In Color

If you've ever opened your Bible looking for a simple answer and discovered a complicated situation instead, this episode is for you.

In this conversation, Jason and Nicole explore what happens when real life refuses to fit neatly into categories. Through stories from parenting, ministry, friendship, and Scripture, they discuss why following Jesus often requires wisdom, humility, grace, and a deeper understanding of God's heart.

Together they explore:

• How to study difficult Bible passages faithfully
• The difference between biblical conviction and spiritual arrogance
• Paul's teaching on food sacrificed to idols in 1 Corinthians
• Why context matters when reading Scripture
• Christian discipleship in complicated situations
• Parenting, conflict, forgiveness, and reconciliation
• The balance of grace and truth
• What holiness looks like in everyday life

Plus, the fictional text-message saga continues as Amber and Heather attempt to force a reconciliation between their daughters after the now-infamous "Satan worshiper" misunderstanding—with results that are both frustrating and hilarious.

Whether you're navigating a difficult relationship, wrestling with a challenging Bible passage, or simply trying to follow Jesus in a complicated world, this episode offers encouragement for the journey.

Because faith isn't always black and white. Sometimes faith is learned in color.

Thanks for pulling up a chair at Table for Two. If you enjoyed today's conversation, we'd love for you to join us on Facebook! It is where we share behind-the-scenes updates, chat with listeners, and keep the conversation going throughout the week. We'd love to see you there.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome back to Table for Two, the podcast where faith, family, and real life meet around the table.

SPEAKER_05 0:06

We're Jason and Nicole Barnett, and today we're talking about something that makes everyone uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

The color page.

SPEAKER_05 0:13

No, I like that.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Church board meetings?

SPEAKER_05 0:16

No.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Um. That's gotta be a strong possibility, though.

SPEAKER_05 0:22

Yeah, but today we're talking about what happens when life refuses to say black and white.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Ah, yeah, because we all like clear answers.

SPEAKER_05 0:29

Yep, we like heroes and we like villains.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Right and wrong.

SPEAKER_05 0:33

Good guys and bad guys.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

And then real life shows up.

SPEAKER_05 0:36

And suddenly things get really complicated.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

So today we're talking about grace, nuanced, difficult situations, and why following Jesus sometimes requires more wisdom than a simple rule book.

SPEAKER_05 0:49

So pull up a chair and join us as we get started. This is table for two.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Serving the chain down in a twins and chains. Last lines and calcans and holy routines. Love and face with the side of ice real talk.

SPEAKER_05 1:25

Well, before we jump into today's conversation, let's start with a question.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

And this is supposed to be a lighthearted question. And we'd love to hear from you. Um so please post your answers in the comment. You can follow us on Facebook, Table for Two Podcasts. It's Jason Nicole. Find us, put your answers in the comment with this episode. We'd love to hear what you have to say. But here's today's question: What is something you were absolutely convinced would be simple as an adult?

SPEAKER_05 1:52

That turned out to be a way more complicated thing than you ever expected.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Parenting.

SPEAKER_05 1:58

Marriage.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Homeownership.

SPEAKER_05 2:00

Church leadership.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Buying a vehicle. Buying insurance. Literally anything involving paperwork.

SPEAKER_05 2:07

So I'm gonna let you answer this first because my answer's really not that lighthearted.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Oh, I have like two or three.

SPEAKER_05 2:14

Okay, well, you go ahead and answer two or three.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Two or three. I'm just kidding. Um she's just in the motion for 6'7, but how have we not talked about the 6'7 phenomenon that struck the past year?

SPEAKER_05 2:29

But Okay, let's this is a buddy trail.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Okay, well, anyway, my answer is first off, cartoons and TV shows made me think it'd be way easier to get out speeding tickets than what it really is. Right?

SPEAKER_05 2:44

Like You thought it'd be easier to get out of speeding tickets.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

When they say paper, say rock or scissors, and you'd be able to drive off, you know, but it didn't work that way. You know, they pull you over and they don't really give you that many warnings. They're really you're kind of grouchy because they had to get out of their car and deal with you.

SPEAKER_03 3:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Because you were doing something wrong. I'm not saying anything negative about police officer, I'm just saying I've never experienced getting off the hook except for once when I was teaching a friend how to drive. Well, he was that terrible.

SPEAKER_03 3:13

Well, your wife has never been pulled over, so I don't understand the problem at all.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

Yeah. And while we're on the subject, I thought driving would be a lot easier. It's not that driving's difficult, it's that there are other people on the road. You know, and I used to always wonder, like, why would grown ups ever have to deal with have to deal with road rage? You know, why can't you just be nice and quiet and and then I started driving? Is it was it between here and Clay City 82?

SPEAKER_05 3:42

Yeah, I I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

I can't remember if I got the number wrong, people that live in Austin County you can correct me later. But whatever that road is between here and Clay City, it never fails.

SPEAKER_05 3:50

Somebody's always slow. Like they always like drive like 15 miles an hour under the speed limit, and it drives me nuts.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Yes. So I always thought being able to drive fast and get where you're going would be easy, and not and doing it with a nice, polite, Jesus-like attitude was not that hard. Turns out I've had to repent a lot of times because of driving.

