Ep 8. / Kim Rowell - Managing Editor - News Production, ITN

Kim Rowell is the Managing Editor of News Production at ITN and passionate advocate for amplifying the voices of underrepresented communities through storytelling, a commitment that has defined her career over the past two decades. 

With an impressive portfolio that spans major broadcasters, independent production companies, and publishers, Kim has established herself as a leading figure in the realm of creative content. 

Her work is not only recognised for its artistic merit but also for its profound societal impact, often sparking debates in Parliament and prompting legislative changes.

Her work has led her to produce content with trending celebrities, top tier public figures, politicians and the Royal Family.

Kim is a Trustee and Board Member for UN Women UK, an ambassador for the Women of the Future Programme, Chair of the Royal Television Society Technology Centre, Chairs the Global Advisory Board for sustainable changemaking charity ‘In Place of War’, and sits on the Industry Advisory Board for the Media Trust. Kim has also served as Executive Producer of acclaimed short film titled ‘I SEE HER’.

Kim and I know each other through the Women of the Future Network in the UK, where she has been recognised for Leading with Kindness.

The award spurred her on to launch and produce an annual event receiving global attention called Global Kindness Fest. 

If you are facing uncertainty, loss or perhaps looking to optimise your ‘squiggly career journey’ by leaning into your passions and strengths, this interview will inspire you to take action.

Episode Highlights:

• Squiggly Career Path: Kim Rowell shares her non-linear career journey, emphasizing the importance of gaining vocational experience and the unexpected opportunities that shaped her path in media.

• Impactful Storytelling: Kim discusses her work in interactive television and the evolution of audience engagement, highlighting her role in pioneering interactive content on shows like "Britain's Got Talent."

• Leadership and Resilience: Kim reflects on the challenges of leadership during the COVID-19 pandemic, including the tragic loss of a team member, and the importance of listening and supporting her team.

• Kindness and Community: Inspired by a tweet, Kim co-founded the Global Kindness Fest, a festival promoting kindness and community spirit, which has raised significant funds for charity.

• Purpose and Legacy: Kim emphasizes the importance of purpose, legacy, and hope, encouraging others to take action on issues they care about and to be tenacious in their pursuits.

Social Media:

LinkedIn: Kim Rowell https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimrowell/?originalSubdomain=uk 

Instagram: @kimrowelltv  

https://www.instagram.com/kimrowelltv/?hl=en 

Women of the Future Podcast: 

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/women-of-the-future-podcast/id1466659770

Podbean https://womenofthefuture.podbean.com/ 

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6zY66ogw33DLTBNFjqx5CT 

Transcript

Kirstyn DeVries (00:00.716)
Hello and welcome, Kim. It is so lovely to have you on the podcast.

Kim Rowell (00:04.949)
So nice to see you.

Kirstyn DeVries (00:06.734)
You as well. So I'm sitting here in the USA recording this. However, we met in London back in 2024. You and I are both involved in a group called the Women of the Future, a UK based group that is recognizing and championing in a big way women who are driving change across various different fields. And from what I remember, Kim, you and I attended a couple of the same events where we were listening to panels. We were part of these group, you know,

environments and we had this incredible chat. I remember about your role as one of their ambassadors and I started finding out a little bit about what you do and we got talking to your career media and about your passion in many different things but also as a founding member of Global Kindness Fest which I know we'll get to, a voting member of BAFTA and there's so many other things that I can't wait to have you talk about. But yeah, I...

Kim Rowell (00:58.698)
You

Kirstyn DeVries (01:04.334)
really cannot wait to have this conversation today,

Kim Rowell (01:07.361)
I'm so grateful to you for asking me and I remember that first meeting and you came over like a breath of fresh air and this massive force of nature in a room and it's so captivating to me. Women in particular like that who literally just grab your attention so thank you for this opportunity.

Kirstyn DeVries (01:25.518)
Thank you so much. Now I wanted to tell your story about not only how you've been a woman in leadership across the industry, but how you've made an impact. And for our audience, can you start off, Kim, by just taking us through your personal journey in your career and how that led to where you are today?

Kim Rowell (01:42.434)
It's been a bit of a squiggly journey. I think they call it a squiggly career, but I studied journalism. I did do broadcast journalism at university and I'm from Devon, which is like a little place down the bottom southwest of the United Kingdom. And there's not a lot that goes on in Devon. And when I like naively graduated, was like, oh God, I literally expected there to be a job for me to walk into and there wasn't. And I worked in a petrol station for a really long time, but I said long time. Yeah.

Kirstyn DeVries (02:08.206)
Listen, I've been to Devon and for those who haven't, it is quite small, so I hear you. Beautiful.

Kim Rowell (02:14.664)
It's beautiful, not a lot happens there. then, yeah, then I literally work for free. And I think if you have a career in media, you probably would have worked for free at some point for quite a long time. And I think I did that off and on for a couple of years, really. But you need to get that vocational experience. And I then got a break. I'd interviewed for something for a kids TV show or program that they were trying to launch in Cornwall. And the interview was

called it like speed dating, you had to meet all of the people that were kind of the stakeholders in this organization and I got on really well with one of these people and he was the think it was the COO at the time of 2-4 broadcast which was in Plymouth so I started then in TV production which I blimmin loved because it was just fun and it wasn't serious I could have a good time I worked on programs, there's a show in the UK called the Hotel Inspector and basically you go around and this

formidable woman called Ruth Watson would go in and she would say you need to change all of this about your hotel but we literally traveled around and I was in my early 20s having a whale of a time, had no money but then I was just literally just living out of a van and we were traveling around with cameras and lights and tripods and just having a great time with it all and then I was it was good fun.

Kirstyn DeVries (03:21.431)
Wow.

Kirstyn DeVries (03:32.738)
That's incredible, Kim, and what a great time to do that at that age, right?

Kim Rowell (03:35.201)
It was great. think that's a thing where you're just literally just trying things on for size, right, and just figuring out what you like, but, you know, both personally and professionally. And I am, in all honesty, I moved to London because I had a boyfriend at the time who lived in London. I actually finally got a job in London at GMTV, which is breakfast television. And then we split up, obviously, of course we did. And then I was working as an interactive researcher for GMTV. And then

Kirstyn DeVries (03:44.014)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (04:03.104)
I if I go into the ins and outs of every role I've had, we'll be here for ages. But I then became an interactive producer for ITV and worked on some of the big shiny floor shows like Britain's Got Talent and The X Factor. I then worked for Fremantle, who actually are the independent production company behind those shows. So worked more broadly for shows like Celebrity Juice and Take Me Out. And this was in, again, in an interactive capacity. And this was right at the time, this was going back almost 20 years.

when they were just launching how to vote on Britain's Got Talent and things like that. And I mean, now you can literally buy the clothes people are wearing on Love Island, but this was the first machinations of interactivity within television. And I've always kind of worked in that space. And then...

