53: What People Get Wrong About ABA with Rose Griffin

In this episode, we explore the world of Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA) with Rose Griffin, both and SLP and BCBA and through heartfelt stories, professional insights, and practical tools to be used. 

Join us as we unpack common misconceptions, highlight the importance of collaboration among therapists, educators, and families, and discuss strategies for supporting regulation across all ages and settings. 

We take a deeper dive into how ABA can be personalized while also being misunderstood, emphasizing its scientific foundation and versatility. The role of collaboration between speech therapists, BCBAs, teachers, and other professionals to improve outcomes cannot be understated. The integration of trauma informed care and sensory processing is essential for ABA to be successful.

To follow Rose:

Website: https://abaspeech.org/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/abaspeechbyrose/?hl=en

Book : https://a.co/d/03oCbjuu

Follow Unmasking Social at:

 
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/unmaskingsocial1
YouTube: Unmasking Social: The Podcast - YouTube

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome to Unmasking Social, where we talk about building real friendships and meaningful connections without masking who we truly are. I'm your host, Sharon Baume, a speech and language pathologist with an expertise in social thinking and how it relates to autism and ADHD. Specifically with our teams and queens. Let's dive in. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Unmasking Social. Today we have an ABA guru who is so specialized in the world of ABA, she's gonna break down any myth that we have about ABA in the speech world and beyond in order to support our teens and tweens and our children using this this methodology. Rose Griffin, ABA speech rose. If you haven't followed her on Instagram or you haven't seen her give presentations, here she is. Rose, thank you so much for Thanks so much for having me on. So it's it's crazy how we cross paths so many years ago, like a maybe a eight, nine years ago. And um yeah, and then back then I know you were so focused on the mental health piece and also ABA and how they coincide. And I, you know, was specializing in autism in a special program. And now it's, you know, come full circle. Now you're on my podcast. So I want to ask you, you know, I know that you have a lot of experience in working with children as an SLP, as an educator, and doing all these different things. What made you lean into ABA in such a way that you are now?

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Yeah, absolutely. So my second year as a speech language pathologist, which was a very long over 20 years ago, I was actually riffed from my school-based SLP position. So my job was eliminated due to financial concern at the district. And I was always very interested in working with autistic learners. And there was a position open at the Cleveland Clinic, which is right here in my neck of the woods. And at the time it was called Center for Autism. Now it's called the Learner School, and it was for students who were engaging in behavior that was not allowing them to be educated appropriately in a public school. And so it was a non-public program for autistic learners of various ages. And I took a position there and I learned all about helping students who are traditionally a little bit more difficult to help because they haven't responded to special education services. They have no way to communicate with the world usually, and they oftentimes are engaging in unsafe behavior, either that's unsafe to themselves or unsafe to others. And so they were ethically in clinic. And so we were providing school. It was a year-round school program. And I'll never forget, I worked with one kid who was 18. He had been in special education services his entire life. He was autistic, he had no way to communicate with the world. He was very aggressive and he was frustrated, obviously. So, and he was able to learn with a lot of collaboration how to use a tech speak. So I don't even know if that's a device anymore, but it was a static device. And he was able to learn how to request and talk about his day. And I'll never forget that. It made me really sad that he was at that advanced chronological age and had no way to communicate, but it also gave me a lot of hope. And so I was introduced to apply behavior analysis and I thought, wow, this is absolutely life-changing for this learner to now have a way to communicate with the world. I hated that it took him so long. And I really want to make sure that doesn't happen for anybody else ever. And so that is really what lit a fire in me to learn as much as I could about ABA. And then I became duly certified as a speech therapist in BCBA. There are fewer than 550 of us in the entire world. And it's something that I'm super excited about, even though it's not easy to try to get speech therapists and BCBAs to work together to help all learners.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Well, yeah, we'll talk about that, the collaboration and how it gets confusing and muddled. But it's so great that you are licensed in both and that you are working alongside that. Because again, as SLPs, we don't know enough about ABA. You know, we don't have the training unless we actually, you know, get the license and know more. And one of the things that I think has happened, actually, I know has happened in the worlds of uh SLP and education, is ABA has taken on a life of its own in terms of people thinking that it's restrictive, it's punitive, it's uh basically a model where, you know, you get something in ret in response to doing a certain behavior. And I would love for you to speak to that because I know that ABA is done in a very very nuanced ways, depending on what the student actually needs. And it's not exactly just here's a token for your good behavior and that's it.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