SPEAKER_05 4:15

I feel like you lived in a fantasy world growing up.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

I did.

SPEAKER_05 4:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

So those are my two, I guess. I guess I had two and not three.

SPEAKER_05 4:23

Okay. Well, see, I don't relate to those because I don't really relate to any of it. I I never really thought anything was gonna be easy because childhood wasn't easy. So I I understood that things got immensely more complicated the older you got. Um I mean, yes, I wanted to grow up and and get out of the house and and leave my, you know, my problems behind, but I never really thought it was gonna be simple. I was actually very intimidated with adulthood.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Yeah. And Ben's kind of that way, our son, right now. He's like, can I just live with you forever? Because he doesn't really want to deal with the adult side of things.

SPEAKER_05 5:07

Now, I could flip, I could go on the flip side and say things that were a lot easier.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Yeah, why don't you do that? Tom.

SPEAKER_05 5:16

Um, believe it or not, college was a lot easier than I thought it would be. I I mean it I'm not saying it was easy, but like I again, I grew up in a very different environment. And um, I mean, like I I was my mom convinced me that I was not cut out for college, that I'd fail at everything. And and then I ended up getting pretty decent grades in college. Like my final year I slacked off a little bit, but up until that point, I was I was on track for honors. I didn't get honors though. No, that's because your husband was a bad influence on your yeah, you're whenever I said I didn't want to do anything, you're just like, well, then no. So there were a couple classes that I barely scraped by.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Yes. And that's my friends, is how I became a tutor. Not really. Nicole, you just got a text message. You might want to check it out.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

The following segment is not based on any real life events or happenings. The names are made up. Just like Kuzon Isn't way. The characters and names are not real, but the points might be.

SPEAKER_05 6:23

Here's the message, and apologies. That was very weird.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

I'm very weird, so yes, you are.

SPEAKER_05 6:29

Um, so the message is from Amber, and she says, Hey Nicole, I have an update on the Satan worshipper situation.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Pentagrams, I'm just kidding.

unknown 6:40

No.

SPEAKER_05 6:41

Um, first, Sadie and Madison are still not speaking. Second, Madison's mom and I decided we are we were going to fix this ourselves, which may have been our first mistake. For context, Madison's mom, Heather, and I have been friends since before either of our girls were born. We were pregnant at the same time. Our daughters have basically grown up together. So naturally, we decided to force a reconciliation. We took the girls out for ice cream. Heather and I thought they would apologize, hug, and become best friends again. Instead, they spent 30 minutes arguing about what was actually said. Sadie insists that she never called Madison a Satan worshiper. Madison, however, insists that's exactly what she meant. Neither one is willing to back down. At one point, Heather and I were apologizing to each other while our daughters were sitting there looking like tiny lawyers prepared for trial. The good news is that nobody cried, but the bad news is that nobody apologized either. Also, Linda says we're handling this wrong because children need consequences. Heather says they need space, and I think they just need a nap. I need help.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

Wow, what the pickle? Um, well, first off, these girls are 11, right?

SPEAKER_05 8:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Um but they really did hurt each other's feelings.

SPEAKER_05 8:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

I mean, Sadie called her a Satan worshiper, and because Masson really liked into this thing, and her best friend wasn't. Yeah. Well was, but then wasn't because now she thinks it's evil. Yeah. Um But I don't know. I feel like we've dealt with this situation before as youth pastors.

SPEAKER_03 8:28

Uh-huh. Where I was thinking the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

Yeah, where, you know, we've had students in our group before that now again, uh these groups we work with, some of them were 11, most of them were 12 up through high school, and then occasionally they wouldn't get along. Like one time we had a Super Bowl party, and two of our boys got in a fist fight. To this day, I all I know what happened was, and it had nothing to do with the game.

SPEAKER_03 8:51

No.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

But one boy showed the other boy his phone, and then the boy that looked at the phone started punching the other kid. So I knew what was ever on that phone probably had earned the right for this guy to um get a five-knuckle shuffle or two.

SPEAKER_04 9:08

And I I'm just gonna say it was kind of justified.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

Yeah, but you still shouldn't be fighting a teeth group.

SPEAKER_05 9:15

No, absolutely not. Um I know what was on that phone. And yeah, you would have punched him too. But what you would have if you had been 15 and and part, you know, in that age bracket, as a 30-year-old, we would not have punched a 15-year-old.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

But the way we handled that was both boys had to leave, right? And now we didn't have we had apologies. We we never kicked kids out of youth group, but they have to acknowledge that what they did was wrong.

SPEAKER_05 9:47

Apologize to all injured parties, apologize to the youth group. Yeah, and then they like come back.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

And thank and the parents backed us up and the boys apologized to move on.

SPEAKER_05 9:57

But they're before the evening was even over.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

Yeah, before the evening was over. But we also had a situation where two girls weren't getting along. And the mom called us and wanted us to fix it.

