Growing Second Chances: Jeff Middleton on Recovery, Resilience, and Farming for the Future

This week on Nobody Knowz, we sit down with Jeff Middleton, Co-Founder of Boise Vertical Farm. From recovery to resilience, Jeff’s story is about how one farm is planting hope — and feeding the Treasure Valley in more ways than one.

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Welcome to the Nobody Knowz podcast with Callie Zamzow. Join us for conversations with local change makers and hear the stories that don't always get told. It'll be honest, messy and beautiful. Touching and humorous. Slow down for a glass and pull up a chair. This is the Nobody Knows podcast. Welcome to Nobody Knows I'm your host, Callie Zamzow. I hope that this day finds you well and that something great is happening in your life today. I am going to start the podcast off with our tip of the week, which is actually not a tip so much as, a notification that we are having a wonderful, fun Christmas event. We're calling Countdown to Christmas. That is going to happen on Saturday, November 29th from 12 p.m. to 6 p.m. at our Chinden location. And if you're listening to this in the future, this is 2025. So I just want to make sure that you know that it's happening in 2025. And, some of the things that you can expect for this particular event is that we're going to have some hot cocoa and a bonfire, and there'll be photos with Santa and Mrs. Claus. They've come down to do a favor for my dad, because my dad did a long call for them. So they're going to be, coming down and, greeting people that day. We're going to have real live reindeer that they're bringing with them. There's going to be a, barrel train ride for kids, which will be super fun. And of course, families will be able to pick out their Christmas tree, fresh cut Christmas trees. And it's just going to be a fun kind of kickoff to Christmas. So we're hoping that you will join us again that Saturday, November 29th from 12 p.m. to 6 p.m. at the Chinden Zamzows location. So hopefully you will, choose to attend that because I think it will be a delightful experience and I will be there. So come on over and say hi. So today we get to have a wonderful conversation. I'm looking very forward to because, because we're going to be talking gardening. And of course, I come from a gardening family and, you know, over the years, decades, we have almost a century where our family has seen a lot of different gardening styles and techniques and a lot of people. I think the beautiful thing about gardening is that you can experiment with it and you can. There are lots of different ways to grow food. And, we learn from each other every time that somebody, you know, presents a way that they, they grow food. And that's what we're going to do today, it's going to be very interesting to learn about this. So our guest today is Jeff Middleton. He's the co-founder of Boise Vertical Farm. And he's a pharmacist turned entrepreneur, which in itself is an interesting story I'd like to know about. And he's the co-founder of Boise Vertical Farm. So welcome to the studio. Glad to have you here today. Thank you. Glad to be here. So, you know, for listeners who may not know what exactly is vertical farming, vertical farming, when we first started, we were going to be all vertical farming, hydroponics and aquaponics. Hydroponics is usually done in towers with no dirt. So you you make the solutions that feed the plants and it's all dissolved in water. So it the water recirculate and you recharge the nutrients as the plants consume them. Advantages. We use hydroponics. Uses 5 to 10% of the water that, surface farming uses. In other words, because you're recycling water, you don't keep turning on the faucet and you don't send it down the stream. It stays with you and tells it's expired and I've never seen a water system expire, ever. It'll go years and years before you have to redo the whole water. Aquaponics is with fish. We had an operation south of town that, had, used, goldfish, that big tank goldfish, and used, the. You know what? What the fish leave behind to fertilize the plants. Growing mostly greens, lettuce and the like. The advantage is the footprints, much smaller. You can grow plants closer together so you can, harvest, faster. Crops come through faster. You know where it takes all season. On the surface, you know, for growing, say, lettuce or whatever, you can, get in two crops in a season, and our greenhouses are heated, so they go year round so we can grow 365 days a year. We found, however, that that the people that we were receiving from the court systems, from the from lawyers, from Department of Corrections, we had to train and hydroponics and aquaponics takes a lot of training. I mean, you have to, if you're starting to teach people what par is from the start, you're using up all your time that you have with them to teach. And by the time they're ready to go and and and put and give something back, they're done, their hours are finished and they're gone. So we had to make a decision to either recovery or vertical hydroponic farming, the deep dive into all the puts and takes and. Yes. Yes exactly. So this is interesting I, you know, there's a whole bunch of, places that I want to go with these questions, but I guess before we do that, will you just give us a little bit of