um helping somebody who needs house repairs or a car repair, ask questions. Uh-huh. Not to be not to not so you change your mind, but so you un better understand what to do, what the person wants and what the person needs. And that may be drastically different than what you think, and it doesn't make it wrong. I always say when people tell you what they need, believe them. It may not make sense to you, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't believe them. It might not align with your system, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't believe them.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Totally. Well, you know, I had a I had a manager many, many, many, many years ago who um maybe he stole it partially from the you know movie Glen Gary Glenn Ross, where it's ABC instead of always be closing, he uh changed it to always be curious. Um and and he had, you know, ABC's easy, but you know, he had genuinely in front of curious, always be genuinely curious. And I I think that that's an important piece to what you're saying is ask questions, but but out of cure you know, genuine curiosity of wanting to learn more. Yeah. Not to have an answer at the end of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:10

Phil, in in and this goes to I think it's tied to on the heels of what you just said. Um I know that over the years, in my conversations with giving, um, with large philanthropic philanthropic dollars, um, I've seen a correlation between the quantity of money given and the sense of control and entitlement to decide what happens to that money. Said another way, because I made that really complex, the more money you give, the more expectation of control that person or group or organization is gonna have. And so when I think about complexity, it seems to be sometimes that the the smaller the dollar, it's like it's not, it's pretty easy. I just give 50 bucks here. Just the other day, my my buddy Eric Henderson was riding in Bike MS. I forgot that he was riding, I saw it come up on his feed, boom. I and I knocked out 50 bucks to to the MS Society. It was easy, right? Um if you give money, advice or support or an opportunity, do you have the right to tell the person what to do with it? That's my question.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Do you have the right to tell them what to do with it? No. Um I I think you're offering it freely, right? Whether it's fifty bucks or fifty thousand bucks or whatever the case may be. Um back to Phyllis's uh uh thought around trust and believability. I think you have to if someone's come to you for advice and you freely gave it to them, uh if they want to use that advice, great. And if they don't, well that's that's fine too. Maybe you make the decision if they don't follow your advice, not to give it to them anymore. But that doesn't mean that you can demand that they follow it.

SPEAKER_03 37:09

What about money then? Um I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna donate a million dollars to this charity. Should I have the right to say this is where I want it? Do this.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

I was gonna s I was gonna say I think you can if you want to restrict it to a certain thing, sure. But I think there's a I think where you're heading, Al, is there's a difference between um having the right to s to say what is right or wrong about the usage of that money and expecting some kind of outcomes. And those conversations should happen well ahead of a gift. It's no and and maybe it doesn't really matter uh the gift size, but I think there's a difference between what you think and what is possible because of that gift. And I think it's perfectly okay to want at the end of every year some kind of something. Hey, what was different because I did that? What's different in your organization this year than last year because of something? And some of that has to be, some of that I f I really do believe that we all have to be okay with this is what we learned because we thought this and then we learned that. And so next year, this is what is going to happen. But but but it it just it just depends. It's all relational, and I shouldn't say all. A lot of it is relational. Um, and in this hypothetical where there's a million dollars coming down on the table, I would hope that whoever is doing a million dollars, somebody might say, I don't care. Don't worry about it. I trust you do what you're gonna do. Great. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_03 38:54

And with that, we will temporarily hit the uh pause button, step into the stall to bathe in the glory of something we haven't done in quite some time.

The Roll Up: Hard Giving Choices

SPEAKER_03 39:10

The roll-up. That's right. This is where we throw down, get down, and roll down the real questions. Now, typically we would ask some stupid questions that were unrelated maybe to anything relative to like they're not stupid, there's no stupid questions, right? Uh, but here, uh, well, uh no more repose. Let's just get to it. If you had $10,000 to give away, would you rather change one person's life or make a small difference in a hundred lives? $10,000 to give away, would you rather change one person's life or make a small difference in a hundred lives? For those of you doing the math, that's a hundred uh with a thousand dollars. I mean, no. Uh a hundred with a hundred dollars.