I think what people don't understand is that it seems like ABA centers are popping up everywhere, but it really all started with ABA being covered by insurance. And I had Lori Unamum on my podcast. She is a lawyer and she is also a mom to three kids, and two of them are autistic. And so I believe the story goes. She was on season one of my podcast, so I can't remember everything, but I believe that she had a position in Autism Speaks, and she went to every single state. I know that she went to every single state, and she really helped to get ABA covered by insurance. She was really very instrumental in doing that. And so once an intervention is covered by insurance, you're obviously going to see more providers. And I think that's why there have been an increase and now private equity is involved, and that's a whole other show. But there has been a lot of ABA clinics popping up. And that's really kind of why. When I started in the field, speech therapists and BCBAs didn't hate each other like they do now sometimes, because it just wasn't an issue. And so I talk to people all the time. I go to Asha every year because we're an Asha CEU provider. And people will say, like, Oh, yeah, you know, I wrote you a DM on Instagram about some collaboration woe they were having. And I was like, Oh, did I get back to you? You know, I try to get back to everybody, either audio or just texting back. But it really is really hard to collaborate at times. But there's a lot of misinformation on social media. And there's a lot of people who have a lot of followers in our space in the SLP space who who don't really uh promote collaborative services, even though we are ethically called by Asha to provide collaborative services. It doesn't mean you're gonna like every SLP or BCBA that you work with, and it doesn't mean you're gonna work with everybody who's practicing ethically. And those are things that we just need to document. We need to advocate for what is best for our student. It shouldn't be us first them. It should be we. We can help together.

unknown 6:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Yeah, 100%. And I actually had a psychologist on the podcast that is very leaned into ACT and uses it a lot with our neurodivergent population. And he actually has a BCBA. So he's able to use his behavior analysis with ACT. And ACT, for those who don't know, is acceptance and commitment therapy, and it's very helpful to our teens and tweens and children who are neurodivergent or not, or neurotypical, because it really is leaning into the what you value, but alongside behavior analysis, he's able to detect the behavior because of his background, and he's able to understand what the behavior serves as. And the thing is, is that of all the things that I've learned, and even especially through this podcast about this, is like behavior is a way of communicating, showing a behavior is is is a way that a children will communicate. And so then we have this ABA approach that is able to work alongside that, right? So, like, what do you think people are missing about ABA? Do you think that they're just uh stereotyping it into what they think it may be, or do you think it's a larger piece?

SPEAKER_01 7:58

I bring up Rachel Terrell a lot. I don't know if you know who she is. She is on Instagram and she is a speech therapist, and she provides speech therapy in ABA centers, but she was pretty, I'm not want to speak for her, but she was pretty anti-ABA as the story goes. She did a course for us in the ABA speech connection this past year, and it was all about providing ABA services that are neurodiversity affirming in ABA centers. It's a huge part of what she does in her private practice in Texas, I believe. And she was not really a fan of ABA. And she had a family friend who the child got diagnosed with having autism, and the family friend said, We're going to start ABA services. And Rachel was very dismayed about that. And the family friend said, No, no, it's great, really, that he loves it there and you just gotta come see it. And so she went and she was like, Oh, this is ABA. I think sometimes people have an idea of what ABA is, and there's a lot of naturalistic interventions that have always been a part of ABA. And I think that if we're only getting our information from influencers on social media, that we're really doing our field and the clients that we work with a disservice. And what really keeps me up at night that scares me is that in 10 years, people are going to say, wow, I wish I never would have created all that content that was very one-sided, that was anti-collaborative. Because if that stops a child from getting services that are going to help them be independent, independent with communication, independent with toileting, independent with the world, I would feel really bad about that as somebody who produces a lot of content on social media. So Rachel, now, you know, she, her team, they do a lot of SLP services in ABA Senate. And that's a big part of her private practice. And the field of ABA needs that. I I talk to many people every day. And I was just talking to a clinic owner in Washington State. They own two different clinics, and they're like, we really want to have SW therapists at least to consult with, and we just can't find anybody. So I think that our kids deserve us to collaborate. We're ethically called to, and financially it can be very lucrative as well.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

Yeah, you know, I I'll be completely transparent. Um, I also was falling into the trap of questioning ABA. I remember learning about it and I remember seeing it. And again, sometimes you see things and they're not representative of like the reality because sometimes people practice things in different ways and there are different reasons why they're doing it. I started speaking to ABA specialists and realizing that wait, there are different ways that you do ABA. There's not one way to do it. You know, it's just basically thinking about the behavior and then responding to it in different ways. It's not necessarily a token system. Everybody can and and I had someone on here who uses ABA systems with her children, who are neurodivergent. She's an audiologist herself, and she is able to use it in a way where they're able to earn things based on what they did during the some people are under the assumption that we can't work together in a session because the ABA therapist is doing something else while the SLP is working on something else. Is that incorrect?