SPEAKER_05 10:08

How do you fix it?

SPEAKER_01 10:10

I th I said you know, we can't duct tape children together. That's frowned upon in society.

SPEAKER_05 10:16

Um the get-along shirt.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Yeah, you could do the get-along shirt. That doesn't work with your children. It's not gonna work with two kids that aren't yours and don't have to go home together.

SPEAKER_03 10:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Um but that's what that's really what we told the mom in in that situation was you can't for we can't force them to be friends. No, they're gonna have to do this on their own.

SPEAKER_05 10:35

Yeah. And the thing is, is it's a very real possibility they may never be friends again.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Or at least not to the same state that they were.

SPEAKER_05 10:42

Yeah. And we as adults, we need to be okay with that. Because the thing is, is we have friendships from our childhood that have either fizzled or at some point we we just realize that our differences were too great and we sep like we stopped being friends. Yeah, it's part of growing up. Um it's realizing that you the world isn't all sunshine and rainbows.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Yeah. And so kind of in this moment, I feel like both moms need to I I get that they're friends and they really want their daughters to be friends, but you can't force that to happen. No.

SPEAKER_05 11:21

Now you can you can talk to each girl and say, hey, you don't have to be friends, but you will be respectful toward one another. So that way it's not going to prevent, you know, Heather and Amber from getting getting together and hanging out. But it'll just mean that while they're hanging out, they're the two girls are doing two separate things.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

That's right. And think about it, as adults, if we don't want to hang out with somebody, if we don't want to make friends with somebody, we're not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_03 11:53

No.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

We're gonna avoid that person at all costs, we're gonna block them on Facebook, we're going to change our phone number. Yeah. We're gonna do all those things.

SPEAKER_05 12:00

And and I think it's really I I think it's a disservice to every child when we expect a child to behave in a way that we are unwilling to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

But and the other side of this thing too is again, that's not your relationship. No. You can't fix it.

SPEAKER_05 12:19

No.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

And you can't force them to fix it.

SPEAKER_05 12:21

No. And the thing is, is even if one of them does decide to apologize and move forward, it doesn't mean the other one's going to.

SPEAKER_06 12:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:30

Um, we had a similar situation recently where two young ladies we know ended up having a huge spat. And, you know, they've somewhat made up, but but one of the girls was like, you know, I mean, I like her, but I just don't feel the same way anymore.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Yeah. It changed. Yeah. The relationship has changed. Now it can heal, but again, it may not go back to the way it was, but it's definitely not if you're gonna you're trying to force it to happen.

SPEAKER_05 13:05

Yeah. Because the the walls are up, and so if all if you're gonna knock try to knock down those boundaries, it's just gonna cause more damage.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Yeah. And really, this is a situation where the mom with Amber and Heather are gonna have to let the girls do it themselves. Because it this is the other thing. We can't fix everything for our kids.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

No.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Our job, and and that that's not our job as parents to fix everything for them. Our job is to there are some things that we have to handle that they can't. Like if they're having you know, if they're legitimately having an issue with the teacher at school, we have to address that.

SPEAKER_06 13:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Or they they're dealing with a bully at school and the teachers aren't addressing. We need to help step in and help handle that part of the conversation.

SPEAKER_05 13:46

But the thing is, is even even in those situations, it doesn't fix it. It just we're just trying to figure out a way for them to be able to cope through it.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

Yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 13:58

Because a bully is going to be a bully until they get removed from the ability to bully.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

Exactly. But my my my point is again, we we we can't always just jump there there are situations where we have to go in and say something, but at the end of the day, our kids, we our main job is to equip them and release them. Right? We are tramp a child on a way they should go. Yeah. You're teaching them how to how to think and process through it themselves. And so that's kind of the this is that moment. All the things that Amber and Heather have been teaching their daughters to this point, they're gonna have to hope, pray, and be there to encourage the best they can, but without pressuring. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:37

And feel free to give advice on how to, you know, on how to at least get along.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:43

But you can't force them to be friends again.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

And you can help and the other thing you can be too is again so often, and we as adults do this. When someone disagrees with us or has a different point of view or makes us angry, we villainize them instantly and build up all the reasons why they're the bad guy and we're the good guy. And we know that's not true, and especially if it's somebody we love and care about, right? It's and as long as you're villainizing the other person, it's gonna be harder to love them and Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:13

But we do that because we don't want we don't want to admit that we might be partially wrong.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Yeah. And so that's where we just parents step in and help them to not villainize the other person.

SPEAKER_05 15:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Remind them of their humanity.

SPEAKER_05 15:28

And understand that there's a possibility that they m misunderstood what I said, misunderstood my intent. Maybe I said somet said it and I didn't mean it that way, so I misunderstood my own words.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:42

But but we need to we need to teach our children grace so they can extend grace.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Yeah. And at the end of the day, for grace to work, uh have its transforming power. We have to be humble to truly encounter it. And so right now, b both Sadie and Madison are not in a place to where they're ready to look at in the mirror.

