Love Looks Like This?

Children are always learning, but not always from what we say.

In this episode of Table for Two, Jason and Nicole explore how children form their understanding of love, grace, forgiveness, faith, and even God through the adults around them. Parents play a vital role, but they are not the only influence. Teachers, coaches, pastors, Sunday school volunteers, grandparents, and ordinary church members often leave lasting impressions that shape a child's spiritual journey.

Through personal stories, ministry experiences, and honest conversation, Jason and Nicole discuss why children often notice our actions more than our words, how faith is modeled in everyday life, and what happens when the example we set does not match the message we preach.

Along the way, they tackle questions about hypocrisy, emotional safety, Christian discipleship, church culture, parenting, and the power of simple acts of kindness.

They also revisit the ongoing fictional text-message saga involving Amber, Sadie, Linda, and Frank, where a tense lunch conversation leads to an important lesson about being right, being kind, and what children learn from the adults they trust.

Whether you're a parent, grandparent, teacher, pastor, children's ministry worker, youth leader, or simply someone who wants to reflect Christ more faithfully, this conversation will challenge you to consider what your life is teaching the next generation.

Pull up a chair and join the conversation.

Topics include:
• Christian parenting
• Faith formation in children
• Family discipleship
• Children's ministry
• Church culture
• Christian leadership
• Spiritual influence
• Grandparents and faith
• Emotional safety
• Living out your faith

Thanks for pulling up a chair at Table for Two. If you enjoyed today's conversation, we'd love for you to join us on Facebook! It is where we share behind-the-scenes updates, chat with listeners, and keep the conversation going throughout the week. We'd love to see you there.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome back to Table for Two, the podcast where faith, family, and real life meet around the table.

SPEAKER_04 0:06

We're Jason and Nicole Barnett, and today we're talking about one of the most powerful influences in a child's life.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

And no, it's not social media.

SPEAKER_04 0:15

And it's not their teachers.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

It's not even the church.

SPEAKER_04 0:19

Although, I mean, those influences matter.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Yes. But today we're talking about the adults children watch every single day.

SPEAKER_04 0:27

Because whether we realize it or not, or even want them to or not, children are watching everything we do.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

And they are learning what love looks like from us.

SPEAKER_04 0:39

And what forgiveness looks like.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

What conflict looks like.

SPEAKER_04 0:43

And for many children, they're learning what God looks like.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

So pull up a chair and join us as we get started. This is table for two.

SPEAKER_03 0:55

Church keys in hand, copying mugs. Our life held together by grace and a few hugs. Stay set, cheese, stop mixed. We said boo-doo. It's not about ladders, it's me and you. Serving the kingdom in eight ones and cheese. Last lines and calistans in holy routine. At this table for two, there's room for you.

SPEAKER_04 1:24

Now, before we jump into today's conversation, let's start with a question.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

And we would love to hear your answers on the and you can do that. Give us your answers on the table for two Facebook page. Is that what it's called? The Facebook page.

SPEAKER_04 1:37

Yes. Um, but today's question is what is a phrase your parents used that you promised you would never say, but now comes out of your mouth very regularly.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Yeah, you know exactly the one.

SPEAKER_04 1:52

The the phrase that used to make your eyes roll as a kid.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

And now suddenly you're saying it to your own child. So what about you? Well, mine's not so much a phrase, like a phrase I commonly heard because I was always getting hurt. Like when I learned to ride my bicycle, I remember we were living with my grandparents, and my grandpa had just put his mailbox up. Like he had just you know poured put the post in, poured the concrete. Yeah. Got it stable enough to stand up, you know, to remove the boards, and then they turned me loose. But my dad didn't believe in teaching me to ride a bike with training wheels. So he just turned me loose on two wheels. And well, day one, I dented the mailbox with my face. Um, again, that's like one of my earliest memories. Like that was one of my earliest memories. So I don't know how old I was. I wasn't in kindergarten yet, so um, but I do remember, oh, you're fine, suck it up, walk it off. You know, you're you're good. You know, the things we typically say to boys when they fall down.

SPEAKER_04 2:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

I mean, you might say it to girls too, but I can't speak to the feminine experience. I can only speak to guys where we're supposed to be manly and not cry and suck it up and deal with things. But that being said, again, I didn't use this phrase with Ben. I kind of just applied it without ever saying it, though. So, like one time we were when we were pastoring in um Greensburg. Green Green Greensburg, Kentucky, they have a really nice park there. Several different playgrounds you can take to play your kid on. At least they used to. Don't know if they still do. But we were playing on the one like that's kind of over in middle in the middle of the ball diamonds, like a smaller equipment. Our kids were a little younger, so we've we felt more comfortable with that because if they they fell.

SPEAKER_04 3:39

They weren't gonna fall and break their face, they were gonna fall and get a couple bruises.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Yeah, and sure enough, that's what happened to Ben. And keeping in Ben's like four, maybe five. Um no, I think he was No, he was definitely four or five. Because I can't remember if he was preschool or kindergarten, but it was one of those two. But he fell off the playground equipment and he hurt his leg.

SPEAKER_04 4:00

Now, think again, there's wood chips on the ground, so it wasn't He didn't like break anything, he didn't even sprain anything, he just landed hard on his knee.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Yeah. And so he gets up, he's crying. It's one of the situations apparent, like you can tell the kids really f fine. They're either they're crying because either they're embarrassed or it scared them, you know. Um, or they're tired.

SPEAKER_04 4:19

Or they're I think it was all three for him. Yeah. Or all four.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Yeah, it could have been all four of those things. But anyway, he was crying. And so again, I didn't say, look at him and say, you know, you're okay. You're okay, you're fine, walk it off. I just said, well, you know, you you know, let's just let's check and see how bad it hurts. So many to do that, why don't you walk from here to the fence and back? And that was like a good like 50 yards. And so he's like kind of crying, but then he walks like there's not even a limp or not even not even an act, you know, he doesn't even put on a play act for me. He just walks like normal from the where he fell off the playground at to the fence and back, and he was just fine. But I remember thinking, man, that was kind of mean.