SPEAKER_01 11:05

I mean, I really do think it depends on your funding source. You know, when I worked in a school, which was for over 20 years, knock on wood. For one year I did Medicaid billing, but I really did not work in districts where I was having to do Medicaid billing. That changes things. When you're starting to talk about insurance, you might not be able to collaborate, right? Because only one person may be able to bill. Right. But I worked in the clinics, but I also worked in schools. So my brain thinks school and and doesn't in school districts where I wasn't necessarily billing Medicaid and things like that. We were able to write shared goals and we didn't have to think about that other layer. So there is that layer. There is that layer of funding. But I think the thing to think about too is that ABA isn't just a token reinforcement system, it's really a science. So when you were talking about act, acceptance and commitment therapy, that is something that we can all apply to our lives. It's ABA is not an autism intervention. ABA is really a science that goes across our entire lives and goes across. I've met people that work with people who've had traumatic brain injuries and they are BCBAs. I've met BCBAs who work in the criminal justice department. I've met BCBAs who specialize in working in gerontology. And an example of that, a really popular book, I actually just saw the author at a conference, is called Atomic Habits. I don't know if you've ever heard of that book. It's one of the top 100-selling books of all times that sold like 30 million copies. That that guy actually lives kind of close to me. So I was at a conference in Boise, Idaho, and he was there. When I read that book, it really reminded me a lot of applied behavior analysis. And one super ex example would be let's say that it's um, you know, it's January. We all want to get back into shape. Well, one of the examples, I'm pretty sure it's an atomic habits, is okay, are we gonna pick this like amazing gym that's got everything we need, but it's 30 minutes from our work? Or are we going to go to a with a higher frequency to the gym that's five minutes from our work? It's super close. It's setting up, that's like an antecedent intervention. We're setting up our lives for success. When you're talking about acceptance and commitment therapy, we're analyzing our values. I did that when I was looking at, okay, I'm not getting to spend enough time with my own kids. I have three kids and a husband. And I knew that I really wanted to be present from my family. So I remember my daughter had a Halloween parade and I couldn't go because I was seeing clients, but my husband could go and he's in sales and he was making six times what I made at the time. And I thought this, what I'm doing every day, is not aligning with my internal core values, which is a part of ACT. And it's misaligned. And so I think that we're using, I know that we're using ABA all throughout our days. Now, some people will argue about that and they don't want to believe that, and that's fine. But these are things that are infused across our everyday. So ABA is not just a token chart. That's one part of ABA, it's a reinforcement strategy. But you know, it's just like a lot of BCBs don't use those things. It's just, it's very individualized to the child. So I think that we're doing the field a really big disservice if the only information that we're getting about other interventions, whether it's occupational therapy, PT, anything, is from social media.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Yeah, that's a good point because social media obviously, unfortunately, is very consumable. Like it's just people consume it constantly. And the doom scrolling, and if you already have a bias towards ABA, Instagram knows. And so it will send you reels of people saying, you know, they're anti-ABA, just like with everything else. But like to your point about the values and ABA, it's basically in a nutshell, looking at a behavior and trying to think about what that's serving and and how to respond to that or and how to work with that alongside regulation. I'm curious from an ABA standpoint, what is because everyone complains now about behaviors? Everybody. Like the classrooms are just completely dysfunctional. I'm sorry to say. Yeah. Like when you go to a school now, and I've been to so many schools over the years, it feels like a free-for-all because the kids are dysregulated. Where can teachers are leaving? They're not happy, they feel like they're doing 90% uh behavior management, but they don't necessarily have the tools and the kids are dysregulated. Where can ABA come in to serve them?

