Leading (Others & Ourselves) with Empathy & Accountability

In this episode, Heather and Kirsten explore the intricate dance between empathy and accountability in leadership, team dynamics, personal relationships, and with ourselves. They discuss the importance of connection, clear expectations, and the necessity of pre-work in preparing for difficult conversations. They emphasize the value of curiosity, care, and the normalization of discomfort in fostering trust and effective communication all while finding the balance between being empathetic and holding ourselves and others accountable.

Disclaimer: The views and opinions shared in this episode belong solely to the host and the guest and do not necessarily reflect those of their employer or affiliated organizations.

Host: Heather Gates, MPH, Owner & Strategy Partner, Human-Centered Strategy 
Guest: Kirsten Cone, Executive Director, Givens Estate

Resources
"Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High" by Joseph Grenny, Kerry Patterson, Ron McMillan
"Crucial Accountability: Tools for Resolve" by Kerry Patterson, Joseph Grenny, David Maxfield, Ron McMillan, Al Switzler

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Transcript

Heather
Hello this is Heather Gates and I welcome you to the stand in the and podcast where we have honest conversation about the messy complexity of the human experience, where we get stuck, and how we find forward in the and of it all where many things are true at once. 

This podcast is designed especially for those of us who want to make things more beautiful and better for everyone and sometimes need reminding that we are human too. I’m so glad you’re here. 

Heather
Welcome back to the podcast, y'all. at the table with me today is one of my favorite humans on the planet. I love that. Kirsten Cone. Kirsten, welcome. 

Kirsten
Thank you. I'm excited. 

Heather
Good. Per usual, I let guests introduce themselves instead of me reading your bio. Sure. So introduce yourself in the way that feels meaningful to you to folks. 

Kirsten
So I love this. I am a partner to my fiancé, Marcus. 

Heather
Congratulations. 

Kirsten
Thank you. He is my person. He is my home. Just a really awesome human. he gets to be mine. So yeah, I really value my partnership. I think it's a foundation of kind of who I am and gives me the strength to kind of where I'm navigating.

whoever I am at that moment. I think the other part of me is I'm a mother to three beautiful, uniquely different humans. My stepdaughter, Cecilia, who's 22. My son, Zachary, who's 16, almost. And my son, Xavier, who just turned 12. And I think they have been so instrumental in my journey on this earth so far.

They just give me a great place to mess up and thrive and cry and celebrate and snuggle on couches. again, just every time you think you figure it out in one part of your competence skill set as a parent, the next one shows me I'm not. You know nothing. I appreciate them as my as who I am.

Heather
Sure, remind you that you know nothing. Very humbling

I have the absolute pleasure of being a daughter to my parents who I get to witness their kind of season of elderhood. They're still living, they live close, they're involved in my life. And I think, again, in my walk on this earth, to have them being interwoven into that is just something I don't take lightly, especially in the work that I do in aging services.

Kirsten 
and I'm a sister and that's wonderful and play lots of community roles and professionally I guess I'm classically trained as a physical therapist so part of me views myself as a healer in some ways but have always had this ability to be drawn to the aging process and so for probably 30 plus years have been in aging services and that has taken forms in both in acute care hospital, kind of a rehab post-acute kind of medical environment to community-based services, the ability to navigate a PACE program with a really underserved, marginalized population of elders, to getting to deal with residential living for seniors in for-profit and not-for-profit. So, I just feel a real richness kind of in the professional area related to aging and lots of things in there, whether it was just physical therapy or using my business degrees to do that. So go UNCG, right? Spartans. Yay, UConn Huskies from my physical therapy degree. yeah, just feel like each of those pieces of my person and my work just makes my story.

Heather
Well, thank you for sharing your story. reminded me of some things I had forgotten about you. And I actually had a little flashback to when our paths first crossed. I think you were a PT.

Kirsten
Gosh, I think I was, probably had just, yeah, because. I had a baby. Yeah, Zachary was little, so I had transitioned and taken a different path. I had stepped back and over and had just kind of moved to. Transition. Transition, and so yeah, I was a physical therapist, kind of treating and doing some director stuff and things like 

Heather
I remember that, I remember like you in the. You know, not what's not pre K. What is it? Yeah, right? What do you call it? Yeah, it's word our kids are teenagers. forget daycare. Daycare. I it was daycare. Daycare parking lot. Like, I have a vision of you holding a baby but then I remember I would have said, that's why this is interesting. Because I wouldn't said that was the first time I met you. I would have said that my first meeting of you was more like we're both coming in hot. Yeah. On like two wheels, trying to either get kids dropped off to get to work or coming in because we barely made it before the place closed. 

Kirsten
Correct. you had to pay the extra fee for every minute you were late. And I was like, there's that lady in the Talbot's dress. She looks like me. I think she's one of my people. Looks like she's sweating in a suit also. Go and let's go. her kid's sitting on the front step with my child

Heather
That's with my child. the steps of shame waiting on your working mom to come pick you up. either one of us probably racing to not be last. Yeah, good times. 

Kirsten
Yeah, the other image I have of you is in that same school. Our children participated in the circus production. work. And so I think... Both some of our children have been right. ring leaders, were clowns, the strong men. we were singing things like mushroom, cheese and crackers, cheese and crackers, mushrooms. These are good. These are good. 

Heather
And then. Um, forever will pronounce your name correctly because I think that finally when we saw each other and I said, Hi, I'm Heather or you said your name and I said, Kirsten, you said no Kirsten like ear and you tugged on your ear. Do you do this still? I still do that. Okay. So this is Kirsten like an ear in case you need to pronounce it correctly. I love that. So this is where paths crossed and that was when our kids were little, little, and now they're friends and they're older. We have not aged a bit, but they are course magically aging.

Heather 
It is amazing how youthful we've stayed. And so, and I want to get into it because we're going to talk about something actually not much related to parenting or why we know each other. But it's the tradition of the podcast to just kind of a quick touch on the and that you're standing in as you come today. So to kind of ground in where we are now. I know how to take a breath too is.

And I'm happy to go while you're thinking, because I know this was coming. I am showing up today in the and of what I want to call frazzle and focus. Frazzle just being, there are a lot of moving parts right now professionally and personally, so I feel like kind of at any moment at risk for it feeling overwhelming and frazzly, but I also have this, you know, I really am trying to focus on whatever the next thing is in front of me, but I'm aware that that is a bit of a zoom in and a zoom out situation. So, I'm trying to lean into focus for this, knowing that we have some frazzles running underneath. 

