Deconstruction Isn't a Dirty Word

What if asking hard questions about your faith isn't rebellion, but a path toward deeper trust in Jesus? In this honest and hope-filled episode, Jason and Nicole unpack what "deconstruction" really means, why it is not a dirty word, and how it can lead to a stronger, more authentic walk with God.

From small-town church politics to generational gaps, cultural Christianity, and personal convictions, they address the real reasons people in Appalachia (and beyond) rethink their faith. Along the way, they share personal stories, biblical insights, and practical encouragement for those who are wrestling and for those walking alongside them.

Highlights include:

• Why deconstruction can be a healthy, biblical process
• How personal convictions can harm when forced on others
• Common cultural and church experiences that spark deconstruction
• Biblical examples of "holy deconstruction" from Jesus, the prophets, and the disciples
• Encouragement for rebuilding faith on the true foundation--Jesus

Whether you're in the middle of deconstruction, curious about it, or skeptical, this episode offers grace, perspective, and the reminder that the deepest worship often comes with the deepest wrestling.

Thanks for pulling up a chair at Table for Two. If you enjoyed today's conversation, we'd love for you to join us on Facebook! It is where we share behind-the-scenes updates, chat with listeners, and keep the conversation going throughout the week. We'd love to see you there.

Transcript

Jason: Welcome back to Table for Two, where the conversations are real. The coffee is hot, and the chairs are squeaky. I'm Jason, pastor, husband, and occasional thinker of everything I thought I knew. And I'm Nicole, his wife, also a pastor. And I'm a proud owner of a faith that's been torn down and rebuilt more times than our kids blanket for it in the living room.

Nicole: And just like that for my faith's stronger every single time. Yeah. Today we're talking about a word that makes some people nervous. That word is deconstruction. Mm-hmm. But here's the spoiler. It's not a dirty word. We're gonna walk through what deconstruction is, why it can actually be beautiful, and why you don't have to lose your faith when you start asking hard questions.

So if you've ever been told that you're walking away from God just because you're wrestling with your beliefs, pull up a chair. We've got some good news for [00:01:00] you. This table for two, this is table for two for storms and swallowed on noise. Church cheese and hand copy and mugs are lights held together by grace and a few hugs.

Theme song: Said she submits. We said we both do. It's not about ladders since me, you serving the kingdom lock lines and callans and holy routines at this table for two. There's room for you. Pull up. Butcher will tell the truth, love, and faith with the side for. Alright, before we jump into the deep end, uh, let's start with a light question.

Jason: If you had to completely tear down and rebuild one room in our house, which would it be and why? Does it only have to be one room? Because honestly, I'd like to completely redo the kid's side of the apartment. Um, no. Like seriously, it's got the perfect setup. We could easily make a master suite in there and just by putting up a door, but I really wanna get rid of that [00:02:00] carpet.

Yeah. Like the kids have been putting so much wear and tear on that carpet. I would love to just like lay down flooring, like solid flooring rather than fabric. But you know, I'm just thankful they didn't change out the carpet before we moved in because that would've been bad. Yes. So maybe we need to remodel the kids and not their side of the house.

Nicole: No. Their side of the house. I, I honestly could see it being really pretty. Yeah. What about you? For me, actually it's, it's gotta be the kitchen. And there's two things I would add. One is more cabinet space. Oh yeah. And two, a dishwasher. And I'm not talking about the three that that we created, but an actual mechanical dishwasher.

Yes. That would handle our dishes more regularly than, and more counter space. Like not just cabinet space, but counter space. More counter space. Yes. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love where we live at. Yeah. It's, we're blessed to live there. Very blessed. [00:03:00] But those were the changes we would make. And there's so much space.

It's just, there's a couple of tweaks that we would make if we could. But I mean, here's the thing, like, just like that, you know, we love our house at, there's a couple of things that we would like to do. Deconstruction is not really that much different from remodeling a room in your house or even a section of your house.

You don't burn the whole place down. You don't completely hate everything that is there. You just take out the things that are broken or a little dysfunctional, unhealthy, and you build something better. Yes. All right. So maybe you're listeners, and you've never heard this term before, but, and you're asking yourself, what is deconstruction?

Jason: Yeah. And what's so, why is it such a taboo word? Well, the definition of deconstruction, the sense we're talking about is it's the intentional process of examining your beliefs, traditions, and practices to see if they align with the character message of Jesus. [00:04:00] That's what deconstruction is. Uh, there may be some others that use a different term, but they, even the different terms essentially mean the same thing.

Nicole: Yeah. So the thing about deconstruction is it's not just deconstruction for deconstruction's sake. Like people don't just decide, you know what? I grew up with this faith and now I just wanna tear it down. There's always a reason for it. Um, it's. They, they've gone through life and they've realized that how they were raised and how life is actually playing out, something's a little different there.

And they're trying to, they're trying to reconcile it. Yeah. They're trying to reconcile this faith that they were taught to believe and the reality before them. And sometimes it's, you know, sometimes it's pretty rough. But the thing is, is it's all rooted in. Honest questions. Yes. And how those questions are received by the people around them.

