Bordeaux En Primeur 2025 Weather Special

"Two Englishmen talking about the weather..." Wine-Searcher's editor Don Kavanaugh bravely entertains David Allen MW and Olly Styles as the pair battle it out over the effects of the weather in the 2025 Bordeaux growing season.

In the blue corner, David Allen MW defends Bordeaux estates from accusations that the weather patterns over the 2025 growing season (noteworthy as they are) actually have no bearing on the properties of the final wines produced in the region – a charge leveled by Olly Styles, in the red corner, in a recent opinion piece on the website.

Will it go the full 12 rounds?

ABOUT THE WEEK IN WINE

The Week in Wine goes out every Monday morning so that you can turn up to work with great talking points from the latest news across the world of wine.

Hosted by wine-searcher editor Don Kavanagh with wine writer Olly Styles – who also produces the podcast – nearly all of the stories we discuss can be found on https://www.wine-searcher.com/magazine

You can get in touch with us at editor@wine-searcher.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Got done that completely wrong. I've introduced myself. I haven't introduced myself. Well, why don't we start again? All right, we'll start again. Hello, listener. Hello. Hello, everybody, and welcome to a very special edition of Wine Searcher's Week in Wine Wine Podcast. That's a lot of wines to say in one word. If anybody's gonna say it, I'm the one to do it. I'm Don Kavner, I'm the editor of Wine Searcher. And joining me today for our very special edition are uh my usual offsider in the studio, Ollie Styles. Yes, thank you, Ollie. Identify yourself by your name. That's wonderful. And on the other side we have Dave Allen MW. David Allen MW, who um formerly of this parish, your uh wine director here and so forth. And you still obviously you still write for us and you still you still contribute stories to us. Now, but the reason we're all here today in a very small studio with very, very little oxygen in the room. Terrible acoustics as well. Um, the reason is that Ollie wrote a story about how the weather in Bordeaux is probably not as big a factor as it used to be, or at least it doesn't appear to be, given that everybody was talking about the weather, and yet the wines seemed to be. Everybody said that the wines were effectively classic wines in many cases.

SPEAKER_05 1:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Now, David, you're not a hundred percent in agreement on this one, and you wanted to come in and perhaps present an alternative view.

SPEAKER_03 1:27

I I think I think there were some details that Ollie was skeptical about in terms of the levels of acidity, and and I actually thought that maybe those were factors that hadn't really been explained particularly well in some of the coverage I've read, and I I I felt also hadn't really been perhaps explained particularly well in some of the literature that that that I saw from the producers. The key point that I was thinking about was you talking about, well, why are the acidities so high? Surely 30 millimetres of rain isn't going to help increase acidity to that extent. And and actually to me, I was in Bordeaux for three weeks and I was sort of struggling with the why are the acidities so good on this, because they're very, very noticeable from the outset. I mean, I think your skepticism was perhaps has somebody been adjusting them. Personally, I felt they they these weren't wines that tasted as if they'd been interfered with. I thought they felt they had wonderful purity. And so the answer was somewhere else, and I think it was really only in the second week that I was there that I spoke to Fabian Tijian, um, the winemaker at uh Smith Hope Lafitte. Yep. And uh he sort of said, well, they they'd actually had a really massive temperature shift through the day, the diurnal temperature variation. So there's been a lot of top-line coverage about actually this was warmer than 22, but in 2022 they didn't have that. And I uh a lot of the notes that I've seen from the chateaus, I mean, for instance, preparing for this, I went back to the notes I've got from Smith Ot Lafitte, and they don't even mention it in there. So I think I think a lot of the reporting has been done at a sort of a high level without what is actually quite an important detail. So you're talking about diurnal temperature variation about diurnal.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

My understanding is that diurnal temperature variation was, if not more significant in 2022 than it was in 2025. And looking at looking at some of the weather reports coming out from there, the actual fluctuations in 2022 were higher. Well only by we're talking like half a degree, and again, it's over averages. So you have to you have to be wary of these things, and that we're going to end up talking about numbers and percentages and small things like that. But my understanding is that diurnal temperature shifts are similar throughout, and certainly that in from my understanding that in 2022 diano diurnal shift was greater.

