The Night Before Sunday: Ministry Anxiety and Family Chaos

What really happens in a pastor's house the night before church? Spoiler alert: it's not always peaceful prayer and glowing halos.

In this episode, Jason and Nicole pull back the curtain on what Saturday nights and Sunday mornings look like when you're raising kids, leading a church, and still trying to find your sermon notes. From spiritual warfare to missing shoes, marriage tension to last-minute printer failures--this is the unfiltered reality of ministry life.

You'll hear laughter, vulnerability, and whole lot of grace as we talk about:

• Sermon anxiety and sleepless Saturday nights
• Why Sunday mornings are spiritual battle zones
• How to lead while feeling unprepared
• The pressure to perform vs the call to be present
• Finding peace in the chaos

If you've ever cried in the church parking lot, changed a diaper in your Sunday best, or wrestled with doubt on the way to preach--you're not alone. This one's for every ministry family trying to keep it together (and for everyone who thinks we've got it all figured out).

Pull up a chair--we saved you a seat at the table.

Thanks for pulling up a chair at Table for Two. If you enjoyed today's conversation, we'd love for you to join us on Facebook! It is where we share behind-the-scenes updates, chat with listeners, and keep the conversation going throughout the week. We'd love to see you there.

Transcript

Ep12 The Night Before Sunday

Jason: [00:00:00] Welcome to Table for Two, where we're just a two pastors trying to keep enough caffeine in this, the kids clothed and the Sunday sermons from turning into therapy sessions. 

Nicole: Now, this is a podcast where ministry meets real life, where grace is stronger than guilt, and sometimes your calling gets interrupted by a toddler meltdown or printer jam.

Oh my word. Those printer jams. Yes. 

Jason (2): I'm Jason. 

Nicole: And I'm Nicole. And today we're talking about the sacred chaos. Of every pastor's favorite time of the week, Saturday night, leading into Sunday morning. 

Jason (2): Yes. You know that magical window of time when Satan seems to hold a staff meeting in your living room, your kid's shoe disappears into the abyss.

And your sermon outline suddenly feels like the first draft of Leviticus. Amen. You, you second guess everything. You've, you've thought you were gonna say 

Nicole: Yes. 

Jason (2): This, this table for two, for two 

Theme Song: for storms and swallowed on noise. Church and hand copy and mugs are light held [00:01:00] together by grace. And a few hugs they said she submits.

We said we both do. It's not about ladder since me, you serving the kingdom lock lines and. Tense and holy routines at this table for two. There's room for you. Pull up. Butcher will tell the truth from love and faith with the side of, 

Nicole: so darling, let's start with something fun. Let's start with our question.

What is the weirdest or most ridiculous thing that's ever happened to you on a Sunday morning? Whether that's before church, during church, after church, I don't care, but Sunday morning. 

Jason (2): Oh, I have several of those stories, like the time I almost caught myself on fire. The time I almost fell off the sermon, off the platform while I was preaching.

But my, perhaps the one that sticks with me the most is one time we were driving. To one of our churches. And it was, you know, it was like a five, 10 minute drive. It wasn't very far, five 

Nicole: minutes. 

Jason (2): [00:02:00] Um, but I, I don't know what happened, but all of a sudden my back seized up. 

Nicole: You sneezed. That's what happened.

Yes. I 

Jason (2): sneezed the wrong way, you know, and I, it was a dad sneeze, you know, where it seems like your dad's expelling all the demons from his body when he sneezes. That's it. And I sneezed and my entire back seized up 

Nicole: and he's driving. Keep this of mine. 

Jason (2): Yeah. So I pull the car over. And I am like, okay, I need to stretch my back a minute.

But the problem is I can't stand up. And so I have to like grab the top of our car, which was like a Chevy Trailblazer, grab the top of our car and pull myself out to a standing position. And I told Nicole, just take the driver's seat, take over as I shimmied myself around the car to the passenger. And I end up preaching from sitting on a stool, which if you watch me preach, I don't stand still.

Um, I've been accused of giving people motion sickness from how much I go back and forth, but that sermon I did not move around a lot. No. Because I couldn't, like I physically, I was doing good to just be standing Yeah. At, up at the front that week. So that's my story. It's not that that ridiculous, but [00:03:00] it is definitely different.

Yeah. 

Nicole: That was, that was definitely an event. Mine, I would have to say was when I was guest speaking at Hawthorne in Pennsylvania, I, I brought my daughter, I brought Jaden, our oldest, and 

Jason (2): you should probably preface how old she is before you tell the story. Yeah. 

Nicole: She was about four at the time. Four or five.

I think she was four. And we. We get there and now she's wearing this really cute little floofy dress and everything and I made sure that she put shorts on underneath it. 'cause this is a little girl that will not sit like a lady. She's thir, uh, 12 now. She just turned 12. She still doesn't sit like a lady.

She's got her feet sprawled all over the place. And, um, so I, I made sure she was wearing shorts underneath well. Unbeknownst to me on the way there, she had [00:04:00] taken her shorts off

and she's sitting front row while I'm preaching, and about halfway through my sermon, she decides she wants to get up and start dancing, and she forget she's not wearing those shorts underneath. She's just wearing her underwear and she lifts her skirt above her head. And I ended up having to put pause on my sermon and be like, honey, you need to sit down.

Because on top of that, she was right in front of the live feed camp. Oh my 

Jason (2): goodness. So not only did the congregation get the e fool, but the entire internet world did as well. 

Nicole: Well, I don't, I don't know that they actually got it. I think, I think it was just her skirt blocked the camera. Fortunately. 