SPEAKER_05 16:09

They they want to they want to be right. Both of them want to be right.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Yes, and so again, you can as a parent, you can do your best to point that out, but at the end of the day, you can't pressure them, you can't you can't force it to happen. You have to let it happen naturally. So, Nicole, if you were responding to Amber, how would you text her back?

SPEAKER_05 16:26

I would tell her you can't control your daughter's emotions, you can't control your daughter's friendships. Um at this point, it's best to let them work it out for themselves. Be let her know that, hey, you're there to give advice to help her walk through this, but that you know, that relationship isn't is completely out of your hands no matter how much you try to force it, and forcing it is actually just gonna do more damage. So I would ease off um and mainly talk about how they can coexist in the same space as opposed to fixing the relationship.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Relationships are messy.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Whether you're an adult, a teenager, a kid, relationships are just messy. And that's a that's a good segue to our main talking point today.

SPEAKER_05 17:24

Uh we like things black and white. That's right. We like when we're right, they're wrong. We like when they're the villain and we're the hero.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Yes. Because it it makes life easier, and we want to check off boxes and and things like that. Um But I think and we take that approach into scripture, read the Bible like we're looking for a checklist of this is what I'm supposed to do, this is what I'm supposed to do. Doesn't make sense to it.

SPEAKER_05 17:54

This is what I'm supposed to do, this is what I'm not supposed to do, and this is what I definitely can't do.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Right. And then we take that list that we made for ourselves out of the Bible, and we take it and we put it up on the wall and say, You gotta follow this too and point it to everybody. And we mess up, when they mess up, we treat them like a dog who just pee on the carpet and we rub their nose in it until they learn that their behavior is wrong and they change. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:17

That's that's what we do.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

But we've learned, even with dogs, that that's not a good strategy.

SPEAKER_05 18:24

Nope. They just end up peeing on your clean clothes.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Alright, you gotta tell that story.

SPEAKER_05 18:31

Okay, so when we first got our dog Hooter, um Jason was teaching him how to how to let us know that he needed to use the bathroom. Well, apparently the way he was letting us know was by going to the front door and waiting.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Not me, the dog.

unknown 18:49

The dog.

SPEAKER_05 18:52

And um, anyway, so so this dog, he's like, what, it's like 12 weeks at this point. Like he's pretty young. Um, he goes to the door, Jason's in the living room right by the door, and and this dog is not being acknowledged whatsoever. So he runs into the office where I'm working because I'm working on school work. And and I'm just like, Jason, the dog needs to get out because I'm more I'm working. And uh, and so the dog runs back to the front door, back to my office, back to the front door, back to my office. Jason gets irritated and shouts at him, stop running around. And the dog comes back into my office, and I had just finished folding some laundry right before I started working on schoolwork, and I had piles of clean clothes on the floor that I just again folded. And the dog sniffs each of those piles, finds Jason's pile of clothes, and pees all over it.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Yep. So he let me know. So, in that case, it was a very messy relationship that I have with Hoosier. We still have Hoosier. He's such a good boy, he is a good boy.

SPEAKER_05 20:03

Sorry. That pit, though, like that was a very yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

But the problem is when we take that approach to scripture, we cause a lot more damage and we confuse ourselves and we confuse a lot of other people. Because again, the issue is you're trying to take a black and white understanding into a world that's full of color.

SPEAKER_05 20:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

Full of color. Um and actually the Bible isn't black and white either. There are some sections, like you know, the Ten Commandments, it tells us Yeah, but I was even just thinking about that.

SPEAKER_05 20:37

Like, they're not as black and white as we want to think. Like, honor your father and mother seems pretty black and white, but honoring your father and mother is very different depending on what culture you're from, how your parents like how they treat you. Like, honoring an abusive parent is a lot different than honoring a parent that treats you as a cherished member of their family. You're still required to honor both, but they look very different.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 21:08

Um, so so again, it's not as black and white as we want to make it think, as we want to think. Belt shall not steal. Yeah, don't take anything that doesn't belong to you. But like, how often are we taking things that, you know, maybe we haven't earned even though they're being handed to us?

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Right. Or, you know, too, you're overlooking the fact that a system is set up where it's so broken that a person can't get food. Yeah. And so out of desperation, out of their the dignity of their humanity being ignored.

SPEAKER_05 21:40

Is it really so wrong for them to steal something to eat?

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Yeah. Is it still stealing? Yes. However, the bigger issue is their need is being not being met. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_05 21:52

So And then um honoring the Sabbath another is another one that's very like again, like some people view it as so black and white. You know, we don't work on Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

We don't day of the week I work.

