Suzy: Welcome to the Wander Slow Family Travel Podcast. Today I am joined by Claudia. Welcome to the show. Please tell me more about you and your family.
Claudia: Thank you, Suzy, for this opportunity. I am very happy; I think this is my first podcast! I'm from Italy, and I'm a journalist and a children's book writer. I've always traveled for my work, making a lot of reports. In the past, I lived in South America for some months and traveled with my husband, who is a photographer.
When I was pregnant, we were living in Barcelona, but then I missed my mom, my friends, and my city, so we decided to come back to Milan. My daughter was born in Milan, but then the pandemic happened, and we decided to travel a little bit again.
We decided to move to Spain and enroll our daughter in a school that was in nature because, during the pandemic, I thought it was a good idea to be outside with a small group of people. The plan was to stay here in Chiclana, where we actually live in the south of Spain in Andalucía, for three months. But this is our fifth year, and next will be the sixth. So plans change, life changes. I’m a journalist, and I always like looking for stories when I travel because I used to do that with my husband.
Suzy: How old is your daughter now?
Claudia: She's eight. She will be nine in September. She's spent more of her life in Spain than in Milan, but she has this feeling of connection between the two places. Now, every summer we go back to Italy and she's happy. Of course, she misses her life in Spain, but then we come back. It's hard, but it's so beautiful when you have two homes.
Suzy: Is she learning Spanish in school?
Claudia: Of course. When we first arrived here, it was hard because she didn't understand so much. But I have my own memories of this because I went to study in Barcelona when I was in university, and it took about three months for an Italian person to speak Spanish because it's quite similar. The grammar is close to Italian. So when she said, "I don't understand anything," I said, "Yes, I can understand, but don't worry because in a very short time you will be speaking." And it was like that; around Christmas, she started to speak, and within a year she was fluent.
Suzy: Is the family language at home Italian?
Claudia: Yes. People sometimes say, "You have to speak another language with your daughter so she can learn," but for me, it was impossible to speak in Spanish when I was in Italy, for example. It's natural for me to speak with her in Italian, and she speaks Spanish outside all the time.
Suzy: We do the same thing. At home, we speak English or my husband also speaks German, and then my kids are at a German school. But of course, most of the students are Spanish, so they've picked up a lot of Spanish. I think it's important to speak the languages of the family, especially if you travel back to Italy. It's great that she has that connection.
I know you also have a worldschool offering that we will talk about shortly, but before that, I'd love to hear more about your personal travel origin story.
Claudia: The last trip that we made that was quite unexpected was when we traveled for work to Tanzania and spent one month there. It was like a great experiment to take a long trip that was also for work with our daughter. We traveled, and if you are in Europe, it's very easy because in two hours you are in a different country. From Milan, in one hour we are in Switzerland or in France. So I've seen a lot of countries just because they are very close.
I'm very happy because I grew up in that period. It also helps a lot now in this crazy world. For me, growing up in this generation, it doesn't make any sense to speak about diversity in Europe because it's like a big house, really. We strongly believe in that. So I think that aside from the price and the carbon footprint, travel really opens your mind. The answer is not to stop traveling, but to travel in another way. I went to Greece by car and by train when I was 17. I think that this influenced me a lot, not just in my way of traveling, but in the way I think about other people and what I want. This is one of the reasons I thought it was a nice thing to create a co-living space, to have people from other countries around me.
Coming back to our last trip, we went to Tanzania to speak about menstrual justice for an NGO. We took our daughter, Tina, with us, and it was a very complete travel experience because it was hard, it was hot, and it was absolutely different. We did a safari, and we went to Zanzibar, which was nice. Then we worked in Dar es Salaam, which is a very hard city—not because it's dangerous, but because it's very big and has a hot vibe. For Tina, it was not easy. She spent a lot of hours bored or doing her homework, but I think it was a real experience because, thanks to the work, we entered people's homes and spoke with a lot of girls her age about an issue that will be hers sooner or later. Menstrual justice is about every one of us, even for men, even if they don't think so.