Jason (2): How did the congregation react?

Because they didn't know you. Oh, they were 

Nicole: dying. Oh, they were dying. I, I was. I was very fortunate. They thought, they thought she was adorable. But that helps. Definitely some, there was definitely some, yeah. The things that 

Jason (2): kids can get away with in [00:05:00] service that adults cannot. Um, not that we encourage that type of behavior in church.

No. Well, now with all the, the kidding and, and fun stuff aside here, we're gonna switch gears now a little bit and start talking about what it's like in the pastor's house on Saturday night, heading into Sunday morning. And it's, it's a different world. Um, the pressure's a little bit different. 

Nicole: That's insane.

Jason (2): Yeah. So you're kind of torn because you wanna rest. Right. You know, you, your body needs rest and your mind needs rest to be able to get up in the morning 

Nicole: because you've been spending all week pondering the sermon. At the very least. 

Jason (2): Yes. And now it's time to put it into practice. Um. It's nerve wracking.

Mm-hmm. 

Jason (2): It's a lot. It's just, it's really no matter how well prepared you are heading into Sunday morning, you are still second guessing and praying through everything because you are trying to find the de [00:06:00] delicate balance between speaking the truth, but in a way filled with grace. Right? Yeah. You, you, you don't wanna.

Use the board, the Bible, like a sword and lop off body parts. You want to use it like a scalpel. Mm-hmm. Right. And allow the Holy Spirit to do the healing work that the Holy Spirit does. Yeah. So, 

Nicole: and, and keep in mind like this, anxiety is especially intense if you've dealt with churches and congregations that have reacted poorly to a sermon in the past.

Um, I know like for at least me. Um, every time I end up preaching, I ha I kind of have a borderline panic attack the night before because I'm afraid of saying something in a way that somebody's going to twist and take wrong. Um, because e even though I've not tried to hurt someone, and even though like I, I'm just [00:07:00] addressing what I feel like God's called me to address, sometimes people will take that personally.

Mm-hmm. They'll take the conviction as a personal attack as it. Instead of the conviction of the Holy Spirit. And, and we lost a position at a previous church because of that. 

Yeah. 

Nicole: And so now whenever I get behind the pulpit, I am so afraid Yeah. That somebody's gonna take something I say as something as wrong and we'll end up in another situation.

Jason (2): Yeah. And similar, you know, while mine's not been to the extreme of, of Nicole's, uh, I, I have had a someone tell me that. Well, you looked right at me when you said that, and it's like, okay, I may have looked at you, but it was not like an intentional, I'm looking at you trying to pour conviction on you when I say this.

Yeah. Uh, 

Nicole: I, I know for me, when I look at people in the eye, yes, it's because I see them as a person that I can, that I, I can look to as an affirmation that they understand it or they're just a [00:08:00] comforting presence in my life. I, I don't look at people that. I might know or dealing with something that might be hitting, being hit a little close to home.

Yeah. I, I try to avoid that unless that person is just one of those people that are just so normally my rock. I'm not trying, I'm not trying to step on your toes, I'm just looking to you for support. Yeah. And I have a few people in the congregation like 

Jason (2): that. Yeah. Yeah. And every pastor's different in how they prepare it too.

Like for me, again, I'm the lead pastor and Nicole's my associate, so I. I plan my sermons out a year in advance. And when I say plan 'em, I pray over it. Right? Yeah. There's a process to putting the calendar together. A lot of prayer thought goes into it. Uh, Nicole knows when she's preaching, but she doesn't necessarily plan ahead what she's preaching.

Well, it's not so much that I 

Nicole: don't plan ahead, it's that I have so many ideas. I write 'em down, but I don't know which one I'm going to be preaching next. Yes. And 

Jason (2): so it's, it's a little different for her. And so, but for me, I know [00:09:00] like, so for instance, I'm preaching a series right now called Live by Neighbor.

Based on Leviticus 19, and so much of it is hitting close to what's going on in our world at the moment. 

Nicole: But he's had this series planned since, like halfway through last year. 

Jason (2): Yeah. And it's been on my sermon list to be put on the calendar for like two years. 

Nicole: Yeah. 

Jason (2): So it's not like I just thought this up on a whim, but again, those, those type sermons, as pastors we, when we know it's gonna really rock the boat, at least for me.

Other pictures might be different. I'm not excited about those sermons. 

Oh, no, 

Jason (2): I, because I know how people are gonna respond, but I have to be obedient for the Holy Spirit saying. And so a lot of those times, those sermons, it makes it hard to sleep. And so, and it makes it hard to prepare because you're trying to prepare your heart and mind.

But at the same time too, you know, hey, they're gonna, they're gonna make this assumption about me. That's not gonna entirely be true. Where I'm just [00:10:00] trying to communicate what the spirit's led me to say. Yeah. Um, now when I say this, what the spirit's led us to say, I'm not, I I, it's not like we just sit in a room with, you know, in the dark with candles lit, waiting for the hear the voice of God.

It's, it's just, we're not 

Nicole: doing the seance or anything like that. No. It's just the, 

Jason (2): it's just a steady pressure of, you know, this is the right thing. Uh, but just because it's the right thing doesn't mean it's gonna be easy. Yeah. Um. 

Nicole: And, and the thing is too is it's this constant wrestling of, okay, is this me or is this a spirit?

Because again, we're, we are constantly seeking God. And so because we're constantly seeking God, we have this desire to see God work in the church. And so we might have the same ideas as what God's wanting to do in the church, but maybe we're trying to rush things a little bit. And so there's this constant pressure and constant fear that.

