45: Authentic Connection and Mental Health: What Neurodivergent Adults Need to Thrive: With Dr. Daniel Wendler

In this episode with Dr. Daniel Wendler , we dive deeply into the world of mental health and authentic connections. Dr. Daniel Wendler is a proudly autistic clinical psychologist, two-time TEDx speaker, best-selling author, and workplace mental health expert.

He combines  hisclinical expertise with personal lived experience to help audiences better understand neurodivergent burnout, mental wellness, and human connection in a way that feels authentic and comfortable. He shares his own love story of meeting his current wife who has ADHD, and how the overlap brings thim closer together with a deeper understanding of one another.

 Prepare for a raw, honest discussion on building confidence, overcoming the shackles of learned helplessness navigating support, and fostering genuine relationship in both the personal and professional domains.

To Follow  Dr. Daniel:

https://www.danielwendler.com/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome to Unmasking Social, where we talk about building real friendships and meaningful connections without masking who we truly are. I'm your host, Sharon Baume, a speech and language pathologist with an expertise in social thinking and how it relates to autism and ADHD. Specifically with our teens and queens. Let's dive in. Hello everybody and welcome back to Unmasking Social. On the podcast today, we have Dr. Daniel Wendler, also known as Dr. Dan, who has reached a lot of people through his social media presence as an autistic psychologist who has also spoken in many platforms to encourage individuals socially. He also is someone who motivates individuals within the HR establishment and which gives a lot of talks on improved social development just across the spectrum. And so, Dr. Dan, thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

It's a pleasure. I'm excited for the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Is there anything that led you down this path to where you are now as this voice for neurodivergent individuals, supporting them and counseling them in so many different ways?

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Yeah. So so the turning point for me really was my my moment of diagnosis. I was just before starting high school, I was diagnosed with autism or technically with Asperger's. So I like to tell people that I'm vintage because you can't get that diagnosis anymore. Right, but you could.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

We're in the same generation because I worked with the old school Asperger's kids, and that was totally cool. But now the DSM doesn't like it.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Correct. And and also I guess there was some reporting that indicated that he was a Nazi collaborator. And so I'm like, I'm I'm okay with retiring that name. I think I think if we work with the Nazis, we can we can set you your name aside. But yeah, like this, this was really pivotal for me because I, you know, I I I knew that I was different than the other kids. I knew that I struggled socially, but I didn't know why. Um and and I thought for the longest time, well, well, there's just something wrong with me. Like maybe I'm bad, maybe I'm too weird, maybe, you know, that there's something just wrong about who I am that means that other people don't find value in me. But then when I was diagnosed, I I realized that, like, okay, well, you know, that one of the big defining features of my diagnosis was these areas of social skills that I was lacking in. But I'm like, well, you can learn a skill. And so I went through the process of trying to teach myself these social skills. You know, I was studying Spanish at the time, I didn't stick with the Spanish, but I kind of looked at it in the same way of like, here's a foreign language. I didn't grow up speaking this, so it's gonna be harder for me. But can I learn some pieces that'll help me? And I realized that I could. Um, and then after some years of that and being able to build connections, see how amazing it is to have friends, stuff like that. I was like, I want to try to help other people with this. So I started a website, improvyoursocialskills.com. It's it's still out there, but it was just like me being like, here's some thoughts that I have on on how to be social. And I realized two things as a result of watching that. First, that there was a real need for it, not just among people on the spectrum, but kind of everybody. Because the fact is, like the the this goal of learning communication skills, it's not a unique need that that autistic people have. It's like everybody needs to communicate better with everybody else. Nobody's nobody's born, you know, reading minds. And so, like, this is just something we all need to work on and we can all get better at. And then I learned I realized number two that like I didn't want to be just some dude on the internet. Like, here's here's some of my opinions, here's some of my thoughts. I know that some people have been very successful at that, but I'm like, I I wanna, I wanna be able to trust what I'm telling people. I want to base it off of expertise. And so that's what led me to become a psychologist, go to grad school. And then since then, I've kind of continued in that work of sort of doing outreach, you know, sharing ideas, helpful tips with people. But now it's kind of as a psychologist, um, so I can kind of mix my lived experience and my clinical experience. And then also it's it's not just the one website, but I do a lot of social media outreach. I, as you mentioned, I do a lot of uh keynote talks at conferences, corporate uh trainings, things of that nature, because I want to kind of share what I've learned from my life and in my training with the world to to help other, you know, little autistic Daniels who are growing up now be able to have a better, better shot at the future than uh than I did when I was a grown up.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Thank you for sharing all of that. I mean, it just seems like every step is connected to each other, like one step led to another, to another, and you really got in touch with what was your purpose, your calling. And I like how you touched upon the universality of all it all, how social communication is something that everybody is working through and working on. Of course, it is difficult in a neurotypical world for our neurodivergent population, specifically the individuals with autism and social communication challenges, to maybe understand certain nuances, actually, many nuances, but in general, interpersonal skills I feel like are really difficult these days, especially with the generations that are just continuing with the media. Like I didn't grow up, I know you probably didn't grow up completely with just social media. I didn't have any social media until, you know, later on in the day. And I'm noticing that people are just interacting in such a different way. And sometimes I feel like it almost even that like the COVID-19 um regret in my mind was kind of like a social regression where people are interacting in a remote way, and then you come face to face and you have also different generations mixing together, which I'm sure you get to when you're you're in the workplace because it's it's getting complicated when you have Gen Z, Gen Millennials, Gen Alpha, who they're not even working yet, who knows what's gonna happen. So it's it's so great to that you you speak to everybody about this. It's not just, you know, one group of people, but it seems like your inspiration was the the fact that you were little Daniel, you were little Dan trying to understand the world. And so when you were little Dan, you know, trying to understand the world, you were maybe 12, I'm just making up an age, right? What was life like in terms of you trying to access the social world? If you can remember in those earlier years, what were your big struggles or hurdles?