SPEAKER_01 40:03

Gosh, that's a really good question.

SPEAKER_03 40:05

Um I can't take credit for it. That's a Phyllis Martin question.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

I guess asked all the time. It's a hard question. It's hard.

SPEAKER_01 40:12

I I I think because it's ten thousand dollars, um, you know, if it was a uh you know, a thousand uh uh I'm gonna say I would change I would one person. Why? Um because of the the the the ripple effect that that could come from that. I I think if if we're it's a hundred lives and ten thousand, what is that? A thousand that's what a hundred people.

SPEAKER_03 40:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

Yeah. I think I think for uh I don't know that I could make a meaningful difference with a hundred bucks. I guess it depends on the audience that you're giving the hundred bucks to, but I I think for me, for ten thousand dollars, if I had ten thousand dollars to give right right now, I would I would give it to one one person in need.

SPEAKER_03 40:58

Phil, you get to go last since it was your question that you posed. I I agree with Mark. Um there's a there's a lot of different ways that I could easily touch 100 lives in other ways, I think. Um not that I couldn't touch one life, but ten thousand dollars is a lot of money. I would probably do one if I had 10,000 bucks to give away. I would I would do one. Um because I'm also conscious of the fact that I typically don't have the financial resources to do that. And so that would also feel different to me selfishly. Whereas touching 100 lives, I I could do that, and I I do that regularly with a smile with a $10 here. The other night, I literally just bought a couple's um dinner randomly at Chick-fil-A, not a big devil dinner. Just a couple with some kids, and I don't know, maybe they weren't struggling, maybe they were, but I did that. So anyway, Phil.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

I mean, just to be different, I'll spread it across. No, don't be different. No, you don't have to do that.

SPEAKER_03 42:03

We don't we don't do different just to be different. What do you what would you do?

SPEAKER_00 42:06

Well, I'm it's hard, and it always depends on the situation, and I can see merit in $100 is very meaningful depending on the situation. You're overthinking it. You're gonna be able to do that. I'm likely yeah. It's true. It's hard. I don't know. It depends on it really depends on the situation. No, it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

No, no, no. No. No. We yeah, I cry bullshit. It's hard. I cry bullshit. You're not that that's crap. So you get you get like us, you've had time to think about it. Someone hands you ten thousand dollars, you have five seconds to make a decision, go. A hundred.

SPEAKER_00 42:43

That's how I'm feeling today. A hundred.

SPEAKER_01 42:45

Okay. Okay. That that you even put in. That's how I feel. Yeah, it's fine.

SPEAKER_03 42:49

I still love you, Phil. All right.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

It because it depends on how I'm feeling. We established that up front.

SPEAKER_03 42:55

All right, here's my okay. Here's here's the next question. Here we go. The last question in the stall, maybe. I don't know, we'll see. Um,

Advice For A New Millionaire

SPEAKER_03 43:03

you are talking to a newly minted millionaire who happens to be your child, or a very, very, very close loved one or friend. They have come to you and they say the following question: What's the one word of advice you would give me as I make a decision about how to do good with this money, how to give this money and help others? Whatever that money is, it's gonna be. They're they're they're they're wealthy. So they're gonna start their philanthropic journey, and they're gonna start, more importantly, a journey of giving, keeping in mind it could be money, it could be time, it could be resources. But they're now very wealthy. So, what's the one piece of advice that you're gonna give them as a loved one to help them start their quote unquote giving journey?

SPEAKER_01 43:58

I don't know if it's advice. advice it's more my routing number bank ID.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

There we go. That was good.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

Because if it's my kid, if it's one of my kids, yeah. This is the this is the this is the bank.

SPEAKER_00 44:12

Here's how you give back.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

Here's how you give back and and give generously and often give off and yes give off and give generously.

SPEAKER_03 44:20

That is bad. That could be a mic drop and and we just end the show and piss everybody off just with that.