Maybe this, maybe I'm taking this too [00:11:00] quickly, or maybe I'm taking this or saying this a little harder than I should, because maybe God's wanting to be a little bit more gentle here. And so this constant pressure of, am I saying what God's wanting me to say or am I saying what I know might be God's will in the long run?

But. I'm saying it a little harder Yeah. Than it needs to be said down. Yeah. And again, the sword versus the scalpel. Yeah. 

Jason (2): And you're trying to do your best to take as much of you out of as possible. Yes. And the only time, at least me, when I highlight myself, it's either to give a, an example that's relatable to the people that are listening.

You know, this is what it looks like in the real world. Or this is what it looks like when you mess up and what God wanted, weirdly wants from you. Uh. It that helps though it, one, it lets people know that we're human too and struggle with it, but also this is, or, or it also lets 'em know, okay, yes, I'm human too, but this, this is how God helped me do this.

Yeah. Um, again, it is not always A plus B equals C either. [00:12:00] I don't know how to explain that other than yes, when we all ask, we pin of our sins and turn from our wicked ways and follow Jesus, we're all saved that that's A plus B equal C. But when it comes to how God deals with us and how God goes about changing and transforming us into that image of himself, that's what is unique to each person.

Yeah. As they, as they go through that journey. Um, now, again, and you really never stop writing your sermon. 

No. 

Jason (2): Like even after the sermon is over, the first thing I always say to Nicole is, did I make sense? Um, maybe I 

Nicole: should have reworded this or, um, 

Jason (2): and then I always go back and re-listen to it myself again, just to make sure, because I go up with a manuscript and, and I don't read it word from word from the pulpit.

Um, but I have it up there. One, because there's some sections where wording is important. Mm-hmm. But the times when I go away from the script, from the, the, the manuscript, uh, [00:13:00] that's when I have to pay attention to how I worded things or the tone I, I, I used. Because again, sometimes tone is everything. 

Nicole: Oh yeah.

Jason (2): Um, and 

Nicole: so sometimes you're, again, it's not wanting to rewrite the line. It's wanting to re restate it in a softer tone or maybe a little bit more firm because you found out that, well, maybe somebody wasn't really listening and they needed to actually Yeah. And 

Jason (2): you're also always worried that, you know, what was it?

The Bible tells us that. That the teachers are gonna be judged on a stricter standard than everybody else. Oh yeah. And it's not because we have, God has a different standard for us, but we are, we are the ones setting the examples. 

Nicole: We're the ones that are digging into scripture daily 

Jason (2): and, and telling people This is how God wants you to live.

Yeah. And so our influence is important in that. And so that weighs heavy on me. Um, and so I, again, the other reason I go back and listen is, okay, did I say anything heretical or, okay, maybe I could have said something in a way that was a little more clear. And that's the beauty of social media. If I do say something like that, oh, you're gonna 

Nicole: get called out.[00:14:00] 

Jason (2): Well, not only that, but also I can go back through social media and kind of address something. Mm-hmm. Um, actually for a long time I would do an extra, I, I don't do much anymore, but I would do an extra couple videos a week called Lingering or Leftovers and kind of go back to some points. Well, maybe I didn't have as much time to, to focus on that point 'cause we only have 20 to 30 minutes.

Yeah, to get our sermon in. Um, I'm usually closer to 35 by time you add the closing. 

Nicole: Hey, I love hearing you speak, so I don't care. 

Jason (2): But, um, but so your brain doesn't stop writing the sermon ever, even after you've preached. Now there are some sermons that when you get done preaching it, it feels like someone has taken a, a 25 pound bag of bricks off your shoulder.

Ugh. And you just feel this instant relief after the message is gone 

Nicole: and the desire to actually get the rest. Because the burden's no longer on you. Yeah. Yeah. 

Jason (2): Um, and now, now when it comes to spiritual preparation and [00:15:00] parental exhaustion, like trying to balance between being a parent and being the pastor, that, that's, that's a challenge because Friday nights is a busy night for families, and Saturday nights have been busy nights for families.

Uh, now really the only sport that our kids play is Ben's getting ready to start football here. 

Nicole: Well, and Emmy's gonna be in cheer 

Jason (2): and Emmy's doing, yeah, emerse is doing cheer this year, and so that mean sat, you know, Monday night, Tuesday night, and Thursday night is gonna be football practice. So we've gotta figure, we gotta juggle that.

Mm-hmm. On top of the other things we've got going, which means we have to get creative in our prep time. So a lot of times for me, a lot of times I don't get really to sit down. If I, if I don't finish, my, my goal is always to be done with a sermon by Thursday. It's, it's only happened like three times in my entire ministry career.

Yeah. And I've been preaching since I was 16 years old, so it's been over 20 years of preaching. And I've been in, in a pastoral role since 2014, so [00:16:00] that's 11 years ago. Um, now I'm not, I've only been a lead pastor since 2018, so in that time span, it's only happened three times where I've been done on Thursday.

So a lot of what ends up happening is I'm gonna be present with my family and present for any other church events that are happening on Saturday too. So sometimes my sermon prep doesn't even really get into the meat of things until about eight or nine o'clock on Saturday. That's once the kids are winding down and dinner's been had.

Um, and I head down to the office. So, so there's some times where, you know, we talk about, you know, rewriting the sermon at 2:00 AM That's not that I'm rewriting the sermon at 2:00 AM I'm, I'm finishing the sermon at 2:00 AM 

Nicole: Well, you've written it in your head like five times, so 

Jason (2): Yes, yes. But, but usually I've gone over the idea enough by that point.

