Literacy, Executive Functioning, and Neurodivergence - An Honest Conversation with Jenn Volpe, SLP

Tune in for an emotional, eye-opening journey with two passionate  (and funny) professionals breaking down the complexities of literacy, executive functioning, and what it truly means to support neurodivergent learners. This episode is raw, real, and packed with insights you need to hear. If you're tired of surface-level advice, this conversation with Jennifer Volpe, a speech and language pathologist who owns Speak, Learn and Play (formerly Manner of Speaking) in Park, Slope Brooklyn  is what you have been waiting for,

In this episode:

• Jennifer shares her inspiring journey from NYC public schools to private practice, revealing how her experiences shaped her understanding of literacy and executive functioning.
• Investigating how social, emotional, and neurobiological factors intersect with literacy struggles.
• Why phonics and systematic instruction are mandatory, and the challenges they pose when they are missing.
• The role of executive functions like working memory, inhibition, and cognitive flexibility in reading and comprehension.
• The dangers of broad diagnoses and overpathologizing, and the impact of system shrtcomings.
• Practical strategies to support reading for kids and teens, including text structure, visualizations, and question-first approaches.
• The power of peer support, emotional regulation, and real-life skills for lifelong success.
• A call to action for trauma-informed, and neuro-ffirming education.

To connect with Jenn: https://www.speaklearnandplay.com

Follow Unmasking Social at:

 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/unmaskingsocial1
YouTube: Unmasking Social: The Podcast - YouTube

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Welcome to Unmasking Social, where we talk about building real friendships and meaningful connections without masking who we truly are. I'm your host, Sharon Baume, a speech and language pathologist with an expertise in social thinking and how it relates to autism and ADHD. Specifically with our teams and tweens. Let's dive in. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Unmasking Social. Today I am honored that my colleague, Jennifer Volpe, will be joining us. And Jennifer is someone who I can't even say what she has an expertise in, because as an SLP, she has an expertise in just about everything. On this podcast today, though, we will be taking a deep dive into something that we haven't really explored, which is literacy and how it works alongside, or doesn't work rather, alongside executive functioning challenges. Jen, it's so good to have you here on the Cinco de Mayo as you're simping on your margarita.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Margarita time. Thank you so much for having me. This is such, this is such an honor for me. Uh, this is like, I guess it's special. I don't know about an expert. Yeah, I yeah, I could tell we could start telling a little bit about myself.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Um yes, please do share everything. Share your path until you hear, until this really badass woman who's running this private practice. Okay, all the way there.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

This might be an exaggeration, but I appreciate the kind words. Yeah, no, so you know, my speech journey started in the New York City public schools. My first job was working in high school. Loved, loved that job. You know, it was a great, it was a great school. It was a, you know, a group of really dedicated teachers, and it taught me so much about adolescent and just sort of how language evolves. Um, and sort of all of a sudden this interplay of language, but socioeconomic status, but also what I I didn't know it at the time, but it was its executive functioning, right? Um and sort of how all of these things are like converging together. Um, and I don't know that I would have gotten that experience if I hadn't worked, you know, in a public school with just such a broad range of needs, but also, but also strengths. Yeah. So I was working in a high school. They hadn't had a speech pathologist in a while. So it took a little while to get the program going. And I think the one thing that I started to realize was that, and it was so different from like grad school and and even working with like younger kids was that, you know, you can't work on skills in isolation, right? When you're when you're at the high school level. You just you just can't, right? You can't be like, okay, we're gonna do the main idea and now we're gonna find all the details because so much of that work, um, it's just it's so integrated, right? And you can't just tease out those one pieces. So I started addressing my kids that way. And I I specifically remember, and it was like across everything the writing piece, right? I was like, oh no, no, we gotta, we gotta break this down. Hold on. You you can't write in like you can't just write an essay, but it's just crazy talk, you know. But at the time, I mean, well, obviously it's said it seems so obvious now, but at the time, like as speech pathologists, and and I think that's starting to change now, um, it wasn't a thing. Like, we weren't taught written language or how to address like even reading comprehension, um, which is I mean, it's all language, right? And it was always like, no, speech therapists don't work on that. And, you know, that's what a reading specialist is for. Well, guess what? When we were at the high school level, there's just no differentiation. I mean, I remember breaking down math problems. And now I am terrible at math, but I'll never forget. My God, yes, yes. But I mean, I had kids who couldn't do math. And, you know, and I remember taking word problems, right? And being like, okay, how do we do this? How do we, you know, we're gonna take the problem and we're gonna break it down. Let's find all the numbers, let's circle that. Okay, let's find all the words that kind of let you know what operation you're doing. And I had like a checklist, right? It was like, okay, what are the numbers? Step number two, what are the words that help you figure this out? Step number three, what is the problem asking you to solve? Like, what exactly do you need to do? Right. You know, like half my kids were like, oh no. I was like, well, you know what, guys, I don't know either. But I can certainly we can learn together. But yeah, it was, it was that piece, right? Breaking down these complex tasks and trying to figure out how to make it accessible, but also having to use all of these other processes. But the math one, I'll, I'll never forget. Um, and also, you know, like the social studies one and teaching, I remember like my kids, I don't know if they do this anymore, you know, because we have regents exams, but there used to be called something called the RCT, which was if you weren't getting a regents diploma, just like a regular high school diploma, um, you would take the RCT. And then a lot of my, that's what a lot of my kids did. They had pretty significant learning disabilities. And I'll never forget talking about, you know, we were trying to figure out the history. And I was like, you know what, guys, we gotta, we gotta find patterns. And and this is where sort of like background knowledge comes into play and how to use background knowledge to apply it to new things, which, you know, again requires executive functioning skills. And, you know, we started looking for patterns. I was like, you know, guys, it's all about the money. And they were like, what do you mean? I was like, if you're doing a multiple choice question about anything in history, it's either about money or power. So just pick one of the ones that has to do with someone getting the most amount of money, right? That's a good analogy, though.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

I mean, like to these kids.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Yeah, they love it. They love hearing about money. But but that's I mean, that's sort of how history goes. What did people want? People wanted money, people wanted power. How do you get that? Land grabs, wars, right? And that's sort of how we started looking through the lens and started, and that's when I really started to think about goal-directed behavior, actually, and goal-directed sort of planning for my sessions in terms of like, okay, what's the goal here? And sometimes I feel like that gets lost too. We can talk about that. Yeah. What is a goal? What is the goal? I mean, how many of you are? What is not a goal? What is not the goal? What is not the goal? Well, that's it, right? Like, so some of our kids, right? Like, say you're in science class and you have to write an essay about a concept, right? And you have a kid with a like a learning disability or like a written expression issue. And it's like, well, all right, but what's the goal here? Do we need to know? Do they do they need to demonstrate the content or do they need to demonstrate that they can write? Because this particular kid can't do both, right? So in this particular instance, what is the goal for this child? And how can we reduce some of the demands to get to that goal? And again, that's executive functioning. I didn't have a word for all of this, yeah, you know, until like maybe like five or 10 years ago. But uh yeah, like what is the goal? So if they want, if we need to know that they understand the concept, why can't they do that in another way? Why can't they draw? Why can't they give a verbal explanation, right? Why does it have to be in this very specific thing, especially something like writing, where it just takes up so many cognitive resources, right? And and again, we can dive all into that. I can talk about this forever.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

No, but well, you're so passionate about it and you're an expert. Well, we'll say.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

We'll say that's like, but yeah, so you know, and that's sort of where that high school is really where I started to understand that like you just can't teach skills in a bubble, right? It has to be related to academic work. It has to, you have to take other factors into consideration, like attention, right? Like, you know, even motor, motor issues for writing. So that was that. And and it's also how that school's also how I got into literacy. I mean, I had 10th graders who didn't know how to read. Sharon. It's a reality. It's I know. I I was like, what I what did I know? It was this, you know, came from Long Island, you know, comfortable life, and here I am in this, you know, inner city, like title one school. Like, what did I know about any of this? What do you mean guys, what do you mean you don't know how to read?

