Tending to Joy even in Adversity

In this conversation, Heather and Rod explore the “and” of joy & adversity, reflecting on how these two forces shape personal and professional growth. They discuss how joy can be both a fuel for the journey and the reward on the other side of hardship. Rod shares his belief that mastery over adversity brings fulfillment, while Heather notes that joy can also exist in moments, offering connection and buoyancy during tough times. Together, they emphasize the importance of slowing down, being present, and allowing joy, even in challenging seasons.

Disclaimer: The views and opinions shared in this episode belong solely to the host and the guest and do not necessarily reflect those of their employer or affiliated organizations.

Host: Heather Gates, MPH, Owner & Strategy Partner, Human-Centered Strategy, LLC
Guest: Dr. Rodney E. Jenkins, Sr., DrPH, MHA, Public Health Director, Durham County Department of Public Health

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Transcript

Heather
Hello this is Heather Gates and I welcome you to the stand in the and podcast where we have honest conversation about the messy complexity of the human experience, where we get stuck, and how we find forward in the and of it all where many things are true at once. 

This podcast is designed especially for those of us who want to make things more beautiful and better for everyone and sometimes need reminding that we are human too. I’m so glad you’re here. 


Heather Gates
Welcome back to the Stand in the And podcast everybody. I'm glad you're here. so that you can join me and my friend and fellow public health enthusiast Rod Jenkins in some pondering today. Rod, welcome to the podcast.

Rod Jenkins 
Thanks so much for having me. It's always good to be with you, Heather.

Heather Gates 
Thank you, I'm glad you're here. Rod, before we get started, I would like to invite you to introduce yourself to folks in whatever way feels meaningful to you.

Rod Jenkins 
Rod Jenkins, native of Charleston, South Carolina, better known as the best city in this side of heaven. Father of two, Rodney Jr., affectionately known as Roddy, and Isabella LaRue, affectionately known as Bella. Husband to Shereta of some 20 plus years.

happily married to her and continuing to live life, but dedicated public health-er as the public health director for Durham, North Carolina, Bull City. I try to represent as much as I can, but overall, just a very happy person and that happiness has come through a lot of adversity. But at the same time, there's so much to be happy and joyful about.

Heather Gates 
Well, that was just a beautiful, not only intro, but transition into our content. You're making my job easy today. I appreciate that. Yeah, happiness and joy and adversity. Before we get into it, you know the deal around here. We have to do an and stand first. So, and it can be, you know, as you know, your and that you're standing in today doesn't have to be topic related. So how are you showing up today? What, and are you standing in as we record on this dreary winter day?

Rod Jenkins 
I would say I'm standing in a double A. And I think that's appropriate because it's just like a double A battery, probably perhaps the most used battery that we use. And the double A for me is anticipation and accountability. I fully anticipate wrapping up a pretty good year professionally, stellar year personally.

As far as accountability, I have been involved professionally with a number of different initiatives, boards. The biggest one, of course, perhaps is the Association of Local Health Directors. And just really wanting to be accountable for my leadership and accountable for my actions as a leader this year. This has been a year in which we've seen our craft, public health under attack. Certain degrees that we hold near and dear are being dismissed and just really the slow dismantling of what we love. And I think that it's time for us to stand and be accountable for our profession, for our communities, and for the things, that thing that we love doing, which is helping communities to thrive and to preserve life itself.

Heather Gates 
Yeah, what a year for sure. It's just striking to I'm so caught up in where we are and what we're doing on a day to day basis to just pause with that to say, you know, it's December, we're coming up on the, I don't, it takes us a minute to put these out. So who knows what the month is when y'all hear this.

I'm tempted to not tell you what actual day it is right now, just in case you're like, why did it take them a month to get this out? But it's the end of the year. And there's a lot to reflect on. mean, it sounds like you've been quite busy stepping up in leadership. I mean, we were talking about this before we recorded, is I'm always inspired by folks who are not only leading in adversity and challenge in their, what I'd call their regular job, but who are

also stepping up to volunteer leadership in state associations and other capacities, which is, just such an important time for that to bring our collective energy and values and voices together in this moment so that we can, you know, remind each other and others what we value and what matters and what we're trying to be about. So, thank you for all of that.

Heather Gates 
And stand for me today. I am standing in... I'm going to say a tenderness and sturdiness. I am, I always get pondery and do some evaluation of myself and my work and my life and my energy at this time of year. And with that comes sitting with myself, having to tell the truth, having to tell the truth to myself.

Rod Jenkins 
Accountability.

Heather Gates 
Right, self-accountability that then leads me to vulnerability and conversations that just feel really tender and you know, like my truth exposed. And so I'm standing in some of that right now with myself and folks that are connected to that. So I think I'm feeling humbled by my humanity. We sure have talked before.