SPEAKER_04 5:00

So yeah. Well, mine I I can't say I heard this a lot from my parents growing up because whenever I asked a question, it was always a very firm yes or no, I could do that or I can't do that. Um whenever I would ask my mom something. But I heard it a lot from my friend's parents, and it was go ask your father. And I remember my friends and I all being very irritated with that question or with that response because it was like, you know, you're a parent too. Can't you can't you give me this answer? And I've I've kind of realized the reason why I do it is not because I can't make a decision on my own with the kids, but it's I want I want to make sure that Jason and I are on the same page. Right. And so I'm that's usually me granting permission as long as it's okay with you.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Jason.

SPEAKER_04 6:06

Yeah. So if they hear go ask your father, they know that all they have to do is convince dad. But the problem that they face is when he says, Go ask your mother.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Yeah, and so they end up sometimes they get caught in the uh circle.

SPEAKER_04 6:20

But when we know that the other parent has given permission, then we're like, okay, yeah, we can do this.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

And now let's say one of us does grant permission without the other one knowing it. We the other one usually backs the other one up unless there's something unforeseen.

SPEAKER_04 6:33

Yeah, like, or like maybe we didn't communicate about, well, somebody's supposed to have a consequence for misbehavior, and you know, I've already I've already told them that they can't go play at their friend's house or whatever, and and then they go and ask dad.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:52

Can I go play at my friend's house?

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Yeah, usually if there's consequences involved when they do it, then there's more consequences involved later.

SPEAKER_04 6:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

But anyway, also the downside is their their parents are the pastors of the church, so if they do anything while we're up front, we see them. But we are pretty cool because we don't like we'll correct them minorly, but the real correction comes after the service is over because we don't want to embarrass them in front of the whole church. But anyway, um we'd again we'd love to hear some of your answers to this question. You know, you you know, some examples of maybe things you have heard. Like my dad we used to say to us, you make a terrible window. And when he said that, he implied that we were standing in front of the TV and he couldn't see what he was watching.

SPEAKER_05 7:30

I can't remember hearing.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Um or maybe it was because I said so, or money doesn't grow on trees, or don't do it. Were you born in a barn?

SPEAKER_04 7:37

I do say that a lot, but I I embrace that one. I am not.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

What was it for you and how do you use it? We'd love to hear that in the comments. Nicole, you just got a text message. You might want to check it out.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

The following segment is not based on any real life events or happenings. The names are made up. Just like Kuza Isn't we? The characters and names are not real, but the points might be.

SPEAKER_04 8:03

That that sound bit always creeps me out, Jason. I'm just gonna say it. Do I creep? Yes, you do. Okay, so just a friendly reminder, again, even though that creepy voice said it already, this story is fictional. These characters are fictional, but and you know, the conversation is fictional, but the point is very real.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Yeah, it's it might be something that's very helpful.

SPEAKER_04 8:28

Yeah. So here is today's quote unquote text message. And it says, Hey Nicole, I think Sadie may have had her first big grown-up hypocrisy moment. And honestly, I'm not sure what to do with it. We went out to lunch after church with Linda and Frank on Sunday. Everything was fine until our waitress forgot a side dish and brought the wrong drink. Oh no. Poor waitress. It wasn't a huge deal. She looked young and honestly seemed overwhelmed, but Frank spent the rest of the meal complaining. He kept saying things like, Nobody wants to work anymore, and this generation doesn't know responsibility. The waitress looked embarrassed every time she came to the table. On the drive home, Sadie was very quiet. She finally asked me why was grandpa being so mean to the waitress. I told her I didn't think grandpa was trying to be mean, but then she asked, But if I wasn't trying to be mean to Madison, why did everyone say I hurt her feelings? And honestly, I didn't know what to say. Now she's asking me questions about being right, being kind, and why adults don't always have to practice what they preach. Help.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

All right, now if you're new to this segment and this doesn't make sense, you are missing part of the backstory. Um, but stick around and the point I think will still make sense without the rest of it.

SPEAKER_04 9:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

But I encourage you to go back and watch some previous episodes to get kind of caught up with where we are in the storyline. But um, I guess what stands out to you first about this?

SPEAKER_04 10:04

Like first off, whether Grandpa was trying to be mean or not, he was being mean.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Yeah, he's being rude.

SPEAKER_04 10:11

I have that is a pet peeve of mine. When I go to a restaurant and I see people mistreating the staff, I am angry on behalf of the staff. Yes, like that that person that's chewing out the staff, complaining about the staff, like they don't want to run into ginger me. Like, I I I will let them have it.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Yeah. Memorize this phrase in your brain. I think all Christians need to memorize in their brains, but if you're listening to this, memorize this. Don't be singing Amazing Grace and then going out to the restaurant saying, My server is such a disgrace. Right? Don't do it. Like, yeah, you there is no point in your Christian walk with Jesus that it is okay to flip off the love switch.

SPEAKER_05 10:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

Love is always turned on.

SPEAKER_05 10:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Especially when you're out to eat. I I I I I I challenge you sometime when you go out to eat on a Sunday, ask your waiter or waiter, waitress, ask your server how Has everyone been nice to you. And you will see the cringe and the fear in their eyes.

unknown 11:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

And that will tell you no. And who are the people that tend to eat out the most on Sundays?

SPEAKER_04 11:21

Church people.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Church people.