It honestly kind of frames how deconstruction ultimately happens. [00:05:00] That's right. And in a lot of ways it's, it's a person discovering their, their faith for themself. And like you said, it, it, the way they're raised versus how they're experiencing life. Yeah. And, and maybe it's not just experienced in life, maybe when they've read scripture for themselves Yeah.

Jason: That's not resonating. Yeah. Because with the way they were raised, I know for me, especially when I was digging into the prophets, there was a lot in the prophets that I grew up being taught was not the way of holiness. And yet the prophets are like, Hey, no, this is, this is what God wants the people of God to do.

Nicole: And I'm like, Hmm, yeah, that's a little different. Um, and if you study scripture. Um, you'll see that this takes place actually in the Bible. Oh yeah. So I've been personal time, I've been reading in Leviticus. Right. And so it's God's people shifting from being in, in Egypt now to being on their own. Mm-hmm.

Jason: Journeying toward the Promised Land. And one of the laws that caught my [00:06:00] attention today, which was in, I think it was, I can't remember what chapter, 16 or 17, somewhere in there, um, it addresses the idea of marrying two sisters, right? Mm-hmm. A man should not marry two sisters. Well, that's a. That's a direct reference to Jacob who married Leah and Rachel and consider one of the forefathers of faith.

But, and actually as a nation, they, they came to be a nation because of that marriage. Those marriages? Yeah, those marriages. But they recognized that this was not a healthy way to live. Mm-hmm. Um. Just because culture deemed it okay for a man to have multiple wives. And just because this man had been revered by the people of Israel did not make it right.

Yeah. And so they, God gave them Moses a law to share with the people that addressed that. Um, and we see, you know, when, when the people shift from the tabernacle to the temple. There's a shift. Mm-hmm. Because some of the jobs that were involved with the, the, the, the tabernacle, you know, which was [00:07:00] required moving around from place to place, but now it didn't move anymore.

It was a physical being that was in Jerusalem. Yeah. So that caused people to rethink and, and, and changed how the Levitical roles took place. Yeah. But the thing is, what's really cool about it is Jesus even kind of exposes. The people of his day to it because he is like, Hey, you've heard people say, you've heard that Scripture says, but I'm gonna tell you something else.

Nicole: I'm gonna tell you something new. And that, that's deconstructing and reconstructing a whole different idea. Because like for example, you've heard it said Eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth that's saying, Hey, you can repay. You can repay evil for evil. And Jesus is like, no, that's not my way. That's not holiness.

Mm-hmm. Holiness is repaying evil with good. Yeah, that's right. And that's, that's where, when we say that deconstruction is not a dirty word, that's [00:08:00] where it's good. Mm-hmm. Right? Because what, what deconstruction helps us do, it's like, again, you built this house of what you believe. Right? It's built on the foundation of Jesus.

Hopefully. Yeah. Yeah. The foundation should be Jesus. Otherwise you're gonna take the whole house apart. Right. But the foundation's built on, geez, some of the rooms might not be what they should be. Yeah. But you, there might be some rotting in some of the studs or whatever, but Yeah. You're not gonna have to tear the whole house down.

Jason: Right. And, and so deconstruction helps us realize, you know, keeps us from becoming blind to, to faith. Right. Rather than just focusing on tradition alone. Yeah. Uh, it allows us to. Experience faith. Right. The bi, the Bible becomes alive not just in the way we read it, but in the way we experience the God of the Bible.

Mm-hmm. In our everyday life. That kind of reminds me of a story that I had heard about, um, this [00:09:00] bench at this like military camp that people were guarding. There were two, there were two centuries on duty guarding this bench. And at one point this reporter comes, 'cause he is doing a, he's doing a article on military protocol and stuff like that.

Nicole: So he goes and he sees these two soldiers guarding this bench. And he's like, why are you guarding this bench? And they're like, well, we were told by officer so-and-so, you know, Colonel so-and-so, something like that. And um, and so he goes to the, that. That colonel and, and he's like, well, I, I had him guard the bench because, you know, it's, it's been guarded for years long before my, my, uh, placement at this, at this state, like at this camp.

So, you know, you'll have to ask what the significance of the bench is. 'cause I really don't know. I just know that it was being guarded when I was there. So he goes and he investigates the previous. Uh, chain of command. And, [00:10:00] and they're like, oh, well, um, this, this previous colonel had people guarding, and so we just kept the tradition alive.

And so he goes to the previous colonel who's long since retired. Mm-hmm. And he is like, so what's the significance of this bench? Why are, why do you still have, why do you have people guarding it? And he's like, that stupid bench isn't dry yet. They painted that decades ago.

Sometimes we keep a tradition alive that has no merit being a tradition whatsoever. And I mean like, and so having these blind traditions create, create opportunities for our faith to be fractured and there to be cracks in our faith because we don't know why we're doing things. Yeah. We don't understand the significance of why nobody sits in bertha's pew.

