Ep 10. / Nicholas Turco ~ Elite Mountain Runner, UN Consultant

Nicholas Turco is a professional mountain runner and international human rights advocate whose career bridges athletics, law, and social impact. 

Ranked among the top 30 mountain runners in the world, Nicholas has competed on the Golden Trail World Series and represented brands like Salomon and INOV8. But his influence extends beyond the trails.

As a Savit Scholar at the University of Colorado Boulder, Nicholas envisioned and spearheaded the university’s first NCAA scholarship program to harness the voices of Division I athletes for LGBTQ+ advocacy. Known as the Colorado Athletics Visibility Award, the initiative empowers athletes to design and lead social impact projects, with recipients awarded $20,000 scholarships. Nicholas partnered with CU’s advancement team to secure $80,000 in seed funding, laying the foundation for a program that continues to drive visibility, inclusion, and well-being in athletics.

His professional journey also includes legal research for the Office of the Alternate Defense Counsel, work with the United Nations and the Centre for Sport and Human Rights, and contributions to groundbreaking research at the intersection of sport, neuroscience, and peacebuilding. Nicholas’s academic achievements span from a summa cum laude degree at CU Boulder to a Master of Laws in Geneva, where his thesis explored how sports can transform discrimination into peacebuilding capital.

Episode Highlights: 

1. Nicholas Turco shares his journey from a school sports enthusiast to a professional trail runner and consultant at the United Nations, blending his passion for athleticism with advocacy work.
2. Nicholas discusses the challenges and rewards of mountain running, highlighting the dynamic and exciting nature of the sport that connects people with nature.
3. He opens up about his personal struggles with race day anxiety and how working with a sports psychologist helped him overcome these challenges through biofeedback techniques.
4. Nicholas talks about his advocacy work as an openly LGBT athlete, emphasizing the importance of belonging and representation in sports.
5. He introduces his current project with the International Olympic Committee, aiming to create Olympic Athlete Ambassadors to support UN mandates for peace, human rights, and humanitarian affairs.

Transcript

Kirstyn DeVries (00:00.635)
Morning, Nicholas. It is incredible to have you on the podcast today.

Nicholas (00:05.066)
Hi Kristen, thanks so much for having me, I'm stoked to be here.

Kirstyn DeVries (00:08.431)
Amazing. Well, we're recording this the day after you and I have been up in the mountains near Boulder for quite a long run with a group of folks from the Run Boulder Athletic Club. How are you feeling today?

Nicholas (00:21.067)
Yeah, yeah, we had a run together at 9,000 feet yesterday up on Rollinsville Road, which is a very famous road in Boulder where a lot of athletes do their training. And yeah, I'm feeling a little tired today, but I have my morning coffee. And so I'm feeling good and excited to be here.

Kirstyn DeVries (00:41.137)
Amazing. And yeah, I mean, there's no joke that to run at altitude is an incredible experience, but also challenging for someone like me that comes from sea level. So thanks to you guys from the team that really kept me motivated. Now, listen, I have you invited on today because when we spoke over the last couple of weeks, I have learned an immense amount about your story and

how it is that you have intertwined your passion for not only athleticism, but for helping in a wider manner through the work that you do. And we'll get into that in just a moment. But for the audience, what I'd love to start out with is you just taking us through the story of your career and personal journey and how that led to where you are today.

Nicholas (01:18.454)
Thank you.

Nicholas (01:29.269)
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm a professional trail runner or mountain runner. And as well as I am working as a consultant at the United Nations for the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights. So yeah, my journey blending those two parts of my career has definitely been one that has brought me to some amazing places.

It's been really crazy at times, like anyone striving for big goals. But it's also been incredibly rewarding. And of course, it's still going with lots of twists and turns and ups and downs, like everybody. So.

Kirstyn DeVries (02:09.018)
Yes, unpack mountain running for our listeners. What is that?

Nicholas (02:13.184)
Yeah, yeah. So mountain running is growing a lot globally right now, but it's basically take your traditional running and then put it in the most crazy landscape you can imagine. maybe, you know, there's lots of different disciplines within mountain running. It's kind of almost like you could take track and field and you could have that many different sort of variations in the events in mountain running.

There's like your ultras, which are most known, which are like those hundred mile races, like Western States and Leadville and the Ultra Trail du Mont Blanc and Chamonix. And those are, that is kind of what most people think of when they hear mountain running, these epic like long journeys through the mountains, hundred miles. And then you also have like 100 kilometers, 50 kilometers. And then you have what is being classified right now as sub ultra.

where you're having some half marathons, marathons. But the basic premise to any of it is that you're running off road, whether that's a winding, beautiful trail through California, near the coast, or an epic sky race where you're up to the summit, near the summits of the Alps, and down on crazy technical terrain. And so it's a really dynamic, exciting sport because it connects people with nature. And you're still competing, but you're also really...

Kirstyn DeVries (03:34.086)
Absolutely.

Nicholas (03:37.066)
you're really getting to see some amazing places.

Kirstyn DeVries (03:39.834)
So cool. So you're doing that today. Now take us back to how you got into not only the mountain running, but your journey and the work that you're doing today with the UN and how that all links together.