SPEAKER_04 11:23

And I'm gonna tell you right now, um, actually, I think it was last year, or it might have been the year before, District Assembly. We went out, um, it was like the Sunday night of District Assembly. We went out and we went to Texas Roadhouse, I think it was, and I asked the hostess if people had been nice to her, and she burst into tears. And so I just asked her right then and there, can I pray, can I pray for you right here? And I so I prayed for her. Um, she gave me permission, but I prayed for her, and then like I made sure that I like I didn't we didn't just hand a tip to the waitress, we handed a tip to the hostess as well because she needed it, and but like we don't have to be mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

So again, I I get being frustrated. Like, I'm uh I can understand Frank, who I'm forever gonna picture as Frank Burns now the mash. But I picture Frank, I I get his frustration. Like you order a side dish, you order a beverage, and you get the wrong one shows up. It happens. But mistakes happen.

SPEAKER_04 12:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

The way the server already feels terrible, the staff already feels terrible. They don't need you to they heap more guilt upon them in this situation.

SPEAKER_05 12:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:37

Um I mean, how we've gone out to eat a few times in the last month. And I always get like the sirloin special, like you know, the $13.99 sirloin. And all three times I have asked for medium because I I like my I I don't like my meat well done. I it's it's just not good.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

I like I'm like Smeagol.

SPEAKER_04 13:06

Yeah, go to him raw and wriggling. Yes. But me, like I like it somewhat cooked, but I don't like medium is about the max. And all three times I've they've handed me a steak that's been well done. Like cooked well done. And I'll I'll cut into it and they'll ask me, and I'll be like, well, it's more more well done than I like. And then they'll be like, hey, well, do you want us to take it back? And I I just like no, it's okay. I will eat this. I'm not picky, I know it, you know, but but I I'm trying not to make more work. And yes, I'm telling them that I'm not happy necessarily with it, but I'm also not being a jerk about it, and I'm I'm accepting it, and I'm just like, okay, you know, because they don't need to deal with that extra work. They don't, I mean, I'm not saying that you don't have to send like you shouldn't send stuff back. That's just my personal choice.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:00

But if you do send it back, be kind.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 14:03

Stop being a jerk.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Yeah. You can you can fix things without being a jerk about it. Yeah. And now that's the other side of this too. Like, not only does Frank attack this one server, he then lumps all of her generation into one category saying, Well, no one wants to work, and it's just not like it used to be. Well, maybe it's not like it used to be because they have to deal with jerks like you on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_04 14:29

Like You can't pay me enough to deal with a Frank Burns.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Yeah, like they realize these are people most of the time, they're they're either working a second job or just trying to to find something to put money in their pocket, or they're a kid trying to get to their career, or they're a high school kid just trying to earn some extra some money so they're not beset you know to help their families out, right? Us being jerks about it doesn't help them want to work in those jobs. No. So there's other ways to go about it. Yes, correct people when they make mistakes, but doing it a loving way, and then really that's the big takeaway from this. Madison or not Madison, but Satan.

SPEAKER_04 15:10

Satan was a jerk to Madison. Rather than approaching her with a let's talk about this, she accused Madison of following Satan and and you know, like allowing demons into her life.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Right. And and so, but no, no, City doesn't learn from her grandpa because grandpa uh imparts some words of wisdom to her. Like she she honestly, the way this text reads to me, she doesn't hear really the words that grandpa was saying. He knows she knows their mean, right? Right? But the words didn't structure, it was his action, it was his attitude. Yeah, and he saw she saw his actions and attitude, and it made her reflect on her own and realize that she was wrong.

SPEAKER_04 15:55

Yeah. Well, and but the thing is like she saw somebody who was blatantly being mean, and his behavior was being excused, while her not trying to be mean, was being accused. Well, she even though she wasn't trying to be mean, was being accused of being mean.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:20

And it wasn't letting her off the hook. So she's seen this hypocrisy and is like, that's not okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:27

Like her grandpa was trying to be mean. He was being very he was generalizing, he was being a jerk, and mom makes an excuse for him. And I kind of feel like we tend to do the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Right.

SPEAKER_04 16:42

We make excuses for the people who are old and and elderly in our lives because we don't well, we don't feel like we can correct them. We don't feel like we can teach an old dog new tricks. And so they are just allowed to be jerks, and meanwhile, we're telling our kids you can't behave like they are.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

But guess who they're paying attention to the most? Yeah. The adults that are in their lives.

SPEAKER_04 17:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:10

And so, like, that's that's why I will be very blunt.

SPEAKER_05 17:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:14

I will call out the the jerk behaviors when I see it. And yeah, some adults think some older adults may think I'm a little disrespectful in that area, but I don't want my kids growing up thinking that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Right. Now, grandpa may not be a terrible person, and we're not saying that he is. However, his and he may be a good, godly Christian man. Again, all we have to go off is off of what Amber is telling us about her father-in-law. Now, again, he might be a good Christian man if you know him in person. Like, but again, from this text message, what we're getting is not that, right? The Bible tells a tree will be known by its fruit.

SPEAKER_04 17:56

Yeah, and if you're not producing good fruit, you're not a good tree.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Yeah. And that's where too, kids pick up on that faster than we do as adults. Because again, as adults, we get desensitized and grow numb to the bad fruit around us, right? We go as nose deaf to, but kids, their hearts are kind of raw and ready. And so when they uh encounter something like this, that the fruit is obviously reeking of hypocrisy, it's gonna stand out to them. Now, again, in this case, it helps. Again, we're always easy, it's easier for us to point out the flaws of somebody else than it is to look at ourselves. But Sadie does that here, like she shows us her heart is vulnerable. She's a kid that's moldable, teachable, ready to grow, ready to be molded.