history, about you and kind of what led you to where you are now? Well, it started, I was born with addiction. I believe addiction is a disease. I became involved with opiates and, finally got caught as a pharmacist. Lost my license, and I was looking for a job. Of course, nobody would hire me with a, no license and being, having an arrest record. So I, was looking for something to do, something that I could pay back some way. I could pay amends for all the things I've done. Stealing, taking drugs, all the bad side of, addiction. So I, came across the idea of, combining recovery with, growing, with gardening. My family, both sides were all farmers. I worked like hell to to not become a farmer is too much work. And they didn't get to watch cartoons on Saturday morning, which was I just unbelievable to me. So I, I, found anything I could that wasn't farming. And then, came back to it in, my later years because it goes extremely well with recovery. People learn to take care of things. People learn responsibility. They must take care of the land. They must take care of the soil. So it seems to be a really good match. So that's how we ended up with, gardening and farming and, recovery. You're incredibly forthcoming. I mean, you just came out, right? Boom. Out the gates and and very, And you're just like, there's nothing hidden there. Can you can you speak to that? Like, what is that? Have you always been that way where you just are very open about who you are and your experiences? Or did you come to that? Well, I'm, I'm very open and but I came to that as well because we have the stigma of being an addict in society. In our society, is still very prevalent. It's considered by many people as a moral issue, and it is not a moral issue. There's a moral component to it. I knew that when I was stealing drugs and taking drugs and doing all these horrible things, that I knew what I was doing was wrong. I was raised to know the difference between right and wrong, but, in our society, it's still looked on as a moral issue. We hear quite frequently statements by people when we're out collecting donations and and the like for our operation. We will have people still say things like, I am, I'm not going to donate to people who have made bad choices. I'm not going to to give to people who are playing, with drugs. These people are, you know, these people are sucking from the society and are, not, not worth, worth dealing with. But I have found exactly the opposite. I'm very open because I like the idea of bringing it out. If we talk about it, then people will realize that it doesn't matter who you are. It it happens to everybody in our in our program. At Boise Vertical Farm, we have had physicians, pharmacists, lawyers, a lot of real estate people. Computer people and the like. And the thing that unites them all that the common trait of all of them is they have the addiction. I call it Gene, but it's there's that's a that's a loose statement. They they have the disease and it is considered a disease has been single since the late 50s by the AMA. So that's how I come to try to to speak about it and talk about it and bring it out into the open, because it can happen to anybody. How would you. I'm not, if you don't mind me asking about your personal journey with that. What, what was the, what was the thing that helped you turn the page. And like obviously it being a disease it's not gone. But what helped you turn that page on the side you were going to live differently or you know, how what was that like? What was the turning point? Well, it was actually relief. I was happy that I got busted, that I got arrested, that I, that I was, put in jail, because I could get off the merry go round. The merry go round is the cycle of, addiction, relapse, addiction relapse over and over again. I've heard it said, that that the disease of addiction is also the disease of relapse. Relapse rate in the United States is 84%. Oh, my gosh, we don't, addicts don't get it the first time. They don't get it the second time. And then about the third to fifth time, they start getting the, the word. But we the, the idea is to give people room, give them space to, not relapse and learn the keys to keeping from relapse. It's intense what you do. And it is somewhat. These are very nice people. I mean, the people that we get are 20 something, 30 something. They're actually very nice people. They're not. They're not criminals. We very seldom get true criminals. The people we get, they will become criminals if they keep going on their path. Because you've got to do something to support your habit. Well, you're searching for your next fix or your next toke or your next whatever. You don't have time to work. Yeah. There just is no time in the day. You're you're searching for that, that next hit. And, so they become criminals. A lot of it starts with petty theft, burglary, selling drugs. A lot of it is, possession and sales. So. Yeah, but the people we get 20 something, 30 something very bright, very intelligent. Most of them are very polite. I just amazes me. Very polite. They refer to me as Sir and Mr.. Which makes me feel really old, but it actually is a nice sign because they know they know how to be decent people. And that's what we're trying to do, is get people turned the right direction from heading down the the path in the wrong