SPEAKER_01 15:21

That's so hard because I mean, three of my kids, one is neurodivergent. So I'm raising a child with ADHD. So when you say behaviors in a typical classroom, I'm wondering, do any of those kids have ADHD? Yeah. Or any of those kids on medication. That's a parental choice, right? And and child choice. I think there's so much that goes into that. And I think that it's really getting teacher buy-in to talk about like what are some really good antecedent interventions that we can do so that kids are not engaging in those types of behaviors. But it's tough. I mean, I worked in the schools for most of my life and it's just really um, really hard. And I think it's gonna depend on this the strength of your administrator and the support and the training that you're getting. That's a huge piece of it too. Because I think for speech therapists, at least when I was in school, we never took a course on how to support students who engage in behavior that's a barrier to their learning. We never talked about that. And so, never ever. And I was always really wanting to help those kids. And I always say on my podcast that when you say that you want to work with autistic learners and those who engage in unsafe behavior that's a barrier to their learning, that quickly becomes your entire caseload, which also jives with AAC usually. And so that was really just this is really just my life's work to help that type of learner. And I always get really sad. You know, not every BCBA is gonna be the best BCBA. So I think if you ask somebody a qu if you come up with somebody and they're having trouble collaborating with a BCBA, I think asking, you know, what is your experience with speech therapy or speech therapists or what is your experience with ABA? Because usually people that feel very strongly and are are just against collaboration feel that way because of maybe a personal experience that they've had. And, you know, not everybody's the same. I just think that if we ask those open-ended questions and we have active listening, that that's gonna help. Because when we say, I will not collaborate, that really is against our ethical code. And as somebody who taught an ethics course for five years at Kent State, I really believe in our ethical code.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

I agree with you, obviously, because I mean collaboration is key. And even if you don't necessarily understand what someone's doing, learn about it. We're all so siloed these days, which is so unfortunate between the OT, the SLP. It's just kind of the nature of the beast right now. I I know that there are behavioral interventionists, for example. They're kind of working within the classroom to see how they can assess and manage the behaviors. And these behavioral interventionists, I feel like, can be such a pivotal part of everything that we're dealing with because a lot of kids have experienced trauma. It is so integral, especially in low socioeconomic places where individuals just don't have the tools necessary necessarily to co-regulate or regulate on their own. And that's why I think this is important. Now, when you think about a behavioral interventionist, right, just for the listeners who aren't sure about this, they're they are ABA licensed, they're BCBA licensed, the behavioral intervention.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

I don't know because a lot of people, that is something good to make a distinction. Because when I went to school to become a BCBA, now it has changed because I've I've been duly certified for, you know, 15 years at least. Well longer. But the thing is, that's kind of that has been a difference as the field of of BCBAs has grown, the the requirements have changed. But to become a BCBA, you have to take a certain amount of graduate coursework. You have to do supervision with somebody who is a BCBA, very, very strict. It's not like our CFY where you filled out a paper two times and send it to Ash. This is like every month and a hundred hours or something like that. Things have changed. I haven't I don't do supervision anymore. But and then you have to take a test, a really hard test, where the pass rate just keeps getting lower and lower. So there, but so I am a board certified behavior analyst, BCBA. There are a lot of people that are working, and it's not to say that they're not doing a good job. It's just they're anybody could say they're a behavior support specialist or a behavior interventive. That does not mean that they're a BCBA. So the thing is, I know what I had to go through to become a speech therapist, and you know too, because you did it, right? It's a certain amount of rigor and it's really freaking hard.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

So just make sure that if you're working with somebody and they're a behavior support, that doesn't mean they're a BCBA. And I'm not saying one's better than the other, it's just there's a certain amount of coursework and a certain amount of rigor and standards that have to be done to become that and to have those credentials. So that's a really, really a vast difference. And when I used to supervise to used to own a business called Supervision Academy, where we would supervise future BCBAs, a lot of those people had those roles where they were behavior interventionists or every district has a different name for them. But they a lot of them were working towards their BCBA, but not everybody is. So I think that's an important, important distinction to make.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Yeah, for those listening, that is really important because I think a lot of times parents fall into the trap of, you know, hearing someone that specializes but doesn't necessarily know what their experience is. It reminds me of executive functioning that's also taking it life of its own. What is an executive functioning coach, right? Like anybody could say I'm an executive functioning coach, right? But what background do you have? Do you have a background in speech and language? Do you have a background in OT? And some don't have necessarily a background. I think coaching is also interesting just in general. I mean, there are so many people that are coaches, and I guess you could take a couple hour courses and then Yeah, I mean, anybody could be a coach.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