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Yeah. I I think that well, when I when I think back to being a little Dan, like my my biggest struggle was was really the sense of helplessness. Like I I felt like I just I remember feeling like I know what I'm trying to do here, and it just doesn't work. Like I could see, you know, here's these other kids, they're all talking together, they're all having a good time. I'm just gonna go and be a part of them. And then I go and I and I try my best, and then it falls apart, right? Like they, they, they get up and they leave, they make fun of me, they whatever. And then I and I I just am completely baffled. I'm like, why did that happen? I don't know like what to do differently. I don't know what what this was was going, you know, what was going on here. And so I remember like that helplessness. And then I remember also this sort of this weight of I think sadness that came from that, where where it was, you know, be because I would try so hard over and over, like any small additional failing or a struggle or setback would would really hit me hard. I I remember I have this distinctive memory of being in art class in like elementary school, middle school. We were learning how to draw a tree, right? So this is not, they're not teaching us to be, you know, Monet or anything, like this is very basic. But for some reason, I couldn't like get the branches right. And I remember like just crying at my desk because I'm I'm sit, I'm looking around. Everybody else is drawing their trees are looking fine. I can't do it. You know, later on I would learn that that you know, dysgraphia, like poor small motor dexterity, is part of how autism shows up for me. But but all I knew at that time is I was like, the this should be hard. And and so why is it that even this small thing I can't do? I think that that was a big, a big part of it, which is I think part of why my diagnosis was so healing, because it was, it wasn't just this like, well, there's nothing wrong with you, but it was also this like, well, you you have agency, you have power, you have the ability to to to learn skills and to build the life you want. It's not, it's not just this helplessness of you're gonna try and then you're gonna fail.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Yeah. And it it's interesting because you touched upon how you were trying to interact with these individuals who were your peers, who you were going to school with. And I think so many times it's misunderstood. Like a lot of uh people in the education world, even that I've worked alongside, they need time to process that. A lot of times they'll say things like, oh, you know, they don't really want friends right now, they're not really ready for it. And then as a speech pathologist who developed an expertise in that area through train through uh the NES program here in New York City, obviously we learned that actually there are different ways to seek out friendships. And sometimes it doesn't land the way you want it to, but it's not the fact that people want to be alone. It's almost, and you're the psychologist, I mean, just human nature, as human beings, we want to feel connection. We want to feel connected to others. So it's so hard, especially in those uh years that you're describing, where you already feel like, oh dear, like I can't even get somebody to really interact with me, engage with me. And then on top of it, like a simple task is so complex. And I see it so often where you someone is literally not a branch, but just you know, doing something so simple, a simple task in class, and and they just shut down. And it's like, what's the trigger? Why are they so upset? And it's it's because they're not understanding something and they're just so fed up from trying to understand all these competing things. I think people don't give people enough credit for that. That and you're again as a psychologist, and when you have repeated failures happening over and over and over again, eventually you're gonna be triggered a lot, no?

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Yeah, no, I think I think that sometimes people have this exasperation with with you know autistic kids or even autistic adults where they're like, come on, it's it's it's you know, it's a drawing of a tree. What's the big deal? Why can't you hold it together? But the fact is it's not about the drawing of the tree. It's it's about the like, my life feels like a string of failures and it and feels like I can't do anything right. And then now here's the latest reminder in a list of a hundred of those things. And so, like, you know, that I mean, it makes sense to cry about that, right? Like that, you know. Yeah. But I think, I think we just don't often take the time to kind of extend that empathy. And I think especially like, you know, the more that somebody's different than us, the harder it is for us to put ourselves in their shoes. So, like, you know, a neurotypical person might be able to understand why a neurotypical child is crying, but they might not be able to understand why an autistic child is crying. And that's that I think is, I think one of my big, you know, if I could put a billboard out and have everybody in the world see it, I would be like, look, like, you know, people, everybody's carrying more suffering than you're aware of. And this is, you know, kids, adults, autistic, neurotypic, it doesn't matter. Everybody, everybody's carrying some kind of of hard thing in their life. And so when, when somebody is is doing something that you dislike, I think start from this place of empathy and say, what, is it possible that there's a pain here that I'm not seeing? And if I was in their shoes and I was feeling the same pain, I would act out in the same way. And that can oftentimes give you greater patience in in dealing with that person.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Yeah, I think that it's so hard sometimes when you're not in someone's shoes to really understand why they're acting the way they are, just in just in general, on a day-to-day basis, right? We're all carrying some sort of pain or suffering with us. It's just not all of it's visible. And I think the invisible is a little bit harder to understand, you know, and it's not something that's maybe physical that you see that's right in your face. And so uh I think, yeah, empathy is really important. And honestly, from my experiences over the years as a speech pathologist, I found that the teens and tweens in autism in the program I worked at were some of the most empathetic people. And the way they showed love and support was just so amazing. And I'm not just saying that I saw it. I saw the way they extended a hand when they saw someone in distress and they picked up on it, and maybe they felt maybe like they needed to be there for that person because someone wasn't there for them. They didn't, they didn't want anyone to feel left out. So it it was really something powerful. Uh, but yeah, so it was interesting because now you work with adults as a clinical psychologist. And so I'm so curious because a lot of these teens and tweens go on and become adults, and adults can reflect on younger years and are dealing with all sorts of different uh struggles. What are some of the common struggles that you see in your practice when working with the adults?

SPEAKER_01 12:06

Yeah. So I think I'll I'll I'll touch on, I think, two things that are that are in some ways like opposite sides of the same coin. I think one of the biggest struggles that that people run into is is what's called the cliff, which is that there's a lot of supports out there for, you know, autistic kids. And then you turn 18 and it's like, okay, bye, you no longer qualify for any of this. And so then somebody oftentimes is able to do okay with the right kind of supports, but then you withdraw those supports and then now they they they fail. Um and and I think that that's that's one piece of it that oftentimes people just sort of spiral downwards because you you pulled the rug out from under them. And then I I think the other side that I see is that there are sometimes people who have the ability to make it through the cliff, who have the ability to maybe, you know, hide their needs more, mask their struggling more, and and appear as though they're okay. And so even though the the supports are withdrawn, they they still are on some levels successful. But there's this, there's this hidden cost, there's this hidden suffering. And so you can you can get into, you know, people talk a lot about autistic burnout of like, okay, well, I'm I'm holding it together day after day. And I I can do that. I I can make it through this environment that that feels inhospitable. But every day I do it, it's like I gotta clench my my grip a little bit tighter. And at some point that really gets to me. Or you you can have the same thing that I think, you know, as a psychologist, I see happen to anybody who has some kind of pain in their life that they don't give themselves permission to feel or or receive compassion for, is that you you start to numb out the hard things because you don't feel like you can ever get support to deal with them. And then that causes you to numb out everything else. And so you see autistic people who get disconnected from their feelings. They just sort of go through life in this very numb kind of way or they get they get caught up in numbing kinds of activities. Like, you know, nobody plays video games for 14 hours a day every day because the video game is just that fun. It's because when you do that, you can you can numb out, you can disconnect from your reality.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

Dopamine hit, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Exactly. Yeah. And so I think that that's the other piece that I see that sometimes people like the support is withdrawn and then they they flail around and it's it's clear that they're struggling. And then sometimes the support is withdrawn and then they they just quietly carry the burden of that into their life until they kind of forget what it would feel like to actually be supported. They they only kind of know what it's like to be deprived of the things that they need.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Yeah. And it's interesting you mentioned that because I've had people on this podcast that spoke to specialized colleges. There aren't that many of them, but that include those supports that are missing because a child just is leaves the educational system 12th grade, right? And then it's over, right? And if there's not the right supports or preparation in place for supports, even though there are disability offices, you're not going to get the same type or level of support. Uh, and so I I've always grappled with, okay, and maybe you can help me with this. On on some level, you want the individual to be independent, right? And be independent enough so that when they do go to college and supports are withdrawn, they're able to cope and not have to mask and just, you know, able to cope in a better way. And but then on the flip side, you you need you need a level of support when you're going through through high school. So is there an answer that Dr. Dan can give to this one?