Nicholas (03:50.858)
Yeah, okay, well, mean, starting off with getting into running, like many people growing up in the US, there's a lot of school sports and that's a, and I tried the classic ones like soccer and ice hockey, actually. My favorite was actually ice hockey when I was a kid. And, well, in all sports involving objects, I...

was very fast, but I could never score or pass. And that hand iconization was never there, so I'd have like lot of breakaways in hockey and just like the puck would just like go off to the side. And I was like, wow. Precisely. And then when I found running, I mean, I instantly fell in love with it. It was middle school. I did a camp because my mom said that

Kirstyn DeVries (04:18.298)
Yeah.

Kirstyn DeVries (04:25.958)
Right. So all the speed but not all of the coordination.

Nicholas (04:39.371)
we weren't driving down to the town below us to do soccer because it was just like over the top and I could do the local sports. So I tried cross country. I got second at my first race and I think a combination between like, a combination between being good at it and then also just finding that like flow instantly when I did it, it just hooked me on it. And 17 years later, still doing it.

Kirstyn DeVries (05:02.726)
That's incredible. Wow. So you did that first cross country race, came second, felt this amazing momentum where you just had finally something that happened naturally. And then you took it through what sounds like that whole schooling journey and into college and now post collegiate running. Can you share for the audience what a typical day in your life looks like? And how would you manage a training workload with the work that you're doing on your calendar right now?

with the UN.

Nicholas (05:32.169)
Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, I think honestly, a typical day in my life can look really, really different. But the best way to frame it during the season is so I'm doing a world series called the Golden Trail World Series. And it's a really exciting series. There's eight races across the world right now on three different continents and maybe next year on four.

which means that you're, it's kind of like the best way I describe it for people who haven't heard of it is it's sort of like the Tour de France in that you're just going a lot in your competition season. And so that means that I get the privilege to travel a lot during my season, but that also, so like a typical day can look super different. if it's a competition, I'm like traveling to a different country, maybe training for a couple of weeks there before then racing. And so,

I always balance, like I'm really lucky because I can work remotely. So, but like a typical day, I'll get up on like a hard day and I'll do my workout in the morning. Then I'll come back, like I'll recover, I'll work in the middle of the day. Then I'll do my second run and weights in the afternoon and then I'll work more in the evening and then I'll go to bed. But definitely like one thing I've needed to learn is that

Kirstyn DeVries (06:25.702)
Mm-hmm.

Nicholas (06:50.323)
You can compare yourself very easily in both of these careers because you can see like that person's running more or that person's working more. And you know, there's some like, there's some professionals who, anyone who really cares about their job and often like they might be working until midnight on something and, and they, and they get up and they keep going. And I've had to really learn that like quality over quantity is a really true thing. And if you get in,

Kirstyn DeVries (06:56.965)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (07:05.51)
Mm-hmm.

Nicholas (07:16.586)
the work you need to and you do it well and maybe you just have one really important call that day, like that matters. And then that recovery is actually what's gonna let you keep going. And that's been a huge learning curve for me. I have not always been good at that. And it's the same thing with training. You can really think, oh, well, this person is doing more than me, but that more is not always better. And so, yes, the typical day, I really kind of like...

segment like blocks. I'm like, like this block is like, I'm really focused on training and racing, on racing. And so like, I'm not going to work as much during that block. I communicate that and I, I focus on that, but then it can be like, okay, this, this block, I'm not racing. And so like, I'm really going to focus more on getting this project done so I can communicate it to the, to the people I'm working for. And it's, it's a lot of flexibility, honestly. And it's a lot of glowing with the flow. Cause

If you clamp down too tight on it, could really, it can go wrong. But if you communicate and go with the flow, it's exciting. I don't know if that's, yeah.

Kirstyn DeVries (08:24.098)
Yeah. Yeah. And I completely relate to the examples that you gave where a lot of the time, and I think this is fairly common with people that not only are driven professionally, but also in sport is actually the recovery from the sport is almost a good analogy, at least that I have been using, you know, as I stepped out of a full-time career to come into some consulting work, I've been using that school of thought now in the same way that there's recovery from, a difficult workout.

I can bring that into that premise that you referred to where there might be one call or one meeting that day, but that can be with a hundred percent of my energy if I've recovered that energy from the day before and it can be delivered with, you know, passion and gusto and good quality. And yeah, I was definitely not great at that either. And I think probably for most of us, that's a continual learning. Right. And especially with the pressure of societal

Nicholas (09:00.871)
huh.

Yeah, it is. Yeah.

Kirstyn DeVries (09:20.792)
attributes and pressures around being able to show up and put in those hours and sort of this I mean probably less so post pandemic but sort of that presence presenteeism online on zoom in office etc. Right. So yeah kudos to you for really honing that balance. Now I know that you do some advocacy work as well and I know many of our listeners are leading in businesses and sport and creative industries. Can you share a little bit about some

Nicholas (09:32.111)
Hmm

Kirstyn DeVries (09:48.826)
you know, new paths that you've trailblazed in either schools of thought or advocacy for others throughout this running career.

Nicholas (09:48.84)
it.

