Raising PKs Without Breaking Them

What’s it really like growing up as the pastor’s kid?

In this heartfelt (and hilarious) episode, we sit down with special guest Gabrielle DiCamillo-Strope, an adult PK with stories to tell. From awkward assumptions to quiet expectations, Gabby opens up about the joys and challenges of life in the ministry spotlight—and how her parents, her faith, and her identity all evolved along the way.

Whether you're a pastor raising kids, a current PK trying to find your footing, or just curious what goes on behind the parsonage curtain—this one’s for you.

👀 Inside this episode:
 • The pressure to be “perfect” in public
 • What church folks don’t see behind the scenes
 • Moments of grace that helped her stay grounded
 • Encouragement for PKs and pastors alike

This one’s full of laughter, insight, and hope. Pull up a chair.

Thanks for pulling up a chair at Table for Two. If you enjoyed today's conversation, we'd love for you to join us on Facebook! It is where we share behind-the-scenes updates, chat with listeners, and keep the conversation going throughout the week. We'd love to see you there.

Transcript

Ep9 Raising PKs Without Break Them

Jason: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. Welcome back to Table for Two, where the coffee's hot. The stories are honest, and the ministry life is always a little unpredictable. 

Nicole: We are your host, Jason and Nicole, two pastors doing life together. We're raising kids, serving the church, and trying not to let the house burn down in the process.

Jason: True story. Uh, today's episode is one we've looked forward to for a while because we're talking about something very close to home. We're talking about what it means to raise pastors kids without breaking them. 

Nicole: That's an important. Add, add on there because they say pastor's kids either end up in ministry or therapy or both?

More likely both. But honestly there's some truth behind that joke. Um, there's always some, so much beauty, so much struggle and sacred ground in their stories. 

Jason: Yes. And we're not telling this story alone. We have a special friend of ours joining us for this episode. Yes. This is table for two 

Theme Song: for storms and swallowed on [00:01:00] noise.

Church cheese and hand copy and mugs are light held together by grace. And a few hugs they said she submits. We said we both do. It's not about ladders since me. You serving the kingdom in eighth ones and genes, laugh lines and cows, hands and routines at this. For two, there's room for you. Pull up will tell the truth, love, and faith the side.

Jason: Well, before we dive into the main content of this episode, let's start off with our table for two lighthearted question of the week. And the question is, what's one thing one of our kids has done during church that made you want to disappear through the floorboards? 

Nicole: There's one story that comes to mind and I think you know what it is, and it wasn't during church, it was during Bible study.

I'm not sure I should share it 'cause there's a little language [00:02:00] in it. What do you think? 

Jason: I think you should share it, but just know we don't talk this way normally, but for the sake of this story, there might be, we might have to up our rating to PG 13. 

Nicole: Okay. So I guess I'll share it. Um, so when we were in Meadville, I was hosting a Bible study and Jason had taken the kids upstairs to kind of keep an eye on them while, because it was a lady's Bible study and we were going over some, some lady stuff, I guess, and my son, Benjamin, decided that he wanted to get a drink of water, which required him to come downstairs and go through the living room where we were meeting and into the kitchen.

So he went and grabbed a glass, a cup and he, he filled it up with water and he was in the process of carrying it up the stairs, but he tripped in the living room and he spilled a little bit and not a big deal. 

Jason: Yeah. Little boys do [00:03:00] that 

Nicole: and it's water. It dries. 

Jason: Yep. 

Nicole: But this poor little boy. He got so frustrated with himself and he's just, he, he gets this pouty look on his face and then he just gets angry and he's like, damn it.

Now again, we don't talk this way. And actually before I could even react, our board secretary was there and she was amazing. And she's just like, honey, we don't talk like that. And poor little Ben gets. Just get so heartbroken because he knew he had made a mistake. He had said an adult word that he is not allowed to say, and, and he thought he was in so much trouble.

And so he starts crying and we're like, honey, it's not that big of a deal. But he runs up the stairs and he sits at the top of the stairs. 

Jason: Yes. 

Nicole: And just wailing as loud as possible where the 

Jason: ladies can all still see him [00:04:00] 

Nicole: and hear him. But he's wailing at the top of the stairs, and as he's wailing, he's saying the same thing over and over again.

I said, damn it. 

Jason: Yes. And it was. It was hysterical, but mortifying. At the same time, 

Nicole: yes, I, I definitely wanted to crawl into the floorboards that day. Um, now looking back, it's one of the most hilarious stories ever, but it was mortifying than and completely derailed Bible study, I'm not gonna lie. Yes. 

Jason: Well, my story is not really just one story, and it's really not nearly as dramatic as Nicole's.

And, and I probably shouldn't be embarrassed by this, but it, it did, it did embarrass me a little bit each time it happened. So if, you know, our oldest daughter, Jaden, Jaden loves everybody. Mm-hmm. There's not a person that she doesn't see as her friend. She may not know your name, where you're from or what you're actually into, but she, if she meets you, she considers you her friend.[00:05:00] 

Nicole: Yeah. And, and I think the reason why it's embarrassing is because it's so unnatural that assumptions are made about it. 