Rod Jenkins 
There you go.

Heather Gates 
a passionate person with a million interests and ideas. And I tend to start a lot and then realize that I'm still one person in a human body, that I can't sustain all those things. So I'm often in the dance between ideas and focus. And so there's just a tenderness that comes with that reality checking of my own capacity. And I'm sitting in that really freshly today.

So there's a tenderness and I'm realizing it's kind of a quieter version of me when I'm kind of ripped down like that. And then a sturdiness. So sometimes vulnerability can feel like wobbly, like baby deer legs or I think of like a hermit crab when it's finding a new shell, like really exposed.

Heather Gates 
But as I sit in this version of it, underneath it all feels really grounded and sturdy, which is nice to just notice in me that whatever I'm up to right now and however it feels is coming from a really centered place. Yeah, like underneath it all is a sturdiness and that feels nice to know that. I don't think that's not always been true for me. So to be able to hold the and really tech have the and not feel so pulled to one side of it.

Rod Jenkins 
Right.

Heather Gates 
because I could be pulled the other way too. I can feel, sometimes sturdiness to me is not the kind of grounded sturdiness I was talking about. It's more armor. It's kind of shelled up like I've got this, I'm fine, it's fine, everything's fine. You know, it's more a shell like of pretending that's holding it all together in some manufactured way. This feels like sturdiness from the ground. Rooted.

Rod Jenkins 
Yeah, rooted. Yeah. Yeah.

Heather Gates 
Yes, rooted. So yeah, I'm good to stand in that. So that's what I'm up to. So let's swirl all that together and see where it gets us today. It'll be interesting when I'm said I'm feeling more quiet, but the more I talk to you, the more kind of ramped up I get. So just kidding about that maybe. Hype man, hype it up. Well, let's hype it up because we are going to talk about

Rod Jenkins 
I have been known to be good hype man.

Heather Gates 
Back to your transition statement earlier, we decided that the And we wanted to stand in together today was joy and adversity. So Rod, maybe to start this, I'll tell you the more I think about this conversation, because we've talked about joy now for a while. You and I have been pondering about joy now for a minute. The more I think about it, the more I wonder if I really know what it is.

Rod Jenkins 
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Heather Gates 
which is an interesting place to find yourself as you host a conversation about joy. What does joy, I mean, I could ask you about joy and then we get examples of what brings me joy. I wonder if it's like, what are we even talking about when we say joy and adversity? Maybe let's just define the words and then we can talk about the tension between them and I'll add some layers, but get us, kick us off here. What does it mean?

Rod Jenkins 
I'd say joy for me, to me, is in a sense fulfillment. It's that goal that has been accomplished. It could be doing what the wifey asked you to do and seeing that you made her happy and her being happy makes you happy. That brings you joy.

It could very well be this period of reflection that we tend to go through this year, this time of the year, should say. I'm thinking back to all the adversity that you traversed, the hurdles that you jumped over, the mountains that you had to climb, so to speak. And you're on the other side and you're happy and you find joy, but you're not afraid to turn around and check your six.

and look back to see what all you have accomplished. Joy could be that, you know, slow coffee in the morning that just hits just right. You know, or tea.

Heather Gates 
Come on. Everybody in the audience who knows me is like that is what she only wants to talk about is slow coffee. So I'm not alone in this people.

Rod Jenkins 
It could very well be that, you know, particularly like, you got a hectic morning and you finally make it to the pot and you can slow down and you can enjoy it as you're reflecting or putting together your to-do list or just listening to, you know, your favorite podcasts. Those things are, you know, what brings me joy or what I consider to be joy.

Heather Gates
I think that's interesting that the first thing you said in that trail was around fulfillment.

Because I think when we think about joy, it feels... sparkly. It feels a little more jingle bells and Christmas lights and dance party. Now nothing brings me joy quite like a dance party so that also is true for me and increasingly as I think about this joy has and maybe it has different

Rod Jenkins 
Mm-hmm.

Heather Gates 
I don't know, different moods. Is joy moody? Because to me there is a fun part. There is like, that was a fun time as a family decorating the tree and seeing everybody. You mentioned your wife. Me seeing other people happy brings me joy. So the context of that is jubilant. So there's that piece of it and though slow coffee on the porch, contentedness, I am satisfied. And I just, sink into, when I say it that way, it feels like a sinking in back to rooted. I think last time we talked, was like, joy feels like roots. And when I say that, I think joy makes, it points me to…

Rod Jenkins 
Yes.

Heather Gates 
And I guess joy is an emotion. So it's more what are the things that activate that in me? But connection, I think maybe is the heart of it for me. And that could be connection to other people. It could be connection and presence in a moment or connection, deep connection to myself. So, I just love kind of the stretching out of...