SPEAKER_04 18:43

Which is better than most adults.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

Yeah. And in this moment, she sees grandpa again, who she probably respects and looks up to. Um, does this mean thing? And it but it also opens her eyes to the fact that, you know, maybe I shouldn't re-examine this situation that I've been a part of.

SPEAKER_04 18:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Um so so I again, I guess, Nicole, it how would you text Amber back in response to this?

SPEAKER_04 19:07

Well, I would actually use my mom as an example for this one, and it's a good example, which is rare. Um, but this reminds me of when I was about Sadie's age and I was overhearing a conversation between my mom and my grandpa. And my grandpa, I'm not even gonna sugarcoat it. The man was racist. Like, if he saw a person of color on the TV, he would change the channel. If he saw a mixed couple, he would lash out for like two hours on a rant about why that was not okay. And there was one day I just had enough because you know, I I've always been that kid that looks at the world, and when I see injustice, I'm not okay with it.

SPEAKER_05 19:55

Right.

SPEAKER_04 19:55

Um, so I I had had enough, and I went up to my room and just started bawling because my grandpa was at our house and he was saying all this hateful stuff about those people. And my mom ended up coming up through my room because because my room was kind of a walkthrough area into her room. She'd gone to go grab something, I don't know. But she saw me crying and she's like, What's happen, what happened? And I told her what I what it had upset me, and she's like, Well, I don't think your grandpa means to hurt you. And I told her flat out, I was like, it doesn't matter if you meant to hurt me. That hurts me. Like, it hurts me because these people matter. And um, and so she she actually told me, Tell him, tell him how his actions make you feel.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:54

And so I had to sit down with my grandpa literally less than three minutes later, and I told him that I hated hearing him talk like that. And and he made it every excuse in the book as to why he it was okay for him to talk like that. And I was like, no, it's not okay. Because even if you really believe that, if you really love me, you're not gonna talk like that around me. You're not gonna behave like that around me because you are trying to convince me that this is okay. And anybody who loves somebody else is not going to convince them that mistreatment of others is okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:31

And and I told him, I was just like, if you really love me, you're gonna stop talking like that. And so if I were Amber, I would tell her to have Sadie talk to her grandpa.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:43

Now, I would if I were Amber, I'd also be in the room and make sure that grandpa doesn't go and be disrespectful back to Sadie. Um, but usually when, especially in the grandpa position, especially if it's a good grandpa and they have a good relationship. He'll hear her. And at the very least, he'll he will stop that behavior in front of her.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:07

He'll be more cautious about who's watching.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

And hopefully so, right? And if not, then Sadie's learned a lesson too of um how to she's gonna have to navigate this difficult situation with her grandparents from time to time.

SPEAKER_04 22:22

And and maybe she'll learn that maybe they're they're not the best people to give advice on how to treat others.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

Exactly. Now, and kind of to your point, too, I remember um my brother was dealing with some lung issues growing up, and my grandpa smoked a lot. You know, he w drove back and forth to work in Indianapolis, so he smoked in his car. Well, we went to go ride somewhere with my grandpa, and Travis refused to go because he couldn't breathe in the car. And I remember that my grandpa, I mean, you could visibly see it hurt him, but he also understood, and he didn't get mad and ill about it. He didn't try and defend himself. Next thing I know, he's he's at least trying to quit or quit smoking in the car as much. And yeah, again, sometimes when kids say stuff to us like that, it hurts. But you know a kid's being honest, they're not doing it to just be mean.

SPEAKER_04 23:15

Yeah. They're not being malicious.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Yeah. So they're doing it from a place love.

unknown 23:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Alright, so that kind of brings us to our main topic today. Um we're talking about the people who influence our kids the most.

SPEAKER_04 23:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

And again, we said in the opening, it's not social media, it's not teachers, it's it's not the people.

SPEAKER_04 23:37

I but the I mean, it is. But I'm I only have your kid, like as a teacher, I only have your kid for eight hours a day, if that yeah, and then I have the kids on Thursday nights for an hour, maybe two hours on Sunday. And then yeah, Sunday, it's it's an hour or two, depending on what class you're in that day. Um but for the rest of their lives, for the rest of their day, parents, they're with you.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Yeah. So they are they are learning how to navigate life long before they ever get formal instruction.

SPEAKER_04 24:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

They are learning from the people that are in their homes. Yeah. Um they're watching how we as parents deal with stress. Do we get mad and frustrated and take it out on everybody when we're when we're upset and stressed out? Or do we take a minute collect ourselves?

SPEAKER_04 24:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

And then figure try and figure it out.

SPEAKER_04 24:36

Yeah. And they're watching parents who are saying they love each other. They're watching them interact and learn how to love each other.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:46

Like they they learn how or what love looks like.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Yeah. Um so like Nicole and I, we are very well, you you get a glimpse of our relationship in these short little podcast episodes, but we very much pick on each other a lot.

SPEAKER_04 25:04

We are very sarcastic.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Very sarcastic. We're always doing something to harass honor to harass the other one. Um, and harass is the appropriate term.

SPEAKER_04 25:16

Um But it's all in fun.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

It's all in fun, and we know it's in fun.

SPEAKER_04 25:21

And the like the thing is, is if I set a boundary, or if Jason sets a boundary, it's okay, sorry. And we don't cross that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

Yeah, and so um that's our love language. And now, again, our kids, you know, Jaden's 12, Ben's 10, and Emmy is eight. They've picked that up from us. They're extremely. So again, when you talk to the Barnett children, you better come with the guns loaded, you know, mentally, because they're gonna come at you rapid fire. But it's not because they're being disrespectful or rude or mean to you, it's because that's how they've learned the show love from us. Uh, and the other thing is they're very assertive, which Nicole and I were not, but they've gotten that because we've given them the confidence to be able to be themselves.