Nicole: Um, but long story short, we're, we tend to be pretty darn exhausted heading into Sunday morning. And honestly, that's kind of. I feel like Sunday mornings, [00:17:00] right before church starts, that's when the devil really attacks because we are, again, we're dead tired and we have this burden to, to share the truth of the gospel and, and then, you know, all of a sudden everything just goes.

To chaos. Um, this, this week, for example, my son Ben would not wake up. 

Mm-hmm. 

Nicole: He, I, I had to tell him four times and then I ended up having to leave to go pick up kids in the church van 'cause I'm running the van. And, and this kid, he was still, he was still there. When I got back from the church van and I had ha, I had recruited Jayden to wake him up for me, but she had spent the entire time I was gone trying to wake him up.

Jason (2): Yeah. 

Nicole: And, 

Jason (2): and so, and I'm busy trying to get everything ready for Sunday morning at that point. Yeah. By, by nine, by nine o'clock. I'm usually [00:18:00] downstairs, which we live on campus for the churches, but I'm usually downstairs in the office. Printing things out down in the Sunday or downstairs, the field football, getting the Sunday school doors unlocked 

Nicole: or up in the sound booth, getting the sound equipment turned on and, and hymns plugged into the, to easy worship.

Jason (2): Yes. So it's, you know, it's not like, so trying to juggle that and, and then get your kids up, make sure they have breakfast, which for, for me, I don't eat breakfast on a Sunday morning, so it's, it's not a first thought for me, so I have to stop and remind myself, okay, your kids need to eat. 

Yeah. 

Jason (2): Ask if, wanna make sure they have something, even if it's something quick, you know, uh, for those of your parents wondering, wondering if you're a bad parent for giving your kid a pop tart or the sausage frozen sausage biscuits.

No, your kid's got food. Be don't beat yourself up. You got your kids' food. Yeah. Um, uh, so you, you're exhausted, right? But before Sunday morning even hits usually, [00:19:00] um, now Sunday morning is the fun part. That's when everybody starts getting here and you get to see all the people you've been praying for all week and you spend time interacting with them and Yeah, 

Nicole: because I, I love our church.

Same, I love our congregation. And, and honestly like, like some of 'em especially are just like so encouraging. It's like I need them, I like, I, I feel like a part of me is missing when they're not. There on a Sunday morning. 'cause I didn't get, I didn't get my, my encouraging word from them that they always have.

Yes. 

Nicole: But yeah. 

Jason (2): Now one of the things that we've learned, because Sunday mornings because you're tired as a couple, it's really easy to get snippety with each other. 

Mm-hmm. 

Jason (2): Especially when you're trying to get things set up together. Right. And. And so [00:20:00] 

Nicole: I am not good about that, and I, I get so snippy 

Jason (2): and trying to get the kids ready on top of it too.

Right. And then, you know, you're trying to get stuff ready and then your kids are fighting downstairs like a couple weeks ago. So I was running behind, so I asked the, my kids to help me fold the bulletins. I print the church bulletins out, and then I usually have to fold 'em. And usually I, I, my goal is to do it the night before, or at least do it in the morning before everybody gets really busy.

But that, that morning I couldn't do it. And so I, I took him down to my younger two. And then there was another young man who comes to church here regularly. Mm-hmm. And I gave him the bulletin bulletins to fold up and, well, next thing you know, I think nothing of it, it's, it's gonna be a quick, easy job.

And then next thing I know, my daughter's coming up the stairs saying, 

Nicole: Ben's yelling at everybody. Oh. I thought it was, um, the other young man that came up the stairs. Oh. Somebody 

Jason (2): came up the stairs and said, binge yelling at everybody, you know, so. I'm irritated now because I have, I'm in the middle of trying to get everything done.

Well, 

Nicole: [00:21:00] that was the week that Jayden and I were leading worship too. So you were up in the sound booth trying to man that and then you had to go and play referee. Yes. And 

Jason (2): so I went down and I had a very stern talking with my son about, listen, stop fighting with everybody. 

Mm-hmm. 

Jason (2): And just fold the bulletins.

Yeah. 

Jason (2): Just get it done. Like there's nothing even here to fight about. Um, 

Nicole: but to be fair. Again, another Saturday evening issue is my kids don't want to go to sleep and he had not gone to sleep. No matter how many times I told him, every time I walked past his room, he was up and playing. And I, I, I would tell him, you know, it's time for bed.

Turn his lights off. Like I would turn his lights off and everything. And then next thing I know I'd be walking past again and he's got his lights on and he's goofing off in his room. And I was like, finally told him that if he was, uh, gonna be. If he was, if he was grouchy at all the next day, because he hadn't, he wasn't sleeping.

If he was grouchy at all, he was [00:22:00] gonna lose his TV time. Yeah. 

Jason (2): And that's, that's a difference between a, a pastoral household and a lot of households because. For pastors, it's not an option whether or not we're going to church the next morning. 

Yeah, 

Jason (2): it's not. And, and, and, and in all fairness, it's not an option whether our kids are going the next morning or not either.

Uh, 

Nicole: yeah. 

Jason (2): You know, their friends, they, it's to them Friday and Saturday's the weekend, some days another day off where they get to relax and, and do the things that they do. And church is optional. Yeah. But for our family, it's not an option. It's something, something that Nicole and I are called to do and be a part of.

Like, kids aren't called to be apart, but because their parents are, they, they have to be there. 

Nicole: Yeah. At least so we can referee if we need to. Yes. 

