Episode 11: Bringing CPRT to the Classroom

In this episode, we’re joined by Janice Chan, lecturer in the Department of Special Education at San Diego State University and long-time trainer in Classroom Pivotal Response Teaching (CPRT). Janice shares her two-decade journey through autism research, classroom teaching, and implementation coaching—and how her lived experience as a special education teacher shapes her approach to scaling NDBIs in school systems. Janice’s background spans research and practice, beginning with early work in Dr. Laura Schreibman’s UCSD lab comparing PECS and PRT, and evolving into deep engagement with CPRT and the translation of NDBIs into real-world classrooms. Janice shares that the CPRT online learning module will be released to the public for free following the completion of the current research phase. Current study sites include California, Illinois, and Indiana.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Hey everybody, welcome back. I am so excited to have with us today Janice Chan, who is joining us from sunny San Diego State University. Is gonna talk to us about the amazing work that she's doing with Classroom PRT. But before we get into that, I want Janice to introduce you herself to you all so you can get to know her a little bit better and get to understand the journey that she's been on with regards to NDBI. So hi Janice.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Hi, so good to see you.

SPEAKER_02 0:37

Thank you. Yeah, so do you want me to get started? Just let us know. Who are you? What have you been doing? How did you get into NDBIs?

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Sure. Yeah. So I currently my position is at San Diego State as a lecturer in the special education department. So we mostly have teaching credential students. We also have a verified course sequence for the BCBA. So a master's in autism that kind of embeds the coursework for the BCBA. And so I teach a few classes in that as well. So yeah, my pathway to get here has kind of been through actually through research. So as an undergraduate student at uh UCSD, not San Diego State, but Dr. Laura Schryman had a lab. And when I was an undergrad, I was a research assistant in her lab. And at the time they were doing the comparative study between PECS and PRT. And so I was one of the research assistants that was there with a video camera back when we didn't have like, you know, iPads to film. And I would video record our sessions. We would go into the home. We would bring the kids in the home or into the lab and then also in the go into their homes and record sessions. And so I like didn't, you know, I didn't have an in-depth knowledge about any interventions in autism, let alone NDBI. But I was just there to kind of like clean the toys and um video record the sessions and then starting to like do a little bit of observational coding through the videos, um, which is very hard for NDBIs. We can talk about yep. Um so that's kind of how I got started. Um I um and then from that study, um, at the time, Dr. Jessica Sir Heinrich was working on her um dissertation study, and that was the beginnings of classroom PRT. Um, and so I um had expressed some interest in being a teacher generally, not necessarily special ed. And so she um she I was recording teacher sessions for her study um in classrooms where teachers were starting to use some PRT principles in the classroom. Um, and uh so I was recording those sessions, and then Jessica kind of worked it with some of the teacher participants to let me observe a little bit longer because I was interested in teaching as a career. And so from there I decided to go into special ed. I got my teaching credential in moderate severe special ed. And then um, and then so yeah, that's kind of how my pathway kind of got started is actually through research. So that's been kind of a steady um piece of my career throughout because that's how I got started and I was able to stay in touch with the research team when I was a teacher. Um, I randomly saw Jessica at a district meeting of special ed teachers, and she I said, What are you doing here? Do you remember me? I was one of your research assistants. Um she said, Oh yeah, I remember you. We're actually recruiting for a classroom pivotal response teaching study. Do you want to be a part of it? Um, and so I was like, sure. I would love to be able to use the principles in my classroom. So through that, um, I learned how to use CPRT actually in my own classroom as a special ed teacher. And then, of course, I had burnout being a special ed teacher. So I um contacted Jessica and I said, just do you know of any other job opportunities? And she said, actually, we just applied for this like multimillion dollar grant and looking for people who have both research experience and teaching experience to be a trainer for our CPRT project. Um, so she's like, we can bring you in. We don't know for sure we have funding yet, but we can bring you in and discuss and kind of interview you at this point, you know. But we we need confirmation that we we're gonna get funded. So that's kind of where I moved from the classroom into more of a research role. But I the role was interesting because it wasn't fully research, right? Like I'm not a PhD, I never got a doctorate degree, but they needed somebody who had that clinical experience and could have that rapport with teachers to say, like, I've done it before, I've struggled through this with you. Um, and I, you know, let me help you brainstorm and think through like how does implementation work in your context? So um, so that's kind of where you know, where I start where I went. And I, you know, every time there's been a CPRT study now, basically I'm one of the trainers. I love it. It's been really fun, like seeing the evolution of the research um in CPRT and just and how NDBIs have grown over the last 20 years or so.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