SPEAKER_01 44:26

No no no I I I I think my piece of advice is um for for me, especially in the beginning of of of giving and and you guys really brought it home for me in the beginning of the show that's the only reason I'm able to answer this is it needs to be from the heart. And um that's good. You know make it make it make it meaningful uh because you'll want to do more of it. I I yeah that you guys really helped me in the beginning of the show with that so I I would say do it from the heart.

SPEAKER_03 45:01

Awesome I'll go next and then Phil you can wrap up the stall before we get back into the show or the the other part of the show. My advice would be look within ask a lot of questions about what most matters um and then when you find out what most matters that you care about ask a lot of questions of the people andor organizations so that you are they are in alignment. Once people find out you are a person of means, the door knocks begin in a variety of different ways. We've heard all the nightmare stories for lottery winners and things like that. And so you'll get asked a lot of questions and I think all giving starts from a place should be start from a place of knowing what matters most so that you can make informed decisions. I would love to be wealthy enough to be in a point where I can just go ahead and drop 10K because I was I was at a charity event and I'd love to do that. That would be great. That would be awesome but from the intentionality of making a difference in people's lives to to your points you have to ask yourself what most matters so that you can make informed decisions and then and then ask that of the organizations. That would be my decision.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

That would be my advice Philip so so yes I would say a couple of things. One think about think about what kind of um capital you want to invest. How much of it do you want to be your uh social capital, your moral capital, intellectual capital, and financial capital? You have to start thinking about it a little bit differently as you it if depending on what kind of good you want to do. And then the second thing I would say is you have to also take some time and think about um is it outright charity? I want to make sure people have food to eat hard stop no questions asked or do you want something else to happen? Do you want more to happen? So do you want I mean the the the the saying is do you want to teach a man to fish? Do you want that? Do you want to invest in things like that? Or do you want to invest in something that's beyond that which is I understand now that there's a whole system that surrounds this issue and I need that to change and how can I use my philanthropy to change that system so it impacts people differently all of those are are part of the whole ecosystem. All of those are important not everybody wants to do all of it but if you're going to be if I had that kind of money I would be asking myself those kinds of questions so that I was doing what was in my heart, what I really wanted to accomplish and that I was helping in a way that was most meaningful. And I'd be asking a ton of questions and meeting all kinds of people, right? So I could hear from from people whose we say we do this all the time. We say we want to impact lives, right? We say we want to do better and then spend no time learning about learning with the people that we want to that we want to help.

SPEAKER_03 48:32

I think you just identified one of the reasons that giving is complex people don't want to do the work yeah that that's they don't want to do the work it's just easier to just give and to say all right I put it out the door um and and I would say to that point if you do that then at that point you don't get to say well I I want the money to go here if you're not going to put in the work then that's okay but that kind of that kind of loosens the grip on what saying well I want well why'd that money go there or what did it go over there or I didn't you know it's like well you gotta kinda you know there's the there's the transaction there's the action and then there's the investment and if you're gonna invest then you you should you should ask those questions. That's that's good stuff. All right I we could probably do two hours on the show and what we what we should do uh what would be really cool is to find somebody out there in the world that's that's kind of struggled with maybe this that was maybe is has given and but anyway we'll for another show. All

Making Giving Simpler With Grace

SPEAKER_03 49:43

right let's just bring this home mark I'd love to start with you you said something so powerful in the very beginning which was also like a bummer but but understood and that was I feel guilty.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

I feel like I've haven't been enough I feel like I'm you know I'm not engaged with this and you know I'm not with a nonprofit and there's that stress around oh I haven't you know done enough whatever once we once we lifted you up here's my here's my question for you and and we can each ask each other a question that's fine but my question for you guys is like especially you mark like in this short period of time if anything what have you learned um about why giving is complex and how would you make life simpler for somebody else different from hey what we just did like what have you learned and and how would you make it s more simple and less complex for somebody else I think the thing that I I've I've learned is that there's so many places um that you and and what's been complex is there's so many places that you can give so many people that need help uh on an individual basis it's the it's unfortunately the person who's hungry at the street corner over you know uh to uh to to the people who don't have clothes who who people don't have shelter at night to you know people dealing with cancer heart disease or litany of other other issues and so I think the thing that I've learned is that um I can't help everybody um and I've I think what I've learned in this show quite honestly is that I need to be two things one very thoughtful and and wanting to engage with um some some different nonprofits that I have an interest in and and ask questions even if I never give to them just to learn more and I I think that that's something that I've learned um just just in the short 51 minutes that we've been hanging out.