SPEAKER_03 3:49

Oh no, I I mean my discussions I had were the opposite. Um in the, you know, so you've you've got two temperature spikes, and I I mean the the person I've found a note from who sort of described it best was Shadow Olivier, and here they're talking about the the heat wave striking in August. They say temperature has exceeded 35 degrees for 10 days, peaking at 40.5 degrees C on August 11th. However, the diurnal temperature range, for instance, 11 degrees C to 34.9 on August the 7th, um, and there was some rainfall as well, um, allowed the vines to recover from the intense heat. Yeah. And so I think I I I think that I think that's one factor. I think possibly the other factor that one needs to think about is the fact that these were really quite concentrated grapes. I mean, I've seen figures suggesting that a grape that would normally weigh 1.2 grams was was weighing sort of uh 0.9 or 0.8 grams. So if you're getting that concentration, of course you're concentrating acids as well as um those levels of heat and that amount of heat, even with a diurnal shift, which you'd find in any region there's always diurnal shift, you would still lose a significant amount of malic acid and overall acid in the berries.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

I mean, my point effectively was that we talk about these huge temperature spikes, but in the end, if the wines that you produce from them are fresh and pretty and classic, what's the point in mentioning the temperature spikes? I mean, like um I wrote down, what is it, Rob Smith MW wrote that in 2022, for example, the wines had unexpected freshness. So, what is the point in talking about a hot vintage? When you talk about hot vintage, it's so that people are prepared to be able to sort of say, you know, ah, I taste in the, you know, this this vintage tastes hot, um, I reckon it's 2022. My problem, and I pointed out out in my piece, if you're an MW student, for example, and you're sitting in the mask's wine exam, and you come across a classic fresh Bordeaux with lots of concentration, what what vintage is it going to be from? Oh, don't tell them that because they've just been sitting this week, obviously. Well, yeah, of course. No, but a load of people there. No, well, I mean, but panic, but rightly so, I think. I mean, if if if you cannot identify that there are it's obviously a hot vintage, it goes on with 2022. And I've written I wrote about this back in 2023 as the 22 bit was coming out.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

If the wines are fresh, what what is the point in talking about the weather? Well, but the weather is actually reflected more in the um intensity and the rightness of the talons.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Right. Well, yeah, so that's what you think.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

You should be able to identify 2025 from the time that's right. I think I think if you're using a single factor to identify any wine, you know, you can work on that. You need to see the whole thing in context. I I it really just was that there was some really impressive balance, and I think the um the weather really did show up a lot of factors in in um 2025. I I mean one of the first places that I was visiting was was around Saint Emilio, and I'm tasted from a number of chateaux that are on the limestone coats, and just the freshness and intensity of Merloths off those sites was absolutely beautiful because of the fact that there is in a hot arid vintage, then actually had good rain in April and there was water availability to the the the plant from the soils. So uh yes, you should reference the soils with regard to that, but I but actually I think the heat so the heat does show, or it doesn't? Yeah, I think it does, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

So you should be able to detect 2025 from the there is a perceived heat.

SPEAKER_03 7:35

I mean Well, I th I think you should know about 2025 that that there is this combination of ripeness, richness. I mean, some producers had reasonable alcohols. I mean 14% wasn't unusual for people who picked that a little bit later. Um, but at the same time, even then, the fact that the alcohols were in balance allowed perfumes to show. So, yes, there were wines labelled as 14% alcohol, but I assume a lot of those were 13.9, 13.8, whereas at other time times they might have been 14.1, 14.2. I think you need to judge the vintage on the whole set of parameter rather than just sort of looking at um. So, what are we looking at then? I mean, is it is it a vintage that's hot? More a vintage that's dry. And how does that show? Just in the concentration of tannin in the white? It shows in the way that the different soils reacted. I mean, it's really interesting to try. I spent a day uh tasting pom rolls, and I I was very fortunate. I tried Le Pin and Pertruse more or less back to back on the same day. And and you had uh Le Pin, which is I mean, both so both attention essentially pure Merlot, Le Pin, which has much more gravel soil, much lighter soils, which was ethereal, it was elegant, uh, it was beautifully perfumed, whereas patruse with its face oils was that much richer and sort of fuller and had that structure to it.

SPEAKER_02 8:59

And you think you'd be able to say that in a blind lineup you could spot those differences? What do you because I mean the the thing with the differences apparent? I mean, I yeah, but then is it is are they are they more are they more different because of vintage or more different because of soil?

