Behind the Pulpit: What Pastors Wish You Knew

Have you ever wondered what pastors really think when the mic is off and the church lights are dimmed? In this episode, Jason and Nicole open up about the joys, heartbreaks, and surprises of ministry life—especially in small-town Appalachia. From counseling at midnight to preaching with a broken heart, they peel back the curtain on what it’s like to live as both shepherds and humans.

This is an honest, grace-filled conversation for:
 🧑‍🤝‍🧑 Church members who want to love their pastors better
 🙏 Pastors who feel unseen and stretched thin
 🌱 People curious about the faith without the performance

Whether you're in the pew or the pulpit, this episode offers encouragement, a few laughs, and a deeper look into the lives of those called to lead.

Thanks for pulling up a chair at Table for Two. If you enjoyed today's conversation, we'd love for you to join us on Facebook! It is where we share behind-the-scenes updates, chat with listeners, and keep the conversation going throughout the week. We'd love to see you there.

Transcript

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Welcome back to Table for Two where ministry meets marriage and real life meets grace. I'm Jason.

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And I'm Nicole. We are a real life pastoral couple trying to navigate family, faith, and funny internet drama without losing our minds or our calling. 

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Or credentials. And today's episode kicks off a brand new kind of conversation. It's called Red Flags and Revival and we're taking a story straight from Reddit and walking through it together with fresh eyes, honest hearts, and hopefully a little wisdom. 

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So we're bringing a story to the table and we actually have three to choose from. One's about marriage, one's about church hurt, and one's about parenting. But we're only going to do one today. One of us is going to choose it live and we'll go from there. 

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No prep no scripts because that's how it happens in real life. Mm -hmm It's just gonna be our honest reactions in the same past our heart we bring to the folks in our pews or our kitchen table Yeah, and let's be honest neither one of us have read any of these stories This is table for two storms and swallowed on noise church cheese and hand copy and mugs our lights held together by grace and a few hugs they said She submits we said we both do it's not about ladders It's me and you serving the kingdom and eight runs and jeans lot of lines and callous hands and holy routines At this table for two there's room for you Pull up a chair will tell the truth of love and faith before we get into anything else Let's start with a lighter note 

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So here's today's question Alright, what's the most unexpected gift you've ever received and how did you really feel about it? 

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I Really don't know Why don't you go first on this one and I'll Think as you're sharing. 

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Oh Well growing up at Martinsville First Church. We had a wonderful pastor from most of my childhood named James Walker Wonderful, man. I actually answered the call while he was pastoring there But when he Took another assignment and was time for him to go He was cleaning out his bookshelf as most pastors do most pastors have an obscenely large book collection We're working on it and we've actually gained some from other pastors along the way that as they were retiring and things But pastor Walker he was he was he knew like me and my brother both were going into ministry at that point So he gave us a box of books 

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And there were several that were really interesting, like one was like, you can expect a communist to be a communist, and then the other one, which was, this is one that had us rolling on the floor. Like, again, you're looking for these deep theological books that you think are going to change everything. But one of the books was literally titled, My Hands, the Natural Lethal Weapon. But it was autographed by the author, so I'm assuming he knew him, but yeah, That was really kind of one of those weird gifts, but another one that I really do cherish, and I do appreciate Brother Walker thinking of us as he was going out there, but another one was when you and I were in Monongahela. Oh, yeah. And there's a lady by the name of Carolyn Myatt, long -time missionary in the Church of the Nazarene, helped establish the Nazarene Hospital there in Papua New Guinea. 

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and I had mentioned during a sermon while she was there that I was reading a book by Ralph Earl, one of the Nazarene General Superintendents. 

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Long time ago, Nazarene General Superintendents. 

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And I was really enthralled by the book I was reading by him, and so fast forward a little bit, and she asked Nicole and I to help her move, and she was downsizing from her house to a smaller apartment. She was getting up there in age, and so we went to help. And again, she was trying to downsize and get rid of some things, but she gave me this, it's this ugly little doll, and it's in a prominent place in my office right now. 

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The doll is creepy looking. 

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Creepy looking, it's really ugly. 

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But why it's significant is that was a gift to Carolyn from Dr. Ralph Earl and she passed it on to me and that just meant so much to me. 