Yeah, it's been incredible. And what an amazing, well-rounded candidate you made for them, right? You have the teaching experience, you've been in boots in the trenches, you know what those teachers are experiencing. You have the research from the bottom down, like you said, cleaning the toys, like grunt stuff to really kind of understand the whole process as it comes out. And I was gonna share with the listeners how I met you over a decade ago when you were in Albania when I lived there, and you came out to do um a training. And so you have to share your little Albanian mug because it's a Albanian. And it was just so random. I happened to be living there because my husband's Albanian and I was writing up my PhD, working on an autism speaks grant with Deb Fine for some parent training. And it was just wonderful how you came in around the same time just to make PRT kind of worldwide. Just random stars aligning, small country. Like yeah, and that was I think a decade ago. Yeah. One of the resources that you have that I would love for you again to show and then talk about um where it's located now is the CPRT book, because that was incredible from what I remember, with data sheets and instructions. I believe there was a disc or a DVD in the back.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

If anybody has a DVD ROM anymore, there is one in there.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

I think I have two laptops that used to have that. None of the newer ones do. So I know I have it on my bookshelf. Can you talk about that book or kind of the direction that book has moved into with your current website?

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Yeah, so one of the things that came from what some of the original research studies in CPRT was that teachers wanted like a go-to resource, and they found it very um meaningful to have it be like a published manual instead of just like a randomly printed spiral bound, right? Um it brings legitimacy to the practice, I think. And so um Aben Stamer, Jessica Sir Heinrich, Sarah Reith, they're um big, they're kind of the founders alongside Laura Schreidman of CPRT, they worked to write this book and have it um reviewed by teachers that are in practice that were in practice at the time. Um, and so this contains all of the information about how uh what CPRT is, how to utilize it in the classroom context. Um, and while we have right now, like in my hand, I have a published book. It's unfortunately it's not in print anymore, um, but we have it just freely available for people. So our website um that we developed in one of our studies is classroomprt.org. And on on that website, there's like an additional tab, uh additional resources tab, and you can find a PDF available for free of this textbook. And all of the data sheets and all that that are in here, um, we have what I one of the data sheets I really like is CPRT in groups. So if you're implementing a group lesson, you're able to track multiple students and multiple goal areas and collect data for those for that kind of a setting. Um because we know in reality teachers can't teach one-on-one like they can in an in-home setting, right? Um so we wanted to, you know, they wanted to provide data sheets that made it possible to track student progress in a group setting. So that's all for free now on Classroom period.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

I will absolutely make that link available so everyone can go out and find it. And then when you were presenting at the NDBI Connections Conference, which was incredible, your presentation really dove into some of the current research you guys have and showed some pretty amazing technology that you are using to support classroom PRT. Is that something you want to chat about?

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Yeah, absolutely. We'd love to. Yeah, so um basically, like a short history of CPRT research. We um we did a randomized control trial. We found out CPRT was effective in increasing student school progress when teachers were using um CPRT with fidelity versus teachers who weren't using CPRT or hadn't yet been trained. Um so we know CPRT through that is an effective strategy to use. And so where we went from there was um increasing reach, right? Like right now, like the common method for training, and the reason why I know you, right, is because trainers can go travel and give a workshop, provide a little bit of coaching and um leave, right? And so that is not really a sustainable model, and it only reaches people who have the funds to be able to support um the that trainer to travel. It's an expensive method of professional development.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Right, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 11:37