SPEAKER_01 8:24

But it is really shameful. I'm sorry, side note, because I see that happening a lot where kids are just going on to the next grade, next grade, they don't know how to read, they don't know how to write, and yet they're worried about other things. It's like as speech language pathologists I feel I feel like if the child can't read or write, has no abilities to read or write, and they're in 10th grade. I remember my first student, he was in eighth grade, he was 17 years old, and he couldn't read. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

It was like the days of social promotion. Yeah. Same. These these kids were the same. I mean, I I'll never forget being like, what do you mean you can't read? I was like, well, this has to, well, this has to end. And and that's sort of how I got into reading and dyslexia. Uh, and I was also working at CSC. I have like a bajillion jobs. Um, I was also working at CSE doing evaluations, and I was like bringing that literacy piece into the evaluations. And and actually, someone I worked with at CSC was really, they helped jumpstart my practice. She's a school psychologist, her husband is a neurosych. They are two interesting. They are they are two of the most wonderful people. And PO, if you're out there listening, um they're they're they're amazing they're amazing. And through that work, because I was sort of bringing in all of this other information and all of these other, you know, sort of details to the speech reports and and how these things, you know, how the things that we were seeing in a standardized test can relate to the curriculum and the context and what that means for academics, you know, they it was, I guess it was different than than they had seen. And yeah, they befriended me. And when I was like, I think I'm gonna start seeing private clients on on, you know, on my own. I mean, they were like, oh, I've got kids for you. It's like, great. So that's sort of how the private practice started. That piece of it. Oh, and the literacy, but back to that. But the kids who couldn't who couldn't read, I'm just like, no way. At the time when I did this, Wilson Ready says how it was still sort of like new in New York City public schools. And they used to do, and I don't I don't know if they do this anymore, but they used to have like full region workshops for the intro course. And I remember that there was one. There was no, they were like, oh, there's no more room. And I remember telling my assistant principal, I was like, what if I just go? What if I just show up and say, What does it mean? I'm not on the list. And that's what I did. And I get to the counter, right? And I go to register. I'm like, oh, my my name's not here.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

And they're like you could register online? No, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Oh, so long ago. I mean, I'm sure you register for things online, but there's a lot of things.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

There's no Zoom option yet. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Zoom option, Zoom. What was Zoom back in? Yeah, nobody knew, right? 2006. Yeah. Yeah. But I'll never forget that. And one was like, oh, another one. I was like, I swear my principal says, sign me up. They let me miss work to come here, and they were like, fine. And they had a whole list of like walk-ins. And that's how I started, that's how I got my training in Wilson. And it made so much sense. I started a Wilson program in the public school, and I was like teaching a reading class, and that was sort of unheard of, at least in my circle of Friends of the Speech Pathologists. You know, nobody was like teaching their own, like I had my own period, right? And the kids who are like they would get it was programmatic. Um, and they would come, and that was also a really great time. There was like five or six kids in the class, and you know, so like were we fluent? Did we get to fluency? I mean, at that point we were in, you know, 10th grade, probably not, but but we made some headway, right? Yeah. They could at least functionally read, which was something that they wouldn't have had because nobody was stepping up at the time. And I'm pleased to see some of the changes that have been going on in New York City um in terms of like the science of reading and following the research that has been around 15 years longer than it was implemented. So that's how I started. And then as much as I loved the public schools, like I knew I really wanted to do private practice. I knew I sort of wanted like I I was sort of feeling stuck by like year three.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Uh, totally understand that. One thing. I mean, I was rejuvenated by that specific NES program, right? Yeah. Yes. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people listening who are professionals can relate to that feeling of being stuck when you're in a large system, but you're a related service provider. You're like literally your title says related service. So you're not the main character. You're like just like a side hustle over there, you know, or side uh you know, character.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

Yeah. And and that's I was really lucky at the school that I worked at that most, at least the special ed teachers, were really great about like, no, we need you. And I was sad. That was definitely my favorite job. I love the kids. Even, you know, I lived in the neighborhood where I taught, and sometimes I would see the kids even like five years, six years later, and they'd be like, this, this, you know, they would like grab me on the semi. I used to love it. Like I would run into both students. Oh, it was a, I mean, I was at the nail salon on like Court Street, and uh the one of one of the ones who couldn't read, who were like sort of inspired this, you know, pathway into literacy was like knocking on the window. And and she had this little girl on her shoulders, and you know, I was like, I told the one, I was like, hold on one second, and I went running out, and I was like, Oh my god, how she's like this is my daughter, the things that you do with us, I do with her. I was like, I was like, this is this is like the defining moment of my career here.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

That's the whole point of what we've done.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

And I'm like, I'm like, I'm like not even carrying it. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, and you know, it was it was about showing you care. Like, I'm not a sing song-y person. I am definitely like better with you know, not better, but you know, the older kids that real talk. Like, I I mean, I would say when I'm like guys, this really sucks, but we have to do this.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Right. No, I'm totally the same way. I think we spoke about this a bunch of times before, but for those listening, the both of us are are more um in tune or in sync with the vibes that teens and tweens give off. And that was always my love. And and now I'm working with younger children too, so I'm adapting, but it's a big adaptation because all of a sudden I'm like turning on this voice and I'm making sure their hands are clean, and I'm just like, you know, I'm just like becoming like a little kid. Yeah, exactly. So I'm just acclimating, but it's just I think that some personalities just connect better with teens and tweens. And middle school for me was the primary area. And for you, it was it was high school. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Um, and then after public school, I went to a private school, but it just wasn't the right fit for me. Um, and then I ended up at a special ed school working part-time. And I I loved that school too. It was that's that school was in Brooklyn, was amazing. And again, taught me a lot. You know, the way that they their program was set up is that the speech pathologists, they call them language therapists, right? Would teach literacy to the most language impaired students. So I got a lot. So that's again when like we're thinking about like executive functioning and like now I'm teaching books, right? Like we're reading.

SPEAKER_02 15:10

Yeah, I didn't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Yeah, no, I mean it's a great program. That's still the way that they uh they run it. I'm pretty sure. Um, and it just it made a lot of sense, right? So that's when I was like, we need to do scaffolds. Like, how do I get kids to understand what they what they need to know, right? And how do I help them access, you know, more complicated ideas in just a less complicated way. Um and that that part of my career, and and I was building my private practice at the at the same time, but that part of my career was really just is like when I honed in and honed, you know, those literacy skills or or learning how to teach about literacy, learning how to think about literacy from a speech pathologist lens, which I think is different.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

It's very different, yeah. It's it's it's a lot different. But yeah, I mean I think that it should be. I mean, again, it's just my humble opinion. I don't know about you because you're more of the expert in literacy, but I feel like the way SLPs teach it should be the way teachers teach it. But again, that's just my humble opinion sitting here on the end of the other end of the mic.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

I totally agree with that. But my beef and one of my goals, my lifelong goals, is to eventually be able to like have a manual for teachers. Um when as and as far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, but grad school for teachers, they don't do anything about language development. Our teachers don't know about language development. They are our first line of defense when it comes to understanding when kids are struggling, right? They are on the front, like they get they are the first ones. And I feel like it's such a shame. It's almost criminal to not have any understanding of language and language development and what the impact of language disorders does to a kid's academics. Yeah. Language is every language is everything. But then again, it's like, oh, no, no, no. You're the language, you're the speech therapist. You you work on that ass.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Yeah. Oh gosh, they're still doing that. Come on. We've come so far. It's 2026.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Well, I mean, I remember so many years ago being on a date with this guy who said, Oh, like you enjoy doing like ba-ba-ba. And I said, Um, first of all, you're not getting a second date, but it's just so funny. And then I'm like, and secondly, like, you really are not knowledgeable. You don't have to be that knowledgeable about fields, but this is a healthcare profession. Come on. Um, so anyway, but following up on what you're saying, thank you so much for sharing the journey. It's almost like almost a combination of things. Correct me if I'm wrong, that you were kind of thrust into this position in some way because you were working at that special education school where they designated you to teach this literacy block. It was great. But then in your initial place in the high school, you were actually curious about it and you said, Okay, I don't care if I'm not invited, I'm just gonna show up. So you were just interested in it to begin with. And then now here we are with um I'm putting I'm placing you in the hot seat about two very challenging topics. You know, literacy is one, executive functioning is the other. And like you said, and I feel the same way, executive functioning has kind of taken off a life of its own. It's a buzzword. Every other person become an executive functioning coach, all you have to do is say, I'm an executive functioning coach, and parents are just desperate because attention spans are so limited. And then on top of that, we have literacy where children are not reading. It was shocking to me my first year when I had that eighth grader that was almost almost gonna have his driver's license, gonna be driving on the roads without reading. So, I mean, let's start off with the literacy piece, if if that's okay with you. So here you are learning all these things, having these blocks, which is very rare for anybody listening professionals or even those who are not professionals, for SLPs to even have. I know one of my colleagues did something, but it was like short term where she gave a literacy uh session instead of the speech and language session to a group of kids struggling with literacy, but that's the most I've heard in terms of SLPs directly reinforcing. So, what is going on? Why are children not reading besides socioeconomic status and besides all the other factors that come into play? Why are children not reading? Why are we getting to the place where a child's in 10th grade and still can't decode and still can't read fluently and then can't comprehend as a result? What is going on? That is a loaded question. I mean, just to be more specific, like where, like, are there any tools that you're using or through your evaluations, are you noticing that things are not being taught in a certain way? Is it more of an attention thing where children just in general are having more trouble attending?