Kirsten
Yeah, I am feeling, kind of holding the and of stillness, pause, and action. It's showing up for me in do I need to take breath? Do I need to allow, you know, what the let them? Do I need to allow others to navigate, learn, stumble, fall. And my job is just to bear witness to kind of be still to still that kind of part of me and Or, right, I drive? Should I take action? This is coming up to me both at work, you know, am I watching the leaders? Am I waiting those that I'm coaching and working with to discover their path? Or should I take action to make the path a little clearer? Should I...

challenge, should I pull the rubber band a little taut, you know, or should I just let it be? And so that's always it feels just it's resonating. It resonates in my children right now. Should I should I be working with my kids to help them understand the opportunities or should I be still and allow it to present itself? 

Heather
There's so many when you say that. I was like, it's like this. But like about five different ands come up for me that are some version of that.

some version of hold on and let go, some version of push and patience. And it's a constant dance. I think push and patience is how I talk about it probably the most here in roles that are like project management like. It's like when do you nudge and when do you nurture?

The discernment and the dance back and forth, it's very, and it's never the answer being one thing or the other, like the topic we're gonna talk about today. don't think it's ever about one of them is the way, but what is the tool for the moment. 

Kirsten
And I think for myself, as we get into today, to talk about empathy, to talk about accountability, my preparation comes from a place of stillness and kind of preparing myself to bring and hold both of those. So it's interesting, right? I know when I bring action or that more of that push into that space, that is normally not where that and shows up the best. 

Heather
All right, let's get into it. You named it. So I invited you to stand in the end of empathy and accountability with me today. Nice and easy. Thanks. Yeah, you're welcome.

Heather 
This is probably the end that I had talked about the most with people. As leaders, I think primarily, it's just something I think to name that we don't necessarily name in that way. I've never worked with you actually in real life. I know, isn't that crazy? So it's interesting that I choose this somehow. I just see the way that you do life and it feels to me like holding

the both and of these come, it's clear to me that you operate in the and of both empathy and accountability. I perceive that that happens with ease for you. Oh, that's nice. So maybe we might dive into that a little bit Tell me otherwise. For me, I talk about it lot. It is one of the places that early career in particular was very challenging tension to hold.

And so again, my perception is this feels easy for you. Hasn't always felt easy for me, but let's talk about what's actually true there. And certainly the journey has changed. And one thing I'll add, and you and I didn't talk about this in advance, as I thought more about this is my natural tendencies on what happens for me and empathy and accountability tension with others.

is different than what happens in the empathy and accountability dance with me. 

Kirsten
Yeah, so funny. I did think about that, When I start even processing this, I almost feel like there's three buckets. Yeah, what do you see as buckets? three buckets are kind of the leadership bucket. We'll just call that broadly, right? Other people. could be not just folks that you lead but peers up down over 360.

Kirsten 
Up is tricky. Yeah, upward, up here and down. Down is easiest to me than the up and over. I also feel for me it shows up in, I'll say intimate relationships. 100%. So whether that's a whole second bucket, right? Whether that's my children, whether that's my partner, whether it's close friendships, those that are in that sacred kind of intimate circle. And then last is self. Right? Can, I'm probably the worst at that one if you look at that, right? Do I, am I?

able to have self-empathy and self-accountability before it becomes does it go to where does it go it seems to go someplace else and I have to remind that like do I talk to myself that way yeah so you know that that's probably the area I've done maybe the least I don't know maybe the least amount of work I don't yeah 

Heather
so I think we talked about but let's at least cover because I'm like leadership Let's at least talk about the leadership one and a little bit about the self one. Family's really hard too. It's all hard and it's all just thinking about what do we have time to cover? We'll see. Let's cover them off. We can get to it today. But maybe let's start with what is the tension, you know, as a leader when we think about holding the and of empathy and accountability. Sure. And in some regards that could, it can feel like a tension. In some regards, it can just feel like an intention. 

Kirsten
So, I think it is tension. I don't think I have ever, I've never had a challenging conversation where there still wasn't a tension or an expectation of that conversation. 

Heather
So you named something important here because we haven't actually connected conversation to this topic yet. So for you, as is me, as soon as I think about empathy and accountability.

it's the question of is a conversation like there's some noticing right I think the tension shows up to me is some kind of energetic noticing that then you say is a conversation in order 

Kirsten 
yeah there is definitely a it does not happen random it is definitely having intentionality and I guess even before that I can't, I have not found that I'm able to hold accountable empathetic conversations in a leadership unless I've done the pre-work. And so the pre-work to me is creating foundations of trust, creating safe work environments for my people, not being the first time I'm talking to someone about expectations. Have I set expectations clearly, right? You can't skip the pre-work.

You can't just be like, hi, I'm here, because you're either gonna stay in that, oh, I want them to like me. I think that sometimes early leadership, like, need to be everybody's friend, or, oh my gosh, their personal life is so challenging, I couldn't tell them that they're not doing a good job. It's like this mislabeling, where I think if you have created a work culture that you get to know your people personally, you get to, within boundaries, of course, right? But you care about them as humans, I guess maybe is a better way to say it, or have done the investment to be clear about the path where we're headed, then there is the ability to...

be kind and strong, right? It is just this, I've seen it written as warmth and strength, Kindness and strength, I mean, you can kind of substitute different pieces, but there is a way to let someone go from an organization in a compassionate way. There is a way to help someone grow in their profession by identifying gaps in their performance or their team behavior. And I think we just get scared that, if I say what you're doing bad. you're gonna cry, they're not gonna like me, they'll leave. Yeah, all those things could happen. 

Heather 
I just wanna slow this down. So much that you just said, because I've been thinking about this too, and that often, whether you call it a crucial conversation or difficult conversation is part of this. And so I was kind of thinking about the conversation side. But this foundation thing that you just reminded us of is so important. Two parts of that I'll pull out.

One is the relational side. 100%. Right? Is you know me, I know you, we have trust. So it's coming from like a foundation. Yes. On which then to build shared understanding and discussion past that. foundation in relationship and then foundation and clear expectations. So there's a great...

I meant to bring them to the table. didn't. They're two books, Crucial Conversations and Crucial Accountability. I don't have the second. So I may be borrowing this from them. But the reminder that we can't hold accountable to an expectation that we have not set. We skip that. We skip that part sometimes. you know, often if there's like, is this happening? go, have we made clear what the expectation is? So sometimes that's just the place to start.