Jason (2): Because yes. Um, 

Nicole: yeah, and, 

Jason (2): and, and so even that though, you know, my kids sometimes will come into church tired because they're like other kids. They're, they're wanting to stay up like their friends do.

Their friends are all staying up, play playing video games and things on their phone. You know, they all play [00:23:00] these games online together all the time, and they wanna stay up and play together. Mm-hmm. Uh, so that balance of trying to let your kids be kids the same time too, helping them understand that there are actions and consequences to decision making.

Mm-hmm. And Saturday night's one of those for, for our kids. Um, uh, again, we were talking about, you know, but, but one of the biggest thing that's important is having grace for each other, uh, in those moments, understanding that they're tired and you're tired. Yeah. So yes, we might get snippety with each other, but after the service is over, usually there's, we let it go.

The weight's gone. The weight's gone, and we let it go. We under, we understand the pressure the other one's feeling, no matter who's preaching that week or who's doing what. Uh, so, so learning to just give the other one grace. Yeah. And, and as you navigate that and learning to give our kids grace. Yeah.

'cause again, they're kids too. And. 

Nicole: Well, and, and I think [00:24:00] this is one thing that like we just practice in general for parenting is, you know, we, when we do have to give our kids a consequence for something that they've, they've done or not done, we, we communicate with them as to for why and, and you know, if.

If they're losing out on TV time, it's because the TV was the reason why they, they stayed up all night or, or they might be losing out on phone time because their phone was the distraction or, or, um, you know, so it's the're communicating with 'em. And, but after church especially, like, we're like, okay. Um, for example, this past week, I, I told Ben, I was like, Hey.

If you are not gonna go to sleep at a reasonable time on Saturday night because you're the TV's in your room, I'm gonna be taking that power cord for a while and [00:25:00] you're not gonna be getting that TV for a while until you start making a wise decision about going to bed on it at a decent time. 

Jason (2): Yeah. So since it's learning to have consequences for actions as well and, and um, 

Nicole: but also communicating what the consequence will be before having to dish it out.

Jason (2): Yes. Now one of the, the things pastors deal with too on Sunday mornings is there's a pressure between performing and presence. 

Mm-hmm. 

Jason (2): Right? We, you want it, you want the service to go smoothly and operate smoothly. And most of the time there's always something that goes wrong. If you've ever tried to plan a wedding ceremony right now, it's not, this isn't as big as that every week.

But you know, if you've planned a wedding that something always goes wrong in the planning process. Yeah. Or there's some type of flaw that, that, that does not follow execution from the plan to the 

Nicole: actually, um, this is something that [00:26:00] if you've been in theater or in, in, um, musical performances ever, the, the general rule of thumb is that if the rehearsal goes flawlessly, something goes epically wrong during the performance.

And, and it's kind of that way in the sermon, whereas everything is going very smoothly prior to the service. Something's gonna go wrong during the service, something's gonna go wrong during the service. Yes. But if the soundboard is being finicky or if we're, again, if the kids are fighting or. Or, um, you get a, you get a nasty message beforehand.

More likely than not, it's gonna be a pretty good service. Yes. But it's, it's the rule of the rehearsal, I guess. Yeah. 

Jason (2): Yeah. And so. Learning to just roll with it. Yes. Yes. Just understand things are not gonna go to a plan. You're gonna have a YouTube [00:27:00] video loaded up for somebody to sing and it's not gonna work, right?

Mm-hmm. Or someone's got a cd, CD that they wanna play and sing along with, 

Nicole: and then you don't have the person that knows how to run the CD player. 

Jason (2): Yeah. Which, again, those are moments where you're like, okay, I gotta learn how to do this. And so you go and you learn how to do it, but there are moments where that happens and you have to come up with something on the fly.

Or maybe someone is scheduled to sing the, the pre the special that week, and they're not there. Well, what do you do when you look at your music worship later, like I do, Dave, and say, Hey, let's just sing something. 

Nicole: Add another worship song. Let's just 

Jason (2): add another worship song. Or you just forego it. Um, now one, one thing that helps me is I, I call it the, the service script.

It's an order of service, but I have some things written in there to kind of help with the flow. But again, understanding that that's not. Even though I caught the service script, it's not the script script, right? It's like you're not bound to this. No. There are gonna be moments where the Holy Spirit changes direction.

Like I remember a couple Sundays back, I had a real funny introduction planned. I don't even remember what Sunday it is or what it [00:28:00] was about, but as soon as everybody started gathering in and I heard that, you know that that first hymn that's played to let everybody know, get your seats and we're getting ready to start the spirit just hit me and said, you're not doing that today.

Um, and. I said something different. It set an entirely different tone. Mm-hmm. But that wasn't me. That was the Holy Spirit checking me. Um, and just learning to pay attention to the people and how, and pay, and most importantly, the Holy Spirit and how the Holy Spirit's, and not only interacting with you, but the people in the room.

Uh. Because what, ultimately, what's more important we're, we're not gather together on Sunday mornings to worship ourselves or to make ourselves look good or to put on some type of performance. This isn't, the church is not that kind of place. Church is not a performance, it's not an act of theater. It's not, it's about being faithful and worshiping God and paying attention to his Holy Spirit.

Yeah. 

Jason (2): Um. [00:29:00] Now because of that though, because we as pastors spend so much time planning the service out, praying over it. I mean, I mean, as someone that loves the game of football, right? One, one of my favorite heroes growing up was P Manning. And what I loved about Peyton Manning was he would start preparing for the next game Sunday night.