I mean, anybody can be a coach. It's like you're an executive function coach. Is that it's like, do you have ADHD yourself? Do you what you know? Like there's certain people like I love Sarah Ward. Like, she really specializes in executive functioning.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

She was on this podcast, she's wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Yeah, she's awesome, she's super smart, and she has people in her family that have trouble with executive functioning. So, like, I believe what she says. You know what I'm saying? But anybody can call themselves a coach. Anybody can say that they're a coach. She's really amazing, but you know, her her her options are lit. She only has so many hours in a day, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:37

No, I know. She truly is amazing. Yeah, yeah. But how do we get more people to get into this field? Because again, you said that social media could turn people away. You said that basically uh people look at these influencers and say, uh, this is not me, right? SLPs have such a strong background without even knowing it, and some of the skills that are needed for ABS. BCBA. So what is there a way that we can get more people to come on board?

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Yeah, I mean, I think you have to really want to be duly certified, right? So I mean, I'm duly certified, and the way that I'm using my licensures is just very different, right? Because I have a membership for CEUs, for speech therapists, and BCBAs, and courses for RBTs called the AB Speech Connection. Other people that are duly certified are often in administrative roles. Like I just taped my podcast this week. So my friend Ashley Whitaker was on, and she has a really awesome administrative role in a very large ABA company that's multidisciplinary. I I think it really just depends. Like some people have the licensures and they work in the schools. Some people have them and they go on to get their PhD. It just depends what you want to do with it. I just knew that I wanted to learn everything that I could about ABA and putting speech and ABA together because it was helping my clients so much. And that's really why I decided to do it.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

And what are some, not to put you on the spot, but I'll put you on the spot anyway. What are some of like the greatest successes that you've seen in working with ABA with your clients? Is there any moment that sticks out to you in terms of wow, like they just really weren't communicating? The behaviors were, you know, off the charts and suddenly now they're functioning in such a different way.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

Yeah, I had a kid that I met at a non-public program. He was very aggressive and he almost couldn't stay in his own home. He was, it was, he had very unsafe behavior. And what was interesting about that learner is that he had a perfectly set up AAC device, but he was going to a very rural district here in Ohio. And he came to our non-public program where I worked and I worked with him for three years. I used to have videos of him using his device to order when we would go on community outings at Dairy Queen and things like that. And he was staffed two males to himself in a separate room because he couldn't be around other students due to aggression. And so I was his speech therapist for three years and he was able to start using his device. And he was able to increase that behavior or increase his communication, decrease the severity of his aggressive behavior. And he was able to have his grandparents come over again. And he was able to work with just one female staff member, and he still continues to do that. Every once in a while, I check in and some like, how's so-and-so? Um, because you work with these kids for so long. But he was just in a district where they didn't know how to support him because they had never seen a kid who engaged in that level of aggressive behavior. And I think that's the other thing too, Sharon, is that some people don't understand how unsafe some behavior can be that learners have, either that's aggressive behavior or self-indurous behavior as well. And really that's kind of the world that I've always lived in is helping those types of kids learn how to communicate with the world because he just didn't respond to traditional therapy. He was probably nine when I met him, and he had been in special education services since the age of three, but he had no way to communicate. He was just navigating his day with behavior that was unsafe and it made his world and it made his family's world really small. And so with speech in ABA, he was able to go into the community and use his device and do all kinds of amazing things. So when when people say mean things on social media about ABA or that they don't want to collaborate, I feel like it's just it's really unfortunate.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Yeah, I mean, especially if you don't actually practice it, right? I mean, if you haven't practiced it and tried it, then how can you say it's bad, right? And that's where I guess social media um groupthink comes in, right? Where it's like, okay, one person said something, so I'm gonna think of two. Unfortunately, um following the sheep, following the herd. So it's interesting because I we all know that when you have difficulty communicating, right, the frustration increases, of course, because you're trying to communicate. And sometimes that manifests as behaviors. What I think is wonderful though is in that story, I think people don't realize that using an AAC device is not automatic. Like even though someone's prescribed an AAC device doesn't mean they're gonna want to use it, doesn't mean that they like to use it. And sometimes, you know, the aggression or whatever it may be, where they're frustrated, they just kind of tune it out. However, it seems like with ABA, you can even access these students in terms of using the AAC device, which is critical.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Yeah, AHC is just so important. And I think that's another big hole in the field. A lot of speech therapists, I always say I was very intimidated by AAC until my entire caseload were students using AAC, so I was immersed in it. And I had one course on AAC that really wasn't that great at all. And I really learned everything in the field because I was super passionate about it and I'm still learning. I'm gonna go to a PRC, they're right by me in Worcester, Ohio, training this fall, I think. And I just want to learn. I want to be able to learn so now I can share with my platform at ABA speech, but I think it's so very important. And BCBAs, they don't get much training in AAC either, and they're often tasked with having students who have AHC. So it's just it's unfortunate, and it's always comes back to a training component. So that's that's one of the things we try to help out with ABA speech. I know that's when we met a long time ago. I think you did a course for us, and we just we're still here refining the message, but still just trying to help others so they feel confident walking into every single speech therapy session.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

