Corp Eh! Diem
Join Dom and Léa as they cut through entrepreneurial myths, deliver actionable advice, and dive into the real, unfiltered stories of Western Canadian builders. Corp Eh Diem isn't just another business podcast—it's a rallying cry for the proud, resilient entrepreneurs shaping our economy.
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Corp Eh! Diem
Is your next business venture right for you? With Geoff Best
In this episode of Corp Eh! Diem, we sit down with seasoned entrepreneur Geoff Best to explore the personal side of entrepreneurship. From a career in banking to launching a virtual law firm and even a barbershop, Geoff shares how pivotal life moments—like the 2008 financial crisis—pushed him toward building businesses aligned with his unique abilities. He dives into the idea that success in business isn’t just about passion or market fit, but about understanding what you’re truly good at and enjoy doing.
Geoff also introduces “Frank – The Straight Goods,” a tool he created to help founders assess not just whether a business idea is viable, but whether it fits them. Drawing on years of experience, Geoff developed Frank as a way to avoid the common trap of ending up in “entrepreneurial jail”—running a business that no longer serves you.
Hi, I'm Dominic Kingston.
Léa:And I'm Lea Lavoie.
Dom:Welcome to the Corp Diem Podcast
Léa:So today we have the pleasure of talking to Geoff Best. Geoff started his career as a branch manager at BDC. He worked in the banking industry until 2008, when the financial crisis forced him to look at a new career. He then ventured into the world of entrepreneurship with two businesses. The first one, simplex Legal. The goal was to make legal advice accessible to Canadian businesses, add better value with a human touch. The second one was a barbershop two completely different businesses. In 2021, he sold the company to a global firm his second liquidity of a startup. He's had several business ventures since, including the tool we'll discuss today Frank the Straight Goods.
Geoff:It's my pleasure to be here. Thank you both.
Dom:So, Geoff, I've noticed I've known you for years and I've noticed often you'll ask people what is their unique ability, and I've always found that interesting. Where did that come from and why did you use that?
Geoff:It's an interesting concept. It's something that we stole with honor from the strategic coach program that my partner, martine, took, and the notion of it is that everybody has something that they are particularly good at, that they love doing, and a lot of people won't even realize what it is. You've been doing it well since you were a kid and for you it's just natural. You can just do it and that's where you should spend your time and my whole engineering of my businesses.
Geoff:In a perfect world, I try to engineer that everybody who's working with me is working in their unique ability, because I know and it takes some time to sort out what yours is, and so I spend a lot of time on that myself to see what it is, so that I can just do that as much as I possibly can, because the stuff that I'm bad at and that I hate doing like why on earth am I doing that? But so many people spend a lot of time doing that. We're raised as kids to grind through stuff you hate, you know builds character and all that nonsense. But you know, when the light goes on, you realize that the stuff that you're bad at and you hate, there's some people that love it and are good at it, right. And if you can put them in that spot so that they do those things and allow you to do the stuff that you love and are good at, like, it's a recipe for success.
Dom:That makes sense. So have you. So you're obviously applied that in the businesses that you're being in.
Geoff:I take it as best as I can. Yeah, it's, it's um, it. It does a ton of things at once. Right, it's not easy, you have to engineer it, but it really allows people to um, to become that creative part of the puzzle and empowered because you leave them alone, because they're doing stuff you know that they're very good at and it also you know people don't hate their lives when they're doing stuff they love. That's you know. It's. So, for you think the whole retention kind of conundrum that businesses face, it's uh, it's something that that that just helps with that, without having to do a thing other than being conscious of what people love to do.
Dom:Yeah, so I worked in banking and I know you have as well. So in banking I was not very organized and not very like. My desk was a mess right and I get in trouble for you're disorganized and your desk is a mess.
Geoff:I've known you for many years, Dom, and it doesn't surprise me.
Dom:And I thought, oh, I have to work harder at this to be better at it. And I've discovered that it's not going to happen. So maybe that's why I've been intrigued by that question that you asked, because it's like so, if you can work within your unique ability, it's a great fit. And then, maybe before we get deeper into the show, but just to touch on it, so people often will say, if you're going to start a business, you should start something about what you're passionate about. So is what you're passionate about and your unique ability? Are they the same or different? And so should you start a business around passion or just your unique ability?
Geoff:No, that's a deep one and it's a lot of advice that you get. You know, you get a lot of the billionaires telling you to do that and and I don't, I don't know that I strictly believe it in practice. I think it's a nice concept and I think it's a it's admirable and I think, you know, if people can do that, that's lovely, but it doesn't necessarily make it a good business. And like, running a business is hard, right, and and it doesn't just cause you love something doesn't make it a good market, it doesn't. You know it can be just to say, someone's going to buy what you're selling, right, turn a hobby into a job, and then all of a sudden you hit your hobby, yeah, yeah, and I think you know. In short, I think sometimes it's better to just be really good at whatever.