Jason: Mm-hmm. Or we don't understand the stained glass windows that, you know, that ha are dedicated to so and so, and I'm just using that as an [00:11:00] example. Yeah. Be we have stained glass windows dedicated, but those are, you know, we understand the significance of those, but there are churches that have stainless windows that you will never tear out because they're, they're there by tradition and we don't understand 'em.

Right. But, but there are other little traditions. Why is that? Why is that pulpit there? Why is that organ there? Why is, why does that, you know, blanket have to be there? What's the significance of these traditions? And because nobody understands those significance of those traditions. When people ask why there's, they're met with, well, you just have to deal with it.

Nicole: You have to follow it. Yeah. And. And the thing is, is that doesn't answer the question. Right. And when a question is left unanswered, it creates a, it, it creates a fracture, and that fracture just goes wider and wider and wider. The more answers are, or the more questions are that are [00:12:00] left unanswered and eventually there's a crack in the wall, right?

And you have to figure out what's causing that crack. Right? So you have to tear it down. Yes. You have to. Yeah. Otherwise, eventually the whole house could collapse. Mm-hmm. And, and know that doesn't necessarily mean it's a foundational issue. Yeah. But that wall's holding something up. Yeah. And sometimes what, what triggers these deconstruction moment is, is either we hit a, a new place in life, right?

Jason: Like we go from being a kid living in our parents' house to being an adult on our own, or, um. Move from one town to another town, or switch from one church to another church or change up some type of life event happens. And so think about it, if you live in a house for a long time, you're not gonna notice the imperfections as often.

Why? Because you've lived there a long time and you've gotten used to it. Used to it. [00:13:00] But somebody that moves into a new house is gonna look at it. And see it completely different, that that's what happens when we have those life changes. Our eyes are changed because our experience is different. So when we walk into house, our eyes are open to things.

So, but that's also how we grow spiritually. So for me, I remember growing up thinking, alright, if I'm, if I, if I say I believe in Jesus means that I'm going to try and only do good things, right. Because if I do, if I sin, that means I'm gonna go to hell. And so I would live my life walking with Jesus afraid of going to hell.

Mm. But that's not what the bio, yes, the hell is real. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that. But that's not God's aim. God's aim, the emphasis of the Bible is not hell. It's it's being in his presence. Yes. But see, and so that, that, that was a deconstruction moment for me. It wasn't a big one, but it was one, and it allowed my focus to shift.

Mm-hmm. And then another moment from there though. 'cause so my focus went from not wanting to go to health to, okay, now, now [00:14:00] I'm focused, I'm gonna be in his presence. Mm-hmm. But I'm thinking presence as at the end of my life. Right? Yeah. After I've died and gone to heaven. But the more I study scripture, the more I've been, it's about his presence here and now.

Yeah. And then, then, then I realized holiness, you know, being a, being holy as he is only means. Living in love with God now and loving others while he gives me the opportunity. And that's kinda what the Bible is talking about when we read Hebrews chapter five, verse 14. It says, uh, but solid food is from mature, whose senses are trained by practice to distinguish between good and evil.

Mm-hmm. Deconstruction is us realizing the difference between good and evil. And sometimes it's not just good and evil, it goes beyond, it goes between good and best. Yeah. Um, so. Deconstruction is what makes room for us to grow spiritually and, and, and grow in maturity. Yeah. But you know, sometimes we, let's go back to like the actual, like image of the house.

Nicole: Okay. Yeah. [00:15:00] Sometimes, yes, we have a solid foundation and, and that's, that foundation is Jesus. Yeah, but sometimes our foundation isn't on Jesus. Sometimes it's on a Bible translation. Mm-hmm. I mean, I, I grew up being attending A-K-J-V-A-K-J-V only church. And when, um, when I left that, it was kind, it was very different because everything.

The, the church I started to attend, they, they used the new King James when they preached, but they handed out the ESV, they handed out the NIV, they handed out the, the a SV. They handed out pretty much any translation of the Bible that anybody wanted, because that was it. It was really about reading scripture and, and so while my foundation was on Jesus, and it wasn't on the KJB 'cause I, again, I attended the.

That church, but I read the NIVL, so it [00:16:00] wasn't that, but there were a lot of people that I knew that were very much KJV only, and their foundation and faith was founded not on Jesus, but on the, the translation of the Bible they were reading. Yeah. And, and then. I have several friends that have since deconstructed, and because their foundation wasn't on Jesus, they walked away from the faith because they realized the inaccuracies of the KJV.

They were like, well, if this is inaccurate, then this is, then it's not reliable, and therefore scriptures unreliable and, and so they walked away because their foundation was unreliable. But if you are going through that process. You don't have to completely tear down everything. You can shore up the foundation.

Kind of like when we were, um, when we were in Colorado, we attended a, or Jason started youth pastoring at a church in Colorado. And when the, the church had initially been built, it [00:17:00] was built on limestone, I believe, or sandstone, some type of crumbly rock. Yeah. It was very crumbly. It was very brittle. And they built this entire building.