SPEAKER_00 19:42

So I I think there's a combination of things. And and I think, you know, under Mayor Adams, you know, love him or hate him, you know, he was dyslexic, right? So he made a push to make sure that schools started implementing programs that were based in the science of reading and based in the research, right? We know phonics works. We we know this. We know phonological awareness works to teach the foundations of reading. So I think like when we were working in high schools and working with Aqua, they weren't doing that. It was, you know, like when I went to school, it was a whole language approach. I didn't learn to spell well until I taught phonics. Until I was, I'll never forget, I was up there and I was like, okay, we're doing the spelling lesson that's you know in the Wilson reading plan. I was like, that's why that letter combination goes on. Like, I had no idea. Because you know, it was like it was like they don't teach like us, right? In our younger years, they didn't teach it to us. It was a whole language, it was more of like learn through all those motors.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

You'll figure out the pattern, you know. Like some of us figured it out and some of us didn't. But that's what it is, right? So if you like the phonics is good for everyone, right? Um, and I just had to like remember the hooked on phonics. Hooked on phonics. Hooked on phonics, right? People love. Yes, but phonics works, right? And and schools that implemented strong phonics programs had better outcomes. So I think one of the things that was happening when, you know, when we first started out was none of the kids were getting that. And they were getting they didn't get phonics, so they didn't get the foundations, and then they didn't, you know, they they got it but there was social promotion, right? So so they get pushed through. And then like as we learn more and things start to change, but it really, you know, there was the whole writer's workshop and the teachers' college model and the Lucy Caukin. And, you know, if anybody's, I'm sure most people have listened to, you know, sold a story, and you can think about, you know, why that was so problematic. It was very similar to like a whole language. It just wasn't based on research.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Um this one was what was this one called that wasn't based on research that was controversial?

SPEAKER_00 21:45

But the Lucy Caukin, the teachers college model. Yeah. Okay. It didn't work. Well, yeah, and and you know, if you listen to Soldier Story, I I highly recommend it. It's a great series and it really talks about struggling readers and how that approach doesn't work for them. So, did it work for other kids? Yeah. So kids who are what we would consider neurotypical with great executive functioning skills, you know, in, you know, average to high average cognition can figure that out, right? But what about our kids who don't? So I think there was like this whole group, really, who's who unfortunately missed out? When Adams came, so this started. I was so happy because they started teaching phonics when my son went to kindergarten. I was so like, I was like researching schools and I was looking at it, oh, it's the, you know, we use the teacher's college, and I was like, oh God, you know, it was like a lot of people. You're in education and then you're a parent. It's so complicated, right? Once you're a parent and you're also in education, it moved the whole fiasco. My son and daughter's school are probably not big fans of mine. Oh, because squeaky. Well, because I'll call out. You know, I mean, like, I I mean, I was in a meeting and the teacher was like, and then we look at the picture to help him guess to where I was like, stop right there. I was like, I think we know he was in kindergarten and they had just made the switch over to like foundations, right? And Heggerty. Yeah. And doing the phonological awareness. And I was like, that's not science of reading aligned. What you're teaching my kid to do is guess instead of looking how to sound out words. That's not what he means. So that was the special ed teacher, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

All right. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Things are yeah, we're in a difficult time right now. Yeah. But I I, you know, you can't blame them. You you don't know what you don't know, right? And if you haven't been trained properly and if you aren't given the research, and if everything is so data driven and state test driven, like who has time to learn all these things? Well, I think being a public school teacher is probably one of the hardest jobs in the world, right? And and you know, you've worked in the public system. Um, you know, so I I don't necessarily blame, you know, a teacher for not knowing. No, I blame the system for not preparing them.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

100%. And I've had people on this podcast that were calling attention to things that needed to get better, such as trauma-informed care, because we're really missing a lot of the trauma. As speech pathologists, we're supposed to also be counselors, right, these days, you know, that even though these kids need counseling five days a week. And I had her on, she was PTSD SLP, and she said at the end of the day, the systems, it's the higher up, it's always going to be top-down. So you have to train the teachers. There has to be accountability that you do this, X, Y, and Z. And then as a result, you get, you know, a rating on that. But it doesn't seem like so much of the emphasis is on uh literacy.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

You know, I don't know. I guess I I'm in sort of the odd position where I have, you know, two kids going through the public school system. And, you know, my son is in in second grade, and I, you know, he gets some specialized services that, you know, of course I had to fight hard for. Um and he's thriving there. Like, you know, that's great. And the services have worked exactly in the way that they're supposed to. He's thriving. And he's thriving at chess, too. Oh my god, the chess tournament.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Just I just got back from Baltimore. Right. He was at that competition, the Baltimore competition.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

That's pretty much yes, and his public school, you know, there are different divisions. He doesn't play in the very high division, but his his public school came in first in the country in the in the you know, like the most prestigious divisions.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Okay, so phonics isn't as great as their chess ability.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Nope, nope, nope, apparently not. No, chess at our school. I always joke that it's like, it's like, you know, how in football. Well, yeah, I was gonna say more like football in Texas. You know, it's chess in uh is at our at our public school. But I do see a change, right? So now we're sort of in year three of, you know, the mandate going into effect where now you have to have like explicit, multimodal, systematic instruction for decoding, right? And and for literacy. Or or like that's just a decoding piece. And uh, you know, I think a lot of schools use this wit and wisdom program, which is really for like more of the language and the comprehension and building the background knowledge, which again is necessary for literacy. And I believe I remember when I went to when I went to Lucas' school and I was listening to that this wit and wisdom program, and you know, it's sort of it's aligned with the foundations and the Wilson. So the texts are sort of coordinate with the steps and and how they're learning the coding. So I think, you know, it's not gonna catch every kid, right? Like, you know, dyslexia is one of the most prevalent learning disabilities in, you know, in in the world.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

And I don't think people realize that. What you just said, by the way, yeah, I don't think people realize that it's the most prevalent learning disability in the world. And it crosses cultures, it's it's a phenomenon. Yeah, it's basically all over the world. It is this reading, this is dyslexia.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Um it is a neurobiological language disorder, right? And that's the important thing I think for people to realize. And, you know, I really would love to get to also to talk about reading and comprehension, because this is unmasking social and thinking about reading comprehension and you know, some of our neur neurodivergent population. But in terms of like dyslexia, right? I mean, there there is a brain circuitry, yes, neurodivergent. That's true. That's true. I I shouldn't say that. I I guess I'm thinking more of like ASD on the spectrum, ADHD, you know, that piece of it.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

But you have to honor that too, you know, on this podcast, all the, you know, from everything, people don't realize people think, right, neurodivergence is autism. I mean, that's just kind of like we talk about the words that have taken on maybe a life that maybe is different than what it was intended for. But yeah, dyslexia is very much in the category of neurodivergent because the brain is working differently.

unknown 27:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

The connections that we need between like recalling letter names for sounds. So the visual with the sound, you know, the connections, the the neural connections aren't there. It's been demonstrated on functional MRIs. Um so, but yeah, it is one of the most prevalent. So I think that all the support, like I think it's sort of catching, it's it's keeping up those kids who are always on the borderline, right? Who could sort of mad, they could get behind, but they weren't great readers and who by third grade would have been identified, right? Because now they've fallen so far behind. So I think, you know, there's always gonna be a subsection of the population where, you know, because dyslexia is also a spectrum of severity. So there's always gonna be a subsection that this isn't gonna work for because they're just not getting enough of it and they might need more one-on-one training or whatever. But the way, you know, using scientifically evidence-based, research-based, you know, methodology improves outcomes. So I think there's going to be a lot less of, you know, kids not being able to read by the time they get to high school. I hope. Yeah, we're not gonna know for 15, 20 years, you know, we're not gonna know for another 10 years.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

But uh but that's the hope. And, you know, like I'm very thankful that this became the mandate because this is what works. Yeah. Listen, phonics is the doing phonics, you know, doing phonological awareness drills, like stuff is boring. It's not fun, but it works, right? And simple and boring sometimes is the way to go and systematic and repetitive, right? Yeah. That is that is what's gonna help our kids get there. So I think that so that piece of it, right? So and and literacy encompasses so much. It's not just the decoding, but it's also like comprehension of written, of written data. Right. It's also, you know, comprehension, like I guess, yeah. The written text, you know, it also encompasses writing. Yeah. So there's just, you know, literacy is such a broad term, and there's so many little pieces that go into it. And then there's like the neurobiological side. Again, we could talk about this all day long. Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