Geoff:Opportunity you have when you're young To be good at something, to become excellent at it, opportunity you have when you're young to be good at something, to become excellent at it. Focus on areas where you can, can stretch that. Those muscles that are, you know, where you, what you love and what you're good at, try, and you know, let's be honest, you don't always have those choices when you're, you know, in your first jobs or whatever, right, it's like you gotta do what you gotta do. But if you can, um, if you can try and point yourself that direction, I think you'll be better off. And if over time you learn all the skills, then maybe you can weave into where your passions lie from that other side.
Dom:So I think that's a good segue. So I'll turn it over to Leah. So let's talk a bit about Geoff Best and how you got going.
Léa:Oh yeah, so, Geoff, you and Dom know each other well, but for me, this is only my second time meeting you, so I definitely did some online stalking to learn more about your story and how you became an entrepreneur. So I read up and I heard that you were in banking up until the 2008 financial crisis. So, as someone who was six years old in 2008, and I'm sorry to say this to both of you.
Geoff:Oh, that hurt.
Léa:I honestly, I really don't know anything about it. That's not fair. I know, like, what caused it, but I don't really know how it impacted people in business, and I think, for my generation, maybe there's a lot of parallels that could be made between the financial crisis in 2008 and COVID and the epidemic in 2020. I think a lot of people went into university who are major, maybe a bit older, started their career and, post COVID, they're really looking for a career change. Started their career and, post COVID, they're really looking for a career change, and maybe that plays well with your unique ability too. So how did that come into play in 2008? What was your mindset that led you to be like you know what? I'm going to leave something that's really safe, structured, like banking, and go into something that's completely new unstructured, not bureaucratic, and go and start my own business.
Dom:Yeah.
Geoff:Oh, it's, it's a. I know the stories. It's a good story. Well, first it was, um, you know, as a kid who grew up like super poor, like I, I I chose, you know, commercial lending as a. I just wanted a paycheck, you know, and, and a safe one. And uh, it was something that you know the, the, the, the company I worked for, was quite aggressive, like, ultimately worked for. I worked for a few, but the one I terminated with was quite an aggressive lender. So I got to be quite entrepreneurial within the space, at least for a time, and succeeded very well. I rose from sort of account management to running you know a billion dollar business for them, but very quickly, you know you talk about the financial crisis 2008, 2009, like, that was profound effect on on some companies and ours was, I think, very um was maybe impacted more than most because of the nature of how I won't get into the mechanics of it, but the nature of how they source their funds to, in turn, lend out to to clients. It became basically a liquid overnight. So my very safe job became very unsafe in a hurry and you know they were staring down the barrel of.
Geoff:You know, a lot of people like me, had been around a long time, who you know, to get rid of us because they needed to downsize. They couldn't support their operations given the financial uh, you know, they had to get rid of us and so it was. It was actually kind of a nasty breakup. I always say that, you know, some people leave their employer, my employer left me. So it was, uh, yeah, it was something that that didn't go well. Ultimately, we had to had to fight them and and uh, it all that all turned out fine, but uh, um, it was not an easy thing for a lot of people and you know, I don't know if it's a fair comparison to call COVID in it. Covid was such a profound like. Never before have we stopped the economy, you know, and I think we're still feeling the effects of it and I think we will probably for a long time.
Dom:It's usually dynamics of how people work, like in a sense right, how they perceive work, how they go to work, how does work get done to some degree?
Geoff:Yeah, exactly exactly, but I think for us in the sector we were ground zero of everything when Lehman Brothers went down. That was it, and it was a profound effect for that whole sector.
Dom:So fast forward. After that you're somewhere in Thailand planning your next move, so maybe dive us a bit into how you got there and what you, how your entrepreneurial journey started.
Geoff:Yeah, so well. It was part of part of the. The issues my my employer had is that I had sort of a side hustle. Uh, it was, it was non-competing and it was declared and everything else. But you know when in these sorts of times, those little details get pushed aside for what's convenient. But yeah, so basically we're in the midst of this financial crisis and you know, I'd been there long enough and had done well enough that I, you know I knew I wasn't going to be, you know, eating cat food if I was to try something more entrepreneurial. I've always had that bent. I had a commercial construction business and we had some. We built some late industrial warehouses and then leased them back to, in our case, to the province of Alberta. So that was, you know, something that was existing on the side. So, you know, the thinking was immediately, we can expand that, but it wasn't enough. So perhaps the the greatest bit of salesmanship in my life is I convinced the uh, the then associate general counsel for uh, it's General Electric is the company we're talking about and our GE Capital and convinced her to stay here in Alberta and uh, uh, do something.
