Liberty and Submission

Does submission in marriage mean someone has to be the boss? This week on Table for Two, Jason and Nicole tackle the infamous "umbrella theology"—you know, the one that says God is in charge, then the husband, then the wife, then the kids, then the dog (probably). But is that really what Scripture teaches?

In this playful yet honest conversation, they explore how Ephesians 5 has been misused to prop up patriarchal systems and what mutual submission actually looks like in real-life relationships. From personal stories to deep biblical insight this episode challenges traditional roles while offering a freeing, grace-filled alternative grounded in love, respect, and equality.

Whether you’ve lived under the umbrella or never heard of it before, pull up a chair. There’s room for you at the table.

Thanks for pulling up a chair at Table for Two. If you enjoyed today's conversation, we'd love for you to join us on Facebook! It is where we share behind-the-scenes updates, chat with listeners, and keep the conversation going throughout the week. We'd love to see you there.

Transcript

Ep8 Liberty and Submission

Jason: [00:00:00] Welcome back to Table for Two, the podcast where faith, family, and real life meet around the table. 

Nicole: We are Jason and Nicole Burnett, a married couple in ministry who's learning, laughing and leading together and maybe stirring the pot just a little this week. 

Jason: Yeah, today's episode's called Liberty and Submission, and we're talking about something that tends to make people squirm, authority headship, and the whole umbrella of protection metaphor.

Nicole: But don't worry, we're not here to throw stones. At least not intentionally. We're just pulling back the layers of, of theology that many of us grew up with and asking does it hold up? 

Jason: So buckle in whether you've ever heard phrases like a woman should stay in the kitchen. I. Or you just want a better picture of what mutual submission looks like in real life.

This one's for you. This is table for Two 

Theme song: for Two Storms and Swallowed on Noise. Church and hand copying mugs are life held together by grace and a few hugs They. [00:01:00] Said she submits. We said we both do. It's not about ladder since me, you serving the kingdom and locked lines and callans and holy routines at this table for two, there's room for you.

Pull up. Butcher will tell the truth, love and faith with the side. 

Nicole: Now, before we start poking the umbrella, let's lighten things up a bit. 

Jason: I figured our episode was going lighten. Lighten everything up. Well, anyway, here's today's question. What's one household chore you secretly enjoy and one you'd happily never do again?

Nicole: Well, I can think of about a billion that I'd happily never do again. Why don't you share first? 

Jason: All right. I absolutely love. Cooking and fixing dinner, fixing breakfast, lunch, not so much. Lunch is kind of an annoyance, like go make yourself a sandwich. [00:02:00] But I love, I love fixing food. I love cooking. Now, on the flip side of that, I absolutely hate doing the dishes.

I love cooking, but I hate doing the dishes, so I'm trying to teach myself to cook with as few dishes as possible. But that's not always. 

Nicole: And use as many paper plates as we can. 

Jason: Yes. Paper plates are my best friend, and if they ever make disposable pots and pans, I will hand them my money. 

Nicole: I think my favorite household chore, believe it or not, I think it's vacuuming like.

When once everything's like picked up, I just like, there's some satisfaction there. Yeah. It's like 

Jason: that, that finishing touch, you know? 

Nicole: Yeah. Um, and I also really enjoy like being handy, so like if there's anything that needs to be fixed as far as like hardware, I like that. Um, and I, I [00:03:00] also make my own laundry detergent.

That's something that's been a fairly recent development. Yeah, that sounds really good too. And that's a lot of fun. But I hate doing the laundry. I hate the laundry. 

Jason: Yes, you, you very much do. 

Nicole: I wish I could just. Uh, like, throw away all of our dirty laundry. Yeah. And just never look at it again. Again. 

Jason: Which I prefer doing, doing the laundry over here too.

Her doing it because she won't throw holy clothes away. My, my holy clothes. Well, my holy clothes. Yeah. I won't say, when I say holy clothes, I'm not saying like sacred clothes, I'm saying clothes that need to be thrown away. So I just do that for her. Yeah. 

Nicole: But that's my own trauma. Yes. I don't, I I don't hold onto ratty clothes from the kids I like with.

Jason: Right. 

Nicole: I. I hold onto my own. 

Jason: Mm-hmm. 

Nicole: But that's, yeah, it's my own trauma. Yeah. 

Jason: Well, we'd love to know what yours, yours are too. You know, what's your, what's your favorite household chore? What's your least favorite one? Uh, drop. Drop a message [00:04:00] to us in the comment. Share it with us. Other listeners, uh, wherever you're listening to this episode from, uh, go, just go to the Facebook page, the table for two podcast and, and post it.

Somewhere in the comments. And also, no, there's no judgment if you say organizing the drunk drawer, um, we won't judge you for that. So, 

yeah. 

Jason: Well now, now we're gonna kind of dive into the main topic of this and, um, you might be asking yourself, because we mentioned in the opening what is umbrella theology?

What, what is this umbrella thing that you're talking about? 

Nicole: And for those of you who don't know, umbrella theology, it's a framework where God is at the top. And then there's the husband who is like under God an authority, and then under the husband is the wife, and it's, and then under the wife is the children.