Kirstyn DeVries (04:46.583)
Right, so you were kind of breaking ground there, Kim. Were you seeing that the behaviors of not only the production team but of the consumers was really on the cusp of change at that moment? What did you see?

Kim Rowell (04:56.904)
Yeah, was fascinating. It was really interesting to kind of observe how the audiences wanted to influence what they were seeing on the television. And that's curious now because we see content creators and influencers on social platforms. So people have created almost this vocation and profession for themselves where they have that power, where they can literally, you know, they get paid a fortune to advertise products and...

Kirstyn DeVries (05:14.626)
Yes.

Kim Rowell (05:25.224)
food and clothes and commodities and what have you and I think that was well where I was almost 20 years ago that was the first iteration of that almost like it's not clearly it's not the same thing but it's that element of I know what I want this is what drives me and I always have these fundamentals around because my career has primarily been founded in storytelling and I think when it comes to storytelling

Kirstyn DeVries (05:42.391)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (05:51.297)
It's the style and tone of what you're seeing and it's going to the audience where they are. And it is the element of escapism and what you're seeing as well. But also you really need to understand your audience and take your content to them. And I think, again, this where I was almost 20 years ago was the start of all of that kind of process. And yeah, and then after Fremantle, I worked for the Telegraph.

Kirstyn DeVries (06:15.341)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (06:18.982)
and that was more around exec producing their video content, which sounds strange because the Telegraph is obviously a newspaper and there was a massive challenge in getting the audience to come from the paper to the audiovisual realms, but it evolved. We started initially making episodic content and big series and then we aligned more closely with the editorial of the newspaper so we would work with the foreign desk and we did this brilliant series on how

Russia was denying the existence of HIV and so it had gone from again more commercialised, a more commercialised approach to this editorial masterpiece but there was this ongoing battle in getting eyes on the prize if you know what I mean, because we were making this fascinating content, we even worked with like the Bill and Linda Gates Health Foundation on issues of antibiotic resistance and

Kirstyn DeVries (06:59.105)
Wow.

Kim Rowell (07:14.324)
bioterrorism and farming and things like that. But because it was at the Telegraph, no one watched it. So it's like you had this amazing piece of content and no one was watching it. then I moved to the BBC and it was almost a flip reverse of that because the BBC has an organic audience. The BBC is internationally recognisable and you could have that impact almost without an awful lot of effort. So that was fascinating.

Kirstyn DeVries (07:19.039)
Yes.

Kirstyn DeVries (07:24.045)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (07:29.665)
Wow.

Kirstyn DeVries (07:36.448)
Right.

Kim Rowell (07:42.101)
When I was at the BBC, I was an exec producer and news editor and commissioning content. It was a young team and they were making content for their peers. So everything from money, mental health, gender, the environment, that kind of thing. And that was some of the most groundbreaking things and content that I'd ever made. was around modern day slavery, rape reform, sibling separation in care, alternative cancer therapies. And we really...

pushed the marker when it came to challenging policy makers, stakeholders, the government on laws and regulations in these areas and that was immensely satisfying from a career point of view and then it led me to where I am now which is more of cultural piece. I've always been fascinated by people and I'm now managing editor of news production at ITN. like I say the career is just all a bit, it's not straight at all.

Kirstyn DeVries (08:11.094)
Mm.

Kirstyn DeVries (08:17.874)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (08:23.145)
Absolutely.

Kirstyn DeVries (08:36.626)
Yes. And I think that many of the people listening to this, are entrepreneurs who have had that squiggly career and can really relate to a story that is not linear. when you were talking just now, I'd love if you could just almost double click on the feeling in the work environment between when what you were creating, which was with just as much passion in the telegraph and just as much gusto, wasn't seen versus when you came over to the BBC and you almost had this spotlight of the things that you were doing getting recognized. What did that feel like? And can you describe that?

Kim Rowell (08:42.036)
Mm.

Kim Rowell (08:54.612)
Mmm.

Kim Rowell (09:05.664)
Oh, was immensely satisfying. I mean, I'm not going to say when I went to the BBC, it was like a walk in the park. But I think because of the Telegraph, I'd even worked on, I did work on a podcast that was immensely successful called Mad World with Bryony Gordon, who's a writer who now works for the Daily Mail. And she was talking about her mental health issues. And this is again, going back to

When would this have been? Like 2018, I think. So about seven years ago. And we spoke to Prince Harry because it was the 20th anniversary of his mum's death. And that made front page news because that was the first time that he properly addressed how he'd managed to deal with it and the aftermath because he hadn't really spoken about it. obviously now he's had his autobiography and he's a bit too much offering from the Prince Harry side of things. But at the time it was...

Kirstyn DeVries (09:42.476)
Mm.

Kirstyn DeVries (09:55.786)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (09:59.37)
groundbreaking because again men don't normally talk about or they're not known to talk about their mental health struggles and it was brilliant to be a part of that series because it wasn't just celebrities like Prince Harry it was the second episode we did was with a mental health nurse called Mandy Stevens who had had a breakdown and she couldn't stop it happening even though she recognized exactly what was going on she couldn't stop herself from going through that process so

Kirstyn DeVries (10:06.956)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (10:28.415)
I think that's a big part of why I won the Women of the Future Award was my work in that space because it was just, it was revelatory for me and to have that kind of, impact is one word, but I think it was more of a leveller because it was personally a great moment of perspective for me.

Kirstyn DeVries (10:35.147)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (10:52.105)
But also from a career point of view, I helped identify that I wanted to do things that were more meaningful and I wanted to do things that mattered and were change making.

Kirstyn DeVries (11:01.676)
Yeah, and I think Kim, that's actually what comes out in your personality and your ethos is and the name of this podcast and pace and purpose is that, you know, your story is focused on this transition that you just described where it makes more of a

passion in your day to day when you have this thing that you are purposefully driving forward and that is making meaning. And I love that about it. And, you know, when you spoke about, you know, the various interviews that you would take and the stories that you can now tell, I mean, people don't realize across your career, level of, conversations that you've had with people that have made global impact and people that are decision makers at a high level in the UK and beyond. so.