Geoff:We enjoyed working together very well. So we we spent sort of the first year we spent just prefacing. You know the timeframe you're talking about, dom. We spent a year sort of consulting and just sort of getting our feet wet and and we ended up then saying, you know what? We got to launch something of our own. We're consulting. If we're going to do all this pain and agony, we'll do it for our own purposes. Consulting is hard. It's very hard, I don't have to tell you. So we went to. We both loved Asia, we love Thailand and still do, and so we went over there and we spent a better part of three months there and did a started with literally post-it notes on the wall of business ideas and what we should do, and then monsoon blew through and blew them all down. So I had to start again and it was a fantastic spot. It was very authentic. It was a pole house over the Andaman Sea and had internet but no windows.
Dom:So, if you have to take a place to brainstorm ideas, not a bad place to be.
Geoff:Yeah, I'm a big believer that different locations lead to be. Yeah, I'm a, I'm a big believer that, you know, different locations lead to more creative thought. You know, I've always sort of laughed at the notion. You know, you can get up in your same bed, take your same drive into work, sit in the same boardroom, and then it's like oh, today.
Dom:now be creative Right.
Geoff:It doesn't work that way. So you know, when your brain's on fire on something like that figuring out how to buy food, you know, and it just, I think, opens your mind. So basically came back with the idea for two businesses and paired it down to a list of two and wrote basically the business premise behind it, researched the hell out of them and then came back and launched and that's where two and they both figuring that one would fail, like statistically, actually they both ended up thriving and had exits out of both of them recently.
Dom:And the businesses were quite different. One was a law firm and one was a barbershop, so they're not exactly in the same sphere. So maybe, really briefly, how did you? I think the law one will be more apparent, but how did you end up with a barbershop and a law firm to start both the reconvene business and the service business at the same time?
Geoff:Yeah, well, the law firm was easy. My partner, martine, was a lawyer as a layman I read contracts every day in commercial finance and we dealt with a lot of lawyers and we felt that the industry was really ripe for disruption, that there was room for somebody to try something different. And, you know, I think we were ahead of the market, frankly. But, um, you know, we ended up building what is a virtual law firm. So we we gave basically in-house counsel services to companies across the, across Canada.
Geoff:We grew national and, um, our lawyers either worked virtually from home office for these clients or they worked on the at the client's place of business. So, you know, the whole punchline to the story is that, you know, without the overhead that plagues law today still does. Um, you know, our rates were half or less of for the same lawyer, same sort of year call, same expertise, same pan. Yeah, so, um, you know know it sounds all very smooth when I put it that way, and you know we did it for almost 15 years and then caught the eye of a legal tech company out of New York, multinational, who, you know, to enable this, it made us quite tech heavy and they liked our tech stack and kind of wanted to expand their offerings within the practice of law, but doing something different. They had their own sort of take on it in the States already, and so we negotiated with them you know sort of a protracted negotiation, protracted due deal and and exited about just over two years ago now.
Dom:So if you take, you know most people want to start a business because they want to start something, grow it up, scale it, sell it, get an exit that allows them to have more money than if they just had a job for that same period of time. So maybe just give a bit of a. Since you've done that for two businesses, maybe give us a bit of an idea of what it was like. Which part was harder starting, scaling or selling.
Geoff:Well, starting's fun. You know it's the best part. You know scaling is probably the hardest part. Man, they're all difficult in their own way. To be honest, you know, like taking something and making it bigger, it really strains your resources. It's hard to find. You know, if you need people to scale, it's hard to find the right people quickly enough to scale. Um, it strains working capital, it strains relationships. You know you're very we were very um conscious that.
Geoff:You know business can very quickly scale past what made it special in the first place. So, um, trying to do it right and sort of match our supply of lawyers and the demand of the market so that we didn't have a bunch of lawyers that we could hire but they weren't working. And then, or we had too much demand and we didn't have the lawyers to fulfill that demand, like it was, you know sort of a measured route to try and bring it up. But so that was tricky and you know was tricky and you know it. It also, as I said, it's hard on working capital. So you know we plowed everything back in the business. So it's not, it's not the most fun. It's not like you're making you know huge dollars. You're sort of subsisting and investing everything back into infrastructure and and new stuff. So that's that's difficult. The the sale going through due diligence especially, to you know, at a multinational level, sort of that is a painful process. Yeah, yeah, it took took almost six months in our case.