Nicholas (09:56.199)
Yeah, absolutely. As an athlete, you mean, right? Yeah, absolutely. And leaning into what you're saying, think, yeah, it's really true. It's a work in progress. But yeah, as far as advocacy work, I think a lot of my journey in sport. So I'm an openly LGBT and openly gay athlete. And I've come out publicly in college my freshman year running at university.

Kirstyn DeVries (09:58.456)
Yes.

Kirstyn DeVries (10:06.138)
haha

Nicholas (10:24.499)
for Western Colorado University. And I think that that journey for everybody in sport and life really, just finding a sense of belonging and finding the people who are gonna lift you up and who you can lift up, that's a journey we all experience. But of course it's a unique journey in sport. And I think that I've also grown a lot in it and finding, like for me what's really important is that

Kirstyn DeVries (10:33.583)
Mm-hmm.

Nicholas (10:54.172)
Just like this simple message of like, you dream, you belong. because I think that we all have these crazy dreams, right? I mean, and we all look at them and we're like, wow, like, can I do that? Can someone like me do that? It can be, and it can be any reason. Like it can be, can someone with this physical capability or someone, or like there aren't people who look like me.

Kirstyn DeVries (10:59.557)
I love that.

Nicholas (11:17.704)
in this Saphir of accomplishment and the basic truth is if you have a dream, you belong in that space. And I think that in sport there's been of course historical discrimination against women and LGBT people and we're seeing a lot of discrimination now against transgender people and intersex people and that's, you know, it is real challenge and a real problem that needs to be changed in society but that like...

Kirstyn DeVries (11:18.127)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (11:25.935)
Mm.

Nicholas (11:44.908)
simple truth of like if you have a dream in a space you belong in that space and and you know like one of the professional like that like when the athletes I look up to of course like all the openly gay LGBT athletes and not just gay openly LGBT athletes who have accomplished amazing things and One thing that I quote that I just heard Listening to Nico Young the track star was some saying something about how like

Kirstyn DeVries (12:02.853)
Mm-hmm.

Nicholas (12:14.554)
It can be really easy to put this pressure on, like you have to perform to like prove that you belong and that that like performance means something and to like, it's so easy to put that pressure on yourself because you want to belong so bad but like he said something and I'm butchering it but of like reminding yourself that like that's not true. That like you belong just because of who you are. And I think that's also really

Kirstyn DeVries (12:19.065)
Yeah.

Kirstyn DeVries (12:28.005)
Mm.

Kirstyn DeVries (12:36.73)
Right.

Yeah, rather than performance focused and that and your belonging being tied to some sort of action that you've been, you know, striving for. I mean, that's people pleasing really at its core, right? And that can be an unhealthy level of people pleasing if you go swing in that direction. But I think we're all sometimes prone to that. So I love that that quote and that adaptation of sort of that phrasing on sort of just belonging. I love that. Can you tell us about a moment

Nicholas (12:48.592)
Yeah. Yeah.

Nicholas (12:58.801)
Yeah, exactly.

Nicholas (13:07.655)
way.

Kirstyn DeVries (13:08.429)
Nicholas, where you got thrown off pace professionally or personally. know when you were you and I were chatting in the prep for this conversation, there's been a lot of interesting challenges that you've overcome. Can you share one of those moments and what happened and then how did you find your rhythm again?

Nicholas (13:25.108)
Yeah, absolutely. So I think a really, the best example of that for me as an athlete is that I would have a lot of performance, like race day anxiety, and it would really impact like how I raced in it. It really like started early years in high school. And I like did a lot of work on it, like a lot of mental

therapy, like also just like mental approach, be positive, a lot of work on that. And it would ebb and flow and there's definitely improvement. But I kind of just thought that what I was going through is normal because I would get basically like panic attacks, like freezes like at the day, like the week before I was sad, feel like frozen. I, it felt sort of like I was going to war or something just ridiculous. Like, like, and I started to think like, oh, that's just, that's just normal. Like we're, and then I started to like,

Kirstyn DeVries (14:19.183)
Mm.

Nicholas (14:20.846)
realized that what I was going through was not what other people would experience, pre-, and we talk about like, it's good not to compare yourself, right? But there is a certain amount of like, awareness with other people around you that I think can really help us, like, wait, is this what I'm going through actually? is that like healthy? And I realized it wasn't. And so I did a lot of medical tests this year working with my coach and with doctors and,

Kirstyn DeVries (14:29.413)
Mm.

Nicholas (14:48.31)
And then so I started working with a sports psychologist at the US Olympic and Paralympic Training Center. Well, not at the training center, but with US OPC. And he really helped me. Like, we talked about it and he was like, I think something like physical is going on. It's not just like, you shouldn't just say like you have a mental problem. Like, and so it was so helpful working with this, this brilliant sports psychologist, Mack, Mack Brown. He's, he's incredible. And

Kirstyn DeVries (15:11.96)
Wow.

Nicholas (15:14.022)
So I did these tests and I realized that was having like, my cortisol had like drained to the point that like, it wouldn't like activate properly under stress environments. And so it basically was, it was crazy. They put like ACTH, the like hormone that stimulates cortisol directly into my bloodstream and like measured it and it would barely like go over the normal threshold. But under like athletics, that's of course like something that looks normal in just like a normal setting.