SPEAKER_01 15:16

I I mean, I wish that there, I I think the biggest thing that I would say is that the main thing you can control is to be asking the right question. The answer is kind of muddled, but the right question is exactly kind of how you're expressing it of like, how do we give the right amount of support so that it it supports, it supports growth rather than, you know, stagnation or overwhelm, right? You know, if you're if you're going to the gym and you're trying to build muscle, you want to be able to lift a weight that you're like, oh, this is kind of tough, but I can get it up. If you're like, I could do this all day and I don't even notice it, well, that's not going to strengthen you. And then if you put the weight on and immediately you drop it, then that's also not going to help you. So it's about finding that like that right level so that over time you can build strength, you can build capacity. Because it, I mean, that that's part of anybody's growth, right? Is learning how to handle challenges, have resilience, have grit, all of those things. And and it like, where exactly do you, what is the right dosage, what is the right amount of challenge support, et cetera. Like that, again, there is no one size fits all, there's no easy uh answer. But as long as you are making sure that you're asking that question of like, what is what is the challenge level that is going to contribute to growth? And then if if I give a challenge level, if I if I give a level of support and it feels like either this person's not growing or this person's overwhelmed, well, then can we recalibrate? That I think over time is going to lead you in the right direction. The the one more thing that I'd add to that though is that it also I think is really important to ask the question of what are we growing towards? And is this something that the person themselves cares about? Because that's the other thing that I sometimes see is that like, yeah, you know, a parent is like, oh, like I really want, you know, my kid to be, you know, independent so that one day he can go, you know, get his own apartment. It's like, well, but maybe maybe the kid doesn't like, you know, doesn't want his own apartment. Like he loves living at home. Like he's he's got mom's cooking and and you know, the familiar and stuff like that. And so, you know, in that case, the mismatch is is that, you know, like they don't want to take on the challenge because what's the point, right? Like, I mean, you could I I could learn Portuguese if you really challenge me every day, but I don't want to learn Portuguese. Like, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

I don't know if I could. That's too complicated for me.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Okay, well, maybe maybe I couldn't. I don't I don't know. But I'm like, but the point is, like, I I certainly wouldn't be if if I didn't, if I don't want to. If I didn't, if I don't I mean, I'm sure Portugal is lovely, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

Yeah. No, I mean, Brazil seems lovely too. I haven't been, but yeah, I mean, I haven't I haven't tried to learn Portuguese. But but you're right. I mean, it really all is strength and interest based. And as more advocates have come out over the years, all the programs that are built around that social thinking model are geared towards, okay, let's think about the interests, let's think about the strengths, and let's harness those so that we can allow individuals to have that motivation to do different things based on what they enjoy. Otherwise, there's gonna be no motivation at all. So it is what you're talking about, it seems to be very critical. And the other thing that you mentioned was also, okay, there's no prescriptive measure of support that's gonna work for one person. The dosaging is gonna obviously change and you know the goal is to wean support. But I also heard the concept of interdependence where it's basically I somebody actually on this podcast who's a parent coach was talking about interdependence. And I I never thought of it like that. But it's like, am I independent? No, there's a village around me, right? There are people around me that I connect with, that I talk to, that we give each other support. So it's kind of, in my opinion, just when the goals, especially on these, you know, individualized education plans are all about independence. Well, what does that really look like when the child is no longer a child anymore? Does that mean that they still don't have supports? Like they could like, shouldn't we be teaching them, okay, who do you go to? Who can you go to in college, right? Like, shouldn't they know by the time they get to college, if we're doing the job the right way as educators, okay, these are the people that you can turn to when you're having a tough moment.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Yeah. No, I think that that that framing is really wise because yeah, like in in in mature adult relationships, mature adult life, like we don't want somebody to be, you know, the mountain man living off in in you know in a in a cabin by themselves and they, you know, make their own underwear out of out of being. Unless they want to. Unless they want to, then which case, I mean, it seems like that might be kind of itchy, but you know, you can do that if you want to. But yeah, like, I mean, I think I think about my marriage, right? And like, you know, the goal for my marriage shouldn't be for me to be like, oh yeah, like I don't need anything from my wife ever. You know, like like that that would be a very distant kind of marriage. What what we want is like, oh, like I need a lot of things from my wife, but also she needs a lot of things from me, and we give a lot to one another. And it's, you know, I think it there's some complications in that, you know, you don't want, you want to expand somebody's universe beyond just their parents, right? Because their parents aren't going to be around forever. So you wouldn't want to be like, oh, they're really interdependent with their parents. They give a lot to their parents, the parents, like you want them to be able to go and build that out. But but I think that if you think of it in terms of not this person needs to be a mountain man, but this person needs to be able to build a community of friends where the friends help them out, they help the friends out. They they find a workplace where they contribute value to their employer and their employer, you know, gives them a good work environment and a and a and a livable wage, stuff like that. Like I think that that turns it from this isolation view into a way of can you grow their contribution? Can you grow what they can give to other people? Because that's often more meaningful and more motivating than just how can I just take care of everything on my own?

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Yeah. I mean, from a psychological standpoint, giving is so critical in terms of meaning, purpose, value, right? It's it's it's so much uh more purposeful to give, right? Um, especially when you are experiencing all these challenges, you've it you can find really great meaning in it just like you've done. So as a psychologist working with the adults, you you're privy to a a very interesting perspective because a lot of the adults now are were once upon a time these teens and tweens who didn't necessarily get those supports because autism wasn't something that was fully acknowledged or neurodivergence, whether it's Audi HD, ADHD, any site, you know, a pre dyslexia, any anything. It just wasn't fully on anybody's radar. I mean, I'm underestimating it. I mean, it really, it really wasn't there, like the knowledge, the understanding, you know. So do you find that they're I mean, I you can't really share personal things, but as a whole, like the big picture, are clients coming to you with specific difficulties from the past because it again, the they're not they weren't given the support that we see today.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Yeah, I think the the framing that I like to put on it that I think affects a lot of neurodivergent people, I mean, it affects everybody to a certain extent, but it can be especially potent for neurodivergent folks, is is kind of the learned helplessness. Um and and I like to kind of give the metaphor of like the way that circus trainers used to like keep their elephants from running away is that when you were a baby elephant, they would like chain you to a tree stump and then you're a baby. You can't get away from that. But then when you're an adult elephant, they chain you to the same tree stump. Now you're an adult elephant. If you put a little bit of effort into it, you could get that tree stump up and go on a rampage or do whatever you wanted, but you don't even think to try because you still feel like the world operates the way that it did when you were a baby elephant. And I think that that that same thing often happens to autistic people, where it's sort of like, oh, well, when I was a kid, nobody knew about this. And so there's there were no supports available. And so why would I go look for supports now? And it's like, well, now, like there are supports available, right? Like, you know, maybe your workplace has a neurodivergent affinity group, or maybe you can find a therapist who's a neurodiversity affirming, or maybe you can, you know, go find a book and read from it. Or, you know, or they think, oh, well, you know, earlier in my life, nobody really liked me. And it's like, well, back then your your pool was like the 15 kids in your in your school. Now you have the whole world. You can go, you know, make friends wherever, and you can probably find a group that's going to be more welcoming for you than than your random high school classroom was. And so teaching them to kind of have that realization of like, I'm not as limited as I was back then. I I have much more power to be able to build the life that I want. That I think is one of the big things that people often need some help working on.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

It's unlearning, right? It's a lot of unlearning of what you were taught, which is so hard, which is why they're lucky to come to you. And I'm sure they come with a lot of this, but but on that note, I was just a psych major undergrad. So I'm by no means a psychologist, but I just, you know, love learning about psychology. And I just I I know that with autism specifically and other neurodivergent types of difficulties, it's it's it's hard to give therapy in a very scripted way. And I've I found that a lot of people that I've spoken to that are neurodivergent um have told me that they couldn't really battle their eating disorder, for example, that was happening at the same time because they were given this prescriptive kind of approach of do X, Y, and Z or OCD, or it could be even just severe anxiety, phobia, whatever it may be. And they were given like a very prescriptive design, but it wasn't working for the same reason why the prescriptive design for social doesn't work, where it's like, okay, this is how you're gonna be social today. You're gonna look at that person in the eye, you're gonna smile, and you're gonna say hello, right? Like it just doesn't work. So do you find that in your practice uh it's it's hard to give those prescriptive approaches? Like you have to tailor things a little bit differently than than in kind of what the textbooks say, black and white?