Jason: Yes. Well, that and, yeah. Yeah. So. Every time we've gone to interview somewhere, Jay, Jayden is our only child that experienced life with us before we entered the ministry. Like we were, we were involved in ministry, but not to the degree that, you know, we are now.

Um, and so I remember every time we interviewed somewhere and keep mind, Jayden was what, one when we started this interview process. Yeah. Whenever we, we interviewed somewhere, Jayden had this snack for finding the people she needed to influence the most and convincing them that they liked her enough to hire us.

And, and that's what makes it embarrassing for me is because it almost in some ways might like, make it seem like we were using our daughter to try and get a position. But that's not what was happening. No. It was just Jayden being Jaden. So like, you know, our [00:06:00] first, our first youth pastor job. Um, he was a, an a guy that, you know, he had, he had kids of his own and, and a couple of 'em were old enough to really, that you could possibly have grandkids.

So holding little Jaden, 1-year-old in his arms, made him realize that. And he, he really did treat Jaden like a granddaughter. Mm-hmm. The entire time we were there. Yeah. We were only there a year, but, uh, but he treated her so well and that whole church did. And then fast forward to our next youth pastor assignment, which was across the country from Colorado, Pennsylvania.

We fly out there and we're interviewing, we're staying with the pastor and his family. And actually, you gonna meet one of this pastor's daughters today. And uh, but we were interviewing with that family. And again, he has a daughter that's, you know, daughters that are growing up, right? One's in high school, one's going off to co.

Was, was getting ready to graduate from college at that point, I think. 

Nicole: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. 

Jason: And, and so, so little Jaden, keep in mind, she's about three now. Crawls up into his lap during dinner and falls asleep. Like she didn't know this [00:07:00] guy at all, but she crawled in his lap and fell asleep, and that's how we got that job.

My first pastoring job, we were at, we were at dinner with our district superintendent on the Pittsburgh district and. He, Jayden just sits up next to him and just is like, buttering him up and browning him to the point where she didn't even need to that time. No, but it, it really helped influence things.

But then fast forward to when we interviewed at our current assignment. 

Nicole: Yeah. That this one's true. 

Jason: This is, this is the one that, again, it was super cute, but also kind of embarrassing at the same time, so. The church where we're at now. They just, you know, we, we, we came here, we interviewed with the church board that, that interview went really well.

And then they decided to take our whole family out to a local restaurant here called El and Cheeto. And I'm gonna put publicize them on the air. 'cause if you're ever in Urban Urbana, Kentucky, you need to get stopped by, have to go with Whoo. But anyway, they take us there and Jayden is sitting next to, to a lady named Sandy [00:08:00] at our church.

And Sandy is our board secretary. Um, and so Jayden's sitting next to her and we're about halfway through the meal where Jayden looks up at Sandy with these big loving eyes and says, I really hope you pick us. And, uh, so needless to say, that night when the board got together to decide whether or not to extend a call to us, uh.

Sandy said to us, I voted for Jayden. And so, so Jayden was voted in here and we were the, the, the bonus prize. I, I suppose, but again, I didn't put my kid up to this at, at all. She just naturally did this. She just 

Nicole: loves people and, and she loves being able to connect with them. And build relationship with them.

And so when she connects with someone, she wants to be able to continue to connect to the, with that person. And so, you know, she connected with Jim, she connected with Raymond. She most recently connected with Sandy. And she [00:09:00] just loves being able to build those relationships. And, and every time we've left, it's been heartbreaking for her because 

Jason: these are people she loves.

Yes. Yeah. But, um, so that, that's, that's us, that's our story, I guess. Yeah. But that being said, let's, let's kind of dig into the meat of today's episode. 

Gabby: No. So I'll just do this one. 

Nicole: So today we are not doing this podcast episode alone. We've actually invited Gabrielle de Camillo stroke to join us. You do hyphenate, right?

Gabby: Uh, technically not legally, but, 

Nicole: oh, okay. Well. So Gabby, um, she is not just an amazing person. Um, she is also an adult who survived the life as a PK and lived to tell, tell the tail she's joining us to reflect on her own story, the joys and the challenges, and what she hope or, and hope [00:10:00] and what hope she can offer other.

Ministry families, especially children. 

Jason: I'm not calling her Gabrielle. I know her as Gabby. Gabby, welcome to the table. Uh, why don't, why don't you share a little bit about yourself, you know, how, how you met us and, um, what it is you hope to share with people through this podcast episode. 

Gabby: Yeah, yeah. Please call me Gabby, only, uh, you could call me Gabriel when they're mad at me.

Um. Yeah. So I met you guys because, uh, you know, we decided to come to a random church in Monongahela, western Pennsylvania area, um, and decided that you're gonna be my youth pastor. And, um, then Nicole adopted me as her sister, and I became the aunt to your children. And I can't live without them, but. So a little bit [00:11:00] about me.

Um, I just graduated from medical school. Woohoo. Um, I still live in Pennsylvania and yeah, I just, uh, my goal in life is to help people love that. 

Jason: I believe that. Love that like the way you helped little Kyle through those doors. 