Kim Rowell (11:24.413)
Hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (11:46.56)
Can you share for our audience a typical day in your life? What does that look like when you're looking at your diary?

Kim Rowell (11:49.599)
So I suppose I do do a lot of extracurricular things as well. I work with UN Women in the UK and I'm also the chair of the board for the Royal Television Society tech centre and I give a lot of my time to the media trusts on an advisory board and there's another brilliant charity called In Place of War which I help with the advisory board there so I try and factor that into my day a little bit but if we're talking about my day job in particular

then normally I start my day by just looking at how our platforms have performed. So my role encompasses the digital side of things, but also ITN is ITV Channel 4, Channel 5, ITV News London, and we can syndicate a lot of that content. So there's the broadcast teams as well. We have entertainment teams who look at junkets and red carpets of the latest films or TV programmes or whatever's coming out.

And then we have an archive, ITN's archive is celebrating 70 years this year. So if you've ever watched anything like The Crown or the Wham documentary on Netflix and you've seen a TV report, it probably would have come from our archive. And then we also have a children's news bulletin with Discovery Education. So it's similar to Newsround, if people are familiar with BBC Newsround, where it's like a daily and a weekly bulletin. but on a tip...

Kirstyn DeVries (13:05.601)
Wow.

Kirstyn DeVries (13:11.052)
Can you say for our international audience just the way that television is actually still so prominent in the UK? mean, with ITN Channel 4 and 5, I think for myself, you know, I've lived in the UK now for five and a half years, but for our international audience, can you just explain almost the following that these sorts of TV stations have?

Kim Rowell (13:17.928)
Yeah.

Kim Rowell (13:27.249)
yeah it's it's not it's interesting because obviously it's quite hard to explain actually isn't it because these linear channel these linear channels have millions of viewers for their tv programs so ITV for example will have a breakfast offering a lunchtime offering an evening offering and then the news at 10 so they are these big chunky programs that comprise their schedules and

Kirstyn DeVries (13:35.232)
Yes.

Kim Rowell (13:53.94)
Channel 4 is similar, it mainly has a big evening news programme as does Channel 5 and ITV News London as obviously regional so there are other regions but yeah they get millions of viewers and there is clearly now a massive focus on digital and streaming and making sure that everything is multi-platform and what have you but the linear offering, the broadcast offering is still the big bulk of where the focus is for sure and obviously how that translates onto there's ITVX now and

Kirstyn DeVries (14:09.771)
Yeah, of course.

Kim Rowell (14:24.169)
There's a massive appetite clearly for how these are digested and the demographics that you go after on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook even and YouTube is a big focus for our team within news and entertainment. The Royal Family is massive and Archive again, but yeah, it's so I suppose the typical day for me will start with a planning meeting and then right after a planning meeting, which is with the wider ITN team and all of the planning editors that work in those departments.

Kirstyn DeVries (14:32.501)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (14:41.823)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (14:53.895)
And then we have our specific department meeting. And then the rest of the day is made up with various catch-ups and ones-to-ones with the teams and editorial meetings. And I suppose then also just factoring in boundaries for myself around my time and making sure that I do get to go in, because we work in a basement. Our team is based in the basement of a building. So making sure I go and actually see daylight at some point. I think it is important.

not just be sat at your desk all day and just staring into the ether and even if you are immensely busy to make sure that you go and socialise with the team and like I was saying earlier the cultural part of my team is really important and it's a young team and I want them to feel supported and that we have connected not just through work but that I have an understanding and appreciation of who they are as people so that's really important to me as well so make sure I factor in time to build those relationships.

Kirstyn DeVries (15:24.563)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (15:30.367)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (15:48.788)
I'm curious and a lot of leaders are listening to the podcast and how they can foster and build their teams. Are there certain things that you do to sort of bring that connectivity and can you share just a little bit more about that?

Kim Rowell (15:57.311)
I'm not sure my example is one I'd like to recommend but it's finding the similarities because obviously I'm a woman in my 40s and my team are all in their 20s but I like I was talking about escapism earlier I love Love Island and I appreciate I sit and watch it sometimes and I'm like why am I watching this utter drivel but I think it's because it is escapist it makes me laugh the people on it are a little bit silly but

Kirstyn DeVries (16:10.955)
Hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (16:22.985)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (16:26.524)
They, and I think part of the reason why I do watch it is because I know some of my team do. So for me, Love Island is more about the social experiment and the interrelation of people and relationship dynamics and what have you. And I'll sit there and it genuinely will blow my mind as to how these people are behaving towards each other. But then it gives me something to go and then talk to the team about. And I think it's finding those affinities and it's whether that's...

Kirstyn DeVries (16:32.021)
Right.

Kirstyn DeVries (16:37.899)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (16:53.894)
something that's pastoral or something you've gone and done in your own time and I know that some of them are going to like a Billie Eilish concert or they'll go in Beyonce concerts and things like that and it's finding the affinity and it's finding the similarities that you have that can be unifying and we do things like we have a daily quiz so the head of our broadcast team will read a quiz from the newspaper The Metro

Kirstyn DeVries (17:02.687)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (17:07.069)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (17:19.346)
and then the guy that works on our packages, he'll read one that's more general knowledge. And then one of the women from the digital team will do one that she's built around like modern culture and pop culture. So that is unifying because we were all like, I know what that answer is. And there's a guy who runs our archive YouTube channel, he's a genius, he knows everything about history and he'll always get the answers right. So it's those kinds of moments where you're just appreciating each other, but also you're seeing a little bit.

Kirstyn DeVries (17:31.882)
Right?

Kirstyn DeVries (17:40.275)
Right?

Kim Rowell (17:46.064)
of the inner workings of what makes them smile and what makes them laugh and what they enjoy and what they're good at and that is really important as well.

Kirstyn DeVries (17:46.165)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (17:54.813)
Yeah, and what a great example because you're warming up the room by the commonality and then the creativity can flow and the conversation flows from there and also the trust. And I'd love to hear that. And also because, you you think about the age bracket you just described and that is the audience of the future as well for what you're producing. And so I love that your team is Young Energy and that you are building that.

Kim Rowell (18:03.292)
Yeah, absolutely.

