Episode 13 Embedded Instruction, Joyful Learning & the Evolution of ABA

In this episode, we’re joined by Dr. Ilene Schwartz, Professor Emeritus at the University of Washington and founding developer of the Project DATA model. With more than four decades of experience, Dr. Schwartz reflects on the evolution of Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA), the rise of Naturalistic Developmental Behavioral Interventions (NDBIs), and what it really means to support children with autism through compassionate, developmentally grounded practice. Dr. Schwartz shares stories from her early days at the May Institute and her graduate work at the University of Kansas, all the way through building inclusive NDBI programs at the University of Washington. She challenges outdated practices and offers a modern, deeply humanistic vision for behavior analysis today.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Hi, everybody. Good morning. Welcome back to another one of our NDBI vodcast episodes. And I am fangirling, beyond excited to have Dr. Eileen Schwartz with us from the University of Washington today. So I'm going to do no justice trying to introduce her because her accolades and her history is incredible. So I am going to let Eileen share with you a little bit about her experience, what she's been up to over the past X amount of years, and where she's at now and what she's doing. Hi, Eileen. Welcome.

SPEAKER_02 0:37

Hi, Jamie. It's great to be here. Thank you for the invitation. Well, it's wonderful to be able to talk about NDBI. You know, I've been doing behavior analysis for a very long time, since I would probably say since 1978 as an undergraduate student when I started working with Bob Cagle. And then I um left, graduated from UCSB and went to the May Institute where we um, which was at the time was a residential school for kids with autism, and really was I considered it my boot camp for ABA. Then I got my graduate degree at the University of Kansas, and then I've been at the University of Washington since 1991. And um I recently retired. So now I'm still doing a little bit of work, but um mainly um in uh doing a lot of reading, needlepointing, and taking my dog for walks. So um it's great to be here to um kind of talk about how I've seen NDBI and related and behavior analysis, because I think that you can't talk about NDBI without talking about behavior analysis um and see and talk a little bit about how that the field has changed.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

I really appreciate that. I started out in the late 90s, so I'm slower coming into the game, but I also have this kind of journey of ABA, really kind of morphing and evolving for myself and how I ended up with an NDBIs. So I appreciate you have a very similar journey of kind of ABA at the heart and the art, the science, and then kind of bringing it out into the bigger world or classroom setting. Amazing research and work that you have there. What motivated you? Was it just through the grad work being exposed to Bob Kegel in Kansas?

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Well, you know, I was actually, you know, I got into ABA in a really backdoor way, as you know, many people, especially back then, did. Um, when I was in high school, I my senior year of high school, I had an experience working in a um classroom for um, this was in 1976. So it was children who were identified as being childhood aphysics, something we don't talk about anymore. And I'm sure that now those children would have been identified as having autism. Um and I just fell in love with it. I said, this is what I want to do. And so I ended up working with Bob in college, and um and I just thought behavior analysis makes sense to me, um, the way you teach. And even in then, um, that was really the beginning of what um uh at the time were the precursor to PRT, which is they call natural language paradigm, which is this idea that we need to teach naturally and and but teach. And and the thing that's the thing about using a discrete trial. When I talk to people about a discrete trial, I just say it's a way to frame an instructional interaction. You ask, you give an instruction, you provide an opportunity for the child to respond, you prompt if necessary, you provide feedback, and then you have a brief interval between the consequence and um and the next inter and and the next uh instruction. And you can do that in all kinds of ways. You know, um I we were talking before we started filming that you know, we talk about in project data talking about decontextualized instruction versus embedded instruction. So if I'm sitting with a child and doing discrete trials on table, there's nothing wrong with that, but that's decontextualized. And we all know that when we learn things in a decontextualized way, that doesn't help us actually use the skill in a in a helpful way, you know, in a well so it does in a functional way. So, you know, if I'm trying to learn how to play golf and I go to a driving range, I may have an amazing golf swing at the driving range. But if I can't hit a ball at the golf course, then I can't play golf and or I'm not playing golf, you know. So um, in the same way, if I can, you know, lit, I can identify emotions by looking at pictures, but when my friend gets hurt, I don't know how to respond to that, um, then that child isn't real hasn't really closed down the program on emotions, you know. We have to be able to use the skill in a functional way to meet our communicative needs, you know, and and to me, the goal of communication and the goal of um behavior analysis really is to have a better quality of life. And, you know, sitting at a table conversing with an adult is not gonna lead you to that better quality of life. It may be necessary, but it's not sufficient. And so that's always the thing I want to make sure when I talk to people who are, you know, um just learning about NDBI is that um that they you have to understand the instructional piece of it because some kids maybe do may do great just learning in that context, but some children may really need more intense decontextualized instruction to learn certain skills. And we shouldn't be afraid to do that because I think that that's actually part of an NDBI.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Yeah, I really appreciate the distinction and thinking about those different terminology um phrases. So, again, that three-term contingency are ABCs of people I feel like sometimes equate DTT with at the table teaching. And I don't think that's an accurate portrayal of what we are trying to do with the science of ABA. Um they are viewing it that way. That is why maybe perhaps they shy away from ever coming to the table. Like at the table, it's best to do play-doh at the table, puzzle, right? There's certain things that load well naturally. Um, but I love the thought of decontextualized versus embedded. And before we turn the camera on, we were talking about the teaching environment versus the learning environment, like what you explained with the golf example. I'm not a golfer, but tracks with me. Yeah, kind of dropping somebody into the pool. I'm not a golfer either. I like to use a fishing example, and I'm not a fish, so it never kind of putting people in that environment before they have the skill, like uh dropping a kid in a pool. That's not the time to start teaching how to swim, right? We teach in a more supportive, controlled environment, minimizing perhaps distractions or safety, whatnot. And then we bring them into, like you said, this bigger context where there's distractions and the wind is blowing and the the rough or whatever in a gulf, right? There's noises and having to learn in that environment for a lot of our kiddos who have a hard time really kind of attending to sensory uh with sensory issues and with the difficulty kind of attending to social stimuli people, I think it can be really challenging. And even more so for our more complex, diverse learners. Does that track kind of what you see?