SPEAKER_01 24:22

Well, I think I think that any therapist who's doing a very prescriptive, like manual well, I shouldn't say any. That's it's a little bit too broad, but but oftentimes those prescriptive, manualized kinds of approaches are are an indication of of a less skilled therapist. Because I think that that any I mean, any real again, I'm trying to not just talk on what but I in general, the way that good therapy works is that it should feel a lot like a a collaboration where the client is in the driver's seat and the therapist is the GPS, meaning they they will help you get where you want to go, but they're not gonna tell you where to go. So they're not gonna be like, here's my agenda, here's the plan, you got to do this. It's gonna be like, okay, here's this goal and let's do that. And then also good therapy often is going to feel much more like curiosity than like advice. Um, you know, a therapist will occasionally be like, oh, I, you know, maybe you should try this or here's this technique to, but usually that's, I mean, you can get that from a self-help book. Usually the thing that that is really useful and unique about good therapy is the curiosity and understanding your experience. It's not the like, you should go to three different parties today, and here's what you said, you know, here's what you should say. It's like, okay, when you think about going to the party, what like, what does that bring up for you? And oh, it it feels like it makes you nervous. What is what is the nervousness saying and what does that remind you of from earlier in your life? And huh, I wonder what that's about. And like those are the things that are genuinely helpful for people. And I think that a good therapist is going to do those things, whereas a bad therapist is very much like when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And so that they're just gonna bonk on you, you know, with their hammer of therapy. And so I the main thing that I would say is like, I think that neurodivergent people are more likely to need good therapy. Like, like let me back up for a second. I I think that even when all you have is a hammer, yeah, if if you really are just a nail, if you really have a pretty straightforward, simple kind of issue, then that therapist might be able to help you. But I think neurodivergent people are much more likely to be in a complex situation where they need a skilled therapist who can give, you know, the highest quality of therapy to them.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

Yeah, I know. I'm glad you mentioned that. And because you're here, I'll just pick your brain selfishly. Well, there are therapies, even that I've approached myself that I've gone to therapy for, like, for example, CBT, right? And some of those certain parts of CBT, certain elements, whether it's ERP or some of the act components, act is a little less structured, it's more holistic, but they're very rigid, right? And so a lot of times if you don't do things in a certain way, you're usually told by the therapist, like, oh no, like you're you're just you have to do it like this, right? If you don't do it like this, you're, you know, you may not get anywhere, right? So I mean, I don't know if you if you have a purview into that, but while I have you on the podcast, maybe you can speak a little bit to that, like how yes, there it needs to be a level of structure, I guess, with when you're working with neurodivergent individuals, which pretty much anybody who uh is seeking out, you know, some type of specific therapy is likely to be some sort of neurodiv, because neurodivergent, the umbrella, it encompasses so much, right? So, so like, is that bad therapy, or is that just so, you know, this is this is a structure, this is how CBT works, this is how ERP works, this is how uh DBT works, and you're gonna have to follow this.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Yeah. So there are, I mean, there are certainly some formats of therapy that that are that are more structured or less structured, or or more or less what's called directive, which is like, you know, more directive is the therapist is kind of leading it, less directive is you're kind of leading it. So there are legitimate differences, but what we know from the research on on therapy or therapy effectiveness is that the the differences between the different modalities are a very small percentage of what actually determines if the therapy is effective for you or not. The the biggest impact is what's called common factors, which are things that are true across whatever therapy style. And it's it's things like do you and the therapist have a rapport? Like, do you feel like you can, you know, trust the therapist and are safe with them? Do you have a common understanding of what the goals are for therapy? Can you give the therapist feedback about what's working and what's not working? Those are the things that again doesn't matter what acronym of letters the therapist says that they're doing. If those things are present in the therapy, then it's likely to be effective. And if those things are not present, then it's likely to not be effective. And I think that like what I would say is that a a most good therapists in my experience are able to be be flexible in how they do things. So again, even if somebody is a CBT therapist, and I mean, like I use some CBT in my practice, right? Even if somebody is a CBT therapist, they like they're not gonna be like, oh, well, this thing that I told you didn't work. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you again, but louder. You know, like that, that that's just bad therapy. They're they're gonna be, you know, they're gonna be curious, they're gonna be, they're gonna find a way to adapt it, they're gonna be flexible. And and so again, I think that potentially certain styles of therapy are gonna attract certain kinds of people. And so, you know, is it possible that within a CBT, a CBT therapist is gonna be a little bit more likely to be, you know, rigid and you know, not not willing to listen to you. I mean, maybe, but then also a therapist who picks a really non-directive style might be more likely to not have clear goals, which would be another issue that could attract the therapies. Right. It really is like it's not about picking the one right modality, it's about picking the right therapist for you.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Right. That's very well said. The right therapist for you, which is also hard, which is why advocacy is such an important piece, which you see the adults, and advocacy wasn't necessarily part of the curriculum, right? It was just kind of like, okay, just go out there. This is how you're supposed to do things, and you're supposed to do it like your neurotypical counterparts, and good luck, right? Like the chain, like you were your metaphors are phenomenal, but the chain, like the elephant and and the chain there. And and now it's all about building up the advocacy skills so that hopefully when therapy is introduced, because a lot of individuals do need this therapy, I believe everybody should be in some sort of therapy, especially with whatever's going on in this world. But every day is a new day. But uh yeah, it's just, you know, it's just like, I don't know, a horror movie. But basically, I think that they're better equipped now, it it seems like to advocate and know, okay, this is a therapy that I need. And then coming to you, you probably help them speak up for their specific goals, but it's not automatic for some of these adults who didn't really have that, you know, like rah-rah, rah, advocate for yourself like we do now.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

Yeah. No, I think I think that that, I think that some people kind of have the experience of of, you know, the the nail that gets stuck, you know, the the nail that sticks up gets hammered down.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

And and for many people, like, you know, most autistic people don't mask because it's it's fun. Like they mask because it feels unsafe to do anything else. And and, you know, part of masking is to just hide a need that you have, to be like, oh, that support would really be useful, but I'm not gonna bring it up because what if I say, like, you know, if I'm, you know, my friends are trying to organize a social event at at a nightclub where the sensory environment is gonna be a night nightmare for me. If I say, hey, what if we went to the library instead? Like, well, are my friends gonna be like, that's weird. We don't want to be friends with you anymore. There's a risk. So maybe then I say, okay, I'm I'm gonna just stick with the nightclub. And I think that part of, again, going back to that elephant metaphor, I think in our past, we often learn that that the danger is just everywhere, or at least that the danger is unpredictable, that there's no way of knowing who's gonna be safe, who's not gonna be safe, who we can ask for help, who's gonna punish us for that. And so we just never ask anybody for help. We, and then I think that some of the learning is to be like, you know what, there are kind people and less kind people in this world. And you can, it's not perfect, but you can learn to kind of tell the difference and figure out, like, you know, sometimes I'll work with somebody and it'll be like, and they're like, oh, I'm really afraid that if I I, you know, I ask my friend for this, then they're gonna not want to be my friend anymore. And it's like, okay, well, has anybody else asked your friend for stuff? Oh, yeah, like, you know, so and so, so-and-so, so-and-so have all made requests and and did anything happen to them? No. And like, is your friend generally has your friend ever been mean? No. Okay, well, then I mean, it's possible that your friend is is secretly just waiting for somebody to unmask and then they'll be cruel, but probably we have a lot of evidence that supports the idea that this friend is probably safe. Whereas, you know, your boss at work that yells at everybody for being two minutes late, that person's probably not safe. And so that might not be a place where I remember that boss. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

