49: Debunking the Clumsiness Myth: Dyspraxia Is So Much More With Rosemary Richings

Are we mistaking dyspraxia for mere clumsiness? Absolutely. But the real truth? Dyspraxia is a profound neurological difference that affects million, yet it's misunderstood, overlooked, and often dismissed. Rosemary Richings, a fierce advocate diagnosed with dyspraxia at four, exposes the myths and reveals what truly lies beneath the surface - how sensory overload, stress, and neurodivergence create chaos in motion.

This episode is a rallying cry for anyone who’s ever felt othered, misundersood or left behind because systems aren’t built for neurodivergent minds. Rosemary shares her journey from childhood diagnosis in Toronto to influencing education, workplaces, and communities across the globe.

To connect with Rosemary and follow her work:

https://rosemaryrichings.com/

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1839972696?ref_=cm_sw_r_ffobk_cp_ud_dp_C4NCRAJE0HW0HXZSPPZC&bestFormat=true

https://www.bloomsbury.com/in/studying-with-dyspraxia-9781350524651/

https://www.youtube.com/@DyspraxicRosieWrites

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome to Unmasking Social, where we talk about building real friendships and meaningful connections without masking who we truly are. I'm your host, Sharon Baum, a speech and language pathologist with an expertise in social thinking and how it relates to autism and ADHD. Specifically with our teams and tweets. Let's dive in.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Hello everybody. On today's episode, we demystify something that is really misunderstood. Dyspraxia. This is something that so many people attribute to just merely clumsiness. But on today's podcast, we get really knee-deep into this and expose what dyspraxia truly is, how one can advocate for themselves if they do truly have dyspraxia. And what we can do as a society to understand dyspraxia and elevate those who have struggles with dyspraxia. We have Rosemary Richings on the podcast who's going to speak to this and really explain to us about what dyspraxia is, what it isn't, how it impacts people, and really just tell us about what we must know so that we can help people who are who actually have dyspraxia. So, Rosemary, thank you so much for being here today. Yeah, thanks so much for the invite. So you are recording now with me on July 1st, which is Disability Pride Month. So I'm, I feel like the timing is just great because this is a time where we really should shed light on things that are misunderstood. So can you tell us a little bit about your journey through dyspraxia and how you became a voice for individuals with dyspraxia in writing and just in advocacy in general?

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Yeah, so I was diagnosed with dyspraxia very young. I was only four years old. I was diagnosed in Toronto, Canada at the Sick Children's Hospital, now called Sick Kids. And uh the thing was that there was really not much known at the time, even more so. There was like not really anything in terms of charities or anything like that. So I grew up watching my parents really, really struggle with uh trying to find the right forms of support. For the longest time, I wanted to write a book about it because I found that the best way to explain dyspraxia was through storytelling and stories from my own life. And then I met a number of advocates in the UK during COVID times, and that really increased the amount of work I was doing and the amount of involvement in the community I was doing. Amazing people like the Dyspraxia magazine, run by a Brit named Crystal Shaw. And since then I've been really involved in trying to increase access to resources, and that's become a huge part of my mandate.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

It is great to hear that you did have people behind you. Your parents were behind you, they were trying really hard to understand how to support you, which is so critical. At the same time, the resources were lacking. So it's just so hard as a parent to kind of work through this, but then not have access to the resources which now you're providing for parents so that they can have access. Now, I just want to start off with a myth. A lot of people believe that dyspraxia is being clumsy. And but I still recall a time, I was in Australia actually, with a friend and an occupational therapist uh who was a friend of the friend. And I remember I'm I'm a clumsy person. And I remember her just telling me straight out, yeah, you have dyspraxia. And I thought to myself, oh, maybe I do. And then I looked it up, I researched it, and I said, wow, like this person doesn't really know enough about this to be sending messages to people that, okay, you're clumsy, that's why you're dyspraxic, right? The same thing with so many other conditions. Do you want to debunk that myth?