direction. This is everything that you've led here with. It's very humanizing to people who I think it's easy enough for an average person to dehumanize and to otherwise, because it's easier to to not to think about things that people might be suffering in that way. Yeah. That's I that's really lovely. I bet that's there's that part of, of this process with working with other people is just helping them see that they are not otherwise. And shining a light like Brené Brown talks about the fact that if you shine a light on shame, it can't exist. Yes, exactly. And our system for recovery is all about punishment, where we punish people 80 to 90% of the prison population started with alcohol and drug problems. So what do we do? We ship them out to the desert so they're out of mind. You know, out of sight, out of mind. And, putting a person in an isolation situation or putting them away from society is the worst way you can help people recovery, recover. Recovery. I mean, addiction is a very lonely, solitary, disease. Most people who are addicted at some point are locked in their garage or house, curtains drawn. They don't see anybody. They don't go anywhere. And they're, they're in this situation using drinking. I mean, it's just amazing to me the amount of people that, And I did it myself, I went to work and came home and drank until the next time to go to work. You know, or or smoke or pills or whatever, you know, and, and your whole life is wrapped around that way of living. The countries that are extremely good at recovery and keep getting people back on track. They force people to socialize. They don't put them in jail. They they put them in, community where they can get their feet back under them and they can go to, activities, clean activities. And, and then they put them back out in society as soon as they can and, make them interact. Socialization is big on recovery. It helps. It really helps keep people from relapsing. Well, that is a beautiful transition to my next question. So in 2019, you and Crystal Spencer did co-founded Boise Vertical Farm. So how did the two of you come together and form this idea and and start this this thing? Well, I, I worked for Crystal. Crystal was at Saint Luke's in research. And, she came after me when she heard that. That I needed a place to light, to be on her, institutional review board for research at Saint Luke's. She ran research there for for several years. But we we started talking and her, she had an older brother, that, drank himself to death. And that's how we got talking about the acts of addiction, addiction and, the effects of a long term alcohol use. I mean, it's just it's just sickening to sit and watch a loved one. Commit slowly. Commit suicide. It affects every, like, every area of of life. Watching them, their health slowly fall away. And then, I mean, for a person who's not an addict, they will often say, why don't you just quit? Well, we we know that that's a decent answer. That that could be the answer to not using anymore. But you can't. You can't just quit. You need help. You need a way to get off drugs and alcohol. And, oh, since we started this up and doing our, in our, research and talking to people, we very seldom ran into a family who had not been affected, adversely affected by drugs and alcohol. So did you have an moment, the two of you, where you said we're going to create this? And the vision he started began to put together the vision of what you were going to do, or did you have kind of a moment where was several moments? This has been absolutely amazing. I've I've been in I've been in business for 50 some odd years, and I have never seen a situation where things just fall into place. We're looking for a green house. Boom. We found a guy with an empty 1200 square foot green house. So we have a greenhouse. Then we run into two people who have land in, in town. They have greenhouses. So now we have three farms. We formed a partnership. I mean, we are for the things we need. We have been extremely lucky to just trip and fall into these things. And it just it says right time, right place, right idea. Absolutely. It does. Do you believe in God? No, I'm actually Buddhist. Interesting. Yes. Okay. So you're spiritual. Spiritual, but I am not. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Boy, that could could be its own podcast, I suspect. Well, yes. Actually, Buddhism is, and there's, there's a recovery, a Buddhist recovery here that is extremely good. It's like the 12 step program, but then it's not like the 12 step program, but Buddhism is very, very, tune. It fits with recovery very well. So can you walk us through a typical day as far as it's at at that BDF. Yes. Yeah. You know, we don't start at normal, farming hours. Like I don't get up with the sun. That's probably good. No, thanks. I yeah, well, you have to watch your Saturday morning cartoons. We know that. Exactly. Yeah. And the good ones aren't until, like, 9:00. So, yeah, I, we start usually 9 or 10:00 in the morning, and we're on, piece of property on, Castle Drive, which is, between, Pierce Park, road and Hill Road and that we, we lease this space. We have, you know, I mean, it's a gentleman's farm. It is on five acres. We have llamas, we've got all kinds of dogs, we got ducks we've got all around us. So it's a really nice environment. But the