Kirsten
Yeah, and that makes it easier actually, right? It's not this mystery box. I haven't said that actually, not please come to work, but coming to work at eight o'clock in your uniform ready to work is the expectation. That's very different than I hope you come to work.

It's different. The level of clarity of that is helpful. When you talked about the foundation of relation to the other thing that bubbled up for me is, and I forget where.

Kirsten 
I think I was interviewing someone, right? People are fascinating in interviews. And someone said to me, it's like coming in on two ships, right? You have to decide, are you on a battleship or are you on a relationship? And I don't even know where it's from. I wish I could find it. So if somebody knows the source of that, that's great. Ashley, Google it. But it has stayed with me. And I've rephrased it. And I use this, I bet, daily with my team.

are you coming from a place of love or are you coming from a place of war? And if you come into a crucial conversation about expectation or from a place of genuine love, it is a radically different conversation than coming in from a place of war.

And so that setting of that intention, that kind of stillness, the preparation that I have to do prior to any conversation to not just center myself right out kind of what I need to do, but really what am I hoping to get out of this? To be right? Or am I helping to guide this individual wherever it may be?

It may be to guide them and the opportunity is not in our organization. It may be to double down into our organization, but it comes from a genuine caring of the human and their understanding of, do you see this? I always hate that, like, a feedback's a gift. Right? It's gross. It’s gross. Nobody wants it. But I will say... intentional feedback that could be challenging hear can be really that candor can be really I think it's a great transformational it's and 

Heather
it depends right it depends on what it is and how it's delivered so again back to it's kind of another pin and what is the homework yeah so there's some pre-work to the context which is relationship clear expectation

Heather 
And then even if you're thinking, indeed, we need to have a conversation. There's the how do I settle myself, right? So there's the clarity. Yes. There's care. There's preparation. Another thing I would offer to this, think, is genuine curiosity. Because so often for me, have like part of my pre-work before I know I'm ready.

Because let's play it out. Like how this goes in real life and we don't have to role play necessarily, but like something happens. Kirsten shows up in flip flops to the ER. And I immediately have a feeling about it. Absolutely. So I have options. I can be like,

I have a feeling it's fine. She just came from the beach. No big deal. Let her do it. Right? But if I'm like, that's not actually okay. We need to have a conversation. I have learned that I have to get my nervous system sorted out first. Yes. And immediately. Now in that situation, probably do have to do some immediate damage control. So that's probably a terrible example. But in a lot of cases that I'm working with, it's not, have to dress something right this second. I can take a pause. I can take a pause. Yep.

needs to be timely, not. Right. Not I'm not saying let's wait two weeks because let's put a pan in timeliness. Yep. Is let me settle myself.

What are the facts? What are the feels of this moment? Where am I genuinely curious? And come at it from a place of care and curiosity. 

Kirsten
And I'd layer onto that one more, am I ready to be in the space myself? So that self is today not a good day? Am I heightened for whatever reason? And really, that is your responsibility to not enter that space not ready to hear it coming in hot, even though it has nothing to do with that. I mean, there has to be that personal accountability.

Heather 
That's back to the empathy and accountability that is to self. 

Kirsten
Right, to just say, I know we were supposed to have this important meeting, you know, on today, I really want to give you my full attention. And I'm authentic with that. think that authentic. I'm not going to show up as my best self today. And I really can we do this tomorrow at 10? Right. It's not secret. You're already modeling even what the conversation is going to be about. So, I don't see how that could be a negative. And like you said, just that coming into am I coming in pre prescripted and not being curious about huh?

I wonder why our new employee, I seem to be using attendance a lot, seems to be a punctuality on my mind as I was late today. That, you know, what is it why that person's late?

In that ability to be curious, wow, did they just get a new puppy and that puppy is peeing all over the place? Do they have a new baby? Do they have a relationship dynamic that's going on? Is there, did they just get bad news? Or they just never been held accountable to time management and planning for traffic, right? I don't think. And really not coming in ready to just scold and have a one-way dialogue, right? A monologue, but truly say,

hey, I'm glad we were here to get it today. I think I mentioned that I went through a training and one of the phrases is like, it's important that we talk about and you kind of name it. And so just like kind of ease into what is that initial ease into this conversation. 

Heather
I think that's an interesting just point as a tool is, and you said like, I'm somebody who does think about these, I'm not gonna just go in and wing it. Like I will have some things jotted down even for my own reflection, but.

Heather 
You know, often for me it's, know we both care about this. I know that you value this and so do I. I know we both care a lot about this organization. So somehow anchoring it in a shared value and then having curiosity. And even given the examples that you gave around, let's say I have a new puppy at home.

That's a place where we're entering this conversation. I have, I understand. do have empathy for that. That you have a puppy at home and our doors open at this time and you're the person that opens the doors. 

Kirsten
And so when you're late, the impact to our team is, you know, we're never delivered that excellent care, which when you are here, you are dynamic. When you are here, people give you accolades and man, I love having you on the team.

but it is, again, going back to that anchor, it is important that you show up on time. And what on time means, going that one more layer deeper, to be clear what this means here and whatever that XYZ environment is. And that ability to then...

say that. And I used to have this piece and I'm starting to change my language. was like when you kind of got to talking about it. So do I have your commitment moving forward? interesting. But that's a heady conversation. That's like, yeah, you have my commitment. Yeah, sure. Versus, know, so Heather, you know, you know, gosh, the puppy sounds so cute. And it sounds like it's really a real challenge. We talked about the importance of getting here. So what are you going to do differently so that you can be at work on time tomorrow?

Heather 
Yeah, that's what I me. then be in that stillness. Yeah, because I think it is the curiosity to go, this, we value this and we value this. What do you see as the path forward? What do you think we can figure out? If we understand that this is what needs to happen, how do we get there? And again, even as I'm imagining this conversation, you're not activated about it. It's facts. You're naming the facts in the feels. think for me, again, my natural tendency in the

I think was just anything felt confrontational, felt like I'm fearful that I'm gonna be that you think I'm an asshole. Yeah. And I just deeply want to be nice. And so I'm gonna not say anything. So let's just play that out. So what that means then is you don't say anything don't say or and i'm not i don't know how all y'all are dealing with it but i'm like say nothing say nothing say nothing straw breaks camel's back and i'm like explosion exactly so that's tricky and then that's not fair because it's back to timing that you said before is then we've waited way too long to say anything

or avoid it altogether and just quietly build grumpiness and resentment about the situation. So now where I am after having done a lot of reading, you know, just a lot of work and intentional journey over the past 15 years or so, truly, because I don't think this is a skill that we're taught. you don't wake up in a place where communication is modeled in this way, I think we see a lot of examples of

maybe all on one side or the other accountability that feels gross or empathy that feels like it does not have accountability. So there's not great models for this. And there's not necessarily great, we all have like received not good feedback. So I think it's something that requires intentionality to seek out and it's tricky because skill building is hard. You just are doing it in real life.