SPEAKER_02 7:45

Well, and even with typical learners, and and this is a real life example. I um I trained to do a triathlon and I was a mini triathlon, and um, and it was I was doing great. I had my swimming down, you know, the more than the distance I needed to do, but I swam only done swimming in a pool. And the triathlon used we were swimming in the lake. And so someone said, Well, have you done an open water swim yet? And I said, Oh no, I haven't done that. Don't worry, I'm not gonna worry about it because you know I can more than do the distance. And they said, You need to do an open water swim. And so I did an open water swim and I got out of the lake and I thought, I can't do this. And it was so different. And again, it was that same thing. I could swim in a pool, a decontextualized setting. Um, when I got in the lake, an embedded setting where you know there were distractions, there wasn't a line marker, I couldn't see the bottom, I was completely flipped out. And so I think that again, we forget, even with our more advanced learners, that sometimes you loot, you use a skill, you learn a skill, but can you use the skill in the setting in which you want to use it? So, you know, I can learn to, you know, like we used to do in old bad ABA, you know, we used to teach, you know, have a little um fake store, and we'd say, okay, we're gonna teach shopping skills by, you know, teaching the kids to pick out an empty box of wheat thins and bring it to this, you know, Fisher Price cash register and use fake money, you know, um, and say, oh, we're teaching shopping skills. Well, no, we're not teaching shopping skills because going to a supermarket is nothing like that. But we might do some crap work at home of picking out something from, you know, matching a shopping list to an item on a shelf, you know. But if you can do that, you can't say, yes, this child knows how to shop, you know, and and I think that we forget that sometimes, that there are skills we need to learn. And those skills are essential before we can we can demonstrate competence in a natural environment. And um, the more we can do that, um, I think the better the instruction can be.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

You have me thinking about mastery criteria, generalization criteria, but I feel like it's more than just saying I can swim in that environment generalized. It's all of the conditions that are in that environment kind of how do we program for that or how do we support that as needed? Like you said, um, no swim lines, different waves. So I'm really thinking now about when we talk about generalization of three consecutive sessions, two people, two locations, I feel like that seems to be the standard I keep hearing. Is it really generalized? If what are we looking for in terms of that skill? Like your example with the shopping um match to sample, kind of pick out something in a in a mock kind of prep setting. If that individual displays the same behavior in a different environment, would we say it's generalized, different stimuli, or is there something more because it is more complex in this environment?