SPEAKER_02 4:15

Yeah, I mean, this is a very common question for a reason. I think the clumsiness is the bit that is on the surface because it's what you do see, but it's the cause I feel isn't talking, the part that's talked about enough. And the fact that it's from being stressed out, having a tough day, being in surroundings where you've got too much going on in terms of people telling you what to do, too many crowds, too much noise, too many stressors and bits of information to process that lead to that clumsiness. And I think all we see is clumsiness in terms of, oh yes, we've all tripped and fall over things, but the how is the important differentiator.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

And so when you say the how, it's it's that the sensory input is coming in or the sensory overload and all the stimuli that you're receiving into your brain throughout the day is causing this movement disorder.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

So yeah, the that's absolutely true. I would the thing that I often use to describe the experience of it is that it's the experience of having a signal cross. I use the analogy of old school dial-up internet and the fact that the signal has processed that you have to go to a certain tab or do a certain action, but something along the way doesn't get to the final action. Something gets lost on the way in terms of the movement part of things.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

That's a very good analogy. I remember those days of dial-up. I remember fighting with my siblings to get off the internet. Those were not fun days, but um, I'm just having a moment of nostalgia. But in terms of that, it's interesting because apraxia, which because that's more of my lane, even though dyspraxia should be my lane too at this point, but is also where the signals are not being met. And apraxia and dyspraxia, I know there's an overlap for those listening. By now, you know what apraxia is, which is a speech motor programming uh disability, where basically your brain is not getting the signals to use what you need to actually speak. And so therefore you make a lot of errors and a lot of inconsistent errors. And so when I think of apraxia, I think of dyspraxia too. And I've noticed that sometimes this co-occurs. Do you find that there is a co-occurrence between the two because of the signals being sent also just in the upper body as well?

SPEAKER_02 6:44

I find that yes, it can co-occur, but it really di depends on the individual. My cases of this are much more stress and excitement based, whereas there is much more intense degrees of it in terms of like actually having a degree of what you're describing. And for instance, I have a younger dyspraxic anapraxic friend in Toronto, and we have had lots of conversations with her about how she has a little bit of both in terms of hypraxia and dyspraxia from the symptom point of view. But yeah, that's really it, it depends question.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Right. Depends on the context and the situation and the person. But I've noticed a little overlap just from my own observations. I'm I'm not researching it, but uh that sometimes the two can co-occur, just like autism and dyspraxia are very much in line with each other. Um, I just remember working with teens and tweens who had dyspraxia in conjunction with autism, but again, we're not diagnosed with it. And this is where the thing is missing, right? This is where the piece is missing. I I'm almost frustrated with my allied professions and my own profession, which is why are we not having enough talk about this? Like, what is going on that people are over like overlooking this?

SPEAKER_02 8:03

I think it too often gets confused somewhere along the way with the diagnosis criteria with other forms of neurodivergences. And that is where the problem is is occurring. And I hear even amongst like the patient community, uh, when I talk to some within the autism community, the dyslexia community, et cetera, that it's people have that sense of confusion of maybe this is my autism, maybe me, this is my 80. And I think that's where a lot of the problem is occurring with the take boxes for the diagnosis criteria.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Yeah. So it's hard to tease apart essentially because sometimes it's just overlapping with too many other things, and then teasing it apart becomes really complex. So definitely. Yeah. That's yeah, I feel like that happens a lot with a lot of things, you know, that um they become sidelined, like kind of like almost like a side dish, but to the, but but it's such a big prominent thing that affects people and it affects many people. And like what is the diagnosis criteria or the like fundamental pieces of dyspraxia for those who aren't trained in it but can look out for signs? Like, what signs should we be looking for?

SPEAKER_02 9:14

Primarily it's around motor skills. So think things like the act of getting dress, the act of doing DIY household tasks, the act of doing arts and crafts activities, factors like that, but also the movement part. So running, doing a dance move, things like that, and a clear challenge around that. And often what the professionals are looking for is that it's that not in the context of cerebral palsy, another condition that often gets confused with potentially being dyspraxia, which was interesting. I talked to a woman who had cerebral palsy, and uh it was very interesting that under the British system, they asked her first if it was dyspraxia, because in many cases you are still looking for an element of movement coordination.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Yeah, that is interesting. And even before the podcast, you mentioned that it's making its way more to America now. I guess there are differences in terms of where it's more noticeable or acknowledged or understood. The US, I feel like, maybe, I mean, I'm just thinking about New York City, may be a little bit behind London. I feel like that's usually not the first question, right? When there's a movement issue, I don't I feel like um a lot of times the first question isn't do you have that's just something that maybe it's but the good news is that it's coming our way. And I think there's more awareness. I'm having you on the podcast here in New York City. And so I, you know, I feel like it's coming our way. There is an understanding that's being built up. So if we circle back to your journey through living with dyspraxia and your family trying to get the supports, when you got the supports, like what helped you the most?