Dom:And I think the other part of people think of being in business. You look at like the business side but forget there's a personal, there's a human running the business right and that human has other life events and this and that going on. So I'm not sure if you want to go there, but there's like I think during the sale you were having some like other challenges that would make life complicated.
Geoff:Yeah, it was. You know there was my partner, martine. You know she was diagnosed with cancer and you know. So we're sort of trying to manage that. Like it came at the tail end of things, fortunately, because I truly could not have done it on my own, but it also made sort of that transitional piece for our acquiring company. It made it very difficult for them, you know, because all of a sudden that normal transition period you know where you have the founders around and you know that knowledge transfer and transition, you know piece where you can sort of smooth it and smooth it with people Well, that ended really quickly. You know, there's nothing more important than you know health in those kind of environments.
Geoff:So you know they were left on their own early, which was unfair for them.
Léa:I do have a question actually related to that. So you built Simplex Legal with Martine and with your partner. So how is it building a business with someone who you also have a personal relationship with? Because often, even in friendships or in various things, you can be great friends or great partners, but really horrible in business. And I guess when you're in a personal relationship with someone too, it's hard to always be there to support the other person because they're both really going through it and really busy building a business. So how was it? Do you regret building it with a partner? Would you recommend that others do it with a partner? And, if so, how do you kind of scale whether or not you should start a business with your partner or you should look somewhere else for someone who's a little more removed from your personal life?
Geoff:Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a great question. It's there's. There's pros and cons. Obviously, like you know, it's nice to be able to when you want to have a conversation, you have complete context. You know, like you don't have to say, well, you know this is this and this is happening and this is the person and this is why blah, blah, blah.
Geoff:Like you know everything about what's going on in in your professional lives, but you also know everything that's going on in your professional lives, right, and and um, it's very difficult to make it not bleed into the rest of your life. You know, and if you can have a bad day at the office or a setback in the business, like it's just not have it at home, yeah, it's virtually impossible not to have your home life impacted from it. You know, and you know we learned a lot over the years and it was very difficult to, you know, sort of manage that piece of it. So we set very strict rules that you know, after this time, like we did not talk about the business full stop, you know.
Léa:Like time in the day like after 10 pm. Yeah, like time in the day like after 10 PM.
Geoff:Yeah, like it was yeah, it was basically like after you know, like supper time on, like talk about anything else except that. And obviously there was times where you just had no choice, but it was uh, it was an important thing to try and compartmentalize and so you can actually thrive and have you know, have a bit of a work life balance when your work's also at home?
Léa:No, definitely. And with Simplex Legal, did you go into it with the goal of selling it, or was that something that kind of just happened along the way? Was it hard to let go of something that you've spent so long building, or was it kind of just like okay, I've had a good time, I'm kind of over it, I'm ready to move on to the next step.
Dom:Talk about blind spots. Yeah, what did Geoff not know about the business before you started it?
Geoff:No, kidding, that's a good one. And that's where things are different. Like you presume a lot with another person, especially someone you're involved with personally, in that you kind of presume that you're aligned on things, I think, maybe sometimes more than you actually are. And, you know, I think I was much more like okay, this thing is, let's get it gone as soon as we can. You know, being think I was much more like okay, this thing is, let's get, get it gone as soon as we can, you know, as soon as we have. Being fair and reasonable to everybody. Obviously that's not an irresponsible statement, but uh, you know, I think Martine was much more, um, wanting to hold on to the business and and run it sort of longer. So, um, there was a bit of a mismatch there.
Geoff:Um, but I think by the time that it, it sort of was at a stage where someone would look at us. I think she was at a place where it's like, okay, it's sort of sort of lined up and and made it. But, um, you know, the other, the other issue that was specific to this business that was particularly straining is, you know, martina is a lawyer, you know, and it's a practice of law, so and I'm not a lawyer, so, um, you know, she could uh deal with all of that side of the business and she was obliged to deal with that side of the business and and I couldn't and didn't want to deal with that side of the business. But you know, so everything else, sort of the finance side and the marketing side and everything that's where I got to know Dom as an aside was my domain, but as much as there was a hard wall that prevented me from sort of getting in her lane around the practice area, there was nothing stopping her from coming into mine.
Geoff:And you know, naturally, curious people and you know everyone has ideas, and certainly around marketing or finance you didn't have an idea. That was all mine, bored or silly, but you know, marketing, everyone likes to think they've got an opinion. You know everyone, everyone's got an imagination around it. So you know we, we had some friction there, you know, over time, to to kind of do it. And you know, and a lawyer has a way of thinking, it took a little time to say, like this isn't ready, don't take your pen out yet, this is just a napkin, right? This is a straw man of an idea. So it took a little training. But you know, by the end we got it and we still work together, you know, on business today. So it's still good.