Well, no, but but to your point, so this is where the executive functioning piece comes in because literacy very much has to utilize a lot of the functions of the brain management system, which is the executive functioning, right? Brain management system. So 100%. I think when I finally was trying to piece everything together was this this always happens, right? A good friend calls you and he, you know, is some SLP advice. What are the children having trouble, you know? And um, she's sending me the report, the nurse, like, and she lives in another country and she has ADHD, and she's so confused because that's quite the combo. Yeah, and she's so confused about all of it because uh you she felt like things were difficult for her in some ways in terms of the reading piece, but she thought things were getting better, and nobody ever really came out and said, By the way, there's probably likely likely have ADHD, but also a processing disorder and also dyslexia. But I was trying to explain to her in a calm way, of course, that a lot of these things do overlap because again, when the management system of executive functioning is broken, it it does really impede the ability to decode and break down sounds and words because that all requires manipulation of sounds that which is prioritizing, organizing, planning, right? All of it memory. Yeah, working memory. There we go. So speak more about that. So this parts of this parent, she wasn't just, you know, um making things up. This is real.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Yeah, it is. And you know, my neuropsych friend, I remember him talking about like stealth dyslexia. There are a lot of kids, right? And I've seen quite a few in probably the last like two years where, you know, they're getting good grades. They're functional, right? Because actually their management system is okay, but their phonological system is not. But because they're so they have such strengths in other areas, they're like filling in the gaps, right? Right. Well, I think what happens with when you have executive functioning issues on top of sort of this phonological process. And now the auditory processing is a whole different thing because now you're trying to sound out and the sound, the word, the the sound sequencing is all, I mean, it's sort of a whole other level to to you know, figuring out how to break down the sound structure of of your language. Oh my gosh, where was I going about with this?

SPEAKER_01 32:02

We were talking about Oh, but then there's the executive functioning where a lot of function I. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you have good executive skills, a lot of kids can escape by 100%. If you don't have good executive skills, it like exacerbates everything, right? So when when you think about decoding, right, there are there are a couple of processes that sort of really go into reading, you know, some more than others. Um, you know, one of them is working memory. So, you know, as we know, working memory is pretty static, right? Visual working memory, there's verbal working memory. But what working memory is, is basically like a holding cell, right? So you're holding information while new information is coming in, and then trying to incorporate that new information with what's being held. So the best way I ever heard it explained to me was like when you're driving, right? So say you don't know where you're going, right? And you're like, and someone's reading directions to you, right? And you're like, okay, you're gonna drive. And when you see this landmark, then you have to make a right, right? So now you have to keep in mind, right, like, okay, I have to look for a landmark, but you're also processing new information. And then you're like, oh, once I see it, then I need to make the right, right? So it's like the incoming information of what you're seeing, the landmarks that's being sort of integrated with the information that you're sort of holding on to, right? So for our kids with working memory, once you start trying to sound out, you know, words with with, you know, maybe more than one sound, and then try to blend it, sometimes working memory can't hold all those sounds while you're also trying to recall. So, you know, like the process of reading is like it's a sound process, but it's also a visual process, right? So you have to look at a letter. Your brain has to go back, you know, kind of deconstruct that letter, figure out what the sound is that that letter makes, right? So yeah, right. So you have to hold that all in while also trying to process other sounds. So, you know, even in the word cat, okay, you're like, all right, now I know the c, but now I've got to hold that while now I have the a, the ah. All right. So I now have to hold the c a, and then I gotta do the t. And then for some kids, by the time they get to that t sound, they've lost it.

unknown 34:06

Right?

SPEAKER_01 34:06

And this is especially with the executive functioning piece because this is the executive functioning.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

This is working memory.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

Because this is all working memory. This all goes back to working memory. There's no way if you're having an executive functioning deficit that you're gonna be able to hold that much information. And then on top of it, be able to comprehend the sentence you just read with cat in it. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

No, forget. I mean, that's all we could talk, you're like, forget it. Like with the decoding, like if you're not a fluent decoder, you can't comprehend. There's a there's just not enough resources to be allocated for that, you know, and that's why and that's why you also need to read with fluency. And I think people sometimes are like, oh, well, you know, their decoding is fine, but the fluency is off. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. If you have poor fluency, you've got like a couple of different issues. You got either poor decoding or you have poor language skills, right? If you think about the way that we phrase when we read, it's based on syntactic constructions. If you are a little, if your syntax processing is not that great, if you're not really sure about phrases, about like a prepositional phrase goes together, or that the fact that a the always sticks with the noun and you're not, you know, phrasing all those things together, it doesn't make sense. So, you know, I I hear a lot of talk about reading fluency and automaticity, but you know, there's usually, I mean, not all the time, I guess there's, there's usually some underlying issue with with automatic, like with the either it's the decoding's not automatic, the recall's not automatic, or the the the ability to process syntax and language quickly enough to be able to phrase things in in a chunk, which is how our brain, right? Our brain does things in chunks, right? So we read a chunk, we take a pause, sometimes there's punctuation to help with that, and then we keep going. So if you have working memory issues, like it becomes hard to be able to do all that. You know, the other executive functioning piece that is related to decoding, but also uh reading comprehension is uh inhibition, you know, and inhibition is the ability to block out things that might be habitual. I can't tell you how many times a kid will tap up, make an error, sound out the word, sound it out perfectly, but when they blend it, make that same error, right? Because they can't inhibit that sort of neurological response of like, you know, it's almost like they've like dug a groove into this one, and that's the answer. And the it just can't be any other way, right?

SPEAKER_01 36:23

So that's the point of blending is the part where it gets lost, meaning they're able to say the sounds, right? Sometimes, and then they try to blend it, and then it's it keeps being incorrect. And I'm wondering if that's but the same word, right? On the same word, right? No, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

They keep saying the same error. So like if the word is fascinating, right, and they're just like fantastic. All right, well, let's break it up into syllables, and you know, we'll take off the the morphemes and all this stuff, and then they go and they break it up and they segment it perfectly, and then they're like, fantastic, when they go back to read it, and you're like, what did we just do all this work for? Right. So they can't inhibit that sort of initial guess response, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:03

Yeah, and some of the ties to phonemic awareness and phonological processes, which are two separate things, but the sound letter correspondence piece, right, can impact both phonemic awareness, the ability to manipulate sounds and words and understand that a sound, right, has an actual a letter has a sound, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:22

Sometimes more than one.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

Yeah, exactly. That's true, right? More than one, sometimes more than more than two, right? No, but um then also with um phonological processes, then there's a whole nother layer. I'm not trying to make this more complicated, but I've seen a lot of the students who are having this difficulty also not understanding uh how to produce sounds. So it's like almost like the articulation piece and making specific uh routine, as we call them, phonological processes, whether it's a tub for a duh or a cover for a gu, or vice versa.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

Yeah, the front end.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Yeah, or the S or the wonderful S that everybody thinks you're doing all the 24-7.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

Yeah, that's that's a tough one, right? Because in terms of speech and speech production, I'm pretty motor-based in terms of a lot of the kids that I treat, their errors are not phonos. So what phonological processing is, is like an error that's a rule, right? So a kid can physically make a sound, yeah, right, but they're not doing it. So say for example, a perfect example is like final consonant deletion, right? So they're leaving off the ends of every word. So the word is ten, right? So the word's ten, they're gonna say te, but they can make an N because if it's the word nut, they can say nah, right? So they have the physical capacity to make a sound, but they're not sequencing the sounds in the right way. So that's really more of like what the phonological processing piece is. I see very few kids who have a straight up phonological processing issue. The speech therapists here who are listening are gonna be really mad at me. Gliding is not a phonological process. It's not. The kid can't physically make the sound.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

So it's interesting because we're taught in grad school that it is. So in the sense of all the SLPs here who are listening who might be offended, or all the other parents, like some parents that we know that that know a lot about speech. And for all those listening who are making those errors, the reality is as SLPs in grad school, we're taught that gliding, which is substituting R for W or even R L for W, L for W is considered uh gliding, which sounds nice because you're literally gliding, right? Like you're because you're not gliding, you're not going back.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

But you're not breaking a rule. You're not breaking a sound of a language rule. I mean, okay, so I'm gonna put a disclaimer that this is my own personal belief, and I am happy I like to be proven wrong.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

So we like individual beliefs.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

We don't like the very but to me, and now listen, phonol, a lot of times phonological processes, it when we think about it in terms of typical development, are just an easier way for kids to speak, right? They don't have the motor control. So a lot of them, a lot of phonological processes, like they sort of are normal and they and they go away. But the ones that stick, right? So if I have a seven-year-old, right, who's come say like laskally lab it, right? Like, dude, can you make an R? It's not like he could say the R in some context, but not in the other. So what rule is he breaking? No, he can't physically make those sounds. So to treat it like a phonologic, I mean, it's just like a pet peeve. I, you know, I mean, you know me. I'm prompt trained, I do myo. Like I'm really big on motor. Yeah, I'm really big on, you know, motor speech. And like even my clinicians in the office. I have one clinician who also does reading, and she's so talented and amazing, but like she cannot wrap her head around the motor production part versus the but that's either healing or go.