Kirstyn DeVries (15:24.837)
Hey.

Kirstyn DeVries (15:37.775)
Right.

Kirstyn DeVries (15:43.033)
Mm-hmm.

Nicholas (15:43.574)
is not the same case when you're pushing your body to compete at these, like you're taxing your body to extreme levels. And so I would get confused because I'm like, well, I don't feel like this before a speech, but why do I feel like this before a race? And it was like that physical aspect of racing made it made that like depletion of that hormone that was supposed to like amp you up when you're performing. Not enough. But anyway, I started the doctor actually couldn't put me on hormones, but I adapted through

Kirstyn DeVries (15:55.396)
Yes.

Kirstyn DeVries (16:03.779)
you

Nicholas (16:11.846)
Instead, by using this biofeedback technique that my sports psychologist worked with me on, where it regulates you back down to baseline, and we practiced it through normal time, and then during race time, I just kept my normal practice going, and it really started changing things for me. That plus some natural adrenal support. yeah, so gosh.

Kirstyn DeVries (16:28.375)
Okay.

Kirstyn DeVries (16:33.262)
So it was consistency of the habits that you implemented from the learnings you got from this medical practitioner. And then it sounds like what you did was almost just consistently in times of non-stress, bring forward exactly what you were doing into the moments where traditionally you would have gone into almost a frozen sort of panic attack type of reaction.

Nicholas (16:55.748)
Yes.

Nicholas (16:59.29)
Yeah, that's exactly what I did. it was really like a healing journey and a fascinating journey to realize that sometimes you can put all this pressure on just being better, just having a better attitude, but trusting your body and figuring out what actually needs to change and having confidence in yourself. And then it's amazing to your point when you just do something continually in a non-stress environment.

Kirstyn DeVries (17:01.431)
Okay.

Kirstyn DeVries (17:13.593)
Mm-hmm.

Nicholas (17:29.283)
and building that baseline, moving it over to a stress environment. I think we often think that changes need to be monumental, but they actually can be really the differences in what I did. If someone saw my usual day, they wouldn't notice the difference. But it was just these small things like bedtime was an hour and a half earlier. I did the biofeedback every time I woke up, every time I went to bed.

Kirstyn DeVries (17:43.908)
Mm-hmm.

Nicholas (17:52.46)
And that, and then those changes, I lined up for my next race and like so much pressure had to come off of me. And my body felt regulated and yeah, to your point.

Kirstyn DeVries (17:58.65)
Wow.

Kirstyn DeVries (18:02.084)
What does a race morning feel like now that it's regulated? And does it physically look different in your mornings and how you spend your time?

Nicholas (18:09.573)
I mean, so of course, any time you race it's still, it's still, you're, you're nervous and it's not like you're just Zen or anything like it. But the difference for me is that when I line up and the gun goes off, I used to have this thing where it felt sort of like the blood was like draining out of my body and I couldn't like get into my rhythm. And now I felt this, especially the Broken Arrow Sky Race was the first race that it like changed. I just felt

Kirstyn DeVries (18:13.559)
Yeah.

Kirstyn DeVries (18:17.366)
Absolutely not.

Kirstyn DeVries (18:27.492)
Hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (18:36.95)
Mm-hmm.

Nicholas (18:38.678)
very grounded in my body and I've also been focusing on using my heart rate zones to focus on my effort because then you don't, you can really like, you can go, this is just for anyone, you can go too far into the wrong zone when you're racing a marathon too early and it can really blow up your race. So.

Kirstyn DeVries (18:55.778)
Yeah, which you and I spoke about last week while we were running. And so I'm fascinated in it. I'm going to be looking into this because it sounds like it's been super beneficial to you.

Nicholas (19:01.41)
Yes.

It's been really beneficial, but focusing on myself in the start of the race and not having that sensation of losing all your energy in the first 800 meters or mile has been, yeah, that's been the biggest difference. And then you're able to focus in on what you're doing in the moment instead of what everyone else is doing. And then you can run like you're used to running.

Kirstyn DeVries (19:19.8)
Wow.

Kirstyn DeVries (19:28.406)
Mm-hmm. I think it really speaks to the fact that, you know, helping find out what we're struggling with can sometimes only be done in the presence of others. Meaning like it took conversations of not only you admitting that you were struggling with these elements of almost fear and anxiety, but then it took people who actually specialize and it almost take the pressure off your shoulders in that moment of going, yeah, it's not just in your mind. It is actually physical. And what an amazing

Nicholas (19:56.781)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kirstyn DeVries (19:57.989)
world that we live in where we can actually if we admit our challenges and then bring those to the people that can help us find the solutions really how much faster we can move forward.

Nicholas (20:09.624)
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think it's leaning into the people around you and then the technology around you, the solutions around you and not judging yourself so harshly. I I think we all can just judge ourselves so harshly if something isn't going right. And it's really often that's like so antithetical to actually solving it. It makes it work.

Kirstyn DeVries (20:20.43)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (20:28.248)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (20:33.59)
Yeah. Now the next piece ties in a little bit to what you've just been talking about, but do you have a non-negotiable or a system or habit in your routine, Nicholas, that pulls you back when everything feels off course?