Kirsten 
What was bubbling up for me when you said that is, in modeling leadership, I think leadership has changed throughout the years. The idea that feelings or empathy even had a place at is word. And there's a lot of people right now who would say absolutely not. Absolutely not, right? And that's just not what I'm saying. And so I just completely disagree. Yeah, disagree. And so not having any of that modeled,

and not being able to say, actually, I actually can be kind in that. And I think sometimes we make it this big deal. I had a peer.

And there was a behavior in which this peer was doing. It was very simple, just kind of more popping in at the end of a, causing disruption. And I tend to be a more concrete sequential person and this person tends to be, right. And yet I adored

and valued our relationship. And it was, made me feel gross. I was like, I have got to tell this person. have to tell this person. this conversation. And I was finally like, okay, I'm just gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. And it was just like, hey, can I share some feedback? And I think you have to come up with the other tool I would say is you have to find some little phrasing that helps you transition into the space. I find that highly helpful. whether that's- 

Heather
Because it's that it's instigating statement that like raises your hand in the air. 

Kirsten
Correct. And so whatever that is for you like, hey, can I tell you something? Whatever that is. you have a minute? need to circle. I want to circle back and just be like, and I also think this is not where it needs to be dragged on. it does feel awkward. And so in this issue, we have this really exchange that maybe lasted, I'm gonna say five minutes. I will also say this, the response I initially got was not what I would have initially wanted.

Kirsten 
The response was like, taken aback? Like, do mean? Right, normal, defensive? And I was like, okay, again, that self-talk, I'm responsible for the words coming out, not responsible for how this person receives my message, how they process it, if I'm doing that. And we kind of ended with, well, why don't you just...

noodle on that a little bit. Let me know if what I said to you, if you can find any truth in that. I don't even know what exactly my words were. And we came back probably midweek the next week. And one, I actually saw behavioral change. Like something got put on my calendar that was very strategic. And we had the conversation about it, which was like,

Hey, I just wanna let you know when we talked about that, I felt really gross and I didn't really like to hear what you said, but then I processed it and you know what? I kinda did some reflection and thank you. I'm sure not every situation's gonna go like that, but again, that relationship was also very rooted in trust. So it was a safe space, our relationship was so strong in other deposits that I was able to say just this teeny behavior, doesn't define you, me, it just.

this is not working. And it's like, okay, that took five minutes. Now I'm not getting pissed off every time it's happening. we're moving on. And we're moving on. And then I'm one of those people like, it's done. We're not bringing it up. We don't need to keep talking about not keep talking about it and rehashing it. We're not gonna go through that. so it's that normalizing discomfort or, you know.

For whatever reason, I feel since I was little, I've been blessed with the ability to be uncomfortable in the, to be comfortable in the uncomfortable. You know, even though it still is triggering, I'm okay because this deeper belief I have that in the mess and working through the mess.

Kirsten 
is where we get to clarity, light, whatever that is. So fundamentally. 

Heather
You feel like you've had that. Because I would say I have that now. I have not always had that. It was a journey for sure. And again, to your another word, just to pull out when you said normalizing, when you create a culture that is, indeed, we can have curious conversations with both empathy and accountability. And that's just what we do.

Kirsten
respectful discussion and disagreement. 

Heather
We're going to disagree. We're going to challenge ideas because something else that you just did is say this behavior is not okay. Not you. Right. You are an amazing human worthy of love and all the things and that thing you did is not okay. Yep. The separation of those again a Brene Brown gift to me the difference in shame and guilt and all of that separating behavior from people. Super important foundation for all of this.

And as you were talking, know, originally Kirsten, when we frame this up, we're like, probably three buckets for this leadership, intimate partner or intimate relationships and then self. And as you were just describing that, I saw the dance between empathy and accountability of self and the other person. Like, like that, it's all tangled up together because you are, you're holding accountable to yourself for a conversation, you know, you need to have. Cause it's easy. Another piece of so much to say about this.

The willingness to have the conversation shows a certain amount of care to me period. Because the easier thing to do actually is to not have it. Absolutely. So it's more to me, I see it now, it's like I'm willing to spend the emotional energy on this because I'm willing to spend and care about you. And I view that to me that's where leadership I feel like has gone awry, right?

I, it is my responsibility. Yeah. It is my, own that as a leader of a team, as a team member, that I am going to be in this and invest in that, right? This, I feel like people get all into the, I'm not gonna,

micromanage, right? Where being aware of kind of details, asking for certain expectations of behaviors is not micromanagement, right? Obviously, if you're talking about in a different way, that would be whole another There certainly is a thing. Sure, there is a thing. That's not what we're talking about here, but the disengagement of a leader.

is that's not management, right? This like, I'm not gonna give them feedback, good or bad, or I'm only gonna give feedback on their skills and technical skills and the metrics and the scorecard and the KPIs and all the things, but I'm not going to address the other side, the humanness of the person. How are you as a teammate? How is your attitude? How are you showing up? It is both. 

Heather
Well, and I would say one of the places, because we've talked about this, part of the foundation

for your ability to have these conversations is clarity around expectations. Sure. And I think often it is very, it's much easier to say here's the expectation from a technical and performance standpoint when it comes to measures and care metrics and things.

getting really clear expectations around the culture and the behavior side in a way that is clear enough to hold accountable to is just a piece of extra work, I think, for people to continue to think about is have I made it clear and...Five values on the wall is not clarity. 

Kirsten
We were talking about this the other day, right? My t-shirt that's got my company whatever, or like you said, the poster is great. But you know, I think of some of the things we've talked about and I look through if you desire to lead a high performing team, right? Which I think many of us do. Right, And I want to be a member I don't know anybody that shows up in leadership. like, kind of just want to be regular. Yeah, I kind of want the lukewarm. We're going to come in medium.