SPEAKER_02 10:56

Yeah, I don't think it's just generalized. I mean, I think that there are some some skills that are generalized, you know. I mean, like, you know, taking something off a shelf and putting it into a cart, you know, that's generalized. But being able to do that in a whole different kind of setting. And then of course, you know, shopping's more complex because I don't know how you shop, but when I go to the supermarket, I don't buy things that are just on my list. And often I don't even have a list. So I'll just say, oh yeah, I know that, you know, I remembered at home I'd written down that we need uh soy sauce, but I had didn't have a list with me, but I remembered that, you know. So so it's a very, very complex skill that takes into all kinds of things that we don't always program in. But even if we just define shopping as getting the things that are on your list, um, you know, there's all kinds of issues. You know, I'm gonna go buy Triscuits. Well, there are now 10 flavors of Triscuits. You know, what kind am I buying? There's different sizes of Triscuits. Do I compare for which maybe this size is on sale and that size isn't on sale? Do I even care about that? You know, what do I do if they're out of Triskets? You know, so there's all kinds of issues that are that are more complex. Um, but I think that, you know, we can't, we have to start sometimes with the beginning skills and say, so what do we need to have to begin before we get into these other things? Doesn't mean that we can't use what we know about behavior analysis and NDBI to help us teach those more complex skills. But you know, again, you're not gonna start, you know, uh swimming, you know, you're not gonna say I'm gonna swim a mile if I can't swim up the length of a pool yet. You know, you have to start with small um steps that are achievable. Um, and I think one of the other things that's important about NDBI that, you know, it is the importance of using natural reinforcers. Um, so you know, they're reinforcers that are built into the task, built into the environment. And how do we make sure that children can access those and that they're there, you know. So if I'm you know doing something that I really don't like to do, what's the motivation for that? Um, you know, there's nothing wrong with using artificial kinds of motivation. I don't know about you, but I do that all the time in my work. You know, sometimes I'm doing a task that I really don't want to do, and I actually set a timer. You have to do this for an hour, and then you can go work in the garden or play with your dog. But um, but right now you need to sit down and write and work on this chapter. And um, you know, so there's nothing wrong with that. But if my whole life was that way, I think I'd be pretty unhappy. And so I think it's a matter of really looking at what behavioral strategies that we can use that we know we we know they're effective, and how do we use them in a compassionate manner? Um, you know, we uh just published an article uh at my colleague Ashley Penny is the co-author, is the first author. And it's about saying that um compassion is the eighth dimension in ABA. Um because you know, we've talked about compassion for a long time. Um, and I think that, you know, when I talk about ABA, I always talk about that behavior analysis is a, you know, is an inherently compassionate and optimistic approach to intervention because we don't say behavior analysts don't say you can't do that. We say, how can we help you achieve that goal? And it's a very different approach. And you know, we say, hey, we just need to break down the steps, you know, and sometimes you know, to ridiculous uh extremes, but but we can always say, how can we help you achieve that? And you know, it's a matter of teaching and it's an empirical issue. How do we get there? If this strategy isn't working, let's use a different strategy. Um, and I think that that's super important when we were working with neurodivergent learners, you know, that um we really need to say, I don't know exactly. If I knew, if I said, okay, this is how we teach every student with autism to use language in a functional way, um, boy, I would share that secret, you know, because you know, everyone would be happy. Um and uh, but we don't know that yet. And I think we have to be honest that we don't know that. We don't have an intervention that works for everybody. Um, but what we have is an approach that works um that most children um make meaningful progress towards important educational outcomes when we use it appropriately. Um, you know, but like any approach, it can be used inappropriately. Um, you know, people still make claims that they shouldn't make, they still prescribe amounts of intervention that they probably don't need. Um, but we really need to make sure that we stick to the heart and soul of behavior analysis and that we're working, we're using behavioral principle principles to work towards um socially important behaviors. Um and as behavior analysts, we can't identify those socially important behaviors because I don't know what's socially important for you and your children, your child, um, and you don't know what's socially important for me. Um, we can only we have to work in partnership with our consumers to help them so that they can tell us what those outcomes are.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Absolutely, 100%. And I I keep thinking, I was trying to rack my brain, listening to all your wisdom. There's some quote on my daily quote app that popped up, and it was something along the lines of motivation will only get you so far, right? And then you need that discipline, just like what you're talking about. Like I have my um my structure, I have my timer to get this writing done, discipline, and then I'm gonna go over and do my gardening and my knitting because you can't be motivated for everything all of the time, right? It adds and flows. And I think about that very much for the children that we support. They're not gonna be motivated for the same thing every day for the same quantity, and then you drop perhaps a response requirement, instruction, expectation on them. Some days they might go along, kind of follow through, and other days don't have the motivation for it and all of the complexities that come with that. Um, I think that's super important. Um, and I love, I can't wait to check out the article. Is it out? Yeah, I'll send you a copy. Yeah, look at um compassionate, um, always kind of presuming competence. Um, this approach can really help