Kim Rowell (18:11.068)
Mmm, mmm. Yeah.

Kim Rowell (18:19.464)
Yeah, it's good fun.

Kirstyn DeVries (18:20.991)
So for many of our listeners who are in business, sport, the creative industries, they're all trailblazing these new paths in their entrepreneurial zone, in their venture. And there's a commonality in all of that is that we have breakthroughs in certain moments, but there are burnout moments as well. And what I'd like to get to is a moment perhaps in your life where you've got thrown off pace professionally or personally. And what happened, Kim, and how did you find that rhythm again?

Kim Rowell (18:50.046)
Yeah, this comes with a trigger warning and it is a very unusual thing that I'm going to speak about and I know that it's not commonplace. But also it was interesting because I was having a conversation with my own daughter the other day because she was watching the news and she was getting quite upset about it. And I said to her, the news is the exception. We're reporting on things that are exceptional. These aren't normal things. Planes don't crash every day. There isn't a tsunami every day.

wildfires don't happen every day. The news is the exception so I think we need to be mindful of that. But there was a moment in one of these exceptions during Covid, it was right at the start of Covid, it was March of that year, when we were all literally just kind of coming into this new way of living which was so unique and so bizarre. And a direct report of mine, she'd had a lot of problems up until this point but she really really sadly took her own life.

Kirstyn DeVries (19:22.357)
Mmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (19:36.693)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (19:46.118)
it felt clearly it felt that the only option that she had left available and the hardest thing is obviously there's lots of there's lots of hard things I'm laughing and I don't mean it to be funny but it's just because it was so tragic there's nothing goes beyond how devastating that was but you would normally want to be with people and having to break that news to the team

Kirstyn DeVries (19:50.847)
Gosh.

Kirstyn DeVries (20:01.918)
Hmm... Yep.

Kim Rowell (20:11.837)
And I had to personally call some of the people that were closest to her and try and deliver that message. And it was like like, like goosebumps now talking about it because it was just the most painful thing. And all you would really want to do is go and sit somewhere together and reminisce and share memories and moments and remember her. And we couldn't do that because of COVID. So everything was...

Kirstyn DeVries (20:12.068)
Absolutely.

Kirstyn DeVries (20:26.762)
Mmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (20:31.059)
Hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (20:35.722)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (20:42.073)
online and removed and clearly when the restrictions started lifting we did all congregate and we did all celebrate her life and but also as a manager and a leader it was one of the toughest things I think I've ever been through in my life and the BBC didn't really have anything obviously clearly the BBC has counselling and they have support services and all that kind of thing but it just didn't seem appropriate and I think that was the

Kirstyn DeVries (20:42.459)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Kirstyn DeVries (20:47.422)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (20:52.178)
Wow, Kim.

Kim Rowell (21:10.225)
biggest challenge because these things aren't supposed to happen, I think, primarily. But it was a big, it was a game changer for me in the sense of making sure that I had my priorities straight. because I think it was just because life is so fragile, that life is immensely fragile. And I'm sure everyone listening will have had a moment when they've been made to realise

Kirstyn DeVries (21:13.78)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (21:26.235)
Mm, say more about that.

Kim Rowell (21:39.422)
through the death of someone they truly care about, whether it's a family member or a friend or an associate or someone they just know. it just stops you in your tracks and you just think, have I got my moral compass aligned? Am I doing things for the right reasons?

Kirstyn DeVries (21:58.155)
Mmm.

Kim Rowell (21:58.632)
There's this beautiful meme that I've seen a few times and it's like, why aren't people running towards their wildest dreams? Because we have one life and it's not, you you don't get a second go at this. You need to actually just be less fearful of messing it up. But if you have a driving passion or a desire or something that you really want to give a go, just do it. Like if you're not going to hurt anybody and like preferably if you're not breaking the law, but just go and

Kirstyn DeVries (22:09.681)
Yes.

Kirstyn DeVries (22:18.279)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (22:23.07)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (22:27.338)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (22:28.357)
go and do it because why not? You can think of a million reasons not to do something but as long as you've got a good reason to give it a go just why not? But yeah that was a really really challenging time.

Kirstyn DeVries (22:36.828)
Yes? Yeah.

Kirstyn DeVries (22:44.052)
Can I just double click on from a leadership point of view? How did you hold that space as a leader? Firstly, maybe what did it feel like? And if you're comfortable sharing a little bit, like where did you almost feel that stress in your body? And then how did you through those conversations of having to tell the team and live through that moment during COVID, how did you get to the point where you not resolved? Is it the right word? The word would almost be where you felt that you

communicated what you needed to communicate to that team during that moment.

Kim Rowell (23:15.185)
Yeah, it's so weird to reflect on it because I remember my own boss found out before I did and he had to ring me three times because he couldn't say the words. He couldn't, I was like, don't, what you, I couldn't understand what he was saying. I couldn't, I was what are you trying to say to me? And he was normally such a straight talking guy. And then he finally told me, I can remember exactly where I was and what I was doing. was eating my lunch.

Kirstyn DeVries (23:26.25)
you

Kirstyn DeVries (23:35.186)
Kim Rowell (23:40.85)
I sat in our dining room table, looking in the garden and I literally, my husband was in, because we had the biggest space and he was in a different room and I walked through and I was like, she's gone, she's dead. And it was just the most like, and he was like, who, who, like what? Because he didn't, I literally just caught him in a really abstract moment. And I didn't really know what to do with myself. And then, like I say, ended up calling around.

Kirstyn DeVries (23:49.684)
Hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (23:58.117)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (24:05.203)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (24:08.541)
her closest friends. I had to call I think about three or four of the people that were closest to her because she was such a gregarious person and so effervescent and absolutely stunning. Like such a beautiful woman. to tell, like it almost made me feel, it's weird because you feel, I felt like it wasn't my grief. Clearly I was sad and I didn't feel like I deserved.

Kirstyn DeVries (24:17.789)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (24:32.594)
Right.

Kim Rowell (24:38.159)
to be upset almost because they had a deeper relationship with her. But in the weeks to come, obviously, I reflected an awful lot. as I was her manager, I her direct manager, and I'd sat with her for hours trying to make sense. Yeah, yeah. And we'd had lots of really personal conversations about her situation. Like I said, there was more of a story to

Kirstyn DeVries (24:42.003)
That is so interesting.