SPEAKER_01 40:47

But R is one of those very complex sounds that requires a sequence like no other, and is found in a million different contexts. And so it's like on the R sound, it requires a lot of manipulation. It requires basically manipulation of the articulators or something usually, and correct me if I'm wrong, jaw height. Right? The tongue is usually not in the right place, the jaw might not be in the right place, right? The lips, and again, that can happen with other phonological processes, but not in the same way where like all photos. But then it's not a phonological process.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

If you can't get your tongue up, or if you're to say, like, I'm doing this as if people could see me, right? But if you need your jaw to get your tongue up to say a t, or you can only produce sounds with the back of your mouth. So you're like for everything the T, like if you can't physically make the sound, to me, that is not a phonological process. Phonological processes are rule-based, right? Like you're breaking a rule about how sounds go together in English. So I will say though, I've seen kids with both, right? If you do have phonological processes, like especially some of the less common ones, like initial consonant deletion, right? Even assimilation, that is indicative. Like that is a red early warning sign for dyslexia, right? Like it is pretty common to see kids who are of later reading challenges have had articulation difficulties.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

Especially the typical ones, right? The atypical processes are a bit of a replica, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:13

For me, yeah. I mean, uh articulation disorders in general are an accepted sort of warning sign for dyslexia, as is word retrieval, right? Because you know you've got to retrieve so much information when you're when you're reading, delayed speech. Like if your kid, and and I will say my son had well, he didn't have the phonological processes, but he had all of those. So I was convinced for a long time he's dyslexic. There's we're we're past that. He might not be, but uh I might have been wrong about that. But he had all the red flags, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:39

Yeah. So sometimes that happens, though. Sometimes it starts a line in a weird red flaggy way, and then you realize wait, he could read the whole chess champion book.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

That's so over the chess. I mean, it's great. I I should knock it out. It's like amazing that my kid who basically can't sit still for 15 minutes or follow any directions that I give him, could sit for an hour long game.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

That's an outlet, but that's his outlet, right? That's where executive functioning comes in, where sometimes he has really good executive skills. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Yep. He has always has since he was a kid. I remember him. We were like, he was like four years old. He's like, okay, mommy. And you know, his speech was delayed, so and he has a lot of grimatic. He's like, phone, we were leaving, phone. Yeah, wallet, keys, got it? And I was like, oh my God. Like, so he he has really good executive skills, right? So, which is why I think some of the early challenges that he's had with reading and sort of, you know, even like even a little bit of language have been mitigated because his executive skills are good, right? All right. So we were talking about what are the processes that sort of go into executive function.

SPEAKER_01 43:43

Yeah, and so how to also address it. Like, so for example, you know how to address this, but a lot of people don't a lot of people don't even know how to work on literacy, let alone how to do that alongside executive functioning.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

Yeah. Well, I would argue that it is executive functioning, but you know. Well oh some of the well yeah but some of the Oh my gosh, like so we we talked about inhibition, right? Right? We talk about working memory, like that. Those are all important to both decoding and comprehension. Like think about it. When you read a book, right? Yeah, you're constantly getting new information from the pages that that you're reading. You have to keep that in mind, right? You have to keep that in mind. Now you're using your background information, right? So you're pulling from long-term memory into this sort of like working memory cell, and then you're sort of shifting your perspective based on the information that you're taking, right? So that's that's sort of like the working memory process. So imagine with our kids who are having difficulty comprehending, they're not activating background knowledge, or maybe they don't have it, right? And then they're not necessarily taking in the new information and sort of like mixing it up to come up with a new schema, right? So that's that's the working memory piece. And then, you know, we talked about the inhibition piece in terms of decoding, but in terms of comprehension, like ignoring details that don't matter can be different, can be hard. And, you know, one of the ways I train that with it or train it or work on it is is really interesting, you know, because I have a couple of high schoolers right now, and they're academically rigorous schools, right? Where like some of this is like college-level work. I'm like, holy, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:21

Some of the high schools. My high school wasn't like that. Yeah, but some of the high schools in New York City and other big cities, yeah, they're teaching them on a level that is makes college look easy.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

Right, right. But what I do is, and you know, we I change, I use the same article, but I changed the question, the the short answer question, right? Because details, right, and this goes into prioritizing also, right, which is also an executive functioning under under executive function, understanding what is most important. I'll change the question. I'll be like, okay, you have all these details. What are the details that are most important to answer this question? Right. And then we'll move on to another question. Okay, what are the details that are important to answer this question from the text? Sometimes they overlap, but sometimes they don't. Right. Right. Because it really depends on the context. But that also goes into cognitive flexibility, which again is another executive function, right? You have to have the flexibility to sort of sort information, right? And like and understand that while this might be really important for one question or one prompt, it may not be important for another, right? And how do you ignore that that irrelevant information? So, you know, a lot of times like I teach kids to read the questions first. Like Yeah. Especially for academic work.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

So yeah, I usually I've done that also. I mean, when they would practice for anything, I would always say look at the questions first and then try to preview what you're gonna need to know so they can kind of predict a little bit of what they're looking for 100% as opposed to looking for afterwards. Isn't it great to get a head start and have that prioritization already in effect? And then afterwards you can then fine-tune it, right? So I'm all for that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

Yeah. Read the question. Tell me what the keywords are. Right? Because a lot of times keywords that are in questions, especially like, you know, especially with teacher-made materials, you know, they're what's in the question is gonna cue you to what's in the text. But what but what reading the questions does also is provides a schema, right? A sort of an idea of what something should be about, right? So a lot of times, once my kids have like read all the questions, I'd be like, what is this article mostly gonna be about? And they can answer that because they've already looked at all the keywords and they can make that prediction, right? So what we've done technically is reduce some of the load on working memory, right? We're reducing the cognitive load by they already know what's important, right? So now we can inhibit information that doesn't sort of fit into that schema. Now, is it going to work 100% of the time? No. But for for the most, and especially, I mean, and it also varies for like fiction and nonfiction text. But you know, nonfiction text has specific structure, right? And we know that. And it has specific keywords, and there are six text structures, right? So what's the other thing I do? I teach teach text structure. Well, this is a cause and effect paragraph, right? How do you know? Well, let's find all those words, you know, let's they're comparison words. Or I don't know, sorry, we're doing cause and effects. They're causal because while so, like those are all clues that are going to tell you that we're we're really talking about one thing causing another.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

And this helps with the working memory, right? Because the working memory is so delayed and now they can chunk information. They're chunks.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

100%. You you you're you're basically, again, reducing that load so there are more resources allocated to more of the comprehension of the content is is is that piece, right? So and the thing about executive function is right, they also don't work in a bubble. Executive you're right. So you need to attend to information while you're yeah, we're yeah, we're talking about, you know, cognitive flexibility and we're talking about inhibition, but those things are all sort of working with or again or against. Yeah. Right. And then we can talk about, you know, and the thing that I find most fascinating, this is and this is the thing that I love about working with reading comprehension, is that cognitive flexibility and that shifting piece, right? And it does have to do with working memory, but it's and it also goes into theory of mind. You know, this is there's a reason why a lot of our kids on the spectrum really like nonfiction. I don't have to make the social inferencing pieces. Right. Right. Right. So, you know, a lot of times when parents call me and they're telling me that other kids have like comprehension issues, and I'm like, what kind of books do I like to read? ADHD kids tend to like uh like uh graphic novels. It anchor like the visual piece anchors the attention. Visual piece, right, yeah. The visual piece anchors the attention. And typically kids on the spectrum really like to read nonfiction.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

Yeah, biographies to read about sex shit.

unknown 50:09

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:09

There's no social inferencing.