Kirsten 
Right. But do you do the work to do that? And so for me, through my, from my leaders of the past and mentors I've had, it is that team, and it sounds silly, like we're going to do team charter work. We're going to like sit around and talk about specific behaviors that match the values. And I'll tell you, when I look back on my high performing teams that I have been a part of or have the

absolute pleasure to facilitate. It is because we stopped, took a pause, and said before we race, are we gonna talk? I I just spent at a meeting recently 25 minutes talking about whether a computer is allowed in a meeting. 25 minutes, right? Because that behavioral norm, we hadn't figured out. And so.

as you could easily just brush, okay, yeah, we're just gonna, but let's talk about, why was it? Let's go into the five whys, let's go deeper. because you think it's urgent, you think you're gonna miss something. So you're telling me your teams can't have you be present for an hour? Where you're not, they know where you are? They can go, right? And so it just led to other things of being curious. But then we walked around, now don't get me wrong, we still have to hold each other accountable, we still stumble, we still, you know, mess up.

But there is, again, it's not about a person. Back to your comment earlier, it is the behavior. we said that behavior as our group is not acceptable.

And so therefore now it's really actually quite easy for me to have a conversation. Because hey, remember we talked about this. Heather girl, right? We said no computers. no computers. I'm going to assume positive intent because that's also kind one of our norms. Could you tell me what was going on? Yeah. And then you have a choice. You're going to be like, yeah, I just totally blew that off. OK, so I'm going need you to recommit to that. Right? And great. It's not.

Kirsten 
Or, oh, I didn't realize something was happening. Remember, we have that out. You can just not come to the meeting if you can't be fully present. It's again, that normalizing, the clarity. expectations. And I think you have to go a little deeper than show up on time and downtime. I mean, I we've all been to some meetings and we have some standard team norms, which are good. Vegas rules apply. Those are great.

the uniqueness of whatever is your project team, your workforce team, your strategy team. I think you can apply that to family. What are our team, what are our family, what's our family, right, charter.

Right? So all of still is applicable. And then it's like, kid, teenager, partner, spouse. Remember, we said we care about this. I thought we said we cared about this. And we said when we do that, we're going to kind of call each other out in a kind, respectful, appropriate way. we said we cared about this. When I saw you do that thing, it felt like.

X instead of Y. Help me understand how you see that as this, right? How are those things the same? Yeah, so I think it's almost like a way of being, right? You either kind of adopt this idea. One, I think you have to philosophically decide for yourself, do I believe in this and is that a value, empathy and account? I mean, I think it does start there. True. That's interesting. It's just like, do you want it is an intention. It's an intention. 

Heather
First, so start there. I indeed want to lead with empathy and accountability. And then what from there? Yeah, and so I want to lead with that. 

Kirsten
And so because that, we're going to do this work. We're going to do trust work. We're going to do who are we as people work. We're going to do some of those other fundamental building up group dynamic work.

Kirsten 
And we're also going to learn how to give feedback. We're going to learn tools. We're going to have trainings. We're going to practice it. I'm going to challenge you as your leader sometimes to say, hey, have you had those difficult conversations? What's holding you back?

Um, and I'm going to expect you to do the same. going to weave it into your culture and you weave it into your culture. And then, you know, and let's be honest, right? We're talking about kind of the first conversation, which is, You can, uh, someone use the phrase or they ratchet it up, right? know, 
Kirsten, I've told you five, right. have had the don't wear flip flops here five times. isn't that though, even that is an easier conversation because if every previous conversation was held in the space.

of empathy and accountability. You know why you're coming to the office. And I think it can even be very hard. I have a couple of recollections of some individuals that were struggling really personally. Yeah, that's so And that's the hard one, right? Where I get stuck sometimes is there's a huge breakup. There's a lot going on. on. Like real, true real life crap.

And I can't have you functioning at a level one and I need you all the way at that level five. And knowing that as a human, you probably need to do some work, grief work, healing, counseling, and here's the EAP, and here's all these things. And while we're here, what are we gonna do? Because I don't really wanna. put you on a performance plan and work you out. I don't really want you to actually be coming to work feeling like you're in sacrifice of everything. I don't. I want you to have...

Kirsten 
So what is that? it? It's like shared problem solving. is. And so it's like, those are the tough ones because you're like, gosh, I really don't know how this is going to work. I really think this person maybe needs to reduce responsibilities. And I think then there's a sharing. I shared as myself, hey, I know when I had my little ones, I had to do different type of work. Because again, in my value set, being an excellent mom at that moment was most critical.

And so I knew I couldn't be an excellent executive director and an excellent mom at the exact same time. And so for me, I was like, let me shift this. Let me find what's there. Let me co-lead with someone, be where I need to be, perform at the level I want to with these responsibilities. And then, sure enough, as things shifted of whatever is someone's path to shift over, it's like, man, to have that kind of conversation with a team member or a peer.

or even sharing that up to your boss, like, I wanna show up and I'm not. Yeah, I mean, that comes with that self-accountability Right, and so I think there's just a way with that that, I don't know, I think all of us are stuck in that.

Right. And then the real fear, you know, I'll tell you like the super practical getting stuck is if I hold four people accountable and wipe out half my labor force, who the heck's gonna do the work? 

Heather
Well, if accountability means like, if it's like termination, right? Because think we have to be careful. Like, holding people accountable doesn't mean you just lost your job. And I think that's where everybody goes. Like calm down. Yeah. That doesn't mean we just had a conversation. Right. Don't go fire everyone. I'm just saying we need to have a conversation.

Kirsten
Then you also have to go deeper. If you are in, I'll say that escalated level, are you gonna allow, again, is the behavior disconnecting competency or is it a toxic behavior? If you're having toxicity within your workforce and you are not addressing that, and you can address a toxic employee,

Kirsten 
with account, with empathy and accountability. All of it. Right. You are making a choice then as a leader that you're probably causing some other problems in your department. 

Heather
Well, it reminds me like accountability at a different, right? These are all overlapping. It's like as a leader, accountable to the culture, accountable to the mission, individuals accountable for their piece, you accountable for your piece. It's a lot. And I keep thinking about, it actually came up in a personal

setting but so much for me as my tendency is or was, I don't think it's true anymore, avoid. I'm all in, I say I'm all in, I am an empath so I think my natural tendency is just empathy like they have a lot going on, is that and truly part of that is conflict avoidance.

It certainly plays out in my personal life. So now at our house, in my marriage, this little slogan, because it feels, that little entry point that you said is like, is especially when you know you've waited a little too long, maybe to bring it up. It's the code word. What is the entry point to the conversation? And it always feels a little weird and awkward. And so after not having conversations that then blow up,

to go, all right, our commitment to each other is to be weird sooner. Yes, I love it. So the little mantra is be weird sooner. So even now, I'm like, in service to be weird sooner. I just want to say blah, blah, weird thing. And you're like, And then he's like, you know, it just, gives me the entry point because again, we have seen it fail in a bunch of ways. So as you're talking, I'm like, all of this is be weird sooner.