Gabby: Yeah, 

Nicole: that's a different story. 

Jason: Yeah. 

Nicole: That might be a deep dive for another episode.

Jason: Yes. That would be thing is not to teach youth group students. Oh. Like Gabby might find hard to believe right now is that I'm actually teaching the kids group right now. 

Nicole: Yeah. And he is doing a really great job of it 

Gabby: that you find that hard to believe, but yeah. Alright. 

Jason: They're a bunch of like rowdy boys, so Yeah, 

Nicole: that's, that's why he.

Jason: No, we, we love Gabby. She would, she was the first person to hold her son then outside of the Kohler myself. 

Nicole: Yeah. 

Jason: Um, that wasn't medical staff. Um, [00:12:00] 

Nicole: yeah, I know your dad was really jealous about that. Gabby.

Gabby: He is always jealous 

Jason: and it's, it's to now my son Ben, for a long time thought Gabby was his girlfriend and was really upset. When she got married, but I think, I think Ben's finally come around to Joey a little bit. He kind of started to tolerate him 

Gabby: sometimes. Yeah, he still gets mad at me if I don't call him enough, but

Nicole: he doesn't, he doesn't really tell us when he's like texting people or calling people. Does he, does he text you pretty often? 

Gabby: Depends. Yeah, about once a week. And then when we, we call about once a month, and then every time I call, he's always like, have you haven't called me in forever? And I was like, I'm sorry.

Nicole: Not like you're doing [00:13:00] anything. 

Gabby: I know, I know. He, he keeps, he keeps me, uh, um, he, he keeps me, uh, committed to, uh. Keep hands up. So 

Jason: he demands it. Yes, 

Gabby: yes. 

Jason: Well, so yeah. Now, last week actually on the podcast, we told the story about when your dad asked the congregation if they could find their peter and the reaction of the church, the church youth group.

Uh, it was our, kind of our, well, I can't remember what the lighthearted question was, but 

Nicole: it was just like, what is like something shocking that happened during church or, yeah, that's what it 

Jason: was. What's the most shocking thing that ever happened to you during church or, you know, outrageous. And that was my story.

So now the whole world knows that story. 

Gabby: Yeah. And, and there was no, no, that's not, that's not the first thing that he said that [00:14:00] 

Nicole: he.

Gabby: Yeah, and I mean, I always remember was when we had the whole church praying over us before we went off the camp and we're all up at the altar and all I know is the youth group looks up and the entire church like fucking, they just raised my hands, but they should have raised them in a different way because, you know, I remember that Hitler's not okay.

Nicole: I remember that that was something that Julian was like. Obsessed with after 

Jason: he was all about that. So, so, daddy, you know, what are some early memories that shapes your identity as a pastor's kid? Like some things that you remember that, and maybe things that you, that you know, that, that maybe, do you help realize that, okay, my life's a little different than other kids.

Gabby: Yes, of course. Um, I'll do positives and [00:15:00] negatives with that one because I feel like it's a two-sided question. Mm-hmm. Um, and it keeps taken two different ways. Um, well first off, whenever you'll kind of start realizing that your alerts difference would pass, this kid is you have more eyes watching you as you're walking around the church.

So not only does that mean that you have more people making sure. You're not getting into trouble, but that means you have more rules that you don't know that you have to follow. So that means you have to address certain ways according to different people in the church. You have to talk certain ways, you have to act certain ways, and the negative to that is they just have this assumed identity that they kind of put on you as a pass kid and these expectations that you have to live up to.

But I will say a positive to that is you have more people looking out for you. And something I didn't really realize when I was younger is I have all these people I can go to and as I grew up, [00:16:00] I could rely on them more to be there for me. Um, but when I was younger, I just thought of them as, oh, that's another person.

Yeah. Changed. Right. But just definitely something early on start to know this is to just have more roles and expectations and put on teams. 

Jason: Yeah. I, yeah, that's, I think that's something we can definitely sense. 

Nicole: Yeah. 

Jason: On our kids a lot. 

Nicole: It's al Als. It's also something that I as a teacher's kid kind of relate to as well.

'cause it was like expected that, you know, I would get, um, you know, the good grades even though I didn't, it was, I was not a good student. But, um, but I had also be like, well, the haven in school and never get into trouble and all this other stuff. And, um. And so for me, it's something that I'm acutely aware of, especially like with Jaden because she is so much her own person and I wanna feed into that.

So I'm like, I'm [00:17:00] kind of a little, I get bristle a little bit. There's somebody who's like, Nope, you have to dress a certain way or, or do this, or sit this way or anything. So, no, I try to be, I try to be gentle. I try.

Jason: Um, now, now Gabby, do you have any like hilarious or cringeworthy pastor kids stories that you would be comfortable with sharing that people might find entertaining? Um, 

Gabby: um, what were you, were you gonna say something else that No, I figured I just stop there. Um, yeah, I mean, well, I mean, one, not definitely.

So, I mean, I was a stubborn kid, but there was this one time we were playing, me and my sister and her best friend, Maddie, we were playing in the fellowship hall [00:18:00] and we were told not to already by like two of the older ladies in the church. And then we had like this ball and they, my sister and Maddie.