SPEAKER_01 50:11

No, no perspective taking taking me in. There's no perspective taking it all, right? You don't have to shift perspective, you don't have to shift from one idea to the next. You can just kind of enjoy it, and it's just a made-up story, so it doesn't matter, right? Whatever was made up is great. It's fun. You're right though. I I never noticed that until you mentioned it now. That I think I would say 99.9% of all the individuals with autism or autistic, I'm not always politically correct, autistic individuals have always loved nonfiction. And some of the stories were wild. I was like, wait, I never heard of this one, I never heard of this one, but they were reading some really cool nonfiction. Yeah, and it's and they were so captivated by these nonfiction books that they had trouble even like putting it away during social time. It was actually during social time.

SPEAKER_00 50:53

This is my social time.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

I highly clean. Leave me alone, leave me alone. I'm in the cafeteria sitting here by myself, and I'm gonna sit here with my book, my nonfiction book. You know what? Escape too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

Yeah, I also great, great. If that was what calms your nervous system, but you know, socializing amps it up, all for reading in the corner, you know, like be true to who you are. But yeah, but in but in terms of that sort of, you know, that nonfiction piece, it requires less resources for our kids, right? And you know, for some of our kids on the you know, autism spectrum, the social, like the social inferencing piece is so hard.

SPEAKER_02 51:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:33

But what I like to do with those kids, you know, because you were asking for some of the ways that I work with. So I'll I'll do sort of non-fiction, but there's a couple things I like to do. One, I like to do visual representations of what's happening in the book. Most of our kids who have reading comprehension difficulties are not visualizing.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

Right. Some of our ADHD kids are really visual. And they can totally visualize that, right? Um, and their reading comprehension issues are, yeah, yeah. Their reading comprehension issues might be a little bit different than maybe some of our kids with ASD who are not visualizing. I don't know. I shouldn't say that because every every kid is so different. It's it's hard to make a judge. But in my practice, what I've noticed, right, is that the kids who have reading comprehension, and this goes for language, not just ASD kids, but or kids with ASD, but kids with language impairment, they're not, they're not making that visual piece. But that is also an executive functioning function, right? Being able to make a picture in your mind. Now, I don't know about you, but when I am reading and I make a movie of sort of or movie or a visual of what's happening, a lot of times it has to do with places I'm familiar with. I sort of imagine things that I've seen, whether it be movie, whatever, right? So I'm pulling from my background information to sort of make this mix up. I'm pulling from my memories, right? So then we start to think about like episodic memory and sort of using your memories to help understand what's going on in the story, right?

SPEAKER_01 52:57

And then neat trick calling upon prior experiences, which they may not want to speak to, right? Because a lot of these social scenarios maybe they block, you know, some of our students block out or they rather not address it. But now you're relating it to the nonfiction piece anyway, which they like. Yeah. And so they may accidentally give you a social scenario that's repeated, you know?

SPEAKER_00 53:19

Well, maybe. I mean, I never thought of it in those terms, but which is, yeah, of course, that totally makes sense. Yeah, but I was thinking, like, if you want to work on that skill, if you want to help kids understand, you know, or have a better understanding of like fiction text, because you know, they have to read fiction as part of school, you know, they can graduate and then they can read whatever they want. But this is sort of necessary to get through school. Take away, like, and this goes back to our like full circle. What is the goal here, right? Right now, my goal is to get these kids to visualize, right? So I'm gonna take out all of that social inferencing piece. Because if for them, it takes too much, too many cognitive resources, right? So I'm gonna use nonfiction stuff, right? There's no new, there's very little nuance compared to fiction. I will draw pictures of it. What does it look like? We start to sort of get into if-then thinking, right? And and sort of counterfactual thinking. Well, let's see. You know, uh like I have a kid who loves like those uh I survived books. Yeah, Junior, you don't talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

Oh my gosh, I remember those from like a bunch of years ago. Like I survived the Titanic. They're still around. I survived the Titanic. I remember buying them for a nephew of mine. Yeah, he loved it. Right? So many years, I can't believe they're still around. Wow, okay.

SPEAKER_00 54:27

No, and they're still popular too. And I love those.

SPEAKER_01 54:30

Yeah, they're so informative. And in and also I feel like they give you it in in short, very quick kind of bursts. So like you could learn it. Anybody, any type of reader can learn it.

SPEAKER_00 54:41

100%. Um, and what I like about those is to sort of practice that if-then thinking or that counterfactual thinking. It's like, well, what if the, you know, plane in Pennsylvania, if the if they hadn't taken over that plane, what would have happened, right? So thinking about other. So now we're talking about cognitive flexibility, right? We're talking about shifting, and we're talking about perspective taking, right? But we're still using nonfiction text. So we're playing on some of their strengths to work on some of the weaknesses, right? And when you're talking about executive function, like I would argue that, like, I don't know if this is a thing, but uh like social processing and it has a lot to do with self-regulation. Like that in of itself really is like an executive function, right? It it's you know, managing sort of emotions, yeah. Managing the emotions of others, of yourself, how you're right, like that that is a big overlay of who like what we are as humans. Yeah. Um, so so I would argue that, you know, while it's not like I mean self-regulation is, but while social processing is not really like named as an executive function, like I would argue that it does have some elements of that.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

Well, I would also argue that you the proof is in the pudding in the sense that have you met an individual who has autism that doesn't also have an executive functioning challenge. No And so even Well, I mean it it could happen. I haven't no. All right, so I've never encountered it. I haven't encountered it. So over the years, again, and manifesting in different ways, as you've spoken about many different types of executive functioning challenges, but they've all had some form, whether it was dysregulation, which I feel like is the most common one, that would affect everything, working memory, it would affect flexibility. That's a social process, cognitive flexibility, the ability to shift, right? Perspective, shift from one idea to another, you know, accept feedback or accept different ideas, which is so hard. Obviously, if you're trying to teach something new, it doesn't always go over well. But that just shows you that this is a social process because how I mean, I've never encountered someone who has autism with a social communication challenge is that doesn't have any 100%, right?

SPEAKER_00 56:53

And and a lot of it is like think about the skill of inferencing, right? Like what is an inference? An inference is taking your background information, sort of holding it while new information is coming in to make to draw a conclusion about maybe something that's not explicitly said. Yeah. Right? All of reading, all of literacy is sort of inference making in fiction. I shouldn't say that. Not all of it, but it's it's inference, right? So and social inference, you know. So I think speaks to your point, like a lot of this is social processing, but also understanding fiction text requires social process, it requires perspective taking, it requires understanding, you know, that theory of mind, whereas like you may have information that the other characters in the book don't. Right. So how does that impact sort of your schema? Right. And then with a cognitive flexibility, it's like, oh wow, you've just learned new information. So now I have to shift my picture. I have to shift my schema, I have to shift my movie. How am I going to adapt to that change? And a lot of kids with with ASD and to some extent even ADHD, because you know, there's like a rigidity sometimes that happens with ADHD, don't love that shift. Right. It's almost like it's almost like mind-blowing for some of them. So that's why I like to sort of work on those things in like using nonfiction text.

SPEAKER_01 58:10

Wow. You're blowing me away. I love how scientific you are, Jen. I feel like you're when I listen to you, I feel like I'm speaking to a scientist just because so many people and speak as, you know, as SLPs, we go about our day and everybody works in different ways and we're all siloed from each other, you know, sadly. But the way you articulate and speak to these points is in a very scientific way. Like this is how the brain is executing things. This is how the brain is processing things, right? Whole science behind dyslexia. There's a whole science behind executive functioning. The overlap isn't just there, it's because of of how information is being set up and broken down and prioritized. And wow, like it's just like music to my ears because I feel like every time I speak to you, I learn something new and I love itself. No. But yeah, I know you hate you hate this. I know you hate this glazing. Anyway, as the cool kids say. But um the never heard that before. Glazing. Glazing is a Gen Z word that actually the teens and tweens have adopted. Gen Z or Gen Al Gen Alpha. Gen Alpha more, yeah. But they they both use it. But basically, it's just a way of saying, like, stop complimenting me or kissing up to me so much, you know? Like, you're glazing me. I can't be, you can't be too nice to somebody then you're glazing them, and that's not cool.

SPEAKER_00 59:27

Do I get like, I mean, do I look glazed? Do I get like dewy in my face?