What is the foundation to do that? If weird meaning kind of just awkward and it feels sometimes a little clumsy. 

Kirsten
So I'm gonna give you the other side of that because I think, and maybe this is, I've never thought about this in our friendship of balance. So I'm the person that's gonna confront the person in the grocery store because I don't get, like, I'm gonna confront everybody. Right, and mine is everyone. Every single person that I see, I'm gonna confront you and confront, and so I have You have to calm down in the different direction. So exactly, and so there's work on both sides, right?

Heather
I'm confronting, well, again, natural tendency is no one.

Kirsten 
because it's like, maybe I don't need to chase the person into the cave, right? Maybe they could be still. like that person who just drove the wrong direction the parking lot. Maybe you don't have to be the community police. Right. They cut me in line at the grocery store. Ma'am, I think you need to get. I'd so I think knowing again, that self knowledge. But in this space of saying, hey, do I need to wait on it a little bit more? Do I need to?

Heather
Yeah, I just be like, you know what, it's not worth my energy.

And making sure that in that, am I confronting again that kind of going back to do I want to be right relationship or do I am I curious, take a pause, prepare that preparation allows me some of that, that stillness and clarity. 

Heather
So that's interesting is even though we're coming at this with different natural tendencies. So if we just oversimplify ourselves and say Kirsten's natural tendency is coming in hot, Heather's natural tendency is not coming in.

Kirsten
There's our person in the middle going, wish I knew what was going on. 

Heather
What are we doing? In both cases, preparation is important. Your preparation is to let you get a pause and calm down a little bit.

My preparation is let me get myself organized a little bit that builds my confidence in service to the conversation. So we got to get to there differently, but the tools I think are similar. And in both sides, it's notice when you're feeling however you feel, right? You're going to feel some kind of way that you have to notice.

What curiosity are we bringing to it? Am I ready to come at this with care? So it's like, I think the tools and the process are similar. Curiosity is, once we get into the conversation, it's similar. It just the momentum that we're dealing, I gotta kind of amp some momentum up and you're trying to wind some momentum down so that we can come at it. It's just a really interesting.

Heather & Kirsten (49:59.248)
kind of place. Yeah, I don't think anybody like maybe there are we'd love to know. if you're out there, if you're just like, you're the middle handling this perfectly. Please come on the podcast. Because that would be awesome. Tell us your magic ways. 

Kirsten
Yeah, and so I do I think and I also think the good, bad, different, like the depth of the relationship. I think about like, oh, if I have to give my mom some feedback about something, ooh, that one may take me, as much as I maybe don't wanna come in, God, I feel like I wanna craft it, I wanna be so intentional and make it quote perfect, Good old Brene Brown stuff, like let's wash the perfection out and just make little steps, just start that conversation. Sorry, I didn't mean to whack that, but.

Heather 
why you knocked the mic on my fancy mics on the floor. But no, I think it is. then I really- It's act of care. mean, everything an act of care. I think that's where it is. I actually genuinely- Yeah, I feel that way now. I haven't always. that- Oh, and believe that- I think that for me, it's like, I believe if we do this, we're gonna rock as a team. We're gonna deliver excellent care, right? In my work-

I care for humans, Literally, physically, Like, that's, it's not a widget. Like, there's some, there's a level of, I don't know, I don't know, there's a higher stake to that in my mind. um.

And just being, and I think this can go, like we said, in all different areas of a team, it is that delay in that brewing, like you said, if you don't do that. And now coming into an organization or in different places in my career where that hasn't been the culture and making that cultural norm change, that's a whole nother discussion. work, yeah. Big work, but you can do it and you start to see it and you see light bulbs going on and you verbalize you're doing it.

Heather 
Right, you're making it really transparent. The other tool is... Because this is part of... You are naming as part of your culture that we are valuing... I mean, all this and business we're talking about can be part of culture. We value that many things can be true at once. lead with empathy and accountability. 

Kirsten
You should expect when you work here that as your leaders, they take their responsibility to give you feedback that should feel sometimes hard, sometimes...

That is that they're doing their job. We expect you to whatever that is. 

Heather
We're just going to have conversations. We're going to talk about collective accountability, accountability. 

Kirsten
We're going to talk about accountability, especially in some of my work, resident and staff. What does that look like? How do you push back? How do you receive? How do you challenge? You know, how do you have a conversation with like you get your your boss about something right and still say wow.

talk again, goes back to having courage, being brave, the ability to kind of stand in it, right? 

Heather
It is a standing in the It really is, as you were saying that, I said maybe the entry point is, I mean, if you had this in your culture, because where have I used this recently? Of like, I need this to stand in the and together. The and, I need us to stand in, you I talk about you all the time. can use that as an

I'm tangled in my cords. Yeah. Like if we can just honor that, then we have language that we can use. One thing too that I want to just kind of circle back to this on is you just were talking about care and how for you this is because you care. And I think it's interesting because it may be always, whether we do it or don't, maybe it's still just what we believe care looks like. Right? Because I care about you.

So I don't wanna make this weird. I care so I don't wanna do something that threatens the relationship. You're saying I care so I'm gonna have the conversation. So perhaps it's not a I don't care song. We just need to upgrade perhaps what showing care looks like. And honor that care and clarity in service to me. to you, to peers, to the mission, to the community, like that we're trying to hold care for all of that, which requires an and for empathy and accountability in a lot of directions, right? Empathy for the impact of certain behaviors. It's tangly. I just like, sometimes I'm curious with people is like, the word care you said, and it just, it activates something in me because I've had to learn that some of my behaviors,

were tied to what I thought care looked like. I care so I'm gonna worry about you. I care so I'm gonna work too much. I've just realized I have to upgrade what care looks like. 

Kirsten
Years ago, I remember having a great therapist and she, in one of my sessions, we spent a lot of time and I use it, it stays with me all the time. Am I in, especially being a servant, am I in service? I think you and I have talked about this. about It's so good. It's so simple. It's like, am I being in service to someone or an organization or a relationship or am I being in sacrifice? And when that piece is in the sacrifice, it then turns to resentment.

and get squirrely. Right, it is the, I work all these extra hours, I do all the extra things that work the man, I'm thinking of a leader right now, right? I don't know how you don't see all the work I do that has maybe no boundaries, no, and so to that person, they, in their mind, have kind of defined it as being in service, they're so service-oriented, servant leadership, servant heart, and.

it's an overuse of a skill, right? It's taking a competency model and it's an overuse of it. And so now it's like, now I'm pissed at my company that, right? Like, why am I not getting more money? Or why is my team members not helping it, right? It has completely taken this beautiful space of heart-led, centric, you know, space, and now it's in resentment. And then you have the team member that doesn't work that hard. They leave, they took their PTO.