first thing I do in the morning when I come in is I feed Zamzow’s dog treats to the, dogs. We did not pay him to say that. Yes, exactly. That was a freebie. And then I, then I pays then I give, Sam's all dog treats to the llama and to the alpaca. They love they love treats. So, yeah, they're ready. So everybody's all ready. And then when they're all taken care of, I can go to work. But typically, you know, it has to do with going around, checking to see water levels and, what needs to be, you know, if we're running dry or we're running wet. A lot of it has to do with adjusting patches and the like. So there's quite a bit of chemistry involved, which, you know, I, I love chemistry. That's why I started doing what I started to do and, Yeah. So then, meetings in the afternoon, try to do some marketing in, in the, in the middle of everything. And, I mean, it's a business, so it's, it's, it's exactly doing paying bills, trying to find money, etcetera, etcetera. How. Yeah I, I feel. Yeah. There. Yeah. We do still do some vertical farming. We have strawberries in towers. The towers are dirt, dirt towers. And we found a really nice, made one, tower that, that's, that's made that we can, purchase without having to build it. So our, our one of our greenhouses, it will be full of strawberries. So we'll have strawberries in the winter. For the chefs, for which that's, that's a complaint that I've always heard from them is they just they can't get good product in the middle of the winter. So. Yeah. So great. I, you know, I know a couple of hydroponic people. In fact, I just visited my friend Sean Miller. Shout out to him. He's in Portland, has been doing hydroponics for a long time. It seems to me that it's a tinkering. Yeah, there's a lot of tinkering, and there's a little less. You tweak this a little and you're like, oh, nope, that was a pro where you do this. You didn't. But yes. And I think the joy for Sean is the tinkering. Yes. I mean, he's I mean he grows amazing stuff and his salsas better than any I've tasted anywhere. And I'm a I am so but, at the tinkering, it's fun to listen to him talk about the things that he's messing with. And I can't quite figure out this. And this is new this year I've never had before. So I'm trying this and it's it's kind of fun. Yes. It takes a lot. That was that was the other part of it because my partners that had the aquaponics farm, they have little kids and he works full time. She works pretty much full time. They, they just I mean, you've got to have somebody working there constantly. Pumps go out, you have leaks, you have the, you know, fish get sick. And it's even worse with aquaponics because you're tinkering between two systems. You make you make a change in the, plants in the greens. How's it going to affect the fish and vice versa. You have to be very careful to keep it even keeled so you don't harm things on the other end. Yeah, there's two living. There's two living things that you're working. Right. Yeah. And they're totally different. Yeah. They're fish and and plants. Yeah. That's fascinating. I've never actually done it, but I am. I'm very curious about it. How do you decide what you're going to grow? Well when we first started we grew everything we, we we were trying to lead the grow in other words, we were going to grow a little bit of everything and then go out and see how many people stood up and took notice. Well, it didn't work because you've got to to meet the customer where the customer is at, not where you want to be. And I knew that, but I made the mistake of figuring everybody would be interested in in what we were doing. Well, you know, we found out the need in in Boise has a lot to do with growing locally. That that is that's the key to getting in with restaurants. And, for instance, co-op, you have to, you have to provide what their, their consumers want. So we started doing mostly, lettuce. We have one farm that does all lettuce and a few tomatoes. The farm I'm at, on Castle Drive. We do tomatoes and strawberries. And then the third farm, grows all the garden goods. Carrots, squash. All this your standard gardening sort of things, but it all has to do with what? What we can do for the restaurants. We custom grow for people. We have several beds that we we grow things that they can't get any place else or they can't get locally. We'll we'll step in, and if we can grow it, we'll do it. But that's how we have attracted quite a few people, is buying by being available to customize what they want and what they need. Yeah, I, I came in with, sorrel. Sorrel is a green from the southeast and, United States, and it's local to southeast cuisine, but couldn't give it away. Just didn't fit with the cuisine here, you know? So that's interesting. You know, how do you balance the farm operations with the support of your mission? We're having the addicts and, people recovering from alcohol doing it. You know, I, I know since we went back to growing on dirt, I find that most people have had some experience with weeding, you know, so most people have had experience with the basic things that we need done. I teach our we all teach, and then, pretty much can turn the people loose. We try to integrate the people in we it's their make it their operation make it their. The success of what Boise Vertical Farm does is dependent on the help we