SPEAKER_03 9:14

It's a combination of the two. I mean, I think the the the weather has brought out the um the characteristics of the soil. I mean, another another wine that really struck me as you know standing out from a tasting was is going to Libas Cass, and their one of their other properties is um potensac. And I think of potensac is really sort of old-fashioned carrot, yeah. You know, something with a bit of structure and that sort of thing. And evidently potensac have got uh a portion of their Merlot is an old vineyard on limestone. And it was just this beautiful perfumed red plum fruit came sort of jumping out of the glass, really, really you know, just showing a point of difference there.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

I'm very sort of skeptical because I think we've we've gone down this direction of talking about individual estates when uh we're trying to bring together an entire vintage and say 2025 means this, and yet what you're saying is that you actually need context and you need to know what the soils are in each estate, and that they all produce different things, and that my sort of shorthand would be actually any talk about weather in Bordeaux in the last five years is kind of redundant because you're still going to get nice classic wines, whatever, and trying to work out which one is which, either through vintage or through estate, is almost impossible.

SPEAKER_03 10:32

I'm not I'm I'm I'm actually not disagreeing with your point there. Right, because I mean I was more disagreeing with your skepticism as to how genuine some of the acidities are.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

Okay, well let's go onto that onto that point. Let me read you out in no particular order, but there is an order. The alcohol and pHs of Chateau Angelus for the last five years, these are all from tastings that were taken on premier. So start with the alcohol. 14.5 pH, which is your level of acidity and freshness, three six five, three point six five next vintage, alcohol, thirteen point five, pH three point six five next vintage, alcohol fourteen point five, pH three point six five, alcohol thirteen point five, pH. Correct. The outlier, alcohol fourteen, pH, three point six. Those are the last five inches in order from twenty twenty actually all the way to twenty twenty-five. The lowest pH, I had the freshest wine was the one that came out in twenty twenty-five. And you get like uh to me, I look at that and I see three point six five a lot. But I saw it in um yeah, a number of estates. Smith Island Feet, for example, there's like I think four vintages out of the last five, three point six five. There's my skepticism. But I don't think you can have five years in which and the temperatures were very different across those five years, and yeah, you have basically the same pH across five integers.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

That's a good point.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

But at the same time, uh that that's only that's only completely valid if every other factor is the same, if they were picking on the same date every year. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

And but and yeah, but if but then you know, then and and these so you can shift your parameters. And so you can say, and and like, you know, if you look at some of these estates, you look at when they harvest, I think it was Trotnor Mondo, um spent basically a month harvesting. And so your your your variations across there are huge are gonna be pretty pretty wide in terms of the the fruit you're getting out of these wines, especially given that you're gonna have rain halfway through, and that your ability to then blend to what you like is gonna be greater, and you're gonna be able to hit these numbers, you're gonna be able to hit 3.65 if that's your number. But then that's more to my point, is it doesn't really matter what the vintage are throwing at you because whatever happens, you can either pick early, you can pick late, you can do it over several passes, you can you don't even necessarily need to acidify or use reverse osmosis or anything like that, but you can fabricate these wines to be in a in an envelope and in a box, and that actually, when we sit there and talk about the weather, all we're doing is we're just creating noise and puff around something that is kind of devoid from the weather. It doesn't really matter what gets thrown at these estates, they've got so much available to them.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Oh, I mean, the idea is clearly that 3.65 is the sweet spot. Now, obviously, the other thing is that all these different estates are all going to be marginally different from each other depending on microclimates, depending on soil types, depending on varieties, even, um, and which clones of those varieties we're talking about. So there's there are incremental tiny, tiny nuanced differences.

SPEAKER_05 13:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

And as anybody who's listened to this podcast will know I'm not a man for nuance, normally. Um, but I will I will suffer some talk of it today. Actually, I will suffer some talk of it today. But I I do think that so the the problem I have with it is either we look at everything in isolation or we look at nothing in isolation. We either look at the entire sort of not necessarily the entire region of Bordeaux, but the sub the main sub-regions, the Madoc, Grav, Pesacleyan, and the well, even if you just want to go left back, right back. But if you're looking for the out and saying, oh well, the reason this one's different is because it's got slightly different soil. But you can't say that the Madoc wines were all great because of this. You have to go, well, these were great, this was great, this was great, this was great. Surprisingly enough, this one, quarter of a mile down the road, wasn't great. So, what do we what do we look at? Or do we look at do we and we're talking to people who are who know enough about this to know that you can't just say it was a hot vintage in Bordeaux or it was a wet vintage in Bordeaux because it won't be the same all over? It's a spread out area. So, how are we supposed to, as writers, as communicators? God, I hate that word wine communicators, but uh that phrase, but in that role, how do we approach Bordeaux? Do we speak about individual estates or do we talk about sub regions? Do we talk about appellations? It's a question of how granular do we get, in which case you get to the point where there's no point in telling people what Poyak was like because people who like Poyak will like certain properties in Poyak and they'll only buy from those properties. In fact, you can almost say that about the whole of Bordeaux traditionally.