Kirsten 
Whatever that may be, I think that has a place in this conversation of right, that empathy, accountability. If you, as someone who's not having those challenging, critical, uncomfortable, maybe difficult conversations, you're allowing that to build. And then that is going to really, then it clouds all the discussion. And so I've always been mindful both of myself, but in others like, wow.

And I can't tell you how many times young leaders specifically who are willing to do the extra work. The leaders I have, and we are talking a lot about this in some of my teams, and in the past is they've come in and they know how to do the stuff, right? Because that's why they were promoted. They stuff faster, quicker, more of it, great. They have a high capacity for work. They probably care, their heart is super big, their mission ready to go.

but no one to your point teaches them this. so it's like, well, I guess I'll just keep picking up the slack for the employee that doesn't do that. And I feel like I might be coming across like employees, but we have wonderful employees. in this situation, it's like, oh, because I write, what is the little phrase, what you permit you promote. So instead of having the conversation, I'll just do the thing. I'm going to do it. I'm going to tell her that she should come on time. I'm going to.

you know, start the coffee in the morning or push the MedCart or, you know, be the receptionist. I'll just cover because that's what it means to be to care, to help. And then now I'm getting annoyed. Yeah. Right. And then it builds resentment instead of a real simple conversation to sit down and say, Hey, Heather, man, I know you've joined us. You know, you've been with us and man, love it. I don't know if you've realized, right, but you've been

late four times, right? Very again specific, know, our standards is it's because you're great here. What are you going to do differently? gosh, you're gonna leave 15 minutes earlier. That sounds awesome. How about we check in in like a week? Yeah, like what is the next? And then right. And so then the other tool is great. You can have that conversation. You're not done as a leader.

Kirsten 
Yay. Right now is the follow up. And that we drop the ball there sometimes, right? All of Like we have one intention conversation and then we're done. Correct. Versus like, hey, let's circle up on this because again, now I want to praise. I want to be like, Heather, you have made it to work every day. That is fantastic. What? I'm curious. Again, curious. I'm curious. What did you do to do that? Oh, wow. You set your alarm differently. You set your clothes out the night before.

That is awesome. I can't tell you how much I value you being here and starting the day. I've heard from residents that they love that and that's really made a difference. Thanks for being part of that team. Like I can layer it and write and do those things. 

Heather
Yeah, I think a point and thing to point out there too is on the accountability side and it links back to what we're talking about about setting expectations is the culture of speaking to it when it's happening. Yes.

Right? Of like, that thing you just did was awesome. Versus lift the carpet. Well, that's just, it's part of that building the foundation of noticing when it's working. And when you gave that, when you started talking about that example, I was thinking too, that there's just, there's a really important step in the beginning of, I guess, for, because sometimes you do say it's not worth it. Back to your example of somebody in front of you in the line at the grocery store. Like there are times where you're like,

I don't, this is not a conversation worth having. That is correct. I am just gonna push the cart. It's not usually my thing to do this, but I'm here and I am a team play. I'm gonna do the cart. Can I actually do it in care and service and let this go and not have a vibe about it? What I have to be mindful of is like, when does that build up? When is it really not true? So that's back to personal accountability for what is actually true for you versus what are we trying to have true so that we don't have to have a... challenging conversation. 

Kirsten
And I have to say there has been a real interesting, probably a podcast for, you know, like the work environment kind of posts some of the, whether that's COVID or for us here, Helene, right? I think there was such an awakening for people's emotional self and mental health and care, which is, I think, a great thing.

Kirsten (01:01:06.689)
Yeah, like what am I going to go to do work for? What is my value proposition? I'm not going to work someplace that doesn't give me joy or whatever. But there's also been this into also first and I don't know exactly where it has come from this overlay of but that's just on my schedule, right? Like that I am that I'm not accountable to the organizational rules that those don't apply to me. Right. And

I'm kind of funny sometimes I said so that's called entrepreneurial ship. You can go work for Heather Gates. That's fine. hey, that's not here. That's not here. And it's not because I don't think it would be great if everybody could work less and get better. All those things are great. But the reality check is you have

Clients that are in the building in a certain time. and so that again, in some ways, culture expectations. cultures, and I have found this, especially in a lot of the caregiving fields that I'm in, in this kind of altruistic field, we only live in the empathy space, right? And so therefore, we assume that if I care for my patient, my resident, my whatever, all my other behaviors are tolerable because I care so much.

and we've been spending a lot of time in a couple of different environments I've been in, that took a lot of work to say it really is both, right? And so, and that, for some reason, that still is really challenging, and it's not age, it's not only the young people, the poor young, right? No, it's not. It is just a general workforce in our world right now that I think is...

maybe swinging back into the how do I find balance of my own joy, my own self-work, my own mental health, right, plan for me and I need to work within maybe constraints or boundaries that I don't love. Yeah. Right. Or rules that I don't wish applied. Yeah, that is that is true. Yeah. And that I think is where sometimes

Kirsten 
I have heard, right, to be realistic for those out there, right, this can be sometimes feel fatiguing to a leader having to actually do empathy and accountability, because it's like, I don't know why I'm, you know, somebody said, I feel like to teach people to adult, you know, or someone made a comment like that, gosh, why do people just not know? And then that goes back to, well, were you clear? Right, again, I think we just make these broad assumptions, right, and unless you're curious at every person that works together.

We come from that beautiful rainbow of different lived experiences. So of course it's gonna be different. And so if you're not clear and you just think, again, hope is not a strategy that is just gonna work out, you're gonna create more mess for yourself. And just by finding that language, finding your voice as a team leader, as a...top 

executive, it doesn't matter as a colleague and just saying, hey, right, let's have to speak a common language. Let's hold each other. I'm going to do my personal accountability. And then we're going to layer this in and speak this kind of common space. 