get. And and we get some phenomenal help. We get some great people that, you know, they're just in tune. They come up with fantastic ideas. I'll focus on the business part of our operation, and then I turn over the actual growing to, supervisory people who will, you know, just make sure things are still are going the direction they should be going. And keep people busy. We always try to keep people busy because for for an addict, extra time is a killer. They start thinking of things that are going to, you know, thinking of ways to mess up. When I came through my three choices for my, community service time, which your community service time is usually given by the court system. I could sort used clothes. I could, pick up trash on the side of the road, or I could sit in jail. And for people that are bright, that's. That's a waste. Yeah, that's a waste. We can turn these people. They bring skills from other areas, from other places that they've worked. A lot of gardeners, a lot of landscapers. So, yeah, we we want them to be responsible for the success of Boise Vertical Farm. So BVS is not the only thing that you have that you have founded. You also, you helped found mended hearts and mended little hearts. Yes. Tell us a little bit about that. Those mended hearts and mended little hearts are support programs for people with, heart disease. And. Oh, I had a heart attack in my 50s, so I was pretty young when I had. So I've had a couple heart attacks, and it's it's a support group for people when when you have heart disease, you pretty much have to change everything because it's wrapped around everything. It's what you eat. It's what you do with your body, with, you know, the damages you've caused by past, alcohol and drugs, poor diet, all that. So we support people with that. So we go into hospitals and talk to people. Just talk to people. And so it's it's a visit sort of program, mended little hearts as support for kids who are born with heart defects. So, you know, they, they, they are unlike other little kids in that they spend an awful lot of time in the hospital. So, and, and they, they, they have the energy, but they don't have the ability. I mean, they're sick. They're very sick. So. But that that's what mended hearts and mended little hearts to hear. You're an interesting and extraordinary citizen of this, of this area and the things that you're that you're providing. You have this interesting history that led you here. And yet lots of people have a history that is like that, that have not decided to do the things you have done. What what do you think? What what do you think? The difference. Why is it that that is that you have have been able to take this particular route and, and come up with ways to reach out and help more people? What do you think? Can you think you can put your finger on that? Who got me down the road? Yeah, that thank you for that was a much quicker way of saying that question. I would say so. Family, I grew up in Idaho Falls. My, my grandmother, my father's mother was one of the first midwives in Rexburg. She ran a birthing center there out of her house. I would say it's just having experience with looking how we. In order to run a community, you gotta have people that'll stand up and do things and I. And not necessarily do things with the idea of being paid for it. Right. You've got to have volunteers who do it out of their heart and and not out of their pocketbook. And that's my whole my whole family has always been, don't any time donating funds, donating goods to, you know, to help people, yeah. My my father was a pharmacist. He he was a community pharmacist in that he ran the little drugstore on the corner. If somebody needed him, he was there, you know, middle of middle of Christmas Eve. He was helping out with the sick little kid, you know, or something like that. He always did that. So that's where it came from. Wow. What do you wish people understood about recovery? And, and maybe some of the barriers that people have to, to, to getting treatment. Oh, well, yeah, a lot of the barriers to getting treatment have to do with the addiction itself has to do with the fact that when you're an addict, you have a driving force behind you. It's like having a, hand up your back that keeps pushing you into continuing use. People will say, oh, I can, okay, so I'm just drinking one beer. I'm just having one beer tonight. Well, a six pack later, they're still going strong. The other thing is that typically an addict has no stop. You know, I never knew when when to stop. I, you know, I kept going till and ended up in handcuffs. And most people like me are like that. The, what I would like people to know in particular, particularly about addiction, is, as I've mentioned before, it can happen to anybody. You know, we we've had we had one, emergency room physician come through. You know, the guy's absolutely brilliant, but he fell into being an addict. You know, he had the disease, can happen to anybody, any walk of life. The people that you see on the street usually have, addiction issues. You know, typically, I mean, it's better than better than, 90% chance that the people you see have addiction issues along with mental health. And they've gotten that way through the continued use. It's a downward spiral. You cannot it's very hard to pull yourself up and out of