SPEAKER_05 22:04

But well, actually, here's the thing like that is so highly obeyed in Israel that like um my youth pastor went to Israel when I was in youth group, and he told us like they have schedules on everything from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday when you know during the Sabbath. So that way nobody um pushes any buttons and nobody walks too far. Like they have like markers indicating how far you can go on the Sabbath from certain destinations. They um you don't press buttons, you don't switch on a light because everything's on a schedule, and it's it's so strict because they view it as so black and white, you cannot do any work on the Sabbath. But everybody does work on the Sabbath, even when you don't think about it. I mean, how many parents are actually are still changing their kids' diapers on the Sabbath? Like they kind of have to. They are not gonna sit leave their infant child. I hope not, anyways. Um but but the point of the Sabbath isn't about honoring a specific day, it's about taking time to rest because we are human and we will burn out if we are not taking some time.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

Right. Yeah. And the other issue is too, when you live in a world that's based on black and white understandings, you're operating from a world that's based on power, not on love. Right? And holiness, holiness has power involved, but holiness is not the central component, or power is not the whole central component of holiness. Love is the central element of love, right? And the love of God is always grace and truth. It's always both, it's not one or the other. Yeah. But again, like if you read the story of creation, right, and I've seen this recently where somebody was talking about how the story of creation, but when mankind was created, it was about the power they obtained over creation. But and there's an element of that, right, where they were set to be stewards of the earth. But the very first act in the Bible teaches us something about power. The God who is all powerful and almighty doesn't use his power to exert his power and authority and his sovereignty. What does the God do with that power? He leveling decides to create with it.

SPEAKER_05 24:31

And then he empowers what he created. Yes. Like he builds up others. That's what we do. That's what the power we have is for. It's not for enforcing our will over somebody else, it's for building them up. So they they are lifted. Yeah, they are encouraged.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Yeah. So when we go into our Bible reading and our study of the Bible looking for a black and white list of what I do and what I don't do, that's not holiness.

SPEAKER_03 25:00

No.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

Holiness is not hate behavior. Holiness is a state of being. Holiness is a state that is so infatuated in love with God that it doesn't matter what the consequences are. It's gonna do it because it makes God happy.

SPEAKER_06 25:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

And that includes so makes God happy. It's loving God and loving your neighbor.

SPEAKER_06 25:19

Right?

SPEAKER_01 25:20

And so it's not, it's not about the consequences, then it's not about how close to the line you can get before it's really a sin and when it's not. And that's actually what Jesus gets after in the Sermon of the Mount. It's not about the behavior, it's about the attitude, right? He talks about in Matthew 5, I think it is, he says, You've heard it said to you, whoever commits a, you know, commits adultery. He talks about committing adultery.

SPEAKER_05 25:43

But I tell you the truth that even if you look at a woman lustfully, you've committed adultery with her in your heart. Yes. And that indicates that it's about a heart state, a heart attitude. Yes. Um, and and he he even says, like, uh, you've also heard it said, you shall not murder, but if you even hate your brother, if you are angry with your brother, yeah, you are in danger of the fires of hell because it's about your heart. And if your heart is full of hatred and resentment and anger towards somebody, you may as well have killed them because you're you're wishing harm on them.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Yeah. That brings you some type of sick pleasure. Now, think about if we were to take that passage and apply it in a black and white situation, that means then um I'm not supposed to look at a woman lust, but that means whenever I'm around a woman, I shouldn't look at her or I should look, I should look down at the ground, or I look past her, or there are people that view it like that. But then you're kind of devaluing her as a person in the conversation.

SPEAKER_05 26:43

Because all she now is is an object for you to lust at.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Yeah, and that's not who she is. No. Women are partners in life. God created them male and female, right? And and male and female, he created them. So he created us to work together in partnership. You can't work in partnership if you view the other one of the partners views the other one as a object to play with.

SPEAKER_06 27:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

Um so that's what happens though when we put things in a black and white situation, it becomes it flows out of an idea of who's got power and who doesn't. But if you are operating from holiness and understanding that holiness is rooted in love, it changes everything. Um now, Paul Paul deals with this when he's dealing with the Corinthian church. You know, that for the the Corinth, the church at Corinth, it was a church that needed the DS. Like I they be they'd be calling DS Wyatt in there. And D.S. Wyatt be coming in there with his iron-fisted approach and you know, smacking heads together.

SPEAKER_03 27:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

That's not how he does it, but that was fun to talk about.

SPEAKER_05 27:50

Yeah. Um but but basically, a little bit of explanation in uh 1 Corinthians 8 and 10, like Paul is talking about the situation in the church in Corinth where they're arguing about whether or not they should eat food sacrificed to idols. Because in old in the Old Testament, they were not allowed to eat food sacrificed to idols because it was sacrificed to idols, it was made unclean, it was it was impure. Um, but some people in Corinth were like, hey, no, like the idol's a f not even real. Like it's not a it's not a real God, so how does it make food un or impure? I can I can eat this, it's not gonna harm my salvation. Like I trust in Jesus, not this idol. And then other people were like, no, the you know, the scriptures say we can't eat this, and and if we do, then we are dishonoring God.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Yeah, and I keep in mind too that the disciples had just had a big meeting in Jerusalem about this, and like because it because the Gentiles had gotten filled with the Spirit, right? And they didn't know what to do. So they called the big board meeting.