SPEAKER_01 59:34

Weird language. It's not literal, like oh gosh, another one. Oh no, that's for another podcast. We're not delving into it. That is that is for another podcast. I'd love to like, yeah, I know. I could speak for hours, but I want to get to a second point. And then I want to close up with a a little bit of a controversial thing because I love a good controversy and I love the. I do, I do. You know what? I should be doing bachelor recaps instead. I mean, what's going on over there?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:01

We're in our office. I mean, I've sort of fallen off, but we are used to be, and and some of the other providers in the office are really into like 90-day fiance.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:12

So, you know. Yeah, no, but there's a quality.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:14

Well, especially right now, because well, I always wanted to do bachelor recaps, so I used to have a blog. For all those listening that are tuning out, just hear me out. We have to be.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:23

This is something I didn't know about you.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:25

Yeah, so I it's so funny. So, yeah, so basically I would just have like a blog and I probably had like nine people reading it, but it was really good. Like back then, AI wasn't around, right? This was like nine years ago. AI wasn't around. I was just kind of enjoying the moment. Like I was really crafting things like in a very creative way. And like it was funny. Like I really thought my blogs were funny about each episode. Then I stopped doing it. Like all good things, right? They come to an end sometimes and we go into something else. But I I still was a loyal bachelor follower for the most part. Then I started getting bored because they started putting in these much younger people, even though I'm getting older, they were like significantly younger, and it's like people are getting married later.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:03

So it's like now they have the golden bachelor, which would be too old.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:07

Right. But you can put the the middle, the middle age, the middle, the people that were having the midlife crisis. Those people need to go together. But no, but the most recent one, the scandal, is that's why I bring it up. Um, you know, there was a Mormon wife that was on The Bachelor, and essentially really she was selected as a bachelorette because, in an effort to save their life or resuscitate the franchise that was competing with all these other shows right now, because every other day there's a new reality show out. They unfortunately selected somebody who had a DV case in the past, they knew about it, but her her the father of the child, and because the kid was hurt with a chair in the middle, basically he released a tape, even though it was on the Mormon Wives show, but he released it so that the public, everybody could see it, even if they don't watch Mormon Wives. And then the bastard found themselves in a tizzy where they're like, oh no, like what do we do now? And all their subscribers were pulling out because I mean, you putting someone on air that now everyone knows was involved in a DV case. That's not good. And then there was a second case after the filming stopped where there was another DV case, but I think both of them were responsible for it, her and the a very toxic relationship, right? But essentially that's why. I mean, that's that's real drama. And then now, sadly, there's a child involved. And we speak about children, Jen, right? This is a real life situation, and this is a real kid that's about two or three years old that's in the middle of all of it while everybody's taking their publicity. I don't want to judge for my little throne over here, but it's it's kind of Yeah, but it's a pr it's a pretty throne. Yeah, it's a pretty throne.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:43

It's a gorgeous throne.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:44

It's a gorgeous throne, but like I, you know, but again, now they weren't gonna air it, and now they're airing it in the summer. So who's not gonna watch that? Come on.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:52

God, I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:53

Well, but yes, so speaking of what's the controversy? The controversy, no. So I the executive functioning piece, right, is a very much a buzzword. It's also become a buzzword with a lot of other things. And what I find is that a lot of times, and I think we we did speak about this once before, but I really would like to hear your perspective just so I could throw you under the bus. But basically, like when it comes to this executive functioning piece, which affects literacy, do you find that overall Hey cutie buzz? It's not a real podcast until the kid shows up. Hey sweetie. Hi, how are you? I'm Sharon. Can you say hi, Sharon? Hi, Shu. Hi! How are you? Do you want to talk about reading? She's so cute. I know it's bedtime, but basically, yeah, back to the controversy of these buzzwords that we speak to, the executive functioning. It seems like every person has an executive functioning disorder, right? It seems like sometimes um I read neuropsych reports and it's almost as if every neuropsych report I read, someone has ADHD or autism. And I'm not discounting the fact that there's something going on that may be leading to this. I just want to hear your perspective on is there like an increase in all of these things because of devices and because of something else that's going on in our environment or and or because ands exist in language. I learned that in therapy. And or can it be that like people are we're red flagging things too frequently?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:24

I have a lot of feelings about that. I think one of the biggest things I think is what we know. Right? This is lovely. I think we know more about what sort of what these things are. Hold on. I I cannot focus with you here. So we're gonna bring you out to daddy tour. You know, there's no no peace. No peace is a pair.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:47

There's no peace.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:48

24-7 job. Oh, she's so cute though. She's worth it. She's so cute. Yeah. Um, Shirley Tell me. But um yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:56

So I think we know more. I I I do. And I think, you know, I think this was always here. I think that there just wasn't a name for it. Right. And and I think when you have something that's a spectrum, yeah, right, you know, you're gonna see a lot of diagnosis because, you know, there are, I mean, I feel like everyone has a little touch of something. I am a disorganized hot mess. I'm intentionally hot messed. Really? So you are disorganized. Yeah, well, I mean Yeah, no, I mean, like if if you saw my desk, if you see my papers, I can imagine that. I got a million sticky notes in my brain, I got a million sticky notes on my desk. You know, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:33

I never would have thought that. Yeah. See, we don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:35

See, you masking.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:37

Yeah, we're all masking.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:39

We're all masking in some way. So I think that's part of it, for sure, is that we know more, we can identify more, we understand more, we have better research methods, right? We can so I think the the definitions of what makes a disorder a disorder have become broader. I can't speak necessarily or with any authority on. The part about devices. I mean, research comes out, especially with the attention. Like, does it feel like a correlation? Yeah, it totally feels like a correlation that we're seeing an uptick in attentional disorders because we have this sort of like frequent dopamine hits, right? With where you could sort of get everything you want, like right away, waiting for things. No, and everything's disposable too, right? And everything's disposable. So, I mean, how does that not impact you know brain function? But at the same time, it's like people said that about TV in the 80s, right? And how it was gonna ruin kids' attention span. So, you know, is it just an evolution of human beings? You know, as we evolve and as new things come out, like humans evolve, the brain is plastic, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:48

You know, so things change. So is this a different way of processing? And we're sort of in this transition in our evolutionary sort of journey. Um, I don't know, to be honest with you. I do think that one, we know more. Two, the definitions have become broader. And I think three, it's really that access to services.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:06

You know, we're talking about healthcare, you know, we're in a point in our country where, you know, healthcare, and it has been for a long time, it's hard to access. You know as well as I do in private practice, insurance covers none of this stuff, right? Because it's developmental, right? So a lot of times a diagnosis can open doors into treatments that someone may not be eligible for if they didn't have that diagnosis. And if you fit enough the criteria, because now we have this broader criteria, does it make sense? So you can get the help that you need, right? So I mean, I'm not saying that people are going around misdiagnosing people or over-diagnosing because it helps. I mean, I think I do think that because so much of our services and so much of what you know, you know how what a fight it is to get services at a school, right? So, how are you gonna do that without a diagnosis? So if you can check off a couple of the boxes and you're like, yeah, it might be mild, but it's still there, but that's gonna open access for you to get the support you need. I'm for that. Right. Because it's not happening at the school level.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:08

Yeah, and it's being different for different people too. Mild may look like someone who's functioning and masking all day, right? So it's kind of you never really know how mild, I guess, it is, but it's exactly knowledge is power, but knowledge can also be we become more hyper-vigilant, maybe. At least I do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:24

I mean, I and I think so. And I mean, if you're talking about getting access to services, like again, I'm all for it. You know, and we talked a little bit before about, you know, when we were t talking about teacher education, about the system. You know, the system to the educational system, and this like we're really lucky, we live in the Northeast, right? Yeah. Um, you know, our educational system is quite good in comparison to other places in the in the country. But, you know, there's there's systematic challenges, right? Where a lot of these interventions probably could be given at the school level. The class not the school level, the classroom level, right? There could be there, you know, if you had someone who was really knowledgeable and trained in executive functioning supports and could support a kid with ADHD well, right? Because, you know, as as we know, again, a spectrum, but most kids with ADHD have average to above average intelligence. So they can handle complex ideas, complex thinking, but you know, their attentional difficulties and their inhibition is sort of limited. So it impacts sort of what they're what they're getting. But if you had someone who was trained in ways to scaffold that, to, you know, decrease the cognitive load so they're able to focus on what's important, you wouldn't need to have as many diagnoses, right? To get the supports that you needed. And you could argue that school 50 years ago was really different, right? Because maybe they used a different methodology. You know, part of it was that a lot of this diagnosis was unaccepted, but the teaching was different. And, you know, I know you've mentioned this too, you know, the accountability, the accountability of students to manage homework, you know, in some of the schools. And I don't know if this is good or bad. This is certainly not a judgment, but there's a lot of sort of like, oh, you miss a deadline. We'll extend that for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:06

Yes, I see that happening a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:08

Right. You see that happening a lot. And now I'm not necessarily saying that's a bad thing, right? People make mistakes, right? You should learn from your mistake. But at the same time, if we're doing that every single time, right, what are we teaching about accountability? What are we, how are we teaching kids executive functioning if deadlines aren't actually deadlines?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:24