Kirstyn DeVries (24:46.857)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (24:54.289)
Yes.

And you presumably had spoken with her on a daily basis.

Kim Rowell (25:07.921)
where she got to. And I always thought at the end of our conversations, it was like, brilliant, we're here, gonna action this, all good. And it just, I did blame myself for a really long time because you just think like, I could have saved her, which I can now, I think is ridiculous because it was out of my control entirely. And what happened was always gonna happen regardless of me.

Kirstyn DeVries (25:23.817)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kim Rowell (25:36.509)
This is what I mean, this is the selfishness that you have with grief. You're like, it's not about me. And I think as a leader, I had to make it not about me. But then, for example, we set off confetti cannons in the garden in celebration of her life all over Zoom. And then I was clearing it up. And then literally, I'm not kidding, for about two years after, the remnants of the confetti cannon were in the bottom of our recycling bin.

Kirstyn DeVries (25:39.549)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (25:54.067)
Beautiful.

Kirstyn DeVries (26:04.713)
Kim Rowell (26:06.378)
yeah, and it was just that constant little reminder of that moment and what happened. I didn't want to forget it. don't, think about her all the time, all the time. But again, I didn't feel like I deserved to think about her all the time. I felt like I, in the pecking order, again, it wasn't about me. And I think that's the thing about leadership. It's not about you nine times out of 10. It's about how you can influence and hopefully make people's lives better. But.

Kirstyn DeVries (26:15.081)
Hmm. Yeah.

Kirstyn DeVries (26:21.449)
Mmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (26:25.841)
Yes. Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah

Kim Rowell (26:35.324)
I did mental health for a day training, I actually done it before she died and I did it again after. And interestingly after when I did it there were so many things that I was more aware of as part of this training because of what had happened and I think one of the things I felt like I did get a bit wrong was that I didn't just listen to her. I tried to offer her an answer. I tried to offer her a resolve where I should have just sat and listened to her and just let her talk and I shouldn't like...

Kirstyn DeVries (26:47.529)
Yes.

Kirstyn DeVries (26:59.113)
Mmm.

Kim Rowell (27:05.36)
not that I was judgmental but I should have just let her talk and get it out and let that sit and I shouldn't because what I did was like that happened to me when I was don't worry it's fine this is all normal I tried to like make it okay and clue yeah yeah yeah yeah

Kirstyn DeVries (27:16.233)
So you naturally did reflective listening and just telling stories back and still being present. It sounds like you were very aware and very present. But you say more about that.

Kim Rowell (27:28.144)
I just, I think you just want to do the best, don't you? You just want to make, I think I do that as a friend generally. You want to make people feel that, you feel crap. Don't worry, like, you know, everyone goes through this stuff. But I think in that moment, that's not the appropriate thing to say. That someone needs to know that their feelings are valid.

Kirstyn DeVries (27:30.601)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (27:51.611)
that this is unique to them and it's important to them in a way that's not the same as you because we're all different, we're all from different walks of life, different ethnicities, age ranges, etc. She needed to just own who she was and have that recognised and again this is something that I learn afterwards.

Kirstyn DeVries (28:13.629)
What a beautiful learning Kim though, of just the power of listening. Like what a beautiful thing.

Kim Rowell (28:18.628)
Absolutely. Because I feel now that the most precious thing you can give someone is your time.

Kirstyn DeVries (28:23.527)
Mm. Mm. Yeah. And what happened after that moment? So after you had that breath of fresh air, you guys did the confetti cannon, you'd sort of taken a step back, you've moved through the COVID piece where the restrictions lifted a little bit. Can you talk a little bit about how you found that rhythm again? How did you get back?

Kim Rowell (28:46.542)
is... it was so... It was really gradual. It wasn't like, ta-da, here we go. And I think what I didn't realise at the time and what I realise now reflecting back on it is I needed somewhere to focus my energy. I think I had all of this emotion, good, bad, anger. You talk about the grief cycle and the stages of grief that you go through, like denial, rage, acceptance, coming through this kind of thing. And I think I needed to, as I was saying earlier, I wanted to...

Kirstyn DeVries (28:51.401)
Mmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (29:11.537)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (29:15.982)
make things better. I wanted to make the world better. I wanted to do something of change and significance and I think that an opportunity came to me there was a lady called Susie Hills and she tweeted and I knew her through Women of the Future actually she was normally shortlisted for a kindness and leadership award and she was like I'm at the doctors everything's pants we need to put more kindness in the world something along those lines and I was like yeah I'm up for that and like liked her comment and from that

Kirstyn DeVries (29:41.79)
Yeah.

Kim Rowell (29:44.665)
we launched and founded an initiative called KindFest which was a global... this sounds bonkers saying it like this... it was a global... the global kindness festival around World Kindness Day every year which is in November, middle of November. The first year we were opened by Captain Sir Tom Moore, he cut our ribbon and we had five tenths of content, everything from broadcasters to...

Kirstyn DeVries (29:52.283)
I love the name.

Kim Rowell (30:11.612)
poets to musical performances to DJs to celebrities. We've done it for four years. had people from the Duchess of York has done it, Mary Nightingale, Jon Snow, Gillian Anderson, amazing, amazing people. also, similarly to the Mental Health podcast, people and communities that just want to collaborate and make the world a better place.

Kirstyn DeVries (30:29.159)
Wow.

Kim Rowell (30:39.836)
place through that shared unity of kindness. And clearly when we launched, it was in COVID. And I think the biggest thing to come out of COVID was that community spirit and the need for connection. But we've managed, yeah, exactly. I think that's what everyone wanted, but we managed to raise thousands of pounds for charity. And like I say, it felt like, I only realized recently that it was, you know, it was kind of maybe the aftermath of what had happened.

Kirstyn DeVries (30:42.684)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (30:51.548)
Yes, I definitely agree.

Kirstyn DeVries (31:08.488)
Hmm.

Kim Rowell (31:08.822)
and I needed something positive to focus on and I think it was a good thing to have come out of something utterly terrible.

Kirstyn DeVries (31:11.4)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (31:19.044)
Mm-hmm. Thank you so much for sharing that moment where you were knocked off pace. And I know that it was a tough moment to share and it's beautiful. So I'm excited to see where this kindness, kindness, leads off the energy that came from that grief and how you're bringing now kindness and joy because of her life. So appreciate that.

Kim Rowell (31:30.48)
Yeah.

Kim Rowell (31:36.348)
Bye.