Yeah, and your message is widespread because when I met you all those years ago, you were just starting out to spread the word, and now the word is spread. The word is spread all over. When I teach speak to people in my profession, they mention your name and I'm like, oh, I knew her before you knew her. So, you know, but you were you were so committed, but you were just so committed even in that moment to just even posting stories about a chair, you were so like uh dedicated to this. It's like it really is your passion. But getting back to the safety piece, you know, feeling safe or self-insurance behaviors. I think that a lot of times people are concerned that certain behaviors will call will cause safety issues, obviously, because if the child isn't uh like manifesting the behavior in a way that's conducive to their safety, obviously there's gonna be a lot of other problems. And so ABA seems to be also something that allows for the safety because so many times I hear people saying, This child is exhibiting these behaviors and therefore they're they're a safety issue. And it's almost as if they people are professionals are speaking about in a way, like how do we get not get rid of the student with the safety issues, but how do we put them somewhere else so that they can be safe?

SPEAKER_01 28:30

Yeah, and sometimes it's just the environment needs to be modified. But that's what's really helpful. I worked with some really great school psychologists who have done functional behavior assessments where we're understanding why is this behavior occurring and can we what can we do before that behavior occurs? And can we help the student with functional communication training so they can let us know that they need a break or they need to get out of the area or whatever it is so that they can communicate? It really is an all hands-on-deck approach. It's not just one person that's gonna be able to help. And you you've talked about sensory. Actually, tonight I'm going out to eat with my former coworker. She's an OT. So I've always had really great working relationships with occupational therapists. I think that when we all work together, we need to get to the root of it. But I think that's the thing too, is that people really should and deserve to feel supported and safe at work. And I think that a lot of people struggle with that. I always tell people, you know, if you're working with somebody who has unsafe behavior, I wouldn't bring them to my therapy room by myself because that's putting yourself in a bad situation. Maybe you go into the classroom, maybe you see if there's a pair pro or a one-on-one that can come with you to therapy. I've done all different types of things. And actually in my book, I wrote a book, Say It With Me. We talk about that, is what environment might be right for a student, because that's another thing we really don't learn a whole lot about as a speech therapist, is how to work with students who do have behavioral barriers. And so I think we all deserve to feel safe at work. And so that might be seeing the kid in a different environment. That might mean seeing the student with another adult there to be a support. And we really have to advocate for that, for everybody's safety.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Yeah, and I think that also ties into trauma-informed care, which t is becoming a little bit bigger now in our field. And I I think at Asher they are having more and more uh speakers on this trauma-informed care. Uh, and that also ties into the safety piece and understanding the behavior. And I so that also may be a piece that overlaps with ABA in terms of knowing what is going on with the behavior from a trauma-informed lens. And I also wanted to uh mention something about I see this often, but essentially, uh very often individuals will say ABA is for non-speaking uh individuals. Um ABA is carved out for people who don't speak. Uh and I know that ABA can be used for all sorts of different communicators. So that misconception about it being just for people who non-speaking uh individuals is definitely a myth, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

I mean the thing is is ABA is not an just it's not an autism intervention. ABA is a science, and so it has lots of when you go to the main ABA conference, like kind of the equivalent of Asha, there are a lot of special interest groups just like we have at Asha. They kind of disbanded those a little bit, but I mean they still have forums and things like that. So just like that's how ABA is. There are a lot of different special interest groups. So you can talk about ABA and fitness. Like I really love to work out. I always thought it would be a cool business idea to have a BCBA. I'm sure this already exists. A BCBA working with a dietitian to help people be healthier and to reach their fitness goals. And, you know, there's just so much that you can do with ABA, and it really is a science. So it's not just it's not an intervention. I think people just don't really understand that. But you know, people are busy, they're just scrolling through TikToks and Instagram and they're getting half the story, right? So I know we're all busy, but hopefully that's helpful.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