It was like $3 million debt free. Like it was, it was amazing that they were able to do this. But within a year, the foundation started to crumble and there were cracks in the walls, two inches thick, and you could see into the next room, like there was very little privacy in that church because even though there were walls, there were cracks.

And they, they didn't abandon the building, at least not immediately. Um, but they were able to shore up the foundation. It was costly and it was time consuming, but it, they were able to shore it up and ensure that that building was secure and safe to hold service in. And that's what we can do If we discover that our foundation is crumbly.

Jason: Yeah, we can shore it up by simply putting our found, changing our foundation from scripture, which [00:18:00] scripture's great. But it needs to be Jesus. Jesus is the solid rock scripture is one of the building materials. Yeah. Yeah. And, and that's where deconstruction is also good, is it can help us be more resilient in our faith.

Yeah. Right. And I, I said earlier, life changes are often what causes our shift in thinking. Um, I can't remember who said it, but everybody's a good fighter until they get hit in the mouth. And I'm sure I butchered the quote, but. You know, we think we know what we believe until we encounter something that contradicts it contradict and it causes us, us to question everything.

Nicole: Mm-hmm. And it's okay to ask those questions because the more we ask those questions, if we're leaning into our faith instead of away from, if we lean into it, we'll we might find some answers that we seek. Sometimes we might just get God says, trust me, but. Gives our faith [00:19:00] strength, right? Mm-hmm. Because it's, again, it's talking about, it's about building on that foundation, which is Christ.

Yeah. Um, but it also, it also helps us separate just the kingdom of God from just culture. Yes. Like there is a lot in, in American Christiandom that is just there because the forefathers practiced it. Yeah. Not because we should be. Right. And, and like there's, there's beliefs that we have, or I say we, I'm talking about general church, not, not us, but like things like, uh, clean cleanliness is next to godliness.

That is not in scripture at all. No. Um, God helps those who help themselves. That is not in scripture. At all. There's not even a basis for it in scripture. And then there's, there's cultural beliefs here in Appalachia that are very specific [00:20:00] to our area that, like for example, baptism, you have to be baptized in a river or a stream somewhere where the water's flowing.

So the sins are washed away downstream. That's not scriptural. Yeah. Yeah. But it's these beliefs that are caused by, um, being surrounded by a culture and. And the deconstruction that we can go through will help separate cultural tradition from Biblical and, and holy truth. That's right. All right. So why would someone deconstruct, now we're gonna try and answer some, give some reasons to this, but it's based on where we live.

Jason: We live in Appalachia. Mm-hmm. And so these are reasons why someone in our area here in Eastern Kentucky. Might be going through deconstruction, and maybe as you're listening, maybe one of these resonates with you, or maybe it resonates with somebody that, that's a friend of yours. So, uh, this is something you could share with them to help 'em realize they're not [00:21:00] crazy.

They're not a heretic, but they're normal. Yeah. They're, they're trying to remodel the house, their house, right? Yeah. And so that, that's what we're here for. So one of those things is church hurt. People have, people in our area have grown up in the church. A lot of them grew up in the church. They attended when they were small children, and they may have attended all throughout their growing up years.

Nicole: But something happened. Yeah. Either they, you know, let's say they had a, a leader in the church that they revered, right? But maybe that leader did something to them, like inappropriate or around them or around them. Or maybe they saw that leader out in the community doing something they shouldn't be doing.

Jason: Mm-hmm. And that caused them to realize, hey, well that person I, I admire so much as a hypocrite and, and they can't live up to God's standard. Who, how can I expect to do that? Yeah. And or maybe they were [00:22:00] going through something with their family, like mm-hmm. There's a divorce is pretty common out here.

Mm-hmm. And maybe they were rejected at, at the church after that. Like I've heard stories like that where families split up and the church picks one parent over the other and it breaks the heart of the children. Yeah. Or maybe church people don't admit this, but church people love to gossip, right?

There's no, there's no news network faster than the church people News network, especially small town church people News network. Yes. And. Uh, sometimes stories can get spun that maybe contain an element of truth, or one thing that's common is a small issue becomes a full-blown wildfire. Mm-hmm. Because no one actually goes and talks to the person at the center of the controversy.

Nicole: It's, it's, it goes from Betty to Beverly to Yeah. Not goes to the whole church directory before it comes around to the pastor and then to the [00:23:00] person that's being dealt with. Yeah. And, and, and, and when they, that person finds out, it is hurtful, right? Mm-hmm. To find out you're the sinner of gossip. And not only that, but the issue, another issue here is the fact that it's very, we have a very strong culture of we are not going to tell you.

Tell it like it is. Yeah. It's very, bless your heart and stab you in the back. Mm-hmm. And so to your face, they might be saying all sorts of kind things, but the second you're not in the room, they're turning people against you left and right. Right. And so you might never know why you're experiencing church hurt.