Heather
And check assumptions. Like one of the things you just, one of the things I just heard you say that we haven't really put a pin in is assumptions. Yeah. In that even if it's in the

preparing for the conversation or whatever it is, I think so often we're walking around with assumptions. So that is to me the purpose of a difficult conversation is to check some stories and assumptions, right? The story I'm telling myself is this, what's really happening. So whether it's assumptions about what I think people understand, I find that I get stuck in this still, because it all is clear in my head. And I assume even when you've been working

with people for a long time that like they know what I mean. Yeah. And that actually, maybe not. And then I'm like, oh, I'm sorry, did I not say that out loud? That's just in You're not in my actual brain cells. And sure, do we wish people could read our minds? Yeah. I mean, I could go down a whole sidebar.

Kirsten 
And bringing humor to that being like, well, again, that to me is those, it's a layering, right? Humor, it's such a tool, right? You're at that leadership meeting, you're at that team meeting and you're like, well, I sure messed up and didn't model this, right? Showing some of that really professional vulnerability.

That's all part of it. You can't have just one piece. It's like the seven layer bean dip. I don't know. This is great. I be hungry. haven't had lunch today. 

Heather
So the seven layer bean dip we'll just consider is the toolkit. So let's just name that often whatever training you went through, it likely did not include a lot of these things. Now, then what? There are books we've mentioned, Crucial Accountability. crucial conversations, difficult conversations, there are trainings, there are excellent trainings, human-centered work that's happening to help honor. So I think some of what we can do as leaders and teams is not assume that people have these skills. So part of it is motivation, part of it is skill. And we, as leaders, and practice, how do we practice that together? How do we model that? How do we make the trainings and tools available and honor?

honor that that's true as we're creating culture and then be weird sooner to step in and do it. One thing I said, I wanted to talk about the personal side of this, which we're not going to have time to today, but I just want to name like for me, like I said, I kind of show up, I lean on empathy with other people. I lean accountability for myself. Yes. So I'm working on different sides of the and depending.

Yeah. So that's just something I know. Because in any given situation, my assumption actually is not that you messed up, but that I did. And so I'm all in empathy for you and accountability for me. So that's just something, again, the more you know, the more you know. Sure. And it helps you check assumptions, both directions. helps hold now, let me remember that, I'm a human worthy of empathy also turns out. Yeah, look at that. Look at that. Maybe I'll make a podcast about it.

Heather 
so that this dance is just one, think I too, like you, think part of it is just an intention. I value both. My business name is human centered strategy. That is both. Because I believe that we need both to do the thing that we're here to do. We all, not all, but a lot of people on this listening are showing up in service to a very big mission. We are being paid to

do a thing in service to a very big mission. And so how we hold the and of that not just we're here to do, like we are still humans doing that, not robots. Thank goodness. Right? This is another podcast. But so it's tangly. So it's some grace if this feels awkward and bumpy.

One of the things that I would- a little bit, try something. And find somebody. Yeah, find somebody, find- A coach is, I think, a good example. So a coach you can say, because I coach leader, this is not a plug, but I'm just saying there are people out there who even if you're like, hey coach, I have to have a difficult conversation, you can role play that with somebody. Because it's hard to find a place where you can really work through these things. 

Kirsten
When you're checking in with your team, again, in either seat of that relationship, what is the content of this check-in? Is it just how they're doing on your metrics? Or are you asking someone, how did you do with that difficult conversaion? How did that go, right? I I think being curious as the leader to the team that you're leading, right?

Heather
Support others as they do that. We haven't talked about that. We've been talking about how to have the difficult conversation, but as leaders, it's our job to help support other people who need to be doing this also. 

Kirsten
Can you imagine if it spreads, that whole concept of team of teams, have all these folks. having really honest dialogue. Really honest dialogue. You don't think that there's going to be a hum to your organization. Especially it's grounded in trust and care. Oh my gosh, isn't that what we all want? Then can put the hard goal ahead.

Kirsten 
put that whatever we need to because if we can love each other and tell the truth, let's go. And then we can laugh about it. Somebody said in the training the other day, was two departments that hadn't seen each other and they said, I didn't know you were again, I didn't know you deal with this too. And it's like, my gosh, goes back. get together in human y'all. Yeah, just human. just get together in human. This shit's hard. Right? Somehow, right? People are like this management thing of people like

It is not easy task. And wow, by the way, I didn't really get training and it's fantastic. Great. Sign me up. Let's sign up. At a really complex time. Awesome. That's really complex. Yeah. Our whole VUCA conversations. Yeah, let's go for it. Right. And so I think when you have people, if you find yourself working with individuals who are curious and want to go on that journey, just start talking about it. Take that little baby step. Try one thing.

watch a video together, Google something, just start saying like, am I the only one that shared language. Some shared language. Shared video, shared book, shared something. You don't have to come out with the team charter, please. Right, and the first go-around, baby step, take the step, right? Move it forward. Surely there's a YouTube clip or something. I'm sure there is. And there will be, I think, just some normalization, some rooted in laughter, some shared leadership. How can we do better? How can I show up for each other?

And then it kind of is like, it feels know what I just thought about? 

Heather
Send them this podcast. There you go. Cause y'all are listening. There you go. I love it. I hope this was helpful. It was so good. Send it to your people and just say, Hey, let's start talking about this. Do we want to have empathy and accountability here? And what does that mean to us? I love it. Like just let this be the homework, a conversation starter to say, what is holding empathy and accountability look like here? And are that what are the

What are ways that we're doing that well and what are ways that we could dial it up? know, kind of where are we on the dial? We're all on the dial somewhere. And the dial can change at different times in our life. can change. But we have two dials, I guess, is part of what I want to offer with this one. Kirsten, thank you for digging in with this to me. We just basically, you know, identified four other topics that we need to further consider more, which I know happens.

Heather 
Thanks everybody for hanging in with us. Thanks Heather, been awesome. Just see you if you're out there trying to figure out the messiness of humaning and you know doing all this self and together and at all the levels. So we're right there with you trying to figure it out. you're loved. Yeah we love y'all. It's work worth doing. You know it's hard and it's messy and...

I've for whatever nerdy reason for a long time had to quote hanging in my room, like far and away the best prize offer, press prize life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing. So I'm always thinking about work worth doing, because there's a lot of things we could spend our energy on. I think honest, courageous, loving conversations in service to human flourishing is work worth doing.

So thank you all for doing the work you're doing. Thanks for coming to talk to me about it today. Y'all share this, talk about it. let us know what you think. We'll see you next time. Sounds good. Bye.

Heather
The stand in the and podcast is supported by human-centered strategy where we help leaders and teams build connection and strategy in complexity so that everyone can flourish. To learn more or to work with us please visit us online at human-centeredstrategy.com or message me on LinkedIn.