And so he would prepare all week mm-hmm. For that next game on the next Sunday. That's, that's the pastoral life, right? You finish one Sunday up and you're already planning and working on the next one. Um, and so a while of your time and, and, and spent in the trying to get in the presence of the Holy Spirit.

Like my, my sermon prep, even the little bit I do during the week is tied into my morning devotions a little bit. Um, it's not necessarily I'm, I'm using my sermon for my devotions. I'm reading other things, but even then my sermon's in the back of my mind. 

Nicole: Mm-hmm. 

Jason (2): And I'm praying [00:30:00] over it, try and prepare my heart.

Nicole: And what I love though is during the devotion time, especially if the sermon's already in the back of your mind, so like the, the devotion time sometimes ends up changing the direction that you were gonna take that passage in the first place because. You, you realize that there's, there's more to it than what you initially had read.

Jason (2): Yeah. 

Nicole: But, but yeah, I mean, like, it, it gets, it gets trying during, especially during prep weeks for me, because whereas, you know, every other, every other week when I'm able to, you know, just focus on. On, you know, Sunday school and maybe leading worship or maybe doing a special or whatever. I, you know, during, during, um, sermon prep weeks, I'm like, the, the devotion time that I had initially had set aside is having to be [00:31:00] re-designated.

'cause I'm not, I don't have that already planned in my week. So it creates an additional complication. And so those weeks I do feel like I am so. Like I am, I'm so dehydrated spiritually, I guess because it, it's all, it's all about the sermon instead of the, you know, my own spiritual Yeah. Nurture nourishment, I guess.

Jason (2): Yeah. So even, even if you're a pastor, that's, and you, what you just heard there though, is a difference between an associate and the lead pastor. A lead pastor. You, you develop a rhythm mm-hmm. To how you do things. Even though it doesn't always go according to plan, but you develop a bit of a rhythm and, and, and you, you kinda get used to that a little bit, but as an associate right, that's when you preach, it's a whole nother burden on top of 

Nicole: your normal.

Yeah. 

Jason (2): Yeah. It's, it's a, so you're trying to fit it into a schedule that's already jam packed with other things. [00:32:00] Um, and so again, by time we get to Sunday really. Uh, the way I like to think of it is when I get up there to preach, I think of a t-shirt that's been filled up with water, right. And during that service, what the Holy Spirit is doing is taking that t-shirt and he's ringing it dry, right?

And so, um, that's what it feels like for me anyway. Like I'm being rung dry. Oh yeah. And the Holy Spirit is squeezing every last drop of water that he has poured into me during the wake in that. Hour and 15 minutes of our service on that Sunday. Uh, so bat time, but so the time the service is over, I'll be honest, there's a lot, again, I get a lot from being and interacting with people during the service, you know, but there's a lot of Sundays where when you get done, you're just tired 

Nicole: and you just want go to bed.

Jason (2): Yeah. And so many times too, you're tired and you're discouraged. Like I made what I just said made absolutely no [00:33:00] sense. I feel like every time, like there's a voice in my, the back of my head, if, if you've ever watched the movie Billy Madison, right? You remember the big long speech Billy gives trying to explain the book and when he's done with it, the guy that's, you know, controlling the contest goes, 

Nicole: everyone is now dumber for having heard.

Jason (2): That's that little voice in the back of my head says that every time. Uh, well now one of the things I've had to learn to do though is. I do a journal now, almost every Sunday, where I go back and look at the good things that God did during the service. Mm-hmm. Or even the week leading up to that service to remind me, okay, God.

And so it, it kind of, it kind of is God's way of blowing the fire off the, the, the fiery darts of the enemy when they start hurling my way because it's like, okay, I can look back and I can see, okay, this is what God did. 

Yeah. 

Jason (2): Um, he, now he, I, and I gotta be a part of this. It's not he that he needed me, but I got, I was blessed with the opportunity to be a part of that.

Nicole: Yeah. [00:34:00] 

Jason (2): Um, 

Nicole: but, um, I, I know personally, and, and I know you even shared a little bit with the, of this is the fact that like, after the sermon, we're picking it apart. We're trying to figure out what we did right, what we did wrong. And more often than not, we're focusing on the negative because it's us. But, um, what are some things that help you kind of redirect that line of thought?

Like what are some, what are some ways that you have, um, taken your focus off of the negative things that had happened? O other than just writing, writing positive things down, what's like the immediate thing? Um. 

Jason (2): Well one too is kinda distancing myself from the moment, like saying, okay, remind myself, okay, right now you're really tired.

Mm-hmm. You are either running on three hours of sleep or no sleep. You've not had anything to eat. Right? You're kinda like Elijah, [00:35:00] after the prophets of bail. What most people don't realize after the prophets of bail, Elijah Eja has a really big spiritual crisis, right? Mm-hmm. So, you know, you know, the, all of Israels worshiping the one true God now, but all of a sudden that, that, that, you know, but they, and they've killed off the prophets of Baal.

Like they've slaughtered them all until, and then Queen Jezebel finds out. 

Nicole: And she's unique. She's livid 

Jason (2): and she's wanting to kill Elijah. So what Elijah does is he runs off into the mountain, scared to death, 

Nicole: and he's like, nobody loves me and, and everybody's wanting me dead and all this stuff, and what, 

Jason (2): what 

Nicole: happens?

And 

Jason (2): what got essentially let's Elijah do is he lets Elijah take a nap and then he gives him a snack. And that's, that's the gist of the story. And so reminding myself of that is okay. Not only is this the enemy sneaking in, but I'm also because I'm tired, I'm hungry, and I'm thirsty. Most likely I'm gonna be focused on that negative.