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Yeah, I had to know that Carolyn was paying attention only this room, but also knew how much I would appreciate even an ugly little doll So yeah, that's those are my two unexpected gifts, I guess Um, I think my most unexpected now that I think about it was when I was five I remember walking out the door and I saw this like moving truck out in front of our house and keep in mind I'm living with my birth mom at the time and we don't have a lot. This is coming up on Christmas. We're kind of 

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we had been warned by our mom that there probably wasn't going to be a large visit from Santa that year and all of a sudden there's this moving truck out in front of our house and These this church had heard about us and decided to spoil us rotten that year and They filled our house using that moving truck they filled our house with groceries and Toys and bikes and different things for my family and I think that was like one of the first times that just it showed me who Jesus was Like that was it wasn't my first Experience with Christian with a Christian, but it was very 

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It was my first experience with the actual act, the actions associated with somebody who's following Christ, and it definitely made an impact. There have been a lot of other blessings along the way. There was one time when we were in Monongahela as well where we'd be running low on something and there'd be this lady that would just randomly show up and load our porch with goods and things. 

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Like, it was crazy how the timing worked out with that. But again, that was another example of when I got to see somebody exercising their faith. 

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By extending a hand. 

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Yeah It's incredible. Yeah Well, those are our answers, but what we would love we would love to hear what your answers are to the question for this week And so what you need to do is head over to the table for to Facebook page Let me sure to like it and follow it and then drop your story in the comments You can post it in response to this this episode post or you can do so What we usually do a post where it's just the question itself You can do that in response to that, but we'd love to hear your stories as well But now speaking of stories, it's we're here to the point where we're gonna choose our reddit story And Nicole's gonna choose our reddit story for for this time. So are you ready to hear the options? Mm -hmm. All right. So here are our options. 

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So the first story is Which is the first off read the just read the title. We won't get into the 

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today. 

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Okay, so first one is a marriage story and it says wife discovers husband gave chocolates and cookies to another married mom at son's school. Story number two is a church hurt story and I'm sure there are thousands of these and we'd love to go through a bunch of those and just love on the people that have been involved. 

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Validate them, let them know that hey their stories are their stories are valid their feelings are valid. 

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Yeah, so that's two so marriage story church hurt story and the last one's a parenting story about a teenage girl who mom wants her to pay a hefty towing bill because she parked illegally but dad disagrees. 

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So you got mom and dad and separate camps on so that's kind of marriage navigation too if they're still married that is 

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All three of those are pretty intriguing and I know which one I was leaning toward before this started, but I think I've changed my mind. I was leaning toward the marriage story, but I think we're going to dig into Church Hurt today. 

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We're going to do the Church Hurt story today. 

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All right. 

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Now before we get started, I do want to make a disclaimer. We've got our story picked and we're going to dive into it, but I want you to know we're not here to roast anybody. 

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No. 

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And to make anybody feel bad, and that includes whoever the participants are in causing the hurt in this Church Hurt, and we're not here to pretend we have all the answers, but we're here to reflect with compassion, honesty, and hopefully a little humor, too. 

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Yeah. So whether you're a pastor, a parent, or just someone who's been in a messy situation, we hope that these conversations make you feel seen and not judged. 

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Alright, this story comes to us from a techie 777. Okay, and it says for for context I grew up church hopping and homeschooled I didn't really have much of a social life outside of those one boys ministry Royal Rangers. I grew up going to When I was 13, I almost lost my mom in a car accident. I left her with a mild TBI She resumed homeschooling me after she came back home in order to return to the status quo, but it was a big struggle I was pretty much left alone the house for most of the day expected to balance both being a student and a mini caretaker for My mom and it was bad. I Hated seeing her almost bedridden most of the time and I felt trapped I tried to get involved in anything just to get out of the house including camping worship ministry at my brother's church and youth group Either social anxiety made it unbearable for me or something would happen to cause my parents to take me away from the church The only ministry that I was ever consistently in was the Royal Rangers You 

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I was pretty depressed and suicidal at that time, but going to their camps really gave me an outlet to get away from things at home. I genuinely feel that God used that ministry to prevent me from committing suicide. 

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Somewhere down the line, my dad tried out a church that I passed from a Bible study that he had led, and we were introduced to this very charismatic and friendly man and his equally charismatic and even more ambitious wife, also a pastor at their church. He immediately took a liking to my parents and he quickly became family. We got very involved in the church, I made their flyers for their events and was a part of their worship team, but it was even more than that. He was the first pastor I felt that genuinely got me. He was the first pastor and the only pastor I felt comfortable talking about my love for pop culture and films with. 