You might just notice that all of a sudden you're iced out. And you're like, what is happening here? Nobody's talking to me. Nobody's telling me anything. Everybody seems fine that when I'm in the room, but I know that the, that there's a [00:24:00] wall there. Yeah. What's happening? Yeah. We wanna, they wanna, they wanna quote And people that do that, they wanna quote scripture, say, well, well, we're just putting the sinner outta the church.

Jason: Okay. Yes. But you never had the conversation with them about what they were doing wrong. Well, and not only that, even, even if there was something wrong, not only that, but that's actually another example of complete misunderstanding Yes. Of a scripture. Because that passage in one Corinthians wasn't saying, put the sinner out of the church entirely.

Nicole: It was saying treat them as a sinner. That's right. And where do sinners need to be? The church. In church. Yeah. So they can hear the gospel repent and be saved. Exactly. Yeah. No, I was using it as an example. No, I know. So yeah, that, yeah. And then another thing that happens in churches that causes church hurt is because a lot of the churches in this area are smaller churches.

Jason: Certain people get into leadership spots and think, this is my spot now. Mm-hmm. I get to dictate to everybody else how this runs and, and actually if you get enough of one particular family or one particular faction in those spots. Usually it, it becomes to the, [00:25:00] for them it becomes, I've got control of this.

Nicole: Yeah. Don't you dare cross me. Right. And, and even to the fact where they've run pastors off because they didn't agree with that pastor's philosophy. Yeah. Um, and, and this doesn't always happen. No. But it can be so dangerous because people will use their service as a weapon. Yeah. Instead of the service that it was meant to be.

Hmm. We are, we're called to serve one another and people will say, well, if I, if you, I don't get my way, I'm gonna leave and then you're gonna be left without my service. Yeah. They also do the same thing with the tithe check. Yes. Uh, so one of the things that we can do to help eliminate a lot of church hurting this area is one, stop playing politics in the church.

Jason: Yes. Stop it. Stop maneuvering. That's something, and we'll get into this in a second, that's that's something that the world does. That's not something that the church does. What does a church do? When we have a problem, we address it. What the [00:26:00] Bible tells us, you have a problem with someone, go to that person.

You go to that person first, and then if they do not repent, if they do not listen, if they do not have respect for you to discuss it with you and explain why they did something and maybe, and work it out between the two of you, only then do you bring one more person. And again, at that point you don't gossip after that.

Nicole: You go that you and that one person go to that person. Yes. And you confront the sin. Yes. You confront the issue. Yes. And again, if there's no repentance, no reconciliation, no desire to change and, and not be hurtful, then you go and you bring the issue before the church leadership. That's right. And, and for the record that one other person that you contact can be the pastor.

Jason: Yeah. And that pastor is supposed to be confi, like keeping things confidential. Yeah. Between you and that one, that one person. [00:27:00] And until the, until the elders in the church need to be notified. Right. And again, the only time, or the only thing that happens after that is if, if, um, that person is still not repentant, you treat them as a sinner.

Nicole: And where do sinners need to be? At church, they need to be in church. Yes. They need to be surrounded by believers who will love them unconditionally and encourage them into repentance. Yes. Uh, also, Paul tells us so many times in his writings, walk Blamelessly. Mm-hmm. He's not saying that because it's a good idea.

Jason: He's saying that because the way we as Christians live our lives, not just inside the church, but outside it too shapes people's view of Jesus. Yeah, your bad attitude at the restaurant with that waiter or waitress, sets a, sets an, sets a image for that server of who Jesus is and what a, actually, I ask you [00:28:00] to do this sometimes if you're like us after church on Sundays, we go out to eat when we get there.

I don't ask this every time, but sometimes I ask, well, has everybody been nice to you today? And they will tell you usually on Sundays. No, it's been a rough day. And they're not referring to people outside that they're us, the church. They're referring to the church people. Yeah. It's usually the people in Sunday best.

Nicole: And in fact, if you get a new server who's never had you before and they don't know if you're a good customer or not, they tend to approach the table on Sundays for people with the Sunday best On a little bit more timidly. Yes, and a little bit more apologetically like a, actually, I think it was two weeks ago, we, we were at a restaurant and it was a new waitress.

Hmm. And we were dressed like we had just got from home, from church, or got there from church. We had been seated for two minutes, I think. And she's like, I'm so sorry for the weight girl. That wasn't even a weight. It was busy and you got to this when you got to us. [00:29:00] Um, so, so another reason why someone in our area.

Jason: Someone in general might be dealing with Church root is just because of cultural Christianity, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, they believe that if they've heard and they, they, they, they think because of what they've heard and what maybe what their families tell 'em. Their friends are telling them what they've seen on tv.

That to be a good Christian, they have to belong to a certain political party or, or behave a certain way, dress a certain way, watch certain things, not watch certain things. They've taken the focus on what it means to be a follower of Jesus from following Jesus into a do or do not do list. Yeah. Yeah.