support. Like you said, we we want to help you do it. We believe you can do it, and we have the science and principles to get you there. However, again, probably depending on so many different things, but it is a very supportive, compassionate approach to helping children. So sometimes I kind of look at the back lash of A B. I sometimes wonder like where it comes from. Like, where are these other proponents that are really anti-A? What are they looking at? Because when I look at ABA companies, I feel like the mission statements, the vision on the websites, they're like ladders, support, guiding, nurturing. All of the names seem to be compassionate and helpful. The the manifestos, the the mission and the visions all seem to talk about wanting to help support individuals. So I'm always kind of taken aback by some of the real hardcore anti-ABA thinking, are you looking back back in our history? Like we've moved, I think, and evolved past that for the majority. What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Or have you seen that kind of oh yeah, yeah, I've seen it. Um unfortunately, I've seen it too much. I um I I don't know always where it comes from. I think sometimes it comes from the fact that people are looking at um old practices of ABA. I think that sometimes they're looking at um, there are some providers of ABA that are still engaged in those old practices and still, again, you know, um having children in clinics for way too long. You know, I mean, one of the things about ABA that's interesting to me is that um, you know, it we always, if you really look back at the roots of ABA and even the roots of the Lovos article that kind of started all of this kind of cottage industry of home-based services for children with autism, they were home-based because they were supposed to be done in natural environments. So the whole idea that we can do applied behavior analysis in a clinic is, you know, a little bit of an oxymoron. But I understand why. Because um it's because at first people were trying to do all those home-based services, um, do all of this home-based, but it's really hard on clinicians. Um, I mean, it's exhausting and, you know, it's really hard to supervise clinicians. So we had people, and in fact, we still do have people, you know, they have 40 hours of training so they can become an RBT, and then you're sending them out to work in a home with a child who has significant, may have really significant impairments. And that's not good. So I think that there are still we still um have some services that are not great. And I also think that um, you know, we have people who are making um accusations about things that they don't really never know what know about. And that's hard for me. So, you know, I've you know, I um I'm this these kind of statements get me in trouble, and you know, I'm retired, so that's okay. Um I really talk a lot about I I really value the lived experiences of people with autism, um, just like I value the lived experience of parents of children with autism. Um, but we have to value both of those. And um, we all I also want to acknowledge that um the um autistic self advocates that often are speaking up um are very high function, often very high functioning folks who have good communication skills and are not speaking for the entire spectrum of people with autism. That there are many people with autism who don't have that level of um communication. have comorbid intellectual and developmental disabilities. And so we have to make sure that people have the that the people of the whole along the whole stretch spectrum are represented in these conversations. And that those self-advocates have to either acknowledge that they're not speaking for those folks or start speaking for those folks. But you know I now have um become I think a little more radical in my approach to that. And I, you know, and I come I'm saying now that I am fundamentally and radically pro-choice and not just in terms of healthcare, but in terms of people's rights to make educational decisions for their children and families. So I don't think that um just like I don't this is probably well beyond what you want me to talk about. You know, just like I don't think that some that a um public official has a right to tell me what kind of healthcare choices I can make, I don't think that a um a self, an autistic self-advocate has a right to tell a parent that these are choices that you can or cannot make. It's fine for you to share your experience. And if you had a bad experience, I am very, very sorry for that. But I want to think about the hundreds of children that have gone through project data who've had good experiences. You know, those those some of those children that they're adults now are in college, have healthy relationships, are, you know, what the first time I you know when I started working with children with autism, we were working with children who had by today's standards very significant impairments related to their autism. And the first time you know one of one of our kids like went to high went to college I was like oh my God you know this is this is earth shattering for me you know um and it's so exciting. And those kids um I think would probably and I think their families would say that and some of them would say that probably wouldn't be there if they had not had really good behavior analysis in their lives. So I think we have to think about that. And and again that to bring it back to the topic um that behavior analysis included and incorporated many of the components that we now call NDBI. And you know really thinking about using naturalistic reinforcers teaching in in embedded settings following the child's lead um using manualized um instructional prop um procedures um so so I think that um it was a long answer to a a quet to your question. Yeah but it's it's you know it it's it's hard you know it's it's hard as a field and I think also um in general behavior analysts have not been very good at trying to address this issue. They just say you're wrong. And um and that's you know a great way to end a conversation you know rather than saying tell me your story and let me hear your experience because your experience is real you know your feelings are valid. And how can we make sure that if you if you believe you are harmed by this procedure how can we make sure that no one else experiences what you did but that think about for all the for what you're saying there are many, many people who are not speaking up and how do we make sure that those good experiences keep going?