Um, it's kind of a successive umbrellas of authority. 

Jason: Yeah. So, so what this, the idea is that if, [00:05:00] as people, if we wanna be protected by God, right? Shielded from harmful things by God. We're going to mirror our lives after this structure of, you know, God's over everything. Then, then comes the husband, then the wife is under the husband, and then the kids are under 

her, 

Jason: her.

And so that's, that's the idea. The umbrella is God's protection, but each layer has another umbrella under it, right? So the God's umbrella covers over everything, but then the husband is over, the wife, and then the, and then the wife's got another umbrella over the kids, and then the kids are just there.

Yeah, 

Jason: so, so it's, it's, it's kinda rooted in interpretations of a lot of different scriptures, but the main one that you'll hear talked about to support this, it comes from Ephesians five, and they always read verse, uh, and I'll just read it to you. It's starting Ephesians five verse 22. It says, for example, wives should submit to their husbands as if to the, the Lord.

A husband is the head of the, his [00:06:00] wife, like Christ is head of the church that is the savior of the body. So they read that passage and they interpret that as justification for this umbrella. 

Nicole: Yeah. And, and really this kind of hierarchical, wow, I can't talk today. This structure, it overemphasizes control really, it's.

It's, um, it's this whole like love versus respect. Like women need love, but men need respect and it's, I, I don't know. It, it just overemphasizes. Yeah. The husband's control over the wife. 

Jason: Yeah. Well, again, we see, and the wife of kids, it kind, it kind of, and try ends up trying to mirror the home, the family unit that God designed after the business world that we've designed.

Right. It's like 

Nicole: the CEO and then the. See 

Jason: this is that boss. And then this is, this is the boss who reports to that boss. And you report to that boss who reports to that boss. And again, it's all about [00:07:00] who has control and, and authority instead of love and service. And really, when we start focusing on our life on who has the authority and control, it's not focusing on God or the Bible, we're, we're actually focusing on things like Eric Hartman.

Nicole: Respect my authoritarian. Yes. If you don't know who Eric 

Jason: Cartman is or what we're talking about. Good. Alright. 

Nicole: But one, one thing you might be asking is where does this line of thought come from? Where does the theology come from? 

Jason: And we kinda gave you a taste of that with that Ephesians five passage. Um, but really it's been made popular by a, by a guy by the name of Bill Gohar, who ironically was not married himself.

Uh, I didn't know that about Bill. No, he was, he was not married himself. 

Nicole: Of course not. 

Jason: Well, anyway, Bill's seminar was about understanding these basic seven basic life principles, and it was really going through and it was, there was a lot of scripture in it, but it was kind of cherry pick verses from different areas to kind of support these [00:08:00] flimsy ideas.

But really at the core of that was this idea of what the home should look like. Um, again, it goes back to God's in charge. Then the husband, then the wife, and then the kids also wrapped up in there was the idea that, um, the woman, you know, there's a verse in Timothy where it talks about how the woman is saved through child childbirth.

Right. And it doesn't really, it says that, but it doesn't really say that. But they interpret that as meaning as a woman should keep having as many kids as you possibly can. Yeah. And that, that reveals how blessed she is by God. 

Nicole: Yeah. 

Jason: Um. Yeah. 

Nicole: Um, but really it wasn't just Bill Gohar and, and various, um, evangelical teachers who 

Jason: it's still very popular today.

Yes. 

Nicole: But, um, basically it's rise, this idea, it really wasn't even that popular until like the sixties, I believe, but it was really based on like the evangelical answer to. The culture of the time. Yeah. Where, uh, there was a lot [00:09:00] of discussion about like free love and I mean, we're talking sixties and seventies here.

Mm-hmm. Um, you know, free love women were, there was this massive feminist movement. Women were coming into their own really. And, um, this was, this man's and, and various other evangelical leaders, um, answer to that saying, no, this is unholy entirely. 

Jason: Yeah. And. To be honest, that's why we are kind of seeing a rise in its popularity again, theologically and teaching wise, because we're in, in an era where, again, the home, the family unit is kind of under attack.

And so the e evangelical church's answer is to fall back on this same principle. And when we say 

Nicole: it's under attack, we view our view of it as under attack. Yes. 

Jason: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. Um, but again, the whole concept though comes from this. It's, it, yes, they have bible verses when they teach it, but it doesn't, that doesn't nearly [00:10:00] mean, that doesn't really mean that it's a biblical teaching.

Uh, it's really a teaching that uses the Bible, but, but using culture and patriarchal influence to shape Yeah. Our understanding of it. 

Nicole: Yeah. Um, and I mean like, really. Jason quoted, uh, Ephesians 5 22 about why submitting to your husbands, as you know, as unto the Lord, but in reality that's completely ignoring the verse before it.

Jason: Right? And so again, we have to be very careful because. And this is why it's important for each person, whether you're a pastor or a lay person, you need to study the scriptures for yourself, not just a snippet of a verse here and there. I, I love devotional books. I love the you version Bible app devotionals.