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He understood most of it, but even with the parts he didn't understand, he still listened to me talk about how much I loved it. He was even there for our low moments, especially when my mom was hospitalized for her last battle of the Caesars. Again, he felt like part of our family. 

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Eventually, I barely had time to be involved with his ministry because of college and because I was becoming a leader at Rangers as a way to give back to the ministry. An issue came up because the head of the outpost was requiring me to visit the outpost church once a month out of respect for the place, and so the kids I worked with could not see me. My parents and my pastor didn't like that, but for different reasons. My parents were more concerned about the pressure this was putting on me since I would have to juggle school ministry and going to two churches at the same time. My pastor didn't like that I was being taken away from his ministry. 

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Alright, so the reason why I wanted to pause is I kind of want to ask do you see any red flags already? Well, the red flag that jumps out to me, one, I guess there's a couple, one, church hopping does hurt kids. It's like to the extent of, it's like moving around from one school district to another. You start to build family, you start to build connections, then all of a sudden you're ripped out of that environment and have to start over again. And it's hard, especially when it's people you've loved and you've trusted, to try and restart and rebuild that again and something that's our kids have experienced. The other red flag is the pastor being upset that... 

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This this young man's not there. 

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Yeah, it's kind of It kind of is reminiscent of that one conversation you had with one of the kids at kids group a few weeks ago but she was asking if If we were in competition with the churches in our area and our answers no Because we're all trying to show Jesus and that's the ultimate goal So if if somebody ends up going to the church down the street We're excited about the fact that they're going to church that they're they're plugged in and because it's not my ministry. It's God's ministry It's right. But also I I don't know. I kind of feel like There was I just feel like one of the issues that we tend to see with Environments like this is that there's a strong sense of isolation 

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Where he mentions that he was only involved in this one ministry consistently and any time that he got really plugged in anywhere else he was taken away and and that that tends to be very isolating in it and it really causes a lot of these red flags to be ignored when they do come up because you don't You haven't witnessed enough to realize that this is not right. This isn't normal, right? So, okay. 

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Let's continue on with the reading Alright, so it started bubbling up until he one time after the service. He cornered me alone in the building He's trying to gaslight me Telling me that the guys that I grew up with in Royal Rangers were just using me for my anointing and that he knows how they work 

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My dad noticed this and put a stop to it, telling him to never corner my son like that ever again. 

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Good for Dad. 

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Yes. The entire experience left me very conflicted. On one hand, I figured he was just being overprotective, but on the other hand, I was like, how dare he? I wouldn't be here without them. But I resumed my business and got busier with school and Rangers. That's when I found out about an incident with my brother's girlfriend, who was getting involved in the ministry. The pastor's wife was taking her under her wing. She, like she always did before, puffed up her and her husband and constantly talked about her ambitious ambitions with the church's growth. Mind you, at this point, it was just me, my parents, and my brother's girlfriend going to this church. She was isolating her more and more, and at one point, she asked for money from her to help her pay for the bills since she and her husband were hitting hard financial times. My brother's girlfriend agreed, but she soon learned that the pastor's wife was refusing to pay her back. Thanks for watching! 

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My brother and her confronted her which resulted in a fight, and my brother and his girlfriend came back home and I overheard her talking to my dad and I learned what happened. Everything clicked in my head. We were all used by them. I started realizing more and more that the church was gradually becoming more culty and the pastor was trying to be possessive over me while manipulating the others. Ever since then I've had massive trust issues with churches and Christian ministries outside of Rangers. I always feel like I have to look after my back after what happened to me. Because of college I barely have time for Rangers even then I don't feel comfortable with opening up about other things. The American church's response to current events only solidified my distrust in the church. I've been going to therapy for a bit since I started university to help with reconciling the past trauma with my mom and dealing with my anxiety issues. 

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It's been mostly helping, I've been dealing with it that better, but looking back on it I'm realizing that I've barely really touched on my trust issues with the church. It's been four years since it happened and I haven't found a home church since then it's been eating away at me. I can barely socialize with other Christians, I just don't feel comfortable with them most of the time. I've been thinking about going back for therapy again to finally focus on my issues with the church, but I'm really not sure. The easiest route for me to go for would be via my university, but I'm not sure if they have anyone who's a Christian and would understand the experience. 