SPEAKER_00 25:59

Yeah that they're amplified and that those individuals or the adults parents caregivers of them also have a voice or help share that voice for them. And I think about dosage and I think about NDBIs and you know child led. Sometimes I'll say child centered because if I say child led there are some BCBAs that will run out the door and I'm like no no I don't think you're understanding I'm not talking about child run. There's a very big difference between no boundaries, no limits, letting them do whatever versus child centered where I am working and scaffolding and co-constructing activities together and I'm following their motivation and I'm sharing that engagement with what they're attending to. So I think there's still some myth and misconceptions for people to really understand it. And I think about dosage and settings and as a parent of a neurodivergent child I truly deeply feel every child should have a childhood and the kettos that are coming into 40 hour a week clinical ish type settings that maybe get to play on a break away from some decontextualized learning. I just I really am struggling with that as a human to think about how that's developmentally appropriate, socially significant or compassionate for them. Not that they're doing harm per se, but just bigger picture of that child's life like NDBIs were gonna already kind of mimicking what I think children would be exposed to. And that's why they resonate so much for me as a professional and also on a personal level.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Yeah. Well you know my one of my colleagues my closest colleague on Project Data is Bonnie McBride and she's at the University of Oklahoma and we've worked together for a very long time and when we first started working together she said the her old boss used to say to her well you know think of special ed as six hours a day where you get to practice things you're really bad at. And it's like wow sign me up for that and you know and and we was so we want to make sure that every child um you know Jeffrey Canada said this every child experiences a moment of joy at school every day. And um and I believe that for um children with autism, you know, children with autism are children first. So they should also experience a moment of joy. But I also want to extend that to teachers that every teacher should experience a moment of joy at school every day. Because if you don't, you know what's motivating you to be there. So you know that's how we started Project Data is we started project data by we are working at an inclusive preschool program at the University of Washington, the experimental education unit. And at that time we had um uh 10 we had children who were in school for about 10 hours a week and we had children with and without um disabilities including some children with autism um in that class in those classrooms and you know they were making progress but then the Lovos study really started picking up you know this is a long time ago started really picking up you know people were catching onto that and saying 40 hours a week 40 hours a week and we were both saying because we both came from a background where we had worked in clinics that had been doing that and we said you know kids shouldn't be getting ABA 40 hours a week so we said how can we combine inclusive educational background and inclusive educational experience with high quality instruction and so that's how Project Data was you know developed is we said this inclusive having an opportunity in a high quality inclusive program is necessary but not sufficient. Because again, children with autism are children first. And I believe that all children should have an opportunity to be in a high quality inclusive program with and without disabilities because we know that there are really good outcomes now for children without disabilities who attend inclusive programs. And the programs were really high quality early childhood settings. So we know that's good for everyone. So so what we did is we said okay we're gonna add hours you know because those kids were there for 10 hours a week and so we kind of read the research and we decided okay we're gonna try to get to 25 hours a week and um that they were in program. And so we added some extra hours we added some home practice and so we got to that we we got to those 25 hours a week. And I think that when people say how many hours do you need and I say you need enough hours that you're making progress and um and when you're making progress and you probably you mean for progress then you probably have enough hours. But if you're only doing this and not doing other things then you probably have too many hours. So um but you know but that time in inclusive programming counted as part of their hours because that was that is instruction. So we have to talk about the fact that you know oh we just send children to inclusive programming for social. No no no that's part of your therapeutic hours how are you learning in those settings? How are we embedding instruction in those settings but again and you know I was just talking last night with a friend who does more um uh general education work and um yeah right yeah right another another oldie but goodie um but you know we um uh we and and she was we were talking about the importance of practice but it isn't just practicing it's practicing things that you know how to do you know so you know um again to go back to our golf our golf lesson um if I don't know how to do a golf swing and I'm practicing bad form then I'm never going to get better you know so I need someone to show me how to do the right golf swing and then I need to practice that you know so in the same way if I'm you know if I don't know how to request and what I do to request things is to have a tantrum, I could practice that, you know tantrums, but I'm not going to get very good at requesting in a socially appropriate way. But once I know how to request in a socially appropriate way then I need to practice that across settings, across people, across you know things I'm requesting for and I need to learn that sometimes people will say no to my request. You know, at first hopefully they're gonna say yes as until my requesting becomes fluent but at some point they're gonna say no you can't have ice cream now because we're gonna have dinner in an hour. You know and that's and then I need to learn how to deal with that as a as a learner you know or we're out of Triscids. I know that's your favorite cracker we're out of them today and we'll have to go to the store and get some more that happens and um you know so we have to teach children um you know the full range of consequences for their behavior um and and that's you know and that's all part of that um embedded instruction.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Yes I really I think of Triscots I would not be sad if I was out of those is like sticks and wicker. People love them. But I'm thinking about this amazing book that you can find online and I was checking the 2001 I thought it was 2003 um there is something in here that I remember reading below the desktop and it had to do with dosage the number of hours what do we consider to be therapeutic hours and it's not so much a frequency number it's more so about what you do with those hours and how they're used. And so for me that always kind of resonated because this book came out I started late 90s kind of came out right around when I was coming out so I'm like oh that's an oldie but a goodie but I also think about like what you're saying or I think about 40 hours like I could sit down and map out a 40 hour week for myself on my planner with my task knowing what I need to do. But I will sit down and look at 20 to 25 ABA goals and I will sit down and think about how does that fill 40 hours a week right so I'm thinking about the programming that's kind of coming into this 25 to 30 goals couple objectives X amount of times to practice it from a mathematical equation I can't see how that fills 40 hours. We don't have a goal to work on self-help skills right that would be part of that context play. I'm looking at these more kind of cognitive matching sorting kind of rote type of teaching and I'm just thinking I could fill 30 to 40 hours with a very comprehensive that incorporated parent support in a preschool inclusive environment some decontextual kind of one-on-one kind of structure that I can get on board with because that is more representative I think of what a dosage consideration would be but that is not kind of what I see tracking for some uh kiddos who are having 30, 40 hours a week of one-on-one in a room no social um I just can't think what are you doing with the time I can't make the math work in my mind.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