I think it was a great experiment. Now we know that we can travel with her quite everywhere. When we were coming back, we traveled with Turkish Airlines, which is very smart and offers you to stop in Istanbul for one day or up to two weeks. We stopped there for one week, and Tina said that she felt like Istanbul was her home. It was beautiful, the weather was perfect, and we stayed for one week. We walked in the Asian part, so we crossed the Bosphorus every time to go to the other side. It was really beautiful; it's a vibrant city. I have good feelings about it, and I'm happy that Tina felt at home because it was the same feeling I had the first time I went to Barcelona—that you can feel at home even if you don't understand a word and it's a new place for you.
Suzy: When you got back, what was your daughter saying about the trip?
Claudia: She speaks a lot about it, sometimes about the animals or the fish in Zanzibar. But the week that she came back to school, they did an exercise about "what are problems for you?" and she drew a lot of triangles crossing together. She said, "For me, the problems are these. One problem is connected to the other, is connected to the other." That is exactly what we saw when talking about menstrual justice—it is not just about menstruation, it's about politics, social issues, and religion. We don't exactly know what she brought with her from the trips, but I think she has a big luggage of things that she will explore in the future.
Suzy: It sounds like she learned that things are connected, and that even though there's an issue that you were there working on, it was bigger than just one issue.
Claudia: Yes. And I think that maybe when you travel, you don't realize exactly what you are bringing back with you. But maybe in months or years, you will make more connections. The more you travel, the more you learn and the more you understand and connect the points.
Suzy: You mentioned your daughter was in an outdoor school when you first got to Spain. I'd love if you could tell us more about your approach to education living abroad.
Claudia: I always went to public schools in Italy, apart from my university which was private, but only because what I wanted to study was there. I am not one of those people traumatized by school; I had beautiful teachers and professors, so I don't have anything against public school. Even if I know that the problems in Italy now are not the same as when I was younger, I was very optimistic when Tina started school. She started kindergarten when she was one, and in the second year, they closed for the pandemic, so we moved.
I chose this kind of outdoor school just because it was open-air, a small group, and perfect for the pandemic. It was just based on facts and data. But when she started, I realized that she was very happy. For me, it was a new adventure, and I'm always quite open to new adventures. So I said, "We'll see what will happen," and she's still happy. What we do is, in the afternoon, we do Italian homework at home for 30 minutes to an hour, depending on the day. Because she is unschooled from the Italian perspective, she has to do an exam in Italy every summer, and of course, you cannot learn Italian grammar at her school in Spain. So we need to balance this part.
Now, my opinion about education is that everyone is different. It depends a lot on what you desire. Sometimes we think there is a better option, but sometimes there isn't, or it takes a lot of energy and research to find one, and maybe you cross it and it's not better. I think that for how she is and how we are now, this is the best. I don't spend my days questioning if there is another school or if I want to change again. Not now. Maybe in two years, yes, but not in this moment. Tina is not competitive at all. They respect each other very well, they love each other, and they have a respect for nature, for the rules, for everything. Of course, this is not always possible in a public school when you have 25 or 30 kids jumping in a room. The problem isn't the public school itself, but the conditions in which you put a teacher to teach in public schools.
Suzy: I actually feel like our teachers are very involved and connect closely with the parents. We have parent delegates who work closely with the teachers so that the teachers do less admin work. It allows them to be more engaged in the classroom. Also, I think you're right. If you find something that's working well, it's great to enjoy it and be happy in the moment. Let's keep it going until something else presents itself.
You mentioned you're a journalist. Behind the scenes of every opportunity to live or travel to a new country are the financial and logistical sides. How are you funding your life in Spain?
Claudia: We basically stopped buying things, we rent out our apartment in Milan, and then we work. I write my articles, and I travel to Milan for some clients to do interviews and videos. My husband is a photographer, so sometimes he does weddings here or works for a real estate agency. He also has a lot of events in Milan.
Suzy: Are there direct flights between Seville and Milan, or do you fly from Malaga?
Claudia: We can travel from Seville, but from Chiclana to Seville, there is a bus. We need to program things quite well, but with our work, sometimes it's absolutely impossible because we are freelancers, so they can ask us to be there when they want. You can say yes or no, and depending on what they pay, if it's enough to cover what you spend. I can speak with you today and say everything is beautiful, and tomorrow be completely desperate.