So I need to allow myself [00:36:00] some breathing room before I go into dissecting what happened. Now, am I good about that every time? No, but I'll also tell you what's really helpful too, is um, I stand at the back of the sanctuary when after the service is over. And having people stop it and, and say, man, that was an excellent sermon.

But not only just saying it's an excellent sermon, but when they can quote something back to me from the sermon or tell me why it was good or how it helped them, even if it wasn't something I expected. Like that's always my favorite thing is like, okay, this is the way I believe the spirit's gonna take it.

But so many times people come to me and say something, well, this, this is what, this is what God said to me through this. And that's, that's powerful 'cause I wasn't even aiming at that. 

Nicole: Well, and the thing is too, is those, those. Those, um, thing elements that people have shared are things that you can hold onto when, when things do get rough.

Um, last year, no, it was the year before last for Mother's Day, I, I still remember this because I preached on the passage where Jesus was talking [00:37:00] about the birth pains. Mm-hmm. And because I'm a woman and a mother who's gone through labor, I was able to share some insight about that passage that a lot of people hadn't heard before.

And this very wonderful retired pastor in the Church of the Nazarene, he is since passed away. It was one of his last, last, uh, services at the church. He shook my hand afterwards and he said, and this is why we need women preaching, because I've never heard it preached quite that way before. And that's, that was wonderful.

Jason (2): Yeah. 

Nicole: And, and it just, it's something that is, I've held onto it. I've kept it close to my heart ever since. And there are times when I'm really discouraged and really frustrated with, you know, just. Just life in general and am I doing the right thing? Am I, should I even be here? Especially like the [00:38:00] last little bit of my, my, uh, my classes.

They were just, there was so much going on in life and I was just so tired and worn out and I was just like, I need to give up. I'm so tired. And I would remember what he said there. This is why we need women preachers. And it gave me the oomph to go a little further. 

Jason (2): Yeah. 

But 

Jason (2): yeah. Now I think a benefit we have here, like this is kind of talk about finding ways of finding moments in peace amid the chaos.

Now, one, if I'm finding myself really restless and not able to sleep, I don't even, I just come over here, I come over to the sanctuary and I will actually lay down in the pew, find a blanket, and put on some worship music and just lay there and let the spirit speak to my mind and calm it down. 

Nicole: There were a few times, um, over the course of this winter.

That I did that where I, I couldn't sleep at night and I went and I would literally fall asleep on the altar. 

Jason (2): Yeah. And so you're, you're, you're kind of preparing your heart and you're in God's [00:39:00] presence and uh, that kind of calms you down. But the other thing that helps me is we have Sunday school here, so the service starts at 10 45, but Sunday school starts at 10 and goes to 10 30.

And. And I've gone back and forth on this in my ministry career. There are times where I'm teaching a class, which obviously that's extra prep work and you don't really have time to relax. But here I'm most, most of the time I'm able to just go sit in a Sunday school class. And we have a wonderful Sunday school teacher who does an excellent job.

Um, the adults that come for that class are really engaged, ask good questions, and are really genuinely wrestling with what, whatever we're studying for that week. Yeah. That's encouraging for me as a pastor too. 'cause I do get, it gives me a few moments to allow the Holy Spirit to feed me a little bit and, 

Nicole: and then also get to see them actually seeking.

Jason (2): Yes. And so, and there's always something that I take outta that lesson that it finds its way into the service. Whether it's in the introduction, the prayer time, or the offering time even, [00:40:00] or even in the sermon itself. God always brings something to mind out of, out of that, that time in Sunday school. Uh, so again, just give, it's like you're intentionally taking that 30 minutes.

Then the other thing I do is if you look at me during the special, my eyes will be closed and my head will be bowed. It's not because I'm taking a quick nap, it's 'cause I'm spending some, a few minutes in prayer. All right, God, we're getting ready to go. Um, prepare my heart. And there's been some times where the special does a better job of preaching than what I'm gonna do, and I have to make sure I'm prepared for that too.

Alright, Lord, if, if you change the course of direction, I'm, I'm willing to go with you. Um, there's been a lot of times where I hope the Holy Spirit would do that and he didn't. And I still had to preach the message like this entire Love Thy neighbor series. Mm-hmm. But, um, he does, here's the thing, grace always shows up.

Yeah. Uh, no matter where you are, no matter how defeated you feel after the service is over. Grace always shows up somewhere and, [00:41:00] and I'll never forget again, it ties into what that story of e alleged, I was really tired and beat up one, one sun, one Monday, Monday morning. So I messaged my Ds and just let him know I'm super tired and we are today.

Let him know some concerns I was doing with and he texted me back, said, praying for you, take a nap. And I appreciated that so much. It was so, so honest. Was that so simple? Was that, was that our like yeah, that, that, that was our current d ds and he did that. I appreciated that so much. Um, 

Nicole: for the record, if there are any Nazarene pastors out there who were looking for a district, the Eastern Kentucky district is a wonderful wonder.

Area. So 

Jason (2): yes. Um, so that's kind of our story. I guess we dealt with just as much as we did Sunday chaos as we did the Saturday night. But just know pastors, families, I mean, every family is crazy. I remember growing up, I was so excited when I got my license to drive myself to church because. My mom, I, you know, I have my mom, me, [00:42:00] my younger brother, my younger two sisters, and whenever it came time for my mom to brush my sister's hair, oh, it was like, I couldn't imagine.