SPEAKER_05 29:01

And whenever the spirit moves, a board meeting has to be.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

It has to be called so we can figure out what it means. But one of the things they had said in that meeting was, you know, it wasn't that the Gentiles didn't have to be sent the um circumcised, but they had to abstain eating food sacrificed to idols. But in Corinth, the issue was most of the meat sold in the town had been sacrificed to idols by idols somewhere.

SPEAKER_05 29:27

So it was either go vegan or go home.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

And so again, it depended on there was an issue here. Um but now Paul Paul doesn't answer with, well, you should always eat it. And nor does he answer with you should never eat it.

unknown 29:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Paul doesn't go either of those answers. Yeah. He doesn't give him a black and white approach.

SPEAKER_05 29:47

Yeah. In fact, he says, All things are permiss or all things are lawful, not all things are profitable. And then he launches into a statement of if you are if you feel free to eat food sacrificed to idols, eat. Not a big deal. If you feel like you cannot eat food sacrificed to idols because your convictions say, don't do it, don't do it because that is a direct violation to what you believe God is saying. Don't do it. But for the people who are free, he says, Don't eat if it's going to cause your brother to stuff stumble.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

That's right.

SPEAKER_05 30:27

And and then he also make he also flips it around and is like, the people who who are you know still following this rule, don't look down on the people who are eating because they feel free to do so.

SPEAKER_06 30:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:41

Um, but the main thing is not being a stumbling block to somebody else, not causing somebody else to question their faith, not causing somebody else to fall into sin, and not not making somebody else feel guilty for expressing their freedom.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Right. So the real the issue, Paul's pointing out, the issue isn't the meat. The meat's not the problem. The meat, the the the meat has nothing, the the meat is the object being discussed, but the real issue underneath it all is love. Do you love God and do you love the other person enough to not cause them to stumble?

SPEAKER_06 31:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

That's the issue. Uh be respectful of each other is what it boils down to.

SPEAKER_06 31:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

Um there's some other examples of this in scripture. You know, um, so remember, Jesus catches a woman in adultery.

unknown 31:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Right? And when it says she caught her in adultery, or she was caught in adultery. Understand what that means.

SPEAKER_05 31:42

She was caught in the physical act of committing adultery. She was likely being thrown into the street with maybe a blanket, maybe a shawl, maybe something like barely covered. Likely.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

So and and we know it comes with a certain smell attached to it.

SPEAKER_05 32:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Right?

SPEAKER_05 32:02

And and now again, now we can catch people in adultery via text messages and photographs and things. No, they actually had to catch you in bed.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:14

In the act.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

And so she's dragged into the streets, right, by the religious leaders, and they bring her to Jesus and say, you know, and they quote scripture to Jesus. Right. Yeah. And keep in mind, Jesus is the same, is yes, Jesus is human, but he's also the same God that wrote the words, and he He knows exactly He's like don't cite the dark magic to me, which I was there before it was created. That's a weird way to put those two things together.

SPEAKER_03 32:42

Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Anyway.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

Um ADHD.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

But But Jesus, they quoted it, Jesus, like we the law says we're supposed to stone people caught in adultery.

SPEAKER_05 32:54

But he knows the heart behind it. He knows his intention for making that the law.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:03

And and so he points it, he points it out, and he's like, hey, anyone who's without sin, go ahead. Throw a stone at him.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

Your sin, do it, yeah. Pick it up. Go ahead, throw that rock if you don't have any sin in your life.

SPEAKER_05 33:19

Yeah. Because guess what? It's all the same.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

And so we we know from the story they all drop the rocks and walk away.

SPEAKER_05 33:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

And then it's just the Jesus and the woman standing there.

SPEAKER_05 33:32

But Jesus doesn't let her off completely scot-free.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

No.

SPEAKER_05 33:37

He demands change.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

That's right.

SPEAKER_05 33:41

And he says, I'm not condemning you. Go and sin no more.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 33:49

Now, again, no condemnation. But there's a demand for change.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Yes. And so that that lady, but he he demanded the change, but he had already given the grace, and he was extending the grace beyond the situation. So that way she knew. She knew she was off the hook. Yeah. He let her experience the love because love is what transforms us. It's it's by faith that you're saved. It's by faith that you are given the power of the Holy Spirit and sanctified. And that's what changes you.

SPEAKER_05 34:26

Yeah. Actually, that reminded me of the song Roll Away Your St Roll Away the Your Stone by Mumford and Sons.

SPEAKER_06 34:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:32

There's a line in there, and it's powerful, and it says, It's not the long walk home that will change this heart, but the welcome I receive with the restart. And that's what Jesus did, is like this woman was caught in the act of adultery. It wasn't the act of her being caught that changed her. It was the grace that Jesus gave her. And then the call for her to step into that grace and live like she was forgiven. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

So that's that's one story. That's that's with Jesus, right? Yeah. Jesus knew what the scripture said.

SPEAKER_06 35:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

But he took it and he pointed out something else about it. It was a black and white situation where again the sin was judged, but not in the it didn't have the outcome that anybody expected. Um another example is Paul and Barnabas with John Mark.