Suzy: With freelancing comes certain levels of freedom. What type of journalism do you do?
Claudia: I do social reportage, basically. Human rights, gender issues. My style of journalism is to go to the places, and some years ago, that was possible because magazines paid. Now, magazines don't pay as much, so journalists often stay at home, reading the news and rewriting it.
Suzy: Any advice if someone wants to get into freelance writing?
Claudia: I'm sorry, but now I also think that to be a journalist, especially if you travel for a magazine, with all the fake news and what AI is able to do... I think now the work is just to verify if you can really share news and if that news is real. The responsibility that journalists have is huge because how can you really share something if you didn't verify it thousands of times before? Anything is possible now.
Suzy: Where do you see AI taking things?
Claudia: I can take any president of any country and make him say anything, and it could look absolutely real. People start to share, and as a journalist, how can you verify what part is true and what is not? Who made it? To find a real news story now is the hardest work.
Suzy: It's almost more important to make sure things are real and verify facts now more than ever.
Claudia: Yeah.
Suzy: I know that you have a worldschool offering in Andalusia. It falls under the Andalusia Nomad Moms. Tell me more about your experience with creating that and what's coming up for you.
Claudia: Everything started because I'm a journalist. I was writing an article about the life of digital nomads and was interested in the "shadow part" of the life that often looks like just beautiful places. I started to do a lot of interviews and entered some groups for digital nomads and worldschoolers because I was also interested in finding stories about families, not just young people. I met a lot of people and saw a lot of projects.
When I finished the article, I realized I didn't find any projects targeted for what I think is the most interesting group: mothers with children. Maybe because we are a very complex target, with a lot of needs, worries, and responsibilities. So I said, "Why?" Why don't I prepare a project here where we live? There is a place named Chiclana with beautiful beaches. So I said, why don't I rent a villa and invite mothers to come with their children and see what happens?
This was the first idea. I wrote a project with Canva one afternoon and shared it in the groups where I had been looking for people to interview. It was a big success; I received around 400 requests for information the first time. I spent three weeks on the computer, night and day, answering everybody. It worked. But now, what we have is a group of villas, all in a garden around a swimming pool. It is not so crowded.
Suzy: Maybe people want a little bit of their own space while being in a community with each other.
Claudia: Yes, because we come from this very individualistic society. On paper, it's beautiful to have co-living, but then you arrive and say, "I want to kill everyone." So yes, I changed the location, but now I'm super happy because they are super happy.
I am organizing the next one in October. My idea is to do it every October and every May because here, the season is the best for me. There are not so many people, but it's still summer in some way. You can go to the beach, you can use everything, but it's not crowded. We did two and we are going to do more in the future.
Suzy: It's perfect. Those are the best months to be there. I was looking because it was gorgeous, but rental prices for the summer can be crazy.
Claudia: Yes, but it was very quiet in May. It was a beautiful weekend, so there were people there, but it was not overwhelming. I love traveling during those off-seasons when there's still great weather and activities, but you're not in the rush of other people.
Suzy: So you said it's for one month. What is included?
Claudia: What we offer are the villas, which are very huge and big. The place is beautiful because it's five minutes from the beach, and Chiclana has a lot of restaurants and bars close to the beach, so it's perfect and very useful. Sometimes people don't want to rent a car, so every service is really five minutes walking. They've also just opened a big supermarket near the beach.
What is included is the place where people live. Then we offer activities outside, like my daughter's school with educators in the morning from nine to two. They go to the beach or the pine forest, depending on the weather and what they do. I think that time is important for the mother. Someone might come to work, but someone might also come to read a book. So I think it is important to have this period.
In the morning, we also offer activities for the mothers. There is one a week that is included, and others that I offer if you have more time and want to do more things. For example, this time I have a friend that is a very good choreographer and dancer, so we did a session of dance in nature. We also had a Flamenco class, we did pottery, and we did a creative writing workshop. I offer things to the mothers to stay together and do something because I think it is important to create bonds. We need friends all the time, and when we grow up, it's not easy. This is the perfect situation where you can really be yourself.