It's interesting because a lot of them don't have deadlines because I know that I speak to a lot of these teens and tweens, and they tell me, like, oh, oh, don't worry, I'm gonna get an extension. But it happens so often that they keep getting extensions. And I understand because it's a blurry line, because you want to have a balance of accountability while also supporting the individual, especially if they have this problem missing deadlines. The problem is how are they gonna learn not to miss deadlines? See, this is where this whole thing, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:51

It's like, how do we balance it? Right? We want to be cognizant of people's challenges, right? And, you know, or our kids' challenges, because they're real. These are not things that are made up. Kids are not lazy. Nobody's lazy, you know, nobody's lazy. I mean, I think there are. Maybe. Maybe there are some lazy people.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:11

But I think for the most part, I think, no, no, no, but to your point, I think most of the individuals we're speaking about are actually working really damn hard. Really, really damn hard. Over time.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:21

And you know, over time. We want to be, you know, and it's so interesting. I was just in an IEP meeting today. Um, or no, no, no, not an IEP meeting, sorry. I wasn't in an IEP meeting today, but this wasn't, I was at a results evaluation meeting. And, you know, we were talking about standardized tests, right? And, you know, the standardized language tests, I do a ton of evaluations and sort of like, yeah, all of these scores are in the average range, but none of these tests actually take into account the effort that it takes to get to an average score. So a lot of times when I think about, you know, kids disability, I think about the effort that it takes to get where they are, right? So I don't care. Like you could be, and that's another issue, right? With when we're talking about diagnoses, is yeah, you could be in the average range, but like if you're a kid with ADHD, you might be staying up to 11 o'clock doing your homework or if you have exactly. A lot of them do.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:14

A lot of them are all miners. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:16

So, so then when we're talking about like deadlines and all that stuff, well, what sort of effort are they making to get there? Right. So, and how are we supporting these kids? And I think again, it goes right back to the system, right? What supports do we have in place to help these kids learn these skills so that they can thrive later on? You know, it can't just be you didn't meet a deadline, so so it's out. You get a zero. You know, for some of our kids, that that's not, that that's not okay, right? They should be able to learn from their mistakes. They should be able to advocate, but it also can't be, well, we'll just keep giving you extensions, right? There has to be some sort of balance to, well, we need to hold you accountable, but here are all the things that we're gonna do to support you to help you get to that level.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:58

Right, because there's still a whole world out there, and we have to survive as humans, right? And I think that's where the balance is too, is we want to accommodate, but at what point do we say, okay, but we want to prepare you for the world? It's scary worlds out there, and it's not always gonna be as safe. It's not gonna be not all workplaces.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:18

Affirming, right? Like not all workplaces are going to give you the accommodations you need. So, what is our job as interventionists, as teachers, as principals, right? Is to teach these kids the skill. And I think that's where I sort of understand, like with the extensions, with the extensions, like I'm okay with that as long as you're teaching the skill. Right. To help them get to a place where they need to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:43

That's where I well said, right? Because if you teach the skill, then fine, you know, bring on the accommodations, but are they getting it? Are they getting what they really need? So this brings me back to my final point. I could talk to you for hours and hours. Um, sorry, thank you for staying on for so long. More margaritas. Yes, the margaritas you're getting together. Mayo, everybody. This is gonna be a really bad Mayo, but still, let's think of Maya now. But yeah, Jen, to to uh close this up, I think it's it's really a beautiful way to end. But you and I, in an effort to change the world, right? Yes launch uh this interesting, actually very, very good blueprint for executive functioning.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:22

Very forward-thinking.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:23

Yeah, very forward-thinking, very progressive, about you know, just trying to support our neurodivergent individuals with this executive functioning piece, right? It's still something that we are, you know, fine-tuning and we're passionate about. Very passionate about both of us. And there are some elements in there that could make a really good executive functioning group. And I'm not trying to sell the program, although this is my podcast. However, I'm just curious from your end, like what makes this maybe a little bit different? And for those out there, you know, that maybe don't live here and are trying to get an executive functioning group together, whether it's focusing on literacy, which is always gonna come up probably because it requires everything in executive functioning, or whether it's, you know, specifics, what are some elements that can really support um and bolster those executive functioning skills in a group setting?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:14

So, right, well, we talked a little bit about how social language processing, right, like really feels sort of like an executive skill. So I think addressing that in a group session, right? And, you know, I think has so many positive sort of implications. Like a lot of executive functioning coaching, right, is like one-on-one. Let's organize your space, let's get your materials together, let's get a planner. And and all of that stuff is great. I think but what do our kids need to be successful, right? They need to be able to collaborate, they need to be able to negotiate, and they need to be able to advocate. So I think, you know, as we are sort of designing this program, we're really thinking about those things. And now every kid is gonna come with a different level, with a different set of a skill set to offer, right? So, you know, what I when we were developing this program, we really were like, well, we gotta really like we're balancing individual needs with group needs. How do we combine those two? Right. And the answer is one-to-one work in very specific areas where each kid, because not every kid has the same weakness in executive functioning. So this one-to-one work, right? Oh, my light went off. Sorry. One-to-one work with a teacher about with your specific weakness, and then let's bring it into the group setting and let's have a problem to tackle.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:34

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:34

How are we gonna use those skills that we've just learned in a way that A makes you feel heard, makes other people feel heard, where the contributions are sort of melded together in order to solve this problem. And how can we be flexible? Because you know, if you're in a group, you can't always get your way.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:53

And also how do we negotiate that?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:56

Yeah, and also the peer support piece. I think that a lot of individuals are struggling as teens and tweens, and they're isolated, and you give them individual therapy or you give them therapy in the school in a group, you know how that goes. A group of three, a group of whatever. And not everybody's mixed well or matched well. Yeah, and they still feel so alone. And a lot of this is emotional too, I think. I mean, I know what's emotional too. There's an emotional piece, and so I think that's a big part of it is having peers support each other, you know, and understand that they have strength and they can help. And what greater purpose than, you know, helping some. I feel like, right, that's that's a big element that's a part.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:29

And and I think that's where, you know, I think that my strengths, right? And we don't we talk about who brings what to the table, and my strengths are more in that analytical piece, right? That individual piece, whereas you have a much better holistic view of the emotional, of the social piece than I think I do. And, you know, what I think our program does is combine those two things seamlessly, right? So everybody's getting a little bit of everything, and you're getting to practice the skills in a safe environment. It is really what that is, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:01

And it's preparation for lifelong learning. Lifelong learners, we are. And on that note, Jen, manor speaking, Brooklyn, New York, where can everybody of course, but before we say goodbye, where can everybody? I'm gonna put it in the notes anyway, but I just like to end off with where people can follow you, where people can find you, where people can, you know, make your services since you're an expert in many things, including now smalling. Well, if anyone needs a dysphagia, eval.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:31

No, not dysphagia. Not yet. Not yet. Not dysphasia. No, no, no. There are there are some things that, you know, we I don't want to be a jack of all trades, but master of none, right? Right. Um, so oh gosh, I'm like Instagram, like, I don't know how to say it. Not into it. Disabled.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:47

No, it's not that I'm not into it. I'm just it's I we Manner of Speaking does not have its own Instagram page, but I'll help you out with that. I'll I need it. But we do have um my office as a large, which includes a social worker and some social skills group. Every once in a while, an OT joins our practice. Um, it's called Speak Learn and Play. And you can follow us on Instagram. You'll see a lot more than just me and a lot of our programs there. So you can follow us at Speak Learn and Play on Instagram. Um, and you can also find me at MannerofSpeaking B K-L-Y-N.com. And I'm happy to answer. I love talking. I love talking to anybody. So if you I love talking to professionals, I love talking to parents. So reach out, you know, we'll we'll find some time.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:28

Thanks so much, Jen. This was so much fun. Okay. Oh my god, it was fun. So scientific. This was so like I learned so much. I know so so many others. There were so many layers to it, but it was just like such a great like mix of fun, serious, but also like so many teachable moments. So thank you so much for just imparting all your knowledge on the entire community that's listening. Oh my gosh. Please have me back anytime.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:54

Yes, this was a lot of fun. Thank you. You're such a great host.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:58

Thanks for joining us on Unmasking Social, where we neurodiverse advocates and those who support them. Explore how real friendship begins when we start showing up as ourselves. If today's episode resonated with you, please share it with a friend, leave a review, or follow me for more conversations that provide information on neurodivergent ways of thinking, communicating. Until next time, keep staying social.