SPEAKER_05 35:30

Yeah. Okay, so explanation here. John Mark uh served with Paul and Barnabas at one point, but bef but he ended up like ditching Paul and Barnabas because he got homesick. And so he he ran home to his mom.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

And his mom was boy.

SPEAKER_05 35:52

And he and Paul was furious, and he he was mad. And talk about a relationship where there where there was really no, like, there we're not going back. Like this is not going back to normal. Um well Paul was upset, and rightfully so. He ditched him when they needed him, and uh well a while later, Mark wants to join with them again, and Barnabas is like, yeah, join us, and Paul's like, no, no, we're not doing that. And then Paul and Barnabas get into a big old fight to the point that they actually stop ministering together, they go their separate ways. Barnabas takes John Mark and Paul gets Silas. Yes, and they they go their separate ways, they're both angry, upset, frustrated with each other. Both of them are trying to serve gods, trying to love people for Jesus, and yet they are they have this unre irreconcilable difference that is just not going to like they're not gonna jive.

SPEAKER_06 37:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:11

And so they separate. Yeah. But they both end up doing so many amazing things for Jesus. Yeah, that was a very messy situation, a very not black and white situation that turned out to be a you know, it turned out to be a great thing because Mark went off Barnabas forgiving Mark and bringing him back and and and and discipling him ended up causing Mark to become, you know, an asset to Paul later on.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

Yeah, Paul writes later on asking that the same John Mark come to him because he could use him.

unknown 37:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 37:51

And and Silas is then raised up and and serves under Paul for uh or alongside Paul for a long time. And and God worked.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Yeah, and too, you see the difference in the character of the two men in the situation, too. Because remember, Barnabas took a chance on Paul.

SPEAKER_05 38:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

Nobody else wanted Paul, other than Anonymous, because the Holy Spirit told him everybody else was a little scared of Paul for good reasons.

SPEAKER_05 38:17

Paul had killed a bunch of Christians.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

So, but Barnabas takes a chance. Now he fast forward to this situation, and Barnabas is still Barnabas, he's still that guy who's like, no, we're gonna love this person, we're gonna give him a chance. But Paul's like, listen, I'm going into these deep, terrible places trying to preach Jesus. I don't have time for mama's boy who's gonna run home every time things get hard. Or he gets homesick, right? He wants mama's home, biscuits and gravy and runs home. I don't got time for this. And so you see the character of both men, and and in some ways the argument's valid, right? Like, I don't want to go. I I I told this church all the time, I was like, I'd rather go, I'd rather worship with 15 people that are want to be there and want to praise Jesus and and work for Jesus than have a room full of people that are just there to be there because it's the right thing to do.

SPEAKER_05 39:06

Bench warmers.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Yeah. At the same time, too, also understand Barnabas because Barnabas is like, look, this guy, he he's he's young, he made a mistake. He needs disciples.

SPEAKER_05 39:17

We've all been there.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:19

Where we've all done something stupid.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

And but sometimes that's the beauty of God, uh the body of Christ, too, because when one person is like, I and rightfully so, I I don't have time to slow down and deal with this situation. Or I can't deal with this situation because of things going on in my life. But there then that doesn't mean that person needs to be left behind that needs to be discipled. There's always somebody else that can come in and work alongside it.

SPEAKER_05 39:45

And and at the same time, like it does teach accountability to have that tough love, but having somebody else there to show you unconditional grace is also necessary because it it like it they kind of balance each other out.

SPEAKER_01 40:01

Yeah.

unknown 40:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:03

So we're gonna come to situations in life that aren't black and white. No. And that you can't look at the Bible and say, quote, what we can quote scriptures of for encouragement and for guidance, and but even then sometimes what's applicable in one situation is not gonna be applicable in another one.

SPEAKER_04 40:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

When a teenager is dealing with cutting, right? It's you could take away all their devices, you could take get them away from all the things that are harming them. I don't know where I was going with this.

SPEAKER_05 40:37

But it might not solve the issue for that one, but it might solve it for another, because maybe the reason they're cutting, maybe they're maybe the reason they're dealing with depression is because of something that's being said online. Um, but maybe there's a different like we don't know.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

Yeah. And only God knows the heart.

SPEAKER_05 40:56

Yeah. And I mean, like, everybody is different. Every we we were talking to Ben's psychiatrist today, where she's talking about ADHD and how it presents so different in one person versus another. Everybody is different. Some kids with ADHD will act out and be disruptive and and defiant and and everything, and other ones are just they zone out and they don't they don't really listen that well. And so you have to treat just like you have to treat ADHD differently, you have to treat every situation as its own situation because it's not a repeat of something else.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

Yeah. And so the issue is, and this is something that's really a problem in our society right now, is because we look at everything through a black and white lens.

SPEAKER_05 41:50

Everything's very binary.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

Yeah, so you either you're either a good guy or you're a bad guy.