Broke this candle opera thing. Uh oh. In the app Fellowship hall and blamed me on it. And then I'm the one that got in trouble for it. Um, no, no one, not my parents. My parents weren't the ones who punished me. It was like the church people. Okay. And then they told my parents later, and then I got punched twice.

Yeah. And, um. To this day, my parents still think that I'm li I, I lied about it and was saying, trying to push the blame off. And my sister Maddie still laughed at the fact that they got away with it.

Jason: That's mean, that's awful. 

Nicole: That's, 

Gabby: I was gonna say, that's not the person that they would blame something 

Nicole: on me. 

Gabby: Um, 

Nicole: oh no. Yeah.[00:19:00] 

Gabby: Yeah, I mean that when before me and my sister got along, so we're, we're like best friends though, so it's fine. But she used to hate me. But that one, that was a very vivid memory. I remember being so angry. So it was like I did not break it. And no one, no one would really, not even my parent and I got punished twice.

Jason: Yeah, that, that, that makes it worse when you get punished twice for something you didn't commit and no one will hear you out. 

Gabby: And then, and then another thing that they would do is it would, in the woman's bathroom, if you turn the light off, it turns off all the lights, like even in the stall. And they knew I was afraid of the dark.

They would come by and turn the light off on me when I was going to the bathroom. And I would like scream and like so loud and then I would get yelled up for screaming, 

Jason: but not the one turning light off in the bathroom. 

Gabby: [00:20:00] No.

Nicole: That's hilarious. Oh, I miss that bathroom though. That's an awesome bathroom. 

Jason: This is a pretty good, the couch 

Nicole: and everything. Yeah, it's a fainting couch and you guys' church bathroom. That is amazing. 

Jason: And do feel like bent. I do feel like Ben is that kid with us. Like everyone in our church here thinks that Emmy is sweet, innocent, and doesn't talk or say anything, but she's really the, the troublemaker and the instigator of the whole, of the whole crew.

Nicole: She will do everything she can to get everybody else in trouble. She is, yeah. 

Jason: Now, what are some, uh, misconceptions or assumptions that church folks have made about you as a pastor's kid that you wish Yeah, maybe they hadn't, they hadn't done that. 

Gabby: Um, I mean, [00:21:00] I mean, going back to like how Nicole was thing before, how being like a teacher's kid, you always like, we're assumed have a good grade.

And granted, I like eventually, like in high school and college, I eventually got better grades 'cause obviously I ended up becoming a doctor. But I had to really study and try hard and like work to get the grades I got. Like school wasn't easy for me. Like when I was in elementary school. All I wanted to do was to like go outside and play with my friends at recess and I got a lot of C's and sometimes D's and.

Like, it was always like a big fight with my parents and like all of the church people always just assumed like, oh, like you get good grades, like blah, blah, blah, and like, you should be doing well in school. And it's like, I don't, and um, when I, and so then I guess that gave me the mentality that I was like, like stupid and that I should be doing better in [00:22:00] school and why am I not?

And, um, so then I started trying to work harder and I, and I couldn't like, get the grief that I wanted no matter how hard I tried. Right. And eventually I, I figured it out and I got help to be able to do that. But it was just the ga like, they just assumed that I should be smart enough to do that. It was like right.

There shouldn't be that assumption for, I don't think there should be that assumption. 

Nicole: Yeah. 

Jason: No, there shouldn't be. No. 

Gabby: Or, and then if you might make it more, I guess on the church side of things, there is the student that, you know everything about the Bible. You're not the one that went to seminary about like, right, like your or your mom.

Or your mom. Did you know the, the one who's to pastor. And so like, she would like say something about the Bible and like, I don't know, I know I know the bad Bible stories because like I grew up in the church, but I don't know everything about the Bible. I have the same questions and. [00:23:00] Concerns that you guys have.

I'm learning the same things that you guys have because I am a lay person when it comes to the Bible. 'cause I didn't go to Sunday. You 

Jason: Yeah, right. Well, we had that experience. So Jayden's just now getting into youth group here, that doesn't make you feel old, Gabby. Um, it should. 

Gabby: Um, it does. 

Jason: Yeah. So Jade's just now starting a youth group and, and, uh, we were chatting with our students.

You know, we, we only have, we have a very small group right now. And we were playing some game and we were asking a Bible trivia, and the, the other adult leader helping us was shocked that Jayden didn't know the answers to it. And I'm just like, we've not talked about that with her unless they talked about it in Sunday school.

Nicole: Well, the thing is, is she, she appreciates the Bible. She understands the importance of scripture and everything, but that's not her passion the way it is for Jason and I, because we're the pastors. She's a little science nerd. 

Gabby: She's exactly. 

Nicole: You ask her any dinosaur information, she'll tell you right off, [00:24:00] but she's, I'm glad 

Gabby: that's never changed.

Jason: Actually, she'll tell you right off whether you ask her or not. That's jaded. 

Gabby: Yeah.

Dinosaur now. And we'll correct you on how to say it correct too. 