SPEAKER_04 26:02

Yeah, actually, my favorite, my favorite parenting moment. I actually got mad at Jaden for something. I don't even remember what it was, but as I was as I was in the middle of scolding her, I apparently misspoke. And she stopped me as I was mid-sentence, and she's like, actually, mom, that that's not what happened at all.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

And Nicole's really mad. And she's trying to stay mad. That's what makes it funny for me.

SPEAKER_04 26:30

I paused and just started laughing and then crying because my daughter felt confident enough in my love for her that she could stop me mid-anger sesh, correct me, and know that I wasn't going to be like horrible.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

Yeah. And not only that, you know, Jay didn't didn't defend herself as far as what she did wrong. She didn't try and buck the consequences of what she did wrong.

SPEAKER_04 27:05

And she still had consequences, like she was still in trouble. But the funny thing is, is like immediately after that, it like she started rozzing on me for misspeaking, and then I was razzing on her for being a little turd and interrupting her mom.

SPEAKER_05 27:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:18

But it went from me being angry and frustrated about this situation that I don't remember, to yes, she acknowledged that she had a consequence, but the the tone of the room shifted.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:36

And I was just like, that's my favorite parenting moment.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

The downside to the way our relationship works, because there's a drawback to this, because again, Nicole said it, we know the boundaries.

SPEAKER_04 27:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Our kids don't know those yet. Right. And so we've had to help us like, for instance, Ben has gone through a phase where he likes to joke that people are fat. All right. And we don't believe in body shaming anybody. And he's not Ben's not trying to do that. He's just he thinks it's funny, and that's what he does. He's a 10-year-old boy.

SPEAKER_04 28:09

And it doesn't help that his friends at school all call each other fat and call everybody around them fat. So it's not even he he's picking it up at school.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Yes. But we I've I've had to sit down with him and I've had a talk with him. It's like Ben, you know, you understand, like, there are some people that they struggle with this. Not because they're lazy, not because there's it's just because that's that's how how their bodies build. That's what they're dealing with in their life. And um, and I also talked about how because he was going around calling his sisters fat, and I said, Ben, you also understand, you know, there's a lot of mm girls that uh deal with eating disorders and things like that because boys do too. Boys do too. But because they do that because they that's what they think about themselves, and they end up hurting themselves, or even worse than that. And you know, Ben was kind of upset by that. Now, again, now I didn't know that was a dad-loving thing to do, and I so I encouraged him to not talk to people that way.

SPEAKER_04 29:07

And he he has consequences when he does.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

So my favorite consequence, it wasn't a consequence Nicole and I gave him, is one that Jaden, his older sister, gave him. And again, I I tell this story, I've told it a lot recently in person if you've been around me. But one day I'm just standing, Nicole and I and the kids in like a semicircle, and all of a sudden Jaden rolls off and she just like levels Ben with her fist.

SPEAKER_04 29:32

Like she punches him and like knocks him to the ground.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

Yeah, now she didn't hit him in the face, she hit him in the stomach, right? And so she and right in front of us, too. And that's not normal Jaden behavior. And so I'm like, Jaden, what happened? And now Jaden wouldn't tell me. And Ben, Ben's both in pain and he's kind of laughing on the ground. And so I'm like, Ben, what what happened? What did you say? And what did you do? And he goes, He doesn't, he again, he doesn't tell on himself and he doesn't tell on his sister either. He just looks at me and says, Dad, I had that one coming. But later on, Jaden did tell me, hey, Ben called me fat. And so I yeah. So sometimes, so that's the that's the drawback. But again, where did they learn how to do this? They learned from watching Nicole and I. And again, this is a funny example, but again, think about your own relationship with your spouse or the people in your house. What are you putting on display? Um, I you know, one of the hard things for me to, you know, I grew up in a home where again, guys, we didn't express emotion. We didn't talk about what hurt what what we were feeling. Yeah, we were taught to suppress it and shove it down. So, guess what? I've struggled with most of my life.

SPEAKER_04 30:42

Yeah, sharing your own.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Sharing my emotions. Like Nicole will have to ask me a bunch of times to try and figure out what's wrong.

SPEAKER_04 30:48

Yeah, you jerk.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

And sometimes I'll tell her something, but that's not even the real thing, just because I want her to leave me alone. But she's giving me a death glare right now. I don't know if you can feel it through the podcast or not, but I can I'm not even looking at her and I can feel it right now. But anyway, but it's one of the things I've had to learn to work through, you know.

SPEAKER_04 31:10

Um so you lied to me.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Um so again, what we do in our home, how we speak to each other, how we treat each other, those things are important.

SPEAKER_04 31:23

Yeah. And now don't negate the influence of teachers and and church people and social media. Social media can be an amazing tool, but it can also be a detrimental one. Um, but the thing is, is that's where you have to be very intentional about the influences you let in your child's life. Um, I actually am a part of a Facebook group uh for for people who are struggling with um post-deconstruction, let's just call it that. Um they've torn off there's they've torn apart their faith, they've reconstructed what they're able to reconstruct, and some of them have never walked back to walking with Jesus, and some of them are. Um But there's this one one person in the group that had talked about the fact that her kids are wanting to be involved at church. Like one of their friends invited them to church, and and she's like, I I know the family, they're really great. I've seen a couple of their live stream services, it seems really good. Um, but I'm nervous about my kids being involved because she I I know how toxic some church environments can be. And so I told her, I was just like, do your due diligence. Um, make sure that like if you like call the pastor, talk to the pastor, talk to any Sunday school teachers, talk to any children's church leaders, um, any youth leaders that are gonna have influence in your child's life. And then I was I emphasize the fact that church, like what Jason and I try to do is we try to make sure that church is a safe place for every child who comes, especially the ones that do not come with a parent.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

Yes, right.