Those are great tools, 

Nicole: but it's so easy to twist the ver the message of the verse into whatever you [00:11:00] want it to say. Yeah, I mean, really, you can make the Bible say anything. If you just cherry pick. 

Yeah. 

Nicole: And, and that's why you have to be careful with accepting things either are widely taught in the church, it making sure that it's actually rooted in sound theology and not just theology.

That sounds good. 

Right. 

Nicole: Um, but going back to Ephesians 5 21, what, what, what, tell, tell us what that says babe. 

Jason: Ephesians 5 21 says this, so this is the verse before the one they used to support this teaching. It says, and submit to each other outta respect for Christ. 

Nicole: Sounds like you're supposed to submit to babe.

Yes. 

Jason: So why now? Again, this is Paul's teaching to the Ephesians, and so why would Paul say that? And then, you know, then go into these other things. But again, we ignore some key words. As we inver, if if we skip verse 21, go into [00:12:00] verse 22, we skip something. 'cause Paul starts verse 22 off by saying, for example.

Yeah. 

Jason: And then he uses as an example of the fact that the wive should submit to her husband. 

Yeah. 

Jason: And, and then they definitely ignore the part later on where it talks about, um, how husbands ought to love their wives in the same ways they do their own bodies. Anyone who loves his wife loves himself.

That's down in verse 28. 

Nicole: Yeah. And, and let's face it, if you love your body, taking care of your body means when your body needs something, you're going to make sure that it gets it. You're going to listen to your body signals for hunger, thirst, and, and sleep, and you're going to submit yourself to those needs.

Yes. 

Jason: Yeah. And, and so again, scriptures. It's red, it's used, but again, cherry picking and separating verses from the wider contact. And not only that, Paul even goes on later in that same chapter. At the very end of that discussion, he says, [00:13:00] this is a, this is a divine mystery, but what I'm talking about here is Christ in the church.

Yeah. 

Jason: He so, so what Paul is doing in a vision, his goal is not even really talking about marriage there. No. Yes. He's talking about, but he's using marriage as an example to describe the relationship between Jesus and his bride Jesus in the church. And he was using a lot of discussion on marriage there.

But no, marriage was not the focus. 

No. 

Jason: And he was trying to communicate to people in a period that was very patriarchal to help them understand the relationship between Jesus and the rest, the, the, the, this group of believers. 

Yeah. 

Jason: Um, and now another reason we, we come to this misconception is you go all the way back to Genesis in the very beginning.

When God created the male and female. 

Yep. 

Jason: No, it says that in Genesis one. It talks about that in Genesis one. God, some God makes them male and female 

Nicole: and he makes them male and female and gave them authority over Yeah, it 

Jason: doesn't say, and so we, [00:14:00] we read that, but we glossed over that in Genesis one and we go into Genesis two and we read that, okay, well man was made first, right?

Man was made first, so therefore, and then it was out of man that the woman was made. So therefore that must mean because the man was made first that he was. Given greater authority than the woman. And that's not true. 

Nicole: And actually I heard a very interesting interpretation of that from a Jewish scholar where when God put Adam to sleep, where we see it taken as a rib, it wasn't translated, it wasn't actually a rib.

Jason: Right. 

Nicole: The word actually means side. Mm-hmm. Or half. And so when, when God cre took Adam. He literally split Adam into two equal parts. Hmm. And so the, the scholar, the scholar actually s said that a lot of Jewish, um, a lot of, um, Jewish scriptural scholars do not believe that Adam had a gender [00:15:00] like he was genderless because he was made in a way that was not necessarily intended to reproduce via sex sexual encounters.

But when God separated him into two, and I'm using him because that's just accepted. When he separated him into two, that's when the gender was constructed in the first place. Yeah. And so you ended up with two equal parts. Yeah. Now again, 

Jason: we're not saying they were both, they were male and female. God intentionally created the male and female.

Yeah. 

Jason: Right. So there, there is a biological difference between, between them. But that was. So they could fulfill God's command of go there forth and multiply. 

Yeah. 

Jason: Right. That was part of the, you know, God says, go forth and multiply and then rule over the earth is essentially what he says. Um, so again, just because Adam was made first doesn't mean he was designed to be more important.

Matter of fact, God even says after that, the man is to leave his, [00:16:00] his, his father and mother and clinging to his wife, right? Yeah. So, so he's supposed to leave his old life behind and really essentially form that one new life with his wife. Um, and that's really why I'm really going off the deep end here.

That's, that's really why though the Jews considered adultery, uh, a, a capital pun. Crime worthy apu. Capital punishment. 

Nicole: Yeah. 

Jason: Because 

Nicole: it was literally tearing a one flesh into two. Yes, it was, it was. 

Jason: It was murder. 

Nicole: It was murder. It was the equivalent of murder. 

Jason: Yeah. 

Nicole: In that. In that regard. Um, 

Jason: yeah. And, but, and so even then, so Jesus ends up later on or you, you're, go ahead.

So, uh, we'll, we'll keep going to Genesis three. I'm getting ahead of myself. 