You know, that part we all had one of those, right? Yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

And and so then so then the work becomes like, well, okay, maybe then you, you know, you get support somewhere else. And then maybe long term you think about could you find a workplace where you have a boss that could be, you know, better for you and and could you, you know, and and helping people believe that that's possible. Cause sometimes they they don't think that a better world is ever, you know. Like sometimes I'll I'll make a a a video on social media about like, oh, like, you know, you can make friends and then people come and be like, no, I can't. Like that's is just completely impossible. And I'm like, you know, I don't know them. They're just a comment, but but I don't think that's true for anybody. I think anybody, everybody has something valuable to offer to somebody else in this world.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

Yeah, agreed. And and I think that it all goes back to confidence, you know, in my opinion, you know, building up individuals' confidence, whether they're neurodivergent or not. And a lot of people just don't believe that they have the ability to get out of that workplace. I I've been there before. Or but what am I gonna do next, right? How am I gonna face it? And then when you bring in the autism and the social piece, it's even more complex because it's like, oh no, like maybe this is normal, these social uh you know interactions. Maybe it's normal for the person to behave like that. So more vulnerability probably present. Um, but I feel like a lot of the things you're speaking to are all about in a universal way, just having the confidence that you you can be unshackled. Like no matter what is going on in your life, you can take shackles off. It's takes it takes risk. And I guess there's a risk assessment that you have to do and pros and cons, but you definitely shouldn't be in a situation where you're unsafe. And I think that that's the vulnerability piece that I've seen, especially at that vulnerable teen and tween age, where you know, it's just so tough. And I've seen so many along the way just think the opposite. It's not even asking, it's they think they need to give. They think they need to give, give, give, and then they'll have a friend, like almost like buying a friend kind of situation, especially with the girls I've seen more than the boys, but that could just be my experience. And in reality, they're being taken advantage of, you know. So that's been very, you know, difficult to see. And I'm sure that that has just a ripple effect of mental health issues later down the line. So speaking of those mental health issues or challenges, I don't want to say issues, we all have issues, but mental health challenges, are there any specific ones that you see that are very much co-occurring with autism, uh, whether it's anxiety, depression, uh, anything else that you see turns up as an adult?

SPEAKER_01 34:58

Yeah. I mean, I I don't want to uh I know that the research shows a higher comorbidity between autism and and various mental health conditions. I don't I don't have those stats in my brain and I don't want to I don't want to just basically hallucinate and just make something up for you. And so so I think I think it does, it does, you know, co-occur. I think I think in my experience, I I see it most prominently, you know, linking up with you know depression and anxiety. Um, but I, you know, that that's my experience. I don't want to I don't want to say that that's those are the things that are most likely to to to go with autism across the whole population.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

Okay. But there is definitely a co-occurrence of a lot of um different forms of maybe anxiety, depression, just because of the fact that you're othered. Um, when you're othered, you can develop other other problems.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Or difficulties. Okay. So um now I I w I would love to take a dive into your version of love on the spectrum because you found love and it's not necessarily exactly a love story like that, but it's interesting because part of the confidence that I've seen along the way is partnership, right? Finding that partner and people feeling like oh, they're inadequate, just in general. I mean, the dating world now is just something else anyway. So it's just, you know, another level of complication. But you actually found love with someone who has ADHD, right? And so and so you were able to support each other in in those kinds of ways. You understand each other on a certain level, maybe then then maybe others wouldn't.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

Yeah, I would say so. I I think that it's I think that partially it's it's you know, which is what you want in every marriage, like you you have you have complementary, you know, strengths and weaknesses, right? Like there's there's some things that are, you know, much harder for my wife and much easier for me, and vice versa. And I think that autism, I I've heard, again, I don't, I'm not familiar with any research on this, but I've heard anecdotally that there's a lot of autism ADHD pairings because those things often, you know, it kind of makes sense how those how those conditions would would would feed into each other in a in a in a positive way. Um so I think that that's part of it. And then I think part of it is also the, you know, as we were talking about earlier, like the the the empathy and the graciousness, right? Like if if my, you know, if I tell my wife, you know, hey, that the the you know, the dishwasher needs to be unloaded and she says she'll do it, and then she forgets, like, I don't think like, oh my goodness, like she doesn't want to contribute, like she deliberately that's what I'm like that's what someone would say, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:15

That's what I'm saying. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

Yeah, like someone would potentially say that if they didn't have empathy, but I'm able to say, like, well, you know, like she has ADHD. And so like, chances are it just it just literally exited her brain. It was not her choice, it was not her fault. And and I can just be, you know, like, like, like kind to her about that, or or vice versa, if I say something that is, you know, awkward or unintentionally, you know, has a sharp edge that I didn't intend or something like that, then she can be like, okay, well, you know, instead of thinking, oh, Daniel probably means to say this hurtful thing, she can be like, wait a minute, probably this is an autism thing, and you know, this is just a communication issue, and I can clarify with him. Um, and so we we kind of we give each other a lot of grace, which I mean, I think is necessary in any kind of marriage. I can't imagine how anybody gets through life without a lot of, you know, empathy, forgiveness, giving each other the benefit of the doubt. But I think I think that having your own neurodivergence can make it easier for you to have empathy for for somebody else's neurodivergence.

SPEAKER_00 38:10

Yeah. I mean, I feel like, you know, I know opposites attract, they say, but I think there's something to be said about people who have things in common that can understand each other, a level of understanding to be understood. I feel like it's just something that people sometimes wait a whole lifetime to really feel like somebody understands them. So it's so great that you guys understand each other and that you are not gonna tell your wife, I can't believe you forgot to do that. But I get both sides. I understand that people do get frustrated. It's not always so easy. I'm sure it helps that you're a psychologist as well, because I'm sure you bring that into the home, right?