SPEAKER_02 11:00

Me the most was having the language. I think the common debate is why get a diagnosis. And that is the big part of the puzzle that's really, really important. It's being able to say that like the causes of how you behave, how you interact with people, how you learn are to do with something that is around how your brain is wired, rather than just purely something that you should have some level of control over in some way. And I think that frees people, especially people who are diagnosed late in life. And I think for me, the big privilege of being diagnosed early is at least I had the language. And then after that, most of what I had to address was how do I convince special education professionals? How do I help my peers understand? And it's impossible to do that if you don't have the language and you don't have the clarity. And yes, I was diagnosed young. I mean, I was only four, so it took a while to understand that I was quote unquote different in any way. But once I did, I could at least start to be more self-sufficient with that process.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Language is so pivotal, and I'm not just saying this because I'm a speech pathologist, but communication is really the essence of everything, but understanding the brain and how it works. And I find that too often individuals are given a diagnosis and then sent on their way. And it's kind of backwards because the individual needs to know how the brain works, what's going on in their brain, what's not working, what are some things that can be improved, what are some things that you may have to live with, you know, in kind of throughout your life, and but but still be able to manage because again, a lot of these things are a lifetime, right? These things are not they don't just go away. We're not wishing it away. So I think it's great that you got that early intervention piece, which some people just don't have, and then they don't have the language to express or advocate, you know, and that's where your advocacy piece comes in, where you didn't just stop at just having this. You just there was a fire within you that said, I need to advocate on behalf of this. And so what was that fire within you that said, I gotta speak up, I gotta write books, I gotta write articles, I have to go to conventions, I have to speak to people.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

Yeah, I would say that for me, it was around the time of university. I that was really the first time I was on my own with having to describe what my advocacy needs are, and that was very hard. And I felt like I had that language piece, but in some regards I still had lots to learn. And I think since then that became a crucial goal of mine because I was starting to meet neurodivergent and disabled people, more broadly speaking, who were sent into their university's accessibility services office and hearing, oh, what are your support needs? And they were going, I don't know. I don't know if I need that thing. And that is often the missing piece. That's why with my latest book, Studying with Dyspraxia, I had a whole section set up around practicing with language, practicing with my accessibility needs are X, Y, and Z, and looking into different resources at your disposal, different documentation in your past in order to try and understand what that looks like for you.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Yeah, I mean, with the disability service offices, it could be quite a journey. Just because uh I know many students transitioned to college and they have these accommodations in high school and then they go to college, and some are great. Some have really a lot of knowledge about special education, but some, it seems like an uphill battle where they have to bring in advocates to support them because the disability service office just doesn't have the tools or they're not equipped necessarily in college. It's like university or university as as we call it in Canada. But it's interesting because I think like not one size fits all for anything. And so for dyspraxia, it's the same. And so not every person is gonna need the same supports. But what are some of the supports that you found to be helpful at the university level or even beyond that?

SPEAKER_02 15:29

Things like having extra time, having alternate ways to write and communicate. That's a big piece of with my latest book, what I try to encourage people to do, to explore alternate ways you can write an essay or take notes or do an examination and consider where that might be helpful for you versus just sit sitting down and typing or writing notes or writing out your essay, or being in the same classroom as your classmates and writing the exam. It's that act of quiet and extra time and having a way of getting into the path of your own head, of your thoughts, quicker than what you can naturally do when you just sort of think over, I want to write this, whatever, and it looks like this in my head.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