Yes, you are. So 

Jason: in Genesis three, right? This is another word we get the misconception. 

Yeah, 

Jason: because, so we, we, we, if you're a Christian, you've been to church all, you've heard this story a thousand times, but I'm gonna tell it again.

[00:17:00] So they're in the garden now. Even Adam and Eva there together. Together. Mm-hmm. And one day they're doing their thing and the serpent starts talking to Eve. We don't know where Adam is a 

Nicole: actually it does, we do It says who was he was with her, her husband who was with her. 

Jason: See, I ignore that detail too.

Yeah. But, but, so the starts talking to Eve and we know how the story goes. He's like, um, together, did God 

Nicole: really say that you will not, you should not eat the tree or. Yeah. E uh, eat of the tree or you will die. 

Theme song: Yeah. 

Nicole: And, and she eve answers. Adam could have, but Eve answers and she answers adding to God's word by saying, well, we must not eat of it and we must not touch it.

Well, God never said, but he must not touch it. But here's one, one thing that I've, um, actually taken note of. [00:18:00] God told Adam. Not to eve of the tree before. Mm-hmm. Eve Right. Even existed. And so Eve is hearing secondhand. Mm-hmm. So she might have gotten that additional information from Adam instead. Yeah. Or yeah, it's possible.

He was like, you know what, just don't even touch it. Or, you know, whatever. And, but because of. Because the serpent is there and he's questioning and he's creating doubt in her mind. And Adam's sitting there not really saying anything, not really responding. She takes the fruit, she eats it, she hands it to her husband and he eats.

Jason: Mm-hmm. 

Nicole: And again, he get, he had the directions entirely from God, like person to person, face to face interaction there and. And he doesn't say anything. 

Jason: Yeah. And he just watches [00:19:00] it unfold. 

Nicole: And then suddenly they both realize they're naked. They're saying that's the grand 

Jason: revelation of man's rebellion against God.

They eat from that forbidden fruit. And what's the one thing that they revealed? The, the grand thing that gave them knowledge like God in that first moment was We were naked. 

Nicole: Yeah. And so they go and hide. 

Mm-hmm. 

Nicole: And God comes looking for 'em, and God asks them, why are you hiding? And Adam says, well, I knew I was naked.

And God's like, who told you you were naked? There's no reason for you to be ashamed of being naked at this point. Why are you ashamed 

Jason: again? It now, it was also symbolic, the fact too, sin, sin awakened. They're ashamed. They're ashamed. They didn't have a reason to be ashamed or afraid until they ate from the tree.

Yeah. And because, and, and that's why they immediately tried to cover themselves. It's, it was also a sign, not, not only did they destroy the relationship with God. In that moment, 

Nicole: they tried to hide from each other. Yeah. 

Jason: It it caused them to hide from one another. 

Nicole: Yeah. [00:20:00] 

Jason: And we, that's what we see out, play out in the rest of Genesis three.

Nicole: And so God starts sharing what the consequences of their sin is. Yeah. 

Jason: He, he says he gives the different curses of sin. Yeah. So why don't you go through a few of those real quick. 

Nicole: Okay. So, um, I'm starting in verse, um, so after God said, I'm naked, or who told you you were naked? Um, in verse 12 of chapter three, it says, the man said, the woman whom you gave me, she gave me some, some of the fruit from the tree and I ate it.

So the Lord said to the woman, what is this you have done? And the woman replied, well, the serpent tricked me and I ate. And the Lord said to the serpent, because you have done this, cursed. Are you above all the cattle and all the living creatures of the field on your belly? You, you will crawl. And dust.

You will eat all the days of your life. And I will put hostility between you and the woman and her offspring and your offspring, and he will strike your head and you will strike his [00:21:00] heel. And to the woman he said, I will increase. Or I will greatly increase your labor pains with pain. You will give birth to your children.

You'll want to control your husband, but he will dominate you. And but, and to Adam, he said because you obeyed your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, you must not eat from it. Cursed is the, the ground is cursed because of you in painful toil, you'll eat in of it all the days of your life.

We'll produce thorns and thistles for you, but you will eat the grain of the field by the sweat of your brow. You will eat food until you return to the ground for out of it you were taken for your dust and to dust your return. 

Jason: Yeah. So we, real quick, we'll focus on those last two curses. 

Nicole: Yeah. 

Jason: Uh, but before I get into that, not that, that I wanna ignore the serpents because, but because there's a really cool part pointing to the fu the future 

Yes.

Jason: Of Christ, uh, restoring humanity to that relationship first. Prophecy in the Bible about Jesus. Yeah, [00:22:00] but the, I do wanna say this about the curses of sin, and there's a lot of d different opinions on this theologically, but from our framework, from my Wesleyan theological framework, from two clergy members of, from the Church of the Nazarene, when we look at the curse of sin, we have to understand that this wasn't God saying.

Giving him a curse as like a punishment. That's not where this curse comes from. Sin, sin itself carried these consequences. 

Nicole: Yeah, there are natural consequences to sin, those natural consequences to everything we do in life. For example, you stick a a fork in the light socket, you get electrocuted. That's not your parent punishing you.