So much misinformation, but I love how you mentioned the movement piece because I think that people underestimate movement and how integral it is to our students. And I notice that in some schools, um, recess isn't necessarily an outdoor activity. It's kind of you sit in your seat, you're sitting all day, and then you eat your snack there and you eat your lunch there, and you're like just at the desk. Yeah. A lot of students want to run around. They want to be children, they want to be teens and tweens, they want to have that outlet. I may feel dysregulated, but when I enter that gym and I move around, suddenly I become more regulated, and my behaviors that may have been more reactive may decrease, or maybe I get clarity on something. So I feel like that movement piece alongside of ABA can be really life-changing. I mean, this is your next business idea, perhaps.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Yeah, can't no kids yeah, kids need to move. I mean, it the incidence rate of ADHD is high. Like, people need to move their bodies. You know, like please don't, please don't do inside recess in life. I mean Ohio, I know you're in a cold area too, unless it's absolutely freezing. People need to move. People absolutely need to move. And it just, yeah, it regulates your body for a lot of time.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Yeah, and I think the concrete jungle here in New York City is especially not conducive to having large places unless you take them for a walk to the park and then you're stuck having this recess or not even recess, and and maybe there's like a gym component to it, but gym is only a certain amount of time, and not everybody relates to gym because there are certain structures within it that they feel they don't really want to be a part of. So just to have free movement and yoga and all these other things, uh the science probably has shown you know better than me that there is a connection between behavior and movement, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:42

I'm not sure really what the research is. I just know it makes my body feel good. I do Pilates every almost every day. So, and that's like yoga. We did a I really I don't know if you know the people on Instagram talk yoga. It's two people they own a really nice business. They've been on my podcast, but I I really believe in movement. So when I was planning groups for students, we always ended with a modified leisure skill, which might be weightlifting with water bottles, or it might be modified yoga. I think those things are all really important.

unknown 34:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

Yeah, that's great. And I remember doing the yoga. Um, I'm not a yoga specialist, but I remember years ago, it's actually a funny story. I would have it part of the routine where we would have five minutes of everybody doing yoga collaboratively, and everybody was able to do a different piece of yoga. And these were individuals with autism. So the social communication component, so the team building, the perspective taking, the flexibility, that was all so integral. And one time, unfortunately, I told one of the students, I kind of was pushing him, I said, Let's do it, just do it. And he said, I'm a little fearful, I'm a little fearful. I'm like, no, but just try it out. If you don't like it, you won't have to try it again. And what happens? He goes into a yoga pose and his pants rip. And I remember and I remember feeling so guilty. I'm like, here I am trying to promote this collaborative, social emotional thing. And then that happens. All sorts of things can happen, all interesting things can happen. But, you know, Rose, you're you're so well informed on this. I know you really want people to collaborate more. I know your mission is to bring more awareness, to break down these myths that are guided by just social media and and messages that people are receiving. And so, how do you think people can collaborate better? Uh, because again, we I sometimes feel like I'm siloed a little bit because, you know, we have our occupational therapists, we have our speech therapists, we have behavior interventionists. Like, is there a way that we can break through? I mean, I know you can't solve all these problems right now on this podcast, but is there a way that you've seen that collaboration can work really well between all of us?

SPEAKER_01 35:40

If I were gonna do two things, I would know who's on the team, be in contact with who's on the team. And if somebody brings up a treatment that you're not familiar with, ask them about it, not in an accusatory way, not by saying what's where's your research for that, but by just saying, like, oh, I haven't heard of that. If I had a speech therapist and they were, I don't know much about prompt, but I know some people in your area that are all prompt. Yeah, I'm not, I haven't been in one thing, you know. But I would just say, like, oh, I haven't learned much about that. Can you share what that looks like in the session? I would just ask questions and be an active listener. I know that that's not groundbreaking, but I think if we all did that, that we would all feel better about our jobs too.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

Yeah, and validating each other and understanding that even within the speech community, there's a fracture in terms of which approach is best. So, Rose, what is your hope for the future in terms of ABA and in terms of SLPs or even beyond that? What is your hope in terms of how it's going to be utilized across the board for both neurodivergent and neurotypical individuals?