Kirstyn DeVries (31:42.459)
I wanted to move on to the next question around a non-negotiable. Kim, do you have a non-negotiable habit or a system in your routine? And you may have had this, by the way, during that situation that you just went through, but in your day to day, do you have something that pulls you back when everything feels off course?

Kim Rowell (31:53.565)
haha

Kim Rowell (32:00.208)
Yeah and it's not just one thing, it's a sentiment. I need to build in something that I know is going to make me smile. Know that something is going to give me that moment of again escapism. I think I've said that three times now but so whether well for me literally I have no time ever but well I commute so I will read a book.

Kirstyn DeVries (32:12.9)
Yeah, how does one do that? How does one build that in?

Kim Rowell (32:23.671)
And that for me, again, I was saying like time is my most precious commodity to sit and read a book because something brings me great joy or when I'm getting off the train and I'm walking to the office, I listen to a podcast or I listen to some music and big fan of the Spice Girls and the Pussycat Dolls and these 90s girl bands that are all amazing. Bit of Backstreet Boys in there as well. Or, you know, whether it's just making time for a TV program or

Kirstyn DeVries (32:41.767)
so good.

Kirstyn DeVries (32:49.935)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (32:50.223)
But also it can be something as simple as sending a text to someone that you know loves you and will be welcoming of that an answer or making a short phone call. I've had some amazing moments with my family, my husband and my daughter, but also just doing something silly. Like the other day, I remember, I'm quite old as I say, I say old, I'm in my forties, but there used to be a program called Top of the Pops which would run down the top 40.

Kirstyn DeVries (33:00.549)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (33:14.955)
I remember when I was younger there was a song called number five by Lou Bager but also it was the era of like Will Smith singing Men in Black. So I put Men in Black on and me, my husband and my daughter were all doing and they're bouncing with me, just bouncing with me. We're just doing all this and then just like sliding. Yeah.

Kirstyn DeVries (33:22.694)
So good.

Kirstyn DeVries (33:31.116)
I'm telling you, Kim, there is something to that, right? One of my best moments was Lost Father's Day, driving around with my partner and his 11 and nine year old. And we blasted the music, opened up our four windows of our Tesla and just sang as loud as we could for about 15 minutes. And we were driving through quite a small town at the moment. And that was funny because most other people may not actually take that moment to just be silly. And I love that.

Kim Rowell (33:39.609)
Mm-mm. Yes.

Yeah!

Yeah

Kim Rowell (33:56.176)
think that's it. just forget what anyone thinks of you. my neighbor the other day put this message on my Facebook wall saying loved hearing your daughter singing Wicked last night so she'd been in the shower belting out Defying Gravity. she's not massively on tune but she just didn't give a crap. she was just singing at her own volume and I am really mindful to let her do that because I think

Kirstyn DeVries (34:06.695)
You

Kirstyn DeVries (34:15.662)
Amazing.

Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (34:23.653)
She's not hurting anybody, she's having a great time. She just wants to express herself and that for her is joy. I think children express joy in dance and music and just being able to be their authentic selves and I think you should let them do that.

Kirstyn DeVries (34:30.342)
Mm-hmm. That's beautiful.

Kirstyn DeVries (34:39.752)
Yeah, I think that probably for us it, you know, I actually made a personal goal, go to more concerts this year in 2025. And I think that there is a piece to music and movement that really does heal. So thank you so much for sharing that. How do you know Kim, when it's time to push harder and when it's time to pull back? How do you find that barometer?

Kim Rowell (34:46.713)
Woo!

Kim Rowell (34:52.111)
Yeah.

Kim Rowell (35:01.627)
such a good question. I think that's the best question. I think it's focusing on your own energy. And I talk a lot about a moral compass and knowing the difference between right and wrong. But there's also this big piece around focusing on the things that you can control and not sweating the small stuff and the things that are out of your control because it's just a waste of energy.

If there things that are going to happen that you can have zero influence over. I mean, the thing about my career journey that I didn't reference is I was made redundant three times in a five year period. So between Fremantle and The Telegraph and somewhere else, Channel 4, I didn't mention I'd worked at Channel 4. There you go. I forgot about that entirely. Sorry. But this is what the problem of being massively inconsistent in your career. But the thing was...

Kirstyn DeVries (35:49.609)
wow. It's all the blur.

Yes.

Kim Rowell (35:59.419)
It took me, and those three examples, it happened in a five year period, so it was really consolidated. I was in my mid-20s to early 30s and it wasn't in my control. And it took me a really long time to figure that out. The problem wasn't me, I was always okay. I'd worked at some of the biggest companies in broadcasting in the UK. So ITV, Channel 4, The Telegraph, I've been at the BBC, now at ITN. I am not the problem. The problem is,

the organisation or restructure, not knowing what to do in the digital space, how to monetise it, where to focus, where to invest. mean, look at now, look at AI. If you talked about AI, like two years ago, people. exactly, but when you work in the interactive digital space, things change in a moment. Literally can just be incredibly different and people would still try to figure it out. But it wasn't me that was...

Kirstyn DeVries (36:35.151)
Yeah, what a challenge. Yes. yeah, we would need a whole other podcast. I'm going to ask you about how that's influenced the industry. Yeah.

Kirstyn DeVries (36:52.13)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (36:58.171)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (36:58.574)
the in these situations, but that you take it personally. You have to separate the person from the position and the role because they are two separate things. And like I said, I've always been okay. So therefore you would think that I have the capabilities and the skillsets and this, you know, everything that you need to progress in that area. It's just that the part of that structure or part of that organization isn't for me anymore. you know, but that's a hard, that's a bit of pill to swallow.

for sure, but it's not sweating the small stuff and just leaning into what you can control, focusing on that rather than all this other stuff that's going on around you that you're never gonna have any kind of grasp of.

Kirstyn DeVries (37:28.047)
It is.

Kirstyn DeVries (37:40.614)
I love that lean into what you can control. Yeah. Cause we can't control everything. And that, I mean, for people that know me, they know that I do like structure and I do like control. to have you on the podcast and to hear that, you know, that's something that I'm going to take away. Now as a connector of people, I've always found that I benefit from reaching back into my network and that's.

Kim Rowell (37:43.638)
Absolutely.