Nicole: Yes. Um, now one thing that I know a lot of. Other pks have struggled with, and I'm hoping our children never feel this pressure is the, the pressure to protect the image of the pastor. Did you ever feel like you had your behavior and everything reflected on your dad and that you, if you behave the wrong way, it was gonna affect him bad, like negatively?

Gabby: I mean, yeah. I, I feel like not only was it for my dad, but also I, I mean, my parents raised me in a way that like. If I behave badly, it was, I was disappointing them in a way. So it wasn't always like just for my dad, it was also my mom because [00:25:00] I think it more so reflected my mom being a passive saved wife.

Mm-hmm. My dad was the one being busy in the church and, but not, you know, the most point of century human beings and their mentality and so. I think our church really expected my mom to control us as kids when my dad's busy at church. And so if we were misbehaving, it reflected more badly on my mom. But my mom was the wor the, the more working part partner of the two because she was in residency and had working super long hours, so she wasn't home a lot.

Whereas my dad was the one who was more home for us. Right. And so he was more the. Present parent growing up. Um, and I don't think a lot of the church people realize that, but a lot of times they put that pressure on my mom instead whenever we behave badly and like would come and like kind of chastise her.

Um, so yeah, I, I [00:26:00] would say that sometimes I would feel guilty a lot whenever I did something wrong because I knew my mom would kind of give some of the backhanded talk about that. 

Nicole: Mm-hmm. Yeah, 

Jason: so I'm sure that put a lot of pressure on you though too. You, I mean, it's like, okay, if I don't keep my stuff together, mom's gonna get in trouble.

And 

Gabby: Yeah. I mean we always had like a specific, as I said, expectation when we came the church to, you know, talk and we can a certain way and we'd be a little bit more crazier at home. And even if we went over like our church people's house, you could be crazy. Then it's just. If we were at church, we had to be a little bit more quiet and dress a certain way and everything growing up.

It's definitely changed a lot since then, but definitely growing up had a lot about, 

Jason: yeah, well I, I know one thing like, so we're here, our, our kids [00:27:00] group is really growing like crazy. Um, and, but it's mostly church or kids that have never been to church for before in their life. 

Nicole: And their parents don't come.

Jason: And so one of the things I often tell my kids is, maybe I'm wrong for saying this, and you can correct me if I am, but I'll tell 'em, look, look, look you kid, to my kids, I'll be like, you guys have been coming your whole life, right? And so you can kind of set the example for other kids that are how they should be.

Okay? Like, I want you to have fun. I want you to be yourself. And then Gabby, you know me well enough to know I'm still crazy, Jason, but maybe with a little bit more of a dead. Dad vibe now, but still the same old working with kids and teens as I've always been. But I do have that expectation for my kids, like, hey, yeah, you can, you can kind of set, you know, behave, you can kind of set the standard, okay, what this supposed to look like in some ways.

Um, I don't, I don't know if that's right or wrong, but 

Gabby: yeah, that's. No, I, I, I understand what you're [00:28:00] saying and like I was given that growing up too, you know, like my dad every day would always tell us to be a leader and whenever we would have issues with friends and um, people around us, we always were told to be the bigger person and try and work things out.

And there's some truth to that. As I got older, I learned some of it, but a lot of times when you're growing up to have. That pressure on you, it's really hard to process, and it's a lot of, again, expectation that like you just feel inadequate if you can't meet it. Right. And I definitely think having that goal to meet was something that I could strive for, but whenever I didn't meet that standard, I didn't have the reassurance that I could get there one day.

Right. And so if you're gonna say things like that, I think that's perfectly fine. Just make sure when they don't think, [00:29:00] when they say it's okay, you're gonna get there one day. Just remember who you are and it's okay that we all make mistakes. 'cause you're human though, 

Nicole: right? 

Gabby: Um, 

Nicole: I think that's kind of one of the perks of us, of me being up in the sound booth on Sundays, because when.

Ben does start getting overwhelmed or whatever. He, and he starts to kind of lose his cool. 'cause he's kind of started going through his prepubescent mood, mood shift. Yeah. Um, and he, he is lost it a couple of times, but he is just gotten really angry and like, just, and so, um, you know, rather than try.

Trying to tell him, okay. No, you have to, you have to manage your emotions right now and go right back into the situation that frustrated you. I've tried being, like pulling him out of it first and not, not [00:30:00] forcefully isolating him or anything like that. I just like pick him up to the sound booth with me and let him cool down.

And then if he feels like he wants to go back and try again, he can. But, um, but then like while we're up there, I'll chat with him and be like, Hey, you know. Your emotions are justified, like your emotions are valid, but we need to figure out how we're gonna manage these. And it's, it's not because he's a pk, it's because we need to know how to manage our emotions in a way that aren't, isn't gonna get us in trouble, everybody.

So yeah, 

Jason: I think one thing that's helped our kids here has been the fact that one of the main families at our church, they are. Her dad was a longtime Nazarene pastor evangelist too. And so like, you know, my youngest Emra, she's not very social like she, she, you really have to get to know her before she comes out of her shell.