SPEAKER_04 33:17

And and when they're without a parent, we become the parental protection at that point. Like we are going to guard them from any negative comments from from people who are judging them, any, any, um, any critique, anything. Like we are protecting them and we are keeping them safe at church and safe mentally as well. Um, because church should be a safe place.

SPEAKER_02 33:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:41

And and as long as church remains a safe place, it is a welcome place for exploration for a child.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 33:49

But if church becomes an unsafe place, you pull that kid out.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 33:54

It's okay. You can find another church, you can find another spiritual influence in your kid's life to help build them up instead of tear them down. Same with school. If if your kid is in a school that is tearing them down and making them feel bad about yourself, pull them out. There are there's homeschooling options, there's cyber schooling options, there's there's private school options, there's online private school options if you want to try that. Like Christian and secular, and do your due diligence and explore those options if your child is unsafe in their current teaching environment, their current learning environment. And and this is gonna be controversial, but if your child is not safe with your extended family, don't force them to be a part of it. Um again, like I I shared earlier that you know that that one example from my mom was like one of the few positive ones that I can give. My kids don't even call her grandma anymore. Because of some of the things that she said to them, she said about me, she said to me, things that they've heard from their auntie Ivy, because like stories that they that she's told them, they don't trust her. And and they don't feel safe with her. And so if they don't feel safe with their uncles or aunts or grandparents or or like it doesn't matter, don't force them to be a part of a family that they're unsafe in.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

Right. And I think that's a good place to segue to the next part of this conversation because again, it's important. Like now, Nicole and I, as youth leaders and as youth pastors and now you know, children's pastor, on top of being a senior pastor. You know, one of the things that we do is we can we probably over-communicate with parents, but if your kid comes to the kids' group and they get in trouble for something, we're gonna tell you.

SPEAKER_04 36:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

And we're gonna tell you exactly how we handled it. Um, for instance, a couple weeks ago, our boys came into our kids' group that night. And it was the last week of school, or had it was a two weeks out from school being out, and they were just rowdy, and they all were ready to fight somebody, and they all ended up fighting one another. You know, there was not like no one was throwing hands or anything like that. There's no five-knuckle shuffles going about. But it was but there was some intense moments, and um, and so I when we went to to drop those boys off on the van from from you know from the group, I did pull each parent aside and be like, or guardian, be like, look, I had to get on them to this for this tonight. Um now keep in mind they weren't they weren't alone in this, but they were participating in it. Um so again, I was trying to let them know their kid's not a bad kid. It was just this was not a good thing that happened.

SPEAKER_04 36:47

And that's another thing. I have a pet peeve where people refer to children as bad children. When you give a child that identity, that's what you as that's what you see them as. That's that's what they begin to see themselves as, and they will they will rise to that occasion of being the bad kid. But if you let them know that you do not believe that they are a bad kid and that we're just correcting this behavior for in this moment, more often than not, they will change direction.

SPEAKER_02 37:18

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 37:20

Stop calling kids bad kids.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

And then again, this is a good place to segue, because again, now on the flip side of this, us being the adults at church, us being the adults in the our school or wherever we're interacting with kids at. Again, I said this when we were talking about the text message segment today, too, of there's no moment where you get to turn the love switch off. You are always representing Jesus. That's the cross we carry. Right? As Christians, there we there is no days off. Now it doesn't mean we're gonna be perfect, it doesn't mean there are gonna be moments we make mistakes, but we have to realize that when these kids come into our church or onto your school bus or into your classroom, you might be the only Jesus they ever get to see. You might be the only safe form of love they experience. So keep that in mind.

SPEAKER_04 38:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:24

Show them show them what the love of Jesus looks like. And again, you don't always have to use the words. Sometimes it's just uh kindness, right? You don't you're not you're not again, we so often we think sharing Jesus is preaching at people. No, sharing Jesus is your actions and your attitude. Occasionally you use words too. But most of the time it's actions and attitudes. So again, not every kid comes from a healthy home like that. So, teachers, you matter. Coaches, you matter. Um again, one of my favorite coaches ever was our my eighth-grade football coach, and he was one of the hardest coaches I've ever had. Like he would get on you, he might cuss at you a little bit. Coach Holmes, if you listen to this, one, why are you listening to this? And two, two, uh, I really appreciated because you were a hard coach, but the one thing I always knew, no matter yeah, he would get onto you for missing a block or missing a tackle, he punished the group when the group did something wrong. But one, he he he would always he cared enough to explain this is what you did wrong. Or he cared enough to try and make sure every kid got in, whether we were winning by 30 or losing by 30. Um and he didn't have to do things like that, yeah. But he cared enough to try. Um, and I noticed that. He also one time filled in for our general music teacher, which was our band director, and I learned more from him in that 30-minute class period than I did any other time that rest of that school year in music class. Impressive. Anyway, but again, you coaches matter, children's workers and children's church, you matter, don't go in with the bad attitude. You realize um when I was working in a car dealership, the owner had an opportunity to go to Disney and see the behind the scenes of Disney. And I don't know if it's still this way, but when he went that he came back and he told us, you realize that like if the employees there are having a bad day, they send them home.

SPEAKER_04 40:11

Yeah, and it's because they they want every person that enters Disney to have the most magical experience that they could possibly have. And they're not gonna have that if the cast and if the casting cast members of Disney are grumpy, with the exception of maybe Grumpy. But that's an act. Um but if if Cinderella is crying, it kind of ruins the moment.

SPEAKER_02 40:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:42

And if if Tarzan's throwing a temper tantrum, it it kills it. Like it kids start to be a little bit upset because all of a sudden their heroes are upset, so I need to be upset.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

Yeah. And so if Disney takes that that seriously about their theme park, right? Where you gotta go see Mickey Mouse and Goofy and maybe ride Splas Mountain, they care that much about that. We have the gift of everlasting life from Jesus Christ. We've been bestowed with grace that we don't deserve, we'd have we can never earn. And yet all he says is, follow me, and his commands are love God and love others. If that's what we have, that's that's the kind of joy we have, that's the kind of grace we have, that's so much greater.

unknown 41:38

Right?