SPEAKER_01 38:43

It's it's funny because my my my best friend is also a psychologist. And so, like, our disagreements must sound just like so strange to somebody else because it's like, you know, I hear you that you this, but then the way that it makes me feel is this. And like, oh, I thank you for sharing that with me. And like, and I mean, you know, it's not like we're we're like robots, right? Like we have all of the feelings, like, you know, my best friend has done stuff that that's made me mad or you know, let me down, but you know, vice versa. But but it's just that it's we're able to and and keep the lines of communication open. And instead of being like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna hurt you, I'm gonna say something mean, we can we can be like, I'm gonna communicate, I'm gonna be understood by you, you can be understood by me. And then when we get to the other side of that, then usually we can find a solution, we can resolve the problem. And you know, my wife and I, it's it's the same thing. We have, you know, like it's not that it's not that when my wife doesn't unload the dishwasher that I'm just like, oh, la de dah, like sometimes that can be frustrating or irritating or whatever. Of course. But but it but I can be like, I can express my irritation to her, not not in a way of trying to hurt her, but in a way of expressing a need, like, hey, I have this feeling now. Can we take care of that? Like, and and then she, of course, wants to and and finds a way to make me feel better.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

I feel like that kind of language though is so important in general because I think that so many times, and I'm guilty of it because I'm human, but it's just so easy to just with a friend or a you know, a significant other or a child, it's so easy to just say, like, why would you do something like that? You know, what were you thinking? You know, and everyone is just frustrated and upset, and nobody's actually saying, Well, you know, when you do that, like I kind of, you know, kind of makes me feel uncomfortable or kind of makes me feel like annoyed, like you don't care. You know, like I feel like there needs to be more of that in our society of people saying, like, actually, like I validate it, like I'm validating you, right? But at the same time, like I'm also letting you know that, you know, this is how I feel. No, you, you know, I don't think people should be necessarily pushovers, right? And not expresses, but it's the way you express, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

Yeah. I try to, I believe this metaphor into most of my talks because I just, I just feel like this is so powerful. I learned it from one of my supervisors when I was in training. But it's it's this idea of compassionate curiosity, which is like, you know, if you adopt a dog and you bring the dog home and then you're like, oh, how cute, but then the dog chews up your socks. You don't assume that the dog is evil or wants you to suffer, right? Like if you know anything about dogs, you're like, well, this is a good dog. And so, like, so then your your understanding, it starts from the assumption of this is a good dog. You're not like, well, maybe the dog hates me. No, like like it's a good dog. And then you that's the compassion part. And then the curiosity is why would a good dog do a bad thing? So you are you are starting your questioning from that assumption that they're good. And then of course it leads you to like, well, maybe I didn't play with them all day, or you know, like, and I if I just did that, then they'd stop chewing up my socks. So you can still solve the problem. You don't have to just accept, like, oh, well, I can't ever be mad at my dog or be upset that they chew up my socks. No, like you can still be, you know, you can still want to solve the problem, but you can solve the problem in a way that doesn't impact your love and affection for the dog. And the same thing is true of, you know, any relationship, right? Like if if my, you know, like if I'm late to a hangout with my best friend, which is a thing that happens sometimes, you know, he doesn't have to be like, oh, does Daniel hate me or or doesn't care about the friendship? He can be like, all right, why would somebody who loves me, who's my best friend, still be late for our hangout? And then, you know, we can figure out a solution together based off of that so that he still gets me to show up on time, but but without me feeling like I'm I'm bad.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

And also I feel like all of us have our triggers. Like, for example, lateness for me. I just grew up in a family that was very prompt. My dad was born in Germany. I feel like that may have contributed to his, he was actually early to things and not even prompt. So this this chronic late thing, I know for me is like a trigger because I feel like, wait, why is someone like taking time away from me? I'm waiting for them, you know? But I feel like you made me think about it in a different way that, okay, there this is a person that runs late for a variety of different re reasons. Their intention probably isn't to take time away from me, but let's try to figure out like what actually is going on, right? Like that compassionate curiosity, which is hard in the moment when it was, you know, the 15th or 1500th time that, you know, if they're a close friend that, you know, they're running so late and you're like, wait, what's going on? So, but you know what? One one thing I learned about that is you can also meet people where they are. So I started running late. Now, as a psychologist, that may not be the right thing.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

I think I think that that's honestly a good, like it I I think that the the goal of like a boundary is is not to like punish somebody, it's to be like, what what can I do to still want to be in a relationship with this person? And so if like they're gonna run late every time and you're gonna show up on time, and then every time you're gonna be like stressed out and like I don't even want to hang out with you anymore because I'm stressed out, then okay, well, and that's not gonna protect the relationship. Whereas if you say, you know what, like I'm gonna be late too, like whatever, like then then it it, you know, it's maybe not the ideal situation of them just being able to get there on time, but it's it's actually an investment in the relationship. It allows you to say, all right, this is what I need to do to be to be okay with this. And and I think that finding those answers oftentimes is the way forward. And like, I mean, if if you're in a relationship where like you you constantly have to do that and you can't like the other person never wants to do anything to to meet you halfway, then then you know, that's an indication that maybe that person's not great for you. But in general, you know, we're all we're all just doing our best out here. And being willing to give grace to one another, I think it that's I I give it my my seal of approval as a psychologist.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

Okay, great. So that's something I can work on. And setting up boundaries, I know is key in general. And I'm sure you work on that with your patients who a lot of people violate boundaries, but of course, when it comes to our autistic individuals, their their boundaries sometimes are even more violated, I find, because they don't know how to always socially say, hey, no, advocate. No, this is not gonna be okay. Speaking of which, all of this relates to social, all of this relates to a lot of us in terms of let the getting back to that universal social piece and how you started social skills.com, right? And so it was for improvement for everybody. And you bring it now into work in terms of workplaces where you come into workplaces and you help people with interpersonal skills, right, in different corporations and and things like that. And what are you finding is like the biggest breakdown as society evolves in terms of the social or communication breakdowns that are occurring in these workplaces? Because I know a lot of workplaces are very difficult to work in. Um, I actually only know like a couple of people that are like really thrilled about their work environment right now. And that's really unfortunate.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

Yeah. Well, so so I I I speak on a variety of things in in the workplace. The the most common and popular one that I do is on is on neurodiversity because it's like, you know, we can we can talk to autistic people and be like, here's what you can do to adapt to this environment. But it's much better if we can talk to everybody else and say, how can we make an environment that autistic people don't have to struggle so much in? But but I do, to your point, like I also speak on, you know, burnout in the workplace and loneliness in the workplace because I think a lot of people are bringing that into work. And as you mentioned, it's hard to find workplaces that people feel like this is really working well for me. And it's it, I think that partially it's because there's stuff in in in people's lives more generally that isn't working for them. Like I think that with the loneliness piece, workplaces actually have a really unique opportunity because it's one of the few places left where where you gather on a regular basis with people that you are kind of different than you, that are multi-generational, that you don't already know. Like so often, you know, people nowadays they just spend all their time by themselves on a screen, you know, with like the same few people that they already know. And and so then they wonder why they're lonely. And it's because you're not actually putting yourself in a position to make friends. And, you know, the workplace, it's not the ideal social environment because you're you're there to do a job and it's your career, but it is an opportunity to build real connection. And, you know, the organizations where the connections are stronger, where people feel like they belong, where people feel like they have a friend at work, people are do better work. And so I try to kind of make the case for like, look, if you set up your organization such that it can help people feel less lonely, you're not only helping people that need a place to connect, but you're helping the business be more successful as well, because people are going to work better for you if, you know, if they can make friends at the office.

SPEAKER_00 46:52

Right. And it's all about acceptance, just in all forms, accepting people for who they are, coming to the workplace and understanding that you don't need the exact same values or the exact same outlook on things in order to be friends with each other. I think the most, I mean, damaging thing in my opinion, but correct me if I'm wrong, is that in some workplaces it becomes like a culture of uh clicks, right? Clicks form, right? And then again, we get into that thing of being othered, right? And then the motivation declines, I feel like, for a lot of people who are like outside of the click, right? And then if you're inside the click, you may not last in the click, right? So it's kind of like it's a human nature to form groups, but I feel like in the workplace, especially, you don't want to feel like you're doing your work alone.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

Yeah, no, exactly. And yeah, I think a lot of times organizations, it's it's the clicks. And so either you're just on the outside and then you're like, well, why would I do my best work for a team that doesn't really want me here? Or in order to get into the click, you have to like pretend to be somebody that you're not.