Nicholas (20:48.067)
Hmm.

good question. mean, I can talk a little bit about the biofeedback practice that I just learned about where it's a breath breathing thing, basically it matches sound to your breath rate. And then you listen to the sounds of waves and stuff, but it matches your breath rate exactly. then it basically measures

Kirstyn DeVries (20:56.708)
Absolutely.

Nicholas (21:19.649)
when your heart rate is the lowest and when your body is at the most resting and then that breath rate is actually what will reset your vagal tone back to baseline. So that is definitely been something I've been incorporating and sometimes I forget to do it. But I also think like in general for me just like something that I...

Like every day I'm actually gonna answer that question by saying that like I need human connection in my day and that's a non-negotiable. But I also need time by myself and that's also a non-negotiable. And I think that sometimes like when we're high performing in anything, it's so important I think to like just have those connections. I don't know, I think a non-negotiable is I need to connect with my family and my friends.

Kirstyn DeVries (21:56.025)
Yes.

Kirstyn DeVries (22:10.979)
Mm.

Nicholas (22:11.822)
and remember that happiness. And then also though, I need just that little bit of time where it's just me, even if I'm working, it's just that time to go into myself. I think an example is my music. If I'm working, I need to be listening to music. And it's just, I can't not. And I think there's those just little stimulus of connection and also self-time that really can keep us balanced, even if they're really tiny.

Kirstyn DeVries (22:21.942)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (22:30.989)
Great.

Kirstyn DeVries (22:40.515)
Yeah, I mean, I was just reading something the other day about how, you know, we almost have this pandemic of loneliness right now in the West. And a lot of people, especially in their 20s and 30s, don't actually have the ability or the network to have these open, you know, family and friend connections. And so I find it deeply impactful that you mentioned that as one of your non-negotiables is making sure you have this contact, you know, in sort of collaboration with the fact that you need

your alone time as well. And actually, this is an incredible segue into the next question, and that is there a person in your life, Nicholas, that has deeply impacted your journey? And what have you learned from them that you still carry with you?

Nicholas (23:24.29)
That's such a great question, Kristin. I think it's such a hard one person to pick kind of thing. I think that honestly, I, like, I think that my secrets, my like secret to anything that I have accomplished in my life is that I try to surround myself with the best people and the people who, who really believe in me. And that is like a comprehensive experience for me. Like, I think nothing,

Kirstyn DeVries (23:28.963)
Totally.

Nicholas (23:54.121)
good or great is done alone. And I've had just so many countless mentors and support systems. I do have to name my mom in the fact that she does just wholeheartedly believe in me, but in a very supportive, genuine, open way. Some of the things that I've struggled with, I would have never gone to them if I didn't like.

Kirstyn DeVries (23:58.692)
Mm.

Kirstyn DeVries (24:18.115)
That's amazing.

Kirstyn DeVries (24:22.083)
Mm.

Nicholas (24:22.827)
talk to her about it and she didn't help me figure it out. Or crazy dreams I had wouldn't have come true if I didn't say, want to do this and we figured out how to get it done. I have to give some, I'm going to be really transparent here. I am now working with the UN because I interned at the UN and internships at the UN are, they're not paid. And so my mom paid for me to do it for

six months in Geneva and that's that's a huge gift, right? Like it's privileged and I know that, but also like the truth is I think we tell ourselves these stories of like, you have to do it alone. And I think that's just so not true. And then I can, I can lean into like my coaches, my, like my mentors at, in like,

Kirstyn DeVries (24:54.017)
What an incredible gift. Yeah. Yes.

Nicholas (25:17.189)
I've worked also at a law firm for a really long time before moving into international affairs. When I got my masters, I thought I wanted to go to law school. like Jonathan at the Office of Alternative Defense Counsel, who's my mentor there, like in the background, he's always just said anything that I, any like, I want to go to Stanford. He'd say, okay, I'll let you let her work. And then he'd, I'd be like, I want to work for the UN. He's like, okay, you can also work for us on the weekends when you're working for the UN in Geneva. And like those people who kind of.

Kirstyn DeVries (25:43.437)
Wow.

Nicholas (25:46.337)
have your back no matter what. Also that...

Kirstyn DeVries (25:47.83)
Mm-hmm. But also who those people that allow you to follow your passions while you're still engaging and helping them in the way that you best can. I love how they're your champions from afar or from close by.

Nicholas (25:52.651)
Mm-hmm.

Nicholas (25:58.229)
Yeah.

Nicholas (26:01.621)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And those people that are willing to think outside of the box with you. But, also any team you make, I think you should be thinking about pulling the best people together around you. Like the project I'm working on now, I intentionally reached out to other researchers who had the best research out there at universities I didn't go to. And I cold called them and said, well, you'd be part of this project because I think your research is very on point and fascinating and.

Kirstyn DeVries (26:02.882)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (26:07.01)
Mm-hmm.

Nicholas (26:29.31)
that intent and now they are working with me. And I think that intentionality of I want to be surrounded by people that lift me up and inspire me, even if I have to work hard to make that connection, I think that's a really important part to succeeding.

Kirstyn DeVries (26:37.571)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (26:42.733)
Would you mind sharing a little bit about the project that you're working on if you're able to? It's super inspiring and I would love our audience to hear about what you're advocating for right now.