Something that's not got anything to do with Jesus. Yeah. It's um, what's the cast and crowns line? Nobody knows what we're for, only what we're against when we judge who wound did. Yeah. Um. Jesus [00:30:00] doesn't belong to in either political party. No matter of fact, Jesus does not belong to any kingdom of this world.

No. Or party of this world. No. Jesus belongs to the kingdom of God and we claim to be followers of Jesus'. We're citizens of his kingdom. Right? And I'm not saying that as a Christian, you can't belong to one part or the other, but just I just caution you there. There might be times where your Christian beliefs don't fully align.

Nicole: Yeah. On either party. Yeah. Why? Because I'm, I'm gonna point out, I've heard it said multiple times, I don't understand how you can be a Christian and vote for this issue. I'm guaranteeing you right now. The Christian on the other side of the aisle is not voting for that issue. They're voting for the other issues around it, and they are looking on the other side of the aisle saying, I don't know how you can be a Christian and vote for that issue.

Jason: Yeah. Both sides are saying the same thing without, but, but it's because their focus isn't on Jesus. It's focused on the world. They [00:31:00] think, yeah, right. We're gonna have difference of opinions. We're not gonna, the disciples didn't see things eye to eye, not just when Jesus was with them, but after Jesus got was gone.

Nicole: Yeah. But I'll tell you one thing. There is no greater divider. In the faith in a separator from people or betwe separator between people and Jesus, then pointing the finger at them and saying, you can't be a Christian and be that party. Yes, it's not true. There's no, when you, when you, when you enter the Kingdom of Heaven, when we die and get to heaven, there's not gonna be a box that for us to check.

Jason: You know, you know, when we, when we go to, when we go to vote, or when we go to fill out our, you know, different things, there's no question of which political party do you belong to? Yeah. Jesus is neither red nor blue. Yes. So, ha. Yes. Um, another issue is just misinformation. Right? They've got some unbiblical teachings passed down as Truth Mean Rules with no biblical basis.

Mm-hmm. [00:32:00] Like for instance, I, when I was going to Kentucky Mountain Bible College, I, I, I always, I've told this story before, maybe not in the podcast, but I remember one particular weekend there was a gentleman from the community that was on the campus, right. And keep mind, we. I think it was Friday after class.

So we, for class, we had to wear button up shirts with, you know, it didn't have to be long sleeves, but you know, then, you know, dress pants and things like that. But this guy was sitting in the middle of the campus in his bib overall, his t-shirt. And as we were talking to him, most of us are studying to be pastors or some type of ministry for the church.

And this guy is quoting scripture verse after scripture with, he's holding, serve in our theological conversation. And we're all just like, man. Like this guy knows so much. And then he told us his story. He said he started going to one of the churches in the community and he was sitting in the front row, like every week he was there.

He was there. He went for months. And then one Sunday some church [00:33:00] person went up to him and said, listen, we we're glad you're coming, but if you wanna sit in the front row in front of everybody, you have to be wearing a suit and tie. That's disgusting. The guy never went back to church again. I don't blame him.

Yeah. It was that, that's, that's not, that's not a God thing. That's a, that is a personal conviction. That is a personal thing. Mm-hmm. Right. Um, well actually during Jason's first pastorate, senior pastorate, it was actually our first Sunday there, um, the church we were at had like 20 people. I don't remember that were attending.

I don't remember. Um, it was, it was a very small church as far as congregation wise. There was nobody leading the children's ministry. We didn't have a children's ministry. There was one other child that attended at the time, and our kids, yeah, I'm sorry. I'm not going and sitting in the sanc in the nursery every Sunday when my, [00:34:00] my husband is the senior pastor.

Nicole: I will not do it. So I. I told Jason, I'm like, you know, if there's not children's ministry, then I'm gonna teach my kids to sit in the sanctuary and I'm gonna sit, teach 'em to sit in the same pew that I grew up sitting in second row. So I sat second row and about 10 minutes after we sat down another couple, an elderly couple sat down directly behind us, like third row directly behind us.

And my kids were wiggly, but they weren't now loud, they were wiggly, and as most toddlers are, and preschoolers. And so, um. You know, but I was pretty pleased with how well my kids behaved for their very first Sunday having to sit in big church. Mm-hmm. For the whole thing. And this little lady that sat directly behind us, pulled me aside at after church and she's like, well if you're gonna bring the [00:35:00] kids every Sunday that they need to go to the SAN or the nursery.

And I told her, I was just like, that's not happening. If my kids are gonna have, if my goods are gonna come here, and we don't have a children's ministry. Then they're gonna sit in big church. Mm-hmm. She didn't like that, but fortunately the board stood by me. Mm-hmm. But imagine they said that to the pastor's wife and here and Yeah, like if, if she wasn't my wife, she would've probably gone someplace else.

Actually, I even told we had that discussion that week before he talked to the board. I told him, I was just like, you know, if, if this is gonna be the way the church responds to me and the kids. I'm going to go to a different church. I had one picked out I was ready to go to. Yeah. So if you're just deconstructing because of that, that's a good thing.