And so just to um increase the reach of CPRT, um, we had been think uh trying to apply for grants to develop a distance learning module. And so we teamed up with the folks at UNC who wrote the Affirm modules. Um and they yes, also for free, and they helped us develop um a really great online training tool for us to train people to use CPRT. So there's a few primary elements in our distance learning module. One is a lot of reading. Um, basically, it's like what you would have heard me say in a workshop is all written now. There's video examples, there's little comprehension checks and things like that to keep you engaged in the learning process. Um, and then the second piece is a really cool um animated case study. Um it kind of introduces you to a student and a teacher, and you are supposed to be like selecting answers to uh compose a lesson plan and then implement the lesson plan with this case study student in this virtual environment. Um, what we learned in uh in developing this content was that teachers need a safe place to practice using new strategies. Um it's scary to implement something new when you're face to face with a student. And so it's best for you to be able to make the mistakes, initial mistakes, and you know, um get familiar with the practice through a safe online virtual environment. So that was a big um kind of philosophical shift for me as somebody who's training to be able to provide that for teachers through this virtual environment. It also tracks data for me. So as a trainer, I can go in and see um everybody's responses to these questions and how they correspond to the components of CPRT so that when I go to coach them, I can say, oh, this teacher had consistently incorrect answers about turn taking. And I so I probably as a coach need to focus on that a little bit more, but they understand how to provide choices. So I'm gonna praise them like crazy for that and just put that in the back burner for them. Like you're good at that, don't you don't need to be consciously thinking about that anymore. Um, so it's really nice that everything is in this automated format so that like they can get the information and have that safe space to practice while I can get information that informs my coaching of the teachers.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

Yeah, it it sounds so behavioral skills training to me. Tell them, show them, help them, and then feedback, especially the technology that you're using for the rehearsal, the practice phase. They get to that, like you said, in a very safe, controlled environment where they can sit and have some reflection, right? It's very different when you have a child moving around, a child and a classroom of children moving around. And I love the fact that it's data-driven, that you can really uh tailor it and customize to pinpoint. We need to spend a little bit more time focusing on practice rehearsal here, but this particular component skill set you're doing very well with, keep doing very well with it and get title. What an effective, efficient use of technology to have that platform do a lot of the bulk and to support um adult learning. And then you can come in as needed to kind of troubleshoot and do booster sessions, which to me sounds much more cost effective, right? Less of your personal individual time because they have got the stuff they need ahead of time, kind of laying that foundation.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

So yeah, and and the coaching stuff, like I'm so we're still providing coaching sessions, and that's all remote. So most of my teachers I'm working with right now are actually out of state. Um, and we're able to zoom with them and use like, you know, um HIPAA compliant um data sharing sources and everything to drop the videos so that I can review them and then meet with them for a debrief session where it's very reflective, it's very open-ended, and it, you know, we're able to then talk through implementation where the teacher felt like they did well, where the student was strong, and link those like child behavior with the teacher's behavior. Um, because that's what's reinforcing for teachers, right? Like we need teachers to feel reinforced because their students are gaining skills. Um, and then I, you know, I'm able to kind of help them plan through what are their next steps, how do you want to use this for our next coaching session? And what we know is that like the workshop and the didactic content is only gets you so far in terms of implementation, and you really need the coaching piece in order to really know how to use it in your context. So we feel strongly that that has to continue to be a part of any, you know, um, adoption of any new practices.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

Absolutely. And within all of this amazing system that you have, are there fidelity checks like the videos that they're uploading and then a fidelity score that you're coaching them towards and kind of refining as needed? Exactly. And research related or in general, that's the model.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Yeah, we well, we don't generally share the fidelity scores with our teachers because it can be a little bit um deprecating a little bit to to see a self, uh, to see a fidelity score, but it's more global, like you know, try to have more turns. This was an opportunity where you could have, and maybe next time if you run a similar lesson, could incorporate the turns or whatever. So um I'm never giving them a score, um, but I'm I'm inching them towards that. On my end, I know what their score looks like, but um, and hopefully we're seeing some some growth with that over the time, over the time of the study.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

I appreciate I know sometimes how hard it can be when I do ESDM training, right? It can just be feel not so great to not get a great score. And so that you know it's very helpful for us as trainers. It's very informative behind the scenes to then guide and coach them towards it's not about the number, it's about the skill that goes kind of along with that number to get us more proficient and help us generalize it a bit more. So it's important in some areas, but I absolutely agree with you. It's a number, right? And it means different things to different people. Different people receive it differently than other people. Um, so I think that's great that you guys have that uh quality assurance measure built in, but it's also shared in such a really informative yet sensitive way with the the trainer, the teachers that you are training in the classroom. Yeah. Do you have a list of states that you guys are in for your remote sites that are right now?