Rod Jenkins 
Mm-hmm.

Heather Gates 
joy conceptually again who if there are emotion researchers listening to this podcast I'm quite sure I'm offending you on a regular basis because all certainly all of these words have real life definitions and I'm probably talking about five different things at once right now but this is a pod forgive us because this is a podcast about our own lived experience

Rod Jenkins 
Forgive us.

Heather Gates 
So yeah, joy to me, there is a happiness piece of it and there's a contented, satisfied piece of it. What we know it's not is toxic positivity.

Rod Jenkins 
It's not. We don't prescribe to that.

Heather Gates 
No, we're not saying like paint a layer of glitter sunshine over all of this. So there's our quick take on what we mean when we say joy and then we'll talk more about that. And then adversity. It's just, I mean, to me, I have a whole bucket of hard that I put in there. Personal challenge, work challenge, life challenge, hard stuff, stress.

Context to me, it can be crisis. And I think there's a lot of, you know, could pull this out if it hits a little bit different to me, whether we're in, you know, the event is happening right now, like the hurricane is here today. Adversity like there's that immediate crisis adversity. And they're, you know, kind of life season adversity.

Rod Jenkins 
Yes.

Rod Jenkins 
Mm-hmm.

Heather Gates 
chapters of adversity and there's the day-to-day stuff. I don't know if there's anything you would add to that, but to me when I say adversity, I'm like making space for all that.


Rod Jenkins 
I echo those sentiments because, you know, it could very well be long-term sustained adversity. it could be, you know, just that hurricane. It could be that natural event. It could be that ailment from a loved one that, you know, hopefully it's not, you know, long-term. can be, uh, can be fixed or can be healed.

So, know, adversity comes, in my opinion, to make you stronger and to eventually, and to eventually bring you joy. Because if you have been able to get through the tough times, been able to get through those sad seasons of life that are just really filled with adversity, you come out on the other side so much better.

Heather Gates 
So is that, let's talk more about that connectivity. For you, when we think about the and of joy and adversity, that the relationship between them is joy is on the other side of adversity?

Rod Jenkins 
It is my belief, yeah, it is.

Heather Gates 
I'm not gonna push back on that. I am going to add a layer of curiosity because I know you. I think also you might say.

Rod Jenkins 
Let's do it. Come on.

All right, we're going out of the way. All right.

Heather Gates 
Well, let me not guess. I'll say for me, for a long time, I thought joy was the finish line. It is my belief now that joy is also maybe not instead is also the fuel, not the finish line. It's the all along the way buoyancy.

Right? Sprinkles of joy. Cause I also don't, it's not my sense experience that joy is a steady, like any emotion. There's none of it is a steady state. We're always this sort of kaleidoscope of changing things. So it's, for me, joy is fuel for the journey. And then I get nervous when I hear myself say that, that it makes it seem like joy's job is to just get us somewhere. And

Rod Jenkins 
Mm-hmm.

Heather Gates 
I think it helps get us somewhere and also that it gets to just exist on its own as a part of human flourishing that we all get to have. Like even if not in route to something, like just because, like when I say joy is roots, I think it's in moments where I just feel connected to life. Not to get too meta about it, but like,

I'm doing, I'm lifeing. Like there's a presence. So maybe to me, joy is both has a presence and it also creates, when I think of the coming together adversity and joy, it's like joy helps give me buoyancy through hard time. Not only is it also on the other side. So that's my curiosity is, do you feel that too?

Rod Jenkins 
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Heather Gates 
I feel like you're one of the most joyful people I know. I feel like you're kind of, you have a relationship with joy in an ongoing way, not necessarily just on the other side of adversity ways. That feel true?

Rod Jenkins 
I think it is and I won't push. I will add a layer to that. And that layer is, think it comes, personally, when you think personally about joy, when you think professionally about joy, it comes with adversity and going through things and mastering the pain, mastering the season, mastering.

Heather Gates 
Do it! Let's go!

Rod Jenkins 
whatever you're going to, to get to the joy. And I add the layer of mastery because if you have been through something a number of times, you become so familiar with it to where you recognize that familiarity and you do your best to know what to do and to do the right thing and you master it. I would just say when you have the adversity and the mastery layered into it. For me personally, joy comes in recognizing that I have mastered this situation. I have been there, done it for this.

Heather Gates 
Interesting.

Rod Jenkins 
As a 50 plus year old man, I read something the other day that told me that I should have joy because I have spent half a century surviving.

Heather Gates 
Hmm.

Rod Jenkins 
and as a survivor of a number of different calamities of all of it, then to a certain degree I have mastered a certain amount of life-ing, if you will.