I I haven't you know I I I again I haven't gone there to try to do the math but I just don't think it's a humane thing to do you know like um it's not you know it it's I don't think it's developmentally appropriate that you know um children should not be working 40 hours a week you know they should be playing and they should be you know learn you know there's so many things we learn through play you know occupational therapists say that you know play is children's work and um you know we should we should acknowledge that that you know we need to make sure that children are learning how to play not just as a you know as a means you know because you learn you learn communication and negotiation and all these self you know all these self-management skills through play but also sometimes play too is an is a good end you know um you know how do you entertain yourselves how do you you know what are your recreational skills what are you doing um besides playing on an iPad um to keep yourself happy and motivated and is that doing puzzles is it drawing is it you know um is it doing mosaics you know so you know the the the um outcome parquetry you you know when we used to parquetry boards now we can say okay we're teaching them how to do mosaics is it building with Legos um you know which again is a really great as kids get older a really great way for social interaction is it is it learning how to code and um for kids that are really into that but but what is your recreational skill and you know it's hard to think of that when you're talking about little children because we call we call that play but um we want those children you know it's a quality of life issue you know what what does a high quality of life look like for a child and some of that is play. Now what we know for some children with autism is that left to their own devices um they may not engage in constructive behavior you know so that means that they may some of those children may need more hours more time in learning how to spend um less you know to spend that time in a more um meaningful way you know um you know just because I like to engage in self-STEM for many hours a day it's really not a great use of my time not to say I'm we need to eliminate self-stem because we know that self-STEM in some situations um you know it has some good outcomes for um really for all of us you know but but especially for people with autism um but you know to sit and do that for many hours or to find a more constructive way to engage in that self-soothing behavior. Maybe it's doing puzzles maybe it's you know maybe it's reading maybe it's looking at books but um maybe it's going for walks but um finding something that um is a more social replacement for some of those behaviors is important.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

Absolutely and I think leisure skills and recreational skills like you're talking about those are just good for everyone to have for self-care like I'm feeling a little overwhelmed. Let me sit down do one of my puzzles that calms me, relaxes me can refocus some things I feel like I did a product completed I feel like I accomplished something and now I'm going to get back into the dizzy craziness of life where sometimes I feel burnout at work or home or wherever, right? So we are really I think trying to support individuals to have these little buckets of skills and resources that they can go into and kind of fill as needed and take from as needed. But if we don't expose them or we don't show them or teach them then we don't have an opportunity for them to learn different novel ways to enjoy all of the wonderful things that we have in life that are available to us.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Right why do you think Wordle is so popular and why do you think that there's a an a something with Wordle where you can share it easily with others so you know I share my word score every day with my cousin and it's a fun little it's a fun little thing that we do to make sure that we're in touch every single day. And um again easy simple um a nice break you know from whatever task I'm supposed to be doing um but it's both um fun and social. And so what are we teaching our kids to do that can be fun and hopefully potentially social and um and that's an important outcome for children. And some children will meet need more direction in learning those skills. And I think this is a really important time where we follow kids' leads because hopefully kids will tell us what is fun and interesting to them and we can follow that in picking the skills rather than saying well I really like to do Wordle and and someone else says yeah I don't like those you know I don't like that. Yeah okay fine you can do we can help you do something with numbers you know or we can help you do something with shapes or um you know there's all kinds of different ways that we can um engage in in act in activities that are fun for us um and um and hopefully something like that short you know and then we can get back to what we're what else we need to get done.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

I love that I wrote down some children will need more direction it just resonated with me and I'm thinking about that in so many different ways need more support more guidance instruction direction but then we adjust according and kind of pull back whatnot and one of the things that I feel people really struggle with between kind of a a traditional I'm gonna call a traditional old school kind of ABA program versus a more N DBI type environment really comes back to the structure of what's happening in that environment if I'm sitting on the floor um with a puzzle I'm doing um N DBI no that's looking very much like you were telling them what to do when to do it offering a choice right like that is just kind of like PTT on the floor right it kind of pulls back for me how do we help people kind of understand the nuances that come into NDBI environments and setups that there is still adult direction and guidance with this what's the difference between I don't even like to call it old school I'm trying to think of the best way really adult structured but you can have adult structure and you should in an NDBI. So I always seem to struggle with how can I operationally define that or give examples for people so that they know this is really in my mind a continuum and you're going to go more structured less structured depending on what you're teaching, what you're supporting based on that child's level of support and scaffolding it out.