SPEAKER_01 41:38

And that's what we should be showing, especially to these kids who maybe have never don't get a witness to that on a regular basis.

SPEAKER_04 41:45

Yeah. And that's not to say that you have to fake a smile.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

No. But Or let them get away with murder.

SPEAKER_04 41:51

But be gracious. Right? Like give yourself grace, give each give them grace. Yeah, recognize that they're gonna be messy, they're gonna be rough around the edges, they don't know proper etiquette all the time unless somehow they ended up growing up in the royal family.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:09

But you need to know that your actions speak louder than any I love you that you could possibly say. Yeah. If you're saying I love you, but then criticizing everything they do, criticizing their attire, criticizing their behavior, criticizing, criticizing the fact that that they don't look like they've showered, that's not love. And that kid doesn't feel loved.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

Yeah. And you're assuming a lot too. You're assuming they have soap and shampoo. They you're assuming they have their water turned on and is working properly. You're making a lot of assumptions and you're hurting a kid based on just what you see.

SPEAKER_04 42:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

So again, again, I'm not saying those things are okay, and and that you have to be okay with them being spelly. Again, I had a youth leader growing up, and when we came, she would regularly hose us down with Lysol as we were going home from an event to get the church van. Um But she did it in a joking way where we didn't feel offended by it, right? Um Yeah. No.

SPEAKER_04 43:10

Well, and it wasn't an a isolated incident where it was like you were the one that she was targeting. It was well, the whole group stinks, so we're all gonna we're all gonna get sprayed down.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

Yeah. But um But I have I actually have two stories that kind of fit, like again, where you can correct kids, but in a loving way.

SPEAKER_04 43:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:31

Um, and it's actually one it's one it's with the same kid. And I'm gonna tell the second story that happened first because the kid got in trouble in the service, but it's partially my fault. Pastor Jason was filling in for Sunday school that day. And this was before I started writing the curriculum, right? So I was using, I was supposed to be using the curriculum provided. Well, I forgot it. Uh oh. And so I was kind of winging and I decided to walk the kids through the worship service and why we do what we do and how we do it. And when I got to the worship part, I expressed to them that worship is us praising God as individuals. It doesn't matter what you sound like. Um, it's it's self-expression. Self-expression. And so if again, too, don't feel like expressing love for God. Yeah, and also that doesn't mean in worship doesn't mean you have to stand still. You know, you can move a little bit. If you feel like you need to, you know, move around. Yeah. Well, I didn't I didn't preface this the correct way.

SPEAKER_04 44:25

Because and the thing is, is one thing he's not mentioning is one of the little boys in the class has what I call the trifecta. He's got ADHD, which means he can't sit still. He's got ODD, which means he likes to push the boundaries. And then he has autism, which means he takes things super literally.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

Yes. And so, fast forward to the service, and I was sitting on the platform, right? And I could see this happening, but I was not in a position where I could intervene to save it. And Nicole was in the sound booth, so she she one didn't know I taught this lesson yet. And two, she couldn't get down there if she wanted to. And so this boy, he kind of slipped into the middle aisle. Now, can I the other thing is the church doesn't know I've taught this lesson. So we're all standing and singing, and all this gentleman in the back seats is this boy kind of start goofing off. Yeah, and now he wasn't goofing off, but he was in the center aisle. And I again I forgot to say, you know, saying, you know, at least I I forgot to get some parameters to this.

SPEAKER_04 45:24

Although, I mean, to be fair, old time Nazarenes wouldn't have had a problem.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

Yeah, and they would have ran the aisle. Now, and the guy got on to me, but he was but he wasn't mean about it, and actually he felt bad after the service. And I told him, No, no, feel bad. That was you added something to it that I didn't add to it. And he did it in a loving, gentle way. You know, was he firm? Absolutely he was, but did he do it in a way where I felt the kid thought felt threatened or upset? Absolutely not. Um now the same kid, this is this is another event. Um, he was attached, he's very attached to Nicole.

SPEAKER_04 45:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

I don't know if you want to tell this part of the story.

SPEAKER_04 46:00

I don't know which part you're talking about because I have a lot of stories with him.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

Uh oh, so Nicole was preaching on this particular Sunday.

SPEAKER_04 46:05

Oh, yeah. Okay. So yes, I was preaching on this particular Sunday, and we did have somebody leading children's church at the time, but this little boy, again, very attached to me, didn't wasn't quite familiar with the person who was leading children's church at the time. And so he asked if he could stay upstairs and listen to me preach. And we never make kids go downstairs if they don't feel comfortable. So I said, Yeah. And he wanted to sit in the front row and listen to me preach. But again, ADHD, kid can't sit still. Um, so he's, you know, kind of he starts off in the pew and then he kind of starts laying on the pew, and then he's on the floor, and the I love the way our church responded, like no nobody had any issue. Um, but he discovered that there were hymnals on the shelf underneath the front pew. And so he grabs all the hymnals out and he starts building like a like he would with a card tower.

SPEAKER_01 47:09

Yeah, but with hymnals, but with hymnals.

SPEAKER_04 47:11

And at first he's building them just in front of the front pew and not a big deal, but then he goes to the center of the of the aisle and he starts building there because there's more room. And then one of the adult Sunday school teachers, she's like, Hey, you want to come sit with me? And he's like, No, just like that. Just no. And she still talks about that, like the it was the funniest thing to her, and everybody just thought it was adorable, but but nobody was like, I mean, yeah, he distracted a little bit, but like nobody allowed that to keep their focus off of the sermon, off of what God was doing. And honestly, to them, it was just testament to the fact that God was moving in our church.