How does that look like in writing? Right. So the digital world, for example, right? So that's a whole new set of uh tools that need to be used. But I can imagine that there needs to be sometimes alternative devices that need to be used or uh accommodations in that lens because you're using a keyboard a lot of times, right? You're using uh so many other different things just just to post things or write things. Have universities welcomed them in as much in terms of giving I see your face. You're like not it depends. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

It depends. That's the thing. You're so reliant on people's biases about disabilities, certain groups, things like that. That it's a bit of a gamble. You you'll either get someone that says, okay, I'm fine with that, that's okay, or or they'll have some really old school way of thinking about like oh, you should just be evaluated the same way as everyone else. Why would I give you something different? And that is a big part of what you have to juggle to.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

And so you're such an advocate, you work to support all these individuals, and you're also trying to change the perspective in special education on this, right? So, yeah, in terms of that, can you speak more to that in terms of how you're kind of doing that advocacy work in special education?

SPEAKER_02 17:45

In special education, that language piece is a core part of things. Dealing with the what if you have somebody that read some really right-wing take on special education disability and oh, I should treat just treat people the the same no matter what? What if you what if you need to be having an alternate environment and you have trouble keeping track of deadlines? How can you make sure that you're on task? All these little ways of considering like your brain versus the unpredictability of other people.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

The unpredictability of other people, meaning that things are gonna change up on you based on the situation you're in? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

Situation you're in, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Yeah. Okay. Oh, so that's a tough one because, right, it's everything's so unpredictable, and then you have to be flexible with the changes, and then you need the support at the same time. Now, through this advocacy work and publishing these books and doing all this work that you're doing, which kudos to you, what is like one of your proudest moments of something that you've done that you feel like really changed maybe the way people might look at this or just change their view?

SPEAKER_02 19:03

I think definitely some of the most rewarding I've done is I've done a lot of public speaking talks where I have gone and talked to quite corporate workplaces that many, many years ago, when I was just starting out, would not even consider my way of thinking and my skill set as valuable, and going in and showing them that yeah, there is more than one way of showing up at work. And I think that has been an extraordinary accomplishment for me. And to challenge ways of thinking and business cultures and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

That's amazing. So you're tackling the universities, you're tackling the work culture, you're tackling the younger students. It's basically like you're just trying to help everybody out. And I feel like there is, there still are so many misconceptions about neurodivergence from autism to ADHD to dyslexia to dyspraxia in the in the world, in the workforce, in the corporate environments. And it's people like you that are able to actually train these individuals and understand that, you know, the way people come to the workplace is gonna look different. Have the people that you've worked with, have they received that message well? Have they applied it? Do you notice that work culture, maybe in Toronto or wherever you may be, is actually understanding, hey, individuals with dyspraxia may need a different kind of approach when they come to work?

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Yeah, I think people come away with it really thinking of that and thinking of the the fact that, yeah, maybe they could do their meetings in in more than one way of communicating. Yeah, maybe like they do need to give someone a little bit of time. And I think the important piece that often happens is people hear accessibility, they hear neuroinclusion and they go, I'm gonna have to spend a whole bunch of money. I'm gonna have to spend a whole bunch of time. And then suddenly they hear, oh, these are all things that this person could bring into their environment. These are all things that will take me less than five minutes, these are all things that are free forms of technology with minimal learning curve.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Yeah, there are so many things that can be done for free. It's it's it's so crazy how people think that there's such so much money that needs to be funded into accessibility, just extra time. Does that cost you any money? No. Or just breaks in between. You know, like that doesn't cost anybody any money, right? So you're right. I I feel like that's an important point because just in general, in in the purview of all of this, the landscape, I feel like people just are worried about that financial piece, but a lot of these things are free. What's interesting about this, and this is probably my lack of knowledge and ignorance, is that some of the accommodations that you mentioned that individuals with dyspraxy need is included. Include, but not limited to extra time, breaks, time to organize and get their ideas together. And what's interesting about that is that reminds me of a a lot of different manifestations of neurodivergence in terms of like the executive functioning piece, like the planning, prioritizing, organizing. So that also is part of how the brain is the management system, the executive functioning, brain management system is kind of a little bit weaker or having difficulty.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Absolutely. That's a core part as well. And that of what we call time blindness, which is blindness towards the passage of time when doing tasks or traveling to locations. And that's where helping with the management of time and have using tools like Google Calendar for reminders, having very transparent sense of how long things are going to take in order to help with planning out tasks as well.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Interesting. And this is where I think a lot of people probably misunderstand dyspraxia because things that you're mentioning overlap with other things, the ADHD piece with executive functioning, right? But it's much more than that. It's, you know, the mobility piece is a big one, I think. That could be a big flag for people. And the, but at the same time, I could see how people can misconstrue it and think, oh, well, let's write this off as ADHD, or let's write this off as just an executive functioning challenge, and that's causing the motor problem. I could see so many ways that people can perceive it. And speaking about perception and speaking about working, so I'm so curious because, and I spoke to someone from one of the dyspraxy associations about this, but it's interesting because this should be, I work in a school, and this should be in everybody's wheelbarrow in the sense of working with this uh population. So as a speech pathologist, I think, okay, I have to have knowledge of this. I'm gonna be working with individuals who have this just because of so many co-occurrences. And then there's the occupational therapist, right, that also can work on this. And there's also the if we have a physical therapist, right, that can work on this. So whose lane is this?