SPEAKER_03 51:56

And any advice to make it less complex for somebody else I probably just don't overthink it.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

I just be curious uh you know ask questions um be willing to think that you don't do enough uh I I I I think what you've enlightened you both have enlightened for me today is that giving isn't just associating with a nonprofit and and um and I think the advice is take stock of the things that you're doing that's great.

SPEAKER_03 52:30

Yeah so thank you both you're welcome Mark I don't know that you've closed the show in a while with a mic drop we've had some recent mic drops that I've given that Phil's given so we're gonna save you for last you get to ask your question last. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 52:44

Phil, what question do you have or what thought do you have to bring this home I don't know I mean I think the one thing that stands out to me I think really going back to what you had asked um Mark, especially after you said, okay, well Phil here's what's happened with the ALS foundation or right since you know since 1995. I think you said like some some things in there. As hard as is as it is for me to say it, say it, one of the things that I really I think has happened to me is I have just lost hope that anything will ever happen. And so I'm connecting that you asked why I stopped giving and I don't really think the reason I understood the reason I stopped giving is because I actually have lost hope that in my lifetime something will be different around ALS even though there's been all of this amazing research I, you know I I I guess um it just seems to me um that's just how I feel. So you asked right and it wasn't until Mark you you know you said those things, which I'm sure I knew a little bit in the back of my head it's not like the money was going to dust or something like that. But not enough right like not enough over time. And I'm so glad there are people who do have hope still um for that particular issue.

SPEAKER_03 54:04

You know that is just something so powerful Phil and I I think we need to understand the balance of giving ourselves grace. I despite not having a direct connection like physically to MS, uh, it is what I have spent ironically probably the most time with in depth with with folks there's so many reasons for people to just say I give up and there's so much hope and there's so much light and there's so many stories about not giving up. And I think that's one of the reasons it's so important to find your community right to find your community for the things that matter to you so that when you are waning on hope that hope can be recharged. And maybe that doesn't mean you give but maybe it means you reconnect which in is in is in its own act own way an act of giving just by simply reconnecting. Wow thank you for sharing that all right I asked my question Phil just go ahead and liquefied our brains with more beauty of her soul which by the way that is a hell of a beautiful soul within the one they call Phyllis Martin thank you. I thank you if you knew I hope you listening know the souls of the of of the three of us but also just just what's behind all of these things. This is this show is anything but transactional obviously that's why you're still listening um but anyway I I was about to go ahead and shower love but we don't need to anymore. Go

The Value Of One Life

SPEAKER_03 55:41

ahead go ahead Mark Mark over to you I can ask a question or I can have some but I can share something that's uh front and center and you you both can I don't know if there's an answer to it um but I have a written question but I I I think I want to ask this what is the value of one life impacted by your generosity I feel like I have been able somewhere along the line to help one person then I have carried my grain of sand You asking that question is part of the course correction that I've been trying to make in my life to realize that it's enough so first I want to say thank you there's probably a cry coming here I'm gonna try to hold it off Lord really I just doubt I just said your heart doused us and now you're just putting flames on that you you mean easy icely lady um I'm trying to realize that the quantity is not the answer and and I'm I'm beginning to get it and and so the value is when I when I stood next to that gentleman at the bar and in that moment was was what he apparently needed that's enough and I and I need to remember to to own that to live with that and to appreciate it and to carry it with me and so the value of one life changed is enough it doesn't need more it doesn't need multiplicity that is enough and that's why this is the complexity of toilet paper.

SPEAKER_05 58:11

Did you say toilet paper?

SPEAKER_04 58:12

Everything complicated one big medieval master I'm overthinking