SPEAKER_05 41:56

You're either a Republican or a Democrat, you're a you're you're a Christian or you're or you're, you know, a Satanist.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

Well, yeah. It's like you're either you're either with me or you're against me. And so like has us constantly fighting at each other's throats. But I'm gonna quote a theologian here. My name is my name is I'm a person, and my name is Anakin. Right? Like, you're both people. God created you with for human dignity and respect. Just because you've dealt with something doesn't mean the other person's dealt with it. Just because you because you see the situation somewhat one way doesn't mean they see it one way. And then just because you're different doesn't mean one of you is going to heaven and one of you is going to hell. Right? Not every issue is a matter of sin. Yes, sin is a matter of life and death, but not every not every situation we encounter as Christian is a sin or not sin matter.

SPEAKER_05 42:54

Sometimes it's just a life sucks matter.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

Let's let's navigate how to navigate this. And don't look at somebody else and say, I would never do that. But well, you don't know that because you're not in their shoes.

SPEAKER_05 43:04

And the second you say you're never gonna you'd never do that, then you go on nevering like you never never before.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

Yeah, that there is a difference between conviction and arrogance. Right? You can have your convictions, you can feel strongly about those things. But don't just assume, but when you start assuming that because you Because it's your conviction that it's right, and everybody else has to do it, that's arrogance.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:31

And that everybody else who doesn't do it your way or see it your way is going to hell. When you develop that attitude, that is not of God. That's that's something else. And so we have to learn to say, I might be wrong. Or even because God gives us free will and lets us choose to be wrong, even if the other person is wrong, let them choose to be wrong and love them anyway.

SPEAKER_05 43:54

Yeah. I mean, novel idea loving people, loving our enemies. Isn't that Jesus called us to after all.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:02

I mean, we get so caught up in being right.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

Yes. But it's not always about winning.

SPEAKER_05 44:13

And and the thing is, you may be right morally and wrong in how you're executing your your own correctness.

SPEAKER_01 44:28

Yes. And therefore that makes what you're right about wrong.

SPEAKER_05 44:32

Absolutely. Actually, um, I I saw I watched an episode of Ghosts. It it's a horrible show. I'm just gonna say it, but but um there's a there's an ep this particular episode that I watched. There was a a Viking ghost, and he was um he and his girlfriend got in a fight, and she's this like vegan hippie, and and he had he gotten this like leather chair, and he's like, this is what we're having this in our space. And and she's like, no, we're not, and and he and he ended up like winning the fight and and convincing her to keep their the leather chair in the space, but she like stopped talking to him. And and one of the other one of the other ghosts was like, you know, you've you may have won the fight, but you've lost the war. Because you might have you might have proven that you are correct. This this leather chair really isn't that big of a deal, but it was to her. And now she doesn't want to talk to you. And what's more important here? Being right or loving her?

SPEAKER_01 45:52

That's right.

SPEAKER_05 45:52

And that's the question we need to ask ourselves. What's more important, being right or loving people for Jesus?

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Because no matter how much we want to, we can't force people to see it our way.

SPEAKER_05 46:02

No.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

Now, there are some things with all this talk of not things being not thinking not being colorless, like it's full of color. There are some things that stay black and white, then this is important.

SPEAKER_06 46:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

Jesus is Lord.

SPEAKER_05 46:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

There's no one besides him, he has no rival, he has no equal. That's that's that's true. He's the way, the truth, and love. There's there's that's black and white. That's solid. The command to love God, that's black and white. Yes. You shall have no other gods but me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:38

100%. There's no there's no gray in that in that statement.

SPEAKER_01 46:43

Yes. Uh you got you have to love your neighbor.

SPEAKER_05 46:46

Yeah. News flash. You can't love God and hate people. Because God loves those people that you're hating. And and if we love him, we are going to love his creation.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

And if you notice too, neighbor here is a broad term. It's Mr. Rogers' de Mr. Rogers' definition of everybody is your neighbor.

SPEAKER_05 47:06

Everybody you see is your neighbor.

SPEAKER_01 47:09

So you have to love them.

SPEAKER_05 47:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 47:11

That's that stays black and white. Grace matters. Truth matters. People matter. Those things are black and white. Those don't change. But everything else requires wisdom. Wisdom that is humble enough to say I might be wrong.

SPEAKER_05 47:31

And even if I am correct, I need to love that person where they are.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

Yeah.

unknown 47:38

So.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

Um. Faith is not colorless, it's not always black and white.

SPEAKER_05 47:45

Sometimes following Jesus means simply walking through the gray areas with humility, wisdom, grace, and above all love.

SPEAKER_01 47:54

Yes. And often the people who need grace most are the same people we're tempted to write off, including ourselves.

SPEAKER_05 48:00

Especially ourselves sometimes. So thanks for joining us for another episode of Table for Two.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

And so until next time.

SPEAKER_05 48:08

Grace and peace to you.

SPEAKER_02 48:15

Our life's held together by grace and a few hugs. Stay set, cheese up, miss we said. Not about ladder since we and you. Serving the kingdom and eight was anti. Last lines and calists and holy routine. Pull up for table table for two. Love and face with the side of the face, will talk to awkward pause.

SPEAKER_05 48:43

Before we jump into the today.