Like I always tell people, it took her two years to get to where she liked and tolerated me, let alone anybody [00:31:00] else. But I like one of their church ladies has been working on Emorys for like the last year, but she's not very forceful about it. She just kind of like, I'm here Emmy. Like, we'll get her a little presents.

Give her little hugs when she needs 'em, but she doesn't really force the, the interaction. But yeah. Was it Sunday? Finally, Emory like went outta her way to give her a hug before she left. And, and 

Nicole: then the, the wife of the, the late, um, evangelist, he, uh, or she. Has taken Ben under her wing and she just spoils that boy rotten.

Jason: Like he'll come home with like a five, $5, like, where'd you get the $5? Like Miss Libby gave it to me 

Nicole: and she just, she gives him hugs, tells him how precious he is, and it, it is speak like it's building up his confidence so much because all this family is doing is just speaking life and to our kids and I love it.

So yeah. 

Jason: I so that we're kinda, kinda get a little more [00:32:00] personal here, I guess, if this hasn't been personal enough. Um, so like, so we talked about how, like you didn't go to seminary, you know, or anything like that. You know, you, you didn't, you didn't go to school to become a, a preacher yourself. You went to school to learn science and medicine.

But, uh, how did, how did your own faith kind of grow within that fishbowl of the life that you had? Because here is everybody expecting you to have. This iron like faith where you can stand up and preach sermons like your dad to, I'm just trying to figure this out for me. So 

Gabby: yeah, no, it definitely, I feel like as a pastor kid, it can get, uh, pushed on you a lot or it kind of gets formed for you early on.

And for me, I feel like I thought. Growing up it was one swimming, and then as I got older, I started [00:33:00] realizing, you know, I started coming into the fishbowl a little bit and my brain realized, oh, I can, I can think for myself. And you kind of, when you kind of learn live in a past these family, you don't, you see a lot of the imperfections of the church.

Mm-hmm. Um, at the same time as seeing a lot of. How they try to keep the church in a perfection era. And when you see that clash, it really makes you start doubting a lot of things that the church does. Yeah. And um, so then, I don't know, so then makes you start questioning a lot of things and who are you supposed to go to because.

If you, I, for me, I wasn't super comfortable necessarily asking my dad because I didn't want him to feel like he was putting me in a situation that. His job was [00:34:00] compromising like my faith and things like that. And then asking certain people around the church would make them think, oh, like what's going on at home?

And the past family, things like that. Yeah. And eventually, like I can, I learned that I can build people in the church and fine, but when you first start growing up and realizing that, scary to know that like you have these questions like, who can you go to? And so all these other thought, you start questioning things.

You see all these imperfections in the church and you start trying to find answers of why are pastors treated a certain way, or you see all these, you hear and see all these sermons, and then you see a lot of pastors not doing those things that calm, and I'm not necessarily saying like, personally from my dad or things like that, but I, like, I, I interact with a lot of his, my coworkers and things like that.

Yeah. Um, and eventually you kind of just [00:35:00] have to learn to, I think for me, going to college helped me be able to separate for a little bit so that, yeah, I can grow on my own because I wasn't at my home church, I wasn't in my family. I could see and hear a ton of different beliefs and understand maybe why the world thinks the, the way that they deal outside of my family and then.

Then prove myself, okay, these, these are my beliefs. This is why we believe things as a church. Right? I understand why there are restrictions in the church. And then come to it. And then also understand that it's okay to question God and it's okay to have anger and it's okay to be mad at him sometimes.

That's right. Mm-hmm. And, um. Yeah. So I don't know if that answers your question. 

Jason: That was, that was a really good answer. That's 

Gabby: great. Yeah. 

Jason: Um, was there, was there a season, 

Nicole: like a specific time when you, in your 

Jason: life where you, you were kind of, I, I, for lack of a better phrase, were [00:36:00] you a little bit more rebellious against your upbringing?

Maybe more than 

Nicole: like, trying to push those boundaries of faith and, and tradition? Um. 

Gabby: Like I, I still like, I guess pushing against maybe my upbringing per se, I would say right before I went to college and then wanting to go to college, I just knew I ended up going to a college further away to have that separation 'cause I knew I needed it.

Right? I like, family means everything to me. Like I love my family. But I needed that time of money for my family to like grow as myself. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, I would just like hang out with friends. I had my own like schedule. I could plan out when I wanted to go to church, how I wanted to go to church, what activities I wanted to [00:37:00] do, how I wanted to be involved in church.

Because you know, being a pastor kid, you end up doing everything in the church, like Exactly. Yeah. You end up. Filling in where you don't want the filling, you end up being part of the worship team. You end up, um, doing the sound system, you end up cleaning the church. You end up doing like a million different things.

You end up with the pastor 

Jason: pressuring you to preach all the time. 

Gabby: Yeah. Yeah. So like going through my own churches in college, I could decide how involved or how least involved I wanted to be and things like that. So in that aspect, I guess my rebellious. Was, oh, I could wake up one day and if I'm too tired, I don't have to go to church.