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Plus my old therapist from this school retired so if I do go back to them, I'll need to go to a different therapist and have to tell them my whole thing, my whole long convoluted story again, I'm not sure if I want to do that. 

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To answer your question about how I overcame it. I didn't and I don't really have great words of advice to help others with the experiences I'm still not really healed from it and that's I think that last bit is important for us to understand is Not all wounds heal. 

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Yeah, sometimes you learn to live with them You learn to deal with them and I would certainly encourage this person to go to therapy Yeah, and work through this hurt because the thing is is this is trauma and and yes church Church trauma is a little different than normal like everyday family trauma I or I witnessed a car accident or was in a car accident trauma But it's still trauma and so a therapist will be able to walk you through healing And and the thing that we need to understand about healing is that that might that healing might not result in you going to church Again, you might not 

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Decide that you trust the church or want to be a part of the church again I Get it. Um, it's if you've been abused by a parent and You've cut them off because they've been abusive and they're continuously abusive and and you can't trust them You're not going to heal from that and then go and bring your kids to your child That just doesn't work like that or it shouldn't work like that because then you're exposing your children to that same abuse that you experienced And the same goes with the church Actually preached on this on Sunday where the church has a bad reputation unfortunately and 

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And as Christians who are active in the church, if you're a Christian who's active in the church, we need to be eager to understand that some people just don't trust the church, and so we need to go out of our way to be trustworthy people of Christ and be the church for them, because sometimes the organization is what ruins it all. 

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Yeah, and I know what statistics say, the one that floats around is 80 % of people don't go to church because no one's invited them, but again, 80 % of statistics are made up on the spot, so I'm pretty sure I just made that one up off the top of my head. But the point I'm going to make is this, if you're ministering to someone in that context or you have a friend that you're wanting to come to your church, but they're dealing with church hurt, 

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My advice is not to keep pressuring them and inviting them over and over again Yeah, well they've been to church before but and they've been hurt before yeah, so so one we need to be Recognized that those wounds really hurt and they're fresh and in that moment We need to be more like Job's friends in the first part of the encounter Not when they start telling him what to do and what to think But the part where they're sitting just sitting with him on the asheep. 

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Yeah And that's what I mean by invite them to your house invite them into your space or or in or invite them into a neutral space like a coffee shop or whatever and I don't mean Invite them to try to convince them to forgive everything or to to try to get them to just Brush it all aside. I mean invite them into a place where they feel safe. They feel comfortable and just 

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listen and be a person that they can trust. Yeah. 

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And then on the flip side of that, I think the question we have to ask ourselves as Christians in this scenario, are we called to invite people to our church? Are we called to be the church? 

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Yeah. 

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The church is not a place where we go. We are the church. When we become Christians, that's who we are. And so in our minds, it shouldn't matter where they attend. Where if they're struggling, they're not attending. That we, yes, we should be in fellowship with other believers, but in that moment. 

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But maybe we're the fellowship that they're supposed to be connected to. 

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Yes, and just being present and loving them the way Jesus loves them. Because again, sometimes we get so wrapped up and we gotta get, and I get it though. If you're a pastor listening to us, we're judged by the number of people in the seats. Yeah. 

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But we have to stop focusing on that metric Because that's not healthy Because when it becomes just about getting butts in the seat It stops being about the faces and the real people attached to that Yeah But if we care about growing the kingdom if our if our mission really is go make disciples well nation like Jesus commanded us Then it's not about filling a seat in our pew. It's about loving and discipling somebody It's about walking through them like this pastor started off with all the right intentions He was there when mom was going when the family's in these low points He was there from the young man raising him up and that's those are things we as a pastor should do Not just as pastors, but as Christians, those are things we should do but it should never be what am I getting from this? What am I gaining from it? Yeah 

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Because the second we cross that line it stops being ministry and it starts being using Yeah, and we're not God's never called us to use a person No, God's called us to love them and disciple them and journey with them Yeah, and I I want to give some kudos to dad in this where he his son was cornered by the pastor and Dad stepped up and was like no don't do that. He set some firm boundaries and he He stood up to Somebody who was trying to be the ultimate spiritual leader in that family's life and I'm I'm giving kudos to dad for for protecting his son because the thing is is a lot of a lot of church abuses ignored by parents because 

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They they don't want to go against their pastor and and a lot of times Unfortunately, it's it is the pastors that need to To be called out and and their kids sometimes have to be protected from the pastors It's just the reality of it and and so techie I'm just gonna say this I Don't rush your healing process, but definitely get in therapy Definitely get in therapy and just because they may not be a Christian or just just because in fact I actually highly recommend not going to a Christian therapist Or a Christian counselor. 