SPEAKER_03 15:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good point. Actually, I don't know. I I mean from my point of view, I think actually I I found 2025 very difficult to put into an individual box. There were a number of chateau that did things very differently. I mean, my my reaction to Chateau Margot, which is a wine that people have absolutely raved about, was what's going on here? Because I I think perhaps conditioned by my own pre-existing idea of what Margot should be like, based on the sort of wines that were made that when Paul Pontanier was there, to find that in a vintage where the wines were delicate and perfumed, that Margot had actually made a wine that was 14% alcohol and actually was quite tannic and needed a bit of time in the glass to open, wasn't giving an immediate perfume. And they had quite deliberately picked later than everybody else because they looked at the weather, they looked at the conditions of their fruit to actually we can hang this out and we can make something exceptional there. And you know, people in general seem to have enjoyed that. But I mean, actually, my initial impression until I thought it through a bit further, was that I preferred Raus San Segward because it had the more immediate perfumes there. So I you know, the idea that you can put the entire Margot into one box is absolutely difficult.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

But then that leads us on to another question as well. That means are we looking at are we judging the wine as a wine, as wine itself, or are we judging it as Margot?

SPEAKER_05 17:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

I mean, if it's if it's an absolutely beautiful wine, but it doesn't taste like the previous 50 vintages, is it still a good wine? Or is it just, oh, it's a good wine, but it isn't Chateau XYZ? I mean, it's that this is the prop the major problem I have with Bordeaux, to be honest, is that the idea that it's frozen in time, that it's encased in amber, it's preserved, and that the 1855 decisions, regardless of any change in the past, like in the in the interim, will remain that way in secular secularum. It's it's just there will be no change, and it will Margot will always taste like this, Latour will always taste like this, despite the fact that everything has changed. Yeah, now that and I'm not just talking just since 1855, but things have changed since the 60s and the 70s. For God's sake, uh Petrus was a joke in the 60s. Nobody wanted to buy it, nobody was interested in it really until the Mooks family took it over and improved everything. I mean, it's it's not a fabled wine going back 200 years. I mean, it is a wine going back 200 years, and it's rightly fabled these days, mostly for the prices it and indeed for the quality of the wines now. Did you go back and get a petrous from the 50s? And it's nothing like what patruse became in the 80s. Um, so at what point are we really just fooling ourselves by saying, oh, well, you know, it it it's it's a good wine, but it's not true to well, this is not this is my problem with the idea of context in tastings because context is brought out to mean a lot of different things and to a certain degree flatters but also opens a window onto what the hell is actually going on.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

So a lot of and I've I've heard major tasters say that they always rate, for example, on premier tastings in the context of the vintage. A 99 point wine in 2000 and was it 23 was the wet vintage? Was it 24? 24 was not quite 24 wasn't the great vintage. A 99-point wine in 2024 is not a 99-point wine in 22. Yeah. 22 wine, a 99-point wine in 2022 is going to be better than a 99 point wine in 24. And that you might be skeptical about, but the reasons become obvious when you start to look at aged wines. Because what we look for when we taste young wines, balance, complexity, intensity, you you might not necessarily find those in older wines. So if you're looking for intensity in a 1945 mouton, you might be sorely disappointed if you're going blind.

SPEAKER_05 20:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:00

Like older wines will not have a great deal of intensity. They're older. And yet we still give them, we judge them by different parameters because of their age.

SPEAKER_03 20:10

Yeah, if you find intensity in a wine of that age, it's uh Yeah, it's doing pretty well.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

So which so which means effectively that 99 point wines or any wine score should always have an asterisk beside it. Absolutely. Saying in context of the vintage. And yet, what about for wines? Any any any score is you can't.