Kirstyn DeVries (38:01.375)
what I do on this podcast, I really learn from people's stories and I can really attribute some of my biggest growth moments to incredible mentors and leaders I've encountered throughout my lifetime. Is there a person that has deeply impacted your journey? And if so, what have you learned from them that you still carry with you today?

Kim Rowell (38:20.442)
What I think about with this question is slightly unusual because yes there is and I will come to who these... there's not just one person, there's a couple of people I wanted to mention but I also wanted to just think about popular culture figures because I really feel I was as I was growing up as a young girl like Cher Horowitz in Clueless or Elle Woods in Legally Blonde or Gracie Lu from Miss Congeniality and even Lisa Simpson and...

Kirstyn DeVries (38:28.537)
Okay.

Kim Rowell (38:48.42)
Britney in her 90s glory, all of these people and women and characters and narratives were so formative and fundamental for me as a, you know, I was, you know, 10, 11, 12, 13, those kind of really, really fundamental ages when you're really thinking about who you are, what you want, how you want to show up, your personality, how you want to express yourselves. So I think they, it sounds weird to say that, but I think...

Kirstyn DeVries (38:50.543)
Yes.

Kirstyn DeVries (39:07.217)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (39:15.064)
because you watch these films and I remember watching 10 Things I Hate About You, Julia Stiles and that film that I didn't realise until I started dressing like her. You look back on your personal style and you're like, that was clearly influential.

Kirstyn DeVries (39:17.767)
you

Love that.

Right.

Kirstyn DeVries (39:31.363)
No, but I love that you, mean, Kim, if you weren't the one acknowledging that media figures had influenced you, I don't know who else would, but I love that you're talking about this because I don't think enough people recognize how much the media did influence us as we were young teenagers, right?

Kim Rowell (39:42.875)
completely. I see it, yeah, I see it in my daughter now. She'll say a line, I'll be like, that's from Bluey. Or you know, she's starting to like parrot back things that she's watched even like from a Disney movie or whatever, or even like characters like the Little Mermaid and Belle and Beauty and the Beast and that kind of stuff. And you realise that's how you learn. These are the foundations of...

Kirstyn DeVries (39:50.971)
Yeah.

Kirstyn DeVries (40:00.039)
you

Kim Rowell (40:05.804)
ethics and morals and how you interact with other people and relationships and romantic relationships as well and girlfriend relationships you know and I don't think you can underestimate how powerful popular culture can be and films and music and pop bands and all of this kind of side of things but taking it back to role models as in actual people I think

Kirstyn DeVries (40:12.346)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (40:25.968)
Totally.

Kirstyn DeVries (40:29.924)
Yeah, there's got to be some role models.

Kim Rowell (40:33.338)
There's a lady that we both know, Pinky Lilani, and the way that she manages courage in kindness, which you don't, again kindness is seen as a weakness nine times out of ten, and she's just turned that on her head. She's also got a wicked sense of humour. She is. And her mantra is that you have not lived a full day unless you've done something for someone which they can never repay you.

Kirstyn DeVries (40:44.038)
Hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (40:49.432)
She is an incredible human being.

Kim Rowell (40:59.822)
And I think that as a notion in itself is just quite something. And what she's managed to achieve as a little Indian lady who came over here with not really a clue as to what she was going to do vocationally to have launched is a Women of the Programme initiative, as well as Kindness and Leadership and the Asian Women of Achievement Awards and the ESG Awards and everything she does.

Kirstyn DeVries (41:16.763)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (41:22.404)
I mean, the UK and international reach of her impact of kindness, actually redefines that word. No wonder she's on your list.

Kim Rowell (41:26.69)
Yeah, yeah but I think also like I won that award seven years ago and my daughter was two and I was lost. think I was like career-wise I was a bit lost. I was like what the hell am I doing here and

Kirstyn DeVries (41:34.022)
Hmm.

Kim Rowell (41:46.126)
That recognition and the confidence it gave me and the sense of self-worth, I think as women we just tear ourselves apart before anyone else does. We've already done half the job for them. And for someone to recognise me for everything I'd done, everything I was, but like I say, that was seven years ago and I'm still really involved with their work and to have that affinity and that sense of purpose.

I was just, it has been and still is, so really powerful for me. But I see it in lots of other women that I work with. I was talking about the networks I'm part of and the lady called Ruth Daniel who runs In Place of War, Tabitha Morton who's the Executive Director of UN Women UK, the women on the board of the RTS tech centre when it's primarily men. So you've got Jenny, Cara, Claire, and then there's Sandra and Payal who work on women on boards and you know, all of these women.

Kirstyn DeVries (42:19.312)
So good.

Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (42:41.925)
brilliant women doing great things and trailblazing unabashedly as well. That's the thing. They're not apologising for anything. They're not asking to take up space. They just know that they can and they will and nothing's going to stop them. That's inspiring. That's inspiring.

Kirstyn DeVries (42:42.036)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Kirstyn DeVries (42:48.782)
Yes.

Kirstyn DeVries (42:56.76)
Yes. You know, and sometimes though, when we see people like that in our day to day life, we can go, that's actually intimidating. I'm not sure about that. But what I love is you get around these people and you purposely put yourself in rooms next to them or you figure out how you can actually work with them. And I love that about you. And so what is a goal or vision you're working towards, Kim, that scares you just a little? And what does that stretch demand of you?

Kim Rowell (43:06.553)
Mmm.

Kim Rowell (43:10.329)
Yeah.

Kim Rowell (43:20.301)
and this is really fascinating. And I've worked with mentors and coaches and they're always like, why do you not ever identify something specific as a goal? the thing is, I think I've always been, I was an accidental journalist. Like I said, I came through it, came to journalism, I studied it and I went to television and I kind of came back reluctantly again and here I am. And I also have been accidentally disruptive, but I think.

Kirstyn DeVries (43:38.352)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (43:46.5)
kind of semi not accidentally disruptive as well. And I think that's because I get riled by a sense of injustice on a micro or a macro level. If someone has affronted, not me, I'm talking about me, I'm talking about like minor injustices, but also that the biggest thing like I'd love world peace, but you know, the kind of, I am motivated and driven towards a cause. And like we were just saying, being in a room full of people who share that energy.

Kirstyn DeVries (43:54.896)
Mm.

Kirstyn DeVries (44:15.374)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (44:15.479)
and that synergy and you're all aligned. I want to be a part of a policy changing movement that literally makes me wanna get up in the morning and like you literally jump. I want something to make me jump out of bed. And I think I've yet to find a role. That's the thing. That thing is I don't wanna pinpoint it to a role because I feel like my career and the stuff that I do out of it.