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Yeah, at least not just because that's what they are. 

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Yeah 

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I definitely would definitely go to a secular practice. They tend to be a lot more understanding about stuff like this Well, and even then like they're gonna be professional. 

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Yeah, their job isn't to sway you Yeah, religiously or then they're not gonna set out to change your faith What their job is it's like any doctor you go to right or a therapist your nurse and try to help you heal Yes, that is their objective. Yeah, there's I don't you know, we get so many times we get caught up Is this a Christian practice or is this a person that's a good? Just go to the doctor. Yeah, you're gonna do if you break your arm or break your toe by dropping a TV on it. 

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Yeah 

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Now, for me personally, I will recommend always going to a secular practice, but if you feel more comfortable talking to a believer in that secular practice, that definitely would work. But again, they are held to a different expectation than like a Christian counseling organization or a biblical counseling organization. And they're going to be more professional when it comes to handling situations like church hurt. 

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And then there's two other things I think we can address based on this story. The first one I want to talk about is we can never view, and I think I already touched on this a little bit, but never view somebody. 

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For how they fit to your ministry does that make sense like Okay, I Know here at our church. We could use a sound tech Oh, we can use a media technician, right? We could use a door greeters We could use more kids workers. You know, we could use all kind These all kinds of more people But when someone walks to the door for their first time or we meet somebody in the community And we're praying and asking God to lead them to him or to it Let's be honest. We all want them to come to our church But we can't be looking I'm thinking this is this is where I see them fitting in that puzzle Mm -hmm. You know, I mean because even then let's say the best case scenario happens they get saved They start coming to our church, but God's calling them to something else than you envisioned them for 

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They're trying to force them into this puzzle slot and they're not designed for that slot at all. Yeah. 

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Yeah It's like I'm thinking of that episode of the very first episode of friends, right? I remember Rachel shows up at the coffee shop and then you know Because she's running away from her wedding. If you've never watched friends, I hope I'm not ruining the plot for you But Rachel is running away from a wedding and she ends up at Monica's house at some point and she's on the phone With her dad who's paid for this very expensive New York wedding, right? 

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She but she's just Rachel's adamant I'm not gonna marry this guy and and she makes the comment of You know, everybody's been telling me your shoe your shoe your shoe and she's like, well, maybe I don't want to be a shoe Maybe I want to be a purse Or a hat. 

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It was a hat. Well, she says or purse or a hat Yeah, and then her dad responds with do you want me to buy it? we don't hear this part of this conversation, but damn makes must have makes a suggestion of 

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you want me to buy you a hat?" And she's like, No, I'm not wanting you to buy me a hat. I'm saying I am a hat. It's a metaphor, daddy. 

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Yes. And so that's my point, right? 

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I've said it a few times. 

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Yes. It's one of the shows we regularly watch through his friends. But that's my point. We can't label and pigeonhole people. Because sometimes, too, their gifting is far greater than what we can see on the surface. 

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Yeah, and let's use my story for an example. I grew up being told that I couldn't be a pastor, but I could be a pastor's wife. And so I was forced to take piano lessons. I learned to cook and clean and sew and garden and all that jazz. And by the way, if you give me a plant, it will die within the week. Because I was never really good at any of the, quote unquote, pastor's wife jobs. 

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including piano, I can't play, but because that's not what I was called to, and any time I was placed in a ministry area, that's where I flourished, that's where I thrived, but even then, because it wasn't my actual calling, there was always something else. There was something more that I felt like I needed to do, and so yes, I did well in children's ministry, I did well in youth ministry, I did well in women's ministry, but that's not where God was calling me, it was just a part of my call, and so I never felt fully fulfilled, fully, like I didn't feel right in those spots, it was still kind of forced, and now that I'm actually able to serve in the capacity that God has called me, that's where I'm actually able to flourish and grow and thrive and, you know, within the church body. 