SPEAKER_02 47:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

Um, and then that's its own sort of problem because that like that that that in some ways deepens loneliness because you're you're you're it doesn't actually feel like connection if you're not showing up as your real self.

SPEAKER_00 47:59

Yeah, definitely. Then you're just faking it. And I feel like that's why I haven't been really good at maintaining groups in general. Like I'm more of a someone who hangs out with people one-on-one or in a group of two or three. And I always found whenever I wasn't even in a group chat, I would have to just like either mute it or like end up leaving just because there are so many things going on at the same time. And it's so easy to feel like either misunderstood by the group or maybe the group is talking to each other and you feel like on the outskirts. I don't know. I always question myself like why I wasn't really much of a group person, but I guess I just like different types of people that maybe don't blend together. And I can't really fake it because I grew up in Brooklyn and we're very real over there. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

I what I'd also say is that the the the the structure of the group matters a lot. And so sometimes like like if it if the group is just unstructured, right? It's like, oh, like we all just go out for drinks afterwards. Well then that that can make it really hard to be like, well, where like how do I make a connection?

SPEAKER_02 48:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 48:58

Whereas if it's like, oh, like we're we're all, you know, but like it's habitat for humanity and we're all gonna be building a house together and then we're gonna be talking about, hey, bring some more sawdust over here, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

I don't know how to build a house, but like no, I mean, don't give me even a hammer, I don't even know how to use a hammer or something.

SPEAKER_01 49:13

Okay, well, then maybe, you know, or maybe, maybe, you know, you go to a board game club or you go to like a trivia night at at the bar where you're you you join a team, like those kinds of experiences where there's more structure, um, that can make it a lot easier because there's sort of like a a path getting you into the connection. And I think that that's especially critical for for autistic people, but really, really for everybody. Like, I don't I don't know how anybody makes friends just go into a cocktail hour and it's just completely unstructured and you just have to talk to folks. It having them having some guardrails guiding you towards the connection oftentimes makes it much easier for you to figure out if if if there's a chance for connection there.

SPEAKER_00 49:48

Right. And to your point, in these workplaces, you find that um with the clicks or or with people trying to get into someone's favor, it sometimes or always leads into this non-authentic connection. And non-authentic connection is not healthy in a workplace or in any other place because then it's not real, and then people are not feeling connected, right, in the same kind of way. And you're trying to bring people together in a in a in an authentic way, right? Not just like, okay, just guys get together, we're collaborate, that's it, right? It's more of how do you get people to stay connected, how do you motivate them? And culture, I guess, is created by, I guess it's top-down usually, right? And so you help the uh the ones on top, right, really get to the ones who are downstream.

SPEAKER_01 50:32

Yeah, it really, I mean, like like the the critical ingredient is is safety, right? Like, can I bring my real self here and and not be punished for it? Um, you know, I I remember talking to a guy who was a Google engineer, so you know, very successful, very capable dude. I know those. Yeah, they're really great. No, but but you know, also very autistic. And and at a previous workplace, so not Google, but a previous one, he had gone to his manager and asked for some support and said, like, hey, I'm autistic. And then the manager was like, No, I don't think you are. Like, you don't seem autistic to me. And then, like, you know, not only didn't give him the support, but also like punish the guy for like you know, like never treated the guy the same way after that point. And so then he learned, okay, well, this isn't safe. Like, why would I bring my real self here? And that, like, you know, most autistic people have had experiences like that where we we take the mask off in some way, uh, we bring more of our real self into the interaction, and then somebody's like, ooh, like I don't want that, or like you know, and so it feels safer to just mask always keep that mask on. Yeah. And and again, even if you're not autistic, I think that same principle can play out, right?

SPEAKER_00 51:34

Like, yeah, you want to feel safe. Yeah, whatever it takes.

SPEAKER_01 51:37

Yeah, the the the more authentic versions of yourself. And and so I think that the workplace, it's yeah, it requires leadership asking the question of like, what can we do to to encourage a culture of safe of safety, to reward people for bringing their real selves, for cutting down on, you know, workplace bullying or clicks or you know, or or setting up community opportunities for people to make friends. Like those are those are intentional strategic decisions that that workplaces can make to make it easier. So it's not, it's not to say that you can never be safe unmasking at work. You just need you just need the environment to be correct.

SPEAKER_00 52:10

Yeah. And I think also social opportunities at work. I think that so I've worked in numerous places within the education system, and I found that some leaders are more uh aware of this and set up a lot of social situations where people can mingle and also make sure that people mingle with each other that are wouldn't normally can communicate with each other just by the way that they set it up in terms of grouping people at an event. And then there are some places that just have no social gatherings at all. And basically it's like come into work, do your job, and leave. And then if you make a couple of friends, you make a couple of friends, great. Um, but I I find that that's not helpful in terms of the motivation piece because, like you said, connection is everything everywhere and in the workplace, especially, which is why it's important to have people like you speaking on that to all these corporations. So so basically we've touched upon a bunch of things, right? And from we've gone from uh from just the, you know, even just going back to where you started off with, and then just in terms of the s you know, psychological effects of everything to your love store to this, you know, the the impact that you're making on the workplace. Is there any one piece of advice that you can give to people who are listening about social communication in terms of like where people might be getting it wrong or missing the mark? Like, for example, why why is it so difficult to maintain interpersonal relationships, whether you're neurodivergent or not? Like, is there a piece of advice you can give that can help people have better interpersonal skills in general? I know that's a big one. That's a really big yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

But it's a great question. And I think that the biggest this is obviously a generalization. Yeah, and that's okay. Yeah, it's not always gonna be true. And I'll I'll I'll maybe explain a little bit of the nuance, but the the biggest, biggest thing that I think I would want people to to to take away is understanding that that that how do I say it? It's rare for you to actually be failing in the way that you think that you're failing. I think it's it's very common, especially if you've experienced rejection in the past or whatever, for you to walk away from a social interaction and think, I screwed that up. I was so awkward, I did that. Like, but then but then in reality, all of these things that you're beating yourself up for, the other person forgot about them two minutes after it happened, right? There, there was a like a discussion that I read about online where somebody was like, I went to a party in college with with some friends, and we thought it'd be hilarious to like douse ourselves with water and show up to the party sopping wet. And we were like, everybody was gonna be like, Whoa, you're so wet. And nobody commented on it. Nobody even noticed that they were just head to toe drenched and they showed up to the party. And it's like, if people didn't notice that, then they're probably not gonna notice the fact that maybe you told a joke that wasn't that funny or you rambled on for a little bit too long. And so, like, I think that realizing that can sometimes give you courage to try again and to say, like, well, maybe, maybe that went better than I I thought it did. And obviously, there's things that you can do that really are bad, right? If you go to a party and you tell a bunch of racist jokes, well, then yeah, you're probably not gonna be invited back to that party. Right. That's like what I often try to tell people is to put yourself in the other person's shoes and be like, if the other person did this to you, would you be upset? And and chances are if somebody like, if it's like, oh, well, the other person told a joke and it wasn't that funny, would you be upset with that person? No, like like who who was right?