SPEAKER_03 20:26

Well, of course, and I think of course it does. But I I think also perhaps when Holly's saying that, I think you have to bear in mind that a lot of people, when they're giving on premise scores, will give a range. I I I absolutely get that. And with the idea that I get the whole idea is that you're trying to predict the future. Become more sort of comparable as yeah, once the wine's toasted in bottle. But but there is a whole thing about is Bordeaux set in stone or is it changing? And I it was really interesting. There's one one wine really stood out for me. Again, it was a wine that I I had to spend time to get my head around. Du Crubocayou. Because uh people sort of say these days, if you talk about IPTs when you taste, they say, Oh, we don't worry about that anymore. But actually, you know, quite a few people know I sorry, IPT for anybody who doesn't know is the the scale of 10 in there. So a lot of a lot of the top wines were coming in in 80, 85 IPT um in terms of density. Did could bouquet you 100. Well, uh my memory I could be out my one or two there. But you know, the idea that this is a structured hefty Cabernet Sauvignon for long aging, and it was one of the few wines that actually stood out to me like that. I mean, uh there was a fair amount of density to something like Pichon Comte. But you looked at the numbers and I I I'm quoting these from memory, so I could be slightly out, but it was in the mid eighties, eighty four or something like that. And and you think, well, okay, that it in in years gone by, if you'd gone for a top vintage, a hot vintage, a vintage of the decade, you'd be looking for IPTs up around the nineties. But a lot of people have pulled back from that. And I think there's a lot of there's a lot of emphasis on making more subtle wines. I in one of the articles I I I wrote, I mentioned the fact that uh La Lagune, an estate that it's a third growth. It's perhaps not uh high up people's buy lists. And over the last 20 years has been run by Caroline Frey, who's turned it into a wine that's really good value in that sort of mid crew classe level. And then um Caroline has moved on to Switzerland and she's now looking after her estates in the mountains. Um, and uh they've changed their consultant, they chat and they've completely changed their approach. There was a I mean, a portion of the wine wasn't even aged in oak, uh some of the rest was aged and opp4-eye. They were reducing the amount of time they were doing maceration, they were making it a much more approachable style of wine. And in some ways, it was quite funny because actually uh as it was developing in the glass, you could suddenly see the terroir and the power uh that I expect from Le Lagoon actually showing through despite everything that had been done. Um there's a side of me that thought, well, I'm not sure I approve of this. So changing it as a third growth, you know, actually making some really good wine. But in another way, it's kind of like, well, uh if you're in a situation where, as I suspect they possibly were, that's not an easy wine to sell in the current market. Well, what are people doing to change the style and make these wines more accessible and you know, more contemporary, earlier drinking for people? I'm not sure whether it's the right approach, but you've got to salute them for the actually making this sea change in style and and and doing something different.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Do you think do you think perhaps that that has something to do with people stepping out from under the shadow of their fear of Robert Parker? It was a massive influence, he was a massive influence on Bordeaux. Yeah. I mean, anybody who denies that is just talking horse shit. I mean, he really was. Um, and as a result, there was the entire move towards the Michelle Rollandization of a lot of wines on Bordeaux. People wanted to get that big style, that Parker style. And now they don't have to anymore. He's not reviewing the wines anymore. Um, and to be honest, wine advocates probably isn't quite as influential as it once was. Um, I mean, who is these days? You know, in the this is a good thing. In a world I know, but in the world of AI, at least you'd realize there were humans who went there and did the hard yards and tasted the wines and came back and could justify their reasons for it, as opposed to today's AI sort of environment where you just go, is this a good wine? And Gemini tells you, fantastic! Colding the bits, we read. But you know, so I mean, is it that is it is it that people are just not um that people are sort of feel safer moving away from the sort of parkerized wines? I ask you too, because you two got much more experience on Bordeaux than I do.

SPEAKER_03 25:09

I mean, in some ways, in some ways, I I actually mourn their passing. I actually used to quite enjoy that sort of heavy toast, high ripeness style of wine, especially on a non route.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

I love an apple cabinet too.

SPEAKER_03 25:22

Yeah, exactly. Um but but I I maybe bring this back to sort of weather and diurnal temperature variations and acidity again. But I think there is an elegance and a freshness that you can get from Bordeaux that actually perhaps was lost in some of that. Yeah. I mean, I think during the the period of um Parker's dominance, maybe Margot was a region that lost out enormously. Yes, I imagine that was. I I mean, of of a wine that I absolutely adore. Imagine offering nuance in a wine. Well, a wine I absolutely adore from Margot is uh Chateau Dissant. Because it can be so perfumed, so elegant, controlled wine, delicacy, it just beauty ages or brand canternack and otherwise they age beautifully. Um but they're not necessarily full throttle Parker wines. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