it. I do find that society is very good at other rising. I think we I think we can live our lives and otherwise things we compartmentalize and sometimes we just like, I just can't deal with that. I what I have heard throughout this podcast is it's very much so a personalizing of that and it's it's the opposite of all rising. It's to me, it's the recognizing that literally there before the grace of God go I kind of thing. That's exactly. And that's a common statement in, in the recovery meetings. You know, there, there go I yeah. Because, I mean, it could be anybody, you know, I mean, you read and hear all the time about people who have, back injury and they start on opiates and pretty soon downward spiral from. Yeah. And pretty soon they're out on the street. Yeah. You know, they're there. Yeah. So it can happen to anybody, anywhere, anytime. And the people, the people that we deal with and including myself, I didn't want anybody to give me a handout. I wasn't interested in a handout. I can feed myself. I just need a chance to get there. So that's what we do with Boise Vertical Farm is we make contacts with people that will hire people with a drug record. Once you have that drug record from an arrest, it follows you everywhere. Which leads to a huge problem in employment, particularly in, you know, in the age group, we work with 20 or 30 somethings. It usually happens more with women than with men. A 28, 20 something guy can go out and get, you know, a physical job and make really good money. But a woman ends up working fast food bar, serving in an environment that leads to relapse in, in, in, you know, where where they're not making much money and they bounce around a fast food place, fast food place. We want to be the one that can get in the middle and have our connection of of employers and call them and say, I've got a person that you to look at. You know that you decide if you want to hire this person. But I can tell you personally, this is one of our better people. They've done well. They're clean, as far as I know. And and they are very capable. So that's an incredible perspective that you've painted for our listeners and for me. And I appreciate that. I mean, it quickly, take a break to thank our sponsors. This episode of Nobody Knows is brought to you by Zamzows, your local source for garden, pet and planet friendly products. Because when a community is supported, growth and second chances follow. Visit Zamzows.com or stop by one of our 12 local locations. Nobody knows like Zamzows. Okay, we're going to shift gears here. This is now the section that I call sharing is Caring. So it's really kind of rapid fire questions. You can answer them however you like and it doesn't even have to be rapid fire. Okay. So are you ready? Yeah. Okay. First question. What is a sustainable practice or innovation that excites you? I'm about water. I'm about water because water is going to become a very key to to our long term survival as humans on this planet. We see it in Boise. We're going, you know, I mean, we're going through a lot of water in with with growth and the number of people we have moving in. So I'm into the sustainable sort of things like, hydroponic growing and the like, where we use much less water, where we can clean water in such a way that it can go back and, be drinkable, be usable. Yeah. That, I would say probably water is a great answer for a great answer, as it as it's the reason we're all alive. Exactly. Yes. Okay. How about a favorite local partner or a farmer that you'd like to highlight? Well, yes. I was waiting for this question. I was able to go out to Green Scale this week, and they had an open house. Green scale is a new hydroponic aquaponic farm. Large scale. That's north. No, it's west of micron. Same side of the road right by, Federal Way and, highway 22. Okay. And they had an open house. They are going to grow tilapia. So they have big tanks that they'll have the tilapia in, they're going to grow greens. And they also are going to be one of our partners in that they will take our people that we vet so our people can go out and work for them. They will give our people, a bit of a little nudge, to the front of the line because we have because they know who we're sending them, they will know the person. They will they will have the ability to even come and watch them work if they would like to. This this to me, is something that I mean, when you hire somebody off the street, you don't know a thing about them, right? They could work out. They could not work out. They could be BSing you up one side and down the other. But if I have them using a shovel and digging in the dirt, I mean, that's pretty real. So I can actually say, I think this one's going to I think this is a grower, I think this is a good person. And we are able to form a partnership, sign a contract that we can send people out to them. And, yeah. So look for this, this is going to be a good operation. They're going to do really well. It's quite large. Awesome. That's cool. Fun to know the inside track on that. How about something, outside of work that brings you peace or joy? I would say my daughter, my daughter, she is 39 this year. She's a marine biologist in, Seattle. She works for the government. She works on the project for Lonesome Larry, for sockeye salmon. So she comes to us to Stanley on