Heather Gates 
all of it.

Heather Gates 
Lifing. Yeah, so the layer you're adding here to me feels like, I keep coming back to your language from the very early of this is around fulfillment, like that there's a satisfaction that comes from experience and feeling like, because it certainly, it resonates for me. I don't know if I connect a joy to it, but so let me just see where this thought trail gets me is.

Rod Jenkins 
Mm-hmm.

Heather Gates 
you know, just the value and the wisdom that comes with time. I'm not 50 yet, but I'm close. And the experience, Part of, I talk a lot about courage calluses, it's like things that build over time and it's not exactly related to this, but it's something about challenge and the showing up and the leading through, the living through, the loving through challenge that build experiences and is a powerful teacher. And so, then as you experience adversity later, you have

Heather Gates 
you know, different tools in the toolkit than when you're, you know, first starting out. So certainly adversity changes. I feel that feels true to me is things are challenging in different ways over time. And then I think what you're saying is there's some satisfaction in that experience. Like it feels joy, you feel joy in the noticing of that growth. It sounds like that it's… Yeah, it's personal growth, I think I would say.

Rod Jenkins 
100%. And then I'll give you another example. You have loved ones or professional colleagues that are in that dark season. They're going through. And that's just another term. That's just another colloquialism for I'm going through adversity. I'm going through an adverse time. But they recognize that in you, there is somebody who has joy.

Heather Gates 
Mmm.

Rod Jenkins 
Who has the silver, the sparkles in their beard and their mustache, they may know a little something and then they come to you to seek help for that adversity that this stuff they're going through. And the mastery part comes in that like, Been there done that, let me tell you. And you're able to dispense that wisdom.

And in doing so and going back and reflecting and recollecting, you're smiling. You have a certain sense of joy because, once again, you're turning around and you're thinking back to like those times when you were with me. And now you're actually able to not only reflect and smile, but you're actually able to help your fellow man or woman to go through that time. And you encourage them to say,

This too shall pass. Here are the things that I think you need to do in order to get to the other side.

Heather Gates 
Yeah, so two things stand out to me in that Rod. One is, again, it's interesting to really settle into the and of joy and adversity because you have all this sort of process related joys as it relates to navigating adversity. So that it feels like it brings fulfillment and joy to help others. When you have some experience in it that you can then offer guidance and wisdom to others brings fulfillment and joy to you. And then the first thing you said about, you know, when we're going through tough times and we see someone else who is in their joy.

Heather Gates 
The immediate image that I got was the notion of like a lighthouse. Now I'm in the mountains, we don't have lighthouses here. But maybe, know, what'd you say, are you from Savannah? Charleston. So that's more coastal. Maybe you're connected to this lighthouse vision. But this notion that I don't, just, think it's a lovely thought for me to imagine that being in my joy, could somehow be a lighthouse for somebody else. And I don't know if that is, mean, check me on this. that metaphor works as a, or a mirror, it's like a reflection back or a reminder that light also, when we feel like we are in the dark and you see light, it sometimes is just a reminder like, there is light somewhere.

Rod Jenkins 
Yes.

Rod Jenkins 
There is.

Heather Gates 
What feels, as I say that, what comes up in me too is the experience of sometimes feeling like I am light and I am joy and someone else is not. I feel a little like, let me not shine too bright. I don't know if it's guilt. I don't know what it is, but like this, it's okay to be okay.

It's okay to not be okay and it's okay to be okay, not only to honor that that's your experience, but what you're offering to me right now is, what if not only is it okay for me to be okay and kind of stand in my light if that's how I'm feeling, like what if also by doing that I can be a lighthouse to somebody else?

Rod Jenkins 
Indeed, indeed. That's exactly what I'm saying. And I think that there's nothing wrong with recognizing that you've been through some tough times, you have that experience, and it's sort of a glow of humility.

Heather Gates 
a glow of humility.

Rod Jenkins
humility and that you’re not,  youre coming to meetings organizations confident, but your light is shining because you have joy because you you have confidence within yourself and your abilities you have something to contribute and it … It's that glow or that joy or that smile or that demeanor that really attracts folks. Like, why is this guy so happy? What's wrong with him? He's unbothered about anything. These are some tough times that we're going through. It's like the walls are caving in.

Heather Gates 
What's going on with him?

Rod Jenkins 
And then you almost feel like a lighthouse. You're attracted to that. I want to know what it is, especially if time after time, consistently this person seems to be the exact same way.

Heather Gates 
And you know what I think would happen? if I showed up like a lighthouse to a meeting and somebody came to me and said, Heather, what are you doing? Like what vitamins are you taking? What's the secret? Right? How are you so unbothered? I think what I would say to them is, don't be confused.