Dom:So you've exited two in the last year or two exited two companies and then, obviously, back in Thailand, you went through a process to find the two that you were going to start and I have a bit of inside information where looking for something to do and trying to adjudicate the next venture. Tell us what that process was like and maybe where you ended up, which would lead into this other thing.
Geoff:Yeah Well, we knew enough even at that time that we didn't want to do something, whatever that something was like. Obviously it has to make sense as a business idea, like you have to have confidence that there's a market for it and that someone will buy what you're selling, and all of that. But we also, we were, we were conscious not to wanted to get into something that we would hate. You know that would be contrary to our, our, uh, sort of our, skills and abilities and and our, our, our, uh, yeah, yeah.
Dom:I didn't.
Geoff:I didn't sort of have it phrased like that clarity in my mind then. But, um, you know, and we, so that was all part of it, and we, we, we also looked at things like does it align with our existing network Right, like cause? Do we have others, others in our sort of, in our group or in our tribe that will help us in whatever this is? You know, being having both. You know I was in commercial finance forever. She was a you know a business lawyer.
Geoff:So you know we'd seen the insides of a lot of businesses and seeing what sort of makes them run right and not, and so we were cognizant of all that and that was part of the initial. You know, our post-it note on the wall kind of sorting was sort of part and parcel to that process to kind of winnow it down with all that in mind. But it was not done with any formality, it was really sort of out of the gut and then sort of you know A and B like which one sort of fits better.
Dom:I think along those lines, like if you took, like your journey through the businesses, were they perfectly aligned to what you wanted to be in? So, for example, I have a bit of an insight around, say, the barbershops and managing a barbershop might not be as good on paper or an experience as it may look on paper. So I think the question would be you know, I got friends of mine who are entrepreneurs as well and I'd say they put themselves into entrepreneur jail so they started off back to the. The start. Point's exciting you get going and there's things in the business that you didn't see because you didn't know.
Dom:And then next thing you know you can't quit the business. You can't give you two weeks notice and quit because you're in it. And now you're kind of stuck. Unless you can figure out how to get through the rocky bits or get out, then you're in it for not a fun ride. So the Frank idea that you have right. So somewhere along the way I think the market has a lot of conversations around product market fit, yeah, but not so much conversations around venture entrepreneur fit or like venture founder fit.
Geoff:So maybe talk a bit about how Frank got started in sort of this adjudication process which goes beyond just product market fit and more into how does it fit the overall ecosystem of being a founder, sure, sure it was sort of a product when we had the sale of the law firm, you know, and it was press released and you know, everybody knew all of a sudden right and we we made a point to to put it out to the world and you know. So the phone started ringing and I at very shortly I was looking at my whiteboard in my home office and I had like 12 opportunities, you know, to either to invest or participate or buy or, you know, partner, you know all these different incarnations, to be involved in these other businesses. And and I was just sitting there and I was like how the hell do I figure this out? You know, like I need something beyond just my own gut on what makes a good business. And I started thinking, talking to Martine about it, and we came up with sort of a, a, a framework, and it was like, yes, the deal, the, the idea, has to make sense and has to stand on its own. But then there's two other ways that it needs to line up with me. Like I want it to line up tangibly, like if I don't want to have to travel for business, I don't want to have to, if that's the prerequisite of that business model and sort of listing out what was important to me around those. Those sorts of things Do I, you know? Do I want to get income from it? Do I want to get enterprise value and sell it one day, like what is? Or some blend of them, what is? All the tangible characteristics of this, beyond the success or failure of the business model that are important to me and it's very, very unique to everybody. Right, it's very bespoke what's important. And then there's the intangible stuff, like does it line up with your values and ethics and is it something you'll have fun in? You know, is it something you'll have fun in? You know, is it something you'll have pride in? And you know that is also important.
Geoff:And business is hard, it's always hard, and it oh my, my line is always it only looks elegant in hindsight. You know it's a slog through the mud in the best of scenarios and I see if it, if it lines up with the rest of you, if it doesn't drain you in those other areas as well, it ensures you against getting burnt out. Because, dom, you're right, like you can't just leave, Like, once you get to a certain size and you start bringing on employees and or partners or investors, liabilities, and yeah, yeah, and, and you can't, you can't let it just go. And you know you, you, you're the one who deals with all this stuff. You started it. These people believed your line, you know, and they bought in, you know, in whatever way. Or even a supplier decided to sell you stuff and give you stuff on terms, right Like. You just don't want to see them stiffed because you get tired of it, you know. So you just don't allow yourself to get tired of it, and I find there's.