Jason: You're trying to separate what the Bible actually says from the manmade stuff. Mm-hmm. The [00:36:00] manmade stuff can be a distraction, can be a hindrance to actually your spiritual maturity and your spiritual growth. As believers, if you're listening to this and you're worried about somebody deconstructing, perhaps maybe part of the issue is that you've been pressuring them with some non-biblical issue.

Mm-hmm. So stop and examine, okay, what am I? And even then, even then, even if it is a biblical truth, understand the Holy Spirit does the work, not us. Yeah. We voice it, but the Holy Spirit is the one that changes the heart. Yeah. So you don't, they don't need you applying like pressure on them. Yeah. Because a lot of these issues, they are personal convictions.

Nicole: Yes. A lot of like what you wear on a Sunday morning. That's a personal choice. That's a personal conviction. And one thing I I, I actually said this in a sermon a while back, but personal convictions are great if they stay personal. Mm-hmm. Because that's how you love Jesus better. That's how I love Jesus better.

But it's not how. It. It's [00:37:00] not a mold that I'm supposed to force somebody into. Right. What I wear on a Sunday morning is what I wear on a Sunday morning. I'm not gonna tell another young lady to wear the same thing I wear for one thing. Different body types for another different styles. Mm-hmm. She needs to wear what's going to be comfortable for her and what's going to not be a distraction for her.

Jason: Yeah. If it's distracting somebody else, that's between them and God not. Not her and God. Yes. Yeah. Um, but, but no. So what you wear on a Sunday morning, the food you eat, I, I, I had conversation about like certain brands of food that you can't consume. Mm-hmm. Because the mark of the devil Yes. Is part of the local Don't drink a monster because the, you put turn the can upside down.

It has a 6, 6, 6 on it and it is unleash. If you play Christian rock music backwards, it sounds Satanic news flash. You play any song backwards, it's gonna sound satanic. Yeah. [00:38:00] Um, but no, like, those are personal convictions or,

Nicole: but no, those are personal convictions. Personal convictions are how you love Jesus better. Mm-hmm. And the second you start forcing 'em onto somebody else, you're not loving Jesus. Mm-hmm. You're loving yourself. Yep. So put those aside, but another thing that people tend to combine these stuff. Okay. Another, another thing that people tend to deconstruct about is, is things like generational issues and, and, and the differences in generations.

Like for example, our parents. Were able to buy, or at least my parents, my parents were able to buy a house on my mother's minimum wage, JC Penney's budget. Mm-hmm. As like right after she put my dad through college, four year college. Mm-hmm. My dad got his bachelor's degree in teaching on a [00:39:00] minimum wage budget.

Jason: Yeah. Part-time. By the way, my mom was not working full-time. She was part-time. Yeah. And our generation now has, the average person has what? A 70,000 student loan, $70,000 student loan debt. Right. And the cost of a house. Both people have to work in order to afford a small, little, small, little starter home.

Nicole: Full time over time. Yeah. And this, there's this misunderstanding between the generations of the struggle mm-hmm. That, that we deal with versus the struggles they dealt with. Because their struggles might not have been full on financial, but they were struggling too. Yeah. We're not saying they, and we don't have the same struggles, but we are very quick to dismiss their struggles and they're quick to dismiss ours.

And, and just say, well, in my [00:40:00] day. Mm-hmm. Well, it's not your day anymore. Yeah. It's different. Yeah. And, and yeah. It's a lot easier for me to communicate with my loved ones than, and so living across the country is not that difficult. Yeah. Anymore. Yeah. Well, and you, you realize the only thing that any two day has in common is that it was different than the day before.

Yeah. But there's these, there's these generational gaps and they often end up showing themselves in, in various ways. Like there's this insensitivity to injustice mm-hmm. And poverty. Mm-hmm. And addiction. I mean, how many of our parents have dealt with alcoholism because of the burden that they had to deal with?

Jason: Mm-hmm. I mean, they were, they were dealing with so much trauma. Yeah. And, and they turned to the, to alcohol because that's what they, that was how they coped and how many of our parents ha like, [00:41:00] were alcoholics or smokers or things like that. And we look at that and we're just like, well, they could have chosen Yeah, better.

Nicole: And, and meanwhile they're like, well, you could have chosen better financial, financial decisions. And really what's at the heart of the generational gap and the things you just talked about, you know, real life crisis stuff. Is the, the issue becomes the Sunday school answer doesn't match the reality of the rest of the week, and that's what they're wrestling with.

Jason: If that's a per, if that's who you are, my advice to you is one, block out the noise. Yeah. And then to open your Bible. When you get, when you get a minute, when you get a minute to breathe, open your Bible and start reading it for yourself. Yeah. And tell God, show me. Yep. Tell God, show me and, and tell God to please give me a little bit more compassion Yes.

Nicole: To the other generations. And if you go to your pastor, [00:42:00] if your pastor won't help you, we'll be your pastor. Come to us. Yes. Tell us what you're going through. Tell us what you're messing with. Tell us what you're reading, what, what you think it's saying, or we, we will help you. Right. We'll, shit, we'll, we'll, we'll let you vent, we'll let you talk.