Nicholas (26:46.388)
Yeah.

Nicholas (26:52.221)
Yeah, I would love to and please cut me off if I blab on about it too long. But yeah, absolutely. I'm basically the project that I'm working on there. There's two main tiers to it. But the first main tier is we're just bringing to the International Olympic Committee right now a proposal to create Olympic Athlete Ambassadors for the United Nations mandates of peace, human rights and humanitarian affairs.

Kirstyn DeVries (26:55.518)
haha

Nicholas (27:20.032)
And the concept there is that we want to lean into the visibility of top level Olympians to support financing for these mandates for peace, human rights, humanitarian affairs. So the main pitch here on this aspect is that when the Olympic sponsors sign activation deals with

with the Olympics, they can sign an additional social impact activation where they're using the visibility of athlete ambassadors to then fund a peace building project or fund the dire need of humanitarian affairs that we see right now, fund human rights monitoring instruments that the office of the high commissioner is responsible for. And the concept is that you're leveraging the power of sport to...

Kirstyn DeVries (28:11.797)
Mm-hmm.

Nicholas (28:13.855)
have companies lean in in a really meaningful way through athlete ambassador visibility. And then the second tier of the project is athlete ambassadors. want their work to be informed, but to be neuroscience informed. So one thing I'm really interested in and passionate about is how can neuroscience inform law and policymaking because it's the best tool we have to understand the way humans actually function. And so

Kirstyn DeVries (28:18.178)
Yes.

Nicholas (28:42.11)
decisions like actors, especially in these really complex situations like peace building, like actors aren't actually acting in rational ways always like they think they are. There's a lot of trauma and PTSD and geopolitical tensions and things we know, but sometimes we can really misjudge what is actually needed in these situations. So we're also launching a neuroscience study to understand how can athlete ambassadors have a neuroscience informed approach to

Kirstyn DeVries (28:48.075)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (28:58.797)
Mm-hmm.

Nicholas (29:11.912)
to, for example, use sport to address conflict and the economic parts of conflict that keep it going. Sport, of course, can be part of bringing people out of those situations that make it really hard to have a sustaining peace.

Kirstyn DeVries (29:16.738)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (29:23.511)
Mm-hmm.

Nicholas (29:32.231)
And so, yeah, we want, I'm working with the University of Brown and the neuroscience director at the University of Brown for effective neuroscience, which is cognitive and emotional neuroscience, and then Duke Law School's co-director of their international law clinic. And we are launching a neuroscience study in tandem with the United Nations to inform the work of athlete ambassadors, but also to go beyond that and just continue to expand research that has been done, but is really still emerging in that area of neuroscience and.

peace building.

Kirstyn DeVries (30:02.88)
Wow, what an interesting collaboration in that I haven't seen and I'm deeply interested in movement and athletics and sport and haven't yet seen what you've mentioned where there's this incredible power, not only in the fact that these athletes have a deep following already, but actually many people that I meet in public facing roles, including athletes, really are looking for a way to find the connection between their sport

and a way to help the community, the wider purpose, and often in a way that fits in with their schedule. But what an amazing opportunity to open doors for people to continue to thrive in their sport, but then become ambassadors for these major themes that are at the heart of the UN, like peacemaking. And I love that throughout that project, you're also focusing on sort of, the neuroscience piece.

Nicholas (30:39.966)
Okay.

Kirstyn DeVries (31:00.93)
Yeah, I can't wait to hear more about what sort of impact that is going to make. Now, this is potentially tied into the next question, but is there a vision or goal within that or perhaps outside of that that scares you just a little? And what does that stretch demand of you?

Nicholas (31:02.07)
Okay.

Thank

Nicholas (31:17.747)
Definitely. I think that a lot of the goals that I set for myself scare me. And I think that that a lot of I think that holds true to a lot of us. I mean, I think that it's really easy to set that, if you will, to set that smart goal, to set the goal that you actually know is achievable. And I think it's a little harder to set a goal that's

Kirstyn DeVries (31:24.386)
you

Kirstyn DeVries (31:41.527)
Mm-hmm.

Nicholas (31:44.9)
just beyond that achievable. it's not that the reality is that it's not that it isn't achievable. It's that you could do everything right and it still might not happen. And I think that that's, yeah, absolutely. I think that that's the space that we're working in as athletes, as entrepreneurs, as researchers, any musicians, anything that you're trying to create something that has a legacy.

Kirstyn DeVries (31:55.86)
Okay, say more about that.

Nicholas (32:13.147)
I think that the reality in that space is that you could do everything right and it could still fall apart. And I think, you know, I was talking to my best friend, Lauren Gregory, who is like my, she's just an amazing athlete, incredible athlete. And like we were talking about this, this, this feeling of like, yeah, you can do everything right, but what if like you do that and then the truth is, that it's not in your control. And so I think that this, this space of

Yeah, you can pitch an idea, but it comes down to things that are outside of your control. It's the truth. You can train so well, be of the best shape in the world, and someone else is better than you. Or it didn't go well that day. Or anything. You could have tripped. that holds true to these... I mean, for me, I...