Rod Jenkins 
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Heather Gates 
This is not I am unbothered. It almost to me, Rod, is like, and I might touch into grief, which feels a little bit off topic, but to me, I think I am so joyful and light because of my willingness to turn toward the dark. Right, I am not, I am quite bothered often. And it almost like as I sink into that.

Heather Gates
it somehow there's like a there's a the adversity and the joy or the sad and the hard and the light are also tangled yin yang for me that one often leads me to the other. So, it's almost because I'm I am in relationship with both deeply. I get that light part. So it's very always and for me. think about loss a lot. I think about sad stuff a lot. I cry a lot. almost, just wonder, joy is such an intense, vulnerable emotion. I wonder if they're all kind of locked up and live there together. So you kind of got to just get in there with whatever it is and know that that is there too. And to me sometimes is I have to get to that really surrender and sink into that really tender place and kind of feel the heartbreak of just the temporary nature of all of it. I mean, all of this life is quite heartbreaking to me the way this whole arrangement works that then leads me to just pure joy and contentment at how beautiful the sky is today. And how delicious that cookie is and how fulfilled I feel like I get to be a human and a body on a planet.

Rod Jenkins
I agree.

Heather Gates 
And I don't know if it would feel that intense for me, the joy part, if I wasn't also connected. So for anybody who's wondering if they wanna come to me and ask me how I'm unbothered, I'll save you the visit to say I am quite bothered. And...

Rod Jenkins 
You

Heather Gates 
Yeah, feel that fulfillment and that joy all together. When it's really honest.

Rod Jenkins 
Yes. I would say yes. And again, you know.

Heather Gates 
I don't know that I'm like, I'm like can't wait to hear that rabbit trail rambling when I listen back to the tape again.

Rod Jenkins 
No, but I think that it wasn't rambling. I think it was you really unpacking, you know, that beautiful thought. And I'll just say, I totally agree. You cannot have one without the and and the other. You do. But I will say as a woman who has many lived experiences.

Rod Jenkins 
you learn to embrace both or multiple versions of it because it's a part of living.

Heather Gates 
Yeah, this is what, and I mean, y'all, this is my obsession with this podcast. This is why we're doing this. It's so much of it, I think, just reflects to me the truth of the human experience. And I think sometimes we get stuck in the and. Sometimes we get stuck because it feels like things are, you know, really are in conflict. Where I get most stuck in this is when I feel like it should be or feel a certain way different than it actually does.

When I feel, when I notice joy and am in really stress or tension context, either for me or for others, I'm like, feel shame. I think shame can block joy. So when I feel a way that gets in the way of joy and I can't allow it, that's where some of the stickiness comes. Or just in a really heavy time where you know the adversity is of the consuming nature.

Rod Jenkins 
Mm-hmm.

Heather Gates 
that I just don't have, I don't have access to it. You know, I don't, I don't know whether it's, can't, I don't have the time or the energy to surrender to it or to find it. I don't know if it's an allowing, if it's a noticing of more quiet joys. So that's a curiosity for me as times where I feel like I'm more heavy in fully noticing adversity and I can't see joy.

Rod Jenkins 
Mm-hmm.

Heather Gates 
It makes me wanna have a little journal prompt just to go. Cause I'm a fan of like, right, I'm a big journaler of writing directly to be like, dear Joy, are you here? Knock knock, you know, like, are you with me? You know, and see what Joy would say if it's like, I'm always there. You know, remember when the coffee this morning was great or how much you love these pink corduroy pants you have on? Like, you know, maybe it's little, it's smaller. And I guess part of that is why does it matter? Like, who cares?

Rod Jenkins 
think it matters because I remember as a young executive, I did not realize how my joy and my temperament affected so many different people. It wasn't until...

Heather Gates 
Mm.

Rod Jenkins 
And one of my employees came to me and said, is everything cool? Are you all right? I was like, yeah, I am. And they're like, good. Because you do know, like when you come in in the morning, that sets the tone for the entire C-suite. And it blew me away. I was like, me? And they're like, yeah, you. You're the one we see all the time. You're the one we come to.

You're the one who's like really kind of moderating the meetings. It's you. And I was like, it really blew me away. And I said, okay, I really need to watch myself. So, so therefore, you know, again, the joy and sadness, joy and anger, joy and disappointments. But what I've chosen is joy in the workplace.

Because the culture of the workplace is so important to success. It's so important to having an environment of healing as we need in public health and healthcare. So it's important to really emphasize and really, really, really embrace the joy part of being an executive. So therefore, like when you get inside, these extra auxiliary boards and doing all this other stuff. We can have a year like we've had this year, where I don't know how many different shoes have dropped. Many shoes have dropped. But what's the one thing that we have? We have each other and we have joy because we know that we're going to get through this. And I tell people all the time, like, how many months in years and hours and days of sustained, bewilderment, exhaustion that we go through with the pandemic.