That's literally. The consequence of sticking a 

Jason: yes fork 

Nicole: in a light socket. 

Jason: But, but even, even if you take the other viewpoint of that, regardless when Jesus died on the cross, [00:23:00] it was the, in, it was an, an atonement for all of our sin, not just part of it, not just the sins. We committed all of it. That would include these curses.

Nicole: Yes. And. We try to say, you know, Hey, I am no longer under the curse of sin and death because God has forgiven me, and yet we still try to live under the curse. Yeah. 

Jason: And so, but these curses worked their way into the church. They worked their way into theology, into these teachings, like the umbrella. And so the first thing I wanna point out is that bit in there, in the curse to the woman where it says, your desire will be for your husband, but he will dominate you.

I like the way the New England station, Lisa puts that. 

Nicole: You will want to control your husband. 

Jason: That's why we've had this struggle for centuries of women having equal rights that God created them to have. Right. It God designed them to be a partnership. 

Nicole: Yeah. And but the thing is, very often we see, like with, with the, with the feminist [00:24:00] movement, the reason why so many people freak out when they hear.

Somebody say, oh, I'm a feminist, is because these extreme feminists who want to dominate men, when in reality the standard feminist is really just wanting to get paid the same, 

yes. 

Nicole: They're wanting to get paid the same for doing the same job. Yeah. But which is fair. But the, there's this extreme, there's this pendulum that's swinging, and on one side of the pendulum is toxic masculinity, and on the other side is toxic feminine.

Feminists Feminism. 

Jason: Neither viewpoint is of God. 

Nicole: No, 

Jason: but, but what the viewpoint of God was. I created you both. I created the male and female to multiply and subdue the earth. 

Yeah. 

Jason: That's the way God designed us. But what, where, what the umbrella does is it takes this curse that that's on the woman that has a nodule consequence of sin and says, you're trapped here in this role forever.

[00:25:00] Yeah. 

Jason: You're trapped in this. Undermining. And, and, and I always say this when I'm, especially when I'm doing premarital counseling, I'll say, if you ever look at your wife and say, I'm the boss, you do what I say, I'm the man in the house. That's what they do. Every time that I laugh at Nicole's case, 

Nicole: I can, I know you're joking too, but I cannot help it.

Jason: But I also notice as I say that, like the hair's in the back end, Nicole's neck stand up because she's ready to fight. Um, and it's almost a universal re response. From women when you say that, 

Nicole: and really the only women who don't respond that way are the ones who are so browbeat. Yeah. So used to living in this, in this.

Subservient role. Yeah. 

Jason: And, and so what the umbrella does, instead of focusing on the redemption of Christ in this dynamic, it, it focuses instead on the idea that no, the woman, you have to suppress that natural reaction that God, I, I say a God-given reaction to that statement. You have to suppress it and submit to the authority of your husband.

Whereas the alternative, what [00:26:00] the Bible really is teaching us beginning in Genesis one. And to, through the death and resurrection of Jesus is that no, Jesus died to do away with that curse, to restore woman to her rightful place as partner with man. And not only, and, and really God's been so we 

Nicole: can do what God has called us to do in the first place.

Jason: And, and even if you, you know, I'm skipping over centuries of. Of history to get to that point between Genesis and Jesus. Mm-hmm. But I'll also see this, there are glimpses in the Old Testament. Mm-hmm. Now it's crude to our modern understanding of things, 

Nicole: but there's glimpses of God trying to restore that design.

Jason: Mm-hmm. 

Nicole: Of men and women being equal partners. And you also see a downward slope of sp people's spiritual relationship with God. That parallels their treatment of women. 

Yeah. 

Nicole: Um, in fact, a commentary that I read in, uh, [00:27:00] in judges, if you look at the book of judges, the, the, um, people of Israel when they're following God, there's women that are in leadership, women like Deborah, there's women who are revered like jl.

And then you get to the end of, of judges where they're just, they're sacrificing their daughters. And they're cutting up concubines and sending him to the far reaches of Israel. And, but if you notice the relat, the nation's relationship with God is so corrupt at that point. Yes. It's awful. 

Jason: Yeah. Now the other side of this is, you know, we just focus on the woman aspect of it.

Skipping down here. Okay. Um, um. But the other side of this coin is now if you, if you stick to this belief that the curse is in place and you're sticking with this umbrella theology, [00:28:00] not only does it hold woman down under the man's headship, but what that also does to the man is it puts all this extra pressure on him in the relationship.

And that's where the curse that comes in for me. And at the end of chapter three comes in. 

Yeah, 

Jason: it's men have this. 

Nicole: E expectation to provide. Yeah. 

Jason: And this internal struggle of if I'm not providing, if, if I'm not making sure my family's taken care of, then I'm not good enough. 

Nicole: Yeah. 

Jason: And all men, I'm speaking, uh, well, maybe I shouldn't say all men, but most of us as guys would, can relate to that.