Staying for a month is not like staying for 10 days; there are normal days, days when you are tired or don't want to go outside. I'm giving a group of moms the opportunity to be themselves. We also have shared experiences of motherhood and education. I think that is very nurturing. I'm thinking about the mothers. Maybe you have a lot in common with a mother who has a 13-year-old daughter. But in society, we usually have friends whose kids are the same age as our own. But here you discover that you have a lot in common with a mom who has a kid of another age.
Children are privileged. If you can come for one month to a place, you are lucky. So your children will be happy in any way, even in their normal life. For one month, I try to think a little bit more about the mothers. This is why I recommend they feel free to do things. The first time we did this, we had a little girl who was 18 months old. She was super independent and spent all her time in the group. But a lot depends on your kid. On the other side, I think this time the oldest was 13. He has three sisters, so they were four. I think that's like the maximum age because when you get a little older, you need to do other things, which is absolutely normal.
So I think that can be the range. This time, for example, we had 19 kids from two years old to 13, but everything was beautiful because the oldest helped the smaller ones, and they played all the time together. It was really nice.
Suzy: I love those opportunities where multi-age children can play together. I think they learn a lot more. I love that you mentioned that moms are thinking about their kids, but you are thinking about the moms and how to make sure they have a good experience too. That must let them relax and enjoy their time together even more. You just finished a hub. Do you have a memorable moment that you'd like to highlight?
Claudia: The first one, I was very genuine maybe, and I thought that just because people stay together, they speak a lot about themselves, but that's not always the case. So I think the best moment in the first one was at the end when we met. It was a rainy morning and we were in our pajamas with chocolate that I brought. I said, "I want to listen to your opinion and understand how you felt and how it can be better next time." That was a moment where we really shared and expressed what we thought. That moment was super important.
This is the reason why in the second one, I created this moment at the beginning, and it was super powerful. It was the second day, and everybody was still with jet lag. Women really shared. It was not just, "I'm here, I'm happy to be here," but it was, "I've just been through this, and I'm here because I'm looking for something." The conversation was very deep. We spent five hours, and it was very powerful because I think that was the basis for constructing all the months and all the relationships.
Then I have a lot of other memories. For example, there were two kids, three and five, who came from the Czech Republic and didn't speak any English when they arrived. On the last day, the smaller one just said his first word in English, and the mom was super happy. The other one, when he arrived, he cried and was sad. But from the second week on, he changed completely because the educators are very good. This project would not be possible if I don't have very good educators who are able to understand. The relationship you create in a month is not what you can create in a year. So in a month, they have to go deep immediately to understand and be able to speak with the mothers if something happens or if they can do something for the kids. You have to be very prepared.
Suzy: It sounds great. What are the price points? Is it based by family or by the size of the accommodation they need?
Claudia: The price depends on the number of kids, basically. If you have one, the minimum price is €3,900. It grows depending on the number of kids. If you have four, for example, like last time, a woman paid €5,200, something like that.
Suzy: And that includes accommodation and all the activities?
Claudia: Accommodation, all the activities, an event when you arrive and an event when you leave. And one activity in the afternoon per week for the kids. Sometimes we have circles, sometimes other things. A gift that I give to everybody—a book. I spend weeks thinking about the perfect book for everyone, and normally I'm good at this. And a massage for the mothers. Then my husband is a photographer, so we always make beautiful portraits of the families that we give to them. We try to be very kind to everybody because we like to do it. My husband loves to take photos, and sometimes people don't have a real picture in their hands, so it's a beautiful memory that you bring with you.
Suzy: Moms are always behind the camera, so I'm sure it's helpful to get photos with their family. And you mentioned, is this primarily just moms and their children? What have you found makes up the families that join your hubs?
Claudia: The only thing is that you come with your kids. It doesn't matter if you are single or you have a partner, because you can be single in June and married in October. I cannot say, "No, you are not single, you have to stay home." I think that is not important if you have a husband or if you don't, because motherhood is something that is really shared. Also, I think that when we are in a family, we are a different person than when we are with our girlfriends. I'm interested in the energy that women create when they are together.
Suzy: Sometimes people ask if their partners are not welcome.
Claudia: No, they are welcome to stay in a hotel on the street. I cannot forbid anyone to come to Spain, of course. But this is about moms and kids.