So I suppose the question is then. I mean, I we we haven't, I don't think we have solved the question of the weather, and I don't think I'm going to get you two to agree on anything necessarily with it. But um, I mean, I I realize that this is one of our longer podcasts, and I I don't want our listener um to be overly tired. But um, I mean, it's the the wonderful thing about Bordeaux is it's so endlessly fascinating and you can argue about it forever and ever. And not alone that you can only you you can put away a subject only to dig it up, disinterro it further down the track, blow the dust off the box, and and start and start chewing on the ball again.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Yeah. I mean, I the my my problem would be that if you if if you can have these stylistic shifts and these stylistic changes, and you can say, okay, well, you know, your changing consultantologist is going to make these changes to the estate. That that level of change in flavour, certainly look at parkerization if you want, shows to me that any talk about weather or any idea that there is some kind of nature's controlling hand on this is redundant. Now that's uh a strong position and it's a provocative position, but it's probably one that I'd stick pretty close to. As to changes stylistically in Bordeaux, I think what happened in 2020 was that the estates really pushed the boat out in terms of they I think what they're doing, and this is just my personal sort of impression on this, Dave might agree, which is totally fine. I think what they're doing is they're trying to work out where they can find the market. So I think in 2020 they pushed the boat out big time in terms of like alcohol extraction of the lot. So the reaction wasn't necessarily favorable. And what we're seeing over these last five years is estates working out which way they might want to go. And Margot might be to that sort of point. It might, and you know, let's go into a certain degree. Do we put ourselves into this more heavy zone? Are we gonna try and be more terroir driven in a bit of commerce? Are we gonna focus more on freshness? Well, I think they might be finding their feet in terms of where they're gonna sit.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

The thing is now, are they gonna uh do you aim for an expression of terroir or do you aim for 3.65 pH?

SPEAKER_02 28:20

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

That's I mean that's that's I mean you've you've got a choice now. 3.65 is your terror. But but every now and again the circumstances will be such that whatever you pull off your your terroir will be at 3.5.

SPEAKER_03 28:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the argument. You know, it's just a terror showing itself. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think also perhaps there is some uh, as has been the case Bordeaux continuously over the last uh 30 years, um exploration of new techniques. Um I mean I don't think I've seen a lot written about the idea of hour poles or air poles, the idea that you break up your cap of skin using uh compressed air.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Yeah, if you're doing it at Bordeaux stop, it's pointless and it least a lot of gas.

SPEAKER_03 29:06

Well it changes it changes the style of a lot of wines. Um Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

That's my sorry Dave, but that's my that's my memories coming back of doing rummaging in uh in cellars in New Zealand. Is that what they're doing right now?

SPEAKER_03 29:20

Very widespread. I mean, uh if you look at the wines at Calon Segur, I think they're a much more supple style of wine, and I think that has a certain amount to say.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

So you're reducing it, reducing it too much.

SPEAKER_03 29:32

Um you can i it gives you a little bit more control. I mean, um Pompmell, I know they've just built enormous new cellars. Oh, yeah. Um, and that's been part of the changes they put in there. Um and I think Pompmell is actually sort of seen quite an improvement in quality. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

As long as it's not as long as the same with all technology, as long as it's judiciously applied, I think yes, it can microble. It can be good. But I mean it's it's well as anybody who's ever blown backwards into the straw that they get at their local fast food joint can tell you, it can be disastrous. And also overdoing it will eventually decarbonate your um your your drink much quicker. Um it will it will tire it out much quicker. Um, but yes, but listen, gentlemen, honestly, thank you very much for this. It's you've both been wonderful. I I genuinely thought that this was was going to be the most boring podcast in the history of of podcasting. It was gonna be this was gonna be two Englishmen talking about the weather. And it still was two Englishmen talking about the weather, and indeed it was two Englishmen talking about the weather, but it's still it man the Irishman managed to stay awake through it all.

SPEAKER_03 30:46

Oh, let me know if you've got your listeners left afterwards.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

So I will we we will check in with our listener, and um good to hear from you again, just to let us know you're all right. Well, in the meantime, I'd like to thank you both. I'd like to thank our listener, as I say, and um we will be we will come back to this again and we we will talk more about Bordeaux. Also, I'd just like to warn our listener that we will be having another one of these specials soon where we will be discussing the state of the US wine market with our US editor Blake Gray. So um keep an ear out for that one and keep an eye out on wherever you get your podcasts from. We'll let you know when it comes out. All right. Well, thank you very much, gentlemen. Next on. And um, let's let's go and have a break.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Thank you for listening to the Week in Wine News podcast. For more than all that we discuss, and for price of retail information on all the wines near you, including comprehensive coverage from our pro membership option, go to winehealth researcher.com.