SPEAKER_01 47:58

Yeah. And so you have to understand, too, teaching again, especially kids that have never been in the church before, teaching them how to sit still in church is a process. It's gonna take a little while. Matter of fact, one of the things that I do with our kids' group, I haven't done it so much recently, but usually when I teach the kids' group lesson on Thursday nights, we go into the sanctuary and they sit in the pews in the sanctuary as I teach. Now, I don't expect it, you know, it's not the same level of quiet as it is on a Sunday morning.

SPEAKER_04 48:24

They're very interactive.

SPEAKER_01 48:25

And usually I'm doing some type of object lesson that gets them riled up too. But the point is they're they're learning to integrate and put their minds that this space is where we learn about Jesus. Um so that's something I can I'm doing on my end to try and help them with that. Um, but again, they're learning based on how we behave and interact with things. So again, on our end as adults in the church, especially, you know, classroom, school bus, wherever you are, when we encounter kids, we need to understand we don't know what their life is like behind the scenes. So do your best to be Jesus in that moment.

SPEAKER_04 48:59

And don't assume that just because on the outside looking in, everything seems to be okay.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:06

Um I I heard a story this week that really made me upset because a youth leader insisted that somebody in her youth group shouldn't have the problems that they have because their life is not that bad.

SPEAKER_02 49:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:22

You don't know.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:24

You don't know the trauma that somebody's gone through. You need to give grace.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

Yeah. You do not get to define what's hard for somebody else. No. You don't. Because you're not them and you're not in their circumstances, and especially when it comes to kids. And I'll be honest with a lot of kids are dealing with things that we as adults don't know how to handle.

SPEAKER_04 49:46

No.

SPEAKER_01 49:46

Let alone their their little minds and hearts.

SPEAKER_04 49:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:49

So be gracious. And also be gracious yourself. There's gonna be times where you make mistakes. Be gracious, but also be repentant when you make mistakes, be honest. So I've had to go sit down with Ben a number number of times and apologize for Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:01

And don't be afraid to apologize. Just because you're the adult doesn't make you infallible. Like, it's okay to apologize to your kids when you cross a line. It's okay to apologize to your kid when when you've accidentally embarrassed them or when you've made them fearful, or or just apologize. You don't need to act like, well, I'm the I'm the authority, so I don't have to apologize. Like that's another thing. Kids are watching that, and and if you have that attitude, that's what they're gonna learn. And they're gonna be less willing to apologize because you won't.

SPEAKER_01 50:38

That's right. So again, every adult is teaching children something, and every adult is teaching uh children something about God.

SPEAKER_05 50:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:47

So the question isn't whether we're we're teaching, right? You might not be the Sunday school teacher, the kids' group teacher, the children's pastor, but you are teaching kids something. So what are you teaching them?

SPEAKER_04 50:57

Yeah, because children are always watching. Always.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

Yeah, they they will learn the things that we never intended to teach them.

SPEAKER_04 51:06

So no matter what your role is, parent, grandparent, teacher, coach, anyone randomly spending time with children.

SPEAKER_01 51:17

Remember, remember that the small moments matter. Again, we just get so focused on big moments. But those mo big moments aren't as big if as if we don't pay if we're not paying attention to the small ones.

SPEAKER_04 51:28

Yeah. The small, the moments matter, the kind words matter. Hold on. I'm gonna tell you a story real quick. The kind words matter. That little boy that we talked about, the one that sat in the front pew and made a card house out of hymnals. The reason we bonded is because on the way home, when I was dropping him off after one particular rough day at church, I sat him down and I was just like, hey, you're not a bad kid. God gave you the drive to push boundaries. And it is pushing those, and it is through pushing those boundaries that advances are made, that progress is made in this world. God has made you a world changer and you are going to do great things. You are not a bad kid. My job is not to make is not to tell you you're a bad kid. My job is to make sure that you're safe while you're challenging.

SPEAKER_01 52:28

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 52:29

Kind words matter. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:31

Patience matters.

SPEAKER_04 52:33

Grace matters.

SPEAKER_01 52:35

Again, because for some children, you may be helping shape how they understand the love of God. And I'm just gonna be honest to you. My mom had me in church every Sunday that she possibly could. And then if you've seen that, listen to the episode in season one about my backstory, you know my dad was sick and passed away when I was 16, but he was sick for a number of years before that. The reason I stayed following Jesus and stayed in church, again, wasn't because my mom forced me to be there every Sunday, it's because the people of the church loved me. Right? Some ways were different. You know, one offered me a job, you know, the pastors, they they affirmed my call and gave me opportunities. Guys in the church took me fishing, you know, would show me how to work on things. Uh then there's people in the uh, you know, the neighbor in the community, right? Like my I got my truck stuck in the mud, and he came and pulled me out. He laughed at me the whole time. I laughed at myself with him, but he showed up.

SPEAKER_04 53:30

You know, so again, the love that you show kids it helps you understand, it helps them understand teaches them something important about life. Yeah. So thank you for joining us for another episode of Table for Two.

SPEAKER_01 53:47

And until next time.

SPEAKER_04 53:48

Grace and peace to you.

SPEAKER_03 53:53

Church, cheese in hand, coffee and mugs. Our life's held together by grace and a few hugs. Stay set, she stop, miss we said. It's not about ladders, it's me and you. Serving the kingdom in eight ones and genes. Last lines and calistens and holy routines. There's table for two, there's room for you. Pull up for two. Love and face with the side of a face, we'll talk to what conflict look like.

SPEAKER_01 54:25

I need to start that part, and we gotta do the whole thing over again. No.