Rod Jenkins
It was just, we will never get that back. But now, I submit to you, when you look back on it now, what do you do? You laugh, you sigh, you think about the many glasses of wine that you consumed. Whatever you did, but now you look back on it, you're just like, you got.

Heather Gates 
When you feel, mean, it's a lot. I mean, there's a lot when we reflect back on pandemic, but the piece of it, again, and I think you bring up this fulfillment, it sounds, this contentedness that you have with being on the other side of adversity. And I guess this sense of when you say that we know we'll get through this.

Heather Gates 
I think I'm like, do we know? Like, how do we really know? But it to me is, I guess all of it is everything is temporary. And that's tricky for me. I think I feel, yeah. I mean, that's an interesting, and there's so much I could take that down a path around.

around trust and all sorts of things. But you said too, you said we have each other and we have joy. And to me, those things live together. I mean, part of it, and I said this earlier, is joy to me is connection. if anything, and I think speaking of whether it's pandemic or hurricane or others, I think when you think about what builds resilience, we know this, whether it's early childhood or on is what builds our resilience is meaningful, healthy connection.

And so connection gives us buoyancy. It gives us joy in a moment. It feels good to me. It feels rooted and connected to me and also helps me through the adversity. So that's another one where they're just living right there together. To circle back what you said about being a leader in this space, what came to mind for me when you said being mindful of, and I think for all of, yeah, the energy that you bring into a room.

Heather Gates 
I think our energy is more contagious than we realize. But this idea, and I think a lot about it as a facilitator, because so often, right, I'm bringing the group together, and my energy helps set the container for what the thing is that we're gonna do. And this language, I don't know where this came from, but of being, what is it, being a thermostat, not a thermometer.

Rod Jenkins 
Nice.

Heather Gates 
Right, the thermostat is I'm gonna set the temperature. The thermometer is I'm just gonna take the temperature and kind of be what the temperature is. So when I hear you say, like being mindful that I'm gonna help set, I'm the thermometer, no, thermostat. I'm the thermostat to help set the tone, not just kind of take it as it is. So that's what comes up for me there in.

Rod Jenkins 
Mm-hmm.

Heather Gates 
And it's an interesting place. So anybody sitting in this because I think that's a tricky dance because I think it can feel like a mismatch. If you're in an agency who's really going through a hard time or in a field really going through a hard time and you come in, you know, full care bear, stare, rainbow bright energy, it can feel off tone of like, is he is he looking at what I'm looking at? Is he understand what's happened? So this this dance of holding joy and adversity together, telling the truth about those things is a really, fragile is not the right word, a really kind of special intentionality, I think, of how do I help elevate and hold the energy of the space where I think it is appropriate for where we are. What I also think that does, like I said before, sometimes when we're going through tough, it's hard to feel like it's okay to have joy and lightness. So it's a bit of a permission slip signing too for others to go, yeah, we're in hard times. And also we're still having the birthday bingo celebration on Friday at lunch and we're doing our all staff picnic and we're gonna take breaks for connection and joy and fun in the midst of this. So just.

Rod Jenkins 
Gotta do it.

Heather Gates 
I think there's a lot leaders can do just in the permission-ing and the allowing and encouraging and the honoring of where people are in that. that joy feels really, like that doesn't feel, fun and joy aren't the same, I don't think. So that thing you're doing doesn't really feel joyful for me. It's just, I think it's more nuanced and trickier than we probably give it credit for.

Rod Jenkins 
I think it's very tricky. would agree with you wholeheartedly.

Heather Gates 
And something it sounds like you're giving a lot of intention to. Any other things, Rod, when we think about the trickiness, in particular, I think a lot of listeners are in a work context, whether they're leaders or just on teams, as we experience, and honoring our own humanity too, but as we think about how we navigate that, are there any other tips or tools that we want to share? Can I reflect one back from a prior conversation that we've had that I think really stuck with me about something that you said is around slowing down?

Rod Jenkins 
Absolutely.

Heather Gates 
Remind me how slowing down is connected to this conversation.

Rod Jenkins 
Slow and steady. Actually, since the last time we conversed, added another one. I added calm, slow, and steady. Calm, slow, and steady. I do believe that individuals, regardless of what industry you're in, they tend to respond better to someone who is calm, who knows how to compose themselves. I mean, not to say that...

Rod Jenkins 
you don't have your frantic moments. But for the most part, when you have a calm demeanor, when there's a certain serenity about you to where folks seek you out because all heck is breaking loose and they just need somebody who has a very steady approach to getting things done. So I said, okay, calm is cool. But slow and steady has always been my mantra. And that...