occasion, and works with, fish. She's a desktop researcher, so she's a lab nerd. She she got all of it from her mother, and, Yeah. So, yeah, she's. I raised her, I raised her from when she was three years old, and she actually turned out pretty darn good, which is, you know, what else can you do? There wasn't anything better, right? When we see our kids thriving. All right, I guess. I guess I did something, all right. Yeah, yeah. That's a great answer. Okay, last question. How about a book, a practice or a quote that has shaped your recovery or just your leadership? Probably that I'm not mentioned. It earlier, that addiction is a disease of recovery. Being an addict is a lifetime thing. I'm not off the hook yet, and I never will be. I'll die of from the, you know, secondary to the disease at some point, even when I'm clean because I messed up my health. It's something you have to constantly guard, against falling into it. As I alluded to, you know, I don't mind going watching a football game and drinking a beer, but if I go to watch a football game and drink a beer, it's 12. You know, it's it's as many as I can get down before the cops come. Right. So it's. You have to constantly have a vigil against, getting falling back into the same old ways. The vertical farm that keeps me clean. I'm working with people. The the way to keep people from relapsing is teach them how to give of themselves. Teach them how to help others, teach them how to do something for others, such as grow food. You know, if you have people come in and, finally learn where their food comes from, because we have people come in and we say, well, where does our food come from? And they say, I'll 23 next to the Starbucks. That's not you know, that's not what it's about. We do on occasion have people who have never watered anything, never planted anything. But then they come back for their next shift a couple days later and it's, how are my plants doing? How are my vegetables growing? How are, you know, yeah, how did we do? But, you know, we try to keep enough things going to keep as many people interested as we can to give them something else to think about. We grow mushrooms. We have a wood shop where you can send people to build, we build little, planters, small planters that we would love to sell at Sam's house. All right, well, you know, guys, I've talked to your brother about it and your dad, actually. And, Well, you haven't talked to me yet. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Here's a sale. We do a lot of different things. Trying to keep people interested. And moving forward, I think it's interesting that you say that the key to, in the city, you're applying it to addiction as far as helping other people. And isn't that the key to life in general? I mean, this is. Well, yeah, that it's what it's all about. I mean, we we aren't living lives for ourselves, right? That's not how life works. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm very fortunate that I'm at this point in my life that I have the time to do this sort of thing. When you got when you have kids and, you know, full time job career, you don't always have the time to do those sort of things. But I mean, for us, if we have somebody come and help us for two hours a week, bonus. You know, if we have, I, I find that I can maybe I don't have to watch another football game. I could, I could take a couple hours and go do something that's noticeable, you know, and that that's what makes a good community. Yeah. These people that will help out without being asked, without being paid. Yeah. It's it's great. I love that love that answer. Okay. We've got one last question. It's the question that we asked everybody at the end of the podcast. And there are no rules. So answer however you like. The question is, what is something that nobody knows? Geez, I think I laid it all out there. Well, sure. I grew up, told you about my family, told you about my problems. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's actually been. Yeah, it's kind of like being on the couch. You know, I don't have an answer for that. I've told you everything. Well, you've had an extraordinary life, and you're continuing to have an extraordinary life. And I for me, I didn't know before this that somebody could be so open and forthcoming about something that so many people keep in the dark. And I, you have shared with me a way of taking on maybe some things that that I am ashamed of myself, that maybe I don't need to be. If you're willing to stand up and talk about the things that are going on in your life, then I can probably do the same with what's going on in mine. So I, I appreciate you as a human being and I, I really have enjoyed this conversation a lot. Thank you. Thank you. Great. Yeah. Thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you for sharing the time. I always like the time to to if anybody if you want to listen to me, I'll talk. Well that makes for a very good podcast guest. So yeah. All right. Well thank you. Thank you again. And if you've enjoyed today's episode, please follow the podcast and leave a review. And if you want to learn more about Boise Vertical Farm, you can check them out at Boise Vertical farm.com. Next week we're going to hear from another incredible voice shaping Treasure Valley. And until then, thanks for listening.