SPEAKER_02 42:32

Do you have any thoughts for that like how to unpack well that's that's how we ended up with decontextualized versus embedded because we would see people saying you know this is NDBI time. This is you know like this is language time this is this is the one that got us was this is DTT time. This is natural instruction time and it was like what's the difference you know and mainly because sometimes they were still done at the child's desk you know so um so again sitting on the floor or not sitting on the floor doesn't determine whether or not something's a discrete trial you know and when you look at in my opinion when you look at good um DTT I mean sorry good um NDBI practices a good and discrete um trial is embedded in all of those you know because again you give an instruction you provide a prompt if necessary you provide an opportunity to respond and you provide provide a consequence um again it may be um at a different pace um it may be different using different kinds of reinforcers it may be embedded in a in a play activity um so one of the things about NDBI sometimes is that there are fewer trials and um so we have to think about for children who need many many trials to learn something that's one of the reasons why you might use the uh decontextualized instruction because it's pretty easy to get in 50 to Discrete trials, to try to say you're going to get 50 discrete, 50 NDBI trials in a day is exhausting. You know, I like I'm not sure how I would do that in any kind of natural way. But you know, if I'm trying to teach someone the basics of imitation to do 50 trials a day, I might do 100 trials a day, you know, because again, I might need that many to build those basic skills. Um, but but then, you know, I'm not gonna do a hundred trials a day of doing imitation in a preschool classroom, you know, where we're imitating the motions of the song. You know, we're not gonna sing a um school, you know, wheels on the bus with the group a hundred times a day. Um, because you know, really, no one should have to do that. But um, but you know, you you we have to think about um how many times do we need to do that? But that's why we really stuck with this idea of decontextualized versus embedded. Is this a skill that we're teaching in a setting that's not the setting where we would use it? Um, or is this a skill that we're teaching in the setting where you would normally use this? You know, um uh getting dressed, going to the supermarket, sitting at a meal with my parents, um, you know, and my grandparents, you know, what what is the environment? And um, and so I think that those are really, you know, that's to me the big difference is that um the environment, the instruction, you can do the use the instructional practices across environments. You should right? You can you can do really good PRT or incidental teaching, um, you can do that sitting at a table, you know, and but I can also do it um while I'm playing at the um at the sensory table with kids and with multiple kids. So um, so you know, but you have to be able to um think about that. And that's why rather than saying, you know, DTT versus N DBI or and DTT versus naturalistic, we've really stuck with decontextualized versus um uh embedded because another reason for that is that we really want to be clear that the only way we know whether or not an intervention, an instructional practice is appropriate for a particular child is if they're making uh meaningful, um meaningful progress on that skill that we're teaching. That's why individualized individual data are so important. So if I'm using my very best NDBI instructional practice, but the child's data are flat, it may still be a really fabulous practice, but it's not working for that child at that time in their learning history. And then I have to use a different skill or or I have to use a different instruction, or I might need to up the amount of reinforcement or up the number of trials or something else. But I have to do something and not just say, well, this is a database practice. Of course it will work. Um, you know, it's like going to the doctor and them giving you an antibiotic and you're on it for 10 days and you go back and you're still sick, and they, you know, the doctor doesn't say to you, well, you should try harder. Um you should teach better. You know, it's like, no, I need something else, you know. So either I need a different medicine, a different dosage, a different diagnostic test. You know, I mean, there's all kinds of things that I could change, but you know, it's just like, well, if you try harder, you would, you know, you would have learned this, you know.

SPEAKER_01 47:51

So if you try harder, your strep throat would be gone.

unknown 47:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

If you bill it away. That's right. You know, so um we tend not to say that.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

Yeah. And I think like what you're talking about, I don't know if you have anything written or about this embedded versus that would be incredible. I would want to get my hands on that just to kind of keep thinking about what examples can I give to people to really help them understand that. And would that help clear up some of the confusion about what is again a DTT three-term contingent, right? That's everywhere. Here's what it could look like for a vocal kiddo. Here's what it could look like for a kiddo who's not yet speaking, preverb, right? Or a kiddo that uses an AAC type of device or multimodality. Like here are different examples to show people uh embedded versus decontextualized or walking them through how you would support them in a teaching environment versus the learning environment. I think that would be incredible for people to kind of wrap their heads around it. Again, when you mentioned it at the conference, I just really grasped onto that and it was so empowerful.

SPEAKER_02 49:03

So um so the best place to read about that is in the data manual, um, because that's really where we talk about it. And um uh, but that's really the best place to to read about it.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

Perfect. And then for um, there's one other question I was gonna ask you. Do you think that it's helpful? I'm trying to think for people who are doing the programming. So what the board, what's the board say? More than 50% of people who are BCBAs have been certified within the last five years. I sometimes see or feel or kind of experience that kind of that second A in applied behavior analysis is missing, the analytical component to really look at and make these decisions and know when to pivot and adjust accordingly. Um in my day, you know, definitely there weren't these kind of assessments that we could quickly go to and pull an item and work on and color in the boxes that didn't exist, but we still had goals and made meaningful change. So I feel like the analytical component is kind of just kind of cookie-cutter going along. Um, and that really, really important dimension of ABA is I feel like what helps when we have that flat line trend, nothing's moving. Uh you should know what to do or know where to go to find something, what to do. And I don't know that I see that as much in the last five, eight, nine years.