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But when people when pastors are looking at people who are coming into the church and saying, oh they'd be perfect for this or They'd be perfect for this or whatever that no And and even then like We have had people step up or come up to us and be like, hey, I feel called into ministry and we're like Okay, where do you feel called and they're having to test out their giftings? They might be really skilled and use in the music department, but we can't just be like, okay, you're on the worship team They want they might try it out for a few weeks, but really when it comes down to it That's not their calling and they end up stepping back And and we have one young lady who's currently in our church who was like hey I feel called to ministry and she's so and she really wanted to work with the kids But now like she's realizing her call is more youth ministry related. And so we're like, okay that we're gonna usher you into that role instead because 

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She is in communication with God for her call. That's not our job to decipher, that's hers. 

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Yes, and if you're really adamant and believe that God's calling someone to something, don't voice it. And what I mean by that is, wait and trust the Holy Spirit, because if the Holy Spirit is leading you that way and it truly is the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is going to lead that person to the spot on their own in his timing and when he and they are ready. 

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Yeah, because nobody is called because you have sensed the call in their life. 

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Yeah, and that might seem contradictory to my story, right? Because remember, my youth leader asked me to preach, but that's not what happened. 

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But what happened was that they confirmed it for you. 

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Yeah, they confirmed it. 

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You were already wrestling with it. 

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Yeah, she never said, are you called to preach or are you feeling? She just offered me an opportunity to see if I was interested. 

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Now, in my case, I did have people coming up to me and asking, are you like, are you sensing a call? But it's because they could recognize. 

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That in me and so it was it was still a question. It wasn't hey, you're called to be a pastor. It was Hey, are you sensing a call? Cuz I kind of get that feeling with you and then it was like well Yeah, cuz I had just literally told Jason the night before okay. 

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Yeah, I guess I I guess I am called And then they asked me and I was like, yes, I'm called So excited so again, that's the blessing of ministering and walking with people is you get to see God take take you guys see they didn't take off in their love for God and watch the Holy Spirit Transform them from the inside out and then blossom into who God's called them to be Yeah, and it's always greater than what we envision. 

[00:31:27.200]
Yeah, and and as we've seen in this story Inflicting your vision onto somebody else 

[00:31:37.000]
That causes church hurt and will will Result in set some people leaving the church entirely Yeah, I don't necessarily want to be the cause of that for someone I know So the other thing I wanted to address about this story and again dad was awesome in the middle of this protecting Um Again, I'm not judging dad too harshly with this comment Well, and again, we don't even we don't know what their story was the church hopping is a red flag Yeah, but what church hurt were they doing? So so understand like when I say this Yeah, there's a lot of unknown in me speaking into this I don't know what's going on behind this but there is a danger in church hopping again I kind of just a little bit ago of 

[00:32:28.700]
You don't really get familiar You don't you don't learn to walk with the church through the difficult times, right? And you don't get to see you don't start to recognize red flags when they have here Yeah, but you also the other thing you miss out on is you don't get to see God bring victory out of those things And again, I'm not saying you know if there's a scenario where you know, there's Some hidden sin that's brought to the surface I'm not saying that's a good thing I'm not saying God caused that to happen That's not the case. 

[00:33:01.100]
He might have Helped it come to the surface. 

[00:33:05.000]
Yes, right. 

[00:33:06.000]
He didn't cause the actual sin to happen 

[00:33:08.700]
But what I'm meaning is God can bring beauty while we sit on the ass sheep. Yeah. He doesn't make the ass sheep beautiful, but he doesn't let the story end at the ass sheep. Yeah. He brings, he carries it on to something greater to where that, it doesn't have the final say. And so again, churches need us to stick around and that goes to lay people and pastors as both. 

[00:33:34.900]
Yeah. 

[00:33:35.300]
Stick it out. Hey, I know sometimes as pastors, some people can be very difficult, but running away from it, all you're doing is leaving that brokenness there for somebody else to deal with the next person to come in and handle. 

[00:33:53.300]
And also what you don't realize too is pastors when we leave it does cost it does cost church hurt Even if we're leaving under God's calling us elsewhere So when so when we say God's calling us elsewhere, we better be sure you better be prayed up. We better know. Yeah And but again if you're a lay person watching this They're listening. Yeah, why listening? Yeah, we if you're watching us. I'm gonna be nervous right now I wonder how you got a camera down here Your church needs you to stick around Because the things that you're hoping or you're upset about the church lacking or not doing right If you leave that only makes it harder to change those things. Yeah Chances are your pastor probably agrees with you They probably do think the music might need to be a little modernized They might think it's maybe we shouldn't be wearing suits and ties every week 

[00:34:49.000]
But you leaving Leaves them to fight that battle by themself. Yeah, and now that God can't help or God can't work through it But man, it makes a big difference as a pastor when you when you know people are behind you and they love you and they Support you. Yeah Makes it easier to fight those battles. 