Like, or if I wake up and I decide I don't like this church, I don't have to go back to it. And, um, I can try a different one. And so I did like a lot of church shopping in college. And then maybe we had like something called late night on Wednesday nights where it was just straight worship. And I, I enjoyed that a lot that I didn't look through the sermon because [00:38:00] all day in college, so Right.

Yeah. Things like that, that. I got to experience different aspects of church, I guess. Um, and then as I said, I could stay out late as I wanted. I could go, I, I, I could go drive around with my friends and eventually I bought my own car so I could drive anywhere I wanted and things like that. So, yeah, like college was more so, 

Jason: um, was there, was there a moment that maybe helped bring you closer to Jesus?

Per, like, just between you and him, where again, it wasn't because of your, your parents, it wasn't because of it was, uh, something that happened, or a moment where you just felt like, okay, I believe Jesus is real to me. I don't know if that, if that question makes sense or anything like that. 

Gabby: Yeah, I mean, it's always like different time.

Um, I guess the most, I can say the most recent one, or if you want me to say [00:39:00] one growing up. 

Jason: It's up to you. Like I'm not, I'm not fishing for any particular, I'm not looking for an ego boost or anything like that, if that's what you're wondering. 

Gabby: No, no, it's fine. I just wanna, because like it, like, it's like a PK talk, like I can talk about one maybe more related to being a PK that, well, 

Nicole: honestly, it really doesn't.

Matter either way, because sometimes a PK kind of does go their own way and then at sometime in adulthood they're like, you know, no, that made sense. So even, even an adult experience that it was powerful to you was perfect. Yeah. 

Gabby: Yeah. This one I can make it tied to go up there. So like for me, um, back in like December, I had to take around the boards for medical school.

It was just like our certification exam to be able, if you can pass it, be good enough to be a doctor and it's like a standardized exam that everyone [00:40:00] has to take universally United State. And, um, it was really hard. We had to like take a pre exam to basically from our school to basically say, oh, you can sit to take this exam.

And I kept getting like. Just above the score that is passing. But our school were like caught, like asked for a score that's like higher than passing for assistant. So getting a passing score on this. But I wasn't getting our school like required school or, and so like, it was just like frustrat. 'cause like I know if I went into select exam I might have, but my school was like.

I at risk of failing, if you know what I'm thinking. The point is they basically made me do like a lot of extra like practice and at the same time I was doing like rotations at the same time. So it was like going and working at the hospital for like eight hours a day, then having to come home and do like 200 questions, which takes like five hours.

And I was an Erie, so I was like separated from [00:41:00] my husband. Mm-hmm. And this was like going on for like three months and I was like. It's a really dark moment in my life because I was really doubting if I really should be a doctor. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But I was like, okay, well everything in my life has pointed me to this direction.

Like God has shut every other door in my life. Like, well, why is he making this so hard for me to pass this test or be able to take this step and pass it for me to be a doctor anyway, so I take the test and then you have to wait like four weeks to find out if you pass it and. I go back home finally, and it's, um, Mr.

Mrs. Lion's 50th anniversary. Mm-hmm. Who are like for everyone else, this amazing couple who used to babysit me actually in my church, um, who he's now a pastor of another church, but it was the 50th anniversary and a bunch of our church people were going to it, [00:42:00] and I of course had a go. And I, on the way there, I found out that my parents weren't going.

And I was like, what? I was like, so who am I supposed to go with? And they're like, well, they, you know, everyone's from the church. And I was like, so my, my husband's working, so like I'm basically going by myself and then gonna be with like all the church people. So like, my parents like ditch me and I go there and I'm like looking around and I sit at a table.

And for your guys' restaurant, it's with Terry and Debbie Kelly and then mm-hmm. Mooney, uh, at the time in Fall. Now I'm Debbie Dylan. Um, but, and, um, yeah, they got married. I didn't know that. Yes. And I, so I'm just with like my parents, like closest friends from church basically. Mm-hmm. At the table. And we were sitting there and this is the first time I had left.[00:43:00] 

So hard in like three months after going through all of that with my board. And it was because I was sitting with my church people and who were my parents friends and I wouldn't have known them or like had their guidance or anything if it wasn't for my dad being a pastor at that church. Um, and it was just such a good night for me after going through what I had gone through for the past three months.

Um, he just looks, say I didn't drop outta med school and I would pass my exam because obviously now a, a resident doctor. But, um, it was just such a good night for me and I like texted my dad and I was like, you know what I did tonight? I spent three hours laughing with your friends and I hadn't left so much in like three months.

That's awesome. Hope you get for ditching.

Jason: Yeah. The fact that he wasn't there, it probably allowed you to have time to actually talk. Yeah, 

Nicole: I was gonna say that. [00:44:00] Yeah. Yeah. Your dad would love your dad, but he would've totally dominated that conversation. 

Gabby: Yeah, no, it was so fun. We were like voting, voting people off the table. Depending on who got more hugs from Bev and everything.

And like if they're, if, if someone's misbehaving, we're like, oh, Terry voted off the table, or,

Nicole: that's awesome. I love that. Mm-hmm. Um, so what are some things about how your parents raised you that they did right? Like, you know, you, you absolutely love this, this way that they raised you. 