Dom:The conversation is always seems to be like how well will the venture do, like from that product market fit and can it grow?
Dom:And very rarely, and it might be, is your partner or your business partner like lined up in the business.
Dom:But in these other aspects of it, like does it if I don't want to travel, or will I have fun, or and sort of these other dimensions I don't think there's such a tool out there, a auditor, a diagnostic tool that would fit that. So my experience was Geoff and I was sitting in the mosquito bar in Thailand and I had an idea that would sort of take what I'm doing, consulting and kind of morph it into something else and on paper from a profit, you know, p&l point of view made sense. But I went to the tool and at this point in time it was a spreadsheet and at the end I had this big aha moment, like I do not want to start this business. It would not be fun, I wouldn't after six months I would not want to get up in the morning to do it. So, even though something else might be less lucrative, but I think if it's oh, there's more than two, more than two, yeah, I think a couple with him.
Geoff:Yeah, there's. Yeah, that was for me that was.
Dom:It doesn't make a thing if you're in the bar, but when you go home, yeah, my goodness I remember that place it was, but it was enlightening.
Geoff:It was enlightening Like I found the. For me that was sort of the turning point, because I developed this just for me, you know, just for my own sort of well-being and so that I could parse through these ideas. And when I saw the effect with Dom, how it was like an important insight that this thing delivered and honestly neither he nor I and quite experienced people, you know, people in business Neither one of us saw it until it was forced through this filter.
Geoff:I said you know what this is, something I'm going to do more. So I developed more of it. I made it into a more formalized, accessible tool. We're doing something with it now. It's a give back. It's one I don't really care.
Dom:What the Frank tool is today. So it went from Excel sheet in the mosquito bar to I can go online and I can interact with this tool to help an entrepreneur decide not. Will the venture be successful from a business model point of view? But you as an entrepreneur, is it aligned to you to make it successful?
Geoff:Yeah, like it certainly touches on that, because if it's a bad idea and obviously this isn't it's a question and answer kind of thing. It can't know all, but you know there's some obvious red flags, some things that you should really think about that around the business model itself, that that I think are germane. But then it goes into that alignment piece you know tangibly and intangibly does. Does this business model align? And, um, you know it started with that. And then you know I was basically based on the score, kind of doing the assessments you know for friends and kind of thing, and said, okay, this is what this means and this score is off, this is something you should really think about. And then you know I've been really wanting to apply AI in a real world case and so I thought, well, I've got this thing sort of sitting here, you know, coded. And so we worked with Amy, which is an organization that works with the University of Alberta, sort of the bridge between the business community.
Geoff:Inentity yes, yeah between the two and you know we layered on, basically did the interpretations using a large language model on it and then obviously with us, refining it behind the scenes and training it so that it could see kind of and give these kind of responses back with a degree of accuracy around it, but also something at scale, and that's technology brings scale.
Léa:So what kind of person should take the Frank test? Because for me, I'm not in a place in my life where I want to start a business, but I'd be interested in learning more about myself, what I'm good at, what I'm not good at, what I'm interested in. So obviously it can be used if you want to invest in a business, if you want to start a business. But even I'm thinking of like students who are unsure what they're studying but their abilities, what they're interested in doing. Because what you were saying earlier really resonated with me.
Léa:I know a lot of people were like because I went to business school, they're like I'm in accounting because that's easy, as it seems. It's a lot of work and if you hate it, who cares how much money you have? You're going to spend your whole day miserable. So I'm wondering if students could even use a tool like Frank just to learn more about themselves. Even if you're not looking to start a business, does the information they give you kind of just give you more context for, like, what am I good at? What can I apply my skills to?
Geoff:I think it could. It works best. I'll say this Leah, it works best with a real live project in mind, like, I think, in a student application, like if there was an entrepreneurship class perhaps.
Geoff:Yeah, there are, I think, to sort of take the idea through it and look at it from that. And it does Like going through and being asked questions you wouldn't. It's questions you wouldn't necessarily think to ask. There's no magic to it, it's just a product of you know a hundred years in business and watching businesses that have succeeded and failed, and talking to a lot of entrepreneurs that are a whole lot smarter than me and asking them kind of what they find are important qualities and questions that they would ask themselves or wish they would have asked themselves. So that's where it came.
Geoff:So, I think, from a you know, for for people on on at every stage of their journey, I think there is an application. I think, um, you know, as long as there's a real life, like even if it's like I'm going to start college pro painting, you know over the summer, like that's like why not, right? And you will get insights into it and insights into yourself. And I think if you do that along with you know some sort of personality testing, like, even in abbreviated form, I think. I think it's a good start to figuring that whole're paying it forward.