[00:35:08.800]
Yeah, but if you are feeling the urge to leave Pray it up Pray it up make sure that you know that you know that you know that God is taking you out of a situation because He'll he'll be sufficient in that void without you present 

[00:35:38.200]
But don't cause somebody else's church hurt By by abandoning shit too soon. Yeah, and I think I say this You don't need to stand up And give a big thunderous speech You don't need a big long Facebook rant Just leave Now again if there's a sin that's being covered up Oh certainly find the proper again Don't go to Facebook don't go social media find the proper channels Yes to do that and and have that dealt with and don't just leave if there is Affairs or actual like abuse or or anything like that Call that out with the proper authorities and get it taken care of but if you're leaving for other reasons 

[00:36:25.700]
Like you just you're not it doesn't fit. It's not it's not the right place for you You know like the pastor you don't like the pastor's family Yeah, and again, I'm not saying you're wrong, but one prayer, but again don't make a big scene about it Because again when you do that, you're just gonna create more hurt. You're gonna hurt not only the pastor you're gonna hurt your friends that love you and Have been walking through spiritual journeys with you for a long time sometimes It does leave marks. 

[00:36:59.200]
Mm -hmm. 

[00:36:59.900]
So the way you leave is important. Yeah, just as important as if you stay Yeah, no matter which way you go. 

[00:37:07.300]
We have to have a Christ like attitude Yeah, think about it in terms of like leaving a place of employment 

[00:37:14.500]
When you leave, if you're leaving in the right way, you're not gonna try to burn the place down on the way out. Loss is a completely abusive situation, in which case then you should be calling HR, you should be calling the police, you should be calling whatever situation it is. If it's corrupt, it needs called out. But when you're just moving on to another place of employment, to another job, you submit your letter of resignation, you say goodbye to the friends that you've made there, and you move on. And you don't start ranting about your last job. 

[00:37:54.900]
Well, as we wrap up this part on church hurt, I just wanna say that, if you're someone dealing with church hurt, you're not less of a Christian. Jesus still loves you. 

[00:38:05.500]
I'm not gonna give you the cliche that not all Christians are that way because that doesn't help you because it what? 

[00:38:12.000]
What matters is one Christian was that way five Christians were that way and They're hurt still the same the hurt. 

[00:38:19.200]
We know they're the hurt still you know You don't go to somebody's been attacked by a dog and say well. It was just one dog It's still hurt. Yes, and you might be a little skittish around dogs for a while so And Here's the thing. You might not open up to dogs anymore after that and here's the thing I know your story is painful and I know a lot of times create other Christians. Don't want to hear it, but they need to Because how can how can it was it God tells us? Sin that needs to be brought into the light and I'm paraphrasing a lot of scripture verses when I say this But sin was to God wants to bring sin into light to expose it so it can be dealt with yeah 

[00:39:01.200]
But if it remains in the dark It's investors. 

[00:39:05.300]
So keep telling your stories keep sharing them and fellow Christians if you're hearing that story that is stepping on your toes because Quote -unquote not all Christians are that way and I'm feeling offended because somebody's pointing out the way that Christians have hurt others God didn't call us to get come to his defense. He called us to bear one another burden bear one another's burdens with love so bear those burdens and Deal with it. So thank you for joining us on this first reddit council counseling session 

[00:39:47.800]
on Table For Two. We hope that it made you laugh and think or at least feel like you're not the only one figuring things out as you go. 

[00:39:56.700]
And hey, we love to hear from you. We love to hear what you think about this episode format. Should we do more like this and what kind of stories should we look at next? Yeah. 

[00:40:08.600]
Yeah, so you can connect with us on our Facebook page, Table For Two podcast, and while you're there, why not answer today's lighthearted question and tell us about a gift that you've received and how you really felt about it. So, yeah. 

[00:40:23.100]
And as always, grace and peace to you in the name of Jesus. See you next time. 

[00:40:49.400]
At this table for two, there's room for you. Tell the truth, love and faith with the side of her face reel.