SPEAKER_01 36:40

Yeah, I mean, really our mission at ABA Speech and my life's work is that I believe in a world where all autistic learners have a way to communicate with the world. And I do think that that is easier when we're able to collaborate. So I try to be that bridge. If somebody has wronged you and you have a question about it, you can always reach out to me at abaspeech.org or through my Instagram, which is ABA Speech by Rose. I check all my DMs myself. And I really think that I'm just trying to be here to be that bridge because I realize that they're not every speech therapist is the best, not every B B C B A is the best. Everybody has these, these unfortunate things that have happened. And if I can help somebody feel better about that collaboration piece, I would love to do that.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

Wow, thank you so much. And that's such an interesting inbox, probably, that you receive with all these. I can't even imagine. Yeah, kind of thing. I can't imagine what's going on in that inbox and all these crazy stories that must be happening. Because again, I and I said this on another podcast, and not to be gender specific, but I feel like we are in a female-dominated field. Not that I feel, I know that we are, and there is a mean girl component that sometimes arises. Not that corporate frat boys are, you know, any better, but I feel like that can happen because I see some of these groups on Facebook, and I'm just looking at it even this morning, and people are making other people feel kind of small just because like they feel like they know better. We should try to support one another because a common goal should be helping the child at the end. But I I will say one thing um before we close up. I do believe that ABA is now resurfacing in a more positive way, and I see it on my own social media. It could be my algorithms, but but I do see even beyond social media, people having a more positive relationship with it. I think it went through a bunch of years of having this negative association, but now I meet more people that are doing it and also more people that are willing to advocate. Like recently I was at uh a dinner and someone told uh a, I think it was a special education itinerant teacher told this ABA therapist, Oh yeah, ABA doesn't work. And I, the ABA therapist said straight up, I'm not having this conversation. You know, I'm not having this conversation right now. This is what works for the students I work with. And I was so proud that she spoke up for herself instead of getting into this whole back and forth. But anything that can help the kids, Rose, you are doing so many things, so many things. Since the time I met you to now, I feel like I don't know, like you just kind of just went with it. A book came out this week that you published. Do you want to speak to the book that you published?

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Yeah, absolutely. So it's called Say It With Me, Naturalistic Tools to Spark Speech and Social Engagement. And really, Sharon, it's the book that I wish I had over 20 years ago when I started in the field. I was working with autistic learners who are not yet speaking, and I felt really stuck. I felt stuck in how to plan sessions. I felt stuck with their progress. And over 20 plus years, I've learned so much about AAC and running IEP meetings and how to work collaboratively and how to goal set and work on joint attention. And so this is a really just like anything we do at ABA Speech, is really actionable. There's a lot of good tips and strategies about activities you can use in therapy. The whole back of the book is our Autism IEP goal bank, our informal communication screeners, our group data sheet. It's all the stuff that I really just use in my clinical practice. And so people were really excited. It just launched yesterday and it's been really cool. It hit number one in two different categories for new releases. So I'm really excited. It's it's just a combination of all the things I've been talking about probably since we met nine years ago. And it's all together in one book. And so it's been cool to see people uh so very excited about this.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

Well, clearly they are because you said you're number one and number two in multiple categories. So clearly people are on the ABA train more than we think. And I think people are coming around to see that it could be used in so many different ways, even in our personal lives, just as adults, whether you're neurodivergent or not. So are there any other exciting projects that you want to speak to?

SPEAKER_01 40:44

And yeah, the other thing that we offer is the ABA Speech Connection, which is our CEU membership. If you want to feel more competent supporting autistic learners, we have a lot of courses about AAC and joint attention and early intervention. And we're an Asha approved CE provider. So come on over to ABASpeech.org.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

You can learn more about it. That's wonderful. Rose, I can't thank you enough for being here. I know it was a long time coming with scheduling, logistics, and everything like that, but I knew I had to have you on. One because I saw the work you were doing early on, and now I see how it has evolved. And I really selfishly also wanted to have a better understanding of this ABA myth and what is really going on in the ABA world. So thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me. Thanks for joining us on Unmasking Social, where we neurodiverse advocates and those who support them. Explore how real friendship begins when we start showing up as ourselves. If today's episode resonated with you, please share it with a friend, leave a review, or follow me for more conversations that provide information on neurodivergent ways of thinking and communicating. Until next time, stay so show.