Kirstyn DeVries (44:26.895)
Yes.

Kirstyn DeVries (44:31.417)
Yes.

Kirstyn DeVries (44:36.39)
Mm.

Kirstyn DeVries (44:40.271)
Right.

Kirstyn DeVries (44:45.186)
Mm-hmm.

Kim Rowell (44:45.197)
They are kind of one in the same. I would like to obviously merge them a little bit more, but I know to just...

Kirstyn DeVries (44:50.04)
Yeah. Can we just define it as policy making impact? You don't need a role title. You can bring the energy that does that.

Kim Rowell (44:53.761)
I think so. I think so. This, I think so. And it's what gets me going. And it's, you know, it's the reason for, you know, I think I do appreciate it. I do find it quite hard because my dad, I love him to bits and he drives a school bus for a school in Oxford and he bloody loves it. And I just want to find that level of contentment in something. But for me, it's more about passion and

Kirstyn DeVries (45:00.528)
So good.

Kim Rowell (45:23.371)
change and being the best version of yourself and the reason for living, that kind of thing.

Kirstyn DeVries (45:30.586)
Mm-hmm. I love that. And I know that even right now, you're doing so much of that through a lot of the initiatives that you run, but also in being a mother to your incredible daughter, you're doing that already. And so I can't wait to see where you continue to make change. For our listeners, is there something that you're doing consistently or perhaps in the background and unseen that is driving your success?

Kim Rowell (45:53.338)
I think it is being tenacious. I've seen a lot of people with an immense amount of talent give up really quickly or they'll start something, I don't know, like a project, podcast, something, you know, whatever it is. And they'll be like, oh, I'm not getting the traction I want, I'm not getting the gate, you know, oh. And it's just like, well, hang on a sec, like give yourself a chance, like let it run, maybe take a pause.

Kirstyn DeVries (46:20.804)
Yes.

Kim Rowell (46:23.289)
Have a look back, reflect, think. I think the primary thing is like, is it making you happy? Are you doing it for the right reasons? Is it bringing you joy? If it's serving the initial purpose, is it giving you something more? Has it expanded your network? Has it expanded your intelligence? Has it taught you something? Has it challenged you? Has it built your resilience? Has it, you know, because it's not just this one measure of success in any one thing.

Kirstyn DeVries (46:48.207)
Hmm.

Kim Rowell (46:52.471)
is about the context of it and the reason you did it in the first place because I think to have started anything is phenomenal. So I've literally been like, I'm focusing my energy to do this project and I'm going to give it my best shot. So if you're giving it a shot, give yourself a chance. Like I say, we self sabotage. I I didn't work, did it bloody hell. And it's like, it's not that at all. Like take stock.

Kirstyn DeVries (46:58.821)
Hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (47:02.405)
Hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (47:09.741)
Yeah.

Kirstyn DeVries (47:15.449)
Yeah.

Kim Rowell (47:17.337)
take a breath, take a beat. And I think that's also what redundancy taught me as well because up until then I just rolled with it. I just carried on and carried on and carried on. And was like, hang on a sec, whoa, stop. Am I happy? Let's assess this moment now. And it can give you that like, okay, cool. Right, actually I'm gonna pivot a bit that way and I'm gonna change these things but I'm still gonna go on this path because I feel like I've invested in it now. So it's the tenacity and like don't give up on yourself. Never give up on yourself.

Kirstyn DeVries (47:21.285)
Hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (47:41.701)
Hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (47:46.373)
That is an incredible takeaway, the tenacity being tenacious and not giving up. I have one final question for you Kim and that is what does purpose mean to you right now?

Kim Rowell (47:58.297)
Purpose to me is legacy but in the sense of making things better. But again this is old adage of like, oh someone should do something about that. You are someone, be that someone. You know, that's the sense of purpose. Like if you see something you're not happy with, again on the micro or macro scale, do something about it. Because again, it takes effort and I know...

Kirstyn DeVries (48:08.996)
Hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (48:24.997)
Hmm.

Kim Rowell (48:27.966)
the of the day you can be completely exhausted. I've had those moments, I've had moments of know burnout being really worn down but you know the sense of purpose and hope. I listened to Jacinda Ardern talk, she was promoting her most recent book and she said the question she gets about polarised politics are like my god what is there an answer like there is no answer is there and she was like well yeah there is, there's there's hope, there's the belief in the persistence and in the sense that

There are sectors of society that do think like you do, that do want things to be better. You cannot lose hope. And I think that's, that for me again gave me goosebumps and a sense of like, yeah, she's onto something there.

Kirstyn DeVries (49:06.831)
you

Kirstyn DeVries (49:14.337)
I love that. Kim, it's been so incredible. I feel like I've taken so many themes from this and, you know, one is the storytelling piece. You know, I loved when you talked about storytelling at the beginning. One of the other takeaways was the news is the exception. The news is the exception. And honestly, I think that that's something that almost took me down a notch and gone, wow, I can just take a breath. You know, you spoke about mental health, you spoke about well-being, you talked about shedding light on world issues. I love how you said also.

Kim Rowell (49:34.508)
Yeah.

Kirstyn DeVries (49:43.269)
Separate the person from the position. Lean into what you can control. Have hope. Create a legacy and be tenacious. So, yeah. So if people want to follow your journey, how can they go find you?

Kim Rowell (49:51.544)
Easy peasy, right?

Kim Rowell (49:59.404)
My social handles are at kimraltv. I'm not really on X. I am on X but I'm not I think like most people but and LinkedIn I think that's where most of my conversations happen so yeah please add me and I will very happily... yeah please do we're on Spotify we're on pop bean we're on apple podcasts so yeah search women of the future wherever you get your podcast from and you will be able to find us but yeah we've had over

Kirstyn DeVries (50:12.345)
And what about your Women of the Future podcast episodes of there?

Kim Rowell (50:25.976)
100 episodes, primarily women, there's a few men in there, we've got a few men on and we've recently done a motherhood series. We've got one coming up on male allyship actually so that's a good one to listen out to and yeah it's been really fun to do it and I thank you for inviting me on yours.

Kirstyn DeVries (50:42.198)
it's been an incredible conversation and thank you so much. I hope that you have a great rest of your evening. Bye bye.

Kim Rowell (50:48.32)
You too, thank you.