SPEAKER_02 50:28

Yeah. Well, I think one of the reasons, um, well, I agree with you that I I see people doing ABA without the analysis, you know, so which is which is bad. I I think it's really bad. I I think that you know, there are different kinds of assessments. So, you know, an assessment that says, you know, this is a con this is an assessment where it tells us what the child knows and doesn't know and help helps us pick goals. Um, but all that does is it helps us pick goals because it says, here are areas that the child needs to work in. And then when we talk with the family, which of these goals are most important to you? Um, you know, because again, an assessment alone can't do that. Um, but then the the other thing is that then we also do assessments where um, you know, um, you know, daily data collection and daily progress monitoring, that's where we that's the analytical part of behavior analysis, is that you know, we have to, you know, we have to look at the data. And again, if I do a set, if I'm done a session and however many trials I've had, if I over three days see that there's no change in in slope, you know, then or just change in in the number correct or change in words spoken or whatever my outcome variable is, I need to do something different, you know. So, you know, and if it's three days, maybe it's not three days, maybe it's five days, but um, you know, I think that one of the problems we see now is that the people often doing the data collection um and doing the most direct instruction are not behavior, are not behavior analysts, but behavior technicians, and they don't have the skill or training to be making those kind of data decisions. So we have to make sure that um we're having be that whoever is running the program, whether it's a teacher or behavior analyst or whomever, is looking at those data frequently. Um, you know, the other thing that I think is hard is that again, when I started out, um, you know, I might be the only behavior analyst working with a particular child, you know, and now someone might have three or four behavior technicians working with them. And another thing then that's interesting to look at is are the data different according to the different behavior technicians? Well, that's a really important analytical, you know, something that we need to analyze because why is a child um responding differently in these different conditions? Is it level of reinforcement? Is it are people doing the instruction differently? Are people collecting the data differently? Um, you know, all kinds, and it could be a combination of the three, but again, that's the kind of analysis that's hugely important. And so, you know, sometimes I've gone into programs where people will say, Oh, yeah, here are all the data that we've collected. And it's like, well, where's it graphed? Well, we it's not graphed. What do you mean it's not graphed? You know, like you can't, you know, you need to you need to graph it because you need to look at the analysis. And then once it's graphed, what's the analysis? And how are we making, how are we using that to make database decisions? So, um, and and you know, how frequently are we making database decisions? How are we informing the team about that? How are we analyzing whether or not we made a correct decision? And that, you know, defining a correct decision as a decision that improves um child's performance.

SPEAKER_00 53:56

100%. And I think about the assessments for skills, and I wonder are there any resources for assessing, evaluating instructional practices? Again, it's not that the skill is off, it's that something is a little bit off or wonky with the teaching or the instruction phase change line, adjust and track it three, four days and see if that data starts to move in the right direction. Or are we programming and planning for drift that we know tends to happen? And it's not that that that child can't do that skill with the technician, they just are coding it that they can. And that is a data collection error as opposed to that. So there's all those nuances that come into programming that I think like, how are you not? You don't graph the date, like how can you look at the story? The picture that's my part is looking at the graphs and things can happen. And I'm just old school, I guess. I don't know, but yeah, um I love this. This talk is um incredible. I could ramble on forever with you for sure, but I'm gonna be mindful of the time. Do you have any resources for project data, the data model, that I could get a link to for people if they want to learn more, some research studies that I can hook them up with?

SPEAKER_02 55:11

Well, they're all cited in the book, um, but also there's training available through the Hering Center. Um, and I will send you the link for that. But the Hering Center is uh overall link is Hering H A R I N Gcenter.org. And um they there's online training, and then we also can do consulting for people who want to adopt the model. Um, and those really are the best resources. And the data model also comes with a um uh assessment. Um, the assessment is linked to the AEPS, so that which is um uh uh assessment evaluation programming system by Diane Bricker and her colleagues, which is a general um developmental assessment for kids birthed through six. But then the our model, our skills checklist really um highlights things that uh we've in using that assessment, we found that we were most often writing programs for for kids with autism. Um so it kind of extends and dives deeper into things that children of autism may need specialized instruction in. Um so um those would be kind of the best places to get research resources for them.

SPEAKER_00 56:22

Perfect. And then the same thing, this could be adopted international. I know we have a lot of people here in here that are from different countries that I'm sure would be interested, will that work in my setting? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 56:34

Absolutely. Because the the thing um that we talk about is that you know, you have any program that you adopt, um, you have to tailor it to fit into your context. You can't just pick up a program and say, we'll do this now. You know, it's like, how does this fit in our context and our community with our people, um, with with their beliefs? And um, and so we have to you have to think about that. But yeah, we um we would love to work with people who want to adopt it. Um the Herring Center can do that. Um, I can do that. Um, and but you should contact either me or the Herring Center and we can um get you connected with resources.

SPEAKER_00 57:13

Oh, that's incredible. I got goosebumps. You can't see them, but they're there. Eileen, this has been amazing. I can't thank you enough so much for your time, your wisdom, the nuggets of information. My head is spinning. I don't have enough paper down here to write it down for my show notes. Thank you, thank you, thank you so many times. This has been amazing. You're very welcome. Thanks, Eileen.