Jason: We won't judge you because of it. We might be a little blunt, but we're not gonna trust We're be truthful. We'll, we'll be truthful with you on something. Yes. But it's done out of love to help you understand, you're, you're, you're trying to grow in your faith. You're trying to make sense with what, what, what you were experiencing versus what, what the Bible says and what you've been taught and told to believe.

Yeah. But those things mesh. God will show you somehow. Right. But some it may not be in an instant. It might take some digging. It may take some, some deconstruction or remodeling of your house, but it's there. Yeah. So, yeah, and, and I wanna encourage you though, because the deconstruction process, while it's hard, it [00:43:00] doesn't scare God.

No. It doesn't scare God. We, we have several Christian leaders out there that will, like, they, they will badmouth the process. And say your deconstruction is proving that you don't trust God. That's not it at all. Well, it could be. Yeah, because your foundation wasn't on the right thing. But God, if you are truly seeking him, he will make himself known to you.

Yeah. He will show himself to you and. And that's, that's the like, that's the thing. Make sure that your foundation is Sure. Yeah. And if you're a person that looks at somebody else and says, you don't have faith because you're decon, you don't trust God. I will argue that the problem is you're too afraid to ask God the same question.

Yeah. You are too afraid. God is [00:44:00] not afraid. You're too afraid because your faith is too fragile. Yes. If someone removes that pin, it will unravel the whole thing and you'll be left. With either a foundation or your, maybe your face built on something that's not Jesus. So perhaps what really needs to take place is you need to ask God to soften your heart, but also help you to search your own heart because there's something that you're afraid that you don't want somebody to touch.

Nicole: Yeah, and I, my own process, it started back when I was a kid. I didn't realize what it was then, but I started asking questions and it made my mom uncomfortable. There were two summers where I was grounded from reading the Bible. I was grounded from reading anything because I was reading, and it caused me to ask some questions that made my mom uncomfortable.

And so I, I didn't read, but I kept asking those questions and those questions kept nagging at me, and [00:45:00] eventually I found answers that satisfied, but it. The questions remain whether you want them to or not. So it's better to just let God handle those questions. Let him mm-hmm. Let be honest with him. I mean, we, we act like we need to walk around on eggshells, around God.

He can handle our questions. He can handle, he knows you're asking them. Yeah. He can handle our anger or frustration when we. Experience a tragedy in our life and it starts creating those questions because we're angry at God. And how could a loving God ever have this, let this happen. He's okay with that question.

Ask it. Explore the answers, find it. He will help you. And I wanna encourage you, you are not alone in any of those questions. Every question that you are asking right now, somebody else is asking too. Yeah. Somebody else has asked. We might have asked it. And if you read the scriptures, job asked [00:46:00] questions.

Jason: Jeremiah asked questions. Thomas was the only disciple braveness to ask a question that they all were thinking. But you know what? They all were thinking it. Mm-hmm. Because when Mary said that Jesus was out, was risen from the tomb, dis two of the disciples went to go investigate for themselves 'cause they wouldn't believe her.

Yes, faith can survive. The fire what's from God will remain, but what's not will fall away. And that's a good thing. Yep. Okay. And, and the thing with deconstruction is, its goal is not to destroy our faith. It's not right. It's to find Jesus again. The goal is to rebuild the house stronger and sturdier. And I also wanna encourage you that if you found yourself at a point where the whole foundation crumbled, the house fell apart, and your all your left is with, with its broken pieces.

Nicole: God can help you rebuild that thing so much [00:47:00] better. Mm-hmm. You're not alone. Sometimes you have to clear away the rubble to see him clearly. Yeah. So if you're in the middle of deconstructing, remember you're not doing something wrong. You might actually be doing something very right. And I would argue that that is more than likely the case.

So don't let anyone convict convince you that questions equal rebellion. You're not being rebellious when you ask why you're not being rebellious. If you ask how those are essential questions to ensuring that our faith are strong. Mm-hmm. Sometimes the deepest worship comes with the deepest wrestling.

Yes. So whether you're remodeling a bathroom, a kitchen, or your entire belief system, that process can be messy. But the beauty on the other side is worth it. Okay, so this week, if you're asking big questions, give yourself grace, and if someone you love is deconstructing, give them the space to deconstruct, [00:48:00] but also be willing to face those questions with them.

Sometimes we need that, that support of somebody else being willing to walk that journey with us because you never know God. God might be rebuilding something strong in them and he might be using them. To build you up even stronger too. Amen. Well, thank you for pulling up a chair at table for two. Until next time.

Grace and peace to you. In the name of Jesus for storms and swallow noise, church keys and hand copy and mugs are light held together by grace. And a few hugs they said she submits. We said we both do. It's not about ladders since me, you serving the kingdom and eighth one lines and cows and holy routine.

Theme song: Table for two. There's room for you. Pull up. Butcher will tell the truth, love, and with the.