Dom:So maybe just a bit, so anyone that goes to Frank, to the Frank site and logs on to use the assessment maybe talk a bit about like how you're paying it forward.
Geoff:Yeah, it's. The notion of it is to really be a, a chance for an entrepreneur to just check themselves and validate their ideas. So for entrepreneurs, we have it as something that is very approachable and you know it's. You know there's a modest cost just to support it, but it's not meant for me to be a moneymaker. It's got other application, like the more that it's funny. It's like you build something, it's like building a house and and you know, as soon as you build it you realize you could huh, I could put a garage in the back and a pottery studio and I could add on a wing and put a B and B like um, there's certainly other uses for Frank that we're looking at and you know ways that you know could get it and its benefits out more broadly, but at this stage we're still we're still just talking.
Léa:So so, before we move on to another topic, I know one question that I had for you, Geoff, that actually maybe even applies to you, dom. So what do you do if you take the frank test and your results are telling you this isn't the right fit. So how do you pivot? Does it give you any information for like, okay, so this wasn't the right fit for me. Here's where I went wrong. Here's how I should apply to my next business, Because I know you did the original Excel sheet and told you no, this ain't it. You're not going to like it in a month or two. So how do you pivot after that?
Geoff:Yeah, like what it looks at is it looks at the two poles in your answer, so it looks at things that are particularly low scoring, you know. But things that are particularly low scoring, you know. If, for example, if you say, yeah, I use the travel example, you say, no, you know what? I cannot travel Just as part of your demographics, that you, you know, sort of start the thing with no travel isn't I got a young family. There's no way I can travel.
Geoff:Then the business model that you're looking at, the specific deal, if it asks you the question are you going to be obliged to travel in this idea?
Geoff:And it's like, yeah, I will Well, that'll flag and it'll say, you know, there's an obvious departure from what you deem important to what the model's doing. You know, could you consider and this is where the LLM that's sort of behind the scenes has been really good at suggesting alternatives, you know, have you considered, is this business model, could it be done virtually? You know, is there a way to do it remotely or is there a way to, you know, group travel in it or pivot away from it? And so it identifies the biggest negatives and suggests ways that you could mitigate them. It also suggests like these are the things that are standouts, so make sure that you know, you keep this in mind. These are ways that you can emphasize whatever these strong points are. And also, when you're talking to investors, you're talking to your banks, to suppliers, like make sure you emphasize these points because they're germane to people's risk assessments of the business.
Dom:Yeah, I think there's a bit of people know what they know, they know what they don't know, and I find the assessment brings out a bit of you don't know what you don't know and those are sort of those blind spots of things that will kind of get you. So I think by highlighting at least now it shines a light on it, you kind of become aware of I'm not sure of this and then you can explore it at least.
Geoff:So you might find the questioning yeah, and it's. Obviously it's not. You know people go to school for a long time to sort of sort these things out and spend lifetimes trying to try to answer these questions. So it's not meant to be an exhaustive silver bullet for everything and you know there's going to be things that cannot be contemplated in it. But the the what I've found the greatest use is it started some great conversations. They're going to raise some things for me to say you know what is? It started some great conversations. It raised some things for me to say you know what? I never thought of that I'm going to make a phone call talk to somebody who knows more than I do.
Dom:Yeah, I think chess is like business is a bit like full contact. Chess it's a bit of strategy, it's full contact. So I think by having something that highlights parts of the business that you haven't explored, at least allows you to explore it consciously, rather than six months down the road you're like, oh, I wish I thought of that yeah, and and to your point, lee about about you know what to do and and pivots.
Geoff:Pivoting gets only harder the longer you're in right, like if you think of it as building a house, like when it's just on paper, it's very easy to make changes right once you've got the framing done. Okay, you can still. Okay, let's move that wall, we'll put in this, put in that. But, like you know, once it's roughed in and the drywall is up, like you know, it starts getting really expensive and really really time consuming to change. So you know, that's sort of part of this is and you asked the question I didn't properly answer it is like when, and like as early as possible, like as soon as the ideas kind of gelled. I think I kind of like to do this and I think the earlier the better, because it's really easy when it's just on in your head it's even easier to pivot and before we move on to the conclusion, I have one last question for you that's related to entrepreneurship.
Léa:So would you recommend that someone should start a business earlier in their career, like kind of out of university in your early 20s or is it better to go out in the field, get a good 10 years of experience, be more comfortable and then start your business? Because I know for a lot of people the concern then becomes like, oh, if I'm in my early 30s maybe I'm married, maybe I have kids it's going to be harder to be working long hours versus when you're in your early 20s, like I'm 23 right now. I'm like I don't know anything about starting a business, like how could I even imagine that? So I know there's pros and cons to both, but as someone who started your business a couple of like a good decade into your career, would you go do it differently? Would you go straight out of university, go start a career, or do you think it's better to have some experience?