We feel that pressure if we're, if our family's struggling, we feel like it's our responsibility to do it alone, to go out. And bridge those gaps. And sometimes we, even if our wives go to work, we start to feel like lesser of, of men. And, and, and, and so, and also that's kind of where this, this whole. Men make more than women think comes into play too, because as men we feel like less of men if the woman's earning more than us.

Nicole: Yeah. Actually I read an [00:29:00] interesting study about that too, where, um, there was a study done about, uh, the, the reasons for divorce, the cause for divorce in marriages, both in secular relationships and in Christian relationships. And it's a 50 50 split and the most common reason for divorce. Outside of like, the most common reason that led to the divorce was financial struggles and, and the percentage actually went up when the woman made more money than the man.

Mm-hmm. 

Nicole: Because the man felt less masculine and less like the provider that he's feels like he's supposed to be. And that was equal for both the secular household and the Christian household with one exception. Husbands and wives who believe that, that, um, they were equal partners and they were designed to be equal partners and live in [00:30:00] mutual submission.

Their percentage went down drastically when the wife made more. Hmm. 

Jason: Interesting. 

Nicole: Yeah. And in fact, more husbands felt more confident when their wife was making more money because they felt like they had, they had married up. 

Jason: That's a very interesting thing. 'cause again, it, it really to me exposes if we live under the umbrella theology and we, we take that as the, as the truth.

Mm-hmm. 

Jason: What it does is it creates pressure. And not I, we have done here in our notes that we're gonna talk about spiritual manipulation, but I think it's just manipulation in general. 

Yeah. 

Jason: Including using the Bible too. So men will use the Bible and going to church and things like that to tell the woman, okay, you have to submit to my headship.

You have to do things my way. But what do, what I've observed from my role as a pastor is oftentimes couples that practice this complementarian viewpoint like this under the umbrella. [00:31:00] The, the wife will say she submits, but then at the same time, if she, she knows her, hu she'll, she believes her husband's the head, but she also wants to, she wants what she wants and so she, and so she 

Nicole: does what she can to control the situation and manipulate your husband and manipulate her husband to make the the decision that she wants him to make.

Jason: Yeah. So instead of being partners in this, they become, they become partners in the sense of, as in Republicans and Democrats or partners in things, they are trying to manipulate the other one. Uh, either trying to manipulate till they have the power or the other one has the power. Right. And it's one of the things that annoys me the most about sitcoms when we're watching.

Mm-hmm. 

Jason: Um, like, oh, I can't remember what's the new one with Matt LeBlanc?

Man of the Family, or, 

Jason: I can't remember what it's called, but throughout, it's a really funny series. But, but there's this, there's this constant power struggle between him, him, he and his wife, 

family, man. No, that was, no, I don't know. 

Jason: But he's, there's a constant power struggle between them on who's running the household.[00:32:00] 

But that's what happens in our marriages. It is a struggle onto who's in charge and who's getting their way. Um, and that, that, that's not a partnership that's not working together. That's a political alliance. Right. And, and political alliances are fragile. 

Man with a plan. 

Jason: Sorry, man, with a plan was the name of the show.

Yeah, if you wanna check that show, it's good. If you like friends, you like Matt. You know the guy that plays Joey from friends. Matt LeBlanc is Joey. But it is essentially, Joey is a grown up in a real life relationship with a family. It's hilarious. 

It 

Jason: is. But it, but again, marriage is strongest when both voices matter and power is shared, not hoarded.

Um, so. Kind of a good way to look at that and see how, see where the Bible, you know, truly is talking about. This mutual submission is in Jesus' own teaching on marriage, right? He gets asked in mark 10 by the, by the Pharisees, I believe it was about, is it legal for a man to divorce his wife? [00:33:00] And of course, Jesus does the most Jesus thing of all, like he does all the time, the gospel.

He answers the question without answering the question directly. Yes. And rather than just say, say that he, well, he says something, the facts of God allowed divorce to happen because your hearts were hard. Yeah. Right. And, and let's face it, what a guy would do before divorce was legalized in scripture was he would probably just either kill his wife or leave her in the woods.

Nicole: Yeah. Uh, there was a lot of, um, a lot of homicide between spouses because of, because of situations where the man just didn't want to. Deal with his wife anymore. And they weren't. I mean, they were somewhat polygamists at the time, but at the same time, not always. 

Jason: Yeah. But the, but the other side of that. So Jesus says that to him, right?

He addresses that part of it. Um, and if you're a divorce person, listen to this, this, again, God doesn't want us to get divorced, but God also understands, [00:34:00] uh. We don't go to when a person dies, does God want a person to die? 

Nicole: No. No. But we don't go and preach up the dead body. 

Jason: Yes. When a marriage is dead, 

Nicole: sometimes it's better to just put it out of its, 

Jason: it's better to bury it.

Nicole: Yeah. 

Jason: Um, because again, often what happens is one person is trying to save the marriage, so they're, it's like, it's like they're working together to do CPR on a dummy. Right. One person is doing the chest compressions, but the other person's holding a pillow over its face. 

Yeah. 

Jason: That doesn't help anything.