I'm really lucky that I'm one of three American men this year to make the Golden Trail World Final. But I want to continue on. I want to represent Team USA and the World Champs in 2027. I fell short of that goal this year. I want trail running to be in the Olympics, and I would want to run in the Olympics. Yeah.

Kirstyn DeVries (33:20.224)
Yes, you and I spoke about the fact that there's a whole advocacy around trying to get trail running. it into the 2032?

Nicholas (33:28.605)
So the goal, the rumors are that they want to have some form of trail running in the Olympics in 2032. And there's a lot of different opinions around that about what form it should be and not diluting it too much, making sure that it's still true trail running and doesn't just become a form of cross-country, which then should just be the sport that's chosen for the Olympics. But yeah, I think with these big dreams, it's this space of...

Kirstyn DeVries (33:40.341)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (33:44.192)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (33:49.408)
Mm-hmm.

Nicholas (33:57.56)
accepting that, I think, well, I want to say is like, what I work with my sports psychologist on is making when you have goals that are that big, then making a timeline that allows for them to happen. Cause I think it's so easy to say like, I need to do this now, but like take the Olympics is a really good example because it's, goes on quad cycles. Cause you, so you could say in these four years, I want to accomplish the things that would, that I know.

Kirstyn DeVries (34:20.29)
Mm-hmm.

Nicholas (34:26.671)
would then for the next four years mean I could be an Olympian. So that means I have to be like top 10 in the world on any given day. And so there's stretching out that timeline into actually taking these things that just feel like dreams and making them goals. I use, I think that time can be very helpful for that. So if I say like, want to, I have a,

like an ambassador career I want to live after I'm done being an athlete, realizing that that can happen when I retire and then drawing that out and then being like, okay, the things that I want to do as an athlete, I want to do in these 10 years. And it's, I think it's hard for people to think that long, but I think that broadening your scope like that can make you realize that actually maybe I could do this because like think of what happens in one year. So much can happen in a year. So yeah.

Kirstyn DeVries (34:56.514)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (35:05.815)
Yes.

Kirstyn DeVries (35:18.762)
Absolutely, yes. And so are you working with one of these big plans now where you've sort of taken a trajectory of 10 years and put it to paper and looked at how can you work towards those goals, even though maybe perhaps it sounds like you may have not been a super long-term visionary thinker in previous years, have you done something like this now that's more of like a visioning exercise with a 10-year plan?

Nicholas (35:42.78)
Yeah, I mean, I think I've always been dreaming really far away, but I think this year I've gotten a lot better of turning that into like, just putting pen to paper like you said, just having like a rough, like, it almost gives me peace having like a blueprint. Because you know it's not going to go just like that, but it feels really, so I have this year, and I have like, for me personally, I'm really interested in taking the next four years, like the next eight years of my life to be

Kirstyn DeVries (35:48.578)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (35:54.626)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (35:59.787)
Yes.

Nicholas (36:12.621)
best athlete I can possibly be while also advancing impact in international affairs in sports and outside of sports, but in ways that match each other. And then the next four years of my life, I'm really interested on having those sort of senior level appointments and roles that would take, would be fully, like you couldn't do anything else in reality. Yeah. And it's really helped me because I'm like, why? I more time than I think I do.

Kirstyn DeVries (36:14.879)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (36:37.801)
Yes. Wow.

Kirstyn DeVries (36:42.771)
Yeah, I think that I love that you haven't said, you know, I have to pick this one thing over the other. It was sort of this yes and, and looking at a way that you can keep afoot in the advocacy piece and be really effective in that while still racing. for our listeners, what's something that you're doing consistently and intentionally, but perhaps unseen that is driving your success?

Nicholas (37:10.523)
That's a good question. The pause.

Nicholas (37:17.179)
I mean...

Nicholas (37:21.753)
A lot of, a really transparent answer this year is that a lot of the work that I've been doing with the United Nations is in this space of pitching. And so it's really been a year of finding the right partners to pitch a really high level idea. So I'm working really closely with leadership at the human rights offices and

but that has still been a lot of partnership of like refining my ideas and giving it to them for something that they can really have, that they can really pitch to these high level partners. And so that's taken a lot of part, a lot of patience because it's, it's a lot of it is behind the scenes and a lot of it isn't seen. And I think some things that I do right now that just like keeps me going is that you is, you might be working towards something that isn't fully formed yet, but making these

Kirstyn DeVries (38:04.948)
Mm-hmm.

Nicholas (38:17.294)
this kind of commitment every day, every week, that that's part of what you do. And I think that it's the same thing with training. There's a lot of things people see that you don't do. And the reality is that it might take a really long time for it to be seen because it's not glamorous. It is consistency. It is that you're not getting injured. It is that you might be...

Kirstyn DeVries (38:30.357)
Yes.

Kirstyn DeVries (38:37.377)
Mm-hmm.

Nicholas (38:45.818)
need to work on your strengths or work on your speed or work on your recovery or work on your nutritional plan. And so for me, like the answer is that it's okay. You have to be kind of like confident in the that the little things turn into the big things. And yeah, I think like, I've been working with a nutritionist, I've been working with a sports psychologist, I don't talk a lot about either of those things. But in the long run, they do transform what people see. Or I've been

Kirstyn DeVries (39:02.241)
I love that.