SPEAKER_02 24:10

In the diagnosis is a multi-professional lane, but I I think that's important in order to get all the pieces from the movement to the mental to the coordination to everything else.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

Right. So for the diagnosis, it would be a multi-professional panel and everybody collaborating together, which happens so often. I'm just kidding, I know we're all siloed now, but but in terms of the the actual like kind of um process of of working and treating that, you know, because there's no treatment, obviously, but the work of of of maintenance and and getting things, getting an individual to make progress with this, would that fall under the scope of occupational therapy? Would it fall under the scope or is that just a team effort too?

SPEAKER_02 24:55

I would say that's team effort too, but also I think there's an element on the individual too of being able to trial and error through which one of these tools can help them as well.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Okay. So then it's not really one person or one professional that can help. It can be a multitude of professionals, it could be one person. The individual can determine what works best for them in terms of the professionals that that work with them. Now you've you've met a lot of professionals along the way. A lot of you're a professional too, obviously, but you've met a lot of professionals that have tried to work with this. Um and sometimes I hear that just like they say things I've heard about this is I don't really know much about this, right? I don't really know how to work with this. I don't really know like what's going on. Your book is a great resource, um, multiple books actually that you've written about this and your writing, but where can they learn more about all of this so that they don't feel like I don't I don't really know dyspraxia?

SPEAKER_02 26:02

Well, the top resource I recommend is dyspraxia magazine, one I mentioned earlier, because it is patient-led and created and has perspectives from around the world, and that goes in more so into the lifestyle and everyday life side of things. That is a top one, but also I there are a number of other dyspraxic authors who have also come out around the same time as me who have been phenomenal. There's Lote O'Neill wrote a great picture book about her dyspraxia that explains in such simple terms what it is like to live as a young woman with dyspraxia. Or there's a wonderful book that I wrote I wrote the foreword for full disclosure called No Heals, No Problem, that goes more so into the adult side of things.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Wow, I like that. Yeah, as a woman, it's very catchy. Yeah, exactly. Because as women, I think that we also have to deal with another layer of of of difficulty with this. Because again, not to say that it's not hard on a male, of course, it's very hard getting through this, but um the added layer of trying to fit in, which I wanted to bring up of you know, belonging and fitting in. And so when you were younger, if you can recall from your prior, you know, younger years, did you find that you were having difficulty finding your tribe because people didn't understand what was going on with you? Did you find that you were you were able to access your tribe finally and find people that really were able to get you?