Rod Jenkins 
You always want to make sure that you take the time to really spare no details. You slowly move into things. You continue to be that steady hand. think one of the biggest compliments I had, I receive from my work in the pandemic is I was categorized as being the steady hand of public health in Durham County. So that meant that I could be counted on. That meant that I would always show up and I would show up correctly. That also meant that, you know, again, I was that reliable voice of public health to get people, you know, out of a very fearful time. So, they're not meaning to bring up the pandemic all the time, but again, you know, it's so real and we're still, we're still, we're still have PTSD, you know? So, so with that, slow and steady has been something that I've embraced both personally and professionally. I'm going to take my time with my relationships. I'm going to have a steady approach to the work that I do. It's not all about, you know, it's all about getting things done, but not necessarily it's quick, you know, and leaving out pertinent details. It's all about making sure that you do things the right way in an effort to ensure that when you look back, you left nothing out, you spared no details, and you could really have a greater appreciation for your work. That's been my approach. And in doing so, a lot of joy. I receive a lot of joy from it. ahead. You're fine.

Heather Gates 
I think, sorry, I'll let you finish. Otherwise I'm just like, yes, that. Do you want to finish? You want me to go?

Rod Jenkins 
You're good. You're good.

Heather Gates 
I get excited. It just feels so true to me, the connection between in particular with joy. Because I wonder like just to hold that up next to it, my nervous system and adversity wants to move very quickly. The turn right the turn of stress, the stress response, the fear, anxiety, all of that is very fast moving. And if we put joy next to it, and I think about when I experience joy, it's when I can or am or have the opportunity to feel safe enough to surrender and sink into a slower way of being. I find so much more when my brain and my body can catch up.

My thoughts can get so far out of myself and I think joy to me is everything's in one place. My head, my heart, myself are all in one place. We've talked about slow coffee, connection with others. Even joy in work, when I think about joy in work, when I find most joy in work, I find great joy as a facilitator in connecting with other people. That is a very present.

Rod Jenkins 
Mm-hmm.

Heather Gates 
happening right now can't be fast because it is here kind of way. That's easier for me to get into because something about being in person with people demands presence to keep up with all that. Where I have to be more mindful of it is when I'm doing desk stuff like computer-y working on things. You know, too scattered or I'm trying to do an email and a piece of a document and this and this, but when I can really settle into it and get into float, that is the place where I find fulfillment and it is from a slower pace. And I think you and I share this sentiment that it's not slow in lieu of like there's an urgency about our work and because of that, the slow.

Rod Jenkins 
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Heather Gates 
Not instead of, not I'm just gonna be slow and the problems will work themselves out. It's like because they are what they are, the adversity is so intense. This slower, deliberate attentiveness, quality you've mentioned lives there. And then the fulfillment of the product of that work. So to me it's twofold. It's the product that comes out from that brings me more fulfillment and the experience of it. The sitting there doing it feels different when I can focus, which requires a slower, a slow instead, a slower and steady way of being. I just feel like that's an, I appreciate that layer.

Rod Jenkins 
And even for our listening audience, bringing the and to them and our listening audience. Think about those times coming or those times in the past when everyone's gone for Christmas holiday and you decide or you pull the bad straw and you got to work, but the place is empty. And you can slowly get into your work, you find that you're just so productive because there's nobody bothering you. You can ease into that report. You can look at that strategic plan and just think, we took our time and we did that thing. And now, you know, we're monitoring it and things are coming along. I mean, it is a whole different type of work in the month of December. It really is.

Heather Gates 
Yeah, and just a shout out to all the folks who, you know, so many of us get a big piece of time off to be with family and to decorate trees and do things. And a lot of our listeners on the health and health care side are the ones who are going to be in the ER if we need them that day, are the ones who are taking care of everything to make sure that we have food safety in the places that we're going. So just a big appreciation, as you mentioned that, for folks who really are sinking in on our collective behalf. So yeah, guess to wrap this, we're gonna start to wrap this up. On my side, I'm thinking about the importance of, huh, in the slowness.

Maybe just the noticing and you know it's interesting Rod as I think now that we do several podcasts and Mike am I kind of saying the same tools over and over or are the tools really different across the ands and one thing I know I know I'm talking about a lot is noticing. Like noticing what's like permission to let be what is. And.

Yes, maybe you're working on something really challenging and it feels fulfilling to be able to sit there and really dedicate yourself fully to it. like letting that also be with you. Being in tricky response and laughing with colleagues, like just like letting the complexity and the nuance be there, honoring that that is true.

Rod Jenkins 
Yes.