Geoff:That's a really, really good question. I think there's two obvious windows. Like I think any time can work, and I just have all the respect in the world for people who are entrepreneurs. I thought when I was on the other side of the desk in commercial lending, I thought I knew so much and I didn't know anything. I knew a lot about reading a financial statement, but the realities of business it's very different. So I think there's an obvious window. When you are young, when you don't have anything to lose, you know where you can try something on. And there's, you know, the nice thing about our, with the technologies and things that we have at our disposal today, that you know you can stand up a business very, very fast and very inexpensively right Like you can get a few few subscriptions to some. You know web services and tools and and and go.
Geoff:So there's. There's a lot of opportunity to do something. Try the market as quick as you possibly can, like I. My advice always is don't get lost in months and months of doing business plans and all that stuff like it. As soon as you're in the fog of battle, like it all goes out the window anyway. You're gonna have to pivot no matter what. So, um, just just, yeah, there's an obvious window. You just try something, you'll learn a ton. You'll probably fail, um, but you'll be so much better off than the next time. And I think then there's another obvious window, when you've kind of got enough in the bank or you've got a good second income, to say, okay, eyes wide open, we're going to do this and try something that we can build on. Some people just know what they want to do out of the cradle.
Léa:I hate those people. I'm so jealous.
Geoff:I am too. I still don't really know.
Dom:So two quick questions before we wrap. One is do you think there's like? So we started off the talk with what's your unique ability. So do you think there's traits that someone should have to be successful as an entrepreneur? Is there sort of a standard set of personality traits that would fit?
Geoff:To a point, like every business is different and demands different expertise, but sort of flying up 10,000 feet, I think you know resilience has to be on the list. You know, like you, you just got to keep getting up and dusting yourself off and moving forward. Getting up and dusting yourself off and moving forward. Certainly, you know, creativity is one being able to articulate your view and your vision to others and to you know, to staff and partners and investors, and that being able to tell your story, I'd say, you know, just off the top of my head, I think that's probably the top three. Like you know, somewhere in there, domain expertise lives.
Geoff:But, you know, like the barbershops which we, you know, just off the top of my head, I think that's probably the top three. Like you know, somewhere in their domain expertise lives. But, um, you know, I, I like the barbershops which we, you know, touched on earlier, like I don't cut hair I, you know, I had a law firm I'm not a lawyer and I had a construction company and hit my thumb more often than the nail. So, um, you know, you can bring other things and have domain experts as part of your team and part of your partnerships.
Dom:So last question so we've got this thing where we call three bits of advice. So if you had to give someone who's I don't know whether you would call them a founder, entrepreneur or business person, and they're somewhere in the journey, what three bits of advice would you have for them?
Geoff:Oh man, I wish I could have thought about this one in advance. We can kind of roll back into it.
Geoff:Three bits of advice I'd say focus on I can't not. We've talked about it earlier what you love and what you're good at should be front and center around it, and you should bring others in that bring what you don't have and what you're not great at. I think that's an obvious one. I think not falling in love with any one idea too soon. To look at it critically, you know, is this there's a lot of ideas you come up with over a bar and over a beer in a bar. Like you know, the bar rooms are full of good ideas and I think not all of them are great. They can sound good, but looking at them in a measured way is whether it fits. So a frank comes in.
Geoff:I guess I didn't mean that as sort of a frank plug, and I think going in and moving relentlessly forward, like one of the best concepts that we came up with in our business and when we're starting anything today, is like that first 80%, like just get there and then go on to the next thing because you know the, the, the advantage you have over everybody else, who's better capitalized, who knows more, you know, has all the resources that you don't is speed. So you know perfection is your enemy. And um, uh, I think sometimes you know you want something to be just perfect and I think just get to that first 80% and then get on to the next damn thing, yeah, and just accept it. And freedom to fail. There's four. Like just to embrace failure. You're going to fail all the time. Give your people freedom to fail, it's you can't. It's like learning to ski. Right, if you're just, you know pizza, french fries all day, you're not going to learn how to ski.
Léa:I love pizza You've got to fall now.
Dom:So, Geoff, if someone wants to find out more about Frank or go and use Frank, where should they?
Geoff:go. It's frankadviceai. Well, thanks for your time, Geoff, it's nothing but a pleasure.
Léa:Thank you so much it was so nice getting to know you better. It's a pleasure.
Dom:Thanks for tuning into the show.