It was like my mom was in there slaying dragons and they were screaming bloody murder. 

Nicole: So that's where our girls get it. 

Jason (2): Yes. And so I was, as soon as I got my license, I'm like, I am getting in the car and I am getting outta here before it hits that I will get my coffee at the church. Uh, our Sunday school teacher usually has a donut or something.

I'll, I'll find food there somewhere. Um, so just know if, if your family's crazy on Sunday morning, the way to church. You're not alone. No. And don't let that be a discouragement for you. 

Nicole: No. 

Jason (2): Uh, if you come into church and your kids are being a little mouthy and giving you eye rolls, don't let that discourage you.

Nicole: Join the club. 

Jason (2): Yes. 

Nicole: We have a, we have a preteen who regularly talks back to her dad while he's in the pulpit. 

Jason (2): Yeah. And if you come in and your kids are in mismatched socks and, and you know that one strand of hair on your, your son's head, it won't stay down no matter how much hair gel you put on it.

That's [00:43:00] all right. You're there and you just being there is a blessing.

Nicole: You are not, you're not a bad pastor. You're not a bad parent. You're not, you're not a bad person. If the Saturdays leading into Sunday mornings are hectic and Sunday mornings are just at our chaos. Mm-hmm. You're, you're not alone. And the thing is, one thing we need to remember is that ministry isn't just what happens on the platform.

It's, it's those little moments when you're having to extend a little bit of grace to that stubborn preteen mm-hmm. Who, who's rolling her eyes, or the the boy who will not put a clean shirt on to save his life. 

Mm-hmm. 

Nicole: And also it's the moments when we're having to extend grace to that. Little old lady that just shares her opinion a little too much.

Jason (2): That's right. And, and know this too, if your kid's the one that ends up in the hallway all the [00:44:00] time during children's church or being sent back up to the service. That was me. That was me. I was, I was the kid that was always in the hallway and 

Nicole: he still needs to be in the hallway. Yeah. And I always 

Jason (2): joke, God called me to preach 'cause he knew I couldn't sit still and be quiet long enough to, to just be there.

Um, but. Don't let that As a parent, don't let that be a discouragement to you. No, 

Nicole: and honestly, it's okay if, if you, if you come to a church and you don't necessarily feel comfortable sending your kid down to Children's Church because it's, it's a new environment. It's it, you can't watch them there. It's okay for them to be a little noisy.

It's okay for them to get the wiggles out. It's, it's okay. I'm. You know, one thing, one thing our church does is we, we have busy bags. There's a fidget in there, there's coloring pages, and then there's like the, um, depending on the age group, there's coloring [00:45:00] pages or activity sheets or, or things like that.

But if your church doesn't have that, just bring one. Bring coloring books, bring little quiet fidgets, bring things that the kids can play with that, you know, will keep 'em occupied. Because I know it can sometimes feel embarrassing when you have a kid that will not stop talking. I'll tell you one thing though, as a pastor, and this one will agree as a pastor, we love hearing those little voices 

Jason (2): we do.

Nicole: It doesn't matter if they're screaming. It doesn't matter if they're trying to interrupt. We love hearing those little voices. 

Jason (2): Yes. 

Nicole: We have one little boy in our church who tries to out preach us every time we're in the pulpit. 

Jason (2): That's right. 

Nicole: And we love it. 

Jason (2): Yes. Every time. And I'll, I'll, I'll close it with a story too, just because I, you know, I, I just visited my family and it's fresh in my mind, but, so my, my grandma was one of 12 kids that didn't really regularly go to church, [00:46:00] but her Aunt Lucille went to a Nazarene church.

Faithfully week after week. And occasionally my grandma would go with her on Sunday nights. And, and even my, you know, one Easter, my, my grandma was able to get her dad, her whole family at church because of her my grand, if you know, my grandma, uh, because of her persistence. Right. She, her dad had promised.

She is 

Nicole: so stubborn. I love it. Yeah. Her dad, I 

Jason (2): promised to go and tried to butt back out, but my grandma wouldn't let me back out. But what, what I love about that story is, and my mom pointed this out, it may not have got the Aunt Lucille's prayer, may have not got on all those kids in church, but my grandma got her grandkids in that church.

Mm-hmm. 

Jason (2): And two of us are pastors and a daughter-in-law is a pastor. Because Aunt LA you prayed. So maybe, maybe you don't, maybe you don't [00:47:00] have kids that you can bring, but you be that aunt, be that grandparent that prays for the families around you. Be the neighbor. Be the neighbor. 'cause you don't know what kind of impact and legacy your prayers will lead to.

Mm-hmm. 

Jason (2): But you get to sit back and watch what God can do. 

Yeah. 

Jason (2): Well thanks for pulling up a chair at a table for two. Uh, today's episode made you feel seen. Shoot us a message or tag a friend who's living this life too. 

Nicole: And if you're listening on a Sunday morning while trying to keep your coffee off your church clothes, bless you.

I, I get it. You're doing holy work, even if the dog ate your divas. 

Jason (2): Yes. And until next time, be kind to yourself. 

Nicole: And be bold enough to bring your real life with you to church. It's okay to be a little messy. Yes, it's okay to be a lot messy. 

Jason (2): Yes, grace and peace to you. Friends through 

Theme Song: storms and swallowed on noise Church, Jesus, and hand copy and mugs.

Our life held together by grace. And a few hugs they said she submits. We [00:48:00] said we both do. It's not about ladder since you serving the kingdom in ones lines and. Tense and all routines at this table for two. There's room for you. Pull up. Butcher will tell the truth, love, and.