Heather Gates 
And then another one that's I know I'm talking about every time is curiosity. So curiosity around what joy means to you, how you cultivate that, what role does it play to the extent that it helps provide buoyancy for you, certainly permission to do that. Leaders have a big role to play. think we talk a lot around here about pause and, you know, are we creating cultures on our teams where we're making space for that part too. And then certainly mindfulness around, you know, as leaders. Yeah, the space we hold. I guess, you know, I think the last thing for me is a noticing or a curiosity around. permission maybe for Joy to be what it is for you. You know, I think a lot of time I for a while was like, I'm not a fun person is a story I had in my head. Like I'm just not a fun person. Because I think I thought fun was a certain looked a certain way.

Rod Jenkins 
Mm-hmm.

Heather Gates 
I don't say that anymore. But kind of, know, this, I'm not a joyful person, maybe like you might have of like, because I'm not that bubbly. Like, I don't think that's kind of to interrogate what our stories are around this. I don't think it's about, I'm, again, I'm smiling and unbothered all the time.

Rod Jenkins 
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Heather Gates 
Or does it mean I am joyful only? I can hold joy and be bothered. I can hold joy and feel disappointed. yeah, an invitation to see where else joy can.

Rod Jenkins 
But also an invitation to, also for me, an invitation to allow joy to supersede all of the above. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with

Heather Gates
Say that again, to supersede all of the above.

Rod Jenkins 
supersede all the above. Like if you're if you're frustrated, if you're angry, just know that there's joy in there and don't allow that anger, that frustration, that disappointment to overshadow, to supersede your joy.

Heather Gates 
Hmm. All right, fine. Challenge accepted. Because I'm quite sure even in situations where I would tell you that they're both with me, I'm not sure Joy gets the microphone.

Rod Jenkins 
That’s what Im saying.  That's the challenge, you know.

Heather Gates 
The challenges can I give? Yeah. 

Rod Jenkins 
Open mic, open mic with joy.

Heather Gates 
And immediately some resistance in me comes up in that. So that's so interesting. Because I've I so much want to honor and have the adversity and those in it around me feel seen in their experience to that. That that's something really interesting for me to to play, not play with, but kind of notice and intend to. But this notion of joy because we're not ever all feeling any of it all the time necessarily. So what is my, not responsibility, but opportunity when I do feel joy to let it be a lighthouse as an opportunity, as a truth, not an apology.

Rod Jenkins 
I like that.

Heather Gates 
That's what I'm gonna sit with, I think, is... yeah, as a reminder, I don't know this a lot. See, I'm like, the more we talk, the less I know about any about any of it. Which is exciting to me because this is what I wanted to do with this podcast. I'm like, I just gather my friends to talk to me about stuff that helps reveal the complexity of the human experience that sometimes is a lot messier and sometimes a lot more straightforward than I am letting it be.

Rod Jenkins 
What a nice chat this has been.

Heather Gates 
What a nice chat. I appreciate you being up to come chat with me on again, end of year reflection time. I appreciate everybody else too, who is willing to be on the ride with us. I am very curious for those who are listening, especially people who are like, you know, really tracking with this episode after episode. So you know a little bit what we're up to here.

I'm starting to map out 2026 and think about what do y'all want to talk about? know, what ands are you really wrestling with? Where are you finding yourself stuck in a tension that you're not sure how to navigate? I will never promise you that I have answers. I will just honor that I'm willing to dig in and invite somebody else to dig in. I will say to y'all that I think we're going to do a little do some stuff a little bit different coming into 2026 and have a couple of kind of folks that I would call experts in the human behavior, psychology, neuroscience space too to offer some perspectives and reflections. So that'll be a fun new twist, but would love to hear from y'all about what resonates, what you want us to talk about and ponder because I do, you know, I.  For those of you who know me, it's like this was a grand experiment to say, I'm gonna give it to the end of this year and then we'll see, but I'm loving it. So, we do intend to carry this forward into 2026. So, I'd look forward to hearing from you all about what your ideas are. You know how to find us, all the stuff is in the show notes. Yeah, look forward to hearing from you. Rod, thank you again.

Rod Jenkins 
My pleasure. Glad to be here.

Heather Gates 
Happy holidays to you and your family.

Rod Jenkins 
Happy holidays to you and the Gates family.

Heather Gates 
Thank you. I hope it's filled with slow coffee and moments of joy. Thank you for your leadership. Look forward to having you out there. Public health needs all of us.

Rod Jenkins 
Indeed, we appreciate you as well.

Heather Gates 
Thanks, Rod. Take care. Bye, everybody.

Heather
The stand in the and podcast is supported by human-centered strategy where we help leaders and teams build connection and strategy in complexity so that everyone can flourish. To learn more or to work with us please visit us online at human-centeredstrategy.com or message me on LinkedIn.