Yeah, 

Jason: it's dead. Um, so if you're divorce system, this, that, that's what, that's taking us way off topic. But Jesus goes on from that teaching and he talks about how God designed marriage to be between one man and one woman for life. And in Mark chapter 10, verse nine, now this is from the common English Bible.

It says, therefore humans must not pull apart what God has put together. So these are the words of Jesus. And in that phrase where he, he says, what God has put together is an interesting phrase. Some summit translations, we'll use the [00:35:00] phrasing, but God has joined together. 

Mm-hmm. 

Jason: The idea there is this idea of a yoke between two oxen, right.

Oxen pulling them, picture oxen pulling a, a cart full of whatever people. Cornbread, whatever. It's rocks full of rocks. But the, the oxen have this bar that connects them and they're connected side by side, working together to pull that cart. That's the idea. Jesus, Jesus is using to describe marriage. Two oxen, side by side, working together to pull a cart.

And what Jesus is saying is what God has joined together, what God has joked together, man should not pull, pull apart, but the imagery Jesus uses. Is not one of one oxen in front of the other pool and the other one, because that would hurt the oxen. 

Nicole: Yeah. Or, or even two, like one oxen that's much stronger than the other and, and there's a strong partner and a weak partner.

No, these are two equally yoked oxen. Two very strong, very. Very capable on their [00:36:00] own oxen that are just made stronger when they're together. 

Jason: Yeah. So mutual submission is a biblical concept. It's mm-hmm. A about, it's, it's not about who's in charge, but how we love one another. 

Nicole: Yeah. 

Jason: Yeah. 

Nicole: And what I find interesting about this is that Paul uses that reference later when he talks about being unequal, don't to not be unequally yoked with an nonbeliever, and the reason for that.

Unequal, like specifically where he's addressing faith is because when two people are not of one mind, it's easy to try to pull the other person to one direction or another. And so, um, you don't wanna be unequally yoked with someone who's just as strong as you are, but heading in a different direction.

But the point of being equally yoked period is really what Paul is talking about too, is. You're not having one person submit [00:37:00] and one person lead. It's, you're both working on this marriage together. You're both working on this life together. 

Jason: Yeah. You're living in the freedom of your who you are, but in the freedom of that life shared with the other person.

Nicole: Yeah. And when you both have the same goals and, and destination in mind. You're gonna be head, you're both gonna be headed in that direction with equal fervor. 

Jason: Yeah. And so what this view of marriage is called is egalitarianism, and it is, again, it's a biblical concept. 

Mm-hmm. 

Jason: Um, and so now that we know what it is and we've kind of find, what does it actually look like in a marriage, and this is something Nicole and I try to practice, is that we're equal partners in this.

Uh, you've already heard some things where we're, we're probably a little different than most couples. I do most of the cooking. 

Nicole: And I'm the one that likes to actually use the power tools. 

Jason: Yeah. I do the handle the laundry and 

Nicole: I make the laundry soap 

Jason: and she makes the laundry soap. Yeah. So we partner in these different tasks, you [00:38:00] know, and, um, when it comes to making decisions for our family, it's, I don't look at Nicole and say, I'm the man in the house.

We're gonna do it this way. We have a discussion about it. Now, there are times where she will yield. To me on a decision, but that's her choice. It's not because I've demanded it of her 

Nicole: and vice versa. I, there've been times where you've yielded and, and then there are times where I'll just tell you what's happening and you'll go with it and vice versa.

You'll tell me what's happening and I'll go with it. 

Jason: Yeah. And a common question we get is, well, what happens if you guys can't make it a shared decision? 

Nicole: What happens is the decision's not made at all. 

Jason: Yeah. We wait, we continue. We either pause whatever it is until we can reach a decision together. Or we just let it go.

Yeah. Because it wasn't something meant for us to do or to have Yeah. Because we are not in agreement upon it. 

Yeah. 

Jason: And the times where, where we have overstepped that 

Nicole: it's been awful. 

Jason: Yeah. But, but alt is, is is a learning to [00:39:00] lead by example. Not control. 

Yeah. 

Jason: Um, love, love by example, not coercion. That's what, what it is.

Mutual submission doesn't mean weakness. It means trusting each other with strength. 

Nicole: Yeah. And, and the thing is, is like when I, when I am strong enough to make a decision on my own without having you be the final word, it kind of releases a little bit of your mental load. 

Mm-hmm. 

Nicole: Because I mean, I see your frustration whenever I can't decide where I want to eat.

You're just like, wait, I have to make this decision on my own. Mm-hmm. 

Jason: Just tell me what you want to eat. Now, in fairness, the last time a woman knew what she wanted to eat, 

Nicole: I'm gonna murder you. Not really, that was not a confession. Um, but, but no, the mental load is a real thing. [00:40:00] And it's so, it's such a, a hard burden.

Like, um, the. I've, I've seen it talked about in women's groups a lot where women will talk about how, you know, they have to make all the decisions for the family with like, you know, okay. The, the menu for the week and, and, um, if. Kid, the family can afford to do summer camp if the kids can, could afford to go to summer camp or, um, what's, what clothes to get, what sales to, to, um, take advantage of at the stores and what groceries to buy.