Kirstyn DeVries (39:10.4)
Mm-hmm.

Nicholas (39:15.884)
Every email I get that's building my project up, I take a moment to celebrate it. Because it's just an email. But that is like, need to take those moments because you're building something that's gonna be so... The full vision of it will take a long time. So if you don't take those moments to celebrate what you're doing, you're really gonna get down on yourself. And burn yourself out. Yeah.

Kirstyn DeVries (39:20.971)
That's incredible.

Kirstyn DeVries (39:30.431)
Mm-hmm.

Kirstyn DeVries (39:34.837)
Yeah. I actually think that's great advice. was speaking with my partner earlier this year and we were saying that sometimes there are things that, you know, many of us don't celebrate when they're, they should be milestones that we take a moment to reflect on and even just thank ourselves. It may not mean we're opening a glass of wine and celebrating, you know, in that way, but I love that because it's acknowledgement.

Nicholas (39:53.305)
Yeah

Yeah, right. It could just be five minutes.

Kirstyn DeVries (40:00.761)
and I think that's incredible. I believe that, you know, lot of our listeners can, you know, take a moment to find something in their week where they can celebrate a little win. And I love that. now a question I ask all of our guests on the podcast, we're coming onto the last bit and I know that you've been doing so much purpose filled work. And so, this may be, you know, pick, pick your area that you'd like to focus on, but for you right now, Nicholas, what does purpose mean to you?

Nicholas (40:33.048)
Yeah, I think that like we were talking about this a little bit the other day, but I think that there's a lot of different ways to look at purpose. But I think I really mean this. think if you find what is authentically you and something that really lights you up, I think that you're experiencing your purpose.

It can change, and I think that's one thing you said that I love. Your purpose can change throughout your life, and it does. But I think, let's take sport for example, in a lot of ways it's incredibly selfish. It's all about just optimizing these little things that will allow you to move your body in ways other people cannot. And it just takes so, it's a lot of just about you.

Kirstyn DeVries (41:22.688)
Yeah.

Nicholas (41:26.839)
And it's about your recovery and your sleep and there's not, and you have to be, you can't do things or it will derail it. So there's a lot of, but what I think going where I'm going with this is that the purpose in this focus on something you love is that it actually does end up giving back. Just, and I said like, you know, one of things I believe is that like sport is a form of art. And I think it's that perfecting.

Kirstyn DeVries (41:34.101)
Yeah.

Kirstyn DeVries (41:46.977)
Mm.

Kirstyn DeVries (41:52.469)
Yeah.

Nicholas (41:54.082)
perfecting human movement until it becomes art. And then it gives back to people because it actually inspires people. So I think to the purpose point, you don't know how what you're doing will give back to people, but it will if you're following your essence. And that could be that you're taking care of somebody you love. That could be that you're perfecting this thing that you love and then it inspires other people to do the same thing.

It could be that you are, you know, working at a homeless shelter. It could be that all the different things, but I really think that purpose is about finding that essence because when you're trying to fake it, and not trying to fake it, a lot of us are often doing things that we have to do and that's life, but I think it's really easy to think we have to do more than what we love. And I think that if everyone did have

just was doing one thing that they loved constantly, it would be a lot better world.

Kirstyn DeVries (42:55.913)
Yeah, I love that. And I really resonate with that statement of like perfecting whatever it is that you're doing until it becomes an art. yes, he gave it in the sports analogy, but I love that could be applied broadly, right? It's people might be, you know, just pouring into them and their lifestyle and being a parent right now or being a teacher or, you know, growing a business or picking up a really big goal to fundraise for something or an idea like you have where you're

collaborating with an international government organization for wide reach that's going to be global. But right now it's still at the almost incubation and creation stage. I think that all of it is tied to the fact that if it's got movement, then eventually it begins to inspire. And I really love how you've articulated purpose and really, really strong analogy. Thank you, Nicholas.

Nicholas (43:32.939)
and.

Nicholas (43:44.523)
Yes.

Nicholas (43:52.264)
Thank you.

Kirstyn DeVries (43:52.447)
So if people want to follow your running journey, your advocacy journey, where can they go find you?

Nicholas (44:00.277)
Well, yeah, trying to build my brand. You can follow me on Instagram at turko underscore Nicholas. I think I got that right. I don't really use any other social media, but yeah, you can follow me on Instagram and I'll send it to you.

Kirstyn DeVries (44:15.646)
Yeah. And what's your next race as well for those that are looking to follow your running journey?

Nicholas (44:21.907)
Yeah, so next I'm going to be doing a qualifier in Switzerland and Trans-Montana. So the UTMB that I was talking about at the beginning of podcast, there's a 50k distance called the OCC, and I'm qualifying for that next year. And then I'm running the Golden Trail World Series Final in Trentino, Italy in October. That one will be the easiest to follow along, lots of media.

Kirstyn DeVries (44:45.856)
That is.

Kirstyn DeVries (44:49.394)
Really, really exciting. Well, I am so honored that we have met. I hope we get a few more runs in before I fly back to London this summer. Nicholas, thanks so much for sharing your journey and coming on today's podcast.

Nicholas (44:56.224)
Me too.