SPEAKER_02 55:28

Right.

SPEAKER_01 55:28

And so then that can give you the courage to say, I'm gonna try again. And and then I think also realizing that like everybody's having a hard time with this. You know, everybody feels overwhelmed, everybody feels stretched too thin, everybody feels, you know, lonely to differing degrees. And so the fact that maybe, you know, this person didn't reach out to you right away, that I mean, maybe that means they're not interested in you, but it might also mean that they just didn't have the spoons for today. And it might be worth giving them another try and and seeing what's there. Because yeah, again, if if if they're not interested, then you'll try a couple of times and it'll become abundantly clear that they're not interested. But what if they're just going through a hard time? What if they're just overwhelmed? What if they would really appreciate a friend? And the fact that you knocked twice or three times instead of giving up after just once means the difference between making that friendship or not.

SPEAKER_00 56:13

You know, it you made me think of something somebody once told me. Of course, a lot of things I've said have been told by other people that those are the best nuggets, right? But um about how it's, you know, people need to learn about how it's not about a first impression, it's about a second impression almost. Like the first impression is so hard for us because as people, I feel like we put so much emphasis on that and other people place emphasis on the first thing that happened, the first interaction. And it would be so wonderful if we always gave everybody a second impression and just didn't think about that first impression because there are so many things we can judge people by just automatically, I feel like, right, as people we just internally judge. Um, but that second impression can change things to your point of, you know, people do show more grace. And it's interesting also because I remember um not re it was maybe like a week and a half ago. I was in the elevator of my where I live here in New York City in my apartment building, and there was someone who had just finished an interview, I guess remotely, because they were in the elevator going down. And uh this kid, kid, you know, these days it's a kid. I don't know, he must have been like maybe 20 or something. And I guess he just saw somebody who maybe I looked like a friendly face or something, and he just started saying, I just had this interview, I just bombed it, it was so terrible. And I said to him, Actually, like maybe it was the best interview, and you don't realize it because what you perceive to be bad, I had to learn this the hard way too. The other people didn't even notice. And he's like, Well, what do you mean? Like, what if it's that like I didn't I actually answered questions incorrectly? You know, this is for a tech job, and I answered, you know, and I said, Well, maybe then they'll like you even more because you have a learning curve and you're not a no-it-all, you know? And so he's like, Oh, really? And so I feel like, yeah, I think there's a lot of insecurity that we're all holding on to, but I guess your point is building up confidence is really important because that's what allows interpersonal relationships to really thrive, right?

SPEAKER_01 58:03

Yeah, I I think it's it's people like you find success by by rolling the dice and trying over and over. And it's not it's not gonna happen every time, right? Like not every person that you strike up a conversation with will become your new best friend, but you're not gonna find your new best friend unless you're willing to strike up conversations. And when we when we beat ourselves up, it makes it really hard to try because the failure feels so awful. We're like, oh, I, you know, I did that interview and I bombed it, and now I just have to go be depressed for a week. Well, you're not gonna do very many interviews. And you know, maybe you're not gonna get that job in the first interview, but maybe, you know, the second or the fifth or the tenth is gonna lead you to the job, or the you know, second, fifth, tenth party you go to is gonna lead you to a new friend group. And and like being willing to say, like, you know what, even if I wasn't perfect, I that that still went okay and that was worth doing. I think that gives you the resilience to keep going. And and I think it's also important to recognize that like you get to fill like you get to choose who you have in your life. And and if you're worried that, oh my goodness, well, I bombed that first impression and and they're they're never going to want to talk to me again, then what you've done is you've said, all right, well, maybe this person that that judges somebody like that and makes a very fast, you know, superficial judgment and and decides that I'm not worth anything because I I told one joke that didn't go well. Well, do I actually want that person in my life? Or would I rather have people in my life who are a little bit more patient, a little bit more curious, who are willing to have a second conversation with me, even if the first one wasn't perfect? And chances are you're gonna be much better off filling your life with the people who are willing to give you a little bit of of grace. And so it's not actually a a loss if if some superficial judgmental person doesn't want to be your friend, they they probably weren't gonna be a good friend to you anyway.

SPEAKER_00 59:42

Yeah, and in the workplace we find this a lot too, right? But sometimes you can't choose your bosses. You could only set boundaries and see how long you can last in a toxic environment, which unfortunately, I mean, you're as a psychologist, it's it's hard for uh to last in one of those. Um, but thank you so much, Dr. Wenler, Dr. Dan, for everything. I think you shared so much in terms of just confidence, resilience, but also just mental health and us just feeling safe. I think safety is really a really a big message here that is a big takeaway. And I know that the listeners are gonna really just appreciate everything that you shared from your own perspective as growing up with autism, but also just in terms of social as a whole. Like it's the building block of everything. And and as a society, we need to do better at this. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:27

I mean, people talk about the loneliness epidemic. I think it's one of the biggest challenges of our time and everything. You know, my grandma used to say, if you want to have a friend, you gotta be a friend. And I like to encourage people like every time that you're courageous and go and do a social thing, you're not just helping to solve loneliness for you, you're helping to solve loneliness for the person that you might meet.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:46

That's such a great point. I feel like it reminds me of something from Winnie the Pooh. I don't know why, but Winnie the Pooh said something. I don't know. For some reason it came to my mind. See, we all have uh little moments. But anyway, so uh, but thank you so much again for being here. Where can everybody reach you, follow you? I know that you have a website, but you also have an Instagram and you also have bookings in in terms of workplaces.

unknown 1:01:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:10

So if I mean if people go to Daniel Wellner.com, then they can learn about me, get links everywhere. But otherwise, like I'm on most social media platforms. So if you look for my name or you look for Dr. Dan, autistic psychologist, you know, I'm gonna pop up and you can follow me on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, uh, wherever. Um, and then yeah, I do I do a lot of you know, keynote talks, corporate trainings. So, you know, if you happen to be running an autism conference or if your workplace needs somebody to come in and talk about neurodiversity, uh, there's information on my website about the the kind of speaking that I do as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:38

Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:39

Also, I have some books on Amazon. Also, I have a couple of books on Amazon. They're a little bit older, but but I I do have some books if you want even more of them. Wait, the what do you mean, older books from so yeah, so so I have uh improve your social skills.com. I turned it into a book. And so the book Improve Your Social Skills is available on Amazon. I have another social skills book called Level Up Your Social Life, but those are both written, you know, almost 10 years ago. Um, and then I have a newer book called Neurodiversity and the Myth of Normal that is is co-authored. That one I saw, yeah. Yeah, it's it's an audible exclusive, so you can only listen to it on audiobooks. So my most my most recent accessible stuff is all the social media. But if you really want all the Dr. Dan you can get in your life, then you can go uh look at look at uh my Amazon page and and uh take your pick.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:22

Amazing. I think after this I'm gonna have to book a therapy session with you. Some things I need to break down. But yeah, thank you so much again for being here. Um, it was just so lovely to have you.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:32

Yeah, sharing it with a real pleasure. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:35

Thanks for joining us on Unmasking Social, where we neurodiverse advocates and those who support them. Explore how real friendship begins when we start showing up as ourselves. If today's episode resonated with you, please share it with a friend, leave a review, or follow me for more conversations that provide information on neurodivergent ways of thinking, communicating, and connecting. Until next time, keep staying social.