SPEAKER_02 27:39

Yeah, I I didn't for many years. I mean, I didn't know anybody who had that label. Although the interesting thing was many of my peers were neurodivergent in some sense, and I didn't understand or realize for many years later. So I more so the finding my tribe was being surrounded by people who definitely weren't neurotypical but didn't know yet, or people who were different in other senses. Like I had a lot of friends in the LGBTQ community, and I think that was most of what my tribe was, because they they understood and they got that. And it it wasn't until my late 20s that I started to actually meet dyspraxic yet and women, and that was a really big deal for me.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

Wow, that must have been just so eye-opening for you and just so such a relief, just because for my own experiences, when I went through certain struggles, I remember the burden was taken off of me when I met people like me who were going through the same thing at the same time. It just felt like wow, we really get each other. We we had some difficulties growing up with this, and now here we are, and it's just a sense of peace. I don't know. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 28:55

I have a wonderful virtual fitness group that is entirely populated by dyspraxics from different parts of the world, and the instructor is dyspraxic, and it is definitely that feeling that you've described because there's this sort of freeing sense of you don't have to do the fitness activity perfectly. You're just there to chat and interact and just generally try out the act of doing a fitness activity. And I find along the way we talk about so many of our stories, and that's part of it too. And and that helps us all realize that like it's much more normal than most people have led us to believe, which is amazing.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Yeah, I remember being in tears because I have an invil invisible illness. I have OCD, but it's invisible. And I remember my manifestation of OCD is is is something that until I was also in my, was it my 20s or about around that time, that I walked into this conference and I started crying because at the conference there was finally a screen that shared what I was experiencing. So I that's why I know the feeling really well. I just like burst into tears and I said, I can't believe it. Like finally, someone shedding light. And that's why I have a special place in my heart to misunderstood illness.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

Yeah. Yeah, going back to that fitness piece, because it is something that spraxit people struggle with when they're first learning different types of fitness activities. And because often how we're taught it in in school is aiming for being the superstar rather than just the person who enjoys it, it's a major source of stigma. And I think that's the problem. And then suddenly you're an adult and you know that you have to exercise, but you don't enjoy it. It just feels like a task. And I I think those things are a thing that's often overlooked because then it becomes, I remember fitness being really awful, but I I can't just get into it as much as everyone's saying I should. And I think that means that it takes people a lot of time to figure out what they genuinely enjoy. Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, fitness can so much be about wellness too. And I think we look at it more as a moral thing that we have to do and a lifestyle thing and a looking a certain way. But I mean, it can be part of like getting through a bad day or feeling a little bit better and mentally clearer about a mentally taxing situation or something like that. And I think that's why that fitness piece, if it's not associated with good, can be such a problematic thing as well, and all the health problems that can come with it. All the you're sedentary, therefore you're sitting still more, and therefore you're creating more risks like pain and mental health and various physical health things. Yeah, yeah, because we can get that so much out in the outside world and our jobs and our relationships and things like that. And that's such an important piece, I feel. Yeah, I had a very similar question from a friend who was autistic who came to one of my book events. And basically what I told him is that the most important thing you can do in order to navigate the complexities of all this is to find that element of what you really enjoy. And that is the strongest community you can possibly connect with. That is the strongest motivator through the challenges of that all. And I think that's really the best we can do and stick to what you can control versus what you cannot control, and always be constantly reminding yourself where you can control and what you can control in the support journey, but also in in general in all other aspects of your life. On July the 9th, I have studying with dyspraxia coming out. That is my book about navigating university as a dyspraxic student. I would argue that it's applicable to um dyspraxic university students, but also parents, educators, anyone with that sort of relevant interest. I just finished doing a book event in Toronto, my hometown, at one of the largest mental health bookstores. I have a studying with studying oh, the store, Caversham booksellers. Caversham. It's one of the largest in North America. That's that's what they put in on their advertising copy. Yeah. Yeah. And uh along with that, I've got a panel I'm gonna be on in the UK on special education coming up in September. Um, but I'm also doing a live stream as well over my LinkedIn and YouTube. That's on the 9th and the night of my book launch, in order to have a more interactive thing with myself and a few other dyspraxic authors to just celebrate what we're all doing. My two books, Stumbling Through Space and Time, Living Life of Dyspraxia, and Studying with Dyspraxia, are available at a bookseller near you. If not, then I would ask and request in advance. That's a process that as a reader you have a lot of control over. And my website is my first and last name, rosemarychings.com. And same with LinkedIn, Blue Sky, Instagram. And also I have a YouTube channel that's starting to grow that's also under my name. Yeah, thanks so much for having me.