Suzy: I love that. You found a focus that really helps create an opportunity for moms to thrive for this month together.
Claudia: The time really flies. People arrive and say, "What did I do? I have to stay here for one month?" because maybe you arrive tired, there are a lot of kids crossing and jumping around. But then time flies, and every time it's the same. The last week is, "Oh, but we have to say goodbye, we have to do a lot of things." So believe me, one month is nothing. And when it ends, it's sad.
Suzy: It goes by quickly. And what are the dates for your fall offering?
Claudia: October 1st to the 29th, in the middle of the week. Experience taught me that it is better to fly during the week. Maybe prices can be cheaper. A lot of people also stay a little bit longer and travel later.
Suzy: Part of keeping it real, though, is discussing the realities of hub offerings and worldschooling. Are there any struggles or challenges that you or your hub are experiencing at this time?
Claudia: The first time, I was super worried that everybody would be happy and satisfied. So maybe my attitude was more like, "What do you need? How can I help?" But then I thought that we are all around 30 and 45 years old. They are moms, they travel alone with their kids, so I have to assume that they're independent and able to do anything. The first time, I think I really started to enjoy the experience around the middle, when I noticed that everyone was happy and things were going well. This time I was more relaxed. It was easier to enjoy all the moments.
Suzy: Because you did this because you wanted to have friends, so you can't be the waitress all the time.
Claudia: Exactly. And it's a real pleasure when the other people are happy and you notice that you are giving something even more than what you thought. You think, "What if they're not happy? What if they need something and I'm not there?" You have a lot of worries because they are there because you said it's beautiful, so it has to be beautiful. I have to offer what I promise.
Suzy: That can feel like some pressure, I'm sure. To finish on a positive note, what are some current wins that you're experiencing?
Claudia: I think I'm happy because it was like the confirmation that the vision I had was right. The moms who come are sad to leave at the end, and also the kids. I spend a lot of time hugging the kids who were here because they were sad to leave, and I said, "I'm happy that you are sad." Because this is part of the experience, that you have a lot of memories with you. And then I'm sure that when you arrive at home or at the airport and you find your father, your grandmother, or your friends, you will be happy again. This is just a moment because we are lucky, all of us. You are not escaping from something; you are coming here to do something because your mom decided it was a good experience for her and for you. But you're lucky at home, just like here. This experience adds something and maybe opens your view. I think that you have to be very brave to do something like this because it's a month, it's another country, and it's with strangers. So you have to be brave, and I have a lot of respect for all the women that come.
Suzy: That's beautiful. If people want to learn more about your hub, about the Andalusia Autumn offering that's coming up in October, where can they learn more?
Claudia: I have an Instagram page, it's @AndalusiaNomadMoms, and you can find a lot of information and write to me there. Or we have a page, Andalusia Nomad Moms, on Facebook. Or maybe even easier, you can reach me by my Facebook page, which is Claudia Bellante, B-E-L-L-A-N-T-E.
Suzy: What is October looking like? Do you have some families signed up already? Do you have a limit based on the size of the accommodations?
Claudia: Yes. For me, we can consider a group starting from six families. Now we have around four. So come, because it'll be beautiful! Again, the age depends on you and your kids. I suggest from one year old. October is beautiful and it'll be really fun.
Suzy: It sounds lovely. This has been so great to hear about your life in Chiclana, your travel story, your family, your education journey, as well as your offering there. It sounds like an awesome opportunity for families to really connect and spend time together. I think it's especially helpful to focus on the moms, so thank you for thinking of us.
Claudia: If you decide to come, it is because you want to know other people and because you have this need. So you will be sure that when you arrive, there will be people ready to listen to you and to support you.
Suzy: Sounds beautiful. Thank you so much for chatting with me. I'll make sure to link everything in the show notes so if people want to join you this fall, they can connect with you.
Claudia: Thank you for reaching me. I was expecting this, a beautiful birthday present.
Suzy: I'm happy I get to spend your birthday with you! This is beautiful. I do hope you can get outside and enjoy some beautiful sunshine today as well. Thank you so much.
Claudia: Thank you, Suzy.