Gabby: Yeah, I mean, for sure. As I said, I mean, kind of going back, they always told me that I had to be the bigger person.

So like I think that taught me that no matter [00:45:00] what, even if the situation's unfair or someone did me wrong, you know, life's unfair and life's gonna suck. But you know, you can't just. Act like a little kid and cry and yell about it. You gotta just, you know, be professional per se and just approach the situation with respect and respect all the people around you.

And then the other thing is you have to have the support system in life. 'cause you can't do life alone, right? And so even if you're a pastor, you have to have a support system. So my dad. Like whenever my mom was sick, he had everyone in the church that like was there for him and they would like cook his food.

They came and babysat me and my brother, or they drove us around to like my basketball practices and [00:46:00] things like that. Like you, you can't do like the long God meant us to be in community with each other and so embrace that. So. Are the two like things I would say. Okay. 

Nicole: Awesome. Yeah, I, I 100% agree with both of those.

Um, what about some things that you wish had gone differently with how they raised you? Like Yeah, some 

Gabby: things you, 

Jason: and this is not to be critical them, this is just to help, you know, pastors, pastors, kids. Uh, maybe, maybe these are things we can avoid. 

Nicole: Let's just say I would love it if Jaden and EMS turned out a lot, like, 

Gabby: Aw, that's sweet.

Well, thank you. Um, I would say just, um, be wary of the expectations you put on, I think I mentioned this and just [00:47:00] if they, it's okay to have, you know, standards, but if they. Have too many standards. They're, you know, they're just gonna be really hard on themselves, and it's just something that they don't need to have on top of all the other pressures in life, it causes a lot more anxiety and a lot more, I don't wanna say self-esteem issues, because like, I, I honestly, like, I love who I am.

It just, it really makes you doubt some of your decisions. Sometimes it, it makes you wanna think that, am I doing this correctly before, instead of just making a decision, going on, going with it. Um, so just supporting them when you, when they feel like they're inadequate. And if life does, you know, knock them down, just be with them.

And if they mess up, [00:48:00] don't. Let them be able to come to you. Don't yell at them and say that they did everything wrong. Just let them cry and say, mom, I messed up. Dad. Please forgive me. And say, and be like, yeah, you did, but this, we're gonna get out of it. You know? So I feel like I was always afraid to tell my parents things if I did something wrong.

And they should be the people that you should be able to go to first. Yeah. 

Jason: That's, that's, that's good stuff. 

Nicole: Yeah. 

Jason: Um, I feel like that, let's just skip to this last question 'cause I feel like she just answered that lot. Yeah. Um, this last question for you, and it is kind of more of a, uh, uh, what word of encouragement would you give for current pastors, kids trying to navigate this life?

Like maybe they're a teenager or maybe they're hitting that early college phase of, you know, what advice would you give them? 

Gabby: Yeah. [00:49:00] Um, I would say be yourself and enjoy life. You don't have to be perfect and ignore what everyone else has to say about you because your opinion matters the most about who you are.

Jason: That's really good. Yeah. Awesome. 

Gabby: Yeah. 

Jason: Well, thank you Gabby, for, for doing this for us. We appreciate it so much. I know there was a lot of. Strange questions in there, that means you have to think, 

Gabby: uh, sorry for making me 

Jason: have to think. Uh, but, but, you know, but it is, you know, we're all about sharing real ups and downs and, uh, also there, there's a lot of sacred things that happened in between those moments.

Um, 

Nicole: yeah. And all I know is that everything you shared is gonna be like, super valuable for, you know, pastors and, and their kids, and. 

Jason: Really lay people too. Lay 

Nicole: people too, because let's face it, lay people put a lot of pressure on them. Pastor's [00:50:00] kids too. And uh, and really, like, if we don't, if we don't want pastor's kids leaving the church, we need, we need to be thinking about how we're, we're treating them now, 

Jason: but, 

Nicole: well, thank you so 

Jason: much.

Any final thoughts for us here?

Nicole: Um, I don't think so. 

Jason: All right.

Nicole: Well, if this episode hit close to home, we'd love to, uh, we'd love to, for you to share it with a pastor or a preacher's kid. You know, let's rewrite the narrative that PKS have to be either perfect or. Broken. 

Jason: Yeah. And if you're a pastor's kid and you're listening to this episode and you want to comment on something that Gabby shared or you wanna share your story with us, we would love, feel free to reach out or leave, leave some comments in the comment [00:51:00] section on our Facebook page.

We'd love to hear your story. And, and, uh, I'm sure our listeners would love to hear your story as well. Yes. Um, follow, do us a favor, follow us on your favorite hack podcast platform and leave us a review that really helps this show get noticed and reach more people. And tag us at at table for two podcasts if this one spoke to you.

Nicole: But we'll be back next week with another honest and slightly unfiltered episode. Until then, 

Jason: grace and Peace Friends. 

Theme Song: Through storms and swallow on noise, church keys and hand copy mugs are light held together by grace. And a few hugs they said she submits. We said we both do. It's not about ladders since me.

You serving the kingdom in eighth one and genes laugh lines and cows tan and holy routine. Table for two. There's room for [00:52:00] you.