What like it's, it's this massive mental load. But when we are like with this idea of like, man, the man is in charge, I would have to force that load onto you. 

Hmm. 

Nicole: And it would just be this constant, okay, I have all these decisions that I have to make as a man of the house and all this stuff, when in reality we were never meant [00:41:00] to carry that load on our own at all.

The idea that women have to manage everything in the home is a whole other issue that because the man's in charge, he's been a lot of men, force the, the function of the family on the woman. To do on her own. And again, it's not a mental load that she was ever meant to carry alone either. It was something that you and I as a married couple, we talk through these things.

Mm-hmm. Are we gonna do summer camp this year with our kids? Um, okay, we need to go get groceries. What are we doing this week? And we talk about it and. I mean, well, Jason does most of the cooking, so I let him make the decision as like, yeah. There are 

Jason: times where I don't ask anybody's opinion, anyone about for dinner except for my own.

Nicole: Yeah. And that's okay because you're the one doing the cooking. Um, but it's this idea of sharing the entire load of the marriage. Yeah. The [00:42:00] decisions, the, the burden, everything. Yeah. 

Jason: And, and now. Keep on. I've had this viewpoint for a very long time. 

Nicole: I'm fairly new to it. 

Jason: But one of the things that kind of really reinforced it for me, and really I felt like strengthened our relationship was when I took my first lead pastor assignment.

We had been associate for a while, but we had taken our first one, and when we agreed to take that first assignment, you and I were not in agreement on that. No, we were not. Whether we were, whether that church was the right fit or not, 

no. 

Jason: And rather than, rather than me yield to her uncertainty and, and pause and wait with her, I went ahead with it.

And it was, it was a difficult road 

Nicole: now. And in fairness to you, I was still very much in this complementarian, you are the man of the house. You have to make this decision. 

Mm-hmm. 

Nicole: And, [00:43:00] and I will submit to your decision. 

Jason: Mm-hmm. 

Nicole: And it was awful. 

Jason: Yeah, we, we were both in a very tough situation. Um, 

Nicole: I mean, we made some amazing friends there and we grew, we grew as ministers 

Jason: there, 

Nicole: but it was, 

Jason: it was hard because we were starting from a place where we weren't necessarily in alignment with each other.

And so when things got tough at the church, one, I knew it was my decision to get us there. 

Nicole: And I knew it was your decision. Yeah. And Nicole 

Jason: knew it. And so where did the pressure shift? The pressure shifted all to me rather than us shouldering the load together and working together in ministry. It was, 

Nicole: and as much as I tried to shoulder the load with you Yeah.

The problem was, is I was never wanting that load in the first place. 

Yeah. 

Nicole: And when, when there's somebody that's not really wanting to be there, their heart's not in shouldering that load. 

Jason: Yeah, exactly. [00:44:00] But we grew through that and our understanding of what it really looks like to be mutual sim submissive together 

mm-hmm.

Jason: Grew from that time period that's, ever since then when we've made decisions, especially when it comes to transitioning our family from one place to another, it's, it's a decision we make together. Now, as our kids are getting older, they're gonna be start being brought into those discussions 

Nicole: because we're just not gonna uproot them for no reason.

Yeah. 

Jason: Now, the church I'm currently serving at. To put them at risk. We're not ta having those discussions right now. 

Nicole: No. 

Jason: Um, and 

Nicole: our kids are at least once a month or they're double checking. We're not planning on leaving, are we? Yes, yes. No, 

Jason: but again, we have conversations, mutual con, mutual respect, uh, all, all the while, all of us knowing that God is ultimately the one who, who's, who's the head of our house.

Yeah. 

Jason: He's the one leading. 

Yep. 

Jason: And our job is to submit to him. Uh, so maybe you've been listening. Maybe you're holding an umbrella [00:45:00] and maybe you're poking holes in one. I don't know what, where you're at in your relationship or your understanding right now. Or maybe you're just tossing the whole thing in the recycling bin.

Nicole: But regardless, we just really hope that this episode helps you take a rest, ah, fresh look. It's a restful look too, a fresh look at what submission really means in the way of Jesus. 

Jason: Hey, and I know so much of our culture right now is on this idea of power plays and taking charge and authority, but that's not the way God designed our relationship.

Matter of fact, that's not how God's own relationship works within the Trinity. 

No, 

Jason: it's about partnership. It's about freedom that comes through love 

Nicole: and it's about serving the other. So if today's episode gave you something to think about or laugh about, go ahead and follow or subscribe wherever you listen.

Jason: Hey, and do us a favor. Don't forget to leave a review or share this episode with someone you love. It really helps us get the word [00:46:00] out. 

Nicole: And you can also find us on Facebook and Instagram at Table for two Podcast. So come and join the conversation. 

Jason: Grayson peaced to you In the name of Jesus, wait 

Theme song: through storms and swallowed on Noise Church, Jesus and hand copy and mugs are light held together by Grayson.

A few hugs they said she submits me, said we do. It's not about ladder since me serving the kingdom and laugh lines and cows hands and routine at this. Table for two. There's room for you up.