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Um, right now we are in California, um, Illinois, and um Indiana.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Oh, you kind of we need to get you in Iowa. You're right around. Send them over, Jamie. Send them over. I, I, Iowa's next. Yeah. Maybe Idaho. We'll just knock all the eyes out. I will. Don't think I won't do this, Janice. If people wanted to learn more about classroom PRT, you've shared the book. I'm gonna link the website with the incredible free PDF now. That's amazing. Any advice for where they could get started on deep diving? I guess maybe a question they might have do you need to understand PRT to get into CPRT? Or when you get into CPRT, does that really kind of give you that immersive PRT deep dive? I can think about it.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

That's a good question. So um our online module, once our research study is over, our plan is to make it freely available to the public. Incredible. We're not we're not aiming to make money off of this, you know. We just want it to be available and for the practice to be disseminated. Um, and so right now we're in a second year of our um research study. Uh, we're hopeful that after this year we'll reach our um recruitment goals and and be able to be completed with the study. And then um maybe for next year we would have it available. There's a few, you know, there's technical pieces that need to fall into place, and we need to find funding and stuff for the website, but um that's our hope. Um, so once that's done, I would say let that be your go-to resource for using CPRT. Um what was your other part of the question?

SPEAKER_02 20:57

Uh, one of the things that popped into my mind, um there correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there is both an AIM and an affirm module for PRT free available that people can maybe.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Yeah, there's we we were the authors for the affirm module on PRT. It's one of the like additional modules. So now they've kind of collapsed all naturalistic interventions into one module, and PRT specifically is still available, but you'll need to kind of click through a little bit more to find the additional modules. So that is still available, but it's not in such an obvious place. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

I will link that. And I think Lori Miss Mara was someone who did the AIME module. So I'll put a link to the AIM and the Affirm modules, what those acronyms stand for for our listeners, and to let them know these are great free modules that you kind of dig into. And I believe there are several PRT books as well. Um, Lynn, I'm trying to think some of the I know I have them on my shelf behind me. I'm trying to think of the main one. Is it purple? I'll link the links to the I'll put the links to the books too. I'm trying to think there was an updated manual, and then there was a main one that had come an oldie but a goodie that is still great to review. But I think the online resources are so great, especially the free ones. Like learn about it. Do you really like this? Are you interested in it? Then maybe buy a book. Then look into training about it. Yeah. Are you guys still actively recruiting participants in classrooms for year two of the study?

SPEAKER_00 22:34

For our particular like study where we're comparing distance and in-person learning, we're not currently recruiting, but I believe the UC Davis Mind Institute does have an active study going on for CPRT. And so typically the way that we have recruited CPRT participants is not through individual teachers, but through a school district or you know, some sort of larger organizations, just because we hope that there could be sustainment of some of the practices built into that organization rather than just these like loose teachers participating and learning how to use a practice.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Yeah. And I think it goes back to something you had mentioned earlier about like implementation science, right? We want to not just train and hope that they will continue with what we have shown them. We want them to really have this scaled up, that there is a system in place that it can then kind of just keep percolating, just keep going with everything, because the whole system is built to support this new model. So I really appreciate you sharing that. I think that's very inspiring for teachers who might be listening, who want to, oh my God, this is amazing. I want to put this in place to really guide them. It's not so much a classroom by classroom, it really should kind of come from the whole, the district or the head to make this system-wide kind of right difference. And you guys are when you publish this research, you'll have you know validated sites that they can maybe somebody in Iowa can talk to the person in Illinois who's right across the river to say how can we do that here from systems change? So I really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Yeah, it's really important for school-based services, especially, I think, because you you can't, there's so much turnover. And we saw that in Albania too. We see that now. Like a lot of the people I trained in Albania no longer work at that center. So now what, right? Now what happens to the practice? You're not like, you know, implementers are not rewarded for using the practice anymore, whereas they were when there was more, you know, um more collaboration surrounding it, more um, maybe admin is incentivizing the use of the practice. Um, so there's a lot of um, you know, factors that at play that are at the system level for using a practice. I that doesn't mean you can't use it if you're just a single teacher in Iowa who wants to um implement a new practice and this sounds good, right? Like you absolutely can. It's just gonna be a lot harder for you, and you're gonna have to put a lot more individualized effort and find like the intrinsic motivation to do it.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

Yeah. Almost like a grassroots kind of the teachers who's inspired, who creates it in her classroom, and maybe a couple other classrooms in the school, and then a couple other schools in the district. It's like a bottom-up versus top-down approach. And I agree, I think that would be a lot more cumbersome response effortful. But I'm sure there's a motivated, dedicated teacher out there who is a trailblazer to me. Right. But if there's another way that is more top-down, more efficient, less work, then that would be incredible to have that model as well.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Yeah. And even like finding time to go through the modules. Like teachers are great. They're like, generally speaking, it's a it's a population that really wants to keep learning, they're lifelong learners. And so they're willing to spend time outside of the classroom and on the weekend or during breaks, like learning more, right? But imagine if an admin could be like paying them for that or using the built-in PD time to let them engage in an online module, right? Um, so even working in things like that, we've found that that really helps facilitate the use of evidence-based practices, including CPRT, into classroom settings.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

I love that. And that really is supportive of them, but also could help produce burnout. Like they want to make a change, but everybody has bandwidth. And at some point we are short of it. And so setting that and empowering them to do that, like you said, within that existing system, ticks the boxes of they feel supported, it's covered on the time, and they're not having to carve out time that we know they already are carving out time to make materials, get things ready for the classroom. I've never been a classroom teacher, but I know so many, and I know how much work they put in at the end of the day and on the weekends to support their learners. Like you said, this is one extra layer which could make it incredible, but that is time. And time is uh, you know, it's a high value commodity. We are always time, I feel like. So I love that. Any advice that you would share to researchers or practitioners who are listening who are interested in NDBI, who might want to move the needle over towards learning more about this or putting it into practice?

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Um, I find honestly, like sometimes people think too hard about implementation. Like we overcomplicate it because we think we're le needing to learn something new and do something different. But actually, like you're probably using a lot of these practices already if you're a good teacher, especially if you've been had some training in behavior or behavioral practices. Um, so uh I would say my advice is like be natural. Like this is a naturalistic practice, like be natural, right? Um, we don't need to make it overly complicated. Um, especially I I think about like preschool, like on the early learner side, like just play, like just play. And yeah, and like it doesn't need to be like complicated and convoluted and like you know, let's just play with the child and incorporate goals and see see where it goes, right? Um, it's likely that just if you can let go a little bit um of what we feel like we have to do when we're using an ABA-based strategy, um, you will probably have a little bit more success in using a naturalistic intervention.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

Absolutely. And I find that so much for supporting child autonomy and facilitating choices and co-constructing and having the children be a part of this shared agenda versus an adult-driven agenda where I don't want to do that. You don't want to do my agenda, and then we see the dysregulation and what some people might call misbehavior, but it's not, right? They're clearly communicating to you, they aren't on the same page as you. So it's incredible to, like you said, lean into the child's choices, their motivation, follow the interest, and then be very strategic. I like to call it sneeching, sneaky teaching, very strategic about how you support the child's learning through that. And we can't do that if we don't let go of our agenda. So I'm fully on board with that.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

Hit it right on the head there. Do you have any recommendations or tips or just share with us how do you stay up to date on new things that come out in NDBI world?

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Yeah. Honestly, I mean, podcasts. Yeah. I I mean, I have long commutes to campus, um, and you know, driving to see observe student teachers and whatnot. And um, that makes it so that I don't have time to like read articles, um, sit down at my computer and read, and you know, very often. Um, but podcasts give me a really great opportunity to stay updated with the research, with what's going on in autism interventions more broadly, uh, or NDBIs more specifically. So I would say look for behavioral podcasts or teaching-based or autism-based podcasts. And um, that's a really great way to stay connected and you feel like you're using your time wisely, right? If I'm gonna be sitting in the car anyway, then I might as well be learning something.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

Yes, I love that. I think about when I'm driving around, most of the time I'm just skipping through commercials and ads to get from one channel to a next to a song that I might like. So, what a great use of your time to just 20 minutes, put this on, learn, listen, avoid the commercials, get to your destination, feeling inspired and enlightened, ready to have that change. So I love that. That's a great um, that's a great recommendation.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

Oh, this has been so incredible chatting with you. And I can't wait to share the links for the things that you have discussed with us today so people can kind of go out there and feed themselves and learn more about it. And I am so very excited to hear when that platform is ready, research is done, and readily available because I think a lot of people will be very interested in all of the hard work that you guys have been doing to support teachers and the students in the classrooms.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Yeah, we hope so. We hope we hope it's widely used and you know that it's helpful to people to learn more and make NDBIs more accessible to all students, right? It's not just teachers, ultimately, it's the students that receive the services and receive the interventions. So um we we want to see more kids um access uh naturalistic interventions.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

I agree, full hearted, and I think everyone listening to this will be agreeing as well. Thank